I am in need of some defining. I understand the soul dies, and the spirit returns to the God who gave it.
From Gen. 2:7 I take it that man became a living soul, yet in Gen.1:20,24, 30 there is living. A soul is, I understand is a breathing creature. Like there were 18 souls saved from the burning building. O I also can understand that blesses my soul. But soul is not my spirit.
Do animals have souls?
Spirit is God, and of God, so is the breath of life. Is there a difference, if so what may it be?
And Lev. 26: 11 says God has a soul?
I know many questions. Thanks in advance for any help to unweave my web.
Peace and Love Through Jesus
Is Jesus Christ not the soul of God?
QuoteIs Jesus Christ not the soul of God?
Colossians 2:9 "For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form"
Jesus was the embodiment of God, in the physical body sense...
The soul, as was understood in a Hebrew sense was the mind/emotions and desire of a person. The spirit of a person is that which has the energy/drive/unction to accomplish and sustain life.
Thusly a person is soul, body and spirit. That's also a big part of the trinity idea...the mind and will of God is within the father Character (in the garden of gethsemane Jesus says, not my will be done but yours), The spirit of God is motion/movement of God's will, and of course Jesus the body of God.
John 3:16
16For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son,...
1 John 3:16
16Hereby perceive we the love of God, because he laid down his life for us: ...
"life"
G5590
ψυχή
psuchē
psoo-khay'
From G5594; breath, that is, (by implication) spirit, abstractly or concretely (the animal sentient principle only; thus distinguished on the one hand from G4151, which is the rational and immortal soul; and on the other from G2222, which is mere vitality, even of plants: these terms thus exactly correspond respectively to the Hebrew [H5315], [H7307] and [H2416]: - heart (+ -ily), life, mind, soul, + us, + you.
We know love by this, that He laid down His soul for us; and we ought to lay down our souls for the brethren. (1 John 3:16).
Quote from: micah7:9 on April 28, 2010, 02:23:43 AM
I am in need of some defining. I understand the soul dies, and the spirit returns to the God who gave it.
From Gen. 2:7 I take it that man became a living soul, yet in Gen.1:20,24, 30 there is living. A soul is, I understand is a breathing creature. Like there were 18 souls saved from the burning building. O I also can understand that blesses my soul. But soul is not my spirit.
Do animals have souls?
Spirit is God, and of God, so is the breath of life. Is there a difference, if so what may it be?
And Lev. 26: 11 says God has a soul?
I know many questions. Thanks in advance for any help to unweave my web.
Peace and Love Through Jesus
I'm not sure where you heard the soul dies . . . I guess one would have to first define what "death" meant to them, for me, it's to separate, which in this case, at our physical death, there is a separation, but I believe my soul continues to exist, just not on this body of flesh. I believe my soul is in connection with my spirit in that my soul is what gives my spirit it's personality. The traditional understanding of what your soul is, is your mind, will and emotion, for me, that's also the definition of what my personality is.
As far as where our spirit goes after we physically die, I do believe you're pulling this from the following passage . . .
Eccl.12: 7Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.
I also believe animals do have personalities. Are there animals in heaven? That's usually the next question that one leads to. And for me, considering the fact that when there was a revelation of a cherubim or seraphim that these creatures were actually a combination of our known animals, I would have to say that there are at least some sort of animal representation in the spirit realm. There was the ox, lion, eagle and man that made up the identity of these mystical beings. If this was in the spirit, then I'd have to say, the animals we see here on earth are actually replicas of what's in the spirit realm.
Just a thought.
Quote from: micah7:9 on April 28, 2010, 02:23:43 AM
I am in need of some defining. I understand the soul dies, and the spirit returns to the God who gave it.
From Gen. 2:7 I take it that man became a living soul, yet in Gen.1:20,24, 30 there is living. A soul is, I understand is a breathing creature. Like there were 18 souls saved from the burning building. O I also can understand that blesses my soul. But soul is not my spirit.
Do animals have souls?
Spirit is God, and of God, so is the breath of life. Is there a difference, if so what may it be?
And Lev. 26: 11 says God has a soul?
The way I understand it from Jewish scholars is that man has an animal spirit and a human spirit.
http://www.experiencefestival.com/nephesh => animal soul
QuoteNephesh (Hebrew, Jewish). Breath of life. Anima, Mens, Vita, Appetites. This term is used very loosely in the Bible. It generally means prana "life"; in the Kabbalah it is the animal passions and the animal Soul.
http://www.apologeticspress.org/articles/448
http://www.angelfire.com/oh/turkishangora/gate/nephesh.html
i thought the soul is the person, the being, we are a soul not that we have a soul.
we are a soul that has a spirit.
it is also my belief that only adam had the breath of life breathed into him.
:2c:
Animals are alive too. So I would guess they have teh breath of life too.
If not it would mean not all life comes from God.
11And I set my tabernacle among you: and my soul shall not abhor you.
12And I will walk among you, and will be your God, and ye shall be my people.
--Lev 26
Isaiah 42:1
Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles.
21And in his name shall the Gentiles trust.
--Mat 12
Quote from: chuckt on April 28, 2010, 04:37:55 PM
i thought the soul is the person, the being, we are a soul not that we have a soul.
we are a soul that has a spirit.
it is also my belief that only adam had the breath of life breathed into him.
:2c:
Because this scenerio would contrast the original order of things established in Genesis, at least for me anyway, in that spirit is above flesh, I'm not as inclined to agree that I "am" a soul that "has" a spirit as much as I would choose to understand that I "am" a spirit that has a soul. Spirit has authority over the soul. It's the soul that can be deceived. It's the spirit that's to "take captive" the thoughts of the mind.
"I" am the combination of these three elements in spirit, soul, and body. As I operate in this realm, none of these three can be separated from each other. The question is, which part of "me" is to be the dominant part? The soul?, The body/flesh? Or the Spirit? The realm I choose to walk/live in is what becomes my identity in "who" I am.
Great thread though.
...and the Bridegroom cometh.
we want to know and ask the same questions seeking God
and His face
my simple answer
the soul of man is his life Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man [of] the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
Mar 8:36 For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? Or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?
and the Spirit of God
Gen 1:2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness [was] upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
Exd 31:3 And I have filled him with the spirit of God, in wisdom, and in understanding, and in knowledge, and in all manner of workmanship,
there is little difference between the two words , except in the way its expressed ..
Quote from: NathanAs I operate in this realm, none of these three can be separated from each other.
Hebrews 4:12
For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
Quote from: Nathan on April 28, 2010, 05:16:01 PM
Quote from: chuckt on April 28, 2010, 04:37:55 PM
i thought the soul is the person, the being, we are a soul not that we have a soul.
we are a soul that has a spirit.
it is also my belief that only adam had the breath of life breathed into him.
:2c:
Because this scenerio would contrast the original order of things established in Genesis, at least for me anyway, in that spirit is above flesh, I'm not as inclined to agree that I "am" a soul that "has" a spirit as much as I would choose to understand that I "am" a spirit that has a soul. Spirit has authority over the soul. It's the soul that can be deceived. It's the spirit that's to "take captive" the thoughts of the mind.
"I" am the combination of these three elements in spirit, soul, and body. As I operate in this realm, none of these three can be separated from each other. The question is, which part of "me" is to be the dominant part? The soul?, The body/flesh? Or the Spirit? The realm I choose to walk/live in is what becomes my identity in "who" I am.
Great thread though.
its the soul that has to put on immortality, and this is done by the spirit of God.
dosent matter what body you are in you are still you bound to the limitations of whatever body.
you (( soul )) are in a flesh body, and YOU ((soul )) must walk in the spirit and not the flesh.
the spirit of christ is that which enables you (( soul )) to live unto God.
seems its the soul that is either earthly minded or heavenly minded at this time.
seems to me the the soul and flesh body are in close knit. and only Spirit can fix the problem....
chuck
44 It is sown a soulish body; it is roused a spiritual body.
45 If there is a soulish body, there is a spiritual also. Thus it is written also, The first man, Adam, "became a living soul:" the last Adam a vivifying Spirit.
46 But not first the spiritual, but the soulish, thereupon the spiritual.
47 The first man was out of the earth, soilish; the second Man is the Lord out of heaven.
48 Such as the soilish one is, such are those also who are soilish, and such as the Celestial One, such are those also who are celestials.
49 And according as we wear the image of the soilish, we should be wearing the image also of the Celestial.
50 Now this I am averring, brethren, that flesh and blood is not able to enjoy an allotment in the kingdom of God, neither is corruption enjoying the allotment of incorruption.
Quote45 If there is a soulish body, there is a spiritual also. Thus it is written also, The first man, Adam, "became a living soul:" the last Adam a vivifying Spirit.
[living]
"soul"G5590
ψυχή
psuchē
psoo-khay'
From G5594; breath, that is, (by implication) spirit, abstractly or concretely (the animal sentient principle only; thus distinguished on the one hand from G4151, which is the rational and immortal soul; and on the other from G2222, which is mere vitality, even of plants: these terms thus exactly correspond respectively to the Hebrew [H5315], [H7307] and [H2416]: - heart (+ -ily), life, mind,
soul, + us, + you.
[lifegiving]
"spirit"G4151
πνεῦμα
pneumapnyoo'-mah
From G4154; a current of air, that is, breath (blast) or a breeze; by analogy or figuratively a spirit, that is, (human) the rational soul, (by implication) vital principle, mental disposition, etc., or (superhuman) an angel, daemon, or (divine) God, Christ's spirit, the Holy spirit: - ghost, life, spirit (-ual, -ually), mind. Compare G5590.
yup, i personally like the hebrew words for soul and spirit...
peace
chuckt
Im inclined to go along with chuckt, from what I have been given to understand in Gen. 2:7 "man became a living soul." That means to me that "man" would be the first person, body, human, of the count to date, of how man milliions of "souls" have been. The word "soul" as time pasted, become a kind of chameleon, taking on many meanings. I believe souls have personaities and that when that resurrection comes that personality good or bad is what is important. But should I believe we shouls stay with how the word was used first...a soul being a person or a body that is breathing.
7And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
--Gen 2
"the breath"
H5397
נשׁמה
neshâmâh
nesh-aw-maw'
From H5395; a puff, that is, wind, angry or vital breath, divine inspiration, intellect or (concretely) an animal: - blast, (that) breath (-eth), inspiration, soul, spirit.
"of life"
H2416
חי
chay
khah'ee
From H2421; alive; hence raw (flesh); fresh (plant, water, year), strong; also (as noun, especially in the feminine singular and masculine plural) life (or living thing), whether literally or figuratively: - + age, alive, appetite, (wild) beast, company, congregation, life (-time), live (-ly), living (creature, thing), maintenance, + merry, multitude, + (be) old, quick, raw, running, springing, troop.
"man"
H120
אדם
'âdâm
aw-dawm'
From H119; ruddy, that is, a human being (an individual or the species, mankind, etc.): - X another, + hypocrite, + common sort, X low, man (mean, of low degree), person.
"became"
H1961
היה
hâyâh
haw-yaw'
A primitive root (compare H1933); to exist, that is, be or become, come to pass (always emphatic, and not a mere copula or auxiliary): - beacon, X altogether, be (-come, accomplished, committed, like), break, cause, come (to pass), continue, do, faint, fall, + follow, happen, X have, last, pertain, quit (one-) self, require, X use.
"a living"
H2416
חי
chay
khah'ee
From H2421; alive; hence raw (flesh); fresh (plant, water, year), strong; also (as noun, especially in the feminine singular and masculine plural) life (or living thing), whether literally or figuratively: - + age, alive, appetite, (wild) beast, company, congregation, life (-time), live (-ly), living (creature, thing), maintenance, + merry, multitude, + (be) old, quick, raw, running, springing, troop.
"soul"
H5315
נפשׁ
nephesh
neh'-fesh
From H5314; properly a breathing creature, that is, animal or (abstractly) vitality; used very widely in a literal, accommodated or figurative sense (bodily or mental): - any, appetite, beast, body, breath, creature, X dead (-ly), desire, X [dis-] contented, X fish, ghost, + greedy, he, heart (-y), (hath, X jeopardy of) life (X in jeopardy), lust, man, me, mind, mortality, one, own, person, pleasure, (her-, him-, my-, thy-) self, them (your) -selves, + slay, soul, + tablet, they, thing, (X she) will, X would have it.
Why does it say adam became a living soul instead of just adam became a soul?
Hmmm . . .both man and animals were made out of the same mold. God formed both out of the earth. Only Eve was created from man. If my soul "is" my spirit, or if my soul is the predominant part of "me". . .where does the "old man" that must die in order for "me" to receive life fit in this? What is my "old man"?
Quote from: Nathan on April 28, 2010, 07:20:46 PM
Hmmm . . .both man and animals were made out of the same mold. God formed both out of the earth. Only Eve was created from man. If my soul "is" my spirit, or if my soul is the predominant part of "me". . .where does the "old man" that must die in order for "me" to receive life fit in this? What is my "old man"?
Indeed!
That is a question isnt it, "why was man called and living soul and not just a soul."
Quote from: Nathan on April 28, 2010, 07:20:46 PM
Hmmm . . .both man and animals were made out of the same mold. God formed both out of the earth. Only Eve was created from man. If my soul "is" my spirit, or if my soul is the predominant part of "me". . .where does the "old man" that must die in order for "me" to receive life fit in this? What is my "old man"?
Hi N.
for me i dont think the soul snd spirit is the same thing.
i think the oldman is the soul that is of the earth, earthly/worldly minded carnalminded, and it is Christ Jesus who ""vivifies"" the soul to God.
Rom 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
for me the ""MIND"" is the same as soul..YOU....
thus not only is our mind/soul ""vivified"" unto God, but we must continue to be renewed in the mind/soul.
Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind [is] enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
this really is a good thread no matter what.....
peace friends!
chuckt
Hebrews 4:12
For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
I would seem to me that this verse has much more in it than a continual quoting of it!
Quote from: micah7:9 on April 28, 2010, 07:28:03 PM
That is a question isnt it, "why was man called and living soul and not just a soul."
because he had not yet sinned, the soul that sins shall die!all souls belong to God
all persons belong to God.
chuckt
45And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
--1 Cor 15
What happened to the soul of the last Adam?
He laid it down for us. [1 John 3:16]
"laid down"
G5087
τίθημι
tithēmi
tith'-ay-mee
A prolonged form of a primary word θέω theō (which is used only as an alternate in certain tenses); to place (in the widest application, literally and figuratively; properly in a passive or horizontal posture, and thus different from G2476, which properly denotes an upright and active position, while G2749 is properly reflexive and utterly prostrate): - + advise, appoint, bow, commit, conceive, give, X kneel down, lay (aside, down, up), make, ordain, purpose, put, set (forth), settle, sink down.
Psalm 135:
15The idols of the heathen are silver and gold, the work of men's hands.
16They have mouths, but they speak not; eyes have they, but they see not;
17They have ears, but they hear not; neither is there any breath in their mouths.
18They that make them are like unto them: so is every one that trusteth in them.
Interesting here we have beings with "no breath in their mouth", but yet physically alive
KJVLuk 9:60 Jesus said unto him, Let the dead bury their dead: but go thou and preach the kingdom of God.
"dust" doesn't have to be "literal" either:
Gen 18:27And Abraham answered and said, Behold, I pray, I have undertaken to speak to the Lord, and I am dust and ash.
1 Sam 2:8 He raises the poor from the dust; He lifts up the needy from the dunghill, to cause them to sit with nobles; yea, He causes them to inherit a throne of honor; for to Jehovah are the pillars of the earth; and He sets the habitable world on them.
1 Kings16:2 Since I have raised you up out of the dust, and made you ruler over My people Israel, and you have walked in the way of Jeroboam, and caused My people Israel to sin, to provoke Me to anger with their sins;
Job 4:19 How much more those that dwell in houses of clay; whose foundation is in the dust; they crush them before the moth!
Psalms 103:14 For He knows how we are made, remembering that we are dust.
Psalms 44:25 For our soul bows down to the dust; our belly holds fast to the earth.
2 Samuel 22:43 And I beat them as the dust of the earth; I crushed them small as the mire of the streets; I spread them out.
I like you're take on this ChuckT . . .and it appears that as this thread advances, the truth does seem to be emerging out of this. Without the quickening breath of life in us, we are walking dead. Jesus mentioned this as well when he stated "let the dead bury the dead". The spirit is life. The mind is at emnity with God, who is spirit and life. Adam didn't "come to life" until after God "breathed" into him his own spirit. Our minds can not put our spirit out, but they can "veil" it. I believe that's what the resurrection is all about, it's about my spirit rising "up" to it's original and rightful place on the throne within me from beneath the veil of my mind/soul.
Adam was not a walking soul, he was a "living" soul. But when he received from his Eve, it wasn't "just" the fruit that messed the aligment up. Adam didn't pick fruit for himself. he received from his "Eve". He was the one who had authority over her, but he submitted to her and the moment he let his Eve, his mind, feed his spirit, it immediately separated them from the presence of God. It brought death. I would venture to say perhaps he was no longer a living soul, but he became a walking dead man.
Quote from: chuckt on April 28, 2010, 07:31:43 PM
Quote from: micah7:9 on April 28, 2010, 07:28:03 PM
That is a question isnt it, "why was man called and living soul and not just a soul."
because he had not yet sinned, the soul that sins shall die!
all souls belong to God
all persons belong to God.
chuckt
So there are 'living' souls and 'dead' souls?
The animals also have a soul--nephesh--but they don't seem to suffer that relationship between sin and death.
20And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven.--Gen 1
[the moving creature]
"that hath life"H5315
נפשׁ
nepheshneh'-fesh
From H5314; properly a breathing creature, that is, animal or (abstractly) vitality; used very widely in a literal, accommodated or figurative sense (bodily or mental): - any, appetite, beast, body, breath, creature, X dead (-ly), desire, X [dis-] contented, X fish, ghost, + greedy, he, heart (-y), (hath, X jeopardy of) life (X in jeopardy), lust, man, me, mind, mortality, one, own, person, pleasure, (her-, him-, my-, thy-) self, them (your) -selves, + slay, soul, + tablet, they, thing, (X she) will, X would have it.
Quote from: Nathan..and the moment he let his Eve, his mind, feed his spirit, it immediately separated them from the presence of God. It brought death. I would venture to say perhaps he was no longer a living soul, but he became a walking dead man.
and he did eat.
7And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked;
and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God amongst the trees of the garden.
9And the LORD God called unto Adam, and said unto him, Where art thou?
10And he said, I heard thy voice in the garden, and I was afraid, because I was naked; and I hid myself.
11And he said,
Who told thee that thou wast naked?
--Gen 3
QuoteSo there are 'living' souls and 'dead' souls?
YES!
Rom 6:13 Neither yield ye your members [as] instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members [as] instruments of righteousness unto God.
2Cr 5:14 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead:
a thought from a friend of mine:
"I understand that I may be alone here in this understanding, since I embrace Covenant Creation, but the text says that Adam was "formed" (a covenant word) from "the dust of the ground (i.e., humanity) and had the "breath of life" (ru'ah) breathed into him - he then became a living soul (psuche in the LXX).
I believe that "the soul" had to do with the establishment of the covenant. So, in the NT, he who wants to "gain the whole world" (status in the covenant) will LOSE his soul, i.e., his position in the covenant. If he wanted to follow Christ, one had to "lose his soul" for Christ's sake; in other words, volutarily. He had to willingly choose Christ by giving up "his soul," i.e., his position in the covenant.
I believe that this is proved out by the verse in Hebrews 4:12 which says, "12for the reckoning of God is living, and working, and sharp above every two-edged sword, and piercing unto the dividing asunder both of soul and spirit, of joints also and marrow, and a discerner of thoughts and intents of the heart;" (YLT). The word, or reckoning of God divides "soul" from "spirit;" in other words, it is the job of God's reckoning to divide those who sought to hold onto their status in the covenant (soul) from those who "walked in the spirit," i.e. gave up their soul for Christ's sake. "
Quote from: chuckt on April 28, 2010, 07:59:17 PM
QuoteSo there are 'living' souls and 'dead' souls?
YES!
Rom 6:13 Neither yield ye your members [as] instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members [as] instruments of righteousness unto God.
So it is the dead soul that is naked?
17Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:
18 I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see. --Rev 3
Quote from: Zeek"I understand that I may be alone here in this understanding, since I embrace Covenant Creation, but the text says that Adam was "formed" (a covenant word) from "the dust of the ground (i.e., humanity) and had the "breath of life" (ru'ah) breathed into him - he then became a living soul (psuche in the LXX).
I agree that Adam was a covenant man--
He was given a job to do--
15And the LORD God took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it. --Gen 2
And, he was given one commandment--
17But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die. --Gen 2
QuoteI believe that "the soul" had to do with the establishment of the covenant. So, in the NT, he who wants to "gain the whole world" (status in the covenant) will LOSE his soul, i.e., his position in the covenant. If he wanted to follow Christ, one had to "lose his soul" for Christ's sake; in other words, volutarily. He had to willingly choose Christ by giving up "his soul," i.e., his position in the covenant.
:thumbsup: :thumbsup:
as is what deuteronomy announced...
Deuteronomy 30:19 "I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, the blessing and the curse.
So choose life in order that you may live, you and your descendants"
But that was covenant works for covenant Israel, for us, by Grace, "We have life becase Jesus chose it and gave it to us freely" The entire Torah is the focus of the creation of the OLD COVENANT.
Good word, Zeek's friend.
Quote from: Nathan on April 28, 2010, 07:50:46 PM
I like you're take on this ChuckT . . .and it appears that as this thread advances, the truth does seem to be emerging out of this. Without the quickening breath of life in us, we are walking dead. Jesus mentioned this as well when he stated "let the dead bury the dead". The spirit is life. The mind is at emnity with God, who is spirit and life. Adam didn't "come to life" until after God "breathed" into him his own spirit. Our minds can not put our spirit out, but they can "veil" it. I believe that's what the resurrection is all about, it's about my spirit rising "up" to it's original and rightful place on the throne within me from beneath the veil of my mind/soul.
Adam was not a walking soul, he was a "living" soul. But when he received from his Eve, it wasn't "just" the fruit that messed the aligment up. Adam didn't pick fruit for himself. he received from his "Eve". He was the one who had authority over her, but he submitted to her and the moment he let his Eve, his mind, feed his spirit, it immediately separated them from the presence of God. It brought death. I would venture to say perhaps he was no longer a living soul, but he became a walking dead man.
Psalm 133
1 Behold, how good and how pleasant it is for brethren to dwell together in unity!
Matthew 16:26
For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?
"in exchange" [for his soul]
G465
ἀντάλλαγμα
antallagma
an-tal'-ag-mah
From a compound of G473 and G236; an equivalent or ransom: - in exchange.
Quote from: Nathan on April 28, 2010, 07:20:46 PM
Hmmm . . .both man and animals were made out of the same mold. God formed both out of the earth. Only Eve was created from man. If my soul "is" my spirit, or if my soul is the predominant part of "me". . .where does the "old man" that must die in order for "me" to receive life fit in this? What is my "old man"?
Job 40:15 Behold now behemoth,
which I made with thee; he eateth grass as an ox.
Hebrew 930 bĕhemowth
In form a plural or בְּהֵמָה (H929), but really a singular of Egyptian derivation
bĕhemah
From an unused root (probably
meaning to be mute)
) beast, cattle, animal
a) beasts (coll of all animals)
b) cattle, livestock (of domestic animals)
c)
wild beasts Gen 2:19 And
out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air;
and brought [them] unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that [was] the name thereof. after reading Job 40 this beast was the begining of Gods ways 19He is the
chief of the ways of God: he that made him can make his sword to approach unto him.
lots there about the beast and man Ecc 3:19 For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts;
even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all [is] vanity.
All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again.Ecc 3:21 Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?
QuoteBut that was covenant works for covenant Israel, for us, by Grace, "We have life becase Jesus chose it and gave it to us freely" The entire Torah is the focus of the creation of the OLD COVENANT.
It was always the same covenant--Christ was slain from the foundation of the world--given to Abraham by promise.
But, man decided he wanted to do it 'by self' [as a two year old used to say to me].
And, those that hate God love death. They cannot and will not choose life. Man cannot do it by self.
QuoteIt was always the same covenant
there are three major covenants, the everlasting-the law-the new...which are you talking about?
Quote from: Dallas on April 28, 2010, 08:49:47 PM
QuoteIt was always the same covenant
there are three major covenants, the everlasting-the law-the new...which are you talking about?
The everlasting covenant which encompasses the other two.
Genesis 17:7
And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee.
Galatians 3:16
Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.
Quote from: Zeek on April 28, 2010, 08:05:38 PM
I believe that "the soul" had to do with the establishment of the covenant. So, in the NT, he who wants to "gain the whole world" (status in the covenant) will LOSE his soul, i.e., his position in the covenant. If he wanted to follow Christ, one had to "lose his soul" for Christ's sake; in other words, volutarily. He had to willingly choose Christ by giving up "his soul," i.e., his position in the covenant.
I believe that this is proved out by the verse in Hebrews 4:12 which says, "12for the reckoning of God is living, and working, and sharp above every two-edged sword, and piercing unto the dividing asunder both of soul and spirit, of joints also and marrow, and a discerner of thoughts and intents of the heart;" (YLT). The word, or reckoning of God divides "soul" from "spirit;" in other words, it is the job of God's reckoning to divide those who sought to hold onto their status in the covenant (soul) from those who "walked in the spirit," i.e. gave up their soul for Christ's sake. "
:cloud9: I don't think I get the point they are trying to make here.....
The establishment of the covenant IS the dividing asunder of soul from Spirit. In the same way that the animal was cut into 2 pieces and then the furnace walked between them. Without the shedding of blood there is no remissions for sins.
The blood was walked thru with the underlying message that if the covenant was broken by either party, their blood would be required.
Eve was taken out of Adam (cut) dividing them, and then the Word came ("furnace walked thru) to give the conditions of the covenant that was established (do eat, don't eat). As the two said after He appeared and talked with them on the road, did our hearts not BURN within us?
They broke the covenant and they "died", ie. their blood was required, Adam "lost" his soul/Eve. For what shall it profit a man to gain the whole world but lose his soul?
That Adam had covenant knowledge was shown later by what his sons did. Blessings....
QuoteThe everlasting covenant which encompasses the other two.
That's not true. The Law covenant has nothing to do with the everlasting covenant, nor the peace covenant(new).
The everlasting was dealing with garden issues and was promised in Genesis 3. The Law was initiated in Exodus 19, and the end to the law covenant was intitiated in Jerimiah 31:31 and was fulfilled in the Birth/circumscion of Christ.
The law covenant and the new covenant/peace, had beginnings and endings, the everlasting had a beginning and no ending.
The everlasting covenant was dealing with soul/spirit issues, the other two was dealing with sin until...
QuoteThe Law covenant has nothing to do with the everlasting covenant, ..
33But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.--Jer 31
QuoteThe law covenant and the new covenant/peace, had beginnings and endings, the everlasting had a beginning and no ending.
OK, I acknowledge you can look at it like that. I just see the others as being the fine print in the one great covenant between God and man, in which God will carry out himself in all the details.
QuoteOK, I acknowledge you can look at it like that. I just see the others as being the fine print in the one great covenant between God and man, which God will carry out himself in all the details.
I understand how you see it, I just think, that to keep up bible literacy it's important to not blend it up. Especially in topic sensitive conversations like this.
God was dealing with soul/spirit issues through one promise (everlasting), and the deeds of man through another.
Matthew 22
36Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
37Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
38This is the first and great commandment.
39And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
40On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.
I'm not following you on this Dallas . . . the separation of covenants. To understand this literally, does not one fold into the other?
QuoteMatthew 22
36Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
37Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
38This is the first and great commandment.
39And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
40On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.
QuoteI'm not following you on this Dallas . . . the separation of covenants. To understand this literally, does not one fold into the other?
This is one covenant, The law which governs behavior. "The old covenant" The "New Covenant" which is related to that but is completley different brought about the end of the judgment of behaviour.
The everlasting covenant is dealing with man's diminished soul/spirit as a result of death, the restoration covenant.
Quote from: Cardinal on April 28, 2010, 09:03:19 PM
Quote from: Zeek on April 28, 2010, 08:05:38 PM
I believe that "the soul" had to do with the establishment of the covenant. So, in the NT, he who wants to "gain the whole world" (status in the covenant) will LOSE his soul, i.e., his position in the covenant. If he wanted to follow Christ, one had to "lose his soul" for Christ's sake; in other words, volutarily. He had to willingly choose Christ by giving up "his soul," i.e., his position in the covenant.
I believe that this is proved out by the verse in Hebrews 4:12 which says, "12for the reckoning of God is living, and working, and sharp above every two-edged sword, and piercing unto the dividing asunder both of soul and spirit, of joints also and marrow, and a discerner of thoughts and intents of the heart;" (YLT). The word, or reckoning of God divides "soul" from "spirit;" in other words, it is the job of God's reckoning to divide those who sought to hold onto their status in the covenant (soul) from those who "walked in the spirit," i.e. gave up their soul for Christ's sake. "
:cloud9: I don't think I get the point they are trying to make here.....
The establishment of the covenant IS the dividing asunder of soul from Spirit. In the same way that the animal was cut into 2 pieces and then the furnace walked between them. Without the shedding of blood there is no remissions for sins.
The blood was walked thru with the underlying message that if the covenant was broken by either party, their blood would be required.
Eve was taken out of Adam (cut) dividing them, and then the Word came ("furnace walked thru) to give the conditions of the covenant that was established (do eat, don't eat). As the two said after He appeared and talked with them on the road, did our hearts not BURN within us?
They broke the covenant and they "died", ie. their blood was required, Adam "lost" his soul/Eve. For what shall it profit a man to gain the whole world but lose his soul?
That Adam had covenant knowledge was shown later by what his sons did. Blessings....
I like this very much. Thank you :grin:
Quote from: micah7:9 on April 28, 2010, 10:09:38 PM
Quote from: Cardinal on April 28, 2010, 09:03:19 PM
Quote from: Zeek on April 28, 2010, 08:05:38 PM
I believe that "the soul" had to do with the establishment of the covenant. So, in the NT, he who wants to "gain the whole world" (status in the covenant) will LOSE his soul, i.e., his position in the covenant. If he wanted to follow Christ, one had to "lose his soul" for Christ's sake; in other words, volutarily. He had to willingly choose Christ by giving up "his soul," i.e., his position in the covenant.
I believe that this is proved out by the verse in Hebrews 4:12 which says, "12for the reckoning of God is living, and working, and sharp above every two-edged sword, and piercing unto the dividing asunder both of soul and spirit, of joints also and marrow, and a discerner of thoughts and intents of the heart;" (YLT). The word, or reckoning of God divides "soul" from "spirit;" in other words, it is the job of God's reckoning to divide those who sought to hold onto their status in the covenant (soul) from those who "walked in the spirit," i.e. gave up their soul for Christ's sake. "
:cloud9: I don't think I get the point they are trying to make here.....
The establishment of the covenant IS the dividing asunder of soul from Spirit. In the same way that the animal was cut into 2 pieces and then the furnace walked between them. Without the shedding of blood there is no remissions for sins.
The blood was walked thru with the underlying message that if the covenant was broken by either party, their blood would be required.
Eve was taken out of Adam (cut) dividing them, and then the Word came ("furnace walked thru) to give the conditions of the covenant that was established (do eat, don't eat). As the two said after He appeared and talked with them on the road, did our hearts not BURN within us?
They broke the covenant and they "died", ie. their blood was required, Adam "lost" his soul/Eve. For what shall it profit a man to gain the whole world but lose his soul?
That Adam had covenant knowledge was shown later by what his sons did. Blessings....
I like this very much. Thank you :grin:
:thumbsup: yes me too , I get this part as well Thanks !!! :icon_flower:
:cloud9: Glad it blessed y'all...... :HeartThrob:
Quote from: Molly on April 28, 2010, 04:58:20 PM
11And I set my tabernacle among you: and my soul shall not abhor you.
12And I will walk among you, and will be your God, and ye shall be my people.
--Lev 26
Isaiah 42:1
Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles.
21And in his name shall the Gentiles trust.
--Mat 12
Lev 26:11 And I will set my tabernacle among you: and my soul shall not abhor you.
This is saying God has a soul. What is God's soul? Are you saying the Word teaches that Jesus is the soul of God? I like that.
Quote from: micah7:9 on April 28, 2010, 07:28:03 PM
That is a question isnt it, "why was man called and living soul and not just a soul."
I've always thought that man was a dead soul until God breathed into his nostrils then he became a living soul? (Gen. 2:7)
CHB
KJVRom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death;
KJV1Th 5:23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
KJVMat 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
Note the Greek word for destroy also means lost.
KJVEze 18:4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.
So body and soul can/shall die.
Let's look at the spirit.
KJV2Co 7:1 Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.
KJV1Jo 4:6 We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.
KJVAct 16:16 And it came to pass, as we went to prayer, a certain damsel possessed with a spirit of divination met us, which brought her masters much gain by soothsaying:
KJV2Ti 1:7 For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind.
KJVRom 11:8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day.
KJVNum 5:14 And the spirit of jealousy come upon him, and he be jealous of his wife, and she be defiled: or if the spirit of jealousy come upon him, and he be jealous of his wife, and she be not defiled:
KJVHos 4:12 My people ask counsel at their stocks, and their staff declareth unto them: for the spirit of whoredoms hath caused them to err, and they have gone a whoring from under their God.
KJVRom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death;
Spirits also sin. So they also die....
Quote from: CHB on April 29, 2010, 04:14:56 AM
Quote from: micah7:9 on April 28, 2010, 07:28:03 PM
That is a question isnt it, "why was man called and living soul and not just a soul."
I've always thought that man was a dead soul until God breathed into his nostrils then he became a living soul? (Gen. 2:7)
CHB
YLTLev 1711 for the life of the flesh is in the blood, and I have given it to you on the altar, to make atonement for your souls; for it is the blood which maketh atonement for the soul.
All the red words are exactly the same in Hebrew.
נפשׁ
nephesh
BDB Definition:
1) soul, self, life, creature, person, appetite, mind, living being, desire, emotion, passion
1a) that which breathes, the breathing substance or being, soul, the inner being of man
1b) living being
1c) living being (with life in the blood)
1d) the man himself, self, person or individual
1e) seat of the appetites
1f) seat of emotions and passions
1g) activity of mind
1g1) dubious
1h) activity of the will
1h1) dubious
1i) activity of the character
1i1) dubious
Part of Speech: noun feminine
A Related Word by BDB/Strong's Number: from H5314
Same Word by TWOT Number: 1395a
נפשׁ
nâphash
BDB Definition:
1) (Niphal) to take breath, refresh oneself
Part of Speech: verb
A Related Word by BDB/Strong's Number: a primitive root
Same Word by TWOT Number: 1395
The soul is in the blood. But blood needs oxygen.
YLTGen 63 And Jehovah saith, `My Spirit doth not strive in man--to the age; in their erring they are flesh:' and his days have been an hundred and twenty years.
During the flood the breath was taken away. Drowned
YLTGen 722 all in whose nostrils is breath of a living spirit--of all that is in the dry land--have died.
Note that many (all?) translations "hide" the orginal words.
Breath=spirit
of life/of a living spirit/etc= simply means life
The spirit is
not life it's breath/wind/etc. Of course life and breath are very closely related but they are not the same.
neshâmâh
BDB Definition:
1) breath, spirit
1a) breath (of God)
1b) breath (of man)
1c) every breathing thing
1d) spirit (of man)
Part of Speech: noun feminine
A Related Word by BDB/Strong's Number: from H5395
Same Word by TWOT Number: 1433a
נשׁם
nâsham
BDB Definition:
1) to pant
1a) (Qal) to pant
1a1) of a woman in travail or labour
Part of Speech: verb
A Related Word by BDB/Strong's Number: a primitive root
Same Word by TWOT Number: 1433
So blood=soul gives life to the body. But the oxygen/wind keeps the blood alive.
:cloud9: Yeah, God made it pretty plain (to me) that the soul is in the blood. Abel's BLOOD cried out from the ground, the position of the soul without a body, AND an intercessor, Christ our Lord.
That's part of what's such a stunning reversal of pattern, about the Lord taking HIS blood into the Holy of Holies. My :2c:
Quote from: Cardinal on May 31, 2011, 05:43:47 PM
:cloud9: Yeah, God made it pretty plain (to me) that the soul is in the blood. Abel's BLOOD cried out from the ground, the position of the soul without a body, AND an intercessor, Christ our Lord.
That's part of what's such a stunning reversal of pattern, about the Lord taking HIS blood into the Holy of Holies. My :2c:
So are we to take from this that Abel's soul is alive in the ground? And, how would this work with the spirit of Abel?
Or, how does the blood of a dead man speak?
:cloud9: The spirit returns to the One who sent it; the soul stays trapped in whatever it did not overcome while in the body. They could not overcome THEN, because there was no revealed MEDIATOR between God and man. The souls were who He preached to. The soul itself is spiritual, ie. non-material, just not on the same level as the spirit, or obviously, THE Spirit.
The WATERS below the firmament are the souls. Waters speak of a flow of spirit. The RE-union of soul and spirit IS the first resurrection, and it doesn't matter if it happens in the body or out of it. This is what Paul called the "superior" ressurrection, ie. the one while still in the body. My :2c:
Quote from: CardinalThe soul itself is spiritual, ie. non-material, just not on the same level as the spirit, or obviously, THE Spirit.
So are these the souls we might call ghosts, or the souls in Tartarus or Ghenna? How would things be different today for the soul after the cross?
QuoteThe WATERS below the firmament are the souls. Waters speak of a flow of spirit. The RE-union of soul and spirit IS the first resurrection, and it doesn't matter if it happens in the body or out of it. This is what Paul called the "superior" ressurrection, ie. the one while still in the body
This confuses me a little. While in the body, would soul and spirit be separated? Wouldn't that only happen at death? I don't quite understand what you mean by the 'superior' resurrection.
To my understanding the superior resurection is teh first one. First fruits. Not all believers are first fruits.
Quote from: WhiteWings on May 31, 2011, 06:56:53 PM
To my understanding the superior resurection is teh first one. First fruits. Not all believers are first fruits.
I understand that, but Cardinal said it could happen in the body at the union of soul and spirit--so I have a question about that. Is our soul and spirit separated while we are in the body? Or is the union of something else?
Quote from: Cardinal on May 31, 2011, 05:43:47 PM:cloud9: Yeah, God made it pretty plain (to me) that the soul is in the blood.
No wonder some people don't want blood transfusions.
Quote from: WhiteWings on May 31, 2011, 07:20:07 PM
Quote from: Cardinal on May 31, 2011, 05:43:47 PM:cloud9: Yeah, God made it pretty plain (to me) that the soul is in the blood.
No wonder some people don't wasnt blood transfusions.
exactly. JW are one of those groups.
Quote from: Cardinal on May 31, 2011, 06:08:56 PM
:cloud9: The spirit returns to the One who sent it; the soul stays trapped in whatever it did not overcome while in the body. They could not overcome THEN, because there was no revealed MEDIATOR between God and man. The souls were who He preached to. The soul itself is spiritual, ie. non-material, just not on the same level as the spirit, or obviously, THE Spirit.
The WATERS below the firmament are the souls. Waters speak of a flow of spirit. The RE-union of soul and spirit IS the first resurrection, and it doesn't matter if it happens in the body or out of it. This is what Paul called the "superior" ressurrection, ie. the one while still in the body. My :2c:
Card it suddenyl dawned upon me that when you talk of dead souls, that you do not mean a ghostly spirit, since I beleive that the ghost part is the Spirit of man. I am not sure, but do you mean e.g let's say
Mary magdelene she dies, her spirit has been cleansed therefore she goes to heaven, but her soul and body goes to the dust and the souls thoughts have ceased. But her soul still needs to overcome her weaknesses, let's say for example only, since I don't know her - example lust. Ok so at the resurection, Mary magdelenes body and soul gets resurected but her soul must overcome the lust by living on earth in the 1000 year reign of Christ. I know you are not keen on 1000 years, but what else do I call it? the exact number of years is not my concern here.
Quote from: Molly on May 31, 2011, 06:49:14 PM
Quote from: CardinalThe soul itself is spiritual, ie. non-material, just not on the same level as the spirit, or obviously, THE Spirit.
So are these the souls we might call ghosts, or the souls in Tartarus or Ghenna? How would things be different today for the soul after the cross?
He is the mediator now and nothing can separate us from His love. He will come to them. The manifested sons of God are being raised up with the same "job", to set a groaning creation free. Why do you think it's worded that way, ie. groaning creation, and in another place speaks of travailing as A WOMAN travails? The creation IS the waters below the firmament. Our carnality is a veil that keeps us from realizing the state of our souls/creation. Once that veil was removed from Abel, his soul cried out from the ground.
QuoteThe WATERS below the firmament are the souls. Waters speak of a flow of spirit. The RE-union of soul and spirit IS the first resurrection, and it doesn't matter if it happens in the body or out of it. This is what Paul called the "superior" ressurrection, ie. the one while still in the body
This confuses me a little. While in the body, would soul and spirit be separated? Wouldn't that only happen at death? I don't quite understand what you mean by the 'superior' resurrection.
Yes they are separated, because the unclean thing (soul ladden with sins) cannot enter into His presence. For this reason, as a type, women were not allowed in the priesthood to make offerings, because the soul is feminine in nature.
The priesthood realm is symbolically as the firmament (inner court). It's the second part of the 3 part pattern, just as the firmament is the second part of the 3 part pattern given pertaining to the waters. The two trees were in the MIDST of the garden; the candlestick and the table of shewbread was in the MIDST of the tabernacle. Women were not allowed in, and following that pattern, neither are "menstrous" ie. unclean, souls.
A soul that has not birthed a son (ie. THE Son) is as a mentrous woman (which was another term dealing with IDOLATRY), which was considered unclean. This is also why, in reverse, the first to open the matrix (womb) was blessed.
This is what the marriage supper of the Lamb is all about, ie. He "marries" (a joining) Himself to our soul, after "she" goes thru the purification process (tribulation of the soul).
The resurrection Paul talked about is referred to as the "superior resurrection", ie. the one that takes place in the body. It's where he said he would not be unclothed (die) but rather clothed upon, corruption being swallowed up of life.
This is the high calling in Christ Jesus that Paul talks about, also, that he was striving for, because it is the same as the High Priest's office, in that they will have the ability to remove sins. What makes this even more remarkable, is he was not of the tribe of Levi (he was of Benjamin), either!
So he was fully aware of what he was saying, and the obvious reason why the Pharisees hated him the most: he wasn't JUST saying Christ took the priesthood from you all, but HIS children will also walk in the authority of the HIGH PRIEST'S OFFICE. THIS IS THE SONS OF GOD ROMANS 8 TALKS ABOUT, a "kingdom" of priests. My :2c:
Quote from: WhiteWings on May 31, 2011, 07:20:07 PM
Quote from: Cardinal on May 31, 2011, 05:43:47 PM:cloud9: Yeah, God made it pretty plain (to me) that the soul is in the blood.
No wonder some people don't wasnt blood transfusions.
:cloud9: Exactly. I've read stories of people who got organs from the dead, later searched out their relatives, and found out a "mysterious" craving for a particular food that the organ recipient didn't even like (a craving that started after the organ transplant), was the organ donor's favorite food. :mshock:
There's more to this than meets the eye..... :winkgrin:
So if someone recieves 10 blood transfusions they have 10 different souls?
:dontknow:
Quote from: CardinalYes they are separated, because the unclean thing (soul ladden with sins) cannot enter into His presence. For this reason, as a type, women were not allowed in the priesthood to make offerings, because the soul is feminine in nature.
Just to clarify, so you are saying that the spirit can enter into his presence because it can be cleansed by the blood of the Lamb, but the soul cannot until the marriage of the soul with Christ? In other words, the spirit does not require marriage but the soul does? Won't this marriage happen at the time of the first resurrection for everyone at the same time?
QuoteThe resurrection Paul talked about is referred to as the "superior resurrection", ie. the one that takes place in the body. It's where he said he would not be unclothed (die) but rather clothed upon, corruption being swallowed up of life.
But didn't this superior resurrection also include the glorified body? I'm still considering this idea of clothes. Jesus tells us to ask certain things of him so we won't be found 'naked.' We see in Gen 2, they are naked but not ashamed, whereas in Gen 3 they are naked but ashamed. We see that when Jesus is arrested in the garden, a certain young man runs away naked, losing his clothes. Obviously, clothes has something to do with being covered, but does it mean different things in different circumstances?
Isn't the ultimate meaning to be clothed in a glorified body? Are all resurrected bodies also glorified? Was Paul including a glorified body in his idea of superior resurrection?
QuoteThis is the high calling in Christ Jesus that Paul talks about, also, that he was striving for, because it is the same as the High Priest's office, in that they will have the ability to remove sins. What makes this even more remarkable, is he was not of the tribe of Levi (he was of Benjamin), either!
Do you think it means high priest or a priest on the order of Melchizedek? Isn't there just one high priest, i.e. Jesus?
BTW, are you aware that Catholic priests, when they are ordained, are told that they are priests forever on the order of Melchizedek and also given the ability to forgive sin? I just heard that yesterday. In light of what you are saying, wouldn't this seem to be stepping over the bounds of what man could achieve within a church setting? Wouldn't that be up to God?
I know you don't have a lot of time, Cardinal. Anything would be appreciated. :icon_king:
:cloud9: Going to work shortly, but......the spirit came from Him which is why it returns to Him.
Not surprised about the Catholic priests, since it says NO MAN takes this honor unto himself. Yes, there is one High Priest, but He is busy building mini versions of Himself, ie. until Christ be FORMED in you.
The greater works He said we would do, is to bring the soul into union with the Spirit. Like all works, this is done thru His Holy Spirit.
Matthew 9:6 KJV - But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins, (then saith he to the sick of the palsy,) Arise , take up thy bed, and go unto thine house
We are told that we cannot see the kingdom of heaven unless we be born of the water (flesh/law/waters below the firmament = son of man) AND born of the blood (Spirit/grace and mercy/firmament = son of God).
The whole purpose of gaining His Spirit is to grow into fully matured sons of God. Got to run....
Quote from: Cardinal on June 01, 2011, 02:43:32 AM
:cloud9: Going to work shortly, but......the spirit came from Him which is why it returns to Him.
Not surprised about the Catholic priests, since it says NO MAN takes this honor unto himself. Yes, there is one High Priest, but He is busy building mini versions of Himself, ie. until Christ be FORMED in you.
The greater works He said we would do, is to bring the soul into union with the Spirit. Like all works, this is done thru His Holy Spirit.
Matthew 9:6 KJV - But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins, (then saith he to the sick of the palsy,) Arise , take up thy bed, and go unto thine house
We are told that we cannot see the kingdom of heaven unless we be born of the water (flesh/law/waters below the firmament = son of man) AND born of the blood (Spirit/grace and mercy/firmament = son of God).
The whole purpose of gaining His Spirit is to grow into fully matured sons of God. Got to run....
:cloud9: Let us run with patience the race set before us..... The wind blows where it wills, and we hear the sound of it, but we don't know where it is going or from whence it cam..... SO IT IS with everyone who is born of the Spirit.
http://www.bereanbiblesociety.org/ohair/HTML/UROC/chapter63.html
People...you are not getting it.
The first 4 times Nephesh was used in Genesis was used for aminals and fish. Only the 5th time was it used for man. Nephesh really means life. That is it. ALL life comes from God. ALL life. Period.
God IS Spirit. Not a spirit. You don't have your own spirit. There is no spirit outside of God. He is not a major spirit amongst billions of smaller spirits. There is only ONE spirit. God. The life in you belongs to God. It is his. It belongs to him and we just borrow it for a spell. When we die, it returns to it's proper owner. No life can exist unless it has been seeded by his spirit. A portion of Godliness. God himself resides in all of us.
Now your soul, who you are, comes from the dust. That is where the carnal was seeded by God in the first place. Seeded IN HOPE.
Rom 8:20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
Made subject to vanity. Not willingly....No free will. No choice. You were made carnal. The process of dying to the flesh is the transformation into the incorruptable. The dealings of God change us.
Now when you die, you don't own your soul. You don't go to God. You don't go to purgatory. You don't overcome or do anything after death.
Psa 115:17 The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence.
Sheol or Hades both mean the grave, but they really refer not to the hole in the ground but rather the state of the body in the ground. Those who die, close their eyes and await their new bodies. For them it will seems like a momentary closing of their eyes.
The bible says that in the ground you are asleep. For a time. Now the first fruits or the first resurrection refers to those who HAVE died to the flesh. They have attained the prize. These are the ones who will judge angels. They are 'Huios', the fully matured Sons of God. Not the 'Tetnos' or children or immature Sons. The rest await the second resurrection. Where they are purged in the Lake of Fire. Only the mature, the perfected will be endowed with the authority and power of God for the next aion. This is to the measure and the stature of Christ within them. Not that they seek the power for powers sake, but it is a by-product of the fullness of Christ within them. The nature of Christ IS the power of Christ.
Please try not to over complicate this. Sometimes too much knowledge gets in the way of wisdom and truth.
History, including church history is full of the thoughts of people who over-thought. Who couldn't just BE in the moment, thus they miss the lesson.
Psa 119:105 NUN. Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path.
His word is not lighting your whole journey. Just your next step. The secret to success in Christ is "the next step". Not the next mile. Focus on the path and the lesson before you, otherwise you just keep going through the desert and never come into the promised land. Forever wandering. Never learning the lesson and doing it the extra hard way. There IS a more excellent way. Too much pondering on what God is NOT dealing with RIGHT NOW is where all of these foolish thoughts lead. They bring confusion and God is not the author of confusion.
2Ti 2:16 But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.
This is where all of the blasphemous doctrines of devils have come from. The foolish imaginings of man. Trinity, hell, rapture, dispensationalism. They all have perverted the understanding of the church over the years. People over-thinking the word. If you don't understand it now, don't make it up in your head now. But be patient because the understanding WILL come in the dealings of God as he inspires and illuminates it in your life. That IS what overcoming is. Being dealt with and coming out at the other end different than when you first started.
Be IN the moment because the hand of God's purpose holds you up in THIS moment. You overcome TODAY. Not afar off. Not one day.
True worship is obedience. To make obeisance before you God and King.
Joh 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
Joh 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
Praise the Lord.
Num 14:24 "But My servant Caleb, because he has had a different spirit and has followed Me fully, I will bring into the land which he entered, and his descendants shall take possession of it.
Psa 77:6 I call to remembrance my song in the night: I commune with mine own heart: and my spirit made diligent search.
Into thine hand I commit my spirit: thou hast redeemed me, O LORD God of truth.
(Psa 31:5)
Rom 1:9 For God is my witness, whom I serve with my spirit in the gospel of his Son, that without ceasing I make mention of you always in my prayers;
In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,
(1Co 5:4)
1Co 14:14 For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.
Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,
(Heb 12:1)
But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
(Heb 12:22-23)
These scriptures and a good many others may present a slightly different perspective.
While I think what you presented on abiding, and on the nature of our spirit(coming from God and returning to God) are beautiful and true I also think you may have surpassed to some extent the scriptures in "oversimplifying" a couple things.
I think a reasonable person could gather from these verses that there is some personal possession "freely given by God" and a union between the spirit of God and the heart of man that is individual to the person receiving it.
I also see that the "great cloud of witnesses" surrounding us are the "spirits of righteous men made perfect(complete whole)"
While our direct understanding of Sheol may stop "at the dirt", I do not think that means that the entire understanding of Sheol is concluded within your definition of it.
Also, obedience requires a measure of free will, and some of those verses indicate that (as Caleb had "a different spirit", and Paul served God "in my spirit") there is possibly a differentiation between the spirit of one person and another and that difference may reside at the "heart" of the person- where all these elements, "spirit, soul, body" are united, and where the will of man abides.
My point is not to disagree with you, altho I do in some measure- just to point out that it is the scriptures that we depend upon as final arbiter, by the illumination of the Holy Spirit and the "mid-rash" of the brethren.
Anyone can present their perspective as the "simple truth", not to be "over thought" or "complicated"- such declarations however do not make it so.
If it IS SO, then it can be found in the scroll. If there are apparently contradictory witnesses in the scroll, then the saints engage in discussion, with open minds and hearts(hopefully :o), in order to resolve understanding and find unity of faith.
IMO some of these "RESOLUTIONS" will include disclaimers such as, "Well, it may be just slightly this way, or just slightly that way. We believe that a person of good conscience and reason may hold either view, and we encourage that the saints not become contentious or divide over the issue. Amen"
It's all right if you don't get it. None of those scriptures you quoted comes into to conflict with what I said. While the Spirit is within you it is a part of you. Otherwise you are dead. My point was the heart of the matter. My quote on the creature was not a quote on free will and had you read it properly you would have seen that. It was about the world being made flawed and us having no say in it. But for some reason people on this site have issues with free will teachings. I don't know why. But some of your scriptures didn't actually mean spirit. They meant nature. Character. But the mysteries are not for everyone and not until God choose to reveal it to them, which is why he spoke in parables.
Thanks gasman....I enjoyed that :icon_king:
Quote from: gasman on October 16, 2012, 02:18:49 AM
It's all right if you don't get it. None of those scriptures you quoted comes into to conflict with what I said. While the Spirit is within you it is a part of you. Otherwise you are dead. My point was the heart of the matter. My quote on the creature was not a quote on free will and had you read it properly you would have seen that. It was about the world being made flawed and us having no say in it. But for some reason people on this site have issues with free will teachings. I don't know why. But some of your scriptures didn't actually mean spirit. They meant nature. Character. But the mysteries are not for everyone and not until God choose to reveal it to them, which is why he spoke in parables.
I didn't think those scriptures "came into conflict" with what you said. I wasnt presenting them in that light. I simply said they might provide the basis for a wider perspective. I also understood your point about having no say in being flawed. I agree that we had no say in that.(Ro. 8:23-28) My point about having a measure of free will was directed to understanding that I in "my spirit" may decide to do differently than another man decides in "his spirit" leading into that altho all spirits come from God, perhaps they maintain identity after being joined to a "soul" and that the joint is the "heart'. Afterwards they "return to God", not as undefined breaths awaiting reunion with body and soul, but as "the spirits of righteous men made perfect"- in those who, as you expressed well, actually "overcome".
Also, I was not addressing free will as an issue- I was indicating the individual will is an aspect of individual spirits. If you didn't get what I was saying, that may be my inadequacy in my sharing. As to whether "getting" your view, as presented, is "getting it" relating to the mysteries, well, I just want to leave that alone- I thought we were all seeking to edify the body, speaking the truth in love, growing up in all aspects into the Head.
all souls belong to God
I'm not having a crack at you man. But you are still confusing the spirit and soul together and they are 2 different things. The spirit or life which you have IS God. The problem we have is that we have been taught in church that we have a human spirit. Made up from the heresy of trinity. This is not true. God IS spirit. Not that he is made of spirit, but he is ALL spirit. There is no other spirit. That is what you feel inside you when revelation comes to you. That is what is quickened. His spirit bears witness to the truth within you.
Now choice...or thought is a part of the mind, which in turn is soulish. Nothing to do with spirit, other than the spirit speaks to your soul. Being righteous does not create a different creature within you. You are made the same way as any person. The mind, the will and the emotions ARE the soul. Not the spirit.
Ecc 9:2 All things come alike to all: there is one event to the righteous, and to the wicked; to the good and to the clean, and to the unclean; to him that sacrificeth, and to him that sacrificeth not: as is the good, so is the sinner; and he that sweareth, as he that feareth an oath.
As to deciding to do differently than another man, that is an incorrect understanding of the process of how the Grace of God works. You are inspired and led and the circumstances around your life are ordered according to his will and purposes. To bring you to the valley of decision. It is your individual trial or dealing. God meeting you as a person right where you need it. And you are presented with options. You as an individual. Not multiple people trying to solve the same puzzle. And they are all in the same boat. God is dealing with them as individuals as well. It helps to imagine that no-one else is exactly where you are right at this moment, even if there are similarities.
When you die...you sleep. That's it. If you are alive at the time of the first resurrection and have overcome the carnal within you, then you are transformed. If you have died, but have overcome, you are resurrected into your new body and the new aion and you bring the judgements of God for the aion. You are of the man-child company. The sons of God. The elect.
If not, you await the 2nd resurrection and are judged and purged, whether you were a christian or not.
Heb 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
I can forget sometimes that people haven't learned what I have learned and don't always have the pieces to make sense of the puzzle. I apologize if I made you feel I was having a go at you. I really wasn't. :Peace2:
gasman, these 2 links can be helpfull;
http://tentmaker.org/forum/rules-and-faq/free-willall-sovereign-and-the-trinity-discussions/msg102846/#msg102846
http://tentmaker.org/forum/rules-and-faq/posting-'as-i-understand-in-my-opinion-'/
Quote from: gasman on October 16, 2012, 05:33:20 AM
I'm not having a crack at you man. But you are still confusing the spirit and soul together and they are 2 different things. The spirit or life which you have IS God. The problem we have is that we have been taught in church that we have a human spirit. Made up from the heresy of trinity. This is not true. God IS spirit. Not that he is made of spirit, but he is ALL spirit. There is no other spirit. That is what you feel inside you when revelation comes to you. That is what is quickened. His spirit bears witness to the truth within you.
Now choice...or thought is a part of the mind, which in turn is soulish. Nothing to do with spirit, other than the spirit speaks to your soul. Being righteous does not create a different creature within you. You are made the same way as any person. The mind, the will and the emotions ARE the soul. Not the spirit.
Ecc 9:2 All things come alike to all: there is one event to the righteous, and to the wicked; to the good and to the clean, and to the unclean; to him that sacrificeth, and to him that sacrificeth not: as is the good, so is the sinner; and he that sweareth, as he that feareth an oath.
As to deciding to do differently than another man, that is an incorrect understanding of the process of how the Grace of God works. You are inspired and led and the circumstances around your life are ordered according to his will and purposes. To bring you to the valley of decision. It is your individual trial or dealing. God meeting you as a person right where you need it. And you are presented with options. You as an individual. Not multiple people trying to solve the same puzzle. And they are all in the same boat. God is dealing with them as individuals as well. It helps to imagine that no-one else is exactly where you are right at this moment, even if there are similarities.
When you die...you sleep. That's it. If you are alive at the time of the first resurrection and have overcome the carnal within you, then you are transformed. If you have died, but have overcome, you are resurrected into your new body and the new aion and you bring the judgements of God for the aion. You are of the man-child company. The sons of God. The elect.
If not, you await the 2nd resurrection and are judged and purged, whether you were a christian or not.
Heb 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
I can forget sometimes that people haven't learned what I have learned and don't always have the pieces to make sense of the puzzle. I apologize if I made you feel I was having a go at you. I really wasn't. :Peace2:
No apology necessary, discussion welcomed. I am not in the least offended, and I am not sure you have learned all that you think you have learned- I have to test it for myself :o), of course, you understand that, knowing all that you kno LOL.
I am not confusing soul and spirit(in my own view at least). I see them as separate, but joined at the heart. In my view the heart of man is the hub of the wheel, or the core of the sphere of his being- the center, or throne or highest seat of consciousness. I believe the spirit soul and body are conjoined in the heart.
According to the Bible Gen. 2:7 man does not have a soul, nor was man given a soul, man is a soul..a living soul. Should that truth be understood, the the value of what a soul is, is simple. When we understand that the sentient being is what drives the emotions and all senses it becomes welcome. A soul is a breathing creature. A body of dust(flesh) without the breath of the creator, is naught. It is dust formed and breath breathed that makes as soul, a living soul. The trinity teaching is absolved with that truth. Man is made of dust and breath, period. Or the Bible is incorrect from it's beginning. Peace and love Through Jesus
Not only that Micah. So is Free-will. If you believe in UR then you cannot believe in Free-will. They are an anathema to each other. If there is a choice to follow God then there is no need for the salvation of all. I don't think that we should be hiding from the word because it causes some disagreement. I think it would benefit the people who organize this forum to realize this. You know the truth about UR. So what? What next? You have to move forward. You cannot spend the rest of your christian life regurgitating the same stuff over and over again. Trying to squeeze the last bit of desperate inspiration from each truth. I want to walk in the whole wisdom of God. Not just one aspect of it.
And the heart is the soul Eagle. The heart...the soul...the flesh...the carnal man...they are all the same thing. They are just different names describing the same thing. Not the spirit. Jesus doesn't live in your heart. Nowhere does it say we ask Jesus into our hearts. Our hearts are not the throne room of his temple. You are the temple of God because his life is in you. This is how Jeremiah describes the heart.
Jer 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?
One translation says "desperate to be wicked". There is nothing more deceitful or lying in all of creation than our hearts. It doesn't sound like a place that God would choose to inhabit. And the world says that the carnal mind is not subject to the laws of God, nor can it ever be.
Quote from: gasman on October 17, 2012, 09:38:45 AM
Not only that Micah. So is Free-will. If you believe in UR then you cannot believe in Free-will.
Depends on the extend of the free will.
Compare it with little children.
Most parents give them the choice (free will) to pick a red, green or blue ball to play with.
But the kitchen knives are off limits (retriction of the free will)
I don't even know where to begin with that Whitewings. That is silly beyond words. You talk as if you are talking to the children in your analogy. Myself, I have put aside childish ways. I am about my Fathers business. Free-will or Free Moral Agency is not about mere choices of ball colour. It concerns the sovereignty of God himself.
Quote from: gasman on October 17, 2012, 11:50:37 AM
I don't even know where to begin with that Whitewings.
Maybe some day, when you gain understanding, you will.
QuoteThat is silly beyond words.
Not silly. Just challanging your fantasy doctrine.
QuoteYou talk as if you are talking to the children in your analogy.
Correctly so. If God is Father who are we? His uncle?
QuoteMyself, I have put aside childish ways.
Really?
QuoteI am about my Fathers business. Free-will or Free Moral Agency is not about mere choices of ball colour. It concerns the sovereignty of God himself.
You obviously have
lot to learn.
The sage of the site speaks but says nothing.
John 1;10-13 " He was in the world and the world came into existence through Him, and the world knew Him not.
He came into His own possessions and His people recieved Him not home.
But as many as did receive Him he gave to them authority to become children of God, to them who were believing on his name:
who NOT of bloods,
NOR of the will of the flesh,
NOR of the will of man,
BUT were BORN OF GOD."
Seems to be making a pretty specific statement.
Quote from: gasman on October 17, 2012, 01:32:11 PMThe sage of the site speaks but says nothing.
Where is your support for your claims?
We can discuss this nicely. But you set the tone with your hostile replies. My guess is that you get hostile when you doctrine is challanged and you have no clue how to defend your claims.
Discuss or go away and play with your ball. :soccer:
Proverbs 16:9 In his heart a man plans his course, but the LORD determines his steps.
Quote from: Ross on October 17, 2012, 01:58:40 PM
John 1;10-13 " He was in the world and the world came into existence through Him, and the world knew Him not.
He came into His own possessions and His people recieved Him not home.
But as many as did receive Him he gave to them authority to become children of God, to them who were believing on his name:
who NOT of bloods,
NOR of the will of the flesh,
NOR of the will of man,
BUT were BORN OF GOD."
Seems to be making a pretty specific statement.
Yep, things aren't as black or white as some seem to believe.
Quote from: WhiteWings on October 17, 2012, 02:12:01 PM
Quote from: gasman on October 17, 2012, 01:32:11 PMThe sage of the site speaks but says nothing.
Where is your support for your claims?
We can discuss this nicely. But you set the tone with your hostile replies. My guess is that you get hostile when you doctrine is challanged and you have no clue how to defend your claims.
Discuss or go away and play with your ball. :soccer:
Proverbs 16:9 In his heart a man plans his course, but the LORD determines his steps.
I set the tone? I wasn't the one who came in like a school marm trying to correct a little child. You did that. You brought your 2 cents worth to a buck and a half conversation and you were found wanting. Very presumptuous. It is clear from your comments that you do not understand the scriptures on this, but that didn't stop you from speaking.
You didn't even get what the scripture that Ross posted means. Yet you added another 2 cents there. "Nor of the 'will' of the flesh, nor of the 'will' of man." You said it wasn't as black and white as people think, perhaps a dig at me, but there it is IN black and white.
Maybe because you have so many posts, you think this is your territory or something. I really don't care.
Now Micah, who did have a good grasp of the word brought a very good post. If you truly were interested in discussing the matter then you should have brought a posting of his standard. A senior poster on the site should know better. That would have been constructive and I would have received it so. But no...you had to bring coloured balls and kitchen knives. No scripture. Just an anecdote. And you want me to back up what I said? I quoted the scriptures. That is God's word on the matter.
And then you just quote proverbs which proves my point again. The Lord orders his steps...regardless of what man plans.
The Word of God confronts Whitewings. It brings conflict and change. The Kingdom of God suffers violence and the violent take it by force. I am not afraid of the process. And by the way. I was asked to play representative soccer when I was a teenager...so I know what to do with the ball.
What is this insulting and free will/trinity stuff? Maybe everyone currently discussing needs to review the links provided?
I hope we all get along...I like to hear more of what gasman has to say...
blessings :icon_king:
Quote from: gasman on October 17, 2012, 04:18:01 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on October 17, 2012, 02:12:01 PM
Quote from: gasman on October 17, 2012, 01:32:11 PMThe sage of the site speaks but says nothing.
Where is your support for your claims?
We can discuss this nicely. But you set the tone with your hostile replies. My guess is that you get hostile when you doctrine is challanged and you have no clue how to defend your claims.
Discuss or go away and play with your ball. :soccer:
Proverbs 16:9 In his heart a man plans his course, but the LORD determines his steps.
I set the tone?
Yes. Just read back a few post and you will see.
QuoteI wasn't the one who came in like a school marm trying to correct a little child. You did that.
You wrote:
QuoteIf you believe in UR then you cannot believe in Free-will. They are an anathema to each other.
I trying to give a different view with an example. Yes I at least gave an example. You just claimed something. You got a reply. Then the reply is silly beyond words, but you avoid explaining why. That's certainly setting a tone.
QuoteYou brought your 2 cents worth to a buck and a half conversation and you were found wanting. Very presumptuous. It is clear from your comments that you do not understand the scriptures on this, but that didn't stop you from speaking.
Again claims. But nothing to support it. Why am I found wanting? Because I don't agree with you? Yeah sure.
QuoteYou didn't even get what the scripture that Ross posted means. Yet you added another 2 cents there. "Nor of the 'will' of the flesh, nor of the 'will' of man." You said it wasn't as black and white as people think, perhaps a dig at me, but there it is IN black and white.
Yeah, that verse is in black and white. But it doesn't prove total (lack of) free will.
QuoteMaybe because you have so many posts, you think this is your territory or something. I really don't care.
Neither do I care how many post you have. I do care about the lack of supporting your views. Your nickname is chosen well. hot air.
QuoteNow Micah, who did have a good grasp of the word brought a very good post. If you truly were interested in discussing the matter then you should have brought a posting of his standard. A senior poster on the site should know better. That would have been constructive and I would have received it so. But no...you had to bring colored balls and kitchen knives. No scripture. Just an anecdote.
But it clearly shows how I view free will. But even that simple anecdote is beyond your grasp.
You just state free will isn't compatible with UR. Where are your verses?
(If you read the forum rules you would have known why I used an anecdote)
QuoteAnd you want me to back up what I said? I quoted the scriptures. That is God's word on the matter.
And then you just quote proverbs which proves my point again. The Lord orders his steps...regardless of what man plans.
I've read and reread the verses you posted. They don't prove your point. Proverbs proves my view.
Man plans something. That's the will of man. In the end God's will overrules everything. Also God plots out the 'main paths'. But mankind has limited free will.
QuoteThe Word of God confronts Whitewings. It brings conflict and change. The Kingdom of God suffers violence and the violent take it by force.
What do you think that means?
Quote from: jabcat on October 17, 2012, 07:12:45 PM
What is this insulting and free will/trinity stuff? Maybe everyone currently discussing needs to review the links provided?
No worries James. I posted my view in a clear way. Unless my post is really answered I'm done with gasman.
:Peace2:
Quote from: WhiteWings on October 17, 2012, 07:54:53 PM
Quote from: jabcat on October 17, 2012, 07:12:45 PM
What is this insulting and free will/trinity stuff? Maybe everyone currently discussing needs to review the links provided?
No worries James. I posted my view in a clear way. Unless my post is really answered I'm done with gasman.
:Peace2:
Thanks. :)
I don't feel the need to get the last word in all the time Whitewings, nor do I have to always prove that I am always right. Unless the Lord draws you, then you don't get to drink from the well. I will just leave a link to a very good article that anyone who is interested can look at for themselves. I have used the name for years. It has nothing to do with baked beans or farting. But I am used to people having a poke at me for it.
Here is the link. Please all go to it if you have questions on Free-will. You will see what I mean about UR and FR being the enemy of each other. And it is ALL scripture.
http://www.remnantbiblestudies.com/intropage_freewill.html
:banana: I like this banana.
Quote from: onlytruth on October 17, 2012, 07:24:07 PM
I hope we all get along...I like to hear more of what gasman has to say...
blessings :icon_king:
Thank you very much :banana: :banana: :banana:
I like to hear what gasman has to say also. I might not agree with everything he (or anybody for that matter) says, and I sure hope nobody agrees with everything I say, but I have respect for everyone, unless and until they prove themselves consistently unworthy of respect- a rare occurrence.
Look, if iron is going to sharpen iron, there has to be a spark here and there (see Paul/Barnabas.....Paul/Peter)- but God help us to engage in a realistic interchange and if we see the hay catch on fire we just squirt some living water on it. There is never a need to take (or give)personal offense even in the midst of sharp disagreement if we are careful not to judge one another.
We all bear witness to what we see, or what we think we see. The whole counsel of God will only become manifest in the saints as they mature enough to wrestle in love and keep the foundation sure -Christ in you the hope of glory, and the love of God shed abroad in our hearts through the Holy Ghost.
I also like what WW has to say here
"Man plans something. That's the will of man. In the end God's will overrules everything. Also God plots out the 'main paths'. But mankind has limited free will."
This is the only way in which the scriptures quoted from both extremes are reconciled together in my opinion.
Quote from: Ross on October 17, 2012, 01:58:40 PM
John 1;10-13 " He was in the world and the world came into existence through Him, and the world knew Him not.
He came into His own possessions and His people recieved Him not home.
But as many as did receive Him he gave to them authority to become children of God, to them who were believing on his name:
who NOT of bloods,
NOR of the will of the flesh,
NOR of the will of man,
BUT were BORN OF GOD."
Seems to be making a pretty specific statement.
actually it is a very comprehensive statement, and I don't think anyone I have spoken to on this site disagrees with the fact that everyone who is born of the spirit is birthed by the will of God. However when we get into issues where the scriptures speaks clearly to stewardship and the DECISIONS WE MAKE, exhorting us to certain decisions and actions, it also becomes reasonable to discuss those decisions and the consequences of them without parroting relentlessly the fact we all kno and accept, that God has overall sovereignity. It is not unreasonable however, to draw from the scriptures a conclusion that we do not SEE FROM THAT PLACE YET, therefore we must at times SPEAK FROM THE PLACE WE SEE, which in this life, is through a glass darkly and includes consequences for decisions made, words spoke, actions and ATTITUDES taken- and the scriptures are FULL TO OVERFLOWING with exhortations to consider these things. The need to INJECT THEORETICAL SYSTEMATIC COSMOLOGY INTO EVERY discussion is IMO tiring and makes a mockery of the exhortations and warnings of the scriptures that go to stewardship, daily living and the judgments of God.
At no time have I ever represented myself as having the perfect balance in all these things. And as yet I have been unimpressed by those who do represent themselves in that way. A major aspect of the wisdom we speak among the mature is that we see through a glass darkly. Who has known the Lord and who has been His counselor? We have the mind of Christ-- this is a humble mind, washing one another's feet with the "washing of the water with the word"....Have in yourselves the mind which was in Christ Jesus who being found in the form of God.....humbled Himself and became obedient to the point of death on a cross.....and if in anything you be OTHeRWISE MINDED God will also show you.
If people have 0% free will how can they even sin? They make no choices (that would be free will). Why was it so wrong the people made a golden calf when Moses was up the mountain? It wasn't their choice to do so. They have no choice/will.
100% free is more likely (but not my view) Man does all sorts of things by his own will.
An example of that is that God commanded a Sabbath year. A year the land must rest. It seemed the Jews had 100% free will. They still planted and harvested during the Sabbath years. Crops grew as usual. That "man plans it's course".
Some Sabbath years later God put an end to the breaking of the Sabbath law. He caused they Jews be captured and in that way the land got it's rest.
That's God's part of the Proverbs verse.
His laws and enforcing those laws is one of the ways God controls things.
God is a macromanager (limited free will) not a micromanager (0% free will).
(100% free will would equal no mangenet at all)
http://www.askdavetaylor.com/whats_a_micromanager.html
So while a manager will specify high-level tasks, like "The Smith account needs some attention. Can you give them a call at some point?",
a micromanager, someone who inevitably drives his or her employees crazy, would say "The Smith account needs some attention. Please go into your office and call them - the number's 555-1212 - ask for Leroy, wish him Happy Birthday, ask how the DeFratz-3600 is doing in their Beijing factory, and ask if they need any new hardware. Oh! And don't forget to talk to them about our new Super-Fratz-1150B and also talk up its warranty. And of course, make sure you tell Leroy about your new baby, because he's a loving father too and that'll endear him to you, and ... and ... and ..."
:2c:
Quote from: Ross on October 17, 2012, 01:58:40 PM
John 1;10-13 " He was in the world and the world came into existence through Him, and the world knew Him not.
He came into His own possessions and His people recieved Him not home.
But as many as did receive Him he gave to them authority to become children of God, to them who were believing on his name:
who NOT of bloods,
NOR of the will of the flesh,
NOR of the will of man,
BUT were BORN OF GOD."
Seems to be making a pretty specific statement.
What's that statement in your view Ross?
My view: Let's take "NOR of the will of man," ==> It plainly states man has a will.
"NOR of the will of the flesh" ==> Flesh has a will.
So imo the verse you quoted starts with a statement about creation and people starting to believe Him.
Then a short list of what those (new) believers no longer do (follow the will of the flesh for example)
End with a statement which they are now.
This is a prime example of why people don't understand free-will. They confuse it with basic day to day choices. Here is an exerp of the article I placed in a previous post.
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Hi;
The statement is that our position is according to the will of the Father.
We are then taught in the spirit about love and on what to base our decisions.
These decisions seem to be what are opposed by the desires of the flesh decision making basis.
The very things talked about in Gal;517 " For the flesh coveted against the Spirit, but the Spirit against the flesh, for these two are opposed to one another."
Then there is also the things talks about in John 5;19 " The Son cannot be doing a single thing of Himself, save anything he may see the Father doing:"
John 5;30 " Because I seek not My own will, but the will of Him that sent Me."
Does not make Christ a mindless moron, just that He sees the value of imitating the Father and doing His will in preference to His own.
Could well be the sort of thing Paul mentions in Eph 5;1 " Therefore become imitators of God as beloved children and walk in love."
We seem to have examples of that very thing when seeing our own children imitate something they have seen us do. They are not mindless, just trying to learn what to do and how to do that.
So IMO this does not mean we have no will, but that we are preferring to learn to please our Father and learn the better way of doing things.
Quote from: WhiteWings on October 18, 2012, 09:39:08 AM
Quote from: Ross on October 17, 2012, 01:58:40 PM
John 1;10-13 " He was in the world and the world came into existence through Him, and the world knew Him not.
He came into His own possessions and His people recieved Him not home.
But as many as did receive Him he gave to them authority to become children of God, to them who were believing on his name:
who NOT of bloods,
NOR of the will of the flesh,
NOR of the will of man,
BUT were BORN OF GOD."
Seems to be making a pretty specific statement.
What's that statement in your view Ross?
My view: Let's take "NOR of the will of man," ==> It plainly states man has a will.
"NOR of the will of the flesh" ==> Flesh has a will.
So imo the verse you quoted starts with a statement about creation and people starting to believe Him.
Then a short list of what those (new) believers no longer do (follow the will of the flesh for example)
End with a statement which they are now.
I think the reason those out of bounds words are such hot buttons is that they have been abused by both polar extremes of the positions. Many 5-point Calvinists believe Armenians are preaching a false gospel and are going to "bust hell wide open" HAHAHAH, of course, there is no hell-as it is defined by BOTH of them.
Then again, in 35+ years as a disciple of Christ I have known extremes of every systematic theology, from preterism to fundamentalism to legalism to licentious grace and I think all the rest(because i have actively sought the Lord through these deserts and wildernesses - a sojourning fool among fools often LOL). All of them fail to apprehend the truth because they cannot prioritize the purposes of God because they cannot see from a wide enough perspective. That perspective is only available in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, and only the broken and contrite heart gets to see from those heights, so you rarely hear such as these putting on airs and railing against their "adversaries". In the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord and being transformed into his likeness in humility and the yoke of meekness, sowing seeds of bearing righteous fruit sown in peace by the peacemakers, the sons of God, wisdom from above- this is the wisdom we speak among the mature, our speech seasoned with grace, if indeed we are mature HAHAHA- not so much most of us I think :o)
I found a good article about the conflict between Calvinism and Armenianism, here is an excerpt:
So, in the Calvinism vs. Arminianism debate, who is correct? It is interesting to note that in the diversity of the body of Christ, there are all sorts of mixtures of Calvinism and Arminianism. There are five-point Calvinists and five-point Arminians, and at the same time three-point Calvinists and two-point Arminians. Many believers arrive at some sort of mixture of the two views.
Ultimately, it is our view that both systems fail in that they attempt to explain the unexplainable. Human beings are incapable of fully grasping a concept such as this. Yes, God is absolutely sovereign and knows all. Yes, human beings are called to make a genuine decision to place faith in Christ unto salvation. These two facts seem contradictory to us, but in the mind of God they make perfect sense. http://www.gotquestions.org/Calvinism-vs-Arminianism.html
I left all these "sides" long ago. I mainly try to highlight the "seams" between the poles, hoping to establish common ground and point towards a higher place where we can see the overlaps in the positions and not judge one another so harshly. Of cousre I usually fail and come off as a "free-will" to the "sovereign" and vice versa, or a literalist to the preterist and vice versa. Actually I believe the truth is always found in a higher place, between the extremes, usually incorporating elements of each.
The beautiful thing about UR is that most of the fears that cause these extreme positions are generated by deficient understanding of the overall purpose of God, which is that ALL are predestined to salvation, each in his own order through the administration of God in the ages, therefore it is no longer so critical that we pin it all down, because He is in charge and causes all things to work according to His will. The way in which that incorporates the will of man and the will of the flesh is the mystery, a vein of gold in a bed of rock- blessed be the name of the Lord who gives wisdom freely to all who ask and upbraideth not. :2c: :2c: :2c: