soul and spirit

[eaglesway]

John 1;10-13 " He was in the world and the world came into existence through Him, and the world knew Him not.
He came into His own possessions and His people recieved Him not home.
But as many as did receive Him he gave to them authority to become children of God, to them who were believing on his name:
who NOT of bloods,
NOR of the will of the flesh,
NOR of the will of man,
BUT were BORN OF GOD."

Seems to be making a pretty specific statement.

actually it is a very comprehensive statement, and I don't think anyone I have spoken to on this site disagrees with the fact that everyone who is born of the spirit is birthed by the will of God. However when we get into issues where the scriptures speaks clearly to stewardship and the DECISIONS WE MAKE, exhorting us to certain decisions and actions, it also becomes reasonable to discuss those decisions and the consequences of them without parroting relentlessly the fact we all kno and accept, that God has overall sovereignity. It is not unreasonable however, to draw from the scriptures a conclusion that we do not SEE FROM THAT PLACE YET, therefore we must at times SPEAK FROM THE PLACE WE SEE, which in this life, is through a glass darkly and includes consequences for decisions made, words spoke, actions and ATTITUDES taken- and the scriptures are FULL TO OVERFLOWING with exhortations to consider these things. The need to INJECT THEORETICAL SYSTEMATIC COSMOLOGY INTO EVERY discussion is IMO tiring and makes a mockery of the exhortations and warnings of the scriptures that go to stewardship, daily living and the judgments of God.

At no time have I ever represented myself as having the perfect balance in all these things. And as yet I have been unimpressed by those who do represent themselves in that way. A major aspect of the wisdom we speak among the mature is that we see through a glass darkly. Who has known the Lord and who has been His counselor? We have the mind of Christ-- this is a humble mind, washing one another's feet with the "washing of the water with the word"....Have in yourselves the mind which was in Christ Jesus who being found in the form of God.....humbled Himself and became obedient to the point of death on a cross.....and if in anything you be OTHeRWISE MINDED God will also show you.

[WhiteWings]

If people have 0% free will how can they even sin? They make no choices (that would be free will). Why was it so wrong the people made a golden calf when Moses was up the mountain? It wasn't their choice to do so. They have no choice/will.

100% free is more likely (but not my view) Man does all sorts of things by his own will.
An example of that is that God commanded a Sabbath year. A year the land must rest. It seemed the Jews had 100% free will. They still planted and harvested during the Sabbath years. Crops grew as usual. That "man plans it's course".
Some Sabbath years later God put an end to the breaking of the Sabbath law. He caused they Jews be captured and in that way the land got it's rest.
That's God's part of the Proverbs verse.
His laws and enforcing those laws is one of the ways God controls things.


God is a macromanager (limited free will) not a micromanager (0% free will).
(100% free will would equal no mangenet at all)
http://www.askdavetaylor.com/whats_a_micromanager.html

So while a manager will specify high-level tasks, like "The Smith account needs some attention. Can you give them a call at some point?",


a micromanager, someone who inevitably drives his or her employees crazy, would say "The Smith account needs some attention. Please go into your office and call them - the number's 555-1212 - ask for Leroy, wish him Happy Birthday, ask how the DeFratz-3600 is doing in their Beijing factory, and ask if they need any new hardware. Oh! And don't forget to talk to them about our new Super-Fratz-1150B and also talk up its warranty. And of course, make sure you tell Leroy about your new baby, because he's a loving father too and that'll endear him to you, and ... and ... and ..."

:2c:

[WhiteWings]

John 1;10-13 " He was in the world and the world came into existence through Him, and the world knew Him not.
He came into His own possessions and His people recieved Him not home.
But as many as did receive Him he gave to them authority to become children of God, to them who were believing on his name:
who NOT of bloods,
NOR of the will of the flesh,
NOR of the will of man,
BUT were BORN OF GOD."

Seems to be making a pretty specific statement.

What's that statement in your view Ross?
My view: Let's take "NOR of the will of man," ==> It plainly states man has a will.
"NOR of the will of the flesh" ==> Flesh has a will.

So imo the verse you quoted starts with a statement about creation and people starting to believe Him.
Then a short list of what those (new) believers no longer do (follow the will of the flesh for example)
End with a statement which they are now.

[gasman]

This is a prime example of why people don't understand free-will. They confuse it with basic day to day choices. Here is an exerp of the article I placed in a previous post.


Edit [plz see friendly PM :) ]

Mod Note - Thanks for coming back today in more of a discussion mode.  :thumbsup:

The expectations re: free will/all sovereign and trinity discussion have been forum guidelines for 2-3 years now.  Agreeing to abide by those requests is a pre-requisite to posting on the site.  Any further discussion of moderation issues needs to be by PM please.  Thanks, James. 

[Ross]

Hi;
The statement is that our position is according to the will of the Father.
We are then taught in the spirit about love and on what to base our decisions.
These decisions seem to be what are opposed by the desires of the flesh decision making basis.
The very things talked about in Gal;517 " For the flesh coveted against the Spirit, but the Spirit against the flesh, for these two are opposed to one another."
Then there is also the things talks about in John 5;19 " The Son cannot be doing a single thing of Himself, save anything he may see the Father doing:"
John 5;30 " Because I seek not My own will, but the will of Him that sent Me."
Does not make Christ a mindless moron, just that He sees the value of imitating the Father and doing His will in preference to His own.
Could well be the sort of thing Paul mentions in Eph 5;1 " Therefore become imitators of God as beloved children and walk in love."

We seem to have examples of that very thing when seeing our own children imitate something they have seen us do. They are not mindless, just trying to learn what to do and how to do that.

So IMO this does not mean we have no will, but that we are preferring to learn to please our Father and learn the better way of doing things.

[eaglesway]

John 1;10-13 " He was in the world and the world came into existence through Him, and the world knew Him not.
He came into His own possessions and His people recieved Him not home.
But as many as did receive Him he gave to them authority to become children of God, to them who were believing on his name:
who NOT of bloods,
NOR of the will of the flesh,
NOR of the will of man,
BUT were BORN OF GOD."

Seems to be making a pretty specific statement.

What's that statement in your view Ross?
My view: Let's take "NOR of the will of man," ==> It plainly states man has a will.
"NOR of the will of the flesh" ==> Flesh has a will.

So imo the verse you quoted starts with a statement about creation and people starting to believe Him.
Then a short list of what those (new) believers no longer do (follow the will of the flesh for example)
End with a statement which they are now.

I think the reason those out of bounds words are such hot buttons is that they have been abused by both polar extremes of the positions. Many 5-point Calvinists believe Armenians are preaching a false gospel and are going to "bust hell wide open" HAHAHAH, of course, there is no hell-as it is defined by BOTH of them.

Then again, in 35+ years as a disciple of Christ I have known extremes of every systematic theology, from preterism to fundamentalism to legalism to licentious grace and I think all the rest(because i have actively sought the Lord through these deserts and wildernesses - a sojourning fool among fools often LOL). All of them fail to apprehend the truth because they cannot prioritize the purposes of God because they cannot see from a wide enough perspective. That perspective is only available in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, and only the broken and contrite heart gets to see from those heights, so you rarely hear such as these putting on airs and railing against their "adversaries". In the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord and being transformed into his likeness in humility and the yoke of meekness, sowing seeds of bearing righteous fruit sown in peace by the peacemakers, the sons of God, wisdom from above- this is the wisdom we speak among the mature, our speech seasoned with grace, if indeed we are mature HAHAHA- not so much most of us I think :o)

I found a good article about the conflict between Calvinism and Armenianism, here is an excerpt:

So, in the Calvinism vs. Arminianism debate, who is correct? It is interesting to note that in the diversity of the body of Christ, there are all sorts of mixtures of Calvinism and Arminianism. There are five-point Calvinists and five-point Arminians, and at the same time three-point Calvinists and two-point Arminians. Many believers arrive at some sort of mixture of the two views. Ultimately, it is our view that both systems fail in that they attempt to explain the unexplainable. Human beings are incapable of fully grasping a concept such as this. Yes, God is absolutely sovereign and knows all. Yes, human beings are called to make a genuine decision to place faith in Christ unto salvation. These two facts seem contradictory to us, but in the mind of God they make perfect sense. http://www.gotquestions.org/Calvinism-vs-Arminianism.html

I left all these "sides" long ago. I mainly try to highlight the "seams" between the poles, hoping to establish common ground and point towards a higher place where we can see the overlaps in the positions and not judge one another so harshly. Of cousre I usually fail and come off as a "free-will" to the "sovereign" and vice versa, or a literalist to the preterist and vice versa. Actually I believe the truth is always found in a higher place, between the extremes, usually incorporating elements of each.

The beautiful thing about UR is that most of the fears that cause these extreme positions are generated by deficient understanding of the overall purpose of God, which is that ALL are predestined to salvation, each in his own order through the administration of God in the ages, therefore it is no longer so critical that we pin it all down, because He is in charge and causes all things to work according to His will. The way in which that incorporates the will of man and the will of the flesh is the mystery, a vein of gold in a bed of rock- blessed be the name of the Lord who gives wisdom freely to all who ask and upbraideth not. :2c: :2c: :2c: