The lake of fire or Le lac de feu

[WhiteWings]

My conclusions are better than "spiritualGnosticbabble".

Do you deny the 1st death is a cessation of life?
The 2nd death is a death like the 1st death.

Until you show me some proof for that I classify that statement under: "spiritualGnosticbabble"
Until you, or anyone else, has no verse or parable to support your view then for me it's just a possibility.

``the second death" is not to be explained--it is itself the divine explanation of what is to be understood by the lake of fire. Let us never seek to explain God's explanations. We read of many things which are said to be second.

So basicly you say: "I don't know what the second death is; only God knows"?

What we agree on:
- The 1st death is the end of life.
- The 2nd death is the end of life.

What I still don't see proof for in your answers is:
- What type of life?
a] Physical?
b] Spiritual?
c] Sinful?
d] Combination. Please specify what combination.

Jesus said: Let the dead burry the dead. That to me means the Bible knows 2 types of death.
So I wonder what type we are speaking of in relation to the second death.

[Molly]

Twice dead--a prophecy?


11Woe to them! They have taken the way of Cain; they have rushed for profit into Balaam's error; they have been destroyed in Korah's rebellion.

12These men are blemishes at your love feasts, eating with you without the slightest qualm—shepherds who feed only themselves. They are clouds without rain, blown along by the wind; autumn trees, without fruit and uprooted—twice dead. 13They are wild waves of the sea, foaming up their shame; wandering stars, for whom blackest darkness has been reserved forever.

--Jude 1




You will be a restless wanderer on the earth."

13 Cain said to the LORD, "My punishment is more than I can bear. 14 Today you are driving me from the land, and I will be hidden from your presence; I will be a restless wanderer on the earth, and whoever finds me will kill me."

15 But the LORD said to him, "Not so  ; if anyone kills Cain, he will suffer vengeance seven times over." Then the LORD put a mark on Cain so that no one who found him would kill him. 16 So Cain went out from the LORD's presence and lived in the land of Nod,  east of Eden.

--Gen 4




[land of] "nod"
H5112
נד    נודּ
nôd  nôd
node, node
From H5110; exile: - wandering.

[Tony N]

quote author=WhiteWings link=topic=8145.msg96262#msg96262 date=1274279908]

My conclusions are better than "spiritualGnosticbabble".

Do you deny the 1st death is a cessation of life?
The 2nd death is a death like the 1st death.[/quote]

WW replied: Until you show me some proof for that I classify that statement under: "spiritualGnosticbabble"
Until you, or anyone else, has no verse or parable to support your view then for me it's just a possibility.

Look in the Scriptures yourself for a scripture. There are plenty. The first death all mankind experience is the death brought to us by Adam (Romans 5:12). It is not a spiritual death but a real death. Paul deals with this real death by telling us that God is going to give us immortality (un dying.)

Tony wrote: ``the second death" is not to be explained--it is itself the divine explanation of what is to be understood by the lake of fire. Let us never seek to explain God's explanations. We read of many things which are said to be second.

WW replied: So basicly you say: "I don't know what the second death is; only God knows"?

Tony's reply: No, I'm saying I do know what the 2nd death is. It is God's explanation of what the lake of fire is. The explanation is not to be explained away as something other than what it is.

WW wrote: What we agree on:
- The 1st death is the end of life.
- The 2nd death is the end of life.

What I still don't see proof for in your answers is:
- What type of life?
a] Physical?
b] Spiritual?
c] Sinful?
d] Combination. Please specify what combination.

Tony's reply:
a. Literal death is the end of literal physical life.
b. Figurative death (misnamed "spiritual death") is the end of figurative life i.e., when the law killed Paul, that was not a literal death but a figurative death. It put an end of his ability to live under the law in such a way he could do the law.
Sinful death? I don't know what that is in the Scriptures.

WW wrote: Jesus said: Let the dead burry the dead. That to me means the Bible knows 2 types of death.
So I wonder what type we are speaking of in relation to the second death.

That's right. Two types of death Jesus spoke of: figurative and literal. Both are a cessation of life. Both are death, not life.

If the lake of fire is some sort of purifying agent to make man acceptable to God why does it cause death? If it caused spiritual death then it makes mankind unfit for God. If it causes physical death then the people still are not useful to God until resurrected.

Did the 1st death all mankind experience make man fit for God? No.
Therefore the 2nd death, being like the 1st does not make man fit for God.

The only way mankind will be rescued from death to be acceptable to God is by what Christ did on the cross and in his burial and resurrection.
The only way mankind will be rescued from the 2nd death is through death being destroyed AFTER Christ quits reigning and AFTER all sovereignty, authority and power are annulled (1 Cor.15:22-28).

[WhiteWings]

I didn't quote/answer your other replies because I think this part is really what it's at. Just to let you know I did see your replies.

WW wrote: Jesus said: Let the dead burry the dead. That to me means the Bible knows 2 types of death.
So I wonder what type we are speaking of in relation to the second death.

That's right. Two types of death Jesus spoke of: figurative and literal. Both are a cessation of life. Both are death, not life.

So you agree there are 2 types of life. Doesn't that automaticly mean there are also 2 types of death?
Note: I wrote "types" Not 1st or second.

If the lake of fire is some sort of purifying agent to make man acceptable to God why does it cause death? If it caused spiritual death then it makes mankind unfit for God. If it causes physical death then the people still are not useful to God until resurrected.

Agreed. In the previous post I used a term "Sinful death" Not very clear I admit. What if I call it "The death of sin"?
So what if the LoF does not kill the body or spirit. But does kill sin.

[Molly]

I guess my conclusion is that as Adam died spiritually first [eyes opened, felt shame, kicked out of the garden], and physically second [900+years later], that process is reversed in Jesus--raised spiritually first [which will never die] and then physically [in the better/first resurrection].

These will not be hurt by the second death which is the lake of fire--because the process will be finished for them.

But the rest are hurt by the second death--  Ah, because the rest are raised physically first--they are still spiritually dead.


12And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

--Rev 20

[Tony N]

I didn't quote/answer your other replies because I think this part is really what it's at. Just to let you know I did see your replies.

WW wrote: Jesus said: Let the dead bury the dead. That to me means the Bible knows 2 types of death.
So I wonder what type we are speaking of in relation to the second death.

That's right. Two types of death Jesus spoke of: figurative and literal. Both are a cessation of life. Both are death, not life.

WW replied: So you agree there are 2 types of life. Doesn't that automaticly mean there are also 2 types of death?
Note: I wrote "types" Not 1st or second.

Tony's reply: Well, one can be alive to God while alive and dead to God while alive. If there are two types of death, and there are, the figurative death (i.e. dead to God) is the abscence of life to God and the literal death is the absence of life. If they are not in the book of *life* then they are to enter into the absence of life i.e. death via the medium of fire (the fire which is not God because God is not death but life and peace).

If the lake of fire is some sort of purifying agent to make man acceptable to God why does it cause death? If it caused spiritual death then it makes mankind unfit for God. If it causes physical death then the people still are not useful to God until resurrected.

WW replied: Agreed. In the previous post I used a term "Sinful death" Not very clear I admit. What if I call it "The death of sin"?
So what if the LoF does not kill the body or spirit. But does kill sin.

Tony's reply: It doesn't say "sin is cast into the lake of fire." "Sin" is not a "who" in "whoever" but an "it."

[WhiteWings]

That's right. Two types of death Jesus spoke of: figurative and literal. Both are a cessation of life. Both are death, not life.

WW replied: So you agree there are 2 types of life. Doesn't that automaticly mean there are also 2 types of death?
Note: I wrote "types" Not 1st or second.

Tony's reply: Well, one can be alive to God while alive and dead to God while alive. If there are two types of death, and there are, the figurative death (i.e. dead to God) is the abscence of life to God and the literal death is the absence of life. If they are not in the book of *life* then they are to enter into the absence of life i.e. death via the medium of fire (the fire which is not God because God is not death but life and peace).

The way I see it I'm in no way suggesting that. IF LoF is about cleaning then for me LoF can be Father.
He is not death. In fact killing sin means rebirth/awakening of a clean spirit. And that's life. So from that pov LoF kills 1 and revives another thing. Does killing sin make Father a God of death? IMO certainly not.

If the lake of fire is some sort of purifying agent to make man acceptable to God why does it cause death? If it caused spiritual death then it makes mankind unfit for God. If it causes physical death then the people still are not useful to God until resurrected.

Agreed. In the previous post I used a term "Sinful death" Not very clear I admit. What if I call it "The death of sin"?
So what if the LoF does not kill the body or spirit. But does kill sin.

Tony's reply: It doesn't say "sin is cast into the lake of fire." "Sin" is not a "who" in "whoever" but an "it."

True. I see man more like a package deal. The 3 part package (body, spirit, sin)
The sin gets washed/burned/teached away.


Closing remark.
The above is the way that aligns scripture as I understand it. I'm very aware my opinion may change. I'm open to new views.
Maybe it's you, Tony, that changes that view. But until now, how correct you might be, I didn't see that "Eureka!" in your answers. Yet :icon_jokercolor:

[Tony N]

Tony's reply: Well, one can be alive to God while alive and dead to God while alive. If there are two types of death, and there are, the figurative death (i.e. dead to God) is the abscence of life to God and the literal death is the absence of life. If they are not in the book of *life* then they are to enter into the absence of life i.e. death via the medium of fire (the fire which is not God because God is not death but life and peace).

WW wrote: The way I see it I'm in no way suggesting that. IF LoF is about cleaning then for me LoF can be Father.
He is not death. In fact killing sin means rebirth/awakening of a clean spirit. And that's life. So from that pov LoF kills 1 and revives another thing. Does killing sin make Father a God of death? IMO certainly not.

The bible doesn't say the lake of fire is for cleaning. If anything, if it were, it would be for cleaning the new earth of dead bodies to keep down disease.
Now you are saying the Lake of fire can be Father. But God already told us what the lake of fire is: the second death. God is not the second Father. Death is not the Father. You have to stop with what God says the lake of fire is. You can't continue ad infinitum telling us it is death but death is this and this is that and that is this and so on and so on. It is just said to be death and we have to leave it at that. Death is the absence of life. We have to leave it at what God says it is.

Tony's reply: It doesn't say "sin is cast into the lake of fire." "Sin" is not a "who" in "whoever" but an "it."

WW replied: True. I see man more like a package deal. The 3 part package (body, spirit, sin)
The sin gets washed/burned/teached away.

Tony's reply:
The Bible informs us that man is composed of body, soul and spirit not body, sin and spirit.
The Bible also informs us that the only way sin is dealt with completely is via the death, burial and resurection of Christ. If the lake of fire does that then it lessens what Christ did for mankind on the cross.

You can't teach a dead man new tricks. Go to the morgue and preach to the dead and see how many you get to understand the evangel.
No where does it say or even intimate that the lake of fire is to teach people. I realize that is a popular notion by a friend of mine who wrote a book on the lake of fire and said they were to learn there, but I think it is safer to stick with what God says the lake of fire is. It is death, the absence of life.

WW wrote: Closing remark.
The above is the way that aligns scripture as I understand it. I'm very aware my opinion may change. I'm open to new views.
Maybe it's you, Tony, that changes that view. But until now, how correct you might be, I didn't see that "Eureka!" in your answers. Yet

I fail to see how your understanding aligns scripture. It seems to me it misaligns it. You can't make death life.
Isaiah 5:20-21 KJV  Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!  (21)  Woe unto them that are wise in their own eyes, and prudent in their own sight!

Woe to them who call death, life.

[CHB]

Now you are saying the Lake of fire can be Father. But God already told us what the lake of fire is: the second death.

Hi Tony, me again,

I see this to mean, the second death is what the lake of fire produces, not that the lof "is" the second death. Define what the word "is" is.  :laughing7:

Seriously though, I see the lof not as death but it destroys the dead. All those who are thrown in it are already dead spiritually. If the spiritually dead are thrown into the lof, isn't that the death of death? Only life will remain. The lof doesn't create death but destroys it, so that those who were dead are made alive. 


You said that people would be resurrected, judged, thrown into the lof, or burned up. Will these people be resurrected again and what will happen to them once they are resurrected? Will they be changed into immortal immediately upon being resurrected? Was this their punishment for sins?  What was it all for?

CHB

[eaglesway]

I have some questions. If Adam was immortal before he ate of the tree and was banished from the garden, was their time in the garden? If there was no time what were the "days" of creation. If their was time, how was Adam immortal? Is immortality a condition of eternity? If their was no corruption before the fall, what was the state of being in which Adam existed as a living soul, previous to the fall? Did Adam die when he ate by coming under the rule of death? Was his nakedness the absence of the glory of God? Is physical death the only cessation of life? Can someone be dead even as they live? Could death a state of being rather than a cessation of being? Let the dead bury the dead!

[WhiteWings]

Woe to them who call death, life.

If that summarizes how you see my last few posts then I have no hope you will ever understand what I tried to say :sigh:

[WhiteWings]

the second death is what the lake of fire produces, not that the lof "is"

:thumbsup:

Seriously though, I see the lof not as death but it destroys the dead. All those who are thrown in it are already dead spiritually. If the spiritually dead are thrown into the lof, isn't that the death of death? Only life will remain.

I see LoF a reveiling the inner life by stripping of the outer death/sinful nature

The lof doesn't create death but destroys it,

Yep. Removes it like a fullars soap. 

[micah7:9]

I have some questions. If Adam was immortal before he ate of the tree and was banished from the garden, was their time in the garden? If there was no time what were the "days" of creation. If their was time, how was Adam immortal? Is immortality a condition of eternity? If their was no corruption before the fall, what was the state of being in which Adam existed as a living soul, previous to the fall? Did Adam die when he ate by coming under the rule of death? Was his nakedness the absence of the glory of God? Is physical death the only cessation of life? Can someone be dead even as they live? Could death a state of being rather than a cessation of being? Let the dead bury the dead!

Have you my friend and brother been reading my mail? Should I hit a key in my mind from LOF I find myself engulfed in those very questions. Peace and Love

[Cardinal]

I see this to mean, the second death is what the lake of fire produces, not that the lof "is" the second death.

:cloud9:This is what I was seeing; the ACT OF throwing things in the LOF is the second death, not the LOF itself being death. Blessings...

[Tony N]

I see this to mean, the second death is what the lake of fire produces, not that the lof "is" the second death.

:cloud9:This is what I was seeing; the ACT OF throwing things in the LOF is the second death, not the LOF itself being death. Blessings...

And some people see the virgin Mary is a pancake.

The Bible says the lake of fire produces death. Death is the complete absence of life.

The bible does not say the act of throwing those not in the book of life into the lake of fire is the second death. Your imagination is running away. It just says the lake of fire is the second death (period).

Remember, death is the absence of life.

[Tony N]

Woe to them who call death, life.

If that summarizes how you see my last few posts then I have no hope you will ever understand what I tried to say :sigh:

If that summarizes what you think of what I said concerning everything else I wrote besides quoting Isaiah as to those who call light, darkness and day, night and death, life then I have no hope you will ever understand what I tried to say :sigh:

[chuckt]

I see this to mean, the second death is what the lake of fire produces, not that the lof "is" the second death.

:cloud9:This is what I was seeing; the ACT OF throwing things in the LOF is the second death, not the LOF itself being death. Blessings...

And some people see the virgin Mary is a pancake.

The Bible says the lake of fire produces death. Death is the complete absence of life.

The bible does not say the act of throwing those not in the book of life into the lake of fire is the second death. Your imagination is running away. It just says the lake of fire is the second death (period).

Remember, death is the absence of life.

Greetings Tony,

interesting thread, i would like you take on this;

Rev 14:10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

thanks

jeans friend chuck

[Tony N]

I have some questions. If Adam was immortal before he ate of the tree and was banished from the garden, was their time in the garden? If there was no time what were the "days" of creation. If their was time, how was Adam immortal? Is immortality a condition of eternity? If their was no corruption before the fall, what was the state of being in which Adam existed as a living soul, previous to the fall? Did Adam die when he ate by coming under the rule of death? Was his nakedness the absence of the glory of God? Is physical death the only cessation of life? Can someone be dead even as they live? Could death a state of being rather than a cessation of being? Let the dead bury the dead!

Hi eaglesway, good questions.
Was there time in the garden? Yes. There was night and day and the sun and stars were for the marking out of times and seasons for Adam and Eve.

Adam was not dead while he was alive. He still talked with God after they sinned. The Hebrew of dying imposed on Adam was: "to die shall you be dying." It is the process of dying "until you return to the ground from which you came."

I don't believe Adam had immortality because God witheld Adam from the tree of life "lest he eat of it and live for the eon." So the best he could do was to live for the duration of that eon. As it turns out, he did pretty good by living around 900 some years but died before the eon ended.

Can someone be dead while they are living? Yes.
Look at the widow of 1Timothy 5:6 "Yet she who is a prodigal, though living, is dead." The elipsis to be supplied after the word "dead" is "to God." She was prodigalling or spending freely and foolishly showing no need for God. So even though by all outward appearances she may have put on a fair face in the flesh by going to church and singing the songs and saying all the right things, she was in fact dead to God. Notice the widow in 1Timothy 5:5: "Now one really a widow, and alone, relies on God and is remaining in petitions and prayers night and day." See how she is alive to God? She relies on God. She has no money like the prodigalling widow. She is in prayers night and day and petitions.

You ask: "Could death [be] a state of being rather than a cessation of being? Let the dead bury the dead!

Death, figurative death, per the above is like the widow who has no need of God and is not concerned about the will of God. It is not a cessation of being but rather a cessation of being about the Father's business and thus being dead to doing God's will.

[WhiteWings]

Woe to them who call death, life.

If that summarizes how you see my last few posts then I have no hope you will ever understand what I tried to say :sigh:

If that summarizes what you think of what I said concerning everything else I wrote besides quoting Isaiah as to those who call light, darkness and day, night and death, life then I have no hope you will ever understand what I tried to say :sigh:

I know exactly what you said. I also exactly know how you avoid questions and twist answers.
Look I don't blame you for having no answers but please don't act as if you them.

[Tony N]

I see this to mean, the second death is what the lake of fire produces, not that the lof "is" the second death.

:cloud9:This is what I was seeing; the ACT OF throwing things in the LOF is the second death, not the LOF itself being death. Blessings...

And some people see the virgin Mary is a pancake.

The Bible says the lake of fire produces death. Death is the complete absence of life.

The bible does not say the act of throwing those not in the book of life into the lake of fire is the second death. Your imagination is running away. It just says the lake of fire is the second death (period).

Remember, death is the absence of life.

Greetings Tony,

interesting thread, i would like you take on this;

Rev 14:10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

thanks

jeans friend chuck

Here is something interesting on the verse you brought up:

"Conversely, a good example of literal fire and death is given to us in the Unveiling, in the destruction of the great city of Babylon. It is only during the fall of Babylon that the worshipers of the wild beast and its image will be subjected to torment in fire and sulphur. These alone are concerned in this judgment. Though this may involve many individuals, together they comprise only a tiny percentage of all humanity. In the hour when judgment comes upon the city, a great conflagration will ensue. Once ignited, the fire of the city will continue to burn until it is "burned up" (Rev.18:8), when nothing but ashes remain.

     "We know that subterranean coal beds may smoulder for centuries; that is, they burn with little smoke and no flame. But this could not be said of the ashes of the city! Hence no literal fumes are in view here, where we read that "the fumes of their torment are ascending...." (Rev.14:11). "Fumes" is a figure of speech, as is "drinking of the wine" (of the fury of God) and "blended undiluted in the cup" (of His indignation) (Rev.14:10). Like literal fumes which are the product of fire, the destruction of Babylon which is the product of God's judgment upon its inhabitants, will constitute the figurative "fumes"—that is, the associated evidence—which will be "ascending for the eons of the eons." This "ascending," since it is the ascending of figurative fumes, is figurative itself as well. Like smoke, which testifies to its existence when it ascends high into the air, the destruction and death which occurred at Babylon will be exceedingly widely known and attested to throughout the entire world, even "for the eons of the eons."
James Coram, Unsearchable Riches, vol.84, p.75

"The `fumes...ascending for the eons of the eons' (Rev.14:11) is a figure of speech similar to the one used in Jude 7, `a specimen...[of] the justice of fire eonian.' When sulphur and fire rained from the heavens on Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities about them, the inhabitants were killed and the fumes ascended from the land (Gen.19:28). This event is well remembered. The Israelitish worshipers of the wild beast are the supreme sinners of mankind. They have no rest day and night while they are worshiping the wild beast and its image and shall be tormented until they die (Rev.14:9-12; 16:2,8,9; 18:8), some of them by the blade (19:21). Their fate will be remembered through the eons of the eons."
  A. E. Knoch, Unsearchable Riches, vol.66, p.143.

[Tony N]

Woe to them who call death, life.

If that summarizes how you see my last few posts then I have no hope you will ever understand what I tried to say :sigh:

If that summarizes what you think of what I said concerning everything else I wrote besides quoting Isaiah as to those who call light, darkness and day, night and death, life then I have no hope you will ever understand what I tried to say :sigh:

I know exactly what you said. I also exactly know how you avoid questions and twist answers.
Look I don't blame you for having no answers but please don't act as if you them.

:happygrin: :laughing7: :happy3: :happygrin: :laughing7:
LOL! He he!, Okey dokey! Whatever! LOL!

[eaglesway]

Hi Tony,
    Those were pretty good answers to my questions. Concerning Adam then, are you saying he did not have immortality before he ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil? If I misunderstand clarify.  To me(in the attitude of interesting discussions -not one of establishing doctrine), if Adam died because he ate, he was immortal before he ate,else-what did he lose? what the penalty? Also, some of the conclusions to be drawn from those answers are interesting as well. If there was time before Adam died then some of the general assumptions about eternity may be incorrect, such as that eternity is the absolute absence of time, totally transcending time, because if Adam was created with the power of endless life, but lost it when he ate, & there was no death UNTIL he ate-yeeesh :o), I am just always interested in the relationships between time and eternity and the transitions between them. Later, John

[Tony N]

Now you are saying the Lake of fire can be Father. But God already told us what the lake of fire is: the second death.

Hi Tony, me again,

I see this to mean, the second death is what the lake of fire produces, not that the lof "is" the second death. Define what the word "is" is.  :laughing7:

Seriously though, I see the lof not as death but it destroys the dead. All those who are thrown in it are already dead spiritually. If the spiritually dead are thrown into the lof, isn't that the death of death? Only life will remain. The lof doesn't create death but destroys it, so that those who were dead are made alive. 

Tony's reply:
Hi CHB, glad you are still involved in this thread. You bring some interesting thoughts to the table.
Was the first death the death of death? When Abe Lincoln died was it the end of death for him? When Christ died on the cross, was that death life for Him? If it was then there really was no sacrifice. The only time the death of death occurs is when death is abolished after Christ quits reigning and all sovereignty, authority and power are done away (see 1 Cor.15:22-28).

You said that people would be resurrected, judged, thrown into the lof, or burned up. Will these people be resurrected again and what will happen to them once they are resurrected? Will they be changed into immortal immediately upon being resurrected? Was this their punishment for sins?  What was it all for?

CHB

Yes, all held by the second death will be resurrected from that death when Christ quits reigning and all sovereignty, authority and power is done away. (see 1 Cor.15:22-28).
They will put on immortality and incorruption when that occurs and will be made righteous and have their lives justified.
I think when they stand before their Saviour on the great white throne and see the miracle of their being brought out of the 1st death will be such an overwhelming thing for them. They will all be judged or set right at that point in time as they stand before the GWT. But since they are not in the book of life God must do something with them, and that is to once again give them a cessation of life. God does not want the dead fouling up His new earth for the eon. Heck, even believers experience death for what they do (see 1 Cor.11:27-30). Some of those believers have been dead for about 2000 years. But to them, the next waking moment it will seem like only a split second has passed.

Remember, death is an enemy: "1 Cor.15:26  The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
Death is not a friend. It does not allow us to learn about God while in death.

You ask: "What is it all for?" Do you mean "what is death for?" Or do you mean "why resurrect all those people, judge them and send them back into death?"

[Tony N]

Hi Tony,
    Those were pretty good answers to my questions. Concerning Adam then, are you saying he did not have immortality before he ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil? If I misunderstand clarify.  To me(in the attitude of interesting discussions -not one of establishing doctrine), if Adam died because he ate, he was immortal before he ate,else-what did he lose? what the penalty?

Good questions. If he has immortality before he ate of the forbidden fruit, would that fruit has caused mortality? When we put on immortality, if we drink any poison or a poisonous snake bite us it will do us no harm, right? But, man, that is a good question! I think the penalty was a package deal: 1. Get thrown out of your home (i.e. the garden) 2. Get a job and make a living (i.e. work at farming and deal with weeds and thorns by the sweat of your brow) 3. Have labor in child bearing 4. have kids that can't get along and on top of all that, have the process of dying operating in you till your return to the soil.

Also, some of the conclusions to be drawn from those answers are interesting as well. If there was time before Adam died then some of the general assumptions about eternity may be incorrect, such as that eternity is the absolute absence of time, totally transcending time, because if Adam was created with the power of endless life, but lost it when he ate, & there was no death UNTIL he ate-yeeesh :o), I am just always interested in the relationships between time and eternity and the transitions between them. Later, John

The eons or Olams (Hebrew) mark out time. I think it was Peter that said there were eons (plural) before. That means there was the eon prior to  the flood (the eon in which Adam lived) and an eon before that. I believe the eon before the flood was between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2. Before Genesis 1:1 I don't think there was time because there were no celestial things like sun, moon and stars to mark out the time.

[Molly]

God does not want the dead fouling up His new earth for the eon.

They are there,-- they are just kept out of the holy city.


15For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.
--Rev 22