Natural and Spiritual

[Molly]

5Those who live according to the sinful nature have their minds set on what that nature desires; but those who live in accordance with the Spirit have their minds set on what the Spirit desires. 6The mind of sinful man is death, but the mind controlled by the Spirit is life and peace; 7the sinful mind is hostile to God. It does not submit to God's law, nor can it do so. 8Those controlled by the sinful nature cannot please God.

9You, however, are controlled not by the sinful nature but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ. 10But if Christ is in you, your body is dead because of sin, yet your spirit is alive because of righteousness. 11And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit, who lives in you.

12Therefore, brothers, we have an obligation—but it is not to the sinful nature, to live according to it. 13For if you live according to the sinful nature, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live, 14because those who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God. 15For you did not receive a spirit that makes you a slave again to fear, but you received the Spirit of sonship. And by him we cry, "Abba, Father." 16The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God's children. 17Now if we are children, then we are heirs—heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ, if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory.

--Rom 8


Here Paul sets up a contrast between our sinful nature and the Spirit of God.


8Those controlled by the sinful nature cannot please God.


--which 'sinful nature' we know is the flesh.



We however are controlled by the Spirit, not by the flesh, because of Christ.

If we do not have the Spirit of Christ, we are not his.

But--if we have the Spirit of Christ in us, then we have an alive spirit, a spirit which we received from him--the Spirit of sonship.   That's his Spirit, given to us.  And that spirit (ours now) testifies with the Spirit of Christ that we are now sons.  Two witnesses.


12But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

13Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

--John 1



Flesh gives birth to flesh and Spirit gives birth to spirit.

[Paul Hazelwood]

  and the mannerisms  and personalites are what make us different 
  do you think that is what is  called the soul part ? just wondering
  the soul seems to  describe  the seat of emotions  and appetite 
  because soul and spirit  seem to be  very similar in some ways
  when defining them

I think that is possibly true,  I see that God gave us personalities and emotions and I think that is an essence of who we are and always will be.

The reason I think that is that we constantly try to change others at some point or another. Not that we shouldn't try to help people be better, but what I mean is that we usually try to change someone at the core of who they are rather than hope to see WHO someone is and work from there.   

For instance, I have an aggressive personality,  people try to change me as if that aggressiveness is bad,  but it is not, only how it is used.

Some people try to get more passive people to be aggressive, but a shy person has only been hurt into avoidance rather than seeing how that personality trait when used as God leads can be very powerful.

hope that made sense.

[Molly]

  and the mannerisms  and personalites are what make us different 
  do you think that is what is  called the soul part ? just wondering
  the soul seems to  describe  the seat of emotions  and appetite 
  because soul and spirit  seem to be  very similar in some ways
  when defining them

I think that is possibly true,  I see that God gave us personalities and emotions and I think that is an essence of who we are and always will be.

The reason I think that is that we constantly try to change others at some point or another. Not that we shouldn't try to help people be better, but what I mean is that we usually try to change someone at the core of who they are rather than hope to see WHO someone is and work from there.   

For instance, I have an aggressive personality,  people try to change me as if that aggressiveness is bad,  but it is not, only how it is used.

Some people try to get more passive people to be aggressive, but a shy person has only been hurt into avoidance rather than seeing how that personality trait when used as God leads can be very powerful.

hope that made sense.

That is so true.

He helps us to become more of what we are, because what we are is what he made us to be.  And, so we should allow ourselves that privilege, and so should our friends.  I think we would see a lot more talent in the world if not for oppression and repression--and people who are a lot happier.

[peacemaker]

I can say at this point that I'm only partial preterist...seeing more and more of what was actually fulfilled in 70 A.D.  But I really do like your post, PM...very helpful...

what's your take on the abomination of desolation?  Pretrib rapturers think it's the anti-christ (future) sitting in the (rebuilt?) temple ..hmmmm....maybe not :mnah:...

Also, if the temple's not rebuilt, then the sacrifice and grain offering verse is also a bit problematic wrt to futurism, huh? ...

I haven't followed every post on this VERY long thread...if this is getting too off topic, maybe you could answer me on the "Is rebuilding the temple unscriptural?" thread...THANKS!

If one talks naturally or spiritually it cannot be off topic, but my opinion may not count for much as Albert Einstein said, " Not everything that counts can be counted; not everything that can be counted counts."

Rebuilding of the temple has already been achieved by Christ, and it will be raised up in it's entirety on/through the third day. But the abomination and desolation that Daniel spoke of, and Christ confirmed – was accomplished in their generation.

However, man will again attempt to build his tower of Babel. And the false prophet will continue to endorse "the" so called anti-Christ, as the real thing according to Scripture. Be not deceived, there was never a need for blood sacrificing. Although, Jesus did lay his life down, as He exposed their corruption – the sacrifice – to end all Sacrifices.

No time at present for a full discourse or to expound on this, but wanted you to know that your post was not overlooked, nor out of sight.

We can quote the Bible, listing every verse, but as I ask my daughters, "What is the word saying?" Until one understands from the true heart, man will interpret things to fit their own agenda – controlling and leading many astray, as they, themselves have been led.

There have been some excellent posts on the Natural and Spiritual thread, those whose inner man is renewed – day by day – because the Spirit of the Lord is truly abiding within them. Yet, many are frozen in this dimension called "time" and follow the thoughts of the wise men of Babylon, having only an outward covering which is indeed, very problematic.

I am not a rapture futurist, nor a preterist  ...IST isn't me!

I live for today!

peacemaker

[claypot]

PM, you wrote...

I am not a rapture futurist, nor a preterist  ...IST isn't me!

I live for today!

I like that.

I've been discussing Scriptural things for over 20 years now and in my denseness I see a very clear pattern. We start discussing one thing and pretty soon what we are discussing is so garbeled that it becomes meaningless or at the very least, way off track.

I like to start from a focal point and what you said is it.

I am a man. People are part of me whether I believe it or not. Something created me or I came out of Something 'more' than me. Simple? Yes and no.

If an intelligence has something to do with who and what I am then I think this intelligence would explain who and what I am, maybe not. If the Bible is the explanation then it is definitely written in code. It just doesn't take all those books, all that time, using all those people to explain who and what I am. It doesn't.

I personally think we are being told the same thing over and over again in the Bible just in different ways.

Fire said it all.......But I just never got "my inner Eve" (soul or mind?) and "inner Adam" (soul or spirit??) depending on who is interpreting what when.

I am a person. I have something that makes me alive and I call it spirit. I have something that thinks and feels and I call it soul. It's simple. I have a Bible that can be interpreted and is interpreted as many ways as there are people.

Just venting. Discussion is good but it is just that, discussion. Some call it BS and I think that is appropriate much of the time but those rare moments when light comes on via a discussion makes it all worthwhile, doesn't it?

cp

[Nathan]

Just venting. Discussion is good but it is just that, discussion. Some call it BS and I think that is appropriate much of the time but those rare moments when light comes on via a discussion makes it all worthwhile, doesn't it?

cp

Just like making an ordinary meal really . .. it takes longer to make it than it does to eat it.  The discussions can be the waiting for the water to get to the right temperature before you can add the pasta.  Also . . . the bs discussions are also creating relationships . .so it can't all be bad.   :happy3:

[Molly]

Just venting. Discussion is good but it is just that, discussion. Some call it BS and I think that is appropriate much of the time but those rare moments when light comes on via a discussion makes it all worthwhile, doesn't it?

cp

Just like making an ordinary meal really . .. it takes longer to make it than it does to eat it.  The discussions can be the waiting for the water to get to the right temperature before you can add the pasta.  Also . . . the bs discussions are also creating relationships . .so it can't all be bad.   :happy3:

It creates relationship for me with Him.   That's all I really count on these days.  He always rewards me greatly for talking with other believers, even though the discussions themselves might not be all that 'productive' from the point of view of my eyes.  That church that doesn't want to teach the indwelling Spirit, for instance...

[claypot]

You all are family, no doubt about that. I am thankful. Now back to the natural vs spiritual, huh?

I thank God we humans are so versatile and resiliant and adaptable. We really are. We ask God for health and we get sickness, we ask Him for money and we get more broke BUT we do adapt and we keep coming back for more no matter what. I think that is why I look to the spiritual more than the physical in the words of Scripture, just easier to make more sense out of and actually LESS acrobatics involved than in trying to adapt Scripture to the natural world.

Heard a message here at work, I work in a place where mainline church thoughts are all there is and like you Nathan, if I were exposed, I would be gone. Anyway heard a message by Stuart Briscoe or Driscoe. Your usual message yet I tried hearing with spiritual ears and was blessed abundantly. He tried his hardest to keep Jesus' word meanings in the physical (John 17) but it made so much sense to me as I filtered the whole thing through my spiritual strainer.

cp

[rosered]

  and the mannerisms  and personalites are what make us different 
  do you think that is what is  called the soul part ? just wondering
  the soul seems to  describe  the seat of emotions  and appetite 
  because soul and spirit  seem to be  very similar in some ways
  when defining them

I think that is possibly true,  I see that God gave us personalities and emotions and I think that is an essence of who we are and always will be.

The reason I think that is that we constantly try to change others at some point or another. Not that we shouldn't try to help people be better, but what I mean is that we usually try to change someone at the core of who they are rather than hope to see WHO someone is and work from there.   

For instance, I have an aggressive personality,  people try to change me as if that aggressiveness is bad,  but it is not, only how it is used.

Some people try to get more passive people to be aggressive, but a shy person has only been hurt into avoidance rather than seeing how that personality trait when used as God leads can be very powerful.

hope that made sense.

  Hi Paul ,

  you are maybe  more assertive 1. confidently aggressive or self-assured; positive: aggressive  than aggresive bro  lol ?

  As you know we are being  conformed in the   Image of  Christ , that being    said , I  know the Lord Jesus was confident  and assertive to the Pharrisess  spirits 
For the  the inward man i would say this is the strong man of the house  :thumbsup:

conformed 1) having the same form as another, similar, conformed to
  Image
1) an image, figure, likeness

a) an image of the things (the heavenly things)

1) used of the moral likeness of renewed men to God

2) the image of the Son of God, into which true Christians are transformed, is likeness not only to the heavenly body, but also to the most holy and blessed state of mind, which Christ possesses

b) the image of one

1) one in whom the likeness of any one is seen

2) applied to man on account of his power of command

3) to Christ on account of his divine nature and absolute moral excellence

For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate [to be] conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.


Rom 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.


we are undergoing process of change   within this life  for Gods purpose
    love in Christ .. rose  :HeartThrob:

[Molly]

2) the image of the Son of God, into which true Christians are transformed, is likeness not only to the heavenly body, but also to the most holy and blessed state of mind, which Christ possesses

There you go--his mind is to become ours.


Philippians 2:5
Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:


That mind is part of our inheritance.


Even though we may all look different, with different attributes and gifts,  we all share one Spirit--


11But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.

--1 Cor 12

12For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.


so also is Christ--the anointed One, the Christ, Christos.

[Tony N]

I am curious how many here believe that Christ's death was figurative or literal?
Do you believe He really died or was it something else?

Tony

[Molly]

I am curious how many here believe that Christ's death was figurative or literal?
Do you believe He really died or was it something else?

Tony

Yes, it's all literal, it all really happened, both the Old and New Testament, just as it is reported.

[rosered]

I am curious how many here believe that Christ's death was figurative or literal?
Do you believe He really died or was it something else?

Tony

Hi Tony great  question  bro !!! and this is why  :HeartThrob:



I believe both It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.


1Cr 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam [was made] a quickening spirit.

1Cr 15:46 Howbeit that [was] not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
1Cr 15:47 The first man [is] of the earth, earthy: the second man [is] the Lord from heaven.
that says it all to me
we are to know no man after the flesh not even Christ anylonger  :thumbsup:Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we [him] no more.


2Cr 5:17 Therefore if any man [be] in Christ, [he is] a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

love rose  :HeartThrob:

[Nathan]

You all are family, no doubt about that. I am thankful. Now back to the natural vs spiritual, huh?

I thank God we humans are so versatile and resiliant and adaptable. We really are. We ask God for health and we get sickness, we ask Him for money and we get more broke BUT we do adapt and we keep coming back for more no matter what. I think that is why I look to the spiritual more than the physical in the words of Scripture, just easier to make more sense out of and actually LESS acrobatics involved than in trying to adapt Scripture to the natural world.

Heard a message here at work, I work in a place where mainline church thoughts are all there is and like you Nathan, if I were exposed, I would be gone. Anyway heard a message by Stuart Briscoe or Driscoe. Your usual message yet I tried hearing with spiritual ears and was blessed abundantly. He tried his hardest to keep Jesus' word meanings in the physical (John 17) but it made so much sense to me as I filtered the whole thing through my spiritual strainer.

Oh, and for Tony . . . I'm a Two-fer as well. 

cp

I've been having off-line conversations dealing with this very thing bro . .. there was a time when I was just in awe at how people could read the exact same verses I've read all my life, and they see these things that  . . . feel like electric jolts in me . . .BAM!  And I remember thinking . ..man . . . how come I never saw that before now???  And even now, that question pops up in my church quite a bit.  But it's all about the veils . . .even now people are setting in the pews, going through the motions of having church.  They pay their tithe, sing the songs, hear the sermon, shake pastor's hand and go home . . .and do it over and over and over again and the veil never moves.

But then there are those who just seem to light you up everytime they post!!

[rosered]

2) the image of the Son of God, into which true Christians are transformed, is likeness not only to the heavenly body, but also to the most holy and blessed state of mind, which Christ possesses

There you go--his mind is to become ours.


Philippians 2:5
Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:


That mind is part of our inheritance.


Even though we may all look different, with different attributes and gifts,  we all share one Spirit--


11But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.

--1 Cor 12

12For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.


so also is Christ--the anointed One, the Christ, Christos.

Yes Molly it is a whole new thing sis !

   mind , heart , spirit    
even our soul/ life  is exchnged for   His Christ' s  own  sake  :HeartThrob:
 

For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.
Mat 16:26 For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?

Mat 16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

 

we barter our souls  to Jesus Christ  , that is what Jesus wants 

It is Gods will




And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither [was any] deceit in his mouth.


Isa 53:10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put [him] to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see [his] seed, he shall prolong [his] days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.

Isa 53:11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, [and] shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.

Isa 53:12 Therefore will I divide him [a portion] with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

 the SEED is the WORD OF GOD incorruptible  till we all grow up in Christ / the annointing  Of the Father  ,this working  is the Holy Spirit within us

love rose  :HeartThrob:

[Molly]

 

But it's all about the veils . . .even now people are setting in the pews, going through the motions of having church.  They pay their tithe, sing the songs, hear the sermon, shake pastor's hand and go home . . .and do it over and over and over again and the veil never moves.

That is the fault of the churches, IMO.  They focus the sheep on the natural--your sin, your death, your filthy rags, the death of Jesus, death death death.

Why would I want to look at Jesus hanging on the cross every week?  That is an extraordinarily painful thing for me.  It has caused me pain to look on it since I was a child.

But, what do the angels say?  Don't look back..

Why don't the churches teach us to look on the resurrected Christ, the new Covenant, the new creation which is us, and the great riches we have in Christ Jesus?


They want the walking dead, not the living...easier to control...they don't want the new...they want the old...


15Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.

--Mat23

[chuckt]

Why would I want to look at Jesus hanging on the cross every week?  That is an extraordinarily painful thing for me.  It has caused me pain to look on it since I was a child.

because they hide behind the one tree eating mice.

not only that, but they dont even understand what the cross really did.

Rom 5:10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.    :bgdance:

2Cr 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.


2Cr 5:20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech [you] by us: we pray [you] in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.


2Cr 5:21 For he hath made him [to be] sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him....................... :happy3: :cloud9:


chuckt

[claypot]

I am curious how many here believe that Christ's death was figurative or literal?
Do you believe He really died or was it something else?

Tony

Tony,

YES.

cp

[Molly]

because they hide behind the one tree eating mice.

not only that, but they dont even understand what the cross really did.

Sometimes I think it's because they are bragging on their greatest accomplishment--'killing God.'

And they are just what Jesus called them--children of satan.



John 8:44
Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

[Nathan]

I am curious how many here believe that Christ's death was figurative or literal?
Do you believe He really died or was it something else?

Tony

Yes, I believe He was literally crucified. I see Him fulfilling in his flesh what was figuratively laid out in many paterns

For instance you can see the plan of salvation in the picture of Abel and Seth too. If you start backwards and begin at Gen 5 even what Christ did in the gospels can be seen even way back when

Gen 5:2 Male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in **the day** ~WHEN~ they were created.

and speaks of Psalms 102:18

Psalm 102:18 This shall be written for the generation **to come** and the people which **shall be created** shall praise the LORD.

God calling things that are NOT as though they were in a figure


Ephes 2:10 For **we** are his workmanship, **created in** Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath ~before ordained~ that we should walk in them.

He's speaking of ... by his Spirit (created) NOT after the of FLESH (formed)

Psalm 104:30 Thou ~sendest forth~ thy Spirit, ~they~ are created: and thou renewest the face of the earth. 

John 7:39 But this spake He of THE SPIRIT , which they that believe on him should receive: for THE HOLY GHOST was NOT GIVEN; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.

Which follows the SAME PATERN set in Genesis in regards to Abel (and the shedding of his blood) the "Seth" which root word means "appoint" or to "put" or "setteth in place" (in ones stead). Cain is not counted Abel (the righteous) is slain and Seth is granted to WOMAN = WOMAN ((behold)) THY SON (on the cross)= a disciple shown here

Ecc 4:15 I considered all the living which walk under the sun, with ***the second child** that shall stand up **in his stead**. 

2Cr 5:20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.

Seth is shown (in Gen 4:6) showing that within the patern that its THERE (according to the patern) when men BEGAN to call upon the NAME of THE LORD. And there is no other NAME had been given save the Name of Jesus Christ by whom they are saved. And it reflects the same thing shown there..."Whosever calleth upon the name of the Lord shall be saved".

So as I see Adam was a patern for Christ so also (to me) is found a patern in the blood of Abel. And before the Spirit is breathed onto the disciples ~the shedding of blood~ is also depicted (in Abel) BEFORE God shows what He was doing here...

Gen 5:2 Male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day ~when~ they were created. Gen 5:2 is a recap from the 6th day but God shows FIRST how its laid out, but follows a patern of "formed", "made", and "created" (the first thing shown last) and on the Seventh day what is "formed" is missing from the picture but a MIST goes UP  :bigGrin:

Paul caught this. We are "created" in Christ the one New Man they both (male and female) were named Adam in THE DAY they WERE created.

Gal 3:8 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male and female: for ye are all ONE in Christ Jesus.

You can see a little bit of Jesus here too following the same patern before Gen 5

Heb 10:1 For THE LAW """ HAVING """ A SHADOW OF the good things TO COME, and NOT the VERY IMAGE OF THINGS...

AND Because the scriptures testify of ME

Romans 4:17 calleth **those things** which **BE NOT** AS though they WERE

So when we see this we can SEE Him even here

Gen 4:10 What hast THOU DONE ? The VOICE OF your brothers blood ~CRIETH~ **UNTO ME**  from the ground.

We hear this....

Mat 27:46 JESUS CRIED with A ~LOUD VOICE~, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, ~My GOD~ MY GOD~ Why hast thou forsaken ME?

Jesus fulfills the words of Abel (who cried out TO God but makes no recorded sound) as the are recorded in Christ. Not only so but Jesus also **answers Gods** question put forth to Cain, stepping into His role as The Mediator of the NC (between God and man) crying better words then that of Abel recorded in Christ

God says **to** CAIN

Gen 4:10 WHAT hast THOU DONE?

Luke 23:24 Then said Jesus, Father, FORGIVE THEM; for THEY (the Natural man) KNOW NOT what THEY DO.

Heres the BETTER things He speaks then that of Abel (as his words were recorded in Christ)

Heb 12:24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel. (Abels words are recorded in Christ, they are not recorded in Abel)

Col 1:14 IN WHOM WE have redemption through HIS BLOOD , even FORGIVENESS of sins,

He fulfilled the first. Declaring THE END (of the Law) from The Beginning (Himself) As HE is the Beginning and the End. I see the Cross is as central to these

The faith of Christ

Heb 11:4 By Faith Abel offered a MORE EXCELLENT SACRIFICE than Cain, by which he obtained witness that He is righteous, God testifying of **HIS GIFTS**: and by it he being dead **yet speaketh**

Mat 26:28 For for this is MY BLOOD of the new testament, which is ~SHED~ for many for the remission of sins.

Redeemed by

1Peter 1:19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:

Two trees, two covenants, two seeds (Cain= natural first) Abel = (spiritual man second) SETH is appointed to stand in Abels Stead, this is the SECOND CHILD spoken of Ecclesiastes= and why Jesus says (on the Cross) Woman BEHOLD ~THY SON~.

Unto us a CHILD is born Unto us a SON is GIVEN= Woman behold THY SON = God has granted me another seed in the place of Abel (Vanity) for Cain slew Him. Abels name MEANS VANITY and as a mans thoughts are vanity so also is Childhood and youth VANITY. The creature was subject to Vanity (not willingly) which is ironic thats what Abels name means, through Christ God made foolish the wisdom of this world for the world by its wisdom didnt know Him. We are DELIVERED OF the CHILD = Vanity (my thoughts are not your thoughts) and given a NEW SPIRIT that we might know the thoughts of God through the Spirit (name of Jesus Christ) = Salvation to pass from death to life and know forgiveness of sins (which come by the shedding of blood) shown in Genesis and follows the same patern.

Theres tons more like in Adam and the days specifically and in the "formed", "made" and "created" parts and how God shows first what He does last and how He shows these beautiful pictures of His Son and how the cross is central to it in many ways.

Just because somethings are similitudes doesnt mean they dont have a reality but its often outside that similitude that it finds it and in these cases its in Jesus Christ.

Prov 30:4 Who hath ascended up into heaven, or descended? who hath gathered the wind in his fists? who hath bound the waters in a garment? who hath established all the ends of the earth? what is his name, and what is his son's name, if thou canst tell?

God just concealed the thing in many pictures concerning His Son but that doesnt mean Jesus wasnt the manifestation of all that has been previous hidden in Him. Theres so much in there its impossible to write it all but figures dont mean they dont have a substance, and in this case its Jesus Christ the Son of God.

That's a short way of saying it :laughing7:
I never made the connection there with Jesus passing his mother on to John . . .but now that you put it this way . . .it gives reason to step back and take a closer look at John.  If John represents Seth and Christ was Abel, then as you so elequently put it, Mary, the woman in Jesus life, was passed on to John . .so that John was now in Jesus "stead".  And it was John whom Jesus loved . . .and it was John whom Jesus spared.  And it was John to whom the Father revealed . .who Jesus was.

Wow.

[Nathan]

:grin: No no no, Nat I dont think John represents literal Seth (in the flesh)  no more then I believe the Gospel Paul was made a minister the only minister, the ONE represents the many in Him in both cases. I just see everything locking together on the cross in Genesis in a patern. Jesus called his mother Woman in Genesis when Able was slain God granted her another. Cain is the firstborn of the flesh (it profitteth nothing) and is not counted as those counted for seed are not the children of the flesh but of the promise, not many SEEDS but SEED and John is counted as THY SON same as in Genesis. Abel (the righteous slain) who is the SECOND born (Spiritual) has another stand in His stead and that speaks to leaving us seed and the ambassodors for Christ through who God makes his appeal through. He that receives YOU receives ME and the ONE who sent me type thing.

No I dont think John is a reincarnated Seth  :grin:

But isn't that the pattern?  Abel represents Christ . .Cain kills Abel, man kills Christ.  Seth is given to Eve as the replacement . . .John is given to Mary as a replacement . . .the emphasis for me isn't in John, but in what was given to John.

Then ya got the spirit versus soul . . .I think . .
"I" must decrease that "He" may increase. . . .you have to die to self in order to live in Christ.  I am a new creature . .I am a new Man . . .So I guess what happened with Cain and Abel is just the opposite.  Cain was "supposed" to decrease so that he'd gain the increase of blessing from God.  But instead he rebelled and the disorder that began in Adam, manifested in Cain and as a result . . .death again came into the picture.   

Adam died the day he disobeyed, Abel died the day Cain disobeyed.  Spirit was separated from flesh due to soul exercising authority that was given to the Spirit.


Anyone got anything on why the enmity was only between Eve and the serpent?  Why not Adam, Eve . .and the serpent?

[jabcat]

because they hide behind the one tree eating mice.

not only that, but they dont even understand what the cross really did.

Sometimes I think it's because they are bragging on their greatest accomplishment--'killing God.'

And they are just what Jesus called them--children of satan.



John 8:44
Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

I've got no great respect for the Catholic dynasty, but did you see where the Pope(s) have been tweaking some sort of "Christmas Prayer" or some such thing, apparently trying to appease the Jews?  They are still unhappy and threatening a boycott (? , of what, I'm not sure)...but it's because the "prayer" still indicates the Jews "need to convert"   :mshock:...and they're not real happy about that.  Just an interesting tid-bit I heard yesterday.

[Taffy]

Anyone got anything on why the enmity was only between Eve and the serpent?  Why not Adam, Eve . .and the serpent?

Eve Mother of ALL Living.

Both The Carnal and those of the Spirit , another similitude Nate, One will persecute the OTHER...

[Nathan]

Yeah, but why just Eve . .why was Adam not included?

[Molly]

But isn't that the pattern?  Abel represents Christ . .Cain kills Abel, man kills Christ.  Seth is given to Eve as the replacement . . .John is given to Mary as a replacement . . .the emphasis for me isn't in John, but in what was given to John.

Adam represents Christ--


Adam...who is the figure of him that was to come. [Rom 5:14]

...the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.  [Rev 13:8]


13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last. [Rev 22]

...I am the root and the offspring of David. .. [Rev 22]

...Adam, the son of God. [Lk 3]


Abel represents us before Christ--vanity, meaning in danger of speedy disappearance, temporary--

Seth represents us after Christ--an appointed son, --his name means 'appointed'--and Eve says at his birth--

For God, said she, hath appointed me another seed instead of Abel, whom Cain slew.   [Gen 4]


All sons are appointed by God--Woman, behold thy son--God is appointing John a son, making him brother of Jesus the firstborn of many of brothers.