Natural and Spiritual

[sheila]

   Yes, I would say so.

  Actually Abraham typified God as the Father of all.With progency as numerous as the sands of the sea and the stars of heaven.

   And Melchezidek represented Michael the Archangels ministry
  of heaven. Rev 12;7 Jude 9 Dan 10;13,10;21 and 12;1

                                  Sheila

[sheila]

  Genesis 15;13

  and he said unto Abram,know of a surety that thy seed
shall be a stranger in a land not theirs, and shall serve them; and they shall afflict them 400 years. And also, that nation whom they shall serve,will I judge, and afterward will they come out with great substance.

   this is a type of Father and His seed,progency..being sojourners
  and strangers in this earth..and serving the kingdom of darkness and being afflicted by the kingdom of darkness

[claypot]

Man Pneuma, good to see ya. What do ya think of all our madness here? Your words are always fuel for growth.

cp

[reFORMer]

"...for until law sin was in the world, yet sin is not being taken into account when there is no law; nevertheless, death reigns from Adam unto Moses, over those also who do not sin in the likeness of the transgression of Adam, who is a type of Him Who is about to be." (Rom 5:13-14)

If in the impression made from the die, "...death reigns...over those also who do not sin in the likeness of the transgression of Adam," then, by the original from which the impression was made, life shall reign over those also who do not walk in the likeness of the obedience of Christ Jesus!

[Tony N]

"...for until law sin was in the world, yet sin is not being taken into account when there is no law; nevertheless, death reigns from Adam unto Moses, over those also who do not sin in the likeness of the transgression of Adam, who is a type of Him Who is about to be." (Rom 5:13-14)

If in the impression made from the die, "...death reigns...over those also who do not sin in the likeness of the transgression of Adam," then, by the original from which the impression was made, life shall reign over those also who do not walk in the likeness of the obedience of Christ Jesus!

Now that went right over my head like a stealth fighter on a warm summer night in Baghdad. LOL.  :laughing7:

Types, figures, shadows . . . "Adam, who is a type of Him who is about to be." How is Adam a type of Christ? What Adam did affects all mankind. What Christ did affects all mankind. See Romans 5:18,19.

Mankind did not sin in the likeness of Adam's sin. In other words, mankind was not given the charge "thou shalt not eat" yet Paul said that all mankind are dying anyway. How did Paul account for this? Death. Death passed through into all mankind and it is "because [of this] all sinned."

[Tony N]

cp, 1 Cor.15:22 says that "in Adam all are dying." It does not say that once one sins they get placed into Adam and then begin to die.

Likewise, in Romans 5:12 Paul is dealing with how it is that all mankind sin. The reason is because of death. Death passing through into all mankind causes all mankind to be sinners. It is not the other way around in which all sin and this causes all mankind to have death passed through into them due to what Adam did.

Man . .. this thread has been busy!  I hate to go home from work any more for fear that I'd miss getting in on something . .or getting something out of you guys.

Tony, our wonderful flatlander . . .(see http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BWyTxCsIXE4&feature=related) you do struggle much with us don't you. 

Did Jesus not tell Peter "flesh and blood has not taught you these things, but the Father has chosen to REVEAL them to you . . ."  Jesus doesn't care in the least on what you were taught about who he is . . .he wants to know what has the Father "revealed" to your spirit?  Does that sound like Peter needed to know a chapter and verse?

Time and time again, the pattern has always been, relationship births revelation, which natural works then manifest that revelation.  But yet, we in our limited thinking and yes, there is an antichrist in every one of us . . .it's called my carnal mind . .it's that which is at emnity against God.  Jesus said, you are either for him, or against him . . .now my mind convinces me I am for him . . .but my mind knows nothing about him . .only what another taught my mind to accept.  It's not "the" truth, but instead, it's my "image" of what truth is.

But then, as I grow, even though it may have been based on natural reasoning up to now, my intent has never been evil, but always striving to be pure . .. and in that intent, I grow.  And I come to the point where my maturity "outgrows" my intent.  Because good intentions, in and of themselves, do not beget righteousness.  God does not despise good intentions . .he matures them.  I go from a two dimensional being, into a three dimensional . . .but my mind doesn't have the capacity for that kind of transformation . . .my personality can only take me so far . . .this isn't an intellectual transformation, but a spiritual one.

So here we are.  On one side, you have those who've chosen to lay their mind down and let it die . . .so that they could then be led by their spirit . .and as a result, their mind resurrects, but in a different form.  And as we continue to grow, our mind is still carnal, but it can grow . . .much like any serpent, in order for it to get bigger . .more mature, it must first SHED THE SKIN that it currently is living in.

There is an antichrist in me . . .there is a serpent, there is a dragon, a devil, and satan . .they are all one and the same.  They are pictures of my mind, the mind of carnal man, and the characteristics of that man, the nature of that man . . .but in order to "see" this, there first must be a shedding of my natural reasoning. 

As cp, Cardinal, Bob, Zeek, Taf, Rose, who else has been such a blessing on this thread?  Ask any one of these guys "what schooling did you go through to learn what you know?"  And I guarentee you . .their answer will be the same as mine . . ."Flesh and blood has not taught me . .but the Father has revealed . . . ."

Everything is spiritual man.  everything.  Everything is literal to.  But . . .again .  . the literal piece isn't for us to apply to our literal generation . .it was to be taken literally for those to whom it was originally written to "then".  The reason you don't see these things Tony is because you've already chosen not to . .you've already decided that we're all wrong.  And your questions to us are not because you're interested in learning, but you're looking for a way to corner us and say HA!  YOU WERE WRONG! 

And as it's been explained . . . emphasizing the natural just isn't why we're doing what we're doing.  Taking what was written literally, and applying it literally, is not walking spiritually.  "that's" why there's such a chasm.  But as was also mention, feel free to continue to trip us up . . .because so many are getting so much more from this spiritual perspective because of your arguments, than they normally would if we just posted a revelation and moved on.

This is the meat of Truth . . . it needs to be chewed over and over before it can be swallowed, digested, and becomes a part of us. 

There is a literal temple that was destroyed.  1st dimension
We are all living stones, fitted together that forms the Temple of God 2nd dimension
What?  Know ye not that "you" are a temple of the holy ghost? 3rd dimension.

The word "temple" there that Paul uses, is the exact same Greek word that he uses in 2 Thesalonians when speaking of the abomination of desolation.  The throne is in "me".  Physically, it is beleived to be the pineal gland. . .but that's another thread.

Dear Nathan, if flesh and blood has taught you nothing, then maybe that is the reason you believe the way you do. Think about that.

Eph 4:8-16  Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.  (9)  (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?  (10)  He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)  (11)  And He gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;  (12)  For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:  (13)  Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:  (14)  That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;  (15)  But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:  (16)  From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.

Nathan, what do you see in the above list of those whom Christ gives to the body of believers? They are flesh and blood. If one is not learning from flesh and blood pastors and teachers, one is not "growing into Him in all things, which is the head, even Christ." One is carried about by every wind of doctrine.

Maybe this is why many at Tentmaker have not "grown into the unity of the faith" etc.?

Nathan you wrote:

Everything is spiritual man.  everything.  Everything is literal to.  But . . .again .  . the literal piece isn't for us to apply to our literal generation . .it was to be taken literally for those to whom it was originally written to "then".  The reason you don't see these things Tony is because you've already chosen not to . .you've already decided that we're all wrong.  And your questions to us are not because you're interested in learning, but you're looking for a way to corner us and say HA!  YOU WERE WRONG! 

Nathan, you really hurt my feelings with what you said above. That is so far from the truth that I am just amazed you even said it. You really think that is the reason I'm here is just to corner you to say HA! YOU WERE WRONG!? Did the spirit reveal that to you or your own flesh and blood?
But that's O.K. they told Jesus He had a demon too.

Tony

[pneuma]

Man Pneuma, good to see ya. What do ya think of all our madness here? Your words are always fuel for growth.

cp

Hi Clay, good to see you also, I have not read the whole thread bro (not much time as I went back to college to enter into the justice field and it keeps me very busy) just the last two pages so I don't know about all the madness :happygrin: but you know I see things in both the natural and spiritual aspect and the spiritual aspect outshines the natural as it is closer to the heart of what God is saying to His people.

Godbless

[Molly]

  Genesis 15;13

  and he said unto Abram,know of a surety that thy seed
shall be a stranger in a land not theirs, and shall serve them; and they shall afflict them 400 years. And also, that nation whom they shall serve,will I judge, and afterward will they come out with great substance.

   this is a type of Father and His seed,progency..being sojourners
  and strangers in this earth..and serving the kingdom of darkness and being afflicted by the kingdom of darkness

Actually Abraham typified God as the Father of all.With progency as numerous as the sands of the sea and the stars of heaven.

Is Abraham the father of all or of many?

Genesis 17:4
As for me, behold, my covenant is with thee, and thou shalt be a father of many nations.


That says 'many nations' will come out of Abraham, not all nations, at least we can't assume all nations, given that word.


[father of] "many" [nations]

H1995
המן    המון
hâmôn  hâmôn
haw-mone', haw-mone'
From H1993; a noise, tumult, crowd; also disquietude, wealth: - abundance, company, many, multitude, multiply, noise, riches, rumbling, sounding, store, tumult.


Then we see that God winnows it down, bringing the bloodline to Jesus through Isaac, through Jacob, through Judah.  Of necessity, more and more have to be left out as we follow the generations through to Jesus.

Then we see it open up again, as Paul tells us the line is through Isaac, not by the blood, but by the promise.



Galatians 4:28
Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.


So again we have the concept of a multitude possible, and we see them standing before the throne--

Revelation 7:9
After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;


But is that 'all'?

Does 'of all nations' mean 'all people of all nations'?

[Tony N]

Molly, excellent observations!
You wrote:

Father of many nations.

Rev. 7:9 "of all nations."

Very good observations.

Tony

[Nathan]

cp, 1 Cor.15:22 says that "in Adam all are dying." It does not say that once one sins they get placed into Adam and then begin to die.

Likewise, in Romans 5:12 Paul is dealing with how it is that all mankind sin. The reason is because of death. Death passing through into all mankind causes all mankind to be sinners. It is not the other way around in which all sin and this causes all mankind to have death passed through into them due to what Adam did.

Man . .. this thread has been busy!  I hate to go home from work any more for fear that I'd miss getting in on something . .or getting something out of you guys.

Tony, our wonderful flatlander . . .(see http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BWyTxCsIXE4&feature=related) you do struggle much with us don't you. 

Did Jesus not tell Peter "flesh and blood has not taught you these things, but the Father has chosen to REVEAL them to you . . ."  Jesus doesn't care in the least on what you were taught about who he is . . .he wants to know what has the Father "revealed" to your spirit?  Does that sound like Peter needed to know a chapter and verse?

Time and time again, the pattern has always been, relationship births revelation, which natural works then manifest that revelation.  But yet, we in our limited thinking and yes, there is an antichrist in every one of us . . .it's called my carnal mind . .it's that which is at emnity against God.  Jesus said, you are either for him, or against him . . .now my mind convinces me I am for him . . .but my mind knows nothing about him . .only what another taught my mind to accept.  It's not "the" truth, but instead, it's my "image" of what truth is.

But then, as I grow, even though it may have been based on natural reasoning up to now, my intent has never been evil, but always striving to be pure . .. and in that intent, I grow.  And I come to the point where my maturity "outgrows" my intent.  Because good intentions, in and of themselves, do not beget righteousness.  God does not despise good intentions . .he matures them.  I go from a two dimensional being, into a three dimensional . . .but my mind doesn't have the capacity for that kind of transformation . . .my personality can only take me so far . . .this isn't an intellectual transformation, but a spiritual one.

So here we are.  On one side, you have those who've chosen to lay their mind down and let it die . . .so that they could then be led by their spirit . .and as a result, their mind resurrects, but in a different form.  And as we continue to grow, our mind is still carnal, but it can grow . . .much like any serpent, in order for it to get bigger . .more mature, it must first SHED THE SKIN that it currently is living in.

There is an antichrist in me . . .there is a serpent, there is a dragon, a devil, and satan . .they are all one and the same.  They are pictures of my mind, the mind of carnal man, and the characteristics of that man, the nature of that man . . .but in order to "see" this, there first must be a shedding of my natural reasoning. 

As cp, Cardinal, Bob, Zeek, Taf, Rose, who else has been such a blessing on this thread?  Ask any one of these guys "what schooling did you go through to learn what you know?"  And I guarentee you . .their answer will be the same as mine . . ."Flesh and blood has not taught me . .but the Father has revealed . . . ."

Everything is spiritual man.  everything.  Everything is literal to.  But . . .again .  . the literal piece isn't for us to apply to our literal generation . .it was to be taken literally for those to whom it was originally written to "then".  The reason you don't see these things Tony is because you've already chosen not to . .you've already decided that we're all wrong.  And your questions to us are not because you're interested in learning, but you're looking for a way to corner us and say HA!  YOU WERE WRONG! 

And as it's been explained . . . emphasizing the natural just isn't why we're doing what we're doing.  Taking what was written literally, and applying it literally, is not walking spiritually.  "that's" why there's such a chasm.  But as was also mention, feel free to continue to trip us up . . .because so many are getting so much more from this spiritual perspective because of your arguments, than they normally would if we just posted a revelation and moved on.

This is the meat of Truth . . . it needs to be chewed over and over before it can be swallowed, digested, and becomes a part of us. 

There is a literal temple that was destroyed.  1st dimension
We are all living stones, fitted together that forms the Temple of God 2nd dimension
What?  Know ye not that "you" are a temple of the holy ghost? 3rd dimension.

The word "temple" there that Paul uses, is the exact same Greek word that he uses in 2 Thesalonians when speaking of the abomination of desolation.  The throne is in "me".  Physically, it is beleived to be the pineal gland. . .but that's another thread.

Dear Nathan, if flesh and blood has taught you nothing, then maybe that is the reason you believe the way you do. Think about that.

Eph 4:8-16  Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.  (9)  (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?  (10)  He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)  (11)  And He gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;  (12)  For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:  (13)  Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:  (14)  That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;  (15)  But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:  (16)  From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.

Nathan, what do you see in the above list of those whom Christ gives to the body of believers? They are flesh and blood. If one is not learning from flesh and blood pastors and teachers, one is not "growing into Him in all things, which is the head, even Christ." One is carried about by every wind of doctrine.

Maybe this is why many at Tentmaker have not "grown into the unity of the faith" etc.?

Nathan you wrote:

Everything is spiritual man.  everything.  Everything is literal to.  But . . .again .  . the literal piece isn't for us to apply to our literal generation . .it was to be taken literally for those to whom it was originally written to "then".  The reason you don't see these things Tony is because you've already chosen not to . .you've already decided that we're all wrong.  And your questions to us are not because you're interested in learning, but you're looking for a way to corner us and say HA!  YOU WERE WRONG! 

Nathan, you really hurt my feelings with what you said above. That is so far from the truth that I am just amazed you even said it. You really think that is the reason I'm here is just to corner you to say HA! YOU WERE WRONG!? Did the spirit reveal that to you or your own flesh and blood?
But that's O.K. they told Jesus He had a demon too.

Tony

First of all Tony . . .I never said that flesh and blood teaches you nothing.  This is the pattern you seem to always have . . .you have an image of what you think was said when that's not what was said at all.  What I said was . . .JESUS was the one who stated "Flesh and blood has not taught you THIS"  The "this" is . .the revelation of who Jesus is.  He is a spirit . .as are we, but seeing him as the Christ, the Son of the ever-living God is not something that is taught by natural reasoning men, but it's what is revealed to us through our relationship with the Father.  

My understanding is . . .flesh and blood (natural reasoning) can not teach spiritual truths.  They are of a different nature than knowledge about God.  Knowledge "about" God can be taught, but spiritual truth is planted in seed form into our minds . .which matures on it's own with no interference from me . . . the mind is a womb . .it's purpose is to birth understanding . .not to conjure up an image on it's own . .which if left to it's own devices, does just that.  Which for me, is why 2 Corinthians 10, I believe it is, tells us that we're to "take captive" our thoughts . . .keep them in check . . .

I still teach all the time, but what I teach is the patterns I see . . . and even then there's no guarantee that others will see the patterns.  It is only through grace that anyone sees "anything" in the first place.  But my attempt is to emphasize the pattern and trust the Spirit to bring the revelation of what the pattern is indicating.

The roles given as gifts as you quoted are those that are "in" the spirit and assist in the maturing of the saints.  Scripture also states in Hebrews that the time will come when teaching will no longer be necessary because the Spirit will be the one doing ALL the revealing.  So yeah, when you have infant, toddler and adolesent believers, there is a need for teaching . . .but once they spiritually enter into the person of rest themselves, they are then directed and led wholly by the Spirit and not by the teaching of another.

And second . . .
The reason why I shared "my opinion" of your approach is because I follow your conversations just like I read everyone else's.  You can tell when someone is asking questions because they are hungry for more of what you have, and when someone is asking questions because they don't believe what you have to be true and accurate.  You pretty much always come across to me as the latter because you seem to try to always counter everything that gets posted on a dimensional tone.

Your responses become critical toward the "idea" that things could be taken any other way than how you portray them to be.  I was not condemning you. . .and I'm still not.  But you've written enough posts for one to be able to get an idea of where your coming from.  Even at the end of your post to me, there is a jab implying that you liken yourself to Christ . . .and that I accused you of having a demon . . . (note, I said you're "implying" those things).  

You said
If one is not learning from flesh and blood pastors and teachers, one is not "growing into Him in all things, which is the head, even Christ." One is carried about by every wind of doctrine.

I believe this is exactly why you have such a huge number of denominations out there . . .and even if you selected "one" denomination and visited each and every church in that denomination, you'd find that even though they are of the same denomination, they don't have the same exact belief within their own system either.  

Men are "of" flesh and blood . .otherwise they wouldn't be men.  But the difference is, we, as men (spiritually speaking . .that includes women to of course) are called to walk in the spirit.  By "flesh and blood" I am not saying that you should not listen to people at all . . .I'm saying that it's natural reasoning trying to teach spiritual truth  that creates the problems.

Incidentally, the majority of people on many of these forums . . .especially UR it seems . .. have chosen to not attend a church . . .so how would these 5 ministries that you quoted, flourish when no one chooses to assemble themselves together as a congregation, but rather, through venues such as this to get their daily bread?

How can a pastor become a pastor when there are no congregations to receive the pastoring?

[Tony N]

Incidentally, the majority of people on many of these forums . . .especially UR it seems . .. have chosen to not attend a church . . .so how would these 5 ministries that you quoted, flourish when no one chooses to assemble themselves together as a congregation, but rather, through venues such as this to get their daily bread?

How can a pastor become a pastor when there are no congregations to receive the pastoring?

Therein lies the heart of the problem as to those who post here.

P.S., I hope you don't accuse me of being a mean person and jumping at what you said to make you look bad, but the sword cuts both ways. You stated: "Jesus is a spirit and so are we." Jesus is not a spirit and neither are we. This is just another of the problems I see here. People who think they are being taught by the spirit and are not.

Luke 24:39 Perceive My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself. Handle Me and perceive, for a spirit has not flesh and bones according as you behold Me having."

John 6:63 The Spirit is that which is vivifying. The flesh is not benefiting anything. The declarations which I have spoken to you are spirit and are life.

While Jesus is not a spirit, the declarationns or words which He spoke and which were written down are spirit and life. And how can we be vivified or made alive in our spirit if we don't receive the words He spoke, words which He also gave to the apostle Paul?

I don't ask the above question to learn anything from you, Nathan. I already know the answer to the question. It is just that I am thinking out loud.

Anyway, peace to you Nathan. I don't wish you ill in anything.  :icon_flower:

[sheila]

  Well,Tony

   Ezekiel 34 explains exactly how I feel about it..

   I WILL PASTOR THEM ON THE MOUNTAINS OF ISRAEL...

   when you see the abomination..standing in a Holy place

   flee to the mountains

   Rev 18;4  Come out of her my people.....

    Jude 10  yet these men speak abusively against whatever

    they do not understand........ they have rushed for profit

    into Balaam's error.........12 shepherds who feed only

    themselves....16   these men are grumblers and fault-

    finders; they follow their own evil desires; they boast

    about themselves and flatter others for their own advantage.



     All of the above is why I do not attend 'church" as you call it..
   to me the church is  this  ' see, I lay a stone in Zion

   a chosen and precious cornerstone, and the one who trusts in

   him will never be put to shame.

  2 Thess 2;    The man of lawlessness

    I think about the 'Church" and the inquisition and the

  crusades...and how they sat in the temple and  professed

 to speak for God as God's representative while they

  worked out their evil agendas

     there have been many false christs and false prophets

     wolves in sheeps clothing


   Matthew 24;45 Who then, is the faithful and wise servant,

 whom the master has put in charge of the servants of his

 household to give them their food at the proper time?

     It will be good for that servant whose master finds him

 doing so when he returns, I tell you the truth he will put him

in charge of all his possessions. But suppose that servant is

wicked, and says to himself,'My Master is staying away a long

time, and he begins to beat his fellow servants and to

 eat and drink with drunkards. The Master of that servant

 will come on a day when he does not expect him,

 and at an hour he is not aware of.

   He will cut him to pieces and assign him a place with the

 hypocrites, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth'

  what was Balaam's error?

  Israel said 'we will travel along the King's highway until

 we have passed through your territory"

  But God said 'Do not go with them, you must not put a curse

 on those people,because they are blessed


     When the donkey saw the angel of the Lord standing in the road with a drawn sword, she turned off the road into a field,
Balaam beat her to get her back on the road....

when the donkey saw the angel of the Lord, she pressed close to the wall, crushing Balaam's foot against it, so he beat her again

  when the donkey saw the angel of the Lord, she lay down under Balaam,and he was angry and beat her with his staff

...then the Lord opened the donkeys mouth,and she said to Balaam,'WHAT HAVE I DONE TO YOU TO MAKE YOU BEAT ME THESE THREE TIMES?"

   Balaam answered, 'You have made a fool of me! If I had a sword in my hand I would kill you right now"

.... then the Lord opened Balaam's eyes, and he saw the angwel of the Lord standing in the road with his sword drawn....

    So he bowed low and fell face down...


    Numbers 25;3   who invited them to the sacrifices to their gods.So the people ate and bowed down before these gods.
So Israel joined in worshipping the Baal of Peor.

...and the Lord's anger burned against them.


  Tony, the god those people worship..in 'church'

the image they have,  is not the God I have come to know.

                                        Sheila

[Cardinal]

My understanding is . . .flesh and blood (natural reasoning) can not teach spiritual truths.  They are of a different nature than knowledge about God.  Knowledge "about" God can be taught, but spiritual truth is planted in seed form into our minds . .which matures on it's own with no interference from me . . . the mind is a womb . .it's purpose is to birth understanding . .not to conjure up an image on it's own . .which if left to it's own devices, does just that.  Which for me, is why 2 Corinthians 10, I believe it is, tells us that we're to "take captive" our thoughts . . .keep them in check . . .

:cloud9: Just wanted to say this is the way I see it too.... :thumbsup:

[\quote] Incidentally, the majority of people on many of these forums . . .especially UR it seems . .. have chosen to not attend a church . . .[/quote]

:cloud9: For me, no choice was given. The last time I went with intentions of "settling in" for awhile, as soon as praise and worship started, He spoke to me, "Make this the last time," as in, make this the last time YOU decide anything.

At that juncture, I had already been pulled out of the churches, but I had missed "mother" (being comforted by the fellowship with the body), and "father", but a man must leave father and mother, at a certain point. Blessings.....

[Nathan]

Incidentally, the majority of people on many of these forums . . .especially UR it seems . .. have chosen to not attend a church . . .so how would these 5 ministries that you quoted, flourish when no one chooses to assemble themselves together as a congregation, but rather, through venues such as this to get their daily bread?

How can a pastor become a pastor when there are no congregations to receive the pastoring?

Therein lies the heart of the problem as to those who post here.

P.S., I hope you don't accuse me of being a mean person and jumping at what you said to make you look bad, but the sword cuts both ways. You stated: "Jesus is a spirit and so are we." Jesus is not a spirit and neither are we. This is just another of the problems I see here. People who think they are being taught by the spirit and are not.

Luke 24:39 Perceive My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself. Handle Me and perceive, for a spirit has not flesh and bones according as you behold Me having."

John 6:63 The Spirit is that which is vivifying. The flesh is not benefiting anything. The declarations which I have spoken to you are spirit and are life.

While Jesus is not a spirit, the declarationns or words which He spoke and which were written down are spirit and life. And how can we be vivified or made alive in our spirit if we don't receive the words He spoke, words which He also gave to the apostle Paul?

I don't ask the above question to learn anything from you, Nathan. I already know the answer to the question. It is just that I am thinking out loud.

Anyway, peace to you Nathan. I don't wish you ill in anything.  :icon_flower:

You don't think Jesus is a spirit?  Seriously?  Just because he "manifested" in the flesh, doesn't mean that he is permanently flesh . . .even Paul referred to our bodies as temporary tents . . .  Jeeze . . .if Jesus wasn't a spirit . .then there's no way the mount of transfiguration would ever have happened. 

Corinthians 3:17
Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.

I don't ask the above question to learn anything from you, Nathan. I already know the answer to the question
This is exactly the point I was making when I said you've already chosen not to understand . . . You don't ask your questions because you want to know more, you ask your questions because you're attempting to prove me wrong.

[Tony N]

Dear brother Bob,
Just a brief note:

Let's have another looky at Romans 5:12:

"Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned" KJV

"Therefore, even as through one man sin entered into the world, and through sin death, and thus death passed through into all mankind, on which all sinned -" Concordant Literal

To say that death passes upon all men BECAUSE all sinned is to undo what Paul just stated.

He just stated that due to what Adam did, that sin entered the world, and through sin death.
So to day that death passed through into all men because all men sinned is to undo the fact that it is because of Adam's sin.

The type now goes to Christ.

(Rom 5:18)  Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for all mankind for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for all mankind for life's justifying."

(Rom 5:19)  For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, the many were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, the many shall be constituted just."

Please, dear friend, notice that we don't get life's justifying because we act righteously. And we don't get condemned because we as humans act condemningly.

All mankind get condemnation due to what Adam did, not what we do.
All mankind get their lives justified due to what Christ did, not what we do.

In 5:19, all mankind are made sinners due to what Adam did, not "because all sinned."
Also in 5:19 all mankind shall be made just or righteous due to what Christ did, not "because all acted righteously."

I hope this helps.

Peace,
Tony

[Tony N]

Dear Nathan,
That scripture does not say "Jesus is a spirit."

2Co 3:17 Now the Lord is the spirit; yet where the spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom."

The spirit of the Lord is that invisible, imperceptible power which gives us freedom.

Jesus told us He is not a spirit. That is the definitive verse. So all other verses which *might* contradict that must be understood so as not to contradict what Jesus said.

Spirit is not like we think of as a ghost. It is sometimes translated "wind" and "breath" "blast" (as in a blast of wind) in the Scriptures.

John 14:7 as "the spirit of truth." Does truth have a spirit like a ghost? No. But the truth has an invisible power to it like wind and breath are invisible.

Romans 1:4 has "the spirit of holiness." Is holiness a God in that it has a spirit? No, but it has an invisible power to it.

Romans 8:15 has "the spirit of sonship."
romans 11:8 "the spirit of stupor."
1 Cor.2:12 "the spirit of the world." That is the invisible power the world has over people.
1 Cor.4:21 "the spirit of meekness."

I could go on and on.

The Lord is the spirit which is that invisible power which causes us to have freedom.

P.S. the mount of transfiguration was just a vision which Jesu and the three disciples all saw at the same time:

Mat 17:9 And, at their descending out of the mountain, Jesus directs them, saying, "Now you may tell no one of the vision till the Son of Mankind may be roused from among the dead."

P.S. p.s. I don't ask questions to prove you wrong. You just normally are wrong. LOL.  :laughing7: It's a joke, Nate.
But really, I ask questions to not prove anyone wrong but to get them to try to think logically and spiritually about their positions as to Natural and Spiritual (the title of this whole thread which I started by the way and so am allowed to ask question).

Jesus is not a spirit.

[Nathan]

Dear Nathan,
That scripture does not say "Jesus is a spirit."

2Co 3:17 Now the Lord is the spirit; yet where the spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom."

The spirit of the Lord is that invisible, imperceptible power which gives us freedom.

Jesus told us He is not a spirit. That is the definitive verse. So all other verses which *might* contradict that must be understood so as not to contradict what Jesus said.

Spirit is not like we think of as a ghost. It is sometimes translated "wind" and "breath" "blast" (as in a blast of wind) in the Scriptures.

John 14:7 as "the spirit of truth." Does truth have a spirit like a ghost? No. But the truth has an invisible power to it like wind and breath are invisible.

Romans 1:4 has "the spirit of holiness." Is holiness a God in that it has a spirit? No, but it has an invisible power to it.

Romans 8:15 has "the spirit of sonship."
romans 11:8 "the spirit of stupor."
1 Cor.2:12 "the spirit of the world." That is the invisible power the world has over people.
1 Cor.4:21 "the spirit of meekness."

I could go on and on.

The Lord is the spirit which is that invisible power which causes us to have freedom.

P.S. the mount of transfiguration was just a vision which Jesu and the three disciples all saw at the same time:

Mat 17:9 And, at their descending out of the mountain, Jesus directs them, saying, "Now you may tell no one of the vision till the Son of Mankind may be roused from among the dead."

P.S. p.s. I don't ask questions to prove you wrong. You just normally are wrong. LOL.  :laughing7: It's a joke, Nate.
But really, I ask questions to not prove anyone wrong but to get them to try to think logically and spiritually about their positions as to Natural and Spiritual (the title of this whole thread which I started by the way and so am allowed to ask question).

Jesus is not a spirit.

This is why I hate debating with the mind of another.  It's just ludicrous to think that Jesus is not a spirit.  He was a spirit before he manifested in the body of flesh, he returned to the spirit after his ministry of redeeming the man of flesh back to God.  So are you to say that Jesus' body of flesh is now seated at the right hand of God . . .literally?

And are you also one that believes truth does not come by way of revelation, but by way of much study and reasoning?

These differences we have are not just small things . . .

Who is the Lord if it is not Christ???  I thought he was King of kings . . .and LORD of lords???  Now you're suggesting there is another?

14But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.  15But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart. 16 Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away

[Molly]

So are you to say that Jesus' body of flesh is now seated at the right hand of God . . .literally?

Now that's a very interesting thought.

Think about it...

[sheila]

   well,I differ with you

  1 Corinthians 15-54

  angels are ministering spirits..they have manifested as men

   [bodies]who ate and drank[Abraham,Lot,Sodom and


Gomorrah..}

..to Joshua.......

  now don't try to convince me that Jesus resurrected body

 was not different than regular flesh..they thought He was

 the gardner, then on the road they didn't recognize him

 He walked through walls, disappeared, ascended up into the

clouds.  Of course his body walked on water before the

 resurrection. His flesh was not conceived even in the regular

  physical way.  He dwelled in a sinless spiritual body.

  Jesus told us 'the Father wants those who will worship him in

 spirit and truth"

 when Jesus ascended ,He said he would not leave us as

orphans, but send us the comfortor..the Holy spirit..He told

 us to receive the Holy spirit.

  He told others,,ye search the scriptures daily..for in them you

  think you have eternal life[John 5;39] These are the scriptures

 that testify about me, yet you refuse to come to me to have

life.  

  Jesus CHRIST [annointed] annointed with the spirit of God

 even the Word of God come in flesh.

...if I speak the Word of God through my flesh to you

  quickened in me by the Holy spirit..which is leading me

 into all the depths of the knowledge of Christ

  [Romans 8;14]  then

 John 8;43  Why is my language not clear to you?

 Because you are unable to hear what I say


 Matthew 23   the teachers of the law and Pharisees sit in Moses seat, So, you must obey them and do everything they tell you. But do NOT DO WHAT THEY DO, for they do not
practice what they preach. They tie up heavy loads and put them on men's shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to lift a finger to move them.

 Everything they do is for men to see. They make their phyacteries wide and their tassels on their garments long,
they love the places of honor at banquets and the  most important seats in the synagogues, they love to be greeted in the marketplace and have men call them Rabbi

 But you are not to be called Rabbi, for you have only one master, and you are all brothers. And do not call anyone on earth father, for you have one Father and he is in heaven
Nor are you to be called 'teacher' for you have one teacher
the Christ[annointed] The greatest among you will be your servant.

  For whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted

 Now the words I just quoted above are the Lord's

[Nathan]

So are you to say that Jesus' body of flesh is now seated at the right hand of God . . .literally?

Now that's a very interesting thought.

Think about it...

Not sure where you're headed with that Molly, but I see this is a picture of Christ returning back to the spiritual authority. . .right hand . .and he's at rest . .seated.  I do not believe his physical flesh is sitting literally next to God . . .is God then a spirit?  I do believe that we all is said and done, we will have these bodies trasformed, but we'll still have bodies . .however, the flesh part must be changed. 

Maybe I should ask this for Tony . . .if Christ is not spirit . . .then what is he?

[Tony N]

Dear Nathan,
That scripture does not say "Jesus is a spirit."

2Co 3:17 Now the Lord is the spirit; yet where the spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom."

The spirit of the Lord is that invisible, imperceptible power which gives us freedom.

Jesus told us He is not a spirit. That is the definitive verse. So all other verses which *might* contradict that must be understood so as not to contradict what Jesus said.

Spirit is not like we think of as a ghost. It is sometimes translated "wind" and "breath" "blast" (as in a blast of wind) in the Scriptures.

John 14:7 as "the spirit of truth." Does truth have a spirit like a ghost? No. But the truth has an invisible power to it like wind and breath are invisible.

Romans 1:4 has "the spirit of holiness." Is holiness a God in that it has a spirit? No, but it has an invisible power to it.

Romans 8:15 has "the spirit of sonship."
romans 11:8 "the spirit of stupor."
1 Cor.2:12 "the spirit of the world." That is the invisible power the world has over people.
1 Cor.4:21 "the spirit of meekness."

I could go on and on.

The Lord is the spirit which is that invisible power which causes us to have freedom.

P.S. the mount of transfiguration was just a vision which Jesu and the three disciples all saw at the same time:

Mat 17:9 And, at their descending out of the mountain, Jesus directs them, saying, "Now you may tell no one of the vision till the Son of Mankind may be roused from among the dead."

P.S. p.s. I don't ask questions to prove you wrong. You just normally are wrong. LOL.  :laughing7: It's a joke, Nate.
But really, I ask questions to not prove anyone wrong but to get them to try to think logically and spiritually about their positions as to Natural and Spiritual (the title of this whole thread which I started by the way and so am allowed to ask question).

Jesus is not a spirit.

Nathan replied: This is why I hate debating with the mind of another.  It's just ludicrous to think that Jesus is not a spirit.  He was a spirit before he manifested in the body of flesh, he returned to the spirit after his ministry of redeeming the man of flesh back to God.  So are you to say that Jesus' body of flesh is now seated at the right hand of God . . .literally?

Tony's reply:
Jesus Himself said He is not a spirit. In 2 Cor.3:17, 18 if it said that Jesus is a spirit then it would contradict what Jesus said: Luk 24:39  "Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.
Well, He came out of the tomb "flesh and bones" and He ascended into heaven as "flesh and bones" so I don't see why He would take His body of flesh and bones to heaven like a suite, take off the suite, hang it in the Sonsuite closet, sit at the right hand of God, then get up, go over to the Sonsuite closet, put his suite back on then come back to earth with his flesh and bones.

The angels told the disciples that He would come back as He left. He left as flesh and bones and will come back as flesh and bones.

Nathan asked: And are you also one that believes truth does not come by way of revelation, but by way of much study and reasoning?

It comes by revelation through much study. . .

2Ti 4:13 "When you come, bring the traveling cloak which I left in Troas with Carpus, and the scrolls, especially the vellums."

Do you think Paul was just going to use the scrolls and vellums of the Sacred Scriptures to start a fire to keep him warm?

And we are supposed to study:
2Ti 2:15  Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

I'm sure Paul meant for us to study the Scriptures.

1Ti 4:13  Till I come, give attendance to reading, to exhortation, to doctrine.
1Ti 4:14  Neglect not the gift that is in thee, which was given thee by prophecy, with the laying on of the hands of the presbytery.
1Ti 4:15  Meditate upon these things; give thyself wholly to them; that thy profiting may appear to all.
1Ti 4:16  Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.

Nathan wrote: These differences we have are not just small things . . .

I would agree with you on that point. Maybe if you gave diligence to reading, meditating, giving heed to the doctrine, study to show yourself approved you'd agree with me more often and thus agree with the Scriptures and there would not be these huge differences? I don't say that to slight you, friend. I know you can say you do all those things but doing them and asking for a spirit of wisdom and revelation in the realization of Him (Eph.1:16) is another matter.

Who is the Lord if it is not Christ???  I thought he was King of kings . . .and LORD of lords???  Now you're suggesting there is another?

Did I say the Lord was not the Christ?

14But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.  15But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart. 16 Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away

Yes, the veil is done away in Christ by the spirit or invisible power of Christ, not by the flesh.

[Molly]

So are you to say that Jesus' body of flesh is now seated at the right hand of God . . .literally?

Now that's a very interesting thought.

Think about it...

Not sure where you're headed with that Molly, but I see this is a picture of Christ returning back to the spiritual authority. . .right hand . .and he's at rest . .seated.  I do not believe his physical flesh is sitting literally next to God . . .is God then a spirit?  I do believe that we all is said and done, we will have these bodies trasformed, but we'll still have bodies . .however, the flesh part must be changed. 

Maybe I should ask this for Tony . . .if Christ is not spirit . . .then what is he?

I'm getting it from past discussions, that the heart is resurrected first--a heart of flesh.

2 Corinthians 3:3
Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart.


That we are/are becoming the word become flesh.

Ezekiel 36:26
A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

...if I speak the Word of God through my flesh to you

  quickened in me by the Holy spirit..which is leading me

 into all the depths of the knowledge of Christ

  [Romans 8;14]

If you are speaking the Word of God, are you then 'the mouth of God'?


Acts 6:7
And the word of God increased; and the number of disciples multiplied in Jerusalem greatly; and a great company of the priests were obedient to the faith.


And if you are the obedient arm of God, are you then seated on the right hand of God?


1 Peter 2:24
Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.

. . .if Christ is not spirit . . .then what is he?

us?


31But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying,

Matthew 22:32
I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.

Romans 12:1
I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.

[Nathan]

Okay, lets hit some of these in the order of which they came . . .

Tony says . .study to show thyself approved . . .
For me, this is not saying revelation comes through studying.  It's saying to me, "when" you read Scripture, you will find is says you are approved unto God.  Not by revelation, but because it says so in print.   There is no purpose for me to study to prove to God how much I know.

I believe if one depends on one's own logic, two things happen. . .#1, you end up in the ditch . . .and #2, you disobey the very word you're trying to adhere to . . .does it not say "lean NOT on YOUR OWN understanding."?

And Tony, you insinuate that you study and I do not . . . you base that on what?  What makes you think I don't read Scripture?  The fact that I'm on this forum everyday SHOULD tell you that there's not a day that goes by when I'm not reading Scripture because so many of the conversations are referring to it and quoting from it.  You don't think the Holy Spirit can show me more than what is already written?  You think that I must rely soley on this Bible . .even though you can seldom find two people that agree with any one translation, interpretation or opinion?  You suggest that I should live on this bread alone?  Do you not know what it means to have the Word Written on your Heart?  Life is not in the book . . .it's in ME.  God changed the venue of how he'd speak to us, and yet you're hanging on to the one that . . .like these bodies . . .was intended to be TEMPORARY.

And this reason you use that Jesus himself said he was not a spirit . . .you do realize that, there "was" an ascension  . .yes?  And that it was 2000 years ago when he said that . . .to a group of men who were freaking out thinking he was a GHOST!  He wasn't trying to give them a spiritual revelation, he was trying to calm them down . .they saw him beaten and buried.  His response was to let them know he was for real . .he was not a vision.  But just because he was for real in the flesh then . . .does not mean that he is still in the flesh now. 

you're missing the entire purpose of his coming.  He didn't do what he did to satisfy the curiosity of the flesh, nor to bring focussed attention to the flesh.  The circumcision that has taken place in us is not a physical one, we are Jewish, but not by physical bloodlines . . . the reason he left the spirit realm and manifested in the flesh . .was so that he could REDEEM the man of flesh back unto God WHO IS SPIRIT.  And if I'm not mistaken . . .he did that to it's COMPLETION.  (It is finished . . .he said that on purpose ya know . . ) Which then means, there's no need for him to return back to the flesh. he's already dealt with that part of man, why would you want to subject him to do it again??  It's not about catering to the flesh, it's about submitting to the spirit.

If it were about prioritizing flesh over everything else, then there would never be the call for walking in the spirit in the first place.  And the reason why there is such a chasm here is because you embrace that which I see we are to let go of.  You can't even see Christ is a spirit . . . that just blows my mind in and of itself.

"Because Jesus told the disciples when they were scared to death of seeing a ghost, that he wasn't a ghost, that must mean that he is in the body of flesh "while" in heaven right now."   

Wow . . . I had no idea that's where you are at.

This passage that speaks of "as you saw him go, so he'll return".  You see that to say . . ."You saw him leave in a body of flesh, so he'll return in a body of flesh . . ."  Yes?  That this is going to happen literally??  Well . . if you take everything literally then . . .could you explain why the angels lied to those standing there?  Because the angels never said "2000 years from now, he's returning in the flesh"  They said "to them"  Just as "you" saw him go "you" will see him return."  If that is to be taken literally as you and others suggest . . .then shouldn't the angels have said "Just as "you" saw him go . . ."others" will see him return.

For me . . .they saw him come through the womb of a physcial person who was bound by the curse of sin and death . . .and when he left, he left IN A RESURRECTED STATE.  And just because Scripture doesn't specifically state that every person standing there did not have Christ reappear to each and every one of them SPIRITUALLY, doesn't mean it didn't happen.

But IF he came back PHYSICALLY to them . . .then everything else that people attach to the physical return of Christ would have to had happened "then" as well . .and the fact that it didn't physically happen would say one of two things for me . . .either the angels lied, or they didn't mean a physical return as so many claim that to mean.

To say that flesh prevails makes absolutely no sense.  And when you're saying that Jesus is still flesh . . .you are also saying flesh has prevailed.  Even though Scripture CLEARLY states flesh profits NOTHING.  So why continue embracing something that has no benefit to it.

Molly, the heart of flesh . . . it's a picture of something hard and brittle to soft and pliable.  God did not tatoo my physical heart . . ."that" would be taking literally.  He transformed my spirit nature . . .it's all INTERNAL . . .invisible . .it can't be seen by the naked eye. 

Are there literal mustard trees in heaven?  Or can we agree that this is a spiritual metaphor?  That's all I'm trying to say . . .these things are all around us . .the kingdom of heaven is "here" it just can't be seen by the natural eye because the kingdom of heaven is not of the natural realm.  And as much as Tony may profess it . . . Christ is not sitting in a natural body of flesh . . .everything is spiritual.

[Molly]

Molly, the heart of flesh . . . it's a picture of something hard and brittle to soft and pliable.  God did not tatoo my physical heart . . ."that" would be taking literally.  He transformed my spirit nature . . .it's all INTERNAL . . .invisible . .it can't be seen by the naked eye. 

But the results can be seen by the naked eye...yes?

As others, and you yourself, change right before your own eyes?

Are we not meant to be carriers of a resurrected seed while in the flesh?  Or else, what is the point?


Hebrews 2:11
For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren,

[sheila]

   Luke 22;15  and he said to them, I have eagerly desired
to eat this  Passover with you before I suffer.

   FOR I TELL YOU I WILL NOT EAT IT AGAIN UNTIL

   IT FINDS FULFILLMENT IN THE KINGDOM OF GOD

  Luke 22;15

   take this and divide among you, For I tell you I will not drink again of the fruit of the vine until the kingdom of God comes

...and He broke bread and gave it to them saying, this is my body given for you; do this in remembrance of me


   Luke 24;30  when He was at the table with them,he took bread,gave thanks,broke it,and began to give it to them

   THEN THEIR EYES WERE OPENED AND THEY RECOGNIZED HIM

      AND HE DISAPPEARED FROM THEIR SIGHT