soul and spirit

[gasman]

It's all right if you don't get it. None of those scriptures you quoted comes into to conflict with what I said. While the Spirit is within you it is a part of you. Otherwise you are dead. My point was the heart of the matter. My quote on the creature was not a quote on free will and had you read it properly you would have seen that. It was about the world being made flawed and us having no say in it. But for some reason people on this site have issues with free will teachings. I don't know why. But some of your scriptures didn't actually mean spirit. They meant nature. Character. But the mysteries are not for everyone and not until God choose to reveal it to them, which is why he spoke in parables.

[onlytruth]

Thanks gasman....I enjoyed that :icon_king:

[eaglesway]

It's all right if you don't get it. None of those scriptures you quoted comes into to conflict with what I said. While the Spirit is within you it is a part of you. Otherwise you are dead. My point was the heart of the matter. My quote on the creature was not a quote on free will and had you read it properly you would have seen that. It was about the world being made flawed and us having no say in it. But for some reason people on this site have issues with free will teachings. I don't know why. But some of your scriptures didn't actually mean spirit. They meant nature. Character. But the mysteries are not for everyone and not until God choose to reveal it to them, which is why he spoke in parables.

I didn't think those scriptures "came into conflict" with what you said. I wasnt presenting them in that light. I simply said they might provide the basis for a wider perspective. I also understood your point about having no say in being flawed. I agree that we had no say in that.(Ro. 8:23-28) My point about having a measure of free will was directed to understanding that I in "my spirit" may decide to do differently than another man decides in "his spirit" leading into that altho all spirits come from God, perhaps they maintain identity after being joined to a "soul" and that the joint is the "heart'. Afterwards they "return to God", not as undefined breaths awaiting reunion with body and soul, but as "the spirits of righteous men made perfect"- in those who, as you expressed well, actually "overcome".

Also, I was not addressing free will as an issue- I was indicating the individual will is an aspect of individual spirits. If you didn't get what I was saying, that may be my inadequacy in my sharing. As to whether "getting" your view, as presented, is "getting it" relating to the mysteries, well, I just want to leave that alone- I thought we were all seeking to edify the body, speaking the truth in love, growing up in all aspects into the Head.

[cheapgw2gold]

all souls belong to God

[gasman]

I'm not having a crack at you man. But you are still confusing the spirit and soul together and they are 2 different things. The spirit or life which you have IS God. The problem we have is that we have been taught in church that we have a human spirit. Made up from the heresy of trinity. This is not true. God IS spirit. Not that he is made of spirit, but he is ALL spirit. There is no other spirit. That is what you feel inside you when revelation comes to you. That is what is quickened. His spirit bears witness to the truth within you.
Now choice...or thought is a part of the mind, which in turn is soulish. Nothing to do with spirit, other than the spirit speaks to your soul. Being righteous does not create a different creature within you. You are made the same way as any person. The mind, the will and the emotions ARE the soul. Not the spirit.

Ecc 9:2  All things come alike to all: there is one event to the righteous, and to the wicked; to the good and to the clean, and to the unclean; to him that sacrificeth, and to him that sacrificeth not: as is the good, so is the sinner; and he that sweareth, as he that feareth an oath.

As to deciding to do differently than another man, that is an incorrect understanding of the process of how the Grace of God works. You are inspired and led and the circumstances around your life are ordered according to his will and purposes. To bring you to the valley of decision. It is your individual trial or dealing. God meeting you as a person right where you need it. And you are presented with options. You as an individual. Not multiple people trying to solve the same puzzle. And they are all in the same boat. God is dealing with them as individuals as well. It helps to imagine that no-one else is exactly where you are right at this moment, even if there are similarities.
When you die...you sleep. That's it. If you are alive at the time of the first resurrection and have overcome the carnal within you, then you are transformed. If you have died, but have overcome, you are resurrected into your new body and the new aion and you bring the judgements of God for the aion. You are of the man-child company. The sons of God. The elect.
If not, you await the 2nd resurrection and are judged and purged, whether you were a christian or not.

Heb 9:27  And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

I can forget sometimes that people haven't learned what I have learned and don't always have the pieces to make sense of the puzzle. I apologize if I made you feel I was having a go at you. I really wasn't.  :Peace2:

[jabcat]

gasman, these 2 links can be helpfull;

http://tentmaker.org/forum/rules-and-faq/free-willall-sovereign-and-the-trinity-discussions/msg102846/#msg102846

http://tentmaker.org/forum/rules-and-faq/posting-'as-i-understand-in-my-opinion-'/

[eaglesway]

I'm not having a crack at you man. But you are still confusing the spirit and soul together and they are 2 different things. The spirit or life which you have IS God. The problem we have is that we have been taught in church that we have a human spirit. Made up from the heresy of trinity. This is not true. God IS spirit. Not that he is made of spirit, but he is ALL spirit. There is no other spirit. That is what you feel inside you when revelation comes to you. That is what is quickened. His spirit bears witness to the truth within you.
Now choice...or thought is a part of the mind, which in turn is soulish. Nothing to do with spirit, other than the spirit speaks to your soul. Being righteous does not create a different creature within you. You are made the same way as any person. The mind, the will and the emotions ARE the soul. Not the spirit.

Ecc 9:2  All things come alike to all: there is one event to the righteous, and to the wicked; to the good and to the clean, and to the unclean; to him that sacrificeth, and to him that sacrificeth not: as is the good, so is the sinner; and he that sweareth, as he that feareth an oath.

As to deciding to do differently than another man, that is an incorrect understanding of the process of how the Grace of God works. You are inspired and led and the circumstances around your life are ordered according to his will and purposes. To bring you to the valley of decision. It is your individual trial or dealing. God meeting you as a person right where you need it. And you are presented with options. You as an individual. Not multiple people trying to solve the same puzzle. And they are all in the same boat. God is dealing with them as individuals as well. It helps to imagine that no-one else is exactly where you are right at this moment, even if there are similarities.
When you die...you sleep. That's it. If you are alive at the time of the first resurrection and have overcome the carnal within you, then you are transformed. If you have died, but have overcome, you are resurrected into your new body and the new aion and you bring the judgements of God for the aion. You are of the man-child company. The sons of God. The elect.
If not, you await the 2nd resurrection and are judged and purged, whether you were a christian or not.

Heb 9:27  And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

I can forget sometimes that people haven't learned what I have learned and don't always have the pieces to make sense of the puzzle. I apologize if I made you feel I was having a go at you. I really wasn't.  :Peace2:

No apology necessary, discussion welcomed. I am not in the least offended, and I am not sure you have learned all that you think you have learned- I have to test it for myself :o), of course, you understand that, knowing all that you kno LOL.

I am not confusing soul and spirit(in my own view at least). I see them as separate, but joined at the heart. In my view the heart of man is the hub of the wheel, or the core of the sphere of his being- the center, or throne or highest seat of consciousness. I believe the spirit soul and body are conjoined in the heart.

[micah7:9]

According to the Bible Gen. 2:7 man does not have a soul, nor was man given a soul, man is a soul..a living soul. Should that truth be understood, the the value of what a soul is, is simple. When we understand that the sentient being is what drives the emotions and all senses it becomes welcome. A soul is a breathing creature. A body of dust(flesh) without the breath of the creator, is naught. It is dust formed and breath breathed that makes as soul, a living soul. The trinity teaching is absolved with that truth. Man is made of dust and breath, period. Or the Bible is incorrect from it's beginning. Peace and love Through Jesus

[gasman]

Not only that Micah. So is Free-will. If you believe in UR then you cannot believe in Free-will. They are an anathema to each other. If there is a choice to follow God then there is no need for the salvation of all. I don't think that we should be hiding from the word because it causes some disagreement. I think it would benefit the people who organize this forum to realize this. You know the truth about UR. So what? What next? You have to move forward. You cannot spend the rest of your christian life regurgitating the same stuff over and over again. Trying to squeeze the last bit of desperate inspiration from each truth. I want to walk in the whole wisdom of God. Not just one aspect of it.
And the heart is the soul Eagle. The heart...the soul...the flesh...the carnal man...they are all the same thing. They are just different names describing the same thing. Not the spirit. Jesus doesn't live in your heart. Nowhere does it say we ask Jesus into our hearts. Our hearts are not the throne room of his temple. You are the temple of God because his life is in you. This is how Jeremiah describes the heart.

Jer 17:9  The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?

One translation says "desperate to be wicked". There is nothing more deceitful or lying in all of creation than our hearts. It doesn't sound like a place that God would choose to inhabit. And the world says that the carnal mind is not subject to the laws of God, nor can it ever be.

[WhiteWings]

Not only that Micah. So is Free-will. If you believe in UR then you cannot believe in Free-will.

Depends on the extend of the free will.
Compare it with little children.
Most parents give them the choice (free will) to pick a red, green or blue ball to play with.
But the kitchen knives are off limits (retriction of the free will)

[gasman]

I don't even know where to begin with that Whitewings. That is silly beyond words. You talk as if you are talking to the children in your analogy. Myself, I have put aside childish ways. I am about my Fathers business. Free-will or Free Moral Agency is not about mere choices of ball colour. It concerns the sovereignty of God himself.

[WhiteWings]

I don't even know where to begin with that Whitewings.

Maybe some day, when you gain understanding, you will.

That is silly beyond words.

Not silly. Just challanging your fantasy doctrine.

You talk as if you are talking to the children in your analogy.

Correctly so. If God is Father who are we? His uncle?

Myself, I have put aside childish ways.

Really?

I am about my Fathers business. Free-will or Free Moral Agency is not about mere choices of ball colour. It concerns the sovereignty of God himself.

You obviously have lot to learn.

[gasman]

The sage of the site speaks but says nothing.

[Ross]

John 1;10-13 " He was in the world and the world came into existence through Him, and the world knew Him not.
He came into His own possessions and His people recieved Him not home.
But as many as did receive Him he gave to them authority to become children of God, to them who were believing on his name:
who NOT of bloods,
NOR of the will of the flesh,
NOR of the will of man,
BUT were BORN OF GOD."

Seems to be making a pretty specific statement.

[WhiteWings]

The sage of the site speaks but says nothing.

Where is your support for your claims?
We can discuss this nicely. But you set the tone with your hostile replies. My guess is that you get hostile when you doctrine is challanged and you have no clue how to defend your claims.
Discuss or go away and play with your ball. :soccer:

Proverbs 16:9 In his heart a man plans his course, but the LORD determines his steps.

[WhiteWings]

John 1;10-13 " He was in the world and the world came into existence through Him, and the world knew Him not.
He came into His own possessions and His people recieved Him not home.
But as many as did receive Him he gave to them authority to become children of God, to them who were believing on his name:
who NOT of bloods,
NOR of the will of the flesh,
NOR of the will of man,
BUT were BORN OF GOD."

Seems to be making a pretty specific statement.

Yep, things aren't as black or white as some seem to believe.

[gasman]

The sage of the site speaks but says nothing.

Where is your support for your claims?
We can discuss this nicely. But you set the tone with your hostile replies. My guess is that you get hostile when you doctrine is challanged and you have no clue how to defend your claims.
Discuss or go away and play with your ball. :soccer:

Proverbs 16:9 In his heart a man plans his course, but the LORD determines his steps.

I set the tone? I wasn't the one who came in like a school marm trying to correct a little child. You did that. You brought your 2 cents worth to a buck and a half conversation and you were found wanting. Very presumptuous. It is clear from your comments that you do not understand the scriptures on this, but that didn't stop you from speaking.

You didn't even get what the scripture that Ross posted means. Yet you added another 2 cents there. "Nor of the 'will' of the flesh, nor of the 'will' of man." You said it wasn't as black and white as people think, perhaps a dig at me, but there it is IN black and white.

Maybe because you have so many posts, you think this is your territory or something. I really don't care.

Now Micah, who did have a good grasp of the word brought a very good post. If you truly were interested in discussing the matter then you should have brought a posting of his standard. A senior poster on the site should know better. That would have been constructive and I would have received it so. But no...you had to bring coloured balls and kitchen knives. No scripture. Just an anecdote. And you want me to back up what I said?  I quoted the scriptures. That is God's word on the matter.
And then you just quote proverbs which proves my point again. The Lord orders his steps...regardless of what man plans.

The Word of God confronts Whitewings. It brings conflict and change. The Kingdom of God suffers violence and the violent take it by force. I am not afraid of the process.  And by the way. I was asked to play representative soccer when I was a teenager...so I know what to do with the ball.

[jabcat]

What is this insulting and free will/trinity stuff?  Maybe everyone currently discussing needs to review the links provided?

[onlytruth]

I hope we all get along...I like to hear more of what gasman has to say...
blessings :icon_king:

[WhiteWings]

The sage of the site speaks but says nothing.

Where is your support for your claims?
We can discuss this nicely. But you set the tone with your hostile replies. My guess is that you get hostile when you doctrine is challanged and you have no clue how to defend your claims.
Discuss or go away and play with your ball. :soccer:

Proverbs 16:9 In his heart a man plans his course, but the LORD determines his steps.

I set the tone?

Yes. Just read back a few post and you will see.

I wasn't the one who came in like a school marm trying to correct a little child. You did that.

You wrote:

If you believe in UR then you cannot believe in Free-will. They are an anathema to each other.

I trying to give a different view with an example. Yes I at least gave an example. You just claimed something. You got a reply. Then the reply is silly beyond words, but you avoid explaining why. That's certainly setting a tone.

You brought your 2 cents worth to a buck and a half conversation and you were found wanting. Very presumptuous. It is clear from your comments that you do not understand the scriptures on this, but that didn't stop you from speaking.

Again claims. But nothing to support it. Why am I found wanting? Because I don't agree with you? Yeah sure.

You didn't even get what the scripture that Ross posted means. Yet you added another 2 cents there. "Nor of the 'will' of the flesh, nor of the 'will' of man." You said it wasn't as black and white as people think, perhaps a dig at me, but there it is IN black and white.

Yeah, that verse is in black and white. But it doesn't prove total (lack of) free will.

Maybe because you have so many posts, you think this is your territory or something. I really don't care.

Neither do I care how many post you have. I do care about the lack of supporting your views. Your nickname is chosen well. hot air.

Now Micah, who did have a good grasp of the word brought a very good post. If you truly were interested in discussing the matter then you should have brought a posting of his standard. A senior poster on the site should know better. That would have been constructive and I would have received it so. But no...you had to bring colored balls and kitchen knives. No scripture. Just an anecdote.

But it clearly shows how I view free will. But even that simple anecdote is beyond your grasp.
You just state free will isn't compatible with UR. Where are your verses?
(If you read the forum rules you would have known why I used an anecdote)

And you want me to back up what I said?  I quoted the scriptures. That is God's word on the matter.
And then you just quote proverbs which proves my point again. The Lord orders his steps...regardless of what man plans.

I've read and reread the verses you posted. They don't prove your point. Proverbs proves my view.
Man plans something. That's the will of man. In the end God's will overrules everything. Also God plots out the 'main paths'. But mankind has limited free will.

The Word of God confronts Whitewings. It brings conflict and change. The Kingdom of God suffers violence and the violent take it by force.

What do you think that means?

[WhiteWings]

What is this insulting and free will/trinity stuff?  Maybe everyone currently discussing needs to review the links provided?

No worries James. I posted my view in a clear way. Unless my post is really answered I'm done with gasman.
:Peace2:

[jabcat]

What is this insulting and free will/trinity stuff?  Maybe everyone currently discussing needs to review the links provided?

No worries James. I posted my view in a clear way. Unless my post is really answered I'm done with gasman.
:Peace2:

Thanks. :)

[gasman]

I don't feel the need to get the last word in all the time Whitewings, nor do I have to always prove that I am always right. Unless the Lord draws you, then you don't get to drink from the well. I will just leave a link to a very good article that anyone who is interested can look at for themselves. I have used the name for years. It has nothing to do with baked beans or farting. But I am used to people having a poke at me for it.

Here is the link. Please all go to it if you have questions on Free-will. You will see what I mean about UR and FR being the enemy of each other. And it is ALL scripture.

http://www.remnantbiblestudies.com/intropage_freewill.html

:banana: I like this banana.

[gasman]

I hope we all get along...I like to hear more of what gasman has to say...
blessings :icon_king:

Thank you very much   :banana: :banana: :banana:

[eaglesway]

I like to hear what gasman has to say also. I might not agree with everything he (or anybody for that matter) says, and I sure hope nobody agrees with everything I say, but I have respect for everyone, unless and until they prove themselves consistently unworthy of respect- a rare occurrence.

Look, if iron is going to sharpen iron, there has to be a spark here and there (see Paul/Barnabas.....Paul/Peter)- but God help us to engage in a realistic interchange and if we see the hay catch on fire we just squirt some living water on it. There is never a need to take (or give)personal offense even in the midst of sharp disagreement if we are careful not to judge one another.

We all bear witness to what we see, or what we think we see. The whole counsel of God will only become manifest in the saints as they mature enough to wrestle in love and keep the foundation sure -Christ in you the hope of glory, and the love of God shed abroad in our hearts through the Holy Ghost.


I also like what WW has to say here

"Man plans something. That's the will of man. In the end God's will overrules everything. Also God plots out the 'main paths'. But mankind has limited free will."

This is the only way in which the scriptures quoted from both extremes are reconciled together in my opinion.