soul and spirit

[Molly]

45And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

--1 Cor 15




What  happened to the soul of the last Adam?


He laid it down for us. [1 John 3:16]



"laid down"

G5087
τίθημι
tithēmi
tith'-ay-mee
A prolonged form of a primary word θέω theō (which is used only as an alternate in certain tenses); to place (in the widest application, literally and figuratively; properly in a passive or horizontal posture, and thus different from G2476, which properly denotes an upright and active position, while G2749 is properly reflexive and utterly prostrate): - + advise, appoint, bow, commit, conceive, give, X kneel down, lay (aside, down, up), make, ordain, purpose, put, set (forth), settle, sink down.

[Zeek]

Psalm 135:

15The idols of the heathen are silver and gold, the work of men's hands.

16They have mouths, but they speak not; eyes have they, but they see not;

17They have ears, but they hear not; neither is there any breath in their mouths.

18They that make them are like unto them: so is every one that trusteth in them.



Interesting here we have beings with "no breath in their mouth", but yet physically alive

[WhiteWings]

^KJVLuk 9:60 Jesus said unto him, Let the dead bury their dead: but go thou and preach the kingdom of God.

[Zeek]

"dust" doesn't have to be "literal" either:

Gen 18:27And Abraham answered and said, Behold, I pray, I have undertaken to speak to the Lord, and I am dust and ash.

1 Sam 2:8 He raises the poor from the dust; He lifts up the needy from the dunghill, to cause them to sit with nobles; yea, He causes them to inherit a throne of honor; for to Jehovah are the pillars of the earth; and He sets the habitable world on them.

1 Kings16:2 Since I have raised you up out of the dust, and made you ruler over My people Israel, and you have walked in the way of Jeroboam, and caused My people Israel to sin, to provoke Me to anger with their sins;

Job 4:19 How much more those that dwell in houses of clay; whose foundation is in the dust; they crush them before the moth!

Psalms 103:14 For He knows how we are made, remembering that we are dust.

Psalms 44:25 For our soul bows down to the dust; our belly holds fast to the earth.

2 Samuel 22:43 And I beat them as the dust of the earth; I crushed them small as the mire of the streets; I spread them out.

[Nathan]

I like you're take on this ChuckT . . .and it appears that as this thread advances, the truth does seem to be emerging out of this.  Without the quickening breath of life in us, we are walking dead.  Jesus mentioned this as well when he stated "let the dead bury the dead".   The spirit is life.  The mind is at emnity with God, who is spirit and life.  Adam didn't "come to life" until after God "breathed" into him his own spirit.  Our minds can not put our spirit out, but they can "veil" it.  I believe that's what the resurrection is all about, it's about my spirit rising "up" to it's original and rightful place on the throne within me from beneath the veil of my mind/soul.  

Adam was not a walking soul, he was a "living" soul.  But when he received from his Eve, it wasn't "just" the fruit that messed the aligment up.  Adam didn't pick fruit for himself.  he received from his "Eve".  He was the one who had authority over her, but he submitted to her and the moment he let his Eve, his mind, feed his spirit, it immediately separated them from the presence of God.  It brought death.  I would venture to say perhaps he was no longer a living soul, but he became a walking dead man.

[Molly]

That is a question isnt it, "why was man called and living soul and not just a soul."

because he had not yet sinned, the soul that sins shall die!

all souls belong to God

all persons belong to God.

chuckt

So there are 'living' souls and 'dead' souls?

The animals also have a soul--nephesh--but they don't seem to suffer that relationship between sin and death.


20And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven.

--Gen 1


[the moving creature] "that hath life"

H5315
נפשׁ
nephesh
neh'-fesh
From H5314; properly a breathing creature, that is, animal or (abstractly) vitality; used very widely in a literal, accommodated or figurative sense (bodily or mental): - any, appetite, beast, body, breath, creature, X dead (-ly), desire, X [dis-] contented, X fish, ghost, + greedy, he, heart (-y), (hath, X jeopardy of) life (X in jeopardy), lust, man, me, mind, mortality, one, own, person, pleasure, (her-, him-, my-, thy-) self, them (your) -selves, + slay, soul, + tablet, they, thing, (X she) will, X would have it.

[Molly]

..and the moment he let his Eve, his mind, feed his spirit, it immediately separated them from the presence of God.  It brought death.  I would venture to say perhaps he was no longer a living soul, but he became a walking dead man.

and he did eat.

7And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked;




and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God amongst the trees of the garden.

9And the LORD God called unto Adam, and said unto him, Where art thou?

10And he said, I heard thy voice in the garden, and I was afraid, because I was naked; and I hid myself.

11And he said, Who told thee that thou wast naked?


--Gen 3

[chuckt]

So there are 'living' souls and 'dead' souls?

YES!

Rom 6:13 Neither yield ye your members [as] instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members [as] instruments of righteousness unto God.

[chuckt]

2Cr 5:14 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead:

[Zeek]

a thought from a friend of mine:

"I understand that I may be alone here in this understanding, since I embrace Covenant Creation, but the text says that Adam was "formed" (a covenant word) from "the dust of the ground (i.e., humanity) and had the "breath of life" (ru'ah) breathed into him - he then became a living soul (psuche in the LXX).

I believe that "the soul" had to do with the establishment of the covenant. So, in the NT, he who wants to "gain the whole world" (status in the covenant) will LOSE his soul, i.e., his position in the covenant. If he wanted to follow Christ, one had to "lose his soul" for Christ's sake; in other words, volutarily. He had to willingly choose Christ by giving up "his soul," i.e., his position in the covenant.

I believe that this is proved out by the verse in Hebrews 4:12 which says, "12for the reckoning of God is living, and working, and sharp above every two-edged sword, and piercing unto the dividing asunder both of soul and spirit, of joints also and marrow, and a discerner of thoughts and intents of the heart;" (YLT). The word, or reckoning of God divides "soul" from "spirit;" in other words, it is the job of God's reckoning to divide those who sought to hold onto their status in the covenant (soul) from those who "walked in the spirit," i.e. gave up their soul for Christ's sake.  "

[Molly]

So there are 'living' souls and 'dead' souls?

YES!

Rom 6:13 Neither yield ye your members [as] instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members [as] instruments of righteousness unto God.

So it is the dead soul that is naked?



17Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:

18 I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.

--Rev 3

[Molly]

"I understand that I may be alone here in this understanding, since I embrace Covenant Creation, but the text says that Adam was "formed" (a covenant word) from "the dust of the ground (i.e., humanity) and had the "breath of life" (ru'ah) breathed into him - he then became a living soul (psuche in the LXX).

I agree that Adam was a covenant man--

He was given a job to do--

15And the LORD God took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it.
--Gen 2


And, he was given one commandment--



17But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
--Gen 2

[Dallas]

I believe that "the soul" had to do with the establishment of the covenant. So, in the NT, he who wants to "gain the whole world" (status in the covenant) will LOSE his soul, i.e., his position in the covenant. If he wanted to follow Christ, one had to "lose his soul" for Christ's sake; in other words, volutarily. He had to willingly choose Christ by giving up "his soul," i.e., his position in the covenant.

:thumbsup: :thumbsup:

as is what deuteronomy announced...

Deuteronomy 30:19 "I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, the blessing and the curse. So choose life in order that you may live, you and your descendants"

But that was covenant works for covenant Israel, for us, by Grace, "We have life becase Jesus chose it and gave it to us freely" The entire Torah is the focus of the creation of the OLD COVENANT.

Good word, Zeek's friend.

[Beloved Servant]

I like you're take on this ChuckT . . .and it appears that as this thread advances, the truth does seem to be emerging out of this.  Without the quickening breath of life in us, we are walking dead.  Jesus mentioned this as well when he stated "let the dead bury the dead".   The spirit is life.  The mind is at emnity with God, who is spirit and life.  Adam didn't "come to life" until after God "breathed" into him his own spirit.  Our minds can not put our spirit out, but they can "veil" it.  I believe that's what the resurrection is all about, it's about my spirit rising "up" to it's original and rightful place on the throne within me from beneath the veil of my mind/soul.  

Adam was not a walking soul, he was a "living" soul.  But when he received from his Eve, it wasn't "just" the fruit that messed the aligment up.  Adam didn't pick fruit for himself.  he received from his "Eve".  He was the one who had authority over her, but he submitted to her and the moment he let his Eve, his mind, feed his spirit, it immediately separated them from the presence of God.  It brought death.  I would venture to say perhaps he was no longer a living soul, but he became a walking dead man.

Psalm 133
1 Behold, how good and how pleasant it is for brethren to dwell together in unity!

[Molly]

Matthew 16:26
For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?



"in exchange" [for his soul]

G465
ἀντάλλαγμα
antallagma
an-tal'-ag-mah
From a compound of G473 and G236; an equivalent or ransom: - in exchange.

[rosered]

Hmmm . . .both man and animals were made out of the same mold.  God formed both out of the earth.  Only Eve was created from man.  If my soul "is" my spirit, or if my soul is the predominant part of "me". . .where does the "old man" that must die in order for "me" to receive life fit in this?  What is my "old man"?

Job 40:15 Behold now behemoth, which I made with thee; he eateth grass as an ox.

  Hebrew 930  bĕhemowth
In form a plural or בְּהֵמָה (H929), but really a singular of Egyptian derivation
bĕhemah
From an unused root (probably meaning to be mute)
) beast, cattle, animal

a) beasts (coll of all animals)

b) cattle, livestock (of domestic animals)

c) wild beasts

Gen 2:19 And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought [them] unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that [was] the name thereof.

after reading Job 40    this beast was the begining of Gods ways 19He is the chief of the ways of God: he that made him can make his sword to approach unto him.

 lots there about the  beast and man Ecc 3:19 For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all [is] vanity. All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again.Ecc 3:21 Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?

[Molly]

But that was covenant works for covenant Israel, for us, by Grace, "We have life becase Jesus chose it and gave it to us freely" The entire Torah is the focus of the creation of the OLD COVENANT.

It was always the same covenant--Christ was slain from the foundation of the world--given to Abraham by promise.

But, man decided he wanted to do it 'by self' [as a two year old used to say to me].


And, those that hate God love death.  They cannot and will not choose life.   Man cannot do it by self.

[Dallas]

It was always the same covenant

there are three major covenants, the everlasting-the law-the new...which are you talking about?

[Molly]

It was always the same covenant

there are three major covenants, the everlasting-the law-the new...which are you talking about?

The everlasting covenant which encompasses the other two.




Genesis 17:7
And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee.



Galatians 3:16
Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

[Cardinal]

I believe that "the soul" had to do with the establishment of the covenant. So, in the NT, he who wants to "gain the whole world" (status in the covenant) will LOSE his soul, i.e., his position in the covenant. If he wanted to follow Christ, one had to "lose his soul" for Christ's sake; in other words, volutarily. He had to willingly choose Christ by giving up "his soul," i.e., his position in the covenant.

I believe that this is proved out by the verse in Hebrews 4:12 which says, "12for the reckoning of God is living, and working, and sharp above every two-edged sword, and piercing unto the dividing asunder both of soul and spirit, of joints also and marrow, and a discerner of thoughts and intents of the heart;" (YLT). The word, or reckoning of God divides "soul" from "spirit;" in other words, it is the job of God's reckoning to divide those who sought to hold onto their status in the covenant (soul) from those who "walked in the spirit," i.e. gave up their soul for Christ's sake.  "

:cloud9: I don't think I get the point they are trying to make here.....

The establishment of the covenant IS the dividing asunder of soul from Spirit. In the same way that the animal was cut into 2 pieces and then the furnace walked between them. Without the shedding of blood there is no remissions for sins.

The blood was walked thru with the underlying message that if the covenant was broken by either party, their blood would be required.

Eve was taken out of Adam (cut) dividing them, and then the Word came ("furnace walked thru) to give the conditions of the covenant that was established (do eat, don't eat). As the two said after He appeared and talked with them on the road, did our hearts not BURN within us?

They broke the covenant and they "died", ie. their blood was required, Adam "lost" his soul/Eve. For what shall it profit a man to gain the whole world but lose his soul?

That Adam had covenant knowledge was shown later by what his sons did. Blessings....

[Dallas]

The everlasting covenant which encompasses the other two.

That's not true. The Law covenant has nothing to do with the everlasting covenant, nor the peace covenant(new).

The everlasting was dealing with garden issues and was promised in Genesis 3. The Law was initiated in Exodus 19, and the end to the law covenant was intitiated in Jerimiah 31:31 and was fulfilled in the Birth/circumscion of Christ.

The law covenant and the new covenant/peace, had beginnings and endings, the everlasting had a beginning and no ending.

The everlasting covenant was dealing with soul/spirit issues, the other two was dealing with sin until...

[Molly]

The Law covenant has nothing to do with the everlasting covenant, ..

33But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

--Jer 31

The law covenant and the new covenant/peace, had beginnings and endings, the everlasting had a beginning and no ending.

OK, I acknowledge you can look at it like that.  I just see the others as being the fine print in the one great covenant between God and man, in which God will carry out himself in all the details.

[Dallas]

OK, I acknowledge you can look at it like that.  I just see the others as being the fine print in the one great covenant between God and man, which God will carry out himself in all the details.

I understand how you see it, I just think, that to keep up bible literacy it's important to not blend it up. Especially in topic sensitive conversations like this.

God was dealing with soul/spirit issues through one promise (everlasting), and the deeds of man through another.

[Nathan]

Matthew 22
36Master, which is the great commandment in the law?

37Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.

38This is the first and great commandment.

39And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

40On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.


I'm not following you on this Dallas . . . the separation of covenants.  To understand this literally, does not one fold into the other?

[Dallas]

Matthew 22
36Master, which is the great commandment in the law?

37Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.

38This is the first and great commandment.

39And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

40On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

I'm not following you on this Dallas . . . the separation of covenants.  To understand this literally, does not one fold into the other?

This is one covenant, The law which governs behavior. "The old covenant" The "New Covenant" which is related to that but is completley different brought about the end of the judgment of behaviour.

The everlasting covenant is dealing with man's diminished soul/spirit as a result of death, the restoration covenant.