The Lake of Fire and the Cross

[Samuel Cripps]

To begin, let's consider three verses:

1Cor 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

1Cor 15:26   The last enemy [that] shall be destroyed [is] death.

2Tim 1:10 But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:

It is through the death and resurrection of Christ that death itself will be destroyed.

Now another verse:

Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

Here we read that death will be destroyed in the lake of fire. Do we then have a contradiction between this verse that says that death will be destroyed in fire and the others that say that death will be destroyed via the death and resurrection of Christ? No, for the fire and the Cross are one and the same:

"I came to send fire on the earth, and how I wish it were already kindled!
"But I have a baptism to be baptized with, and how distressed I am till it is accomplished! (Luke 12:49-50).

By way of parallelism, Jesus identifies his death on the Cross as His baptism (Matt. 20:22) of fire. John the Baptist, you'll recall, prophesied of the coming fiery baptism in terms of judgment upon sin (Matt. 3:10-12). It is the baptismal fire of Christ that consumes all that is not fit for the Kingdom of God. The Cross accomplishes exactly the same thing, for Jesus bore the sin of the world in judgment, and it is through Christ's death that sin will be done away with.

The Lake of the Fire is the Cross; the second death is the death of the second Adam, in which we must partake in order to die to the flesh and be raised incorruptible.

[WhiteWings]

I need a little help Samuel.
Bit more explantion please.

Didn't Jesus get His baptism of fire when the dove/HS decended from heaven when He was baptized?

[Samuel Cripps]

I need a little help Samuel.
Bit more explantion please.

Didn't Jesus get His baptism of fire when the dove/HS decended from heaven when He was baptized?

Justin Martyr and other ancient writers did indeed attest to a baptism of light/fire when John baptized Jesus in the Jordan.  I think that Christ's baptism by John was a foreshadowing of Christ's won sacrificial death on the cross.

Please ask me more questions if you need clarification.

[WhiteWings]

Maybe a good night sleep will help too. It's 19:23 here and I'm half asleep  :thumbdown:

[Samuel Cripps]

What happened to that email that was posted?  It looked really interesting, but I didn't get a chance to read it.

[Taffy]

A email from a sister some two yrs back-

To me, being that there are TWO ADAMS/MEN (the FIRST and the LAST, also called THE SECOND MAN) that ALL MEN are "summed up" into, there are TWO DEATHS that ALL MEN are baptized into.... The FIRST being that DEATH which is the penalty FOR SIN (wrought through the FIRST ADAM) and the SECOND being that DEATH OF DEATH (LIFE) that all men have also been baptized into.... the DEATH of THE SECOND MAN (LAST ADAM) Jesus Christ, which is (to me), THE SECOND DEATH.

So what is the second death, as it relates to the death of Jesus Christ and the death of death?

We know that death and hell give up the dead that in them and they are cast INTO THE LAKE OF FIRE. And we know that those whose names are not written in the Lamb's book of life are cast INTO THE LAKE OF FIRE. Right?

When did that happen if not at the death of Jesus Christ (the SECOND MAN) on the cross?

Christ said: "I am come to send fire on the earth" (Luke 12:49)

And in the book of Hebrews we read:

Heb 9:24-28 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us: Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others; For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself. And as it is appointed unto men ONCE TO DIE, **BUT AFTER THIS** THE JUDGMENT: So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.


How many times have I heard people quote "it is appointed unto men once to die and after this the judgment" to say that it is not until after men die (physically) that judgment comes. But is that what this passage is talking about? Or it is talking about THE DEATH OF JESUS CHRIST, specifically? Who came ONCE TO DIE (as it is appointed unto men) and ***AFTER THIS*** THE JUDGMENT?

So that ***NOW*** is THE JUDGMENT of this world and ***NOW*** is the day of salvation?

Having been baptized into HIS DEATH we must strive, as did Paul, TO KNOW the power OF HIS RESURRECTION!!


Rom 6:3-8 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection: Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. For he that is dead is freed from sin. Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:


:icon_flower:

[Samuel Cripps]

I'm curious as to how this sits with other CUs.  What do you make of the idea that the lake of fire and Cross represent the same power?

[Samuel Cripps]

The 19th century Universalist preacher, Samuel Hutchinson, had a book published in 1827 wherein he wrote the following:

And as the death of righteousness by the first Adam was the first spiritual death, so the death of sin by the death of the second Adam (Christ) is the second spiritual death. And as the Book of Revelation is a vision representing spiritual things by figures, and as that is the only book in the Bible where the term " second death" occurs, therefore I conlude that the death of sin is the "second death" mentioned four times only, in the book of Revelation. And as we are told in Rev. 20:14 and  21:8 that "the lake of fire and brimstone is the second death," and as these are figurative representations of some spiritual process, I shall therefore briefly show what these figures represent, and how their process performs the death of sin, which is the " second death."

:thumbsup:

[PaoloNuevo]

Well, as Andrew Jukes would say

Death is necessary for us to live to God.. and even if Death is the condemnation of the Law even THAT isn't the end of the Lord.. the Lord kills to make alive...

The Second Death would probably have the same power that leads believers today to deny themselves and carry their cross daily to eventually live to Christ...

What is the line in Ezekiel that keeps getting repeated when God lays his "vengeance" upon you?

"And then you will know that I am the Lord.."  :winkgrin:

[thinktank]

The Second Death would probably have the same power that leads believers today to deny themselves and carry their cross daily to eventually live to Christ...
Paola

So that means that the lof in their view is a wrapped up sentence of basically saying the gospel continues for the unsaved.
In other words, just as the elect in this age take up the cross and must deny their carnal desires and take up righteousness, that the non elect will also be resurected and have to go through the same thing?

I find this idea interesting and have explored it myself. This idea does ring well with the old testament, because I have yet to find any old testament prophecies about a lake of fire judgment, but yet have found verses where the unsaved are expected to go to jerusalem and pay respect to the king, otherwise God will destroy them, this event must either be the millenium, which I believe it is, or it could in fact stretch beyond the millenium, (remember hat lof takes place after the millenium)which means that the lof could be another way of saying, "lets wrap this gospel up as quick as we can, otherwise we will be writing the story forever, as it takes ages for all people to be saved, so lets just say throw them in the fire forever and ever and if anyone complains we'll just say 'in a sense it is true, they are forever being saved throughout generations for the multibillions of men that need to be saved through the fire of God that was prophecied by malachi"

[Nathan]

Great thread going on here!  Taffy . . .that email was awesome!!

I also see "the dead in Christ shall rise, (spiritual dead, not literal dead) For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: The question then is "why" would the spiritual dead be resurrected first?  Because it's a kingdom principle . . .first shall be last, last shall be first.  Think about it.  Which celebration would be greater?  Those coming into something they were anticipating and expecting?  Or those that were deemed as doomed for all eternity? 

17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

this isn't a literal proclamation.  We know when scripture talks about dead, when Jesus talks about the dead, he's referring to spiritual dead who are yet walking.  Those who are already in the kingdom, yet still living here on this earth, in this realm are the "those that are alive and remain".  The over all plan of this passage is God bringing all of men back into the form of man without death to manfest the division in man . . .taking us back home to our origin, to when man and woman were in one form, one body.  We can walk as one spiritually now, and we will become as one body both spiritually and physically when all things in this realm have finished following the path already drawn out by the Father.

Of course this isn't to say one literal and physical man, but one "whole" body of a corporate man.

[Samuel Cripps]

I don't want to derail this thread, but...


Nathan, are you suggesting that 1 Thess 4:13 is talking about the spiritually dead, and not the physically dead?

[Taffy]

 :icon_flower:
Hi nate
Ive been side tracked these last days elsewhere bro- anyway, did drop chrissy a Line [her email] to come visit :dontknow:

later bud :icon_flower:

[Nathan]

I don't want to derail this thread, but...


Nathan, are you suggesting that 1 Thess 4:13 is talking about the spiritually dead, and not the physically dead?

Eeeeeeyup.  I is.  . . .and it's your thread to start with isn't it?  Derail away :laughing7:

[Chris]

Amen Nathan!

As I see it "the dead in Christ" rise first because it can be no other way. If one died for all, then were ALL DEAD, right?

Christ said: "And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me."

And, indeed, He did. God was in Christ reconciling THE WORLD unto himself!! We were "quickened together with Christ" by being "baptized into HIS DEATH", even WHEN WE WERE DEAD in sins. (Eph 2:5; Rom 6:3)

What we are striving to know is "the power of HIS RESURRECTION" (= "the first resurrection").

In this way are "the second death" and "the first resurrection" inextricably connected.

So many place the first resurrection before the second death and it's only by being baptized into Christ's death (= the second death) that we can part in HIS resurrection (= the first resurrection).

And those who are ALIVE AND REMAIN shall not prevent those WHO SLEEP IN JESUS... for THE DEAD IN CHRIST SHALL RISE FIRST.  Jesus said: "Gather ye together FIRST THE TARES". (Mat 13:30) For it is not until the tares are gathered to be burned that the wheat can shine forth in the kingdom of God.

What need would Paul have to comfort believer about other believers, if that is who "the dead in Christ" are?

[Chris]

Hi Sam!!

Remember me (Chrissie)?? We shared a few emails at the beginning of 2010.  :hithere:

[Molly]

Interesting..

So many place the first resurrection before the second death and it's only by being baptized into Christ's death (= the second death) that we can part in HIS resurrection (= the first resurrection).

I agree with this.

But what about those who have not been baptized into Christ's death?  They remain asleep until the time of the second resurrection? 

And what about those who are actually physically dead at the time of the first resurrection? 

[jabcat]

I believe they were comforted so they wouldn't grieve their loved ones.  It's encouragement for those lost to the perceived "sting of death" - which is no more, when in Christ - it's the "hope" of the believer.   Not all believed or understood/understand that there will be a resurrection.

[jabcat]

I do agree the believer has already experienced the second death (of the old man). 

For now though,  not to be paranoid or self-righteously "separate" from others, but to help show the distinction;

and that we may be delivered from bad and evil men, for faith is not the portion of all.  Darby

Also pray that we may be rescued from worthless and evil people, since not everyone holds to the faith.  ISV

and that we may be delivered from the unreasonable and evil men, for the faith is not of all   YLT  2 Thes. 3:2

[Chris]

Interesting..

So many place the first resurrection before the second death and it's only by being baptized into Christ's death (= the second death) that we can part in HIS resurrection (= the first resurrection).

I agree with this.

But what about those who have not been baptized into Christ's death?  They remain asleep until the time of the second resurrection? 

And what about those who are actually physically dead at the time of the first resurrection?

As I see it, we have ALL been baptized into Christ, into His death (into the ONE NEW MAN created IN CHRIST). Therefore, we have ALL already been raised with Him, as well. And though we are no longer "dead", we "sleep" (which is the same things, regarded after a spiritual truth) not yet knowing THE POWER ~of~ HIS RESURRECTION... until we "awake and arise from the dead" and enter into THE DAY of the Lord (and stop being children OF THE NIGHT).

Scriptures never speaks of a "second resurrection"... only "every man in his own order"... CHRIST FIRST.

It is the power of HIS (Christ's) resurrection that we are striving to know, as HE ((is)) THE RESURRECTION and THE LIFE.

[Chris]

I believe they were comforted so they wouldn't grieve their loved ones.  It's encouragement for those lost to the perceived "sting of death" - which is no more, when in Christ - it's the "hope" of the believer.   Not all believed or understood/understand that there will be a resurrection.

Aren't believers already resurrected? Jesus he who lives and believes shall never die. Why would Paul need to comfort believers about the resurrection of other believers when the Lord himself said they shall never die?

[jabcat]

For the same reason he told them not to mourn as those who had no hope?  They were no longer with them in body, couldn't interact, etc.   Encouraging them they would indeed see them again.  Same as if anyone loses someone in this life - there's grief.

[Chris]

For the same reason he told them not to mourn as those who had no hope?  They were no longer with them in body, couldn't interact, etc.   Encouraging them they would indeed see them again.  Same as if anyone loses someone in this life - there's grief.

With the exception of those who believe in soul sleep, who comforts another believer by telling them not to worry for their loved one will be resurrected one day? Don't we generally console one another with the knowledge that our loved ones are WITH THE LORD?

Besides, it doesn't matter if "the dead in Christ" who Paul is speaking about are unbelievers who are still alive, which was my contention to begin with, right?

[jabcat]

Many, many people do.  I've seen it myself many times.  They are missing, in this life.  I just lost my dad.  Sure, it helps to know he's "OK" now.  But it also helps that he's not gone forever, I will see him again some day.  It's a package deal.

As for the rest of it, I' m not saying there's nothing to what you're saying Chris.   I believe there are multiple layers to much of the scripture, but that it's often not just one or the other.  The scriptures you're discussing may have 6, 10, a thousand different messages and levels for all I know.  As long as it's not clearly anti-scriptural and all other possible views/understanding/applications summarily rejected, I realize folks have different views - and it can all help put the picture together. 

[Chris]

Jabcat,

My point is simply that Paul is not talking about those who are physically dead.  :happygrin:

Sure, many see it that way, but I think that is because so many believe that only believers are "in Christ". So for Paul to speak about "the dead in Christ" rising before those who are "alive and remain", he must be talking about the resurrection of corpses, the corpses of believers.  :dontknow:

But read the whole chapter and see if it makes sense that Paul jumped from telling the Thessalonians to continue to walk in brotherly love and "not in the lust of concupiscence, even as the Gentiles which know not God.....that ye may walk honestly toward them that are without, and that ye may have lack of nothing" to talking about the resurrection of physically dead believers?

I'm not oblivious to grief and I am very sorry for the loss of your dad.  :HeartThrob: I just do not believe that Paul is talking about the physically dead. I believe that "the dead in Christ" in verse 16 are the very same Gentiles "which know not God" that Paul was speaking about in verse 5.  :2c: