The Lake of Fire and the Cross

[Molly]

 37 They were surprised and terrified. They thought they were seeing a ghost.

38 Jesus said to them, "Why are you troubled? Why do you have doubts in your minds? 39 Look at my hands and my feet. It is really I! Touch me and see. A ghost does not have a body or bones. But you can see that I do."

40 After he said that, he showed them his hands and feet. 41 But they still did not believe it. They were amazed and filled with joy.

--Luke 24





20For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ:

21Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.

--PHil 3



[Who] "shall change" [our vile body]

G3345
μετασχηματίζω
metaschēmatizō
met-askh-ay-mat-id'-zo
From G3326 and a derivative of G4976; to transfigure or disguise; figuratively to apply (by accommodation): - transfer, transform (self).




When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

--2 Thess 1:10



1 John 3:2
Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

[Chris]

Molly, is your post directed to me? If so, cam you give me a clue as to why you posted those verses? Do you think I disagree with any of them?  :dontknow:

[Molly]

Molly, is your post directed to me? If so, cam you give me a clue as to why you posted those verses? Do you think I disagree with any of them?  :dontknow:

It was directed at me, to confirm my belief that we will receive glorified bodies--that's what I believe.  I'm thinking now that it will happen all at once, [what others call the rapture], as he appears in his saints, the second time unto salvation.

Do you disagree with this?  I don't know.  I tend to be very literal.  I'm thinking this is the first resurrection.  Do you disagree? lol


And we, who with unveiled faces all reflect the Lord's glory, are being transformed into his likeness with ever-increasing glory, which comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit.
2 Corinthians 3:18 

[Chris]

It was directed at me, to confirm my belief that we will receive glorified bodies--that's what I believe.  I'm thinking now that it will happen all at once, [what others call the rapture], as he appears in his saints, the second time unto salvation.

So what do you believe it means that He will appear "IN" His saints? That it will not be a physical manifestation, but His saints will be given glorified bodies all at once? And remain on earth? Or be raptured away somewhere?

Do you disagree with this?  I don't know.  I tend to be very literal.  I'm thinking this is the first resurrection.  Do you disagree? lol

No, I see the first resurrection as already discussed. I see it according to a spiritual truth, as it relates to us, but it is "seen" (physically) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ (and those whom He raised from the dead).

And we, who with unveiled faces all reflect the Lord's glory, are being transformed into his likeness with ever-increasing glory, which comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit.
2 Corinthians 3:18

I agree that we are changed into His image by the spirit - from glory to glory. But I believe that "as He is so are we in this world".

To me, it's all about Christ being formed IN US, so that we can be "delivered of the child" (ie "saved in childbearing") and receive "the adoption of sons". As it is those who are led by the spirit (not the "babes" and "little children", who are "yet carnal") who are "sons of God". I don't believe that we have to die physically and/or be resurrected physically to enter into the kingdom of God, we can only see it and enter into it by faith. I believe we do that now/here.

If you tend to see things literally, then how do compare spiritual things with spiritual by looking upon those things that are NOT seen? What is your understanding of what Paul meant by that?

[whyiloveitaly.com]

To begin, let's consider three verses:

1Cor 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

1Cor 15:26   The last enemy [that] shall be destroyed [is] death.

2Tim 1:10 But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:

It is through the death and resurrection of Christ that death itself will be destroyed.

Now another verse:

Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

Here we read that death will be destroyed in the lake of fire. Do we then have a contradiction between this verse that says that death will be destroyed in fire and the others that say that death will be destroyed via the death and resurrection of Christ? No, for the fire and the Cross are one and the same:

"I came to send fire on the earth, and how I wish it were already kindled!
"But I have a baptism to be baptized with, and how distressed I am till it is accomplished! (Luke 12:49-50).

By way of parallelism, Jesus identifies his death on the Cross as His baptism (Matt. 20:22) of fire. John the Baptist, you'll recall, prophesied of the coming fiery baptism in terms of judgment upon sin (Matt. 3:10-12). It is the baptismal fire of Christ that consumes all that is not fit for the Kingdom of God. The Cross accomplishes exactly the same thing, for Jesus bore the sin of the world in judgment, and it is through Christ's death that sin will be done away with.

The Lake of the Fire is the Cross; the second death is the death of the second Adam, in which we must partake in order to die to the flesh and be raised incorruptible.

"Jesus death is His baptism." Thank you for this clarification Samuel! I can believe what you are saying is true.

I wonder if every man's death is also a type of personal baptism??

Thoughts?

Blessings,
brian

[micah7:9]

Eph. 2:15
(ASV)  having abolished in the flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; that he might create in himself of the two one new man, so making peace;

(CLV) (the enmity in His flesh), nullifying the law of precepts in decrees, that He should be creating the two, in Himself, into one new humanity, making peace;"

(KJV)  Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;

(Rotherham)  The enmity, in his flesh—the law of commandments in decrees—bringing to nought,—that, the two, he might create in himself, into one man of new mould, making peace.

(RYLT-NT)  the enmity{hostility} in his flesh, the law of the commands in ordinances having done away, that the two he might create in himself into one new man, making peace,

(WNT)  by setting aside the Law with its commandments, expressed, as they were, in definite decrees. His design was to unite the two sections of humanity in Himself so as to form one new man,

(YLT)  the enmity in his flesh, the law of the commands in ordinances having done away, that the two he might create in himself into one new man, making peace,

Peace G1515
i-rah'-nay
Probably from a primary verb εἴρω eirō (to join); peace (literally or figuratively); by implication prosperity: - one, peace, quietness, rest, + set at one again.

[Molly]

So what do you believe it means that He will appear "IN" His saints? That it will not be a physical manifestation, but His saints will be given glorified bodies all at once? And remain on earth? Or be raptured away somewhere?

I am still keeping an open mind on this, but I am becoming more and more convicted that it will be a sudden thing and that, when it happens, we will be like him--instantly--both spiritually and physically [glorified body].  I'm not saying I will live to see this.

In the meantime, we aspire to be like him [spiritually] and we become more like him in ever increasing glory through the work of the HS.  But in this life it's never a complete work--growing up to the fulness of Christ.  I look around and can see some who are more like Christ than others, but I have never seen HIM in other people--just glimpses of him.

If you tend to see things literally, then how do compare spiritual things with spiritual by looking upon those things that are NOT seen? What is your understanding of what Paul meant by that?

I take it literally.lol  I'm able to compare spiritual with spiritual.  What did he mean?  Anyone who has read literature understands what he meant.  One thing can be a metaphor or an analogy or a spiritual representation of another thing.  And then we use that fact to make comparisons of one thing to another.

[jabcat]

I am becoming more and more convicted that it will be a sudden thing and that, when it happens, we will be like him--instantly--both spiritually and physically [glorified body].  I'm not saying I will live to see this.

In the meantime, we aspire to be like him [spiritually] and we become more like him in ever increasing glory through the work of the HS.  But in this life it's never a complete work--growing up to the fulness of Christ.  I look around and can see some who are more like Christ than others, but I have never seen HIM in other people--just glimpses of him.

I think much of what's being shared by Chris and all can fit together in the big picture (some details to be revealed  :bigGrin:).  Your quote above is very much the way I understand it too, Molly.  IMO, there won't be any guessing.  It will be miraculous and apparent to all.  We will be changed, in the twinkling of an eye - as mortality puts on immortality.  I know there are variances in opinion regarding His coming(s), but I believe He will be apparent and apparent in us - however He comes, He will come.   :thumbsup:

[Chris]

I take it literally.lol  I'm able to compare spiritual with spiritual.  What did he mean?  Anyone who has read literature understands what he meant.  One thing can be a metaphor or an analogy or a spiritual representation of another thing.  And then we use that fact to make comparisons of one thing to another.

So is that like those who claim that "anyone who can read can understand what the bible says"? It's "so easy" to understand, in fact, that if you don't agree "with me" you must be demon possessed or just have itchy ears or maybe just be plain stupid?   :dontknow:

[Molly]

I take it literally.lol  I'm able to compare spiritual with spiritual.  What did he mean?  Anyone who has read literature understands what he meant.  One thing can be a metaphor or an analogy or a spiritual representation of another thing.  And then we use that fact to make comparisons of one thing to another.

So is that like those who claim that "anyone who can read can understand what the bible says"? It's "so easy" to understand, in fact, that if you don't agree "with me" you must be demon possessed or just have itchy ears or maybe just be plain stupid?   :dontknow:

huh? no, lol

example:

1 Corinthians 10:4
And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

We can use that to compare others uses of the word, rock.

And on this rock  I will build my church...

[Samuel Cripps]

I started thinking along these lines (that the second death is dying with Jesus) in 1997, when Revelation 20:14 caught my attention and got me thinking.

Unfortunately, our brother Scott (pneuma) is accusing me of stealing his thoughts after he recently read the OP of this thread (which I posted on another forum where he is a member).  I even showed Scott a thread I started in 2004 where I expressed these same thoughts, and he still accuses me of plagiarizing him.  Oh well...

[eaglesway]

The Holy Spirit is the teacher, He speaks to any who will hear. When we think it is "our idea" or that God chose us "first" to say anything, we are walking in presumption and vain-glory.

[Samuel Cripps]

The Holy Spirit is the teacher, He speaks to any who will hear. When we think it is "our idea" or that God chose us "first" to say anything, we are walking in presumption and vain-glory.

Amen!