To begin, let's consider three verses:
1Cor 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
1Cor 15:26 The last enemy [that] shall be destroyed [is] death.
2Tim 1:10 But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:
It is through the death and resurrection of Christ that death itself will be destroyed.
Now another verse:
Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Here we read that death will be destroyed in the lake of fire. Do we then have a contradiction between this verse that says that death will be destroyed in fire and the others that say that death will be destroyed via the death and resurrection of Christ? No, for the fire and the Cross are one and the same:
"I came to send fire on the earth, and how I wish it were already kindled!
"But I have a baptism to be baptized with, and how distressed I am till it is accomplished! (Luke 12:49-50).
By way of parallelism, Jesus identifies his death on the Cross as His baptism (Matt. 20:22) of fire. John the Baptist, you'll recall, prophesied of the coming fiery baptism in terms of judgment upon sin (Matt. 3:10-12). It is the baptismal fire of Christ that consumes all that is not fit for the Kingdom of God. The Cross accomplishes exactly the same thing, for Jesus bore the sin of the world in judgment, and it is through Christ's death that sin will be done away with.
The Lake of the Fire is the Cross; the second death is the death of the second Adam, in which we must partake in order to die to the flesh and be raised incorruptible.
I need a little help Samuel.
Bit more explantion please.
Didn't Jesus get His baptism of fire when the dove/HS decended from heaven when He was baptized?
Quote from: WhiteWings on January 26, 2011, 07:32:17 PM
I need a little help Samuel.
Bit more explantion please.
Didn't Jesus get His baptism of fire when the dove/HS decended from heaven when He was baptized?
Justin Martyr and other ancient writers did indeed attest to a baptism of light/fire when John baptized Jesus in the Jordan. I think that Christ's baptism by John was a foreshadowing of Christ's won sacrificial death on the cross.
Please ask me more questions if you need clarification.
Maybe a good night sleep will help too. It's 19:23 here and I'm half asleep :thumbdown:
What happened to that email that was posted? It looked really interesting, but I didn't get a chance to read it.
A email from a sister some two yrs back-
To me, being that there are TWO ADAMS/MEN (the FIRST and the LAST, also called THE SECOND MAN) that ALL MEN are "summed up" into, there are TWO DEATHS that ALL MEN are baptized into.... The FIRST being that DEATH which is the penalty FOR SIN (wrought through the FIRST ADAM) and the SECOND being that DEATH OF DEATH (LIFE) that all men have also been baptized into.... the DEATH of THE SECOND MAN (LAST ADAM) Jesus Christ, which is (to me), THE SECOND DEATH.
So what is the second death, as it relates to the death of Jesus Christ and the death of death?
We know that death and hell give up the dead that in them and they are cast INTO THE LAKE OF FIRE. And we know that those whose names are not written in the Lamb's book of life are cast INTO THE LAKE OF FIRE. Right?
When did that happen if not at the death of Jesus Christ (the SECOND MAN) on the cross?
Christ said: "I am come to send fire on the earth" (Luke 12:49)
And in the book of Hebrews we read:
Heb 9:24-28 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us: Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others; For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself. And as it is appointed unto men ONCE TO DIE, **BUT AFTER THIS** THE JUDGMENT: So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.
How many times have I heard people quote "it is appointed unto men once to die and after this the judgment" to say that it is not until after men die (physically) that judgment comes. But is that what this passage is talking about? Or it is talking about THE DEATH OF JESUS CHRIST, specifically? Who came ONCE TO DIE (as it is appointed unto men) and ***AFTER THIS*** THE JUDGMENT?
So that ***NOW*** is THE JUDGMENT of this world and ***NOW*** is the day of salvation?
Having been baptized into HIS DEATH we must strive, as did Paul, TO KNOW the power OF HIS RESURRECTION!!
Rom 6:3-8 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection: Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. For he that is dead is freed from sin. Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:
:icon_flower:
I'm curious as to how this sits with other CUs. What do you make of the idea that the lake of fire and Cross represent the same power?
The 19th century Universalist preacher, Samuel Hutchinson, had a book published in 1827 wherein he wrote the following:
QuoteAnd as the death of righteousness by the first Adam was the first spiritual death, so the death of sin by the death of the second Adam (Christ) is the second spiritual death. And as the Book of Revelation is a vision representing spiritual things by figures, and as that is the only book in the Bible where the term " second death" occurs, therefore I conlude that the death of sin is the "second death" mentioned four times only, in the book of Revelation. And as we are told in Rev. 20:14 and 21:8 that "the lake of fire and brimstone is the second death," and as these are figurative representations of some spiritual process, I shall therefore briefly show what these figures represent, and how their process performs the death of sin, which is the " second death."
:thumbsup:
Well, as Andrew Jukes would say
Death is necessary for us to live to God.. and even if Death is the condemnation of the Law even THAT isn't the end of the Lord.. the Lord kills to make alive...
The Second Death would probably have the same power that leads believers today to deny themselves and carry their cross daily to eventually live to Christ...
What is the line in Ezekiel that keeps getting repeated when God lays his "vengeance" upon you?
"And then you will know that I am the Lord.." :winkgrin:
The Second Death would probably have the same power that leads believers today to deny themselves and carry their cross daily to eventually live to Christ...
Paola
So that means that the lof in their view is a wrapped up sentence of basically saying the gospel continues for the unsaved.
In other words, just as the elect in this age take up the cross and must deny their carnal desires and take up righteousness, that the non elect will also be resurected and have to go through the same thing?
I find this idea interesting and have explored it myself. This idea does ring well with the old testament, because I have yet to find any old testament prophecies about a lake of fire judgment, but yet have found verses where the unsaved are expected to go to jerusalem and pay respect to the king, otherwise God will destroy them, this event must either be the millenium, which I believe it is, or it could in fact stretch beyond the millenium, (remember hat lof takes place after the millenium)which means that the lof could be another way of saying, "lets wrap this gospel up as quick as we can, otherwise we will be writing the story forever, as it takes ages for all people to be saved, so lets just say throw them in the fire forever and ever and if anyone complains we'll just say 'in a sense it is true, they are forever being saved throughout generations for the multibillions of men that need to be saved through the fire of God that was prophecied by malachi"
Great thread going on here! Taffy . . .that email was awesome!!
I also see "the dead in Christ shall rise, (spiritual dead, not literal dead) For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: The question then is "why" would the spiritual dead be resurrected first? Because it's a kingdom principle . . .first shall be last, last shall be first. Think about it. Which celebration would be greater? Those coming into something they were anticipating and expecting? Or those that were deemed as doomed for all eternity?
17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
this isn't a literal proclamation. We know when scripture talks about dead, when Jesus talks about the dead, he's referring to spiritual dead who are yet walking. Those who are already in the kingdom, yet still living here on this earth, in this realm are the "those that are alive and remain". The over all plan of this passage is God bringing all of men back into the form of man without death to manfest the division in man . . .taking us back home to our origin, to when man and woman were in one form, one body. We can walk as one spiritually now, and we will become as one body both spiritually and physically when all things in this realm have finished following the path already drawn out by the Father.
Of course this isn't to say one literal and physical man, but one "whole" body of a corporate man.
I don't want to derail this thread, but...
Nathan, are you suggesting that 1 Thess 4:13 is talking about the spiritually dead, and not the physically dead?
:icon_flower:
Hi nate
Ive been side tracked these last days elsewhere bro- anyway, did drop chrissy a Line [her email] to come visit :dontknow:
later bud :icon_flower:
Quote from: Samuel Cripps on January 31, 2011, 09:17:42 PM
I don't want to derail this thread, but...
Nathan, are you suggesting that 1 Thess 4:13 is talking about the spiritually dead, and not the physically dead?
Eeeeeeyup. I is. . . .and it's your thread to start with isn't it? Derail away :laughing7:
Amen Nathan!
As I see it "the dead in Christ" rise first because it can be no other way. If one died for all, then were ALL DEAD, right?
Christ said: "And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me."
And, indeed, He did. God was in Christ reconciling THE WORLD unto himself!! We were "quickened together with Christ" by being "baptized into HIS DEATH", even WHEN WE WERE DEAD in sins. (Eph 2:5; Rom 6:3)
What we are striving to know is "the power of HIS RESURRECTION" (= "the first resurrection").
In this way are "the second death" and "the first resurrection" inextricably connected.
So many place the first resurrection before the second death and it's only by being baptized into Christ's death (= the second death) that we can part in HIS resurrection (= the first resurrection).
And those who are ALIVE AND REMAIN shall not prevent those WHO SLEEP IN JESUS... for THE DEAD IN CHRIST SHALL RISE FIRST. Jesus said: "Gather ye together FIRST THE TARES". (Mat 13:30) For it is not until the tares are gathered to be burned that the wheat can shine forth in the kingdom of God.
What need would Paul have to comfort believer about other believers, if that is who "the dead in Christ" are?
Hi Sam!!
Remember me (Chrissie)?? We shared a few emails at the beginning of 2010. :hithere:
Interesting..
Quote from: ChrisSo many place the first resurrection before the second death and it's only by being baptized into Christ's death (= the second death) that we can part in HIS resurrection (= the first resurrection).
I agree with this.
But what about those who have not been baptized into Christ's death? They remain asleep until the time of the second resurrection?
And what about those who are actually physically dead at the time of the first resurrection?
I believe they were comforted so they wouldn't grieve their loved ones. It's encouragement for those lost to the perceived "sting of death" - which is no more, when in Christ - it's the "hope" of the believer. Not all believed or understood/understand that there will be a resurrection.
I do agree the believer has already experienced the second death (of the old man).
For now though, not to be paranoid or self-righteously "separate" from others, but to help show the distinction;
and that we may be delivered from bad and evil men, for faith is not the portion of all. Darby
Also pray that we may be rescued from worthless and evil people, since not everyone holds to the faith. ISV
and that we may be delivered from the unreasonable and evil men, for the faith is not of all YLT 2 Thes. 3:2
Quote from: Molly on February 01, 2011, 01:52:40 AM
Interesting..
Quote from: ChrisSo many place the first resurrection before the second death and it's only by being baptized into Christ's death (= the second death) that we can part in HIS resurrection (= the first resurrection).
I agree with this.
But what about those who have not been baptized into Christ's death? They remain asleep until the time of the second resurrection?
And what about those who are actually physically dead at the time of the first resurrection?
As I see it, we have ALL been baptized into Christ, into His death (into the ONE NEW MAN created IN CHRIST). Therefore, we have ALL already been raised with Him, as well. And though we are no longer "dead", we "sleep" (which is the same things, regarded after a spiritual truth) not yet knowing THE POWER ~of~ HIS RESURRECTION... until we "awake and arise from the dead" and enter into THE DAY of the Lord (and stop being children OF THE NIGHT).
Scriptures never speaks of a "second resurrection"... only "every man in his own order"... CHRIST FIRST.
It is the power of HIS (Christ's) resurrection that we are striving to know, as HE ((is)) THE RESURRECTION and THE LIFE.
Quote from: jabcat on February 01, 2011, 01:58:38 AM
I believe they were comforted so they wouldn't grieve their loved ones. It's encouragement for those lost to the perceived "sting of death" - which is no more, when in Christ - it's the "hope" of the believer. Not all believed or understood/understand that there will be a resurrection.
Aren't believers already resurrected? Jesus he who lives and believes shall never die. Why would Paul need to comfort believers about the resurrection of other believers when the Lord himself said they shall never die?
For the same reason he told them not to mourn as those who had no hope? They were no longer with them in body, couldn't interact, etc. Encouraging them they would indeed see them again. Same as if anyone loses someone in this life - there's grief.
Quote from: jabcat on February 01, 2011, 02:15:43 AM
For the same reason he told them not to mourn as those who had no hope? They were no longer with them in body, couldn't interact, etc. Encouraging them they would indeed see them again. Same as if anyone loses someone in this life - there's grief.
With the exception of those who believe in soul sleep, who comforts another believer by telling them not to worry for their loved one will be resurrected one day? Don't we generally console one another with the knowledge that our loved ones are WITH THE LORD?
Besides, it doesn't matter if "the dead in Christ" who Paul is speaking about are unbelievers who are still alive, which was my contention to begin with, right?
Many, many people do. I've seen it myself many times. They are missing, in this life. I just lost my dad. Sure, it helps to know he's "OK" now. But it also helps that he's not gone forever, I will see him again some day. It's a package deal.
As for the rest of it, I' m not saying there's nothing to what you're saying Chris. I believe there are multiple layers to much of the scripture, but that it's often not just one or the other. The scriptures you're discussing may have 6, 10, a thousand different messages and levels for all I know. As long as it's not clearly anti-scriptural and all other possible views/understanding/applications summarily rejected, I realize folks have different views - and it can all help put the picture together.
Jabcat,
My point is simply that Paul is not talking about those who are physically dead. :happygrin:
Sure, many see it that way, but I think that is because so many believe that only believers are "in Christ". So for Paul to speak about "the dead in Christ" rising before those who are "alive and remain", he must be talking about the resurrection of corpses, the corpses of believers. :dontknow:
But read the whole chapter and see if it makes sense that Paul jumped from telling the Thessalonians to continue to walk in brotherly love and "not in the lust of concupiscence, even as the Gentiles which know not God.....that ye may walk honestly toward them that are without, and that ye may have lack of nothing" to talking about the resurrection of physically dead believers?
I'm not oblivious to grief and I am very sorry for the loss of your dad. :HeartThrob: I just do not believe that Paul is talking about the physically dead. I believe that "the dead in Christ" in verse 16 are the very same Gentiles "which know not God" that Paul was speaking about in verse 5. :2c:
And just as a side note:
The reason that I began to look at the verse differently several years ago was because I could not reconcile Paul saying "THE DEAD IN CHRIST shall rise FIRST" with Jesus saying: "gather ye together FIRST THE TARES".
It's then that I started taking another look at everything associated with the resurrection of the dead and references to the first resurrection and the second death, etc.
If Jesus said that the tares are gathered first, in the time of harvest, then why was I always being told the the righteous are resurrected first? I figured there must be a disconnect somewhere. And that is when I started looking into the "thousand years" and it's connection to both THE NIGHT ((and)) THE DAY.
Thanks for the good wishes regarding my dad. :HeartThrob:
**Add/edit - I'll look more indepth at that chapter later. It sounds interesting.
We could be splitting hairs, I don't know. In some sense I could personally agree that all is "in" Christ. Unless I'm misquoting, all is of and from/through Him, etc. I just believe though that most will still need to bow and confess Him as Lord in the next age(s), that those besides the ecclesia (saved in this age) will still need to be given faith to believe (each in his order/turn). So according to my current understanding, in that sense, all are not as yet of the household of faith. Depending on how one interprets some of the semantics, that may all fit together OK with what you're saying, I'm not sure.
I do know though that until/unless God shows me/convinces me otherwise, that I don't believe all are just "A-OK" right now (Pearson's doctrine of Inclusion for example) - and you personally may not believe or mean it that way either (again, semantics and even multiple layers of revelation and truth). But I wanted to state that, as I see it as scriptural, as I'll probably back out of this particular discussion now or soon and let others have their say. :bigGrin:
Take care, James.
Chris, are you saying the first resurrection will be a world wide conversion of Gentiles to Christ?
Quote from: ChrisAren't believers already resurrected? Jesus he who lives and believes shall never die. Why would Paul need to comfort believers about the resurrection of other believers when the Lord himself said they shall never die?
Yes, partially. But even Paul said it was only an ernest and looked forward to a complete resurrection.
Romans 8:23
And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
Quote from: jabcat on February 01, 2011, 03:25:24 AM
Thanks for the good wishes regarding my dad. :HeartThrob:
**Add/edit - I'll look more indepth at that chapter later. It sounds interesting.
We could be splitting hairs, I don't know. In some sense I could personally agree that all is "in" Christ. Unless I'm misquoting, all is of and from/through Him, etc. I just believe though that most will still need to bow and confess Him as Lord in the next age(s), that those besides the ecclesia (saved in this age) will still need to be given faith to believe (each in his order/turn). So according to my current understanding, in that sense, all are not as yet of the household of faith. Depending on how one interprets some of the semantics, that may all fit together OK with what you're saying, I'm not sure.
I do know though that until/unless God shows me/convinces me otherwise, that I don't believe all are just "A-OK" right now (Pearson's doctrine of Inclusion for example) - and you personally may not believe or mean it that way either (again, semantics and even multiple layers of revelation and truth). But I wanted to state that, as I see it as scriptural, as I'll probably back out of this particular discussion now or soon and let others have their say. :bigGrin:
Take care, James.
I'm not really sure what you are saying, especially about Pearson, but I wasn't saying that all believe only that all have been reconciled. We have to be baptized into Christ's death before we come to know the power of His resurrection. Those who have not yet come to the faith are "dead". Only those who believe have passed from death unto life. And even that is a process, as even babes are "yet carnal". Right?
That's fine, that's a good clarification, thanks.
Quote from: Molly on February 01, 2011, 03:50:37 AM
Chris, are you saying the first resurrection will be a world wide conversion of Gentiles to Christ?
No, that's not what I am saying. I'm saying that we have part in "the first resurrection" by coming to know the power of JESUS' resurrection.
Quote from: Molly on February 01, 2011, 03:50:37 AM
Quote from: ChrisAren't believers already resurrected? Jesus he who lives and believes shall never die. Why would Paul need to comfort believers about the resurrection of other believers when the Lord himself said they shall never die?
Yes, partially. But even Paul said it was only an ernest and looked forward to a complete resurrection.
Romans 8:23
And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
We are sealed by the holy spirit of promise when we first believe, right?
As I understand it, THAT is "the earnest" or "the firstfruits" of the spirit.
But when we first believe we are "babes" who are "yet carnal" and we still need to add to our faith, etc, etc and "go on unto perfection" (God willing), right?
So, yes, those who HAVE the earnest/firstfruits of the spirit WAIT FOR "the adoption of sons". And we receive "the adoption of sons" by having Christ formed in us, which is how we are "delivered of the child" (just as Jesus told his disciples they would need to be and just as Paul said he was).
Then we are "no more children" (tossed to and fro) but "sons". And when that which is perfect is come (Christ in us) "then that which is in part shall be done away".
1Co 13:9
For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
1Co 13:10
But when that which is perfect is come,
then that which is in part shall be done away.
1Co 13:11
When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child:
but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
1Co 13:12
For now we see through a glass, darkly;
but then face to face:
now I know in part;
but then shall I know even as also I am known.
There is a difference (spiritually) between "
a child" and "
a son".
Gal 4:1 Now I say, That
the heir, as long as he is a child, differeth nothing from a servant,
though he be lord of all;
Gal 4:2 But is under tutors and governors
until the time appointed of the father.
Gal 4:3
Even so we, when we were children, were in bondage under the elements of the world:
Gal 4:4 But
when the fulness of the time was come, God
sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,
Gal 4:5
To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.
Gal 4:6 And
because ye are sons, God hath sent forth
the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.
Gal 4:7
Wherefore thou art no more a servant, but a son; and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ.
Gal 4:7 Wherefore thou art no more a servant, but a son; and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ.
A son. Yes
An heir. Yes
But when is the full distribution of the estate to the beneficiaries?
Isn't that what Paul was waiting for? to wit, the redemption of the body.
Doesn't that happen at the first resurrection? Is that the time of the fulness of the Gentiles? [that is, all the elect--both Jew and Gentile-- have been brought in?]
Romans 11:25
For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
QuoteThe Second Death would probably have the same power that leads believers today to deny themselves and carry their cross daily to eventually live to Christ...
Paola
So that means that the lof in their view is a wrapped up sentence of basically saying the gospel continues for the unsaved.
In other words, just as the elect in this age take up the cross and must deny their carnal desires and take up righteousness, that the non elect will also be resurected and have to go through the same thing?
I find this idea interesting and have explored it myself. This idea does ring well with the old testament, because I have yet to find any old testament prophecies about a lake of fire judgment, but yet have found verses where the unsaved are expected to go to jerusalem and pay respect to the king, otherwise God will destroy them, this event must either be the millenium, which I believe it is, or it could in fact stretch beyond the millenium, (remember hat lof takes place after the millenium)which means that the lof could be another way of saying, "lets wrap this gospel up as quick as we can, otherwise we will be writing the story forever, as it takes ages for all people to be saved, so lets just say throw them in the fire forever and ever and if anyone complains we'll just say 'in a sense it is true, they are forever being saved throughout generations for the multibillions of men that need to be saved through the fire of God that was prophecied by malachi"
Well, thinktank... God does use tribulation and servitude to correct ppl, He's done it to Israel and I'm sure the LOF might be a similar tribulation or "wrath"... but nothing cruel and unusual like the carnal imaginations of perdition lovers would think up.
Now I say, as long as the heir is a child, he does not differ at all from a slave although he is owner of everything,
(Gal 4:1)
Every child is a son(heir) as far as legal status (To all those who received Him He gave the right to become sons of God Jn 1). The adoption is a matter of the child becoming a son in terms of placement over the Father's estate. Given the "keys to the kingdom". Papa don't give the keys to babies. Its ok to be a baby(if you are newborn), but the process is to become a son- walking like a son... transformed into His likeness in character and conduct. That happens as we perservere under trial. The ultimate fulfillment is the resurrection from the dead at the parousia/epiphania of Jesus Christ, the resurrection of the overcomers.
To wit, the redemption of our bodies......
Jesus was "declared to be the Son of God by the resurrection of the dead"(Romans 1:4)
We have received the earnest of our inheritance, a down payment guaranteeing the purchased possession, but...
"You have need of endurance so that after you have done the will of God you may receive what was promised, For my righteous one will live by faith and if he shrink back my soul will have no pleasure in Him"
Sonship is for the overcomers, those who abide in Christ, enduring to the end
Blessed is the one who endures under trial for after he has overcome he will recieve the crown of life- James
Rev 2:10 'Do not fear what you are about to suffer. Behold, the devil is about to cast some of you into prison, so that you will be tested, and you will have tribulation for ten days. Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life.
In this life, all we who trust in Christ are sons of God. But some are babes and children "no different than a slave" in practice because they cannot be trusted with the keys to Fathers house, because they are still carnal(centered in the self).
"If any man cleanse himself from these he will be a vessel fit for the Masters use"
All those who are "led by the Spirit" are sons in practice, mature, trustworthy.
until we all attain to the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a mature man, to the measure of the stature which belongs to the fullness of Christ. As a result, we are no longer to be children, tossed here and there by waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, by craftiness in deceitful scheming;
(Eph 4:13-14)
"I wrote to you little children, because your sins are forgiven. I write to you young men because you are strong and you have overcome the evil one."
In the outer court there is plenty of blood, sacrifices for the sins of the children. Before we enter the holy place for worship in spirit and truth we have to wash at the door at the bronze laver, it is seated on bronze oxen... the oxen symbolic of the will, "Nevertheless not my will but yours be done" - the overcoming cry of sons. This is the beginning of priesthood, service, sonship.
At the first resurrection all the overcomers, who joined Jesus in the sacrifice of their own wills (If anyone would be my disciple let the take up their cross) will "be declared to be sons of God by the resurrection of the dead". They will be those who walked as sons in their stewardship on earth, laying down their lives.
"He who overcomes will inherit all things and I will be a Father to him and he will be my son"(Rev 21:17)
And although you were formerly alienated and hostile in mind, engaged in evil deeds, yet He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death, in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach-- if indeed you continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel that you have heard, which was proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul, was made a minister.
(Col 1:21-23)
"And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony and they loved not their lives unto death" Rev 12:11
Quote from: Molly on February 01, 2011, 06:27:30 AM
Gal 4:7 Wherefore thou art no more a servant, but a son; and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ.
A son. Yes
An heir. Yes
But when is the full distribution of the estate to the beneficiaries?
Isn't that what Paul was waiting for? to wit, the redemption of the body.
Doesn't that happen at the first resurrection? Is that the time of the fulness of the Gentiles? [that is, all the elect--both Jew and Gentile-- have been brought in?]
Romans 11:25
For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
This is where "beohold all things become as new" comes into play. The "elements" Galatians speaks of is not natural elements of the earth, but it's pertaining to religious frameworks . . .the origin of a rule or law. The law is still there, but if your a child, the law has the appearance as something of control, rebuke even. But when you become a son, the law is the same law, but now you have a new perspective on it's purpose. Rather than a rebuke, I now see the purpose of the law as a bridge to get man from the Old Covenant into the New. And once Christ appeared "as" the New, the Old was no longer necessary to contend with. .. . the mount of transfiguration proclaims this same thing . . .it's no longer necessary to build honor to the law (Moses) or to the prophets (Elijah) but now Christ is the only sound we need to identify and harmonize with.
And in this new perspective, we then have to go back and retrain our brain in these passages like the one we've been looking at in Thessalonians . . .we've been programmed that it's talkiong about the rapture of the church . .dead in Christ shall rise first . . .then those who are alive and remain . . .looking at that now, it doesn't make that much sense . . .remain from what? And isnt' the belief of the rapture supposed to be that it's going to happen in a blink of an eye? Yet here, there's an order . . .they want it both ways.
Quote from: Nathan on February 01, 2011, 04:01:55 PM
This is where "beohold all things become as new" comes into play. The "elements" Galatians speaks of is not natural elements of the earth, but it's pertaining to religious frameworks . . .the origin of a rule or law. The law is still there, but if your a child, the law has the appearance as something of control, rebuke even. But when you become a son, the law is the same law, but now you have a new perspective on it's purpose. Rather than a rebuke, I now see the purpose of the law as a bridge to get man from the Old Covenant into the New. And once Christ appeared "as" the New, the Old was no longer necessary to contend with. .. . the mount of transfiguration proclaims this same thing . . .it's no longer necessary to build honor to the law (Moses) or to the prophets (Elijah) but now Christ is the only sound we need to identify and harmonize with.
And in this new perspective, we then have to go back and retrain our brain in these passages like the one we've been looking at in Thessalonians . . .we've been programmed that it's talkiong about the rapture of the church . .dead in Christ shall rise first . . .then those who are alive and remain . . .looking at that now, it doesn't make that much sense . . .remain from what? And isnt' the belief of the rapture supposed to be that it's going to happen in a blink of an eye? Yet here, there's an order . . .they want it both ways.
I agree that the "elements" are the systems of the world including religious and philosophical towers and strongholds, governed by principalities(seducing spirits, doctrines of demons, wisdom from below- earthly psychological,demonic. The word elements is "stoicheon" and is the same word used in Hebrews 5 "the elemental principles of the oracles of God".
We must come out from under the "elemental principles of the universe" and be built upon the "elemental principles" of the oracles of God before we can "go on" unto maturity. Peter says that the present kosmos is reserved for fire, which will "consume the elements" transfoming the earth into a new/renewed heavens and earth "in which righteousness dwells".
In the moment, in the twinkling of an eye, when the veil that covers the heavens is rolled back like a scroll, the Lord will "remove the veil that is over all peoples" Isaih 25:6-9 The epihania/parousia/erchomai of Christ will be a universal event in the consciousness of all beings, "even those who pierced him".
However, I believe that it will be an event that will be consummated in history (like as the Lamb was slain from the foundation of the world, but also was manifest at the "consummation of the ages" to make sacrifice for sins Heb 9:26)even though it transcends time. An awakening, so to speak, that is like "the dawning of the day until the full noon." The day has already dawned, the elements are being consumed, we have weapons that are mighty through God for the tearing down of every stronghold and fortress that exalts itself against the true knowledge of God, the full noon is fast approaching, "Awake thou that sleepest and arise from the dead and the light of Christ will shine on you!"
For children of the day, the thief will not catch them out. For children of the night, the thief will take them like an unarmed man and plunder their house. "To the one who has more shall be given, to the one who has not even that which he has will be taken away".
6For thus saith the LORD of hosts; Yet once, it is a little while, and I will shake the heavens, and the earth, and the sea, and the dry land;
7And I will shake all nations, and the desire of all nations shall come: and I will fill this house with glory, saith the LORD of hosts.
--Haggai 2
Isaiah 40:4
Every valley shall be exalted, and every mountain and hill shall be made low: and the crooked shall be made straight, and the rough places plain:
6And all flesh shall see [the salvation of God] Y'shu'ah elohiym.
--Luke 3
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x1ykTzqZkLE
Oh yes . . .that which is in the spirit is already complete, as "we" who are spirits (redemption already complete) yet still living in these temperal bodies (still bound to laws of time) are/have been/will continue to manifest that which is complete in the spirit to also reflect that completion in the flesh on an individual basis, according to the receptivity of the individuals.
Shaking the heavens and the earth . . .again, for me, not "my" natural understanding of heaven and earth, but the spiritual heavens (belief systems) and earth (carnality). It's not for the glory of man, but it's for the glory of God. Man's glory is part of the stuff that's being shaken "away". "My" flesh shall see the kingdom . . ."our" flesh shall see the kingdom . . .on an individual, a personal basis, which then will lead to "all flesh", not just all flesh in me, but all individuals will finally "see" the kingdom.
I think Jabcat commented about the fact that there are many different levels, layers to seeing these things and I totally agree. And to that I'd add that some are much more beneficial to us than others, depending on where our level of maturity is in our relationship with the Father. The more we grow in him, the more receptive we become to the hard-to-understand principles and patterns. The more we grow spiritually, the more we need to let go of doctrinally.
I gotta retrain my brain so I can embrace his grace.
Quote from: Nathan on February 01, 2011, 05:42:33 PM
Oh yes . . .that which is in the spirit is already complete, as "we" who are spirits (redemption already complete) yet still living in these temperal bodies (still bound to laws of time) are/have been/will continue to manifest that which is complete in the spirit to also reflect that completion in the flesh on an individual basis, according to the receptivity of the individuals.
Shaking the heavens and the earth . . .again, for me, not "my" natural understanding of heaven and earth, but the spiritual heavens (belief systems) and earth (carnality). It's not for the glory of man, but it's for the glory of God. Man's glory is part of the stuff that's being shaken "away". "My" flesh shall see the kingdom . . ."our" flesh shall see the kingdom . . .on an individual, a personal basis, which then will lead to "all flesh", not just all flesh in me, but all individuals will finally "see" the kingdom.
I think Jabcat commented about the fact that there are many different levels, layers to seeing these things and I totally agree. And to that I'd add that some are much more beneficial to us than others, depending on where our level of maturity is in our relationship with the Father. The more we grow in him, the more receptive we become to the hard-to-understand principles and patterns. The more we grow spiritually, the more we need to let go of doctrinally.
I gotta retrain my brain so I can embrace his grace.
I agree. The fact is that the more we grow, the more the "shadow/veil/mist/chaff" is broken off, purged, dissipated by the light etc. No matter what the doctrine, the letter is law. The law is a shadow, the solid reality is Christ Himself, in whom are hid all the treasures of the wisdom and knowledge of God.
The seamless integrity of the scriptures folds into the Logos and flows out of the Rhema like breathing in and breathing out- and there is no contradiction, we just need to "Come up higher"
As we press into true spirituality, we find that each of the seeming paradoxes and their polarizing extremes as doctrine, are actually veils to a paradigm of true knowledge that lies just between/beyond/above the poles of the paradox. Free will/predestination, law/grace, historical interpretation/preterist interpretation- these struggles actually each represent two sides of one coin. the whole coin must fall in the slot before the turnstile opens and the drawbridge lowers.
For though by this time you ought to be teachers, you have need again for someone to teach you the elementary principles(stoicheon) of the oracles of God, and you have come to need milk and not solid food. For everyone who partakes only of milk is not accustomed to the word of righteousness, for he is an infant. But solid food is for the mature, who because of practice have their senses trained to discern good and evil. Therefore leaving the elementary teaching about the Christ, let us press on to maturity, not laying again a foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God, of instruction about washings and laying on of hands, and the resurrection of the dead and eternal judgment.
And this we will do, if God permits. (Heb 5:12-6:3)
Oh DUDE!!! You're singin my song bro!!! I love it!!
So . . .question . . . what is "the elementary teachings about the Christ"?
Quote from: Nathan on February 01, 2011, 07:47:00 PM
Oh DUDE!!! You're singin my song bro!!! I love it!!
So . . .question . . . what is "the elementary teachings about the Christ"?
repentance from dead works,
and of faith toward God,
2Of the doctrine of baptisms,
and of laying on of hands,
and of resurrection of the dead,
and of eternal [aionios] judgment.
--Heb 6
That's the milk? That's all we ever talk about lol.
EXACTLY!!! Now, for me . . .a good example of the meat is in Galatians 4 . . .Paul went dimensional on them.
21 Tell me, you who want to be under the law, are you not aware of what the law says? 22 For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by the slave woman and the other by the free woman. 23 His son by the slave woman was born according to the flesh, but his son by the free woman was born as the result of a divine promise.
24 These things are being taken figuratively: (MEAT) The women represent two covenants. One covenant is from Mount Sinai and bears children who are to be slaves: This is Hagar. 25 Now Hagar stands for Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to the present city of Jerusalem, because she is in slavery with her children. 26 But the Jerusalem that is above is free, and she is our mother. 27 For it is written:
"Be glad, barren woman,
you who never bore a child;
shout for joy and cry aloud,
you who were never in labor;
because more are the children of the desolate woman
than of her who has a husband."[e]
28 Now you, brothers and sisters, like Isaac, are children of promise. 29 At that time the son born according to the flesh persecuted the son born by the power of the Spirit. It is the same now. 30 But what does Scripture say? "Get rid of the slave woman and her son, for the slave woman's son will never share in the inheritance with the free woman's son."[f] 31 Therefore, brothers and sisters, we are not children of the slave woman, but of the free woman.
He took a historical story and went "inward" with it and made "us" the direct connection of Isaac, the offspring of a free woman (mindset) as opposed to that of one in bondage . . . .I got a thing we just came across on the pattern bewteen Adam and Eve with the fruit and Abraham and Sarah offering her hand maid . .. totally awesome pattern . . .but I don't have time right now to do anything with it.
Yes, that why we are still not walking as sons :o) but rather as children under tutors- still not ready for the keys
In my opinion, the most important and maligned foundation is eternal judgment
the doctrine of resurrection from the dead is the "whens"
the doctrine of eternal judgement is God's aionian counsel the "why's" of God
Thats why I believe UR is not optional.... it is the key to the restoration of the body.... a foundation on which the "WHY" of God rests
It is impossible to be wise without the whys :o)
Quote from: Nathan on February 01, 2011, 10:01:21 PM
EXACTLY!!! Now, for me . . .a good example of the meat is in Galatians 4 . . .Paul went dimensional on them.
21 Tell me, you who want to be under the law, are you not aware of what the law says? 22 For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by the slave woman and the other by the free woman. 23 His son by the slave woman was born according to the flesh, but his son by the free woman was born as the result of a divine promise.
24 These things are being taken figuratively: (MEAT) The women represent two covenants. One covenant is from Mount Sinai and bears children who are to be slaves: This is Hagar. 25 Now Hagar stands for Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to the present city of Jerusalem, because she is in slavery with her children. 26 But the Jerusalem that is above is free, and she is our mother. 27 For it is written:
"Be glad, barren woman,
you who never bore a child;
shout for joy and cry aloud,
you who were never in labor;
because more are the children of the desolate woman
than of her who has a husband."[e]
28 Now you, brothers and sisters, like Isaac, are children of promise. 29 At that time the son born according to the flesh persecuted the son born by the power of the Spirit. It is the same now. 30 But what does Scripture say? "Get rid of the slave woman and her son, for the slave woman's son will never share in the inheritance with the free woman's son."[f] 31 Therefore, brothers and sisters, we are not children of the slave woman, but of the free woman.
He took a historical story and went "inward" with it and made "us" the direct connection of Isaac, the offspring of a free woman (mindset) as opposed to that of one in bondage . . . .I got a thing we just came across on the pattern bewteen Adam and Eve with the fruit and Abraham and Sarah offering her hand maid . .. totally awesome pattern . . .but I don't have time right now to do anything with it.
Exactly.... He took the letter into the Spirit and made life giving bread out of it instead of stoning someone to death with it ;o)
Our mother is the New Jerusalem from above(universal, time transcendent) is free- and she is gestating sons......
For the anxious longing of the creation waits eagerly for the revealing of the sons of God. For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope(looking forward to) that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory(glorious liberty) of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation groans and suffers the pains of childbirth together until now.
(Rom 8:19-22)
Yea!
:egyptdance: :egyptdance: :Egyptdance2: :egyptdance: :egyptdance:
Is this sentence written strangely?
Ephesians 4:13 (King James Version)
13Till we all come... unto a perfect man,
Shouldn't it say until we all come unto perfect men? [to be proper English]
Or does it mean what it says, that we, all together, in oneness, comprise [or come into] one perfect man?
Ephesians 4:13
13Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
"unity"
G1775
ἑνότης
henotēs
hen-ot'-ace
From G1520; oneness, that is, (figuratively) unanimity: - unity.
Do any of these help?
Concordant Literal
unto the end that we should all attain to the unity of the faith and of the realization of the son of God, to a mature man, to the measure of the stature of the complement of the Christ,
Living Translation
This will continue until we all come to such unity in our faith and knowledge of God's Son that we will be mature in the Lord, measuring up to the full and complete standard of Christ.
English Standard Version (©2001)
until we all attain to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to mature manhood, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ,
New American Standard Bible (©1995)
until we all attain to the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a mature man, to the measure of the stature which belongs to the fullness of Christ.
American Standard Version
till we all attain unto the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a fullgrown man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
Bible in Basic English
Till we all come to the harmony of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to full growth, to the full measure of Christ:
Douay-Rheims Bible
Until we all meet into the unity of faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the age of the fulness of Christ;
English Revised Version
till we all attain unto the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a fullgrown man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
Weymouth New Testament
till we all of us arrive at oneness in faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God, and at mature manhood and the stature of full-grown men in Christ.
I started to go out and get my Christian Bible out of the car, but I chickened out due to the weather. Maybe later :mblush:
Quote from: Molly on February 01, 2011, 06:27:30 AM
Gal 4:7 Wherefore thou art no more a servant, but a son; and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ.
A son. Yes
An heir. Yes
But when is the full distribution of the estate to the beneficiaries?
Isn't that what Paul was waiting for? to wit, the redemption of the body.
Doesn't that happen at the first resurrection? Is that the time of the fulness of the Gentiles? [that is, all the elect--both Jew and Gentile-- have been brought in?]
Romans 11:25
For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
Molly, the child is an heir, but he is not (yet) a son. We have to be "delivered of the child" before we can receive "the adoption of sons" and that "is" the redemption of our bodies... What Paul was waiting for and what we are waiting for is for Christ to be formed IN US, for God to send forth the spirit OF HIS SON into our hearts. We do not (yet) have that as "babes" or "children" (the spiritual equivalent of being "woman" who needs to be "delivered of the child", which is why Paul said; "I suffer not a woman to teach").
And yes, that it tied to "the first resurrection". But you seem to still be looking forward to a single event that has yet to take place that you see as "the first resurrection". But Christ is risen!! And we have part in "the FIRST resurrection" when we come to know the power OF HIS resurrection. He is THE FIRST-FRUITS of them that slept. When HE (who is OUR LIFE) appears (is revealed) IN US then shall we also appear WITH HIM in glory (Christ in you, the hope of glory). That is how we pass from death unto life, that is how THIS MORTAL "puts on" immortality and THIS CORRUPTIBLE "puts on" incorruption. It is not about being "unclothed" but about being CLOTHED UPON. (2 Cor 5:1-4)
It is not a physical grave that we need to be redeemed from, it is "the body of this death" that is "full of dead men's bones" and whose THROAT is "an open sepulcher" and whose TONGUE is "a world of iniquity... set on fire of hell". It is THIS MORTAL body that is quickened by the spirit of God that dwells IN US. It is THIS MORTAL and THIS CORRUPTIBLE who must "put on" immortality and incorruption. That's not about corpses of rotting flesh in physical graves. It's about those who are "dead" IN SIN. It's about being clothed, not unclothed, according to Paul.
Quote from: Molly on February 02, 2011, 01:51:36 AM
Is this sentence written strangely?
Ephesians 4:13 (King James Version)
13Till we all come... unto a perfect man,
Shouldn't it say until we all come unto perfect men? [to be proper English]
Or does it mean what it says, that we, all together, in oneness, comprise [or come into] one perfect man?
Ephesians 4:13
13Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
"unity"
G1775
ἑνότης
henotēs
hen-ot'-ace
From G1520; oneness, that is, (figuratively) unanimity: - unity.
This, to me, speaks of the ONE NEW MAN created in Christ, the ONE BODY into which we have all been placed, as "the second man IS the Lord from heaven". It's about the body "growing up" into the Head.
37 They were surprised and terrified. They thought they were seeing a ghost.
38 Jesus said to them, "Why are you troubled? Why do you have doubts in your minds? 39 Look at my hands and my feet. It is really I! Touch me and see. A ghost does not have a body or bones. But you can see that I do."
40 After he said that, he showed them his hands and feet. 41 But they still did not believe it. They were amazed and filled with joy.
--Luke 24
20For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ:
21Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.
--PHil 3
[Who] "shall change" [our vile body]
G3345
μετασχηματίζω
metaschēmatizō
met-askh-ay-mat-id'-zo
From G3326 and a derivative of G4976; to transfigure or disguise; figuratively to apply (by accommodation): - transfer, transform (self).
When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.
--2 Thess 1:10
1 John 3:2
Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
Molly, is your post directed to me? If so, cam you give me a clue as to why you posted those verses? Do you think I disagree with any of them? :dontknow:
Quote from: Chris on February 02, 2011, 05:11:38 AM
Molly, is your post directed to me? If so, cam you give me a clue as to why you posted those verses? Do you think I disagree with any of them? :dontknow:
It was directed at me, to confirm my belief that we will receive glorified bodies--that's what I believe. I'm thinking now that it will happen all at once, [what others call the rapture], as he appears in his saints, the second time unto salvation.
Do you disagree with this? I don't know. I tend to be very literal. I'm thinking this is the first resurrection. Do you disagree? lol
And we, who with unveiled faces all reflect the Lord's glory,
are being transformed into his likeness with ever-increasing glory, which comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit.
2 Corinthians 3:18
Quote from: Molly on February 02, 2011, 05:38:43 AM
It was directed at me, to confirm my belief that we will receive glorified bodies--that's what I believe. I'm thinking now that it will happen all at once, [what others call the rapture], as he appears in his saints, the second time unto salvation.
So what do you believe it means that He will appear "IN" His saints? That it will not be a physical manifestation, but His saints will be given glorified bodies all at once? And remain on earth? Or be raptured away somewhere?
QuoteDo you disagree with this? I don't know. I tend to be very literal. I'm thinking this is the first resurrection. Do you disagree? lol
No, I see the first resurrection as already discussed. I see it according to a spiritual truth, as it relates to us, but it is "seen" (physically) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ (and those whom He raised from the dead).
QuoteAnd we, who with unveiled faces all reflect the Lord's glory, are being transformed into his likeness with ever-increasing glory, which comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit.
2 Corinthians 3:18
I agree that we are changed into His image by the spirit - from glory to glory. But I believe that "
as He is so are we in this world".
To me, it's all about Christ being formed IN US, so that we can be "delivered of the child" (ie "saved in childbearing") and receive "the adoption of sons". As it is those who are led by the spirit (not the "babes" and "little children", who are "yet carnal") who are "sons of God". I don't believe that we have to die physically and/or be resurrected physically to enter into the kingdom of God, we can only see it and enter into it by faith. I believe we do that now/here.
If you tend to see things literally, then how do compare spiritual things with spiritual by looking upon those things that are NOT seen? What is your understanding of what Paul meant by that?
Quote from: Samuel Cripps on January 26, 2011, 06:47:25 PM
To begin, let's consider three verses:
1Cor 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
1Cor 15:26 The last enemy [that] shall be destroyed [is] death.
2Tim 1:10 But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:
It is through the death and resurrection of Christ that death itself will be destroyed.
Now another verse:
Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Here we read that death will be destroyed in the lake of fire. Do we then have a contradiction between this verse that says that death will be destroyed in fire and the others that say that death will be destroyed via the death and resurrection of Christ? No, for the fire and the Cross are one and the same:
"I came to send fire on the earth, and how I wish it were already kindled!
"But I have a baptism to be baptized with, and how distressed I am till it is accomplished! (Luke 12:49-50).
By way of parallelism, Jesus identifies his death on the Cross as His baptism (Matt. 20:22) of fire. John the Baptist, you'll recall, prophesied of the coming fiery baptism in terms of judgment upon sin (Matt. 3:10-12). It is the baptismal fire of Christ that consumes all that is not fit for the Kingdom of God. The Cross accomplishes exactly the same thing, for Jesus bore the sin of the world in judgment, and it is through Christ's death that sin will be done away with.
The Lake of the Fire is the Cross; the second death is the death of the second Adam, in which we must partake in order to die to the flesh and be raised incorruptible.
"Jesus death is His baptism." Thank you for this clarification Samuel! I can believe what you are saying is true.
I wonder if every man's death is also a type of personal baptism??
Thoughts?
Blessings,
brian
Eph. 2:15
(ASV) having abolished in the flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; that he might create in himself of the two one new man, so making peace;
(CLV) (the enmity in His flesh), nullifying the law of precepts in decrees, that He should be creating the two, in Himself, into one new humanity, making peace;"
(KJV) Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
(Rotherham) The enmity, in his flesh—the law of commandments in decrees—bringing to nought,—that, the two, he might create in himself, into one man of new mould, making peace.
(RYLT-NT) the enmity{hostility} in his flesh, the law of the commands in ordinances having done away, that the two he might create in himself into one new man, making peace,
(WNT) by setting aside the Law with its commandments, expressed, as they were, in definite decrees. His design was to unite the two sections of humanity in Himself so as to form one new man,
(YLT) the enmity in his flesh, the law of the commands in ordinances having done away, that the two he might create in himself into one new man, making peace,
Peace G1515
i-rah'-nay
Probably from a primary verb εἴρω eirō (to join); peace (literally or figuratively); by implication prosperity: - one, peace, quietness, rest, + set at one again.
Quote from: ChrisSo what do you believe it means that He will appear "IN" His saints? That it will not be a physical manifestation, but His saints will be given glorified bodies all at once? And remain on earth? Or be raptured away somewhere?
I am still keeping an open mind on this, but I am becoming more and more convicted that it will be a sudden thing and that, when it happens, we will be like him--instantly--both spiritually and physically [glorified body]. I'm not saying I will live to see this.
In the meantime, we aspire to be like him [spiritually] and we become more like him in ever increasing glory through the work of the HS. But in this life it's never a complete work--growing up to the fulness of Christ. I look around and can see some who are more like Christ than others, but I have never seen HIM in other people--just glimpses of him.
QuoteIf you tend to see things literally, then how do compare spiritual things with spiritual by looking upon those things that are NOT seen? What is your understanding of what Paul meant by that?
I take it literally.lol I'm able to compare spiritual with spiritual. What did he mean? Anyone who has read literature understands what he meant. One thing can be a metaphor or an analogy or a spiritual representation of another thing. And then we use that fact to make comparisons of one thing to another.
Quote from: Molly on February 03, 2011, 12:49:25 AM
I am becoming more and more convicted that it will be a sudden thing and that, when it happens, we will be like him--instantly--both spiritually and physically [glorified body]. I'm not saying I will live to see this.
In the meantime, we aspire to be like him [spiritually] and we become more like him in ever increasing glory through the work of the HS. But in this life it's never a complete work--growing up to the fulness of Christ. I look around and can see some who are more like Christ than others, but I have never seen HIM in other people--just glimpses of him.
I think
much of what's being shared by Chris and all can fit together in the big picture (some details to be revealed :bigGrin:). Your quote above is very much the way I understand it too, Molly. IMO, there won't be any guessing. It will be miraculous and apparent to all. We will be changed, in the twinkling of an eye - as mortality puts on immortality. I know there are variances in opinion regarding His coming(s), but I believe He will be apparent and apparent in us -
however He comes, He
will come. :thumbsup:
Quote from: Molly on February 03, 2011, 12:49:25 AM
I take it literally.lol I'm able to compare spiritual with spiritual. What did he mean? Anyone who has read literature understands what he meant. One thing can be a metaphor or an analogy or a spiritual representation of another thing. And then we use that fact to make comparisons of one thing to another.
So is that like those who claim that "
anyone who can read can understand what the bible says"? It's "so easy" to understand, in fact, that if you don't agree "with me" you must be demon possessed or just have itchy ears or maybe just be plain stupid? :dontknow:
Quote from: Chris on February 03, 2011, 02:22:36 AM
Quote from: Molly on February 03, 2011, 12:49:25 AM
I take it literally.lol I'm able to compare spiritual with spiritual. What did he mean? Anyone who has read literature understands what he meant. One thing can be a metaphor or an analogy or a spiritual representation of another thing. And then we use that fact to make comparisons of one thing to another.
So is that like those who claim that "anyone who can read can understand what the bible says"? It's "so easy" to understand, in fact, that if you don't agree "with me" you must be demon possessed or just have itchy ears or maybe just be plain stupid? :dontknow:
huh? no, lol
example:
1 Corinthians 10:4
And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.
We can use that to compare others uses of the word, rock.
And on this rock I will build my church...
I started thinking along these lines (that the second death is dying with Jesus) in 1997, when Revelation 20:14 caught my attention and got me thinking.
Unfortunately, our brother Scott (pneuma) is accusing me of stealing his thoughts after he recently read the OP of this thread (which I posted on another forum where he is a member). I even showed Scott a thread I started in 2004 where I expressed these same thoughts, and he still accuses me of plagiarizing him. Oh well...
The Holy Spirit is the teacher, He speaks to any who will hear. When we think it is "our idea" or that God chose us "first" to say anything, we are walking in presumption and vain-glory.
Quote from: eaglesway on March 23, 2011, 06:11:52 AM
The Holy Spirit is the teacher, He speaks to any who will hear. When we think it is "our idea" or that God chose us "first" to say anything, we are walking in presumption and vain-glory.
Amen!