Hello friends,
In Romans chapter 4, the apostle Paul, the apostle of the nations, told the nations about Abraham. He used Abraham as an example of faith in what God
said and God accounted it to him for righteousness.
Paul said:
Romans 4:16-25 Therefore it is of faith that it may accord with grace, for the promise to be confirmed to the entire seed,
not to those of the law only, but to those also of the faith of Abraham, who is father of us all, (17) according as it is
written that, A father of many nations have I appointed you - facing which, he believes it of the God Who is vivifying the dead
and calling what is not as if it were -" (18) who, being beyond expectation, believes in expectation, for him to become the father
of many nations, according to that which has been declared, "Thus shall be your seed." (19) And, not being infirm in faith, he considers
his body, already deadened (being inherently somewhere about a hundred years) and the deadening of the matrix of Sarah, (20) yet the
promise of God was not doubted in unbelief, but he was invigorated by faith, giving glory to God, (21) being fully assured also, that, what He
has promised, He is able to do also." (22) Wherefore, also, it is reckoned to him for righteousness."
Then Paul told us this:
(23) Now it was not written because of him
only, that it is reckoned to him, (24) but because of us also, to whom it is about to be reckoned, who are believing on Him Who rouses Jesus our Lord
from among the dead." (25) Who was given up because of our offenses, and was roused because of our justifying."
Do you see it? If one just believes God that Christ died for our sins/offenses (see also 1 Corinthians 15:1-4), was entombed and roused the third day
then that one is righteous.
I have posted this on a "Christian" message board and all I get is grief. They don't believe it. They don't believe God concerning this.
They believe that Christ died as a good example to follow and if they somehow do Christ's commandments, they will be saved.
What do you think about this?
Of course we do believe "God will have all mankind to be saved" yet "each in his own order." But being declared righteous by God right now
and enjoying salvation right now is based on faith that what God has said is true.
How would you answer these so-called "Christians"?
We are righteous in Christ in the moment. It only takes faith. We are not righteous if we are walking by the carnal nature. It is a moment by moment thing. God is omnipresent and with us always whether we sin or not, choosing to be in fellowship, walking in the light as he is the light, brings us to the place of knowing His righteousness in us. It is a moment by moment relationship, walking with God.
I believe therfore I speak. Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God. For by grace you are saved through faith, and that not of yourselves lest any man should boast.
If you confess with your mouth Jesus Christ is Lord and believe in your heart God raised Him from the dead, you shall be saved.
Every knee shall bow, whether in heaven or on earth or under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father,
There is something there about the Lordship thing. Believing God raised Him from the dead and bowing the knee are both needed to "come in and sup". But I am not talking about "measuring up". I am simply saying one must bend the knee to receive the benefit of the reconciliation that has already been purchased for all.
And the world was without form and void, and darkness covered the face of the deep, and God said, "Let there be light".
It is God speaking into our chaos that is devoid of the image of Christ that removes the veil of darkness from over the eyes of our hearts and begins the new creation. The first thing He speaks is Christ crucified(Savior) and raised(Lord), because it is the first thing He ever spoke and will also be the last- Alpha Omega Logos, Jesus- the word of the Father , Savior and Lord.
Blessed are those who hear. :o)
I agree with you Tony ,Its alot easier to believe God , than convince man of anything ..lol
I Believe , Just acknowledging Jesus Christ as the Son of God , whom is revealed that by faith as the gift of God /Father gave /Spiritual birthing , being salvation though His son .
No flesh and blood can or does anything spiritual in nature , Its a carnal and a natural born enemy .. being death and "the death state", in my opinion
It is a truth, the dead know nothing about God and never will in that state .
Some how the flesh thinks they can create a god to serve though those empty imaginations and make others slave to it also and do the same , but this is work of their own hands and powers that be in the earthly realm and thoughts of man
Still called earthly sensual and devilish in nature to this day .
The gospel being the "good news" come to prove this FACT and have a relationship with God now , the true and living God by the Spirit and true worshippers not having to wait an literally die , Like mankind has held on to for ages and ages
The book was written as a record to prove that the dead indeed did rise in Christ and still do , not by anything they have done but what GOD has done for them, all that was ever required was an acknowledgment of a sinful nature needing to be forgiven and forgive also and thankfulness and praise to God in faith beliving
Many have entered the HOLY CITY and paradise of God already , Loook at the example of the cross , the thief that admitted his sin and acknowledge Jesus as innocent and remember him , and that was the grace of God in the full impact for anyone
Mankind makes it much harder than it really is with God and always has set up those loads of heavy burden .
with GOD ALL THINGS ARE POSSIBLE and prove
man is an impossible little creature stubborn to the end of his days on earth ...
I am convinced the Last day is the last day your mortal body dwells in the earth as human [you are never mortal again[last day in the earth] like a womb
But we are so much more than just human , God made us after all in His image and likeness from the beginning and so many forget this along the way they call life , Jesus Christ is the proof of that , He has done everything possible ,but what you do with your measure of faith is [gift of God ]
making it more[ increase of God though that faith in Jesus His Only one of the kind son , that more would come though Him or less [burying it in the earth ]
Is yours to have , all things are yours , you have inherited eternal Life by believing GODS WORD AS TRUE BY HIS OWN SPIRIT AND LIFE , HIS Own gift of grace to mankind ...
Quote from: ed on June 05, 2015, 05:37:30 PM
We are righteous in Christ in the moment. It only takes faith. We are not righteous if we are walking by the carnal nature. It is a moment by moment thing. God is omnipresent and with us always whether we sin or not, choosing to be in fellowship, walking in the light as he is the light, brings us to the place of knowing His righteousness in us. It is a moment by moment relationship, walking with God.
All of us in some measure walk by the carnal nature. As James said, "For we all stumble in many ways". As long as we believe and have bowed the knee, we are "the righteousness of God in Christ Jesus" by faith because we can never walk well enough to be righteous.
Our righteousness is both imputed(received with initial belief) and imparted(growing as He grows in us), because we are "in Christ" and Christ is in us. That is not a moment to moment thing, it endures even through our failures because He is faithful to the covenant in His blood, the covenant in which we stand, not by our righteousness, but His.. If we are faithless he is faithful still. If we violate it in our hearts, we have a propitiation for our sins, Jesus Christ the righteous and if we confess our sins He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
To me, confessing is just the same as bowing the knee. Just the acknowledgement that any righteousness in us is of Him. I believe love takes care of the rest, even tho we may struggle believing He really loves us as we are, warts and all.
I believe it Tony....it is the free gift of righteousness of faith not works. Good posts on here.
Quote from: rosered on June 05, 2015, 05:49:55 PM
I agree with you Tony ,Its alot easier to believe God , than convince man of anything ..lol
I Believe , Just acknowledging Jesus Christ as the Son of God , whom is revealed that by faith as the gift of God /Father gave /Spiritual birthing , being salvation though His son .
No flesh and blood can or does anything spiritual in nature , Its a carnal and a natural born enemy .. being death and "the death state", in my opinion
It is a truth, the dead know nothing about God and never will in that state .
Some how the flesh thinks they can create a god to serve though those empty imaginations and make others slave to it also and do the same , but this is work of their own hands and powers that be in the earthly realm and thoughts of man
Still called earthly sensual and devilish in nature to this day .
The gospel being the "good news" come to prove this FACT and have a relationship with God now , the true and living God by the Spirit and true worshippers not having to wait an literally die , Like mankind has held on to for ages and ages
The book was written as a record to prove that the dead indeed did rise in Christ and still do , not by anything they have done but what GOD has done for them, all that was ever required was an acknowledgment of a sinful nature needing to be forgiven and forgive also and thankfulness and praise to God in faith beliving
Many have entered the HOLY CITY and paradise of God already , Loook at the example of the cross , the thief that admitted his sin and acknowledge Jesus as innocent and remember him , and that was the grace of God in the full impact for anyone
Mankind makes it much harder than it really is with God and always has set up those loads of heavy burden .
with GOD ALL THINGS ARE POSSIBLE and prove
man is an impossible little creature stubborn to the end of his days on earth ...
I am convinced the Last day is the last day your mortal body dwells in the earth as human [you are never mortal again[last day in the earth] like a womb
But we are so much more than just human , God made us after all in His image and likeness from the beginning and so many forget this along the way they call life , Jesus Christ is the proof of that , He has done everything possible ,but what you do with your measure of faith is [gift of God ]
making it more[ increase of God though that faith in Jesus His Only one of the kind son , that more would come though Him or less [burying it in the earth ]
Is yours to have , all things are yours , you have inherited eternal Life by believing GODS WORD AS TRUE BY HIS OWN SPIRIT AND LIFE , HIS Own gift of grace to mankind ...
Interesting that the thief on the cross only believed and, due to being nailed to the cross could not do anything to earn salvation.
Quote from: sheila on June 05, 2015, 06:12:57 PM
I believe it Tony....it is the free gift of righteousness of faith not works. Good posts on here.
Truly my Father has revealed this to you. :dsunny:
JOHN AMEN! it is LOVE and Gods love that changes everything , no man have any idea how loved they really are by Gods love and standard
When we do see Him face to face and all will confess , the undeniable LOVE OF GOD will melt the coldest of hearts , every one will have this chance God is fair and good and love and mercy and faithful and true
It just took one encounter with Saul to Paul as a example of this and this was written fro our good to increase our faith
the blindness of Saul was penetrated by by the LOVE OF GOD SEEING JESUS , and how he changed in a twinkling of a eye
He goes on to tell of being in paradise the 3rd heaven and having an out of the body being mortal / spiritual in nature experience
and as one born out of due time , for me this was an near death experience , being lifted up into glory and saying , the things He encountered and the speaking was unlawful to utter or speak of , Paul was seeing the LOVE OF GOD for all mankind and admitted he was the worst of sinners chief ,
being first and foremost in his witness as testimony to betraying Jesus Christ in his former state of being so carnal and animal like in nature
and went on into many revelations about the LORD JESUS CHRIST and His love for us all still in that wretched state .
Jesus Christ opens the scriptures in the book for us and HIS OWN SPIRITUAL Life breathes Life in to us as food for thought and Paul always expounds on Jesus testimony and witness into understanding what is is to be spiritual in nature and how the carnal man thwarts this movement and quenches the Spirit and life in us , seeing the true enemy is death and that is mankinds inheritance all the days of its life
and is the serpents food , dust and scattering to all the ends of the earth till its no more .
When you rise you are immortal and a being to be judged of God and the WORD IS GOD and will be accountable for what you were given and what you held back as a thief all that ever come before Christ was a thief and robber spirit
Robbing of His glory in the earth [mortal] as it is in heaven [spirit]
and the new heavens and new earth are HIS GLORY AND HONOR AND PRAISE and no form of evil will ever be apart of Him and it is a reality not many on the earth ever get to be partakers of .
When you know how blessed you are and THE PURE LOVE OF GOD FLOWS THOUGH ALL THINGS IN THE DWELLING PLACE OF GOD , its the only thing Paul could boast about or even cared too !
Quote from: eaglesway on June 05, 2015, 05:53:36 PM
Quote from: ed on June 05, 2015, 05:37:30 PM
We are righteous in Christ in the moment. It only takes faith. We are not righteous if we are walking by the carnal nature. It is a moment by moment thing. God is omnipresent and with us always whether we sin or not, choosing to be in fellowship, walking in the light as he is the light, brings us to the place of knowing His righteousness in us. It is a moment by moment relationship, walking with God.
All of us in some measure walk by the carnal nature. As James said, "For we all stumble in many ways". As long as we believe and have bowed the knee, we are "the righteousness of God in Christ Jesus" by faith because we can never walk well enough to be righteous.
Our righteousness is both imputed(received with initial belief) and imparted(growing as He grows in us), because we are "in Christ" and Christ is in us. That is not a moment to moment thing, it endures even through our failures because He is faithful to the covenant in His blood, the covenant in which we stand, not by our righteousness, but His.. If we are faithless he is faithful still. If we violate it in our hearts, we have a propitiation for our sins, Jesus Christ the righteous and if we confess our sins He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
To me, confessing is just the same as bowing the knee. Just the acknowledgement that any righteousness in us is of Him. I believe love takes care of the rest, even tho we may struggle believing He really loves us as we are, warts and all.
God calls what is not as if it were (Romans 4). Abraham was not righteous in himself but God reckoned righteousness to him just because he believed God. The rest of Abraham's life he was righteous even if he did some unrighteous things. God looked at him as righteous.
It is the same for us. We, like Abraham only believe God that Christ died for our sins, was entombed and roused the third day. We are declared righteous by God even if we do many unrighteous things in this life. God sees Christ when He sees us since we are "in Christ" and "Christ is in us." God opened our eyes to believe, He gave us the faith to believe and He accounts us righteous. How great is that? :banana:
Jesus the Christ was and is more than merely a good example, although He was THE good [best!] example. He was, and is, the lamb which took, and takes, away the sin of the world.
Sure is a lot of wisdom in this thread. :dsunny:
QuoteInteresting that the thief on the cross only believed and, due to being nailed to the cross could not do anything to earn salvation.
I do not think any mortal man made of the dust of the earth could ever have a clue , dust and ashes is the only offering the earth can give ,
it being the fruit of its doings .. and its not acceptable... GOD MADE A WAY we are to accept the gift of grace , that we could live a new life
and Jesus come in the fulness of time , this being in the middle
[Cross ] of the ages proving that the left and right of Him
is all in His own very
capable hands none can pluck them out of His hand /power
from the darkness on into the Light of the full DAY SON AND SHINE OF HIS GLORY
and powers , the hands means of a power to do , is the act and the right hand is the place of honor
None can even begin to fathom the great LOVE OF GOD in the mortal state of being .
Being born again is the womb state of darkness and hearing , like a baby when developing in the womb , kicks and moves and has life
and a cord that is given full support of the Mother and WISDOM is justified of her children born again spiritual beings
The travail of being born is of great pain and labour of love to make the offspring of Gods holy ones to be revealed
None can know the time of birth This is in the FATHERS discretion and choice only , I believe some are a process and some are birthed instantly in the twinkling of an eye , like the thief on the cross , his day of death was actually his day of Life in the Spirit
BORN AGAIN OF THE LIVING GOD and serving HIM in
Spirit and
truth Why do you think only these two things are required to be immortal for worship of the LIVING GOD ?
The simplicity in Jesus Christ the most beautiful thing, anyone can experience and some it took a lifetime of mortality/death to reach that goal of the higher
existence ..
:HeartThrob: GOD IS LOVE and there is no other way , but LOVE to know HIM this way .but by His own LOVE , JESUS IS THAT WHEN YOU SEE JESUS YOU HAVE SEEN THE FATHERS LOVE for us all . no other way to express it , simply LOVE as the purest form of being connected .
Quote from: Lazarus Short on June 05, 2015, 06:33:18 PM
Jesus the Christ was and is more than merely a good example, although He was THE good [best!] example. He was, and is, the lamb which took, and takes, away the sin of the world.
Amen to that! One day everyone will bask in the rays of God's smile.
In Romans 11 Paul says that they were grafted to the tree by faith, but that if they should become arrogant, they can be cut off.
Romans 11
18 do not consider yourself to be superior to those other branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you. 19 You will say then, "Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in." 20 Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but tremble. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.
22 Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off.
Grafted on due to faith, cut off for arrogance. Behold the kindness and severity of the Lord. This is where the book of James comes in, where he says that Abraham's faith was counted for righteousness when he not only believed God but also acted in accordance with that belief. This has nothing to do with works of the Law but of the Hebrew concept if faith, which goes beyond simple belief, but into the idea of "faithfulness."
Abraham believed God. His belief was reflected in his actions. because He believed, He went forth from Ur. Because He believed He offered isaac upon the altar.
When he failed in faith, lying to a king out of fear, taking Hagar rather than wait for the word of God in Sarah- he was still reckoned as righteous, and delivered through his failures as well as his obedience. His standing never changed. He was still the friend of God, warts and all.
"Nevertheless, God's solid foundation stands firm, sealed with this inscription: "The Lord knows those who are his," and, "Everyone who confesses the name of the Lord must turn away from wickedness." (2 Tim 2:19)
But whenever anyone turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away. 17 Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom. 18 And we all, who with unveiled faces contemplate the Lord's glory, are being transformed into his image with ever-increasing glory, which comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit.(2 Cor 3:16-18)
And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing. 4 The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel that displays the glory of Christ, who is the image of God. 5 For what we preach is not ourselves, but Jesus Christ as Lord, and ourselves as your servants for Jesus' sake. 6 For God, who said, "Let light shine out of darkness," made his light shine in our hearts to give us the light of the knowledge of God's glory displayed in the face of Christ.(2 Cor 4:3-6)
The removal of the veil, the circumscision of the heart, the opening of the eyes of the blind- it is the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ. "Let there be light!" By faith we know that the worlds were framed by the word of God. By grace through faith we have received the word that transforms through introduction to the presence of God.
The Lord knows those who are His. Not all are. Not all who say they are, are.
BTW, altho Paul was changed in an instant, he had been kicking against the pricks for awhile. This means God had been pricking his heart for sometime. "It is hard for you to kick against the pricks"......"Who are you Lord?" :o)
The basic message I get from Romans 11 is that even if one thinks God considers him righteous no matter what he does, because of doctrinal belief in God, you might want to keep in mind that it is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God. I don't believe that God considers rapists to be righteous just because they believe in God. The branches must remain on the tree and produce fruit or be pruned.
"In grace, through faith, are you saved, and this is not out of you; it is God's approach present, not of works, lest anyone should be boasting. (Ephesians 2:8,9)
Have you read the whole chapter?
I am under the impression , that the flesh is what wars against the Spirit all the days its life , and was never meant to BE reconciled to God ...
that muddy old body bag and its sinful state was always going to try to entice sin nature , its lusts are not for proving anything but how very contrary and adversarial it is against the LOVE OF GOD :sigh:
Paul Romans 7 and 8 Said in His mind he does serve the LIVING GOD and it would be though Jesus Christ that He would have this victory . But sensed this contrariness of two natures warring in his own self ..
I believe we fail to pray at first , it is contrary in nature to call out to God for help , it is always sinning and failing
its not human nature to rely on anything but instinct and animal at that , tearing apart anything thing that gets in the way of its own WAY of thinking and course of actions , pleasuring its own self at the sake of the innocent others or rising up as guilty being tempted also to act in a beastly manner by carnal instinct
this is the warring and unfruitful works of darkness in ignorance to the ways of God who is LIGHT AND LOVE
This is why the Spirit intercedes for us in prayer first , because we don't have a clue how to ask God for anything , So very carnal , I remember this plainly at first how hard it was to even pray to God .
Only the Spiritof Christ knows what the SPIRIT of God is doing . Romans 8
...26In the same way the Spirit also helps our weakness;
for we do not know how to pray as we should, but the Spirit Himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words
; 27and He who searches the hearts knows what the mind of the Spirit is, because He intercedes for the saints according to the will of God.
For who knows a person's thoughts except their own spirit within them? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God.
we cannot forget where we came from and out of such a darkness and ignorance to the ways of God and how hard that was to face and go though
Abraham was chosen of God for this old time example of how faith works in us and still does to this day , if we are willing to accept it by faith .
Many cannot in their current'' condition '' it is like being outside and looking into something so obscure and strange , and makes no sense to the carnal mind of mankind the enemy of the Spirit of Gods divine Love and nature in man from the beginning of eating of that tree of knowledge of good and evil
, in Adam all are dead to the Living God and in Christ the Life giving Spirit all are raised up to a higher education and beginning of understanding by the Light of His coming to them on a personal level , none of us can do this act or work of God on our own ,
we can only accept it and many in the times of old were like beasts that even so much as a beast come to the mountain it would be stoned [ death was its sentence] nothing unholy or profane in that condition could enter Gods kingdom
Abraham was the prime example of JESUS CHRIST , Though not knowing this name yet was given the LIVING SPIRIT IN HIM TO WALK WITH GOD and be called a friend of God
before the time , like another one out of due time God of the Living Abraham Issac and Jacob these names given to men that represent the gift of grace before God gave all the chance to enter Gods Kingdom though the SON and the cross where death would no longer reign in the lives of mankind but would be though JESUS CHRIST reigning having the'' keys the understanding'' to unlock the book and unfold the new and holy kingdom that the graves and death could no longer hold mankind too ...
Times is only a human concept that has NO BEARING TO GOD whatsoever :HeartThrob:
HIS PATIENCE IS PROOF OF THAT ..
That none should perish , we have , those have something now to look forward to , just as those did in their day when grace was given even Noah , Daniel and Job the ancient one , that did not come till death came and took us out of the world , We know death was destroyed at the CROSS and many do not even understand this still , When Jesus Cried out'' it is finished and gave His Spirit to God to be poured out upon all flesh !!''
ALL WILL BOAST IN THE LORD OUR GOD ONE DAY ! one beautiful DAY :dsunny: :HeartThrob: GODS LOVE PREVAILS ALWAYS HAS AND ALWAYS WILL .
well..if the receiving of the promised seed depended on the works of Abraham..we would have Ishmael...and no Isaac.
God in fact refused this 'work' of the flesh of Abraham through Hagar. The promise came through God's miraculous
regenerative powers of conception given unto Sarah..whose very womb was good as dead.
the arrogance in this matter was exhibited by Hagar unto Sarah..cause she give birth after the natural in the flesh
and not according to the promised 'word of God" while Sarah appeared to have bore no fruit . Sarah humbly
was willing to accept this 'seed' of Abraham as her own..but God had something much better in mind for Sarah
He exalted the humble..and cast out the arrogant.
problem is...it was a long time coming....for the fruit...why so long..that they both reckoned their bodies as
good as dead. SO THE FRUIT IS MIRACULOUS and not just Abraham's work..but an actual work of God!
so, it is hard to judge by appearance[I have fruit/you do not and become arrogant in it]
Right, Isaac became a symbol of those who received the Holy Spirit, and therefore the fruit that they produced is not by their own, as contrasted against Ishmael who symbolizes those who are pursuing righteousness under the Law. But those symbolized by Isaac do produce good fruit by the water that comes from the earth into the Vine and through to the branches. As Paul said, if we have received the Spirit, let us also walk by the Spirit. And so when Jesus compares himself to a Vine in John 15, he is encouraging the same. There is a difference between branches that stay on the Vine for more PRUNING, and branches that whither and die and are cut off the tree. So back in Romans 11, I believe Paul is reinforcing that by saying that though they were grafted to the tree by faith, they better check their arrogance against the natural branches or God will cut them off too. How far will imputed righteousness carry us if we become cut off the tree for arrogance?
1 John
7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
I love every part of that. Yes we all have sin.......we fall short.
If we are cleansed from ALL SIN, we are righteous, in the moment.
When we sin we get a conscious reminder, if we have the desire to continue to walk in the light.
The issue is always sin. What do you say sin is?
Can you tell when you are righteous and when you are not?
I believe sin is missing the mark of love. That's why the Law is hung upon love and why sin is lawlessness.
Quote from: Seth on June 05, 2015, 08:57:48 PM
Right, Isaac became a symbol of those who received the Holy Spirit, and therefore the fruit that they produced is not by their own, as contrasted against Ishmael who symbolizes those who are pursuing righteousness under the Law. But those symbolized by Isaac do produce good fruit by the water that comes from the earth into the Vine and through to the branches. As Paul said, if we have received the Spirit, let us also walk by the Spirit. And so when Jesus compares himself to a Vine in John 15, he is encouraging the same. There is a difference between branches that stay on the Vine for more PRUNING, and branches that whither and die and are cut off the tree. So back in Romans 11, I believe Paul is reinforcing that by saying that though they were grafted to the tree by faith, they better check their arrogance against the natural branches or God will cut them off too. How far will imputed righteousness carry us if we become cut off the tree for arrogance?
I believe this is because they are like Paul said , the jews seek a sign all the time and the other nations knowledge
Both are missing the mark to me ,
It is the LOVE OF GOD THAT FULFILLS THE WILL OF GOD this powerful and moving energy source of HIS OWN SPIRIT AND TRUTH OF IT , the witness in the earth testifies of it .. and Jesus Christ is HIS NAME all power was given to the SON , THE SON WAS SENT BY GOD LAST to prove this
That the LIGHT HAS COME AND THE DAY IS HERE AND no one can see the DAY AND LIGHT OF THE KNOWLEDGE OF GODS SPIRIT MOVING in mankind by the source of His gift of LOVE TO US
Their own carnality strives again the Spirit believing there must be more than this ???
Its cannot be this simple or pure and holy and meaningful
Our own flesh cannot even touch the purest LOVE OF GOD , they have been separated for a long time now , but time has no meaning to Gods plan
Hebrews 4
Hebrews explains alot of why we cannot ''get close to God while being physical creatures no different than beasts of whom also He created on the sixth day ,
it is so hard and crude and everything against Gods nature proven of just how far man will go to exalt himself against everything in this life God made even them , even God himself to utter blasphemy :sigh: denying their very maker .
ONLY HE CAN have mercy on Whom he will have mercy and harden whom He will harden to the point of a fire blown , broken pieces of of a ready heart to receive Him , this he will not despise ,
and it is what it takes
to change some
It is our hearts revealed to God and what love is there or the lack there of His eyes are ever before us all ...
Quote from: Seth on June 05, 2015, 09:21:47 PM
I believe sin is missing the mark of love. That's why the Law is hung upon love and why sin is lawlessness.
Amen no man can know the depths of Gods Love , He is the proven source and power of ALL LIGHT AND LOVE that ever come into being
No words can describe this powerful action of what LOVE really is , none know till they can experience it for themselves and it will be just as the knew all along , but never understood it like,,,
all revelation is coming forth from Gods truth and Spirit .. there is no other source , we can only know some of it by walking in the Spirit and out of the body of death , some never do till the body of death is totally out of the way for good
IT IS GODS LOVE that saves the world !!
Quote from: Seth on June 05, 2015, 07:07:04 PM
In Romans 11 Paul says that they were grafted to the tree by faith, but that if they should become arrogant, they can be cut off.
Romans 11
18 do not consider yourself to be superior to those other branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you. 19 You will say then, "Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in." 20 Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but tremble. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.
22 Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off.
Grafted on due to faith, cut off for arrogance. Behold the kindness and severity of the Lord. This is where the book of James comes in, where he says that Abraham's faith was counted for righteousness when he not only believed God but also acted in accordance with that belief. This has nothing to do with works of the Law but of the Hebrew concept if faith, which goes beyond simple belief, but into the idea of "faithfulness."
Not quite there yet Seth.
Paul said Abraham was considered righteous by God more than 400 years before the law was given.
James was dealing with justification and how Abraham was justified by his acts. James is works based belief and Paul is faith based belief.
Also in Romans 11 the NATIONS are grafted into the olive tree and it is due to God's kindness. This is not talking about individual people getting lopped out of the tree but nations. If God withdraw His kindness from the nations then the nations will no longer be His light bearers which is what the olive tree represents and the duties of the light bearer will go back to Israel who will be grafted back in.
Nothing can separate the individual believer from the love of God.
Quote from: Seth on June 05, 2015, 07:18:58 PM
The basic message I get from Romans 11 is that even if one thinks God considers him righteous no matter what he does, because of doctrinal belief in God, you might want to keep in mind that it is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God. I don't believe that God considers rapists to be righteous just because they believe in God. The branches must remain on the tree and produce fruit or be pruned.
Seth, that was written to those believers under law. It is not written to believers of the nations. In fact it was written to Hebrew believers because the book is titles "Hebrews."
Again, the branches of the olive tree are not individual believers but rather the nations. Individual believers can never be cut out of Christ. Even the Corinthian boy caught having sex with his dad's wife was given over to Satan so his spirit would be saved. But the boy is still righteous in God's eyes though he did need disciplining. Nothing can separate us (believers of the nations) from the love of God. We are sealed with the spirit of promise for the day of deliverance.
Quote from: ed on June 05, 2015, 09:14:29 PM
Can you tell when you are righteous and when you are not?
In God's eyes, the one who believes Him that Christ died for our sins/offenses, was entombed and roused the third day, is righteous no matter what.
That does not mean we can do whatever we want in sinning because God will see to it we will need disciplining should that be the case. Yet in His eyes
we are still righteous just as Abraham was for just believing God.
Quote from: Tony N on June 05, 2015, 09:42:36 PM
Quote from: ed on June 05, 2015, 09:14:29 PM
Can you tell when you are righteous and when you are not?
In God's eyes, the one who believes Him that Christ died for our sins/offenses, was entombed and roused the third day, is righteous no matter what.
That does not mean we can do whatever we want in sinning because God will see to it we will need disciplining should that be the case. Yet in His eyes
we are still righteous just as Abraham was for just believing God.
That is an interesting doctrine Tony, I have been in groups that believed just as you say.
You can be a Christian who believes as you say and yet walk in darkness, conformed to this world. In God's eyes you are exactly that. God's desire is that we walk in the light as He is the light. We can't do that if we don't see the sin and think that we are righteous even though we choose to sin.
There is also sin that we don't see because we have not yet matured enough to deal with it. God works with each individual believer and their sin issues. That is why I say yes we are righteous in the moment, when we are submissive to God's lead, and walk in that righteousness. It is still faith. It is impossible to please God without faith.
Quote from: Tony NNot quite there yet Seth.
Paul said Abraham was considered righteous by God more than 400 years before the law was given.
James was dealing with justification and how Abraham was justified by his acts. James is works based belief and Paul is faith based belief.
Right, that means James is not dealing with works of the Law in his statement, but works that proceed by faith. That is why he begins James 1 by talking about how we are born again by the will of God, not by our own works, then proceeds, like Paul, to say that if we have received the Spirit, let us also walk according to the Spirit.
Quote from: Tony NAlso in Romans 11 the NATIONS are grafted into the olive tree and it is due to God's kindness. This is not talking about individual people getting lopped out of the tree but nations. If God withdraw His kindness from the nations then the nations will no longer be His light bearers which is what the olive tree represents and the duties of the light bearer will go back to Israel who will be grafted back in.
Nothing can separate the individual believer from the love of God.
In Romans 11, Paul is contrasting BELIEVERS vs UNBELIEVERS not nation vs nation. The natural branches were cut off because of UNBELIEF. The wild branches were grafted in because of belief. Nobody can be grafted onto the tree except that he first believes. Nobody can haplessly be part of the olive tree just because he is a citizen of a particular nation, but only because he beliefs.
So, Paul's message is that BELIEVERS can be grafted in
by belief and BELIEVERS can be cut off
due to arrogance.
Quote from: Tony NSeth, that was written to those believers under law. It is not written to believers of the nations. In fact it was written to Hebrew believers because the book is titles "Hebrews."
The book of Hebrews does not name itself "The book of Hebrews" so that title is irrelevant as proof of anything. Again, Hebrews is talking about believers having returned to sin after having received full knowledge of the truth.
QuoteAgain, the branches of the olive tree are not individual believers but rather the nations.
That is impossible because it says that a person can be grafted to the tree WITHOUT BELIEF. ONLY BELIEVERS are grafted to the tree, not whole nations regardless of faith.
Just because someone is a member of a worldly nation does not automatically make one grafted to the tree.Again, we are grafted to the tree by BELIEF. We can be cut off for arrogance.
Quote from: Seth on June 05, 2015, 09:21:47 PM
I believe sin is missing the mark of love. That's why the Law is hung upon love and why sin is lawlessness.
:thumbsup:
the righteousness that comes by faith says faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God.
James said, "You believe God is one? the devils also believe and tremble.
I believe a person may be in immense bondage, but be considered righteous, if they believe and agree that Jesus Christ is Lord and that He was raised after being crucified for us.
A person who walks willingly towards darkness is not a believer. A person who is bound in darkness may be a believer, and will be delivered one way or another.
Paul put it like this in Romans 6
Just as you used to offered yourselves as slaves to impurity and to ever-increasing wickedness, so now offer yourselves as slaves to righteousness leading to holiness. 20 When you were slaves to sin, you were free from the control of righteousness. 21 What benefit did you reap at that time from the things you are now ashamed of? Those things result in death! 22 But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life. 23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
The spark of a desire to walk with Christ is the evidence that Christ is in us and we are in Him, no matter how bound in failure we may be. It is the beginning of the process and the "Let there be light" spoken into our chaos.
Ro 7:21 So I find this law at work: Although I want to do good, evil is right there with me. 22 For in my inner being I delight in God's law; 23 but I see another law at work in me, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within me. 24 What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body that is subject to death? 25 Thanks be to God, who delivers me through Jesus Christ our Lord!
So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God's law, but in my sinful nature a slave to the law of sin.
Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, 2 because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit who gives life has set you free from the law of sin and death.
So the repentence that accompanies faith brings us into Christ, the process is to get free from the slave, which occurs through grace and the renewing of the mind by the Spirit.
There is no entering Christ by a faith that involves no repentence because repentence is simply a change of mind that accompanies faith in Him as Savior and Lord. A recogniton of His Lordship and the nature of it(the love walk) is a part of that believing. So, if sin abounds in a believers life, grace will abound all the more. God will see only that desire in the heart to be in union with Him regardless of the bondage. That is why Paul says the foundation of God is sure and bears this engraving, "The Lord knows those who are His and let every one who names the name of the Lord turn from(in the heart attitude) iniquity."
I hope we are not dancing around fine lines or differences in perspective and terminology- but if we are saying that recognition of His lordship and submission to it at least in heart desire is not a necessary facet of the faith that delivers/makes whole/saves, I would disagree.
The subjection of adversaries begins with the heart won by love through a revelation of who Jesus is.
Quote from: ed on June 05, 2015, 10:17:24 PM
Quote from: Seth on June 05, 2015, 09:21:47 PM
I believe sin is missing the mark of love. That's why the Law is hung upon love and why sin is lawlessness.
:thumbsup:
Sin misses the mark. Love makes up the difference.
Quote from: ed on June 05, 2015, 09:50:51 PM
Quote from: Tony N on June 05, 2015, 09:42:36 PM
Quote from: ed on June 05, 2015, 09:14:29 PM
Can you tell when you are righteous and when you are not?
In God's eyes, the one who believes Him that Christ died for our sins/offenses, was entombed and roused the third day, is righteous no matter what.
That does not mean we can do whatever we want in sinning because God will see to it we will need disciplining should that be the case. Yet in His eyes
we are still righteous just as Abraham was for just believing God.
That is an interesting doctrine Tony, I have been in groups that believed just as you say.
You can be a Christian who believes as you say and yet walk in darkness, conformed to this world. In God's eyes you are exactly that. God's desire is that we walk in the light as He is the light. We can't do that if we don't see the sin and think that we are righteous even though we choose to sin.
There is also sin that we don't see because we have not yet matured enough to deal with it. God works with each individual believer and their sin issues. That is why I say yes we are righteous in the moment, when we are submissive to God's lead, and walk in that righteousness. It is still faith. It is impossible to please God without faith.
I understand what you are saying Ed. The interesting part is that after Abraham was declared righteous by God just because he believed God is that God told him to walk before him flawlessly. Of course that is the ideal. We should try to never do anything to displease our Lord or cause sorrow to the holy spirit. Yet, just in case we fail and we often will, we should remember that even though we regret our mistakes, God sees us as He sees Christ . . . perfectly righteous.
Quote from: Seth on June 05, 2015, 10:07:25 PM
Quote from: Tony NNot quite there yet Seth.
Paul said Abraham was considered righteous by God more than 400 years before the law was given.
James was dealing with justification and how Abraham was justified by his acts. James is works based belief and Paul is faith based belief.
Right, that means James is not dealing with works of the Law in his statement, but works that proceed by faith. That is why he begins James 1 by talking about how we are born again by the will of God, not by our own works, then proceeds, like Paul, to say that if we have received the Spirit, let us also walk according to the Spirit.
Quote from: Tony NAlso in Romans 11 the NATIONS are grafted into the olive tree and it is due to God's kindness. This is not talking about individual people getting lopped out of the tree but nations. If God withdraw His kindness from the nations then the nations will no longer be His light bearers which is what the olive tree represents and the duties of the light bearer will go back to Israel who will be grafted back in.
Nothing can separate the individual believer from the love of God.
In Romans 11, Paul is contrasting BELIEVERS vs UNBELIEVERS not nation vs nation. The natural branches were cut off because of UNBELIEF. The wild branches were grafted in because of belief. Nobody can be grafted onto the tree except that he first believes. Nobody can haplessly be part of the olive tree just because he is a citizen of a particular nation, but only because he beliefs.
So, Paul's message is that BELIEVERS can be grafted in by belief and BELIEVERS can be cut off due to arrogance.
Quote from: Tony NSeth, that was written to those believers under law. It is not written to believers of the nations. In fact it was written to Hebrew believers because the book is titles "Hebrews."
The book of Hebrews does not name itself "The book of Hebrews" so that title is irrelevant as proof of anything. Again, Hebrews is talking about believers having returned to sin after having received full knowledge of the truth.
QuoteAgain, the branches of the olive tree are not individual believers but rather the nations.
That is impossible because it says that a person can be grafted to the tree WITHOUT BELIEF. ONLY BELIEVERS are grafted to the tree, not whole nations regardless of faith. Just because someone is a member of a worldly nation does not automatically make one grafted to the tree.
Again, we are grafted to the tree by BELIEF. We can be cut off for arrogance.
If you say so.
like everything else...the devil's apparently in the details of this free gift of righteousness. :sigh:
I get tired of joy being raised in the hearts of His people..like the op Tony wrote. Everyone praising God etc
for what He does..then someone comes along and throws a wet blanket on it....and OH NO! it isn't a free gift... :eeew:
it depnds on you after all!!!!!!! :eek:
Goes to show..what's impossible with men..is possible with God!
what,pray tell..is arrogant about believing Jesus was/is the son of God,was crucified and died and resurrected?
how is it arrogant to have God reckkon you as righteous for believing it? It is God who reckkons it.
are we arrogant for believing Him? seems to me that putting faith in
this leaves off any boasting in the flesh[arrogance] Your'e righteousness MUST exceed the Pharisees.........
they didn't believe He was the son of God...Lord..what works must we do...'you must believe him who was sent to you"
This is My son..LISTEN TO HIM.. He told the Pharisee's and Sadducee's...the HARLOTS ARE ENTERING THE KINGDOM
BEFORE YOU!!!!! How is a harlot more righteous in God's sight then the religious leaders who had no sin[cough! cough!]
Be CAREFUL NOT TO DO YOUR ACTS OF RIGHTEOUSNESS BEFORE MEN
The gifts and calling is without repentance on God's part[just as all Israel will be saved/though severely chastised]
Now,I ask you....Because some become arrogant and are corrected..does that make the righteousness reckoned to us
by God for believing Jesus Christ is the son of God,was crucified,died and resurrected as no account?
Jesus Christ is the light..so how can a plague of darkness[Egypt] befall those who believe in Him?
do we not all see through a glass darkly while in this shroud of flesh? Sometimes all people see is a light at the
end of the tunnel.
BECAUSE YOU SAY YOU SEE.....YOUR SINS REMAIN
the Saints were overcome..the dragon trampled them under his feet..
WHEN I RETURN WILL I FIND FAITH ON THE EARTH?
Read Matthew ch 6 and see what He says are acts of righteousness. secret giving and mercy and compassion
prayer and fasting in secret...forgiveness. don't worry..don't judge other's.
If God says He reckon's you righteous for it..who is any man to disagree...or cause other's to shrink back through fear
those example's are for reminders/signpost's of what pleases Him and what does not. and when we Love Him we
want to please Him the best we can. and calling Him a liar is not the way
It's all about the love in the heart..both for God and your fellow man
I agree with your original premise Tony. There is a large group of Christians (as you ran into on the other board) that believe Jesus only gives the opportunity for them to perform good enough to please Him, and then they MIGHT make it. I grew up in that doctrine. Performance, works, being good enough to qualify to keep salvation. I don't believe it. I do believe in obedience, but that neither takes the place of or supplements the work of the cross.
I believe the olive tree analogy is primarily about nations and administrations, rather than specifically individuals. Jesus and His work on the cross. Not works or performance. Belief on His name through being drawn by the Spirit, then after that is growing, obedience, maturity. Too many scriptures say things like children of God are sealed by Spirit unto that day, the gifts and calling of God are irrevocable.
Quote from: eaglesway on June 05, 2015, 10:19:07 PM
I believe a person may be in immense bondage, but be considered righteous, if they believe and agree that Jesus Christ is Lord and that He was raised after being crucified for us.
:thumbsup:
What Jesus did and does, not what we did or do..other than believe/trust Him.
Jn. 1:12 but as many as did receive him to them he gave authority to become sons of God -- to those believing in his name,
"And the other answering, rebuked him, saying, 'Dost thou not even fear God, that thou art in the same judgment?
And we indeed righteously, for things worthy of what we did we receive back, but this one did nothing out of place;'
And he said to Jesus, 'Remember me, lord, when thou mayest come in thy kingdom;'
And Jesus said to him, 'Verily I say to thee, To-day with me thou shalt be in the paradise" [Luke 23:40-43]
In the records above, according to Jesus Christ Himself, acknowledging ones guilt, recognising His Lordship in the flesh and pleading His blessing, knowing that the Innocent One would die a painful and humiliating death out of His Love, was enough for salvation - even before Jesus' reappearance three days later.
Personally, I place the recorded words of Jesus Christ, the expressed Image of God, first and foremost, before assessing the inspired teachings and spiritual messages of men.
Sitting at the feet of the Master Christ in awe and reverence and knowing full well that I am a sinner who is lost without Him, I find that listening to others from that position only, helps me to hear the Spirit message underneath before it is clothed in human language, inspired opinion, allegory, simile, hyperbole or poetry. When I do this, I find that the scriptures in the Sacred Record take on another, to me, truer dimension - personally.
Quote from: sheilaI get tired of joy being raised in the hearts of His people..like the op Tony wrote. Everyone praising God etc
for what He does..then someone comes along and throws a wet blanket on it....and OH NO! it isn't a free gift... 
it depnds on you after all!!!!!!! 
If you look at what I said, I never said it depends on us. I said that righteousness is a result of the Spirit within. Sorry that speaking about works of love is considered a wet blanket.
Quote from: sheilawhat,pray tell..is arrogant about believing Jesus was/is the son of God,was crucified and died and resurrected?
Nothing.
Quote from: sheilahow is it arrogant to have God reckkon you as righteous for believing it?
It's not. In Paul's example, it's arrogant to boast over the natural branches. His example was arrogance following belief and what happens when that occurs.
Quote from: sheilaNow,I ask you....Because some become arrogant and are corrected..does that make the righteousness reckoned to us by God for believing Jesus Christ is the son of God,was crucified,died and resurrected as no account?
No, not of no account. But if one, as in Romans 2, continues to pursue evil, his belief in Christ and assumed imputed righteousness won't be much good because God will repay each according to their works.
Sorry, I know that sounds like a wet blanket, but it's in the Bible.
Quote from: sheilaJesus Christ is the light..so how can a plague of darkness[Egypt] befall those who believe in Him?
It can befall them if they grumble and return to Egypt...
Quote from: jabcatPerformance, works, being good enough to qualify to keep salvation.
The idea of "keeping salvation" has to do with the doctrine of hell. In other words, they believe that "performance" keeps one out of hell. You know I don't believe in hell. However, I do believe in salvation from SIN, and I do believe that a man is a slave to whatever he submits himself to, and if his "performance" is to believe in Jesus but return to slavery to that which he desires to serve, he has indeed lost that salvation. That is why Peter (2 Peter 2) says that it would have been better that they had not believed because when a dog returns to the vomit, it comes out worst than when it started.
Paul is pretty clear that unbelievers cannot be cut off the tree, because it takes belief to be grafted on in the first place. So whether someone says it is individual or national, what's clear is that it's believers that can be cut off for arrogance.
Quote from: Tony N on June 05, 2015, 10:55:03 PM
I understand what you are saying Ed. The interesting part is that after Abraham was declared righteous by God just because he believed God is that God told him to walk before him flawlessly. Of course that is the ideal. We should try to never do anything to displease our Lord or cause sorrow to the holy spirit. Yet, just in case we fail and we often will, we should remember that even though we regret our mistakes, God sees us as He sees Christ . . . perfectly righteous.
After reading your post more closely I think we are saying pretty much the same thing.
When I look at you and others I see Christ...................Christ working, and his work.
When I listen to you....(or read you).....I hear doctrine.
I do enjoy throwing it around at times......all in good fun.
Have a good weekend!
:thumbsup: Lastpost.
"He chooses us in Him before the disruption of the world, we to be holy and flawless in His sight." (Ephesians 1:4)
"In Whom you also--on hearing the word of truth, the evangel of your salvation--in Whom on believing also, you are sealed with the holy spirit of promise (which is an earnest of the enjoyment of our allotment, to the deliverance of that which has been procured) for the laud of His glory!" (Ephesians 1:13,14)
"And do not be causing sorrow to the holy spirit of God by which you are sealed for the day of deliverance." (Ephesians 4:30)
1 John 2:19
They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.
Matthew 7
15 Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. 16 By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles?
Hi Seth. I think a good case could be made that neither of those scriptures are talking about believers, truly having been drawn by the Spirit and given faith to believe, thereby making them a new creation. Similar to the "depart from Me I NEVER knew you". :2c:
On the other hand, although I don't believe a child of God flips back and forth from being a son to being a bastard based on whatever happens in their works each day, still I'd personally rather see people take following the Lord seriously, than to have an "I don't care, God's got it" attitude. I've seen both sides of the extreme. :)
I don't believe most folks who strongly believe one way or another are likely to suddenly change to a different perspective during such discussions. Maybe there's subtle growth that takes place though, and maybe some who are truly struggling can benefit from seeing the various points of view. :dsunny:
Well, I agree with you because I believe in the persistence of the saints, but it's worth pointing out that Jesus doesn't say "depart from me you who aren't believers." He says "depart from me you who work iniquity"
If the point is that those who work iniquity aren't real believers, that pretty much validates what James says "faith without works is dead."
Ha, we've chased that one before. lol
I don't believe that means someone can have the faith of Jesus imparted into them through the Holy Spirit, then sealed by the same Spirit unto that Day, and that that faith is dead or of absolutely no effect to the renewing of that person's spirit (as I believe when the above truly happens, the renewing of the spirit is accomplished, done deal). I believe it has other implications, as was hammered out a few months ago in another thread ( things like "dead" to others, no effect as to spreading the gospel, to growing, maturing, being obedient, attaining rewards and position of service based on faithfullness, etc.).
But that's old hat for us old-timers. :gimmefive: Again, I'd rather folks take following the Lord seriously anyway. Maybe a little hell has been good for some of us along the way. :) God knows.
I re-read your last line about James/faith/works/dead. I see what you're saying, but I'm afraid it must be a big context, too much for my tired (lazy) brain right now. :mblush:
Quote from: jabcat on June 06, 2015, 12:52:30 AM
a big context
like huge sections of the Bible :laugh:
Quote from: jabcatI don't believe that means someone can have the faith of Jesus imparted into them through the Holy Spirit, then sealed by the same Spirit unto that Day, and that that faith is dead or of absolutely no effect to the renewing of that person's spirit (as I believe when the above truly happens, the renewing of the spirit is accomplished, done deal).
I believe the same thing. Whoever God has chosen will be given faith and grown in the Spirit. Since we don't know who that is (because of our limited knowledge) Peter says make your calling and election sure.
Quote from: jabcatI believe it has other implications, as was hammered out a few months ago in another thread ( things like "dead" to others, no effect as to spreading the gospel, to growing, to being obedient, to attaining rewards and position of service based on faithfullness, etc.).
Yes all that. Plus Romans 2. God will reward each according to their works.
Romans 2
4 Or do you despise the riches of His goodness, forbearance, and longsuffering, not knowing that the goodness of God leads you to repentance? 5 But in accordance with your hardness and your impenitent heart you are treasuring up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, 6 who "will render to each one according to his deeds":[a] 7 eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; 8 but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath, 9 tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek; 10 but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who works what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. 11 For there is no partiality with God.Quote from: jabcatBut that's old hat for us old-timers.  Again, I'd rather folks take following the Lord seriously anyway. Maybe a little hell has been good for some of us along the way. :) God knows.
:HeartThrob:
Quote from: Seth on June 06, 2015, 12:35:42 AM
Well, I agree with you because I believe in the persistence of the saints, but it's worth pointing out that Jesus doesn't say "depart from me you who aren't believers." He says "depart from me you who work iniquity"
If the point is that those who work iniquity aren't real believers, that pretty much validates what James says "faith without works is dead."
Hi Seth I believe that is going on now , He causes them to feel the rejection and they are held in darkness
'' in a strange way ''..
Look at the ones whom thought
they were the righteousness of God and told Jesus '' they see'' ..... to them woe woe woe '' judgement '' fiery trials are coming on you ..... it is in the earth the light they hold so dearly is the light of darkness and the wisdom of men , only to burned as nothing before Him needing the eye salve for healing those sore eyes and shame of their nakedness appearing , burnt up like a filthy garment Matt 23
"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites!
You shut the door of the kingdom of heaven in people's faces.
You yourselves do not enter, nor will you let those enter who are trying to. We can certainly see this , even to this day ...
Only God can give rest , there is no other peace except in Jesus Christ , the ones whom shut the door in Jesus Christ face , are the ones who only have the opportunity to live the judgement being your house is left to you desolate and you will only be able to say , Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord .... they did not take heed to the time of their visitation
Jesus come as a thief in the night to them , darkness and ignorance all around as they sleep the sleep of death in their own mortality
and the wise and foolish virgins are the one and the same as the sheep and goats , the Sheep hear His Voice when the Spirit speaks they listen and the sheep go toward Him , the wise kept the oil and the lit lamps burning , those who did not seek or ask or find Him , were left in the dust
only to find they would have to search and buy of those sellers themselves and that is all the religious pomp and air and stuff all that mast explaining what to do to enter heaven all those ways and wise words a new devised ways of learning , no different than a thief and robber spirit toiling to enter under their own conditions .. :sigh:
But Jesus told us how to already take up your cross and follow Him he is meek of spirit and lowly of heart and there you will find rest for your souls ... we follow His voice and where ever He sends us we follow after Him , because trusting Him is the only way by the purest form of worship Spirit and truth , we call upon the name of the LORD JESUS CHRIST , He is our only help in the hour of need and even those whom sinned against Him can and will be forgiven , not first but last , it maybe when they actually physically die even . and held till Jesus comes to them in their torment FACE TO FACE they cannot come back here no more and relive that part ever again but sure wish they would have listened
to HIS VOICE as many refreshing waters ,
that deep regret .
28"Come to Me, all who are weary and heavy-laden, and I will give you rest. 29"Take My yoke upon you
and learn from Me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and YOU WILL FIND REST FOR YOUR SOULS. 30"For My yoke is easy and My burden is light."
"where sin increases, grace superexceeds" (Romans 5:20)
Titus 2:11-14
11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
12 Teaching (paiduo - scourging) us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;
13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.
Titus 3
3 For we ourselves also were sometimes foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving divers lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful, and hating one another.
4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,
5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;
7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
8 This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men.
Quote from: Seth on June 06, 2015, 02:04:24 AM
Titus 2:11-14
11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
12 Teaching (paiduo - scourging) us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;
13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.
Yes!! This is speaking of this time and this life , a more abundant one found in Christ Jesus ..
"Nothing, consequently, is now condemnation to those in Christ Jesus." (Romans 8:1)
John 15
5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.
7 If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.
8 Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples.
9 As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love.
10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.
:thumbsup: perfect !! perfect Love :HeartThrob:
great scriptures guys
I didn't always believe I was safe in God's hands only due to His work on my behalf and unmerited gift to me. In fact, I fought it for a long time and argued against it - and kept trying to "stay saved" by my works and effort and failing miserably. Realizing over time that it's about Him in me, and His love constraining me. I still don't believe grace or eternal security is a license to sin, as I believe the works of the Holy Spirit either bring a believer into obedience (while comforting us with assurance of His grace being sufficient in our failures of flesh), or if stubbornly willful and disobedient, suffer the consequences of loss of joy and peace in this life, as well as loss of rewards in the next.
An interesting view of abiding in Him;
John 15:6: "If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned." But 'abiding' in Christ is the same as believing, as shown by comparing the use of the word in John 6:56 ("He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me, and I in him.") and 1 John 4:15 ("Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God."). Notice these are written by the same author. The one who does not abide/believe is cast out and burned [disciplined, corrected, suffer loss].
If anyone would like to see a good, sound case about what it means to be secure in Christ, here's an interesting article with which I have a lot of agreement (except for the non-UR parts :). Besides that, I think the author makes many excellent points.
http://www.equipsaints.org/EternSec.htm
QuoteI didn't always believe I was safe in God's hands only due to His work on my behalf and unmerited gift to me. In fact, I fought it for a long time and argued against it - and kept trying to "stay saved" by my works and effort and failing miserably. Realizing over time that it's about Him in me, and His love constraining me. I still don't believe grace or eternal security is a license to sin, as I believe the works of the Holy Spirit either bring a believer into obedience (while comforting us with assurance of His grace being sufficient in our failures of flesh), or if stubbornly willful and disobedient, suffer the consequences of loss of joy and peace in this life, as well as loss of rewards in the next.
I actually felt the same way as you did when I believed in hell. When I stopped believing in hell I began to understand that what Jesus is warning about is ourselves and the suffering we can bring upon ourselves through sin.
When he says "if you keep my commandments you shall abide in my love" his commandments are more than to believe, John. These are his commandments, that you believe in Jesus and love eachother. We cannot take one and leave the other. That's
1John 3:20.
This is what I believe James is talking about in James 2. He's talking about that second commandment "...and love eachother."
I think the stern warnings of the New Testament are about loving eachother so as not to destroy ourselves.
Amen,,, the both you ! Blessings brothers in Jesus Christ !! :HeartThrob:
I went though the same trials of faith and dead works all my life , until I surrendered and asked God'' please Help me a sinner Lord ''
I need your love and mercy and grace , we cannot begin to love God or love each other , until we are ''healed '' and made whole in Christ and it is in His long suffering towards us that we might live and serve the LIVING GOD in the ways He desires now and there is no end to this ever lasting Love , it can only get better as more and more are Lifting Him up and drawing all men unto Himself as was gathering the fragments that remain that none would be wasted or lost ....
I see this as the bread of heaven and feeding His flock , that all that was given was returned to Him with interest or ''adding to the number '' of believers
...11Jesus then took the loaves, and having given thanks, He distributed to those who were seated;
likewise also of the fish as much as they wanted.
12When they were filled, He said to His disciples, "Gather up the leftover fragments so that nothing will be lost."
13So they gathered them up, and filled twelve baskets with fragments from the five barley loaves which were left over by those who had eaten....
The symbolism in the Bible are beautiful and we see Jesus in them all :HeartThrob:
:HeartThrob:
Quote from: ed on June 05, 2015, 09:14:29 PM
Can you tell when you are righteous and when you are not?
I don't believe we always can, but I can say this, if you care, you are. Those who are struggling with the acceptance of God may be under strains, stresses, deceptions of different measure and impact. The accuser of the brethren stands before the Lord of the whole earth day and night, and you can be sure he attacks the saints, surrounding them if he can, wearing them out when he can. But if we are defeated that does not mean we are unrighteous. It means we dont know we are righteous. But if we do not care, we are not righteous- no matter what we believe.
Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God, but sometimes the adversary intercepts the word of forgiveness and the word of freedom. Author of confusion and father of lies. Condemnation stymies grace- but grace is the only means to freedom. Whatever cuts us off from grace binds us to sin. It is, BY GRACE THROUGH FAITH. Confession, "Lord have mercy on me, a sinner" is free.It is a good place to begin, because then we can hear the word.... You Are Forgiven. "If we confess our sins(to Him) He is FAITHFUL to forgive us aour sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
But we have to believe that for it to do us any good today. It may be true but that is only ultimet salvation if we cannot hear it today. Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God. Yet even then, when reading the word. Many cannot hear the word of reconciliation. When they read the word they can only see the stain of sin and the judgment of God. So then, prayer is the answer, because only our connection to Him by the Spirit is sufficient to open our ears, so that our mind can be renewed, and the word of reconciliation become fruitful. Grace flows through the connection. "Great grace was upon them all and the word of the Lord grew and multiplied."
We try to achieve assurance through the mind and fail. No doctrine supplies assurance. A deeper relationship is the only source of assurance.
For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved.
Heart belief yields salvation, which is healing/deliverannce/restoration.
What we desire is to be restored, but we cannot be restored through a doctrine- no matter how liberal or legalistic. It is with the heart we believe. From the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks. If our hearts have "heard" the word of reconciliation we have the seed- but it must be planted(embraced unto death), rained upon(the patient husbandman waits for the early and the latter rains), and then patient endurance in hearing and walking in what is heard brings confidence and strength.
"In repentance and rest is your deliverance. In quietness and trust is your strength."
We think as tho salvation is a transaction that is over and done, but this does not satisfy or supply assurance. It is abiding in relationship that brings the further deliverance that is "salvation" (healing/deliverance/restoration) of mind body and soul. "The one who calls upon the name of the Lord shall be saved"- What? Once? No. Continually calling, crying out, searching and communing with God through Christ is the WAY. The way is the process of salvation. Adam and Eve hid in the garden because they were condemned, they were ashamed.
A beiever does not need to hide. He has stretched His arms open wide to forgive- and even more, will rain down love and assurance on any who will hear the word with faith. Faith is the gift of God lest any man should boast- so pray for the gift. God will give it.
We all know that the salvation of all is a done deal. Already paid for. But what good is that to me if I struggle in bondage and chains of fear and condemnation. Am I saved?
I am-objectively. Its a fact. Even if i am faithless He is faithful still.
But only in objective truth and in finality- but not, TODAY. Am I saved(healed/delivered/made whole) TODAY?
Perhaps not- experientially.
Yet, experiential salvation is what we are offered in our gospel- IN ADDITION TO THE ESCAPE FROM KOLASSIS, AIONIAN. If we say that everyone who believes that Jesus is vivified is saved- Well, that may be true as a distant destination and a backstop assurance for eternity and the age to come- but the only way to experience salvation TODAY is to walk in the spirit by grace through faith. "As you received your salvation so also walk ye in it". Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God.
The grace of God TEACHES US- to deny ungodliness, but still- many of us fail everyday. We all stumble in many ways. So we wrestle with God and come up in Romans 7......While I agree with God that the law is good as I try to practice righteousness I find myself serving a different law in my flesh."
But the flesh has been rendered dead. DON"T LISTEN TO THE DEAD MAN TALKING. He is saying- "You are not good enough. That's just a feeling. Look at your failures. How can you be the righteousness of God in Christ?"
Because He says I am. Realize that the old man is dead, crucified with Christ, buried in baptism. Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God. TODAY if you hear His voice harden not your heart.
As you hear(let the ones who have ears to hear hear) you will grow. As you pray, calling upon the name of the Lord, "Deliver me O God"- He will show Himself mighty to save.
If you languish in the mind and are unable to move into heart belief, you will still have ultimate salvation from death and reconciliation by His blood but it will not save you TODAY. You will struggle with doubt and be plagued by the accuser of the brethren.
But we cannot move from the mind to the hear on your ownt. No one can. Only God can take us from the wilderness into the land of promise. So what do we do?
We pray. We exhort one another to love and good works. We cry out to God and call upon the name of the Lord. Soon, if not suddenly, FAITH COMES, BY HEARING, the ears of our heart open, the Spirit strengthens oour inner man with GRACE, and SALVATION BREAKS OUT .......In Our Experience.
Quote from: sheila on June 05, 2015, 11:17:12 PM
like everything else...the devil's apparently in the details of this free gift of righteousness. :sigh:
I get tired of joy being raised in the hearts of His people..like the op Tony wrote. Everyone praising God etc
for what He does..then someone comes along and throws a wet blanket on it....and OH NO! it isn't a free gift... :eeew:
it depnds on you after all!!!!!!! :eek:
Goes to show..what's impossible with men..is possible with God!
what,pray tell..is arrogant about believing Jesus was/is the son of God,was crucified and died and resurrected?
how is it arrogant to have God reckkon you as righteous for believing it? It is God who reckkons it.
are we arrogant for believing Him? seems to me that putting faith in
this leaves off any boasting in the flesh[arrogance] Your'e righteousness MUST exceed the Pharisees.........
they didn't believe He was the son of God...Lord..what works must we do...'you must believe him who was sent to you"
This is My son..LISTEN TO HIM.. He told the Pharisee's and Sadducee's...the HARLOTS ARE ENTERING THE KINGDOM
BEFORE YOU!!!!! How is a harlot more righteous in God's sight then the religious leaders who had no sin[cough! cough!]
Be CAREFUL NOT TO DO YOUR ACTS OF RIGHTEOUSNESS BEFORE MEN
The gifts and calling is without repentance on God's part[just as all Israel will be saved/though severely chastised]
Now,I ask you....Because some become arrogant and are corrected..does that make the righteousness reckoned to us
by God for believing Jesus Christ is the son of God,was crucified,died and resurrected as no account?
Jesus Christ is the light..so how can a plague of darkness[Egypt] befall those who believe in Him?
do we not all see through a glass darkly while in this shroud of flesh? Sometimes all people see is a light at the
end of the tunnel.
BECAUSE YOU SAY YOU SEE.....YOUR SINS REMAIN
the Saints were overcome..the dragon trampled them under his feet..
WHEN I RETURN WILL I FIND FAITH ON THE EARTH?
Read Matthew ch 6 and see what He says are acts of righteousness. secret giving and mercy and compassion
prayer and fasting in secret...forgiveness. don't worry..don't judge other's.
If God says He reckon's you righteous for it..who is any man to disagree...or cause other's to shrink back through fear
those example's are for reminders/signpost's of what pleases Him and what does not. and when we Love Him we
want to please Him the best we can. and calling Him a liar is not the way
It's all about the love in the heart..both for God and your fellow man
I dont think anyone is being a wet blanket on anyone. This a forum. We discuss things. We work it out in the fire and iron shapens iron. I for one am responding also as one seeking to clarify what Tony is saying(for myself) because it is easy to say happy things, nevertheless everything must be tested and the testing proves the metal.
Disagreeing with another persons point of view is not calling God a liar, and asserting that repentance is a part of belief is not saying it depends on you. Faith produces repentance. It is one way that grace manifests, and as with Abraham.....faith moves from one place to another place- it does not stay the same.
I am not saying Tony is talking about mental assent- I was not sure tho, so I tested the word he delivered. I agree in part(ultimately all will be saved). I disagree in part. Those who say to the Lord, "Lord, Lord, didnt we do mighty works in your name...." must have believed that Jesus was crucified for sin and raised from the dead. Yet, they enter kolassis.
I am interested Tony- how does this work in your paradigm?
I remember one Christmas Day, hearing a sermon I never forgot.
The theme was, who do you hitch your star to?
I think faith, as eaglesway said, is not of the intelligence or knowledge, but of the heart.
And he said: "Truly I tell you, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven".
Our faith must be like that of a child's. Trusting; not self-serving and innocent. We must look to God, as a child looks to a parent.
Psychologists tell us, that when a child is growing up, they must learn to seperate their own identity from their parent's, as they mature.
But, to have the faith of a child, perhaps that is key. We have our identity in Christ risen.
I believe true faith lets go of ourselves as central, and hitches our star to Christ.
Gal. 2:21, "I do not nullify the grace of God; for if righteousness comes through the Law, then Christ died needlessly".
Believing that works of our own account saves us, is making ourselves to be our Savior. No one can save us but Jesus....we are not worthy enough to save ourselves,
because we are 'dead in our own sins'.
So, we must deliberately accept the free gift of Grace, which was given in love by Christ, specifically to save us.
That puts Christ in the spotlight, and not ourselves.....'so that no one can boast'.
...7so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9not as a result of works, so that no one may boast....
By putting Jesus first, we allow Him to control our lives, and not ourselves. That is when He is the vine and we are the branches.
...4"Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself unless it abides in the vine, so neither can you unless you abide in Me. 5"I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing. John 15: 4 - 5
Beautiful....as only God would think of.
:2c:
QuoteBelieving that works of our own account saves us, is making ourselves to be our Savior. No one can save us but Jesus....we are not worthy enough to save ourselves,
because we are 'dead in our own sins'.
So, we must deliberately accept the free gift of Grace, which was given in love by Christ, specifically to save us.
That puts Christ in the spotlight, and not ourselves.....'so that no one can boast'.
I agree with this Dandelion. Though, I don't think it means that works have NOTHING to do with salvation. The question I ask is what do works have to do with salvation? After all, Apostle James said this:
James 2
14 What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works?
Can that faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is without clothing and in need of daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, "Go in peace, be warmed and be filled," and yet you do not give them what is necessary for their body, what use is that? 17 Even so faith, if it has no works, is dead, being by itself.
He asks, "can that faith save him?" But, save him from
WHAT? James was certainly not talking about hell. As Eaglesway said, Peter said that we are to be saved "from this wicked generation." And, Jesus came to save us from sin. So, I think James's point is if we say we believe in Christ but our works are no different from "this wicked generation" that we are supposed to be saved from, then how are we saved?
Do I believe "works of our own account" save us? No, I don't. But I do believe that works
of a certain kind do save us, just not of our own account. Here is what I mean:
Titus 3
3 For we ourselves also
were sometimes foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving divers lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful, and hating one another.
4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,
5
Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy
he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
I think to me it's clear that our own righteous does not save us, but the Holy Spirit does, and the Spirit changes our works, thus saving us from sin. So when James says, "what if someone says he has faith but no works, can that faith save him?" Well, using the Titus 3 scripture, what if someone says he has faith but is "serving divers lusts" can that faith save him from saving divers lusts?
Outside of theology, it makes common sense. What must a man do to be saved from drug addiction? Many people would probably say, you need to get clean. That's common sense. But the moment theology gets involved, it's like that goes out the window, and suddenly we can be saved from sin without works. Nobody is going to be saved from drug addiction by saying "I believe in Jesus" and leaving it at that. If he does, he will stay a drug addict.
I think Jesus Christ did all the "work" that's necessary for the salvation of all mankind when he died on the cross, and he even accomplished what was necessary to reconcile all on the earth and in heavens to God. I think the "works" of us who are of the nations, the ecclesia, the body of Christ, are the fruits of our salvation, not the means to it, and this is something we've debated before and agreed to disagree on as I remember. We all have our own perspective on scripture. I'm not putting anybody else down or trying to convince anybody else to believe what I do. I'm just expressing my own opinion.
According to Paul the washing and renewing of the Holy Spirit results in being saved from serving divers lusts. Servitude to lust is a work. According to Paul the Holy Spirit saves us by causing us to stop doing that. So, the changing of the works is what saved them from that.
According to Paul in Romans 5, it wasn't Christ's death that saved us. It's his LIFE that saves us. His death made peace with man, but it's his life that does the saving work. Romans 5:10
What Jesus did "at the Cross" was not the end of the story. There's also the matter of what he did 3 days later.
Think of salvation from an ancient Semitic point of view, as the spaciousness existing for a plant that grows up out of the ground.
Think of works as the branches of that particular tree.
Do the branches cause the tree to be able to grow up out of the ground?
Does the tree growing up out of the ground enable the branches to appear?
Can you have fruit without any branches?
Can you have branches without any fruit?
If so, what purpose does the fruit serve?
What purpose do the branches serve?
Ronen
Yes, and I would ask, if a cherry tree isn't producing fruit, what can save it from not producing fruit? Give it some water, prune it. Then it will produce fruit.
I think God saves us.
I was given a vision of an apple tree...and there was only one Branch on the tree that was fruitful..but boy how fruitful
that branch was! for it......covered almost the whole tree! and the apples were so huge and perfect that I was amazed that
the Branch was strong enough to bear all that fruit without breaking or bending.
none of our salvation depends on our own works. Atonement and passover prove that point,as far as I'm concerned.
a perfect Lamb free of blemish was required...and all of us have 'sin' and are not perfect. God will not accept
our diseased blemished sacrifices as atonement. However we can partake of the Lamb/body and blood and partake
in HIS SACRIFICE WORKS through the HOLY SPIRIT.
Jesus said 'I do the works of the Father" and did not even claim any works done through Him..but give the glory
and honour unto Him. God can do a work through an ass if He wants....you can do nothing of yourselves.
so really salvations and it's works are done of God by His spirit and will...and He will use men to do them as He
pleases. that is why Him giving us ..gifts of men for the ministry is just that GIFTS.............everyone needs to
quit claiming the power of God and the Holy spirit as if it was some personal righteousness of themselves.
what we can do is offer ourselves unto Him for reasonable service unto Him and let His spirit flow through us
to do His will..as He pleases.and bring forth His 'good' works. But don't call anyone a good christian for it..because
Jesus said 'why do you call me good, there is only one who is good, the Father in heaven"
Learn the lesson of the power of God shown through Moses and the staff..... the staff/rod thrown down on the ground
becomes a serpent....pick up the staff in the hand and it is a shepherds staff/rod of rule.
men get in and out of the flesh and spirit....get in the flesh..and your a serpent on the ground.....get in the spirit
and your a staff/rod in His hand.
God has planned to make all men righteous...just as all men have bore the image of the corrupt,so,too,shall all
bear the image of incorrupt[righteous]...but even then..'our' righteousness is really of Him..when He is all in all
because what [spirit] is inside of us[Him] we shall be Holy/RIGHT/JUST.......
:thumbsup:
I love the metaphors of the bible speech , trees and branches.... praise and fruits unto the Lord ...
trees of righteousness
The Year of the Lord's Favor
...2To proclaim the favorable year of the LORD And the day of vengeance of our God; To comfort all who mourn,
3To grant those who mourn in Zion, Giving them a garland instead of ashes, The oil of gladness instead of mourning, The mantle of praise instead of a spirit of fainting. So they will be called oaks of righteousness, The planting of the LORD, that He may be glorified.
4Then they will rebuild the ancient ruins, They will raise up the former devastations; And they will repair the ruined cities, The desolations of many generations....
Cross References
Matthew 15:13
He replied, "Every plant that my heavenly Father has not planted will be pulled up by the roots.
1 Corinthians 3:9
For we are co-workers in God's service; you are God's field, God's building.
Hebrews 1:9
You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness; therefore God, your God, has set you above your companions by anointing you with the oil of joy."
Psalm 23:5
You prepare a table before me in the presence of my enemies. You anoint my head with oil; my cup overflows.
Psalm 45:7
You love righteousness and hate wickedness; therefore God, your God, has set you above your companions by anointing you with the oil of joy.
Psalm 104:15
wine that gladdens human hearts, oil to make their faces shine, and bread that sustains their hearts.
Psalm 149:4
For the LORD takes delight in his people; he crowns the humble with victory.
Isaiah 26:2
Open the gates that the righteous nation may enter, the nation that keeps faith.
Isaiah 44:23
Sing for joy, you heavens, for the LORD has done this; shout aloud, you earth beneath. Burst into song, you mountains, you forests and all your trees, for the LORD has redeemed Jacob, he displays his glory in Israel.
Isaiah 46:13
I am bringing my righteousness near, it is not far away; and my salvation will not be delayed. I will grant salvation to Zion, my splendor to Israel.
Isaiah 52:1
Awake, awake, Zion, clothe yourself with strength! Put on your garments of splendor, Jerusalem, the holy city. The uncircumcised and defiled will not enter you again.
Isaiah 60:20
Your sun will never set again, and your moon will wane no more; the LORD will be your everlasting light, and your days of sorrow will end.
Isaiah 60:21
Then all your people will be righteous and they will possess the land forever. They are the shoot I have planted, the work of my hands, for the display of my splendor.
Jeremiah 17:7
"But blessed is the one who trusts in the LORD, whose confidence is in him.
Jeremiah 17:8
They will be like a tree planted by the water that sends out its roots by the stream. It does not fear when heat comes; its leaves are always green. It has no worries in a year of drought and never fails to bear fruit."
Jeremiah 31:13
Then young women will dance and be glad, young men and old as well. I will turn their mourning into gladness; I will give them comfort and joy instead of sorrow.
Ezekiel 34:29
I will provide for them a land renowned for its crops, and they will no longer be victims of famine in the land or bear the scorn of the nations.
Ezekiel 47:7
When I arrived there, I saw a great number of trees on each side of the river.
yes..because God's spirit is all that is in them[no evil rebellious spirit] I MAKE all things new.
My take on works, is that they are important, but occur when we allow God access to our lives, and not by our own power. When we believe in Him, have faith in Him, and trust Him to direct our lives, then we are in His will, and our actions and deeds will reflect this. We are the body of Christ....in Him we live and move and have our being. It says in the Bible, without Him, we can do nothing.
He is the one from whom all good comes. There is no light, except for the Light of the world, Jesus. As long as we are in His Light, our deeds will reflect this light...this love from God.
I do not pretend to know how this works for unbelievers. It says in the Bible, that God causes the sun to shine on the good and the bad alike. I would not be surprised, if, insofar as they can receive it, God gives His grace to them, in some way, as well. God's ways are not ours. Perhaps some works are of the flesh and some of the spirit. This is something I do not completely understand, and for now, it will need to be this way.....unless one of you can give me a convincing insight into it....... :gimmefive:
...44"But I say to you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven; for He causes His sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46"For if you love those who love you, what reward do you have? Do not even the tax collectors do the same?... Matthew 5: 44 - 46
:2c:
AMEN !! :dsunny: :HeartThrob:
I believe God saves us entirely. There is no place where the scriptures say anything different. But we must respond to God, there are a hundred places in the scriptures that say that.
"The one who says he loves God but hates his brother walks in darkness still."
Is that man saved? He says he loves God. He says he believes.
Lord, Lord, didnt we do mighty works inyour neame?......Depart from me yu lawless ones, into the fire prepared for the devil and his angels.
What were they saved from?
They new of his atoning death and resurrection, but they did not know Him. And their works proved it!
So is it about works? NO. It is about knowing Him. Knowing Him is salvation. Connection to the Vine involves repentence. If there is no repentence there is no faith, no change, no grace, no healing.
Does God give it? Certainly. It is the gift of God lest anyman boast.
But it definitely involves a change of heart and mind, which the scriptures call repentence among other things. THAT IS THE HEALING, a RENEWED MIND, and eventually it will manifest.
In my opinion to discuss "salvation" from a point of view that takes two or three scriptures and tries to limit it to those verses is just old fashioned denominational thinking.
Jesus said that eternal life is to know the Father and Jesus whom He has sent. It doesnt say that eternal life is "knowing ABOUT" the Father. He says it is knowing Him. Salvation is knowing Him.
This is where the issue is concerning salvation- not doctrinal lines of where it ends or begins. It begins and ends with "KNOWING HIM" and communing with Him- thats where the transmission of grace is taking place for growth in the salvation received by MEETING HIM.
Depart from me you lawless ones I never knew you......."But Lord, LORD...."
"But Lord, didnt I believe you died for me and were raised from the dead?"
"I was thirsty and you gave me drink"
I am saying that this whole focus on exactly where the line is between salvation by works versus salvation by grace is a huge red herring.
Salvation is by grace through faith. IT IS AN INTRODUCTION INTO A RELATIONSHIP. It produces good fruit and good works and a heart toward God and if it doesnt it isnt saving.... save Greek- sozo, to deliver, heal, make whole, restore.
I always get curious about how we get so into the greek and Hebrew until we get to this word "saved".....
At that point it seems all scholarship and common sense flies out the window.
To be "saved" is to be
delivered -from being an adversary of God
healed- in the mind body and soul
made whole-taken from brokeness and brought into strength
restored- to become a child of God ministering as a disciple of the Savior
This happens through a connection "I am the true vine" "If you abide in me your fruit shall remain" "If you do not abide in me you will be withered as a branch, cut-off, gathered and thrown into the fire"
This is the picture Jesus Himself draws and it is all about salvation and how it works. This desire to make it an issue that focuses on "What you know" and "What you believe about this or that" it really just old time religion.
If you know Him and He knows you, you have been saved, you are being saved and you will be saved- if you continue in relationship. If you continue faithful, if you abide.
If you do not respond to God you will be withered, and eventually cut off. That is kolassis for ya. But you have to be really willful and disobedient for that to happen because I have struggled and failed a thousand times on a thousand fronts but God has been robust in His love for me and grace towards me.
The whole "losing salvation" discussion for instance- is another BIG red herring.
DO YOU KNOW HIM. Where is Jesus in your life today? Are you connected? You say you don't feel connected? Let's talk about that. You say you are struggling with some sins? Let's talk about that! You say you are afraid God is judging you? Let's talk about that!
Let's get in closer to Jesus together and talk about it. Get your salvation off the drawing board and bearing fruit TODAY, IN YOUR LIFE.
Lets work it out with awe and reverence, calling upon Him together.
And let me tell you, if you arent interested in pressing in, in struggling, in seeking- you wont likely see it happen. You will struggle on in bondage wondering if you are saved or not instead of BEING SAVED though KNOWING HIM and ABIDING IN FELLOWSHIP with Him
If a plant is in the ground and oft drinks the rain and produces no fruit it is good for nothing but to be cut down and burned.
But a plant WILL bear fruit if it is CONNECTED and RECEIVING RAIN AND SUN.
So salvation is about the connection. That is how it starts- get connected. That is how it stays- maintain connectivity. Thats how we get out of this world alive- connected to God in Jesus Christ, and He will do that work if we stay connected.
"For it is God who is in you to will and work of His good pleasure".
If there is no will to work His good pleasure, perhaps He is not in there, or never was, or the connection has been interupted somehow.
Time to seek, time to dig.
QuoteI do not pretend to know how this works for unbelievers. It says in the Bible, that God causes the sun to shine on the good and the bad alike. I would not be surprised, if, insofar as they can receive it, God gives His grace to them, in some way, as well. God's ways are not ours. Perhaps some works are of the flesh and some of the spirit. This is something I do not completely understand, and for now, it will need to be this way.....unless one of you can give me a convincing insight into it....... :gimmefive:
Here is what I believe in a nutshell to answer your question: God gives grace to the humble but resists the proud. But even his resistance is productive and in love. I believe for those who say they are Christian but mock God (Romans 2) and also the unbeliever, the works of the flesh are themselves a punishment. For example:
Romans 1
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19 because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them.
24
Therefore God gave them over in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, so that their bodies would be dishonored among them. 25 For they exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.
26
For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is [r]unnatural, 27 and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, men with men committing indecent acts and
receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error.
28 And just as they did not see fit to acknowledge God any longer,
God gave them over to a depraved mind, to do those things which are not proper, 29 being filled with all unrighteousness, wickedness, greed, evil; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, malice; they are gossips, 30 slanderers, [v]haters of God, insolent, arrogant, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents, 31 without understanding, untrustworthy, unloving, unmerciful; 32 and although they know the ordinance of God, that those who practice such things are worthy of death, they not only do the same, but also give hearty approval to those who practice them.
I think it's pretty fitting that Paul opened the book of Romans by
establishing the problem then later describing how God he intends to solve that problem through the resurrection life of Christ internal. As Peter says, baptism saves us, not the washing of filth by water, but a clean conscious by the resurrection of Christ. We are saved by his Life.
Yes, God is kind to his enemies. In fact, he knows exactly what they need, even if it includes RESISTING the proud, he's got a reason for it, because his judgments result in a desire for Life from the dead.
:thumbsup: :HeartThrob:
Found this inspiring by Corrie Ten Boom
"I have held many things in my hands," Corrie once said, "and I have lost them all;
but whatever I have placed in God's hands, that, I still possess."
I am reminded of Jesus saying Martha's name twice and cannot help but think , He was speaking to her doubleminededness
Being in the world and of it and trying to be pleasing to God with all her working and discontent ..
and Jesus told her , about Mary who sits at Jesus feet to learn of Him and what she has no man can steal or rob from her ...
Luke 10 41But the Lord answered and said to her, "Martha, Martha, you are worried and bothered about so many things;
42but only one thing is necessary, for Mary has chosen the good part, which shall not be taken away from her."
the nessesary thing was to listen to the Lords Voice and be healed !!!!!
Being in CHRIST one mind,, one body ,,one spirit ,,,one LORD OF ALL and savior of all mankind ....
I think God saved Saul, the foremost of sinners according to him, who didn't seem to deserve it because he was killing believers, but then Saul, later known as Paul, became the apostle to the nations not to save himself but as a result of his salvation. I think God chose certain people to be in the body of Christ way back before we even existed, even before the creation of mankind. (Ephesians 1:4) You can talk about salvation all kinds of ways and being saved from different things, but I think the whole purpose of the law was to demonstrate that man can't save himself. That's why Christ fulfilled the law. Everything comes from the Father to us through Christ including salvation from sin and death and the coming indignation. God creates evil and subjects us to it to humbles us, and God saves us from evil. We're saved in grace, through faith, and we can't help but produce good works that are the result of our salvation because God's love is so powerful that we're compelled to do so out of love not to try to save ourselves through works. Of course it should be evident to all that our life has changed, and yes it is possible to profess faith falsely. I think there are many people who go to church maybe every Sunday who do it out of habit or because they think they're expected to, but they don't act like they love their brothers and sisters. We shouldn't condemn them though because only God knows their hearts. I think it's great that folks do good works for their fellow human beings, and I think those of us in the body of Christ will be requited for works with the foundation of Jesus Christ at the dais where we'll be "saved" as through fire when our unworthy works are burned up. But ultimately I believe God is the savior of all mankind, especially of believers, not because we're more worthy due to our works, but simply because we've been chosen to receive the grace of God for eonian life in the celestial realm. I know God loves unbelievers though, and they're only unbelievers because they haven't been given faith by God. That's why God will eventually even save the unjust from death at the consummation of the eons when God will be all in all.
I doubt anyone can look at my words honestly and come to the conclusion that I think we can save ourselves.
I agree with that Seth :)
Yes Seth, I do to understand your point ...
I know we are to be diligent and
sober minded
7casting all your anxiety on Him, because He cares for you. 8Be of sober spirit, be on the alert. Your adversary, the devil, prowls around like a roaring lion, seeking someone to devour. 9 But resist him, firm in your faith, knowing that the same experiences of suffering are being accomplished by your brethren who are in the world.
Our work is in pleasing Him .... in my most humble opinion brother
re; post number 64..agree with..especially your pointing out the adversary...accusor of the brethern intercepting.
I also don't think anyone that agreed with the original post can be accused..of being arrogant against
the natural branches.
many of us have come out of churches[and many still coming out] where we have been beat about the head
with some of the scriptures regarding works and the lack of dividing the scriptures rightly in it. Very new
buds of faith can be snuffed out. Lot's of churches have doctrines of men that legalisticly 'outline' such works
that they approve..to be approved.. ex jw's 5 meeting a week,personal family bible study 1 hour a week...
field service[knock on doors in community] at least 2 1/2 hours a week....and you are judged by them if you
are in good standing with GOD by these criteria.
food at the appointed time...feed my sheep..but if ever you beat them..the Master will return at a time when you think
not.
many of us have been in the faith for years and years before those scriptures were rightly divided for us
and didn't have the ring of the accusor accussing us night and day with them..or have our hope in Him dashed
to the ground by men using the scriptures as a club to beat us down in Him..instead of building us up.
Sheila, here is the question of the OP
Quote from: Tony NThey believe that Christ died as a good example to follow and if they somehow do Christ's commandments, they will be saved.
What do you think about this?
I think that if they follow Christ's commandments they will be saved. So, I agree with them. I just disagree with their view of Hell. To be saved from "this wicked generation" you must follow Christ's commandments, and they are not grievous:
believe in Jesus and love your neighbor (1 John 3:23). Yes, I do believe you must follow those commandments to be saved from SIN.
Call me crazy but I think those two commandments build up rather than beat down.
well, I understand your reasoning Seth. but the problem is if 'THEY" somehow do them...we know nothing good
dwells in our flesh..but the spirit of God will do the works in us.and the salvation is always by grace not works
you can do nothing of yourselves[saved by grace] abide in me[grace]
many come in the name of Christ[somehow doing His commands/casting out demons etc..great works! so why
weren't they saved from their sin? what was their iniquity? lack of the spirit/grace[love]
so even great works like casting out demons..or any other works..get's you nowhere..without the Love of God and
love your brother as yourself.
so taking pleasure in iniquity[ lie of hell ET for your fellow man/slander on God's name that He would do this]
they are under a delusion/confusion of Babylon spell that we were called out of.
I'm not going to speak of it much more..I know you are not legalistic or works based salvation. a gift of grace is what
we are all saved by.
iniquity-lack of righteousness OR JUSTICE..........loving our brothers as ourselves..we want to do right by them
a cheating pair of scales... works without love is a clanging cymbol Psalms 150;5 PRAISE HIM WITH THE CLASH
OF CYMBOLS,PRAISE HIM WITH RESOUNDING CYMBOLS.. works done in GOD/LOVE..........
Seth, I agree, the Commandments of Christ to love God and others as He loved us, are, in my opinion, not given their fair weight and are all-important.
My personal belief according to what I belief to be the instruction of the Holy Spirit, is that when we are judged, the Commandment to love others will be a judge of ourselves - we will see our whole time allotted to us and how we spent it, we will see the suffering we caused others because we failed to help them when we were able to do so, we will see the pain we caused others because we took for ourselves more than we needed and in so doing others were denied, and so on.
For me, a very serious Commandment.
I went for a walk in the countryside today, and quite honestly, I felt Jesus Christ everywhere, inside and outside. I found myself saying His name aloud. I know I am a sinner but when I do something for others, I know it is because of His Grace which has saved me and given me back a life to live in Him and with Him in living in me.
So, because Christ is my Saviour and He gives me life, I cannot lift my arm without His power - does this mean that by doing acts for others according to His Commandment I am nullifying His life in me and my life in Him? I really do not see how a doctrine stating that I can do nothing towards my salvation because it is by Christ's Grace, has any bearing on this. Sometimes I think that the Pharisees live again with legalism suffocating the Christ at work.
I think the problem may perhaps be that some people consider these commandments of Christ to be an 'add on' to salvation, almost as if they can be ignored as long as one has accepted and performed the given criteria for salvation.
In my opinion, such as these are gravely misled. I mean to say, Jesus Christ, the Son of God, said:
" 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.' This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbour as yourself.'
All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments" [Matthew 22:37]
That is an important set of Commandments.
Peace.
Quote from: lastpostSo, because Christ is my Saviour and He gives me life, I cannot lift my arm without His power - does this mean that by doing acts for others according to His Commandment I am nullifying His life in me and my life in Him? I really do not see how a doctrine stating that I can do nothing towards my salvation because it is by Christ's Grace, has any bearing on this. Sometimes I think that the Pharisees live again with legalism suffocating the Christ at work.
To me, legalism is anything beyond the two commandments Christ gave us. To say that we can be saved without doing the commandments of Christ rings false to some folks, maybe because there's whole swathes of scriptures that seem to say otherwise.
If the statement is "we cannot be saved by
our own works" I agree.
If the statement is that "works have
nothing to do with salvation at all" I have to disagree and I don't even think that makes common sense (take pedophilia for example), and such a statement runs headlong into James 2, Romans 2, Titus 2 and 3 and so on.
We are to exhort one another to love and good works. God decides whether or not the works are done in love out of the perfect law of liberty. He then communicates with us by the spirit, testing our works by the Spirit, in the Day. This is how we grow into the image of Christ as we walk with Him, working out of the life that is within us, and the love.
"I am He that tries the reins and the hearts".
We are told not to do our good works to be seen, for instance. To not let our right hand know what our left hand is doing when giving alms. To pray in secret rather than before men. To pray simply rather than to use vain repitions or long flowery holy sounding words.
This of course does not mean that such works are unimportant to our life in Christ, or that there are no aionian consequences of whether we do them or not.
"I was thirsty and you gave me no drink"
"If you say go and be warmed and filled" but give nothing to the need, what good is that, doesnt prove that you faith is in vain?"
"Pray without ceasing"
"I will therefore that men pray every where, lifting up holy hands, without wrath and doubting."
Now someone will begin to teach that if you are not walking with your hands up, or if you dont lift your hands when you worship God will not receive it.....
Then someone somewhere else will forbid the lifting up of hands as "works" based worship.
All of it nonsense, because we cannot rightly divide the word of God until we have been rightly divided, which is my point.
He tries the reins and the hearts. We seek to do the work because we understand what is is, who it is for, and why we do it- if we do it, if we understand.
Now as to justification and the assurance of acceptance by God- this is purely by grace through faith, and if it is real, the works will follow as love and light grows within us, and if it is of gold silver and precious stone, it will produce fruit that will abide- some 30, some 60, some 100 fold.
But some also struggle with assurance because they are not properly armed against the wiles of the Father of lies.
11 Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.
12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.
13 Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.
14 Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness;
15 And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace;
16 Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked.
17 And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:
18 Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints;
19 And for me, that utterance may be given unto me, that I may open my mouth boldly, to make known the mystery of the gospel.
BRAVO!!!!!!
Yes, alot of legalism creeps in when people add commandments and try to take power. As for whether or not "just believing, God considers you righteous" I think the answer is layered. I believe initial justification occurs on the point of faith, but Apostle James talked about how faith needs to be made perfect, or complete, such as how the body without the spirit is dead.
Do I believe that "just believing God, God considers righteous" a man who believes that Christ was risen from the dead, who also continues to molest children? Nope. I don't believe God considers him righteous only because he believes that Jesus was risen from the dead. Even the demons believe that. Notice that James does not say that the demons don't really believe. He says the demons believe and they tremble. If the answer is that a person who continues to molest children after he believes shows that he doesn't really believe, I think that's six of one half a dozen of the other. Faith without works is dead being alone, because the faith has not been matured being alone. I do not believe that dead faith justifies, and I don't think Apostle James did either.
I think just believing is enough, if it is the belief in Him that makes a connection. Life will flow through the connection, works will follow naturally. But I wonder about the believing of those unto whom Jesus said, "Depart from me".
Obviously their belief was not sufficient, and Jesus measured them by their deeds.
There is no way around that. It is there all over the word.
6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
11 For there is no respect of persons with God.
Clearly there is a connection between the belief that follows Him and the one that doesnt- it is a distinction made clearly over and over again in both testaments, and especially since it is made by Jesus our Savior and Lord, I believe it must be acknowledged.
We can not do a work that will make us righteous, it is the gift of God through Christ Jesus, but if we are connected to Him, He is in us to will and to do of His pleasure- works prepared from the foundation of the world, that we should walk in them.
"If you do by the Spirit put to death the deeds of the flesh, you shall live."
"Walk in the Spirit and you will not fulfill the lusts of the flesh"
How do we do that?
As you received the Spirit(hearing with faith-Gal 3) so also walk in it.
We received Jesus by grace through faith whenHe drew us, we reached out to Him, and He received us- we can analyze it all we want to, but...
The Bible could just say.... "Love God and love everybody and you will be fine." But we are thick and we are selfish, so much more is written in order to renew our minds and keep us in the truth, and so that we understand what it means to "Love God and love everybody" and are equipped to do it. :o)
Quote from: EagleswayI think just believing is enough, if it is the belief in Him that makes a connection. Life will flow through the connection, works will follow naturally. But I wonder about the believing of those unto whom Jesus said, "Depart from me".
Obviously their belief was not sufficient, and Jesus measured them by their deeds.
The way I see it is not that belief was insufficient, but not made perfect, or complete. That's the way Apostle James said it. He said that Abraham had faith, but he also made his faith complete with works. That is why I think that Jesus says "Depart from me." I think he says that to those who believed but the faith was left to whither away and die like a body that is left without the spirit.
I didn't have that helmet of salvation until I had the salvation of All...as long as only a few were saved..I figured I didn't
stand a chance. add the legalistic works based salvation 'church' on top of that..and wala!
the greatest fear of a child is to be rejected by their parent. children will take all kinds of abuse from their parents
and still love them and cling to them.....
little children need the security of their parents/Father's love...then they can grow and blossom and bloom and bear
fruit. Lot's of times you can tell an abused child by their behaviour...they are either extremely well behaved...
or on the opposite end of the spectrum...acting out in all kinds of mis-behaviours.
Quote from: sheilathe greatest fear of a child is to be rejected by their parent. children will take all kinds of abuse from their parents and still love them and cling to them.....
Something ironic about that because the kind of child that has such fear would be comforted by God. And yet, I don't know if you recall, God describes a certain kind of his children that have no fear of him at all, no concern about what they do in this world, who take pleasure in iniquity with great pride and seek to convert as many as they can to their way. So, those who do fear God shouldn't, and those who don't fear God probably should.
EW I think it was the same ones John the Baptist said..'ye offspring of vipers! who showed you.....therefore produce fruit
in keeping with repentance.{Parisee;s/Sadducees] the religious leaders who heaped up heavy loads under the
law impossible to bear..but were not willing to lift their little finger to lighten the load. the ones of whom He said..
'do all that they say..but don't do as they do..for they say and do not" they didn't do what they told the people to do
but they had no problem condemning/judging the people with iniquity[cheating scales]
not many of you should be teachers
:thumbsup: Seth! and because of this.....Comfort ye,comfort ye my people, Speak tenderly to Jerusalem
tell them their hard service is over.
Isaaih 40;1 that her sin has been paid for....a voice of one calling in the desrt
EW more scriptures. Matthew 12...and if I drive out demons by Beezebub..by whom do your people drive them out?
and this...those who deny me before men..I shall deny before the angels[harvest workers/seperation]
also this Lord was title for God...and he who has the Father has the son. and Jesus Christ come in the name of the Father
and reveals the Father to us. and if you do not know Jesus Christ..you do not know the Lord.
and those that deny Jesus before men..He deny's before the angels....
that being said...the offspring of vipers in the seat of Moses[law covenant] were in the bodies of the religious leaders
in that day...iniquity in them..condemned an innocent man. try the spirit's..for he who denies that the word
of God come in flesh.....and the charge of blasphemy for saying He was the son of God,
just a quick little note i was thinking of last night, and i see others have addressed as well.
We've been talking about believing in Jesus, the devils believe, etc., whether just believing is enough.
I believe the difference is mental assent or acknowledgment, vs. the miracle of being drawn by the Holy Spirit (personally invited) and being given the faith of Jesus to trust Him as the SAvior. As John said, and others have indicated, having a true EXPERIENCE that is saving, direct, personal. Faith that makes a difference! Faith - His faith - that works. In us. EW/John said " salvation is by grace through faith. IT IS AN INTRODUCTION INTO A RELATIONSHIP." I believe many people (and the devils) will say yes, Jesus died and rose again. Even "we've done miracles in His name". But they've not been given the divine appointment to have saving faith. They've yet to be invited and enabled by the Holy Spirit (we can't do it ourselves) "No man comes to the Father except the Holy Spirit DRAW him).
The scripture says but to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God. We simply cannot do that without the Holy Spirit guiding it, making it so, when it's each person's time. Until then, there can either be total disbelief of the atheist or of some other religion, or maybe some kind of mental acknowledgment about Jesus, running the spectrum in between. But until the Holy Spirit enables the receiving of Christ (the personal, individual becoming a new creation, passing from death to life, being made a child of God instead of a child of the devil ONLY by the new birth from the FREE GIFT of grace, we're still dead in our trespasses and sins. That's at least what I'm meaning when I talk of belief/being saved. :2c:
Then of course I believe there are continuing works of salvation (healing), growing, maturing, overcoming and being delivered from sin, ending in what Paul says, "to wit, the redemption of our body [immortality]".
:2thumbs: :dsunny:
Beautiful, John. I agree
good, thank you. praise God. :HeartThrob:
Quote from: sheila on June 07, 2015, 05:10:11 AM
EW I think it was the same ones John the Baptist said..'ye offspring of vipers! who showed you.....therefore produce fruit
in keeping with repentance.{Parisee;s/Sadducees] the religious leaders who heaped up heavy loads under the
law impossible to bear..but were not willing to lift their little finger to lighten the load. the ones of whom He said..
'do all that they say..but don't do as they do..for they say and do not" they didn't do what they told the people to do
but they had no problem condemning/judging the people with iniquity[cheating scales]
not many of you should be teachers
Right, exactly. And everyone one of them would have said they 'believe' in the tenets of the faith delivered by Moses. I think we have some Pharisees like that today, in Christian religion, where they believe the right facts(do as they say) but did not have the right heart(do not do as they do)....
"Therefore bring forth fruit in keeping with repentance".
Interesting He says "Bring forth"
The scribe in the kingdom of God
brings forth treasures new and old"
No one can bring forth other than what God has given them. But the place where we as James said, "Draw nigh unto God and He will draw nigh unto you" is, I think, repentance. There we go back t, "To him who has more shall be given, to him who has not even what he has shall be taken" Speaking(I think) of a humble seeking heart.
A humble seeking heart may be in bondage- He came to set captives free and heal broken hearts and open blind eyes- a righteous man falls 7 times but the Lord raises him up.
Lord have mercy on me a sinner- accepted
Lord I am so glad I am not like that guy, I do all the right stuff- rejected
It is a crooked road only Jesus can make straight, a high place only he can level, a valley only he can raise.
Excuse me but I still don't understand the difference. How does one know that he or she is saved? Even religious and atheist can show good fruit and it can't merely be what we believe because everyone believe in something differently. I don't think it is right to say well if you don't believe in everything that I believe then you are not a Christian.
"If ever you should be avowing with your mouth the declaration that Jesus is Lord, and should be believing in your heart that God rouses Him from among the dead, you shall be saved." (Romans 10:9)
http://concordant.org/expohtml/TheEvangel/BelievingAndUnderstanding.html
Quote from: Aerex on June 07, 2015, 03:49:54 PM
Excuse me but I still don't understand the difference. How does one know that he or she is saved? Even religious and atheist can show good fruit and it can't merely be what we believe because everyone believe in something differently. I don't think it is right to say well if you don't believe in everything that I believe then you are not a Christian.
Its right there in the verse Tom posted. Believing in your heart. :o)
But it isnt so much about what we believe(details), its who we believe in. Jesus, Lord and Savior, knowing Him and being connected to Him.
Ok so ETers believe in their heart that Jesus is Lord and God raised h from the dead but we all know that hell is a lie. Are they saved even though they believe in a lie?
Being saved, is knowing Christ. We all stumble in many ways. We grow in salvation through our interaction with this Christ we know, and while what we believe has an effect on shaping what we know of Him, knowing Him is the core issue of "being saved", which is being connected to Him, which comes by believing in Him.
Looking at believing in a relational way, rather than in a mental way is the core issue I think.
If we say we believe but do not respond to His teaching, one could question if that is true belief, but many have been bound in religious confusion by the systems of world religianity. As Jesus said to the Pharisees,
"You have the keys but you will not enter and you refuse to let others enter"- this is the work of most organizational church leaders in the world today- to preserve their organization and personal standing in it- at the cost of serving their flock by seeking the truth.
I believe their judgment for that will be severe, but only God knows which of them is a believer building wood hay and stubble and which of them are wolves in sheeps clothing.
So if being saved is about a relationship with Jesus Christ through the Father, being confused about a doctrine about which the "churches" have pounded into people for 1500 years is not something that completely prohits a relationship with Jesus.
One may still see Him. His love. His sacrifice. His power and glory. His resurrection and ascension.
This whole "saved or not" theology is out of an ET paradigm constructed to intimidate people into submission to church doctrines and authority. in particular Catholicism, but also the early Protestants- such as Calvin, Luther, Knox- men who tortured and killed people for disagreeing with them. IMO they were simply ideologues and religionists.
The word saved simply means healed and delivered.
"Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you shall be saved"
"Be believing on the Lord Jesus Christ and you shall be healed and delivered" would be a better translation, imo.
Hi Aerex ,
Yes, a process. I was set ablaze in more ways than one when the Spirit taught me about the Love of God through the Love of Jesus Christ - this was by the Spirit, not the Bible.
One way was by the flame that was set alight with my astonishment, awe, reverence and, yes, loves for the Wisdom and Divine Love of a God who was so sensitive and caring. I have found one cannot honestly learn of the Saviour as He is, and not be drawn to Him.
Another way I was set alight was by the flame which always burnt painfully when I found myself betraying my higher Self, the Christ Part - (He is all-Purity)
It is probably the same flame. I do not say of myself: "I am saved" as it is too closely aligned with the Christianity which I feel separates itself from the humanity Jesus came to save. I know that I am a sinner - and for recognition of that I am truly grateful, it is because of Jesus Christ.
Anyway, may I pass on something which I discovered which you can of course ignore. The Bible is full of Spirit Power, so when a person reads it or hears it, the spirit within responds to it.
There are many different characters in this world and they do not all think alike.
When a person studies the Bible, they find the reflex of their own mind in it, and it becomes "right" for them and they experience Spirit Power which convinces them. You may notice that a person can change their belief, this is because they have changed.
May I suggest that you keep the highest ideal of Divine Love in your heart and mind, and God willing, you may find Jesus Christ and avoid the many teachings of men.
Peace and Progress.
Yes, salvation means to be delivered, to be healed. How did the Jews know they were delivered from Egypt? If you cut your heel on a pop top, how do you know if it is healed? Peter said to recieve the Spirit and be saved, healed, delivered from this wicked generation. So how do you know if you have been delivered, or healed?
2 Cor 13
5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?
6 But I trust that ye shall know that we are not reprobates.
7 Now I pray to God that ye do no evil; not that we should appear approved, but that ye should do that which is honest, though we be as reprobates.
Quote from: lastpost on June 07, 2015, 06:07:04 PM
Hi Aerex ,
Yes, a process. I was set ablaze in more ways than one when the Spirit taught me about the Love of God through the Love of Jesus Christ - this was by the Spirit, not the Bible.
One way was by the flame that was set alight with my astonishment, awe, reverence and, yes, loves for the Wisdom and Divine Love of a God who was so sensitive and caring. I have found one cannot honestly learn of the Saviour as He is, and not be drawn to Him.
Another way I was set alight was by the flame which always burnt painfully when I found myself betraying my higher Self, the Christ Part - (He is all-Purity)
It is probably the same flame. I do not say of myself: "I am saved" as it is too closely aligned with the Christianity which I feel separates itself from the humanity Jesus came to save. I know that I am a sinner - and for recognition of that I am truly grateful, it is because of Jesus Christ.
Anyway, may I pass on something which I discovered which you can of course ignore. The Bible is full of Spirit Power, so when a person reads it or hears it, the spirit within responds to it.
There are many different characters in this world and they do not all think alike.
When a person studies the Bible, they find the reflex of their own mind in it, and it becomes "right" for them and they experience Spirit Power which convinces them. You may notice that a person can change their belief, this is because they have changed.
May I suggest that you keep the highest ideal of Divine Love in your heart and mind, and God willing, you may find Jesus Christ and avoid the many teachings of men.
Peace and Progress.
Amen !!!
Before I learned better, I would just stew and talk to God ,when the book was sealed , and it seemed like a different language to me .
than , I got to where I would just open the bible up randomly , and it SPOKE to my heart , just said exactly where i was at and how to deal with it , by His own standard
I felt much better and just kept trying and not giving up
I fail but JESUS NEVER FAILS !!! EVER I had to actually learn that first and experience it before , I understood it ..... as growing pains ..
and becoming a spiritual being instead of just flesh and blood ...
Quote from: Seth on June 07, 2015, 07:54:25 PM
Yes, salvation means to be delivered, to be healed. How did the Jews know they were delivered from Egypt? If you cut your heel on a pop top, how do you know if it is healed? Peter said to recieve the Spirit and be saved, healed, delivered from this wicked generation. So how do you know if you have been delivered, or healed?
2 Cor 13
5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?
6 But I trust that ye shall know that we are not reprobates.
7 Now I pray to God that ye do no evil; not that we should appear approved, but that ye should do that which is honest, though we be as reprobates.
I have considered that a part of me is reprobate Seth and yet there is a part of me that I know belongs to GOD
I thought of the 1/3 of the Revelation passage that lets me know that a remnant will be saved and the part removed , like you say the heel
will have to be regenerated by the Lord Spirit and saving grace
For me until its all very personal , and in your face type saving , its always another person another Jesus another day and another life
I believe this is truly where the churches error
saying'' they as a whole are saved'' and the world is pure evil , not knowing anyones hearts or motives and throwing the baby out with the bath water types
when you love God and everyone as yourself , you are dealing with yourself according to GODS STANDARD IN HIS WORD and measure this out as to say , would you want anyone to suffer like you have>?
Because you had to learn the hard way though a fiery trial and they could learn saving grace by the sharing and caring hearts of witnesses who just went though that battle and lost or how they got the victory though Jesus by helping them stay safe in Jesus
the WORD is full of examples and we have our own witness as well , no one comes though this life unscathed and touched by death in some sort of way
even little ones whom die at birth have experienced death already and that is for everyone born mortal
we have to learn what is mortal is corrupt by nature
and what is Spirit has that power to defy death though Jesus Christ already ...
Interesting. I know Paul says that you must examine yourself but I don't trust myself. So I am guessing there is no solid proof that you really do have a relationship. Perhaps of toy see some changes in your life I guess you have a relationship with Jesus. Maybe I don't know what a relationship with Jesus looks like because it looks differently with every person. My appogies if I sound hard headed but these are some of my thoughts that do come to mind.
Quote from: Aerex on June 07, 2015, 04:53:06 PM
Ok so ETers believe in their heart that Jesus is Lord and God raised h from the dead but we all know that hell is a lie. Are they saved even though they believe in a lie?
Bro, none of us knows everything because we're all just imperfect humans. We're blessed by the revelation of the word of God even though some poor folks haven't gotten hold of an accurate translation yet. The point is that God chose us to be saved in Christ for eonian life before the disruption of the world, before we were even here, and before we believed anything. So our salvation isn't lost if we don't understand the full scope of the evangel. I believe all my brothers and sister here on the forum are saved, but you can see that we all have different and sometimes contradictory perspectives on various things. Misunderstanding some doctrine doesn't condemn anybody.
"Nothing, consequently, is now condemnation to those in Christ Jesus. Not according to flesh are they walking, but according to spirit, for the spirit's law of life in Christ Jesus frees you from the law of sin and death." (Romans 8:1,2)
It's actually very understandable that most people misunderstand the whole story presented in scripture because the church has intentionally confused it through forgery in the translation of the ancient manuscripts because it saw that it was unsuccessful at suppressing scripture by torturing and killing people with fire just for reading scripture. The institution that supposedly represents Christianity in the world today is a counterfeit for the ecclesia that is nothing more than systematized deception, but, unfortunately, most of the world thinks it's legit.
The great thing about knowing the truth of scripture is knowing that God loves all mankind and will eventually save all mankind from sin and death even though there is a select group that has been chosen to be alive during the last two eons to minister in the celestial realm. We who have been chosen aren't perfect. We're simply justified in Christ. We still mess up in life because we're still living in our flesh infected with sin, but there's no condemnation for us. We should enjoy reading scripture to be edified and be able to defend the faith, but we forget stuff and misunderstand stuff sometimes. And most of us here still have a crazy experience with church doctrine that we have to try to forget about all the time when we're trying to understand scripture. That ain't easy especially if you were raised in the church like many of us were, but the good thing is that an accurate translation of scripture has the truth in it. So, if you just read it everyday, your mind starts to see the light, and things become more clear.
I was raised in the Roman Catholic Church which I left when I was young. I wasn't familiar with scripture until years later when I became convinced that it really is inspired. Even then I read the King James Version for many years which distorts the truth through inaccurate translation. It wasn't until I became aware of universal reconciliation and then the better translations that all the things that used to bug me that the church didn't have answers for became clear. I think the best thing you can do to help you get you head straight is read an accurate translation of scripture everyday, and pay particular attention to Paul's epistles because they teach you all about the grace of God which is important because that's the era we're living in today. Here's a link to the most accurate translation of scripture that I know of.
http://concordant.org/online/index.html
And here's a link to a page on the publisher's site with a lot of helpful information.
http://concordant.org/expohtml/index.html
Quote from: Aerex on June 07, 2015, 08:19:02 PM
Interesting. I know Paul says that you must examine yourself but I don't trust myself. So I am guessing there is no solid proof that you really do have a relationship. Perhaps of toy see some changes in your life I guess you have a relationship with Jesus. Maybe I don't know what a relationship with Jesus looks like because it looks differently with every person. My appogies if I sound hard headed but these are some of my thoughts that do come to mind.
No need to apologize at all, and you have a good point, it looks differently, even works differently with every person.
A key word is believe. It is faith, and it is "out of the ordinary, supernatural". As faith grows, out hearts become more secure in the love of God and the reconciliation that was provided for us by Jesus Christ.
But I can say this, our not being sure does not mitigate the security of His love for us. He loves you for sure, and the suffering of Jesus is the measure of that love for you- so even if you are troubled by doubt, you can rejoice in the assurance that God loves you, and Jesus died for you, individually, as well as for the whole world- and if you seek Him in time your relationship with Him will grow in your own unique experience
Quote from: Aerex on June 07, 2015, 08:19:02 PM
Interesting. I know Paul says that you must examine yourself but I don't trust myself. So I am guessing there is no solid proof that you really do have a relationship. Perhaps of toy see some changes in your life I guess you have a relationship with Jesus. Maybe I don't know what a relationship with Jesus looks like because it looks differently with every person. My appogies if I sound hard headed but these are some of my thoughts that do come to mind.
ETers tend to take salvation as this lump thing. Saved from hell or not saved from hell. That's how I was taught to view it. But I see Paul speaking differently when he talks about salvation.
"At one time we too were foolish, disobedient, deceived and enslaved by all kinds of passions and pleasures. We lived in malice and envy, being hated and hating one another." Titus 3:3
"As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient." Ephesians 2:1-2
"Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God." 1 Cor 6:9-11
Now to that last scripture, Paul defined the kingdom of God as righteousness peace and joy in the Holy Spirit. That's why we cannot inherit righteousness peace and joy when we engage in those listed things. This is why I think James talked about the completion of our faith through the works of abandoning those things.
I don't know that the concept of faith brought to completion, or maturity, is even discussed in ET theology, and James 2 is pretty much ignored as far as I ever knew. I see faith as a seed. It brings initial benefits, but like any seed, it's only of any use if it is brought into completion or maturity. What good is a seed if you plant it, but nothing grows?
Quote from: Aerex on June 07, 2015, 08:19:02 PM
Interesting. I know Paul says that you must examine yourself but I don't trust myself. So I am guessing there is no solid proof that you really do have a relationship. Perhaps of toy see some changes in your life I guess you have a relationship with Jesus. Maybe I don't know what a relationship with Jesus looks like because it looks differently with every person. My appogies if I sound hard headed but these are some of my thoughts that do come to mind.
Don't trust yourself because Satan can deceive you. Trust God.
"Trust in Yahweh with all your heart, And do not lean to your own understanding." (Proverbs 3:5)
Jesus is the word of God, the only-begotten son of God, and the image of God who represented God to the world when he walked the earth preaching love. I think the best way to know what a "relationship" with him is like is what God gives us as our first experience of unconditional love in this world, and that's a mother. God provides everything you need because "God is love." (1 John 4:8,16) We can't see God because he's invisible, and we can't see Jesus like people did when he was on earth because he's gone to be with the Father. But you can talk to God just like you do to anybody else you have a "relationship" with. That's what prayer is, not some formal memorized words written by somebody else. God's not angry with you. God is conciliated with you through Christ and wants you to be conciliated with him. When you are, there will be reconciliation. Eventually all on earth and in the heavens will experience that. It seems the only thing that is keeping you from knowing that you have a "relationship" with God is the fact that there is a one sided conversation going on between you two. So why don't you try to tell God what's on your heart? I think you'll be pleasantly surprised by the result.
I realized I didn't say exactly what I was trying to get across in my last post. I want to simplify it.
Paul lists several items in connection with salvation: "All kinds of passions and pleasures," malice, hating, envy foolisheness...
The church teaches salvation largely from the perspective of one thing: hell
So when someone says, "is an ETer still saved, even if they believe a false Gospel" my reaction is, saved from which one of those things Paul listed? Hating? Malice? Foolishness? All kinds of passions and pleasures? I can honestly say that I have been saved from some things outright. Other things I am still walking out of Egypt.
I would say, ETers are not saved from the false doctrine of hellfire, yet. They are still waiting be delivered from a false doctrine that does them great psychological and emotional harm. However, an ETer might be saved from malice, or envy or passions and pleasures.
I no longer view salvation from the lump-sum aspect I was once taught, so whenever someone asks if they are saved, my first reaction is, from what?
I agree that being saved can be thought about different ways because God is the savior of all mankind, but only believers are saved from the coming indignation. All will eventually be saved from death, but only believers are saved for eonian life. I know we have different concepts of what eonian life means though, bro. I also believe you can be saved from various things in life like addiction or obsession of any kind or maybe a disease. But I think when Christian Evangelicals ask if you're saved, they're referring to being saved for eonian life even though they're thinking eternal life, and, like you said, they're also thinking saved from what they think "hell" is. I think it's strange when somebody asks when you were saved because that could be interpreted several ways too. You could say before the disruption of the world; when cross died on the cross; when you first remember believing; or even when we get snatched away to meet Christ in the air. I don't think the so called sinner's prayer does the trick even though that's the popular method. I also think we believe because we're saved, not saved because we believe. I think our belief, or faith, is a gift from God, not something we earn by saying the sinner's prayer or by doing anything else. I think any works we do are a manifestation of our belief not a means to our salvation. I know that's not quite how you see it though.
"For in grace, through faith, are you saved, and this is not out of you; it is God's approach present, not of works, lest anyone should be boasting." (Ephesians 2:8,9)
Yes I agree, they are isolating the concept of salvation to one thing. I do believe in a coming wrath after this life but I associate it with Romans 1 wrath so to me it's different sides of the same coin, only each to his order. But that's a whole different conversation.
Basicly, I think the gospel is and should be fairly simple. Parables unfold mysteries hidden from the foundation of the world, but only to those who have eyes but to not see- essentially those who complicates things to much(like me sometimes :o) For little children( Let the little children come unto me....You must become as a little child to enter the kingdom of God), He makes known the secrets of the kingdom as needed, by His Spirit.
There is a wisdom we speak among the mature, but as far as introducing the good news to unbelievers and newborn babes it should be relatively simple.
Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you shall be saved.
"What does it mean to believe."
If you confess Jesus Christ as Lord(which includes bowing before His Lordship) and believe in your heart God raised Him from the dead you shall be saved. You will become a citizen of the kingdom of God, a child of God.
God loves everyone. God loves you. He sent Jesus to save the world.
"Save from what".
From our tendency to live for ourselves and treat others poorly, from our lusts and pride and blindness and brokeness. To be saved means to delivered from this world and to be healed and filled with love for God and man. From the emptiness and futility of this vain existence you see around you- and to be saved from death. As you follow Jesus, that healing will grow into wholeness, peace and joy and you will be a light in the darkness.
'What do I have to do?"
Talk to the Father and the Lord Jesus. Learn to walk with them. He will bring experiences, trials, lessons to teach you who He is and how you can serve Him, and your loved ones, and your neighbors. Believe in the Lord Jesus and His love for you.
"What about my sins".
God has forgiven you, and He will give you grace to overcome.
"What if I can't"
God loves you. He still forgives you. Just be honest with Him and humbly ask for deliverance and healing, and tho it may seem hopeless at times, He will help you and change you. If you ask He will give you wisdom, love and power.
"I don't understand the Bible."
Understanding will come in time, if you read, and ask Him to teach you, He will send the Holy Spirit to help you understand and grow in grace. He will send help in different forms. New friends, other believers.
"What is grace".
It is the love God gives us freely because He loves us as we are. It is the ability to become something more than we were.
_________
IMO, it is fairly easy to see if someone has connected to Jesus, and reasonably easy to know Him, and to commune with Him. That is the point. Communing with Him. It is not always easy. Sometimes very hard. But He is faithful and even if we fail,He will heal us and work with us.
I don't want to go to hell.
Jesus delivers those who believe from the judgment of the wicked, despite their failures- faith in Him is sufficient. No one will go to hell, because hell is a lie, but there will be time of correction for those who have rejected Him and persisted in evil in this life- things of which the Bible does not give all the details, but things certainly to be avoided. Trust in His love and you will need not fear judgment. Perfect love casts out all fear. The more you experience the love of God in Christ, the less you will fear anything.
Jesus will eventually heal and deliver everyone, "He said, "If I be lifted up from the earth I will draw all men unto me", but there is an easy way and a hard way. Better to follow Him than to find out the details by experience.
Jesus said, "Behold, I am making all things new", and Paul the apostle said, "Evry knee shall bow and every toungue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father."
Now, that was off the cuff. But really, I dont want to go any further than that until I know I am ministering to a believer, who wants to be a disciple. Once that is determined, the foundations of our faith can be laid, gently, with patience, in due time. Whatever we might disagree about, as far as I am concerned these are the essential things. The pure milk of the word.
Quote from: Aerex on June 07, 2015, 03:49:54 PM
Excuse me but I still don't understand the difference. How does one know that he or she is saved? Even religious and atheist can show good fruit and it can't merely be what we believe because everyone believe in something differently. I don't think it is right to say well if you don't believe in everything that I believe then you are not a Christian.
You can absolutely know you are saved if you truly believe God that Christ died for our offenses/sins, was entombed and was roused the third day (see Romans 4 near the end).
If you can tell God: "God, I don't understand all Christ's death for us entails but if You say He died for our sins, was entombed and roused the third day then I believe you!" You are now righteous, saved, justified. It does not depend upon feelings but facts, the truth and believing God concerning this. It is so simple. Don't complicate it!
If one feels they must PERFORM works of whatever in order to be saved then one can never fully know if they are saved since they would always fail to perform perfectly.
One can know if he is saved from pedophilia if he is no longer molesting children.
As Paul said, a man is a slave to whatever he submits himself.
Quote from: Seth on June 15, 2015, 09:02:06 PM
One can know if he is saved from pedophilia if he is no longer molesting children.
As Paul said, a man is a slave to whatever he submits himself.
But one would never know if they would slip back into pedophilia at any given moment if they were given to that lifestyle. So they would
always be in fear of losing their salvation. We all sin. We all fall short of God's glory on a daily basis. The answer to this dilemma is grace and faith.
Even the Corinthian boy caught having sex with his father's mother did not lose his salvation. Yes, he was severely chastened by Satan for that act but in 11 Corinthians they accepted the boy back into fellowship. But Paul had them give the boy over to Satan for the destruction of his flesh so his spirit would be saved.
We believers of the uncircumcision should never be in fear of losing our eonian salvation which is freely/gratuitously (without a cause on our part) given. Since we never earned salvation we likewise can do nothing to unearn it. Of course one can make shipwreck as to the faith as Hymenius and Alexander.
The Galatians went way off track as to the faith. Yet Paul never said they were no longer saved. He still called them brothers and "little children mine".
It is a wonderful point in one's life when they are freed from the fear of having to DO things to be saved and just BELIEVE Christ died for our sins.
Quote from: Tony NBut one would never know if they would slip back into pedophilia at any given moment if they were given to that lifestyle. So they would
always be in fear of losing their salvation. We all sin. We all fall short of God's glory on a daily basis. The answer to this dilemma is grace and faith.
Yes, the answer to not slipping back into pedophelia is grace through faith. According to Apostle Paul, grace chastens us to abandon ungodliness and pursue good works (Titus 2:11). So, that is the answer to not losing your salvation from pedophelia, not falsely assuming one is righteous before God while simultaneously hurting children.
QuoteEven the Corinthian boy caught having sex with his father's mother did not lose his salvation. Yes, he was severely chastened by Satan for that act but in 11 Corinthians they accepted the boy back into fellowship. But Paul had them give the boy over to Satan for the destruction of his flesh so his spirit would be saved.
So then he wasn't saved from Satan.
I see the difference here in what you two are talking about is 1) saved (having become a child of God through the gift of faith in Christ as Savior) and 2) delivered/experiencing healing (either instantaneously/miraculously, or over time through growth and discipline/correction. Maturity, overcoming.)
I believe one can be a child of God, truly having received Him through faith in His name (Jn. 1:12 But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God") yet still have lots of room to grow, be healed, be delivered, etc. Just because one hasn't as yet reached perfection and perfect healing and deliverance, etc., IMO doesn't mean they as yet don't know God, aren't saved, etc., as that's a free gift, when, as, and to whom God gives it.
Quote from: jabcatI see the difference here in what you two are talking about is 1) saved (having become a child of God through the gift of faith in Christ as Savior) and 2) delivered (either instantaneously/miraculously, or over time through growth and discipline/correction. Maturity, overcoming.)
I actually also see the benefit of initial belief as being a child of God. But, as far as I know, the root of "sozo" from where we get the word saved is a parallel to the word delivered. In fact, in Titus 3, Paul says that we were "saved" not through our righteous works, but by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit. I see saved and delivered as the same thing.
When people were healed from physical wounds from Jesus, they said that they were sozo (saved/delivered) from those ailments when he healed them.
I personally think the Bible is clear that there is a difference between a child that needs some gentle correction, and one that is so outrageously contrary to to the righteousness laid out in Christ's own walk, that such a one needs to be torn down and rebuilt (handed over to Satan).
If, for example, a practicing pedophile considers himself a "child of God" and that makes him feel better, while he is facing the Romans 2 wrath and indignation that he has stored built up for himself, ok, but I don't think it's going to serve him very well in that moment.
If it's a matter of being ultimately saved, that's not even a question. How you get there, that's the question.
Gentle correction? Or turned over to Satan to be eaten for lunch? Choose.
I just think we can talk circles around this - and do :winkgrin: - if we don't identify exactly what's being talked about.
Other than that, my last post is the clearest I can personally be on it, so I guess if others want to string it out or complicate it, we'll see how it goes. :bigGrin:
:HeartThrob:
The book of Romans alone is 16 chapters. There's alot of info to talk about. It's not that it's not simple, it's just there is alot to unpack and consider.
One of the things that may tend to complicate it is, I personally believe 'saved' is used in different contexts in the scriptures. The initial belief/salvation of the spirit (which is what I personally mostly use the term for) and then in other places to identify healing, deliverance, rescue, etc. For clarity and simplicity, I tend to use saved to mean coming to and knowing God, becoming His child, etc., and other terms like deliverance, overcoming, healing, etc. in other contexts. Works for me, maybe not for everyone. I just know if we're not careful it can become so cluttered then we don't even know exactly to what we're referring. :) :2c:
Quote from: jabcat on June 16, 2015, 12:39:18 AMI just know if we're not careful it can become so cluttered then we don't even know exactly to what we're referring. :) :2c:
Ain't that the truth, bro :laughing7:
Plus I believe there are two phases of healing, inward and then outward. The first is gained from the holy spirit by faith alone, while latter is when faith is made matured or comes to full completion when the outer works are changed.
I think salvation is many layered thing, not the single thing we were taught in church. But ultimately I think it reflects what Matthew says. His name shall be Jesus because he will save his people from their sin.
Quote from: jabcat on June 16, 2015, 12:39:18 AM
One of the things that may tend to complicate it is, I personally believe 'saved' is used in different contexts in the scriptures. The initial belief/salvation of the spirit (which is what I personally mostly use the term for) and then in other places to identify healing, deliverance, rescue, etc. For clarity and simplicity, I tend to use saved to mean coming to and knowing God, becoming His child, etc., and other terms like deliverance, overcoming, healing, etc. in other contexts. Works for me, maybe not for everyone. I just know if we're not careful it can become so cluttered then we don't even know exactly to what we're referring. :) :2c:
It works great for me, but the problem is, everyone uses it differently, and even determinig the context of its use in scripture is sometimes difficult.
Personally, I dislike the word all together because it has a meaning(in my opinion), so long associated with the ET paradigm that is is impossible to use it without red flags going up, especially when you are using it in the context of further salvation(ongoing sanctification, healing and deliverance, restoration, the resurrection, etc.).
If we knew what each other was thinking when using words like saved; believe; repent, etc.- a lot of issues would probably be resolved immediately.
Thought ballons anyone? :laugh:
I totally agree, I don't like the word either for that reason.
Haha, I like the word just fine. I honestly think most people recognize the meaning as becoming/being a child of God. I think that's what Gary means when he says "we at Tentmaker don't believe everyone, including those of other religions are saved at this time". Saved - know God, are a child of God through faith in Christ - a redeemed believer.
Some people certainly include "being saved from hell" as an add-on or ultimate result as part of their theology. But generally I've only seen it used in what I personally consider a confusing manner on this particular forum. :NewB1:
Maybe that's because we try to break things down more, pick things apart. Which I'm sure there's some benefit to that, but maybe sometimes it's pushed past its point of usefulness - when simplicity would work just fine.
Believe on Him. Trust. Follow. His grace sustains us, His love constrains us.
Well, I think the reason is like that in this forum is because we don't believe in hell, but we do believe in salvation so everyone has a view of what that means now that they have stepped through the veil of hellness. So it becomes necessary to pick it apart since "salvation" needs a new paradigm.
I'm sure that's part of it.
I added this to my post while you were posting;
"I think that's what Gary means when he says "we at Tentmaker don't believe everyone, including those of other religions are saved at this time". Saved - know God, are a child of God through faith in Christ - a redeemed believer."
so again, I personally believe some in this discussion (me, lol) are using it to mean becoming a child of God, being given faith to believe on His name.
whereas i believe a couple others use it as meaning that (the initial belief, passing from death to Life), but also as deliverance, healing, overcoming, etc.
so isn't the nuts and bolts question of the OP, "if we believe Jesus is the Son of God, died for our sins, and was raised from the dead, does that put us in right standing (righteous) with God"?
I'm thinking just now of the dear brother I heard say once, "I believe when we get saved we're perfect. But after that it's up to us". :bsad:
My answer is yes it does put us in right standing with God. That initial standing. If all your past sins are forgiven, how can you not be in right standing?
Now, going forward, says Paul, consider the kindness and severity of God...
yeah..
this has got me thinking. maybe there are better, clearer descriptors so we don't talk all over and around each other; but i think of the terms redeemed believer (including a babe in Christ) and then either mature believer (the kind Paul encourages us to strive to be) or carnal believer (the Corinthian kind he ripped up one side and then the other, while still calling them saints ..) :dsunny:
:dunno2: language is tricky.
yes I would agree with that. I also personally think that the understanding of inner and outward salvation helped resolve some issues for me. The inner salvation is through belief, inheriting the HS. The outer salvation is what happens next when the manifeston occurs in one's behaviors. That latter one is the kind of salvation I think James is talking about in James 2.
Quote from: jabcat on June 16, 2015, 05:43:19 AM
so again, I personally believe some in this discussion (me, lol) are using it to mean becoming a child of God, being given faith to believe on His name.
whereas i believe a couple others use it as meaning that (the initial belief, passing from death to Life), but also as deliverance, healing, overcoming, etc.
so isn't the nuts and bolts question of the OP, "if we believe Jesus is the Son of God, died for our sins, and was raised from the dead, does that put us in right standing (righteous) with God"?
I'm thinking just now of the dear brother I heard say once, "I believe when we get saved we're perfect. But after that it's up to us". :bsad:
I was saved the instant I saw, in my heart, soul and mind- Christ crucified for me. Cried like a baby. Was a mess for a long time after that, but i was a saved mess. (Some folks would say i still am HAHAHAHAH).
Isaiah 45:22 "Turn to Me and be saved, all the ends of the earth; For I am God, and there is no other." :banana:
Matthew 10:22 You will be hated by all because of My name, but it is the one who has endured to the end who will be saved. :dontknow:
Luke 7:50 And He said to the woman, "Your faith has saved you; go in peace." Argh
Acts 2:40 And with many other words he solemnly testified and kept on exhorting them, saying, "Be saved from this perverse generation!" :doh:
Acts 27:31 Paul said to the centurion and to the soldiers, "Unless these men remain in the ship, you yourselves cannot be saved."
Now I know what we've all been missing........... the boat. :laughing7:
Romans 8:24 For in hope we have been saved, but hope that is seen is not hope; for who hopes for what he already sees? :Pray:
1 Corinthians 1:18 For the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. :dsunny:
Quote from: eaglesway on June 16, 2015, 06:43:02 AM
Quote from: jabcat on June 16, 2015, 05:43:19 AM
so again, I personally believe some in this discussion (me, lol) are using it to mean becoming a child of God, being given faith to believe on His name.
whereas i believe a couple others use it as meaning that (the initial belief, passing from death to Life), but also as deliverance, healing, overcoming, etc.
so isn't the nuts and bolts question of the OP, "if we believe Jesus is the Son of God, died for our sins, and was raised from the dead, does that put us in right standing (righteous) with God"?
I'm thinking just now of the dear brother I heard say once, "I believe when we get saved we're perfect. But after that it's up to us". :bsad:
I was saved the instant I saw, in my heart, soul and mind- Christ crucified for me. Cried like a baby. Was a mess for a long time after that, but i was a saved mess. (Some folks would say i still am HAHAHAHAH).
:thumbsup: :thumbsup:
---------
all those scrips. reminds me again of context, what's surrounding it, what's the story in that particular scene.
"I'm really
living". Do I mean, I've passed from death to life through the grace of God and Christ's work on the cross? Or do I mean, I'm at an amusement park having the time of my life? (not likely). Or do I mean, I was told last week I was going to die due to a blocked carotid, but the doctor performed expert surgery with God's blessing and help so I'm not going to die this week (as far as I know)?
Just to pull out one of those scrips, asking more questions to make the point of context rather than trying to "explain" it. "He who endures to the end shall be saved". Someone asked me once, "to the end of what"? Good question. Also a good question, what does saved mean in that context? Does it mean their
physical lives saved from a specific event or set of circumstances, or something else? I know folks in the circles I grew up who use that verse to mean "hang in there for all you're worth, and when Jesus comes back, if you're living right when He comes, you'll go to heaven and not be cast into hell". Me, I don't think it means that. I don't think it's talking about salvation of the spirit at all, because again, that's a free gift given by God. He ensures that it me, drawing me back, disciplining me, giving me grace sufficient for my weaknesses. I don't have to struggle in my own efforts or goodness to keep it. So is it more about the tribulation coming upon the Jews in 70 AD perhaps? If not that, then something else along those lines? On the other hand, if it
is talking about salvation of the spirit/being a child of God, then I'd have to believe whoever endures to the end is accomplished by
Him in and through us anyway. So that He will ensure it, as He's sealed us unto that Day and He's the Author and Finisher of our faith. :) :2c:
-------------
"We've been missing the boat". :laugh: :thumbsup:
Excellent points, guys! :dsunny:
Context is of vital importance.
I really think enduring to the end means this thread(I'm on a roll tonight LOL)
No really, fitting to come full circle, in my opinion enduring to the end is about believing- "this is the victory that overcomes the world, even our faith".
Remember Job? His wife told him to curse God and die? (I wonder who had momentary control of her vocal chords, eh? Who had something to gain by THAT statement?). But Job did not curse God. He complained and presented His case but in the end he got a good look at himself and said, "My ears had heard but now my eyes have seen and I abhor myself"- he received a deeper revelation of YHWH, the I AM.
1 Petr 4:12 Beloved, do not be surprised at the fiery ordeal among you, which comes upon you for your testing, as though some strange thing were happening to you; 13but to the degree that you share the sufferings of Christ, keep on rejoicing, so that also at the revelation of His glory you may rejoice with exultation....
I was in a group that taught "sonship rights". They liked the number 5, the number of grace.
Been following this thread with mild interest, because I get it. The thing with that particular group was they really believed they were righteous and often lived like the devil.
Here are the 5:
Sonship Right #1 The believer is Redeemed. Bought back to the Father by the price of blood.
Sonship Right #2 The believer is Justified. Being cleansed of sin by the blood just as if the believer has done no wrong
Sonship Right #3 The believer is Sanctified. To make holy, purify or consecrated for the Fathers business.
Sonship Right #4 The believer is made righteous. Made right by the righteousness of Jesus Christ.
Sonship Right #5 The believer has been given the Ministry of Reconciliation, to speak the Word of God so that others may hear and believe and be reconciled/made right before God.
With link:
http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread766779/pg1
The sonship rights applied when in fellowship.
For me, righteousness is important mixed with asking for forgiveness, which brings us back into fellowship and the righteous place in Christ Jesus.
When we sin willfully there is a fearful looking for judgement involved.
What does being righteous in Christ accomplish for us? For me, it helps in my realization of the what Christ accomplished for me, that I could not accomplish on my own. There is a resting place in His righteousness that is transferred to us, so that we can over come guilt of the past, and present. We humbly claim His righteousness in our times of turmoil. The past that is important is the accomplished work of Jesus Christ for our sake. His work cleanses us from all unrighteousness. It really is a glorious thing to hold in faith, it is part of our armor and shield..........
"Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked."
Quote from: jabcat on June 16, 2015, 07:34:19 AM
all those scrips. reminds me again of context, what's surrounding it, what's the story in that particular scene.
"I'm really living". Do I mean, I've passed from death to life through the grace of God and Christ's work on the cross? Or do I mean, I'm at an amusement park having the time of my life? (not likely). Or do I mean, I was told last week I was going to die due to a blocked carotid, but the doctor performed expert surgery with God's blessing and help so I'm not going to die this week (as far as I know)?
Just to pull out one of those scrips, asking more questions to make the point of context rather than trying to "explain" it. "He who endures to the end shall be saved". Someone asked me once, "to the end of what"? Good question. Also a good question, what does saved mean in that context? Does it mean their physical lives saved from a specific event or set of circumstances, or something else? I know folks in the circles I grew up who use that verse to mean "hang in there for all you're worth, and when Jesus comes back, if you're living right when He comes, you'll go to heaven and not be cast into hell". Me, I don't think it means that. I don't think it's talking about salvation of the spirit at all, because again, that's a free gift given by God. He ensures that it me, drawing me back, disciplining me, giving me grace sufficient for my weaknesses. I don't have to struggle in my own efforts or goodness to keep it. So is it more about the tribulation coming upon the Jews in 70 AD perhaps? If not that, then something else along those lines? On the other hand, if it is talking about salvation of the spirit/being a child of God, then I'd have to believe whoever endures to the end is accomplished by Him in and through us anyway. So that He will ensure it, as He's sealed us unto that Day and He's the Author and Finisher of our faith. :) :2c:
-------------
"We've been missing the boat". :laugh: :thumbsup:
:goodpost:
I agree. Saved needs a context and application. We can apply the verses incorrectly, But we always have the spirit to help us even though we apply them incorrectly. That is what I love about really believing that "God is with us" in every moment of time...............he does not leave us even though we wrongly apply scripture, probably often.
Quote from: jabcat on June 16, 2015, 12:12:24 AM
I see the difference here in what you two are talking about is 1) saved (having become a child of God through the gift of faith in Christ as Savior) and 2) delivered/experiencing healing (either instantaneously/miraculously, or over time through growth and discipline/correction. Maturity, overcoming.)
I believe one can be a child of God, truly having received Him through faith in His name (Jn. 1:12 But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God") yet still have lots of room to grow, be healed, be delivered, etc. Just because one hasn't as yet reached perfection and perfect healing and deliverance, etc., IMO doesn't mean they as yet don't know God, aren't saved, etc., as that's a free gift, when, as, and to whom God gives it.
That's right. If we had to be perfect in this life to be saved then why does God go through all the trouble of "dealing graciously with ALL our offenses"?
Also, we all make a big deal out of studying the Hebrew meaning of things. That's why many of us began to change from ET. What about the Hebrew understanding of faith? Where does that fit into our UR understanding?
http://www.ancient-hebrew.org/27_faith.html
http://www.egrc.net/articles/Rock/HebrewWords/emunah.html
I believe that Paul was contrasting faith with works of the Law, his topic of discussion in Romans 4 being physical circumcision. I don't think he meant to contrast belief with obedience itself. I think he saw them as naturally co-existing. The Spirit-led believers are no longer under the Law, which is his point at the end of Romans 2 and Galatians 5. That's why I believe Paul said that Abraham is the father of those who WALK in steps of faith.
Quote from: Seth on June 16, 2015, 07:12:59 PM
I believe that Paul was contrasting faith with works of the Law, his topic of discussion in Romans 4 being physical circumcision. I don't think he meant to contrast belief with obedience itself. I think he saw them as naturally co-existing. The Spirit-led believers are no longer under the Law, which is his point at the end of Romans 2 and Galatians 5. That's why I believe Paul said that Abraham is the father of those who WALK in steps of faith.
Hi Seth,
It is possible I misunderstand what you are getting at.
This is what I found from Paul:
Rom 4:12 and the father of the Circumcision, not to those of the Circumcision only, but to those also
who are observing the elements of the faith in the
footprints of our father Abraham, in uncircumcision."
What were the footprints of Abraham in uncircumcision? If we follow his footprints we see he believed God and did nothing,
as it pertains to the flesh, to be made righteous. Faith is the footprints of Abraham. It is only after he was circumcised that God
told Abraham to DO certain things. But he was still righteous if he failed in his attempts at obeying God since God declared him righteous.
What are the elements of the faith Paul tells the nations? It is that believing God that Christ died for our sins, was entombed
and roused again the third day that that one is righteous. It is not mixing works with grace to be righteous. Those who are
righteous should be concerned with loving their neighbor as themselves and loving and caring for those in the ecclesia.
Quote from: Tony N on June 18, 2015, 05:45:03 PM
Quote from: Seth on June 16, 2015, 07:12:59 PM
I believe that Paul was contrasting faith with works of the Law, his topic of discussion in Romans 4 being physical circumcision. I don't think he meant to contrast belief with obedience itself. I think he saw them as naturally co-existing. The Spirit-led believers are no longer under the Law, which is his point at the end of Romans 2 and Galatians 5. That's why I believe Paul said that Abraham is the father of those who WALK in steps of faith.
Hi Seth,
It is possible I misunderstand what you are getting at.
This is what I found from Paul:
Rom 4:12 and the father of the Circumcision, not to those of the Circumcision only, but to those also
who are observing the elements of the faith in the footprints of our father Abraham, in uncircumcision."
What were the footprints of Abraham in uncircumcision? If we follow his footprints we see he believed God and did nothing,
as it pertains to the flesh, to be made righteous. Faith is the footprints of Abraham. It is only after he was circumcised that God
told Abraham to DO certain things. But he was still righteous if he failed in his attempts at obeying God since God declared him righteous.
What are the elements of the faith Paul tells the nations? It is that believing God that Christ died for our sins, was entombed
and roused again the third day that that one is righteous. It is not mixing works with grace to be righteous. Those who are
righteous should be concerned with loving their neighbor as themselves and loving and caring for those in the ecclesia.
"It is that believing God that Christ died for our sins, was entombed and roused again the third day that that one is righteous. It is not mixing works with grace to be righteous.
Those who are righteous should be concerned with loving their neighbor as themselves and loving and caring for those in the ecclesia." So you are not calling that works- but Paul called them
works prepared from the foundation of the world that we should walk in them, so there is perhaps some crossways terminolgy going on here.
IMO, it is kind of a fine line we are talking about, and worth the continuing conversation, to make it not so fine.
We are not saved by works. If we are saved there will be works, but not of law..... of love through trust.
What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, attained righteousness, even the righteousness which is by faith; 31but Israel, pursuing a law of righteousness, did not arrive at that law. 32
Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as though it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone,33just as it is written,
"BEHOLD, I LAY IN ZION A STONE OF STUMBLING AND A ROCK OF OFFENSE,
AND HE WHO BELIEVES(trusts) IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED."
Abraham was justified by faith and received a promise, yet God refers to his works continually, but it was not works of law it was the obedience of faith, which involves trust.
The works of the law says, "He that keeps them must live by them" and "He that breaks the law in one part has broken all the law".
The obedience of faith says, "I believe and trust and love, therefore I will obey'- but the obedience, and t
he ability to carry it through is in itself the result of the promise, opened up through belief, a seed of faith planted in the heart that will spring up in works.
But works of love, not of law. Abraham was the friend of God. Jesus said, "I have called you friends".
"Lord, Lord, Didnt we prophesy and cast out demons in your name?".........I was hungry and you fed me not.....Depart from me" It is possible to pursue Christian faith in the same stumbling as Israel, pursuing our own righteousness, stumbling over the stumbling block. It is also possible to hold our faith in vain, having no works of love proceeding from it.
"A new command I give you. Love one another". Our faith is the faith of Abraham,
the friend of God. There is a desire to please God within this faith, because it is "Christ in you", and love flows through that opening, because faith works by love.
Ro 1:5 Jesus Christ our Lord, through whom we have received grace and apostleship to bring about
the obedience of faith among all the Gentiles for His name's sake, among whom you also are the called of Jesus Christ;
Ro 16:25 Now to Him who is able to establish you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery which has been kept secret for long ages past, 26but now is manifested, and by the Scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the eternal God, has been made known to all the nations,
leading to obedience of faith;
Gal 5:6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision has any value.
For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything, but FAITH WORKING THROUGH LOVE.So the faith that we have received reveals itself through love, as in the two great commandments, by "Christ in you", who enters by belief.
Heb 11:8
By faith Abraham, when called to go to a place he would later receive as his inheritance,
obeyed and went, even though he did not know where he was going. By faith he made his home in the promised land like a stranger in a foreign country; he lived in tents, as did Isaac and Jacob, who were heirs with him of the same promise.
But why did he obey and go? Not because of a command, but because he trusted YHWH as friend, believed Him to be faithful.
Faith is not mere mental assent. Faith is not a new opinion of our ability. It is a high opinion of God's good pleasure towards us working through us by love, and trusting in it.
Simply put, we disobey what we don't believe, we obey what we do believe.
Believing Christ crucified(and raised) is the cure- when they looked at the snake on the stick they were cured. When we see Christ crucified we are cured. We are cured by receiving Him within us, "I live yet not I, but Christ lives in me". He begins doing the works, having planted love within us by faith. "It is God who is in you to will and to do of His good pleasure".
Gen 22:4 I will multiply your descendants as the stars of heaven, and will give your descendants all these lands; and by your descendants all the nations of the earth shall be blessed;
because Abraham obeyed Me and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes and My lawsSomeone might read the above verse and conclude Abraham kept the law, and they would be right in a Romans 2 kinda way, because not having the law contained in ordinances, Abraham was a law unto himself and pleased God. His conduct flowed from his faith which flowed from his trust relationship with YHWH.
Gen 23:16 and said, "By Myself I have sworn, declares the LORD,
because you have done this thing and have not withheld your son, your only son, indeed I will greatly bless you, and I will greatly multiply your seed as the stars of the heavens and as the sand which is on the seashore; and your seed shall possess the gate of their enemies. "In your seed all the nations of the earth shall be blessed, because
you have obeyed My voice."
How did Abraham obey His voice? In loving God and caring for the ecclesia(Lot, Sarah, isaac). Works of "faith expressing itself through love".
"Today, if you hear his voice,
do not harden your hearts
as you did in the rebellion."
16Who were they who heard and rebelled? Were they not all those Moses led out of Egypt? And with whom was he angry for forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose bodies perished in the wilderness? And to whom did God swear that they would never enter his rest if not to those who disobeyed?
So we see that they were not able to enter, because of their unbelief.If you read the story it is clear their unbelief was failure to trust. They could not obey because they did not trust/believe God's intentions towards them.
Therefore, since we have a great high priest who has ascended into heaven, Jesus the Son of God,
let us hold firmly to the faith we profess. For we do not have a high priest who is unable to empathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as we are—yet he did not sin.
Let us then approach God's throne of grace with confidence, so that we may receive mercy and find grace to help us in our time of need.Heb 10:23 Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for He who promised is faithful; and
let us consider how to stimulate one another to love and good deeds, not forsaking our own assembling together, as is the habit of some, but
encouraging one another; and all the more as you see the day drawing near....
The simplest way I have come to understand it is:
If I choose to love someone in hopes of getting something in return from them, such love is of works. My motivation is on what I receive.
If I choose to love someone because I value them and am moved because of that to love them, such love is of faith. My motivation is on what I see (by faith) in them. By the way, this applies to my enemies as well.
Much talk is made of loving others, and it is a good thing. But even the action can be done in such a way that ends up being a work, just as much as anything we normally consider 'work'.
Ronen
I agree because I think true love seeks to give, to share God's love, with others. That's why our "works" are the fruit of our salvation, not the means to achieve it as some sort of compensation. God is not only the source of love, but God is love. We love our brothers and sisters because the holy spirit of God flows through us into them, and it should continue to flow through them into others not because we all expect something in return but because we're compelled by the love of God to share God's love with all whom we associate.
"For the entire law is fulfilled in one word, in this: 'You shall love your associate as yourself.'" (Galatians 5:14)
Hey eaglesway,
I don't say the below to correct you. I'm just talking out loud. . .
Here is the contextual setting of the Ephesians verse you quoted:
Ephesians 2:8-10 For in grace, through faith, are you saved, and this is not out of you;
it is God's approach present, (9) not of works, lest anyone should be boasting."
(10) For His achievement are we, being created in Christ Jesus for good works, which
God makes ready beforehand, that we should be walking in them."
Notice God brought His own approach present, His Son. Therefore salvation is not of works. If it were, we could boast
in saving ourselves. I'm glad we agree on that. :iagree:
Not only that but we are His achievement. Anything we do concerning good works is "God operating in you to will as well
as to work for the sake of His delight."
Also, it is not a law that we MUST do good works such as helping our neighbor, enemy or brother or sister in Christ. It is ideal.
It is not done to save ourselves nor is it a way to lose one's salvation should they fail in the ideal.
P.S. "obedience" in the Scriptures is "hearing." When we obey the gospel/evangel we actually hear it. We hear that Christ actually, truly did die for our sins,
was entombed and roused the third day. In actually hearing that we are obeying it by believing it. Dig?
I've heard it said, "it's not faith and works. It's faith that works."
Quote from: Tony NRom 4:12 and the father of the Circumcision, not to those of the Circumcision only, but to those also
who are observing the elements of the faith in the footprints of our father Abraham, in uncircumcision."
What were the footprints of Abraham in uncircumcision? If we follow his footprints we see he believed God and did nothing,
as it pertains to the flesh, to be made righteous. Faith is the footprints of Abraham. It is only after he was circumcised that God
told Abraham to DO certain things.
Footprints means walking. We follow in footprints because Abraham walked by faith, so we walk by faith too. You say, he did nothing "as it pertains to the flesh." Well, this is why Paul said to walk according to the Spirit. So the comparison between Abraham and us, is that Abraham did not follow a Law. But, he had what the Hebrews called "enumah" which is faithfulness. It's not simply belief alone, but a faithfulness to be obedient to God, not because of a written set of rules, but because he was a friend of God.
Again, brother, if you are going to take into consideration Sheol, and Olam and be influenced by those Hebrew concepts to believe in UR, why not take into consideration the Hebrew understanding of faith, and what it means to have faith? That would be consistent wouldn't it?
Quote from: Tony NWhat are the elements of the faith Paul tells the nations? It is that believing God that Christ died for our sins, was entombed
and roused again the third day that that one is righteous. It is not mixing works with grace to be righteous. Those who are
righteous should be concerned with loving their neighbor as themselves and loving and caring for those in the ecclesia.
According to Paul, those who fail to obey God have no kingdom inheritance, and will be judged according to their works. This is because, I believe, Paul was speaking about "enumah" when he spoke about faith and what it means to believe God, which is a steadfast faithfulness and obedience to the Lord, not belief only.
Think about this: what do you think Jesus will say to someone who has an intellectual belief in Jesus and agrees that he was raised from the dead, who goes about molesting and murdering children? Well done, my good and faithful servant? The answer to that question will lead back to what "enumah" is.
Folks are always quoting a TINY fraction of Ephesians 2 about works. But look at the context of what is says about salvation:
Ephesians 2
2 As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, 2 in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient.3 All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our flesh and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature deserving of wrath. 4 But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved.
In other words, THEY WERE SAVED FROM BEING DISOBEDIENT by being unified together with Christ (saved by his life - Romans 5:10). That is why works DO have something to do with salvation, JUST NOT OUR OWN WORKS.
Grace = made us alive together with Christ
....SO THAT....
We are formerly dead in transgressions, no longer following them, and THUS we are saved/healed/delivered:
Titus 3
3 At one time we too were foolish, disobedient, deceived and enslaved by all kinds of passions and pleasures. We lived in malice and envy, being hated and hating one another. 4 But when the kindness and love of God our Savior appeared, 5 he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit, 6 whom he poured out on us generously through Jesus Christ our Savior
I don't see these scriptures saying that we were saved AND THEN did good works. We were saved FROM doing evil works by being unified by the Spirit with Christ (by grace ye are saved)
well.Saul/Paul went about molesting and murdering the little children..thinking he was doing God a service..no different.......
we shall all be changed...the corrupt image all men have bore..will come to it's end..and the new image in Christ shall be.
Jesus said...the night comes when no man can work...all the virgins slept...the enemy sowed the tares in the night
the separating of wheat and tares is part of the harvest work. the distinction of seed from seed shall be made..and to each
a body is given. One for the fire and one for the barn
THE NIGHT COMES AND NO MAN CAN WORK...at times such as these..it is good to rest in His works.to KNOW that if a kernel of
wheat falls to the earth and dies..it bears much fruit unto heaven.
Quote from: sheila on June 18, 2015, 09:29:45 PM
well.Saul/Paul went about molesting and murdering the little children..thinking he was doing God a service..no different.......
You are telling me that after believing in Jesus and preaching the Gospel, Paul went around molesting children? No, right? SO IT IS DIFFERENT.
no..it is not different...you break one law..your guilty of them all....in God's eyes..all were bound up in disobedience..and all shall
receive grace. I am glad I am not like this sinner over here. where sin abounds grace abounds more. this is how it must be
for ALL mankind to be redeemed..and all are redeemed/purchased by His blood. the flesh shall return to the dust and the spirit
return unto God.
do you not understand that people who do such things have been taken over by evil spirits..and are out of their mind?
....for we are many[seeds of the darkness] and that Jesus Christ shall separate in the harvest.
Quit judging by appearance..and see it with His eyes....the man/men at Gerar..one did obedience and fell at his feet...
two men/one man?...two men shall be in a bed..two women at the hand mill.
Quotedo you not understand that people who do such things have been taken over by evil spirits..and are out of their mind?
Yes, Sheila, that is my point. Paul no longer did those things because he was saved from them. Those who believe in Jesus and molest children are not saved from those things unless they STOP doing those things.
Quote from: Seth on June 18, 2015, 09:08:50 PM
According to Paul, those who fail to obey God have no kingdom inheritance,
Really? What verse is that? Paul was not saying they are saved by what they do. He was saying that people whose lives are characterized by certain failing will not be enjoying an allotment in the kingdom of God. That does not mean they "won't go to heaven." It just means they will not have a part in God's kingdom administration. He needs only so many chiefs. The rest are citizens of that kingdom. Eonian life cannot be earned and cannot be lost due to what we do or fail to do. Reigning with Christ is another matter. Those whose lives are characterized by denying the Lord, the Lord will refuse them to reign with Him. But that again is part of the kingdom administration and has nothing to do with receiving or losing eonian life which is life for the oncoming eons.
Quoteand will be judged according to their works. This is because, I believe, Paul was speaking about "enumah" when he spoke about faith and what it means to believe God, which is a steadfast faithfulness and obedience to the Lord, not belief only.
Paul never once said believers are judged according to their works.
So a person who is a paraplegic who can't do anything is hellbound even if he believes in Christ since he can't do any good works?
Paul spoke of himself as one being born prematurely. He is an example of the change that will take place in all such men.
a new name/new spirit
QuoteAccording to Paul, those who fail to obey God have no kingdom inheritance,
QuoteReally? What verse is that?
1 Cor 6
9Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, 10Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. 11And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.
Again, washed, sanctified, saved by his life, and that way "such WERE some of you"
QuotePaul never once said believers are judged according to their works.
Romans 2
5 But because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God's wrath, when his righteous judgment will be revealed. 6 God "will repay each person according to what they have done." 7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. 8 But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger.9 There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile; 10 but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. 11 For God does not show favoritism.
12 All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. 13 For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. 14 (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.)
QuoteSo a person who is a paraplegic who can't do anything is hellbound even if he believes in Christ since he can't do any good works?
Hellbound?
Who is talking about hell?We are obviously talking about a different kind of salvation if you are concerned about people being saved from being hellbound.
the seed/tree is judged according to it's fruits/works. Jesus said..'I judge no man" make the tree good or make the tree evil.....
the corrupt image all men have bore is evil..the incorrupt image all men shall bear through redemption grace/is the goodness of God
theres a law against mixing......the TOKOGAE is just that mixing...the TOL has no evil/death in it. Until men eat of the tol and
the sword of the word has rightly divided/seperated them...we are a mix......then the flaming spirit sword allows to eat of the
TOL
It's not mixing Sheila. He says those who sin WITHOUT the law, shall perish without the Law. The reason is because the works they do destroy them. He covered that in Romans 1, how that God left them to destroy themselves and each other when they followed other gods. You don't need to mix law with grace to know that a man will reap what he sows.
...and ALL have reaped corruption and death through the first Adam...so,too,shall ALL receive grace and eternal life and incorruption
through the last Adam/life/giving spirit.
we are all condemned under the law/command do not eat from the TOKOGAE through ADAM.......
the weightier matters...JUSTICE/RIGHTEOUSNESS/MERCY
there is a pair of scales perfectly balanced by God....that pertains to judgement/mercy of the whole creation.........
Quote from: sheila on June 18, 2015, 10:40:32 PM
...and ALL have reaped corruption and death through the first Adam...so,too,shall ALL receive grace and eternal life and incorruption
through the last Adam/life/giving spirit.
we are all condemned under the law/command do not eat from the TOKOGAE through ADAM.......
the weightier matters...JUSTICE/RIGHTEOUSNESS/MERCY
there is a pair of scales perfectly balanced by God....that pertains to judgement/mercy of the whole creation.........
Again, those who sin apart from the Law shall perish apart from the Law. of course we have all sinned. But salvation from everything Paul describes in Romans 1 requires not just faith but
a circumcision of the heart by the Spirit.The Spirit is our salvation from reaping bad fruit.
You can't reap bad fruit if you don't sow bad seed.
right..the new creation. so..it is not a good thing to judge men..that are not a 'finished' new creation...
you are reaping what other men sowed even now. John 4;37 Thus the saying 'One sows and another reaps is true.
I sent you to reap what you have not worked for. Other's have done the hard work and you have reaped the benefits
of their labour.
It's not about judging others. It's about having a discussion on what each of us believes the Bible says about this matter. I am discussing what I believe the Bible says, that's all.
Galatians 6
7 Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. 8 Whoever sows to please their flesh, from the flesh will reap destruction; whoever sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life. 9 Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up. 10 Therefore, as we have opportunity, let us do good to all people, especially to those who belong to the family of believers.
Compare to Romans 2.
re; you can't reap bad fruit if you don't sow bad seed
Lord,you sowed good seed in your field..from whence came the tares? He replied...'an enemy have done this in the night."
the night comes..when no man can work
God will not be mocked.
Quote from: Tony N on June 18, 2015, 08:09:57 PM
Hey eaglesway,
I don't say the below to correct you. I'm just talking out loud. . .
Here is the contextual setting of the Ephesians verse you quoted:
Ephesians 2:8-10 For in grace, through faith, are you saved, and this is not out of you;
it is God's approach present, (9) not of works, lest anyone should be boasting."
(10) For His achievement are we, being created in Christ Jesus for good works, which
God makes ready beforehand, that we should be walking in them."
Notice God brought His own approach present, His Son. Therefore salvation is not of works. If it were, we could boast
in saving ourselves. I'm glad we agree on that. :iagree:
Not only that but we are His achievement. Anything we do concerning good works is "God operating in you to will as well
as to work for the sake of His delight."
Also, it is not a law that we MUST do good works such as helping our neighbor, enemy or brother or sister in Christ. It is ideal.
It is not done to save ourselves nor is it a way to lose one's salvation should they fail in the ideal.
P.S. "obedience" in the Scriptures is "hearing." When we obey the gospel/evangel we actually hear it. We hear that Christ actually, truly did die for our sins,
was entombed and roused the third day. In actually hearing that we are obeying it by believing it. Dig?
If we have "heard" a change is made in the heart. If there is no change, we didnt hear. "having ears they hear not and having eyes they see not."
But I do believe repentence is not something we "do". It is something that happens to us when we "see" Christ crucified. After it happens to us, we begin to do, for Christ is in us, to will and to do of God's good pleasure.
Also, there is a fine line to be made thicker as far as dicipleship and believing are concerned. Jesus told the rich young ruler to "do" something. The young man walked away sorrowfully. I am not sure he believed. He certainly did not receive the word with joy, bt I think many of us(generic) fall into that same boat. The Lord is asking us to lay something down. We walk away sorrowfully. We are believers learning to be disciples I guess :o)
Quote from: Tony N on June 18, 2015, 09:51:22 PM
Quote from: Seth on June 18, 2015, 09:08:50 PM
According to Paul, those who fail to obey God have no kingdom inheritance,
Really? What verse is that? Paul was not saying they are saved by what they do. He was saying that people whose lives are characterized by certain failing will not be enjoying an allotment in the kingdom of God. That does not mean they "won't go to heaven." It just means they will not have a part in God's kingdom administration. He needs only so many chiefs. The rest are citizens of that kingdom. Eonian life cannot be earned and cannot be lost due to what we do or fail to do. Reigning with Christ is another matter. Those whose lives are characterized by denying the Lord, the Lord will refuse them to reign with Him. But that again is part of the kingdom administration and has nothing to do with receiving or losing eonian life which is life for the oncoming eons.
Quoteand will be judged according to their works. This is because, I believe, Paul was speaking about "enumah" when he spoke about faith and what it means to believe God, which is a steadfast faithfulness and obedience to the Lord, not belief only.
Paul never once said believers are judged according to their works.
So a person who is a paraplegic who can't do anything is hellbound even if he believes in Christ since he can't do any good works?
I just want to speak specifically to the method of argument here Tony. Works, in the context in which we speak, include, and even focus on, attitudes, love, thoughts, words. Being a parapalegic or not is a bit of a bail out and trivialization of the discussion. There is no "believing" that saves, but will not produce a change in attitude- even if that attitude is only to be frustrated or troubled by the sin one is not able to overcome, or the love one is not able to walk in. I think the language problem going on in this thread is signifigant, in that it does sound like you are postulating a foundation in which there is no judgment, and can be none, because man is totally uninvolved in both his salvation and also his sanctification. In my view man is involved in both, but not from the point of view of earning anything- but from the point of view of learning everything.
But I may still be misunderstanding you, because I realize you are committed to the teaching of grace in all things, with which I agree. I just do not think the two(grace and accountability) are mutually exclusive, since the scriptures teach both- and I do think there is an accountabilty for decisions we make- but only God knows the secrets of the heart.
The one thing I can say to approve what you seem to be saying is something that I have said for a long time- if we must err, let it be towards grace.
But better not to err at all.
If nothing else we are to labor diligently to enter His rest, a paradox of sorts, which involves "ceasing from our own works" and "entering the works that were prepared from the foundation of the world that we should walk in them", which is believing.
Faith saves us, I believe, and is the first step in our personal relationship with God. I would say that trust, will lead to us becoming His disciples.
We can believe that God is God, and have faith in that statement, but it does not necessarily mean that we allow God access to our lives, to do His will.
Quick story. There is a man, on a tightrope, going across Niagra Falls. He is riding a bicycle. On the front of the bicycle is a basket.
Faith says, the man will make it across the tightrope. Trust is willing to sit in the basket, while he does so.
We give up claim to our own life, in exchange for Christ to live in us. Only when we do that, can He use us.
Galatians 2:20
I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I now live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me.
I think this quote from Paul to his dear Timothy, whom he was grooming for discipleship, speaks of allowing ourselves to be used by God, for His purpose.
2 Timothy 2:
20 In a wealthy home some utensils are made of gold and silver, and some are made of wood and clay. The expensive utensils are used for special occasions, and the cheap ones are for everyday use. 21 If you keep yourself pure, you will be a special utensil for honorable use. Your life will be clean, and you will be ready for the Master to use you for every good work.
22 Run from anything that stimulates youthful lusts. Instead, pursue righteous living, faithfulness, love, and peace. Enjoy the companionship of those who call on the Lord with pure hearts.
23 Again I say, don't get involved in foolish, ignorant arguments that only start fights. 24 A servant of the Lord must not quarrel but must be kind to everyone, be able to teach, and be patient with difficult people. 25 Gently instruct those who oppose the truth. Perhaps God will change those people's hearts, and they will learn the truth. 26 Then they will come to their senses and escape from the devil's trap. For they have been held captive by him to do whatever he wants.
Very nice for my first read of the morning Dandelion.
:dsunny:
:Peace2:
Quote from: eaglesway on June 19, 2015, 09:45:56 AM
I just want to speak specifically to the method of argument here Tony. Works, in the context in which we speak, include, and even focus on, attitudes, love, thoughts, words. Being a parapalegic or not is a bit of a bail out and trivialization of the discussion. There is no "believing" that saves, but will not produce a change in attitude- even if that attitude is only to be frustrated or troubled by the sin one is not able to overcome, or the love one is not able to walk in. I think the language problem going on in this thread is signifigant, in that it does sound like you are postulating a foundation in which there is no judgment, and can be none, because man is totally uninvolved in both his salvation and also his sanctification. In my view man is involved in both, but not from the point of view of earning anything- but from the point of view of learning everything.
But I may still be misunderstanding you, because I realize you are committed to the teaching of grace in all things, with which I agree. I just do not think the two(grace and accountability) are mutually exclusive, since the scriptures teach both- and I do think there is an accountabilty for decisions we make- but only God knows the secrets of the heart.
The one thing I can say to approve what you seem to be saying is something that I have said for a long time- if we must err, let it be towards grace.
But better not to err at all.
If nothing else we are to labor diligently to enter His rest, a paradox of sorts, which involves "ceasing from our own works" and "entering the works that were prepared from the foundation of the world that we should walk in them", which is believing.
Hi eaglesway, No, I'm not saying there is no judgment. There is judgment for the believer in this life so we are not condemned with the world (1 Cor.11:32). If we are not disciplined then are we not bastard children? But God loves those He chastens.
In Revelation it is said all will give an account. We must not read into "account" the idea of "responsibility." It is just in Greek "logos" or "word." Man will give a word as to their acts. God will straighten them out as to all the whys and wherefores of their acts. But never does the Bible say mankind is responsible. Of course we do have certain "responsibilities" if married in taking care of the family etc. But ultimately speaking, responsibility is not used in the Scriptures to declare man as being that.
But I will say this: God does not condemn anyone to "Hell" or whatever one wants to call it, for not believing the evangel/gospel. How could He? Since He is the One Who chose specific individuals to be believing before the disruption of the world, before we were ever born, we were chosen in Christ. The rest were not, not until the consummation of the eons. Then the rest come into Christ.
Many are the ideas on how to become righteous. God's wisdom makes it sooooo simple that the wisest can't see it unless given to them to see. Man feels they have to DO something to atone for their sins or whatever. God says "It's already been done." Man says "Not good enough." God says "just believe Me that Christ died for our sins, was entombed and roused the third day." Man says: "I'd rather contribute SOMETHING!" God says "No need to." Man says I'll repent, ask Jesus into my kidney, no, umm, heart, go to church 3x a week, pay tithes, mow the pastor's grass and on and on. But God would rather we just take Him at His word and in so doing we are declared righteous. One can not be more righteous than righteous by doing extra credits so to speak.
I agree Dandelion.
_But_ :o)
"Faith saves us" is something that can be read a few different ways.
What does it save us from? What does it save us for? And of course i kno you kno this but, faith only saves us when it is faith in Him, and on some level that means a revelation of "Who he is"- not just in name but in character.
So for some people, salvation is a connection, a relationship, not just an acknowledgment of belief- but a heart response of belief.... a pledge as well as a cry for help. There are differing concepts of "believing".
In Romans 10 for instance, where Paul says we must believe "in our heart" and "confess with our mouth Jesus as Lord" - He makes the comment that, with the heart one believes unto righteousness, with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. Is that a work? the confession I mean( not asking for an answer, just postulating).
Some people will call that confession a "work". As you read the one verse, you are NOT saved by believing- you are saved by confession. When we get to specific with verses and try to build an entire case on one or two verses it can get weird like,"Well, if you believe you are made righteous but you arent saved till you confess it." The spiritual mind does not 'see" or "hear" the word like that.
Paul is simply speaking of two aspects of one salvation, and in my opinion confessing Jesus as Lord includes the intent to respond to Him as such, because that is how he is subjecting the adversaries, "As once were all of you, hostile of mind and engaged in evil deeds"...."And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God."
"Every knee shall bow and every tongue confess Jesus Christ as Lord to the glory of God the Father"- but what is the signifigance of that? Yielding to His Lordship of love for God and one another is salvation and reconciliation :o)
So one person will take, "Believe in the Lord Jesus and you will be saved" and say, "Thats it, just believe" and 10 people can say "Amen" with 5 different ideas of what believe means :o)
Another will say, "He that believes and is baptized will be saved". 5 people will say amen 5 people will say "Oh No!" Of the 5 people who say "Amen" there will be three different ideas about what the verse means that they will fight to the death over. LOL
So at what point do we say, the scriptures are an unreliable source. Pick what you want to believe and go on home. Instead we say, "The scriptures are true and they mean what I say they mean" ;o)
What really is happening is this- we bring these differing concepts to the light of day to compare them in the Day. It is only if we are personally attached to our concepts in an ego born way that we are unable to resolve into the unity of faith. James 3:13-18, and Ephesians 4 explain this :o)
Therefore I, the prisoner of the Lord, implore you to walk in a manner worthy of the calling with which you have been called, 2 with all humility and gentleness, with patience, showing tolerance for one another in love, 3 being diligent to preserve the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. 4 There is one body and one Spirit, just as also you were called in one hope of your calling; 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6 one God and Father of all who is over all and through all and in all.
Christians debate the 4th verse without considering the first thru 3rd, but Paul was offering the 4rth verse in support of the first three- not as a legalistic standard to judge every other utterance. Without context scriptures lose "INTENT", which is a big part of meaning.
The truth is, either all the scripures are true and we have the general context and perspective awry, or they are not true and integral and we ought to just fold up our tents and go home.
But IMO, all of the verses in the Bible are true when viewed in the greater context of the scriptures- God's love and ultimate reconciliation of all.
Within that context there is no need to be freaking out over fine lines of definition-
God didnt make man for the Sabbath, He made the Sabbath for man. The Sabbath is that believers rest we have entered once we have trusted Jesus Christ with our souls.
I think it is clear from the general context of all the verses that speak about salvation, that repentence is a part of "believing unto salvation" and to me repentence is simply turning to God with intent to follow the Christ I am "believing" and "confessing".
Confessing Him as Lord with no intent of responding to Him as Lord, is of no consequence.
Among the things we are "saved" from, one of the primary things is the old nature, so people who get connected to Jesus will change in some signifigant ways.
Jesus explained all these thing Himself, and then Paul followed with many words. Some people will call that salvation by works. I would call it salvation accomanied by works..... as Jesus said, "Bring forth fruit fitting for repentence."
"If any man be in Christ Jesus he is a new creature, old things pass away, Behold all things become new".
I would call that a good definition of salvation.
....and he said to him'why are you standing here doing nothing all day" and he replied..'no one has hired me" the one hour worker
of the vineyard" now the full day workers were offended..that he received the same wage.
can I not do what I wish with my own possessions..or..are your hearts wicked.
one hour workers equal to all day workers.....
there's a free gift and there's a wage.
the free gift of eternal life is for all..............the wage is a reward...well done..enter into the joy of your Lord
a labour of love never fails......and rejoices with the Lord over the salvation of all men
Quote from: sheila on June 19, 2015, 07:43:05 PM
....and he said to him'why are you standing here doing nothing all day" and he replied..'no one has hired me" the one hour worker
of the vineyard" now the full day workers were offended..that he received the same wage.
can I not do what I wish with my own possessions..or..are your hearts wicked.
one hour workers equal to all day workers.....
there's a free gift and there's a wage.
the free gift of eternal life is for all..............the wage is a reward...well done..enter into the joy of your Lord
a labour of love never fails......and rejoices with the Lord over the salvation of all men
...and doesn't that parable imply that all will be saved...?
sure it does. the vineyard is the gospel of the salvation of all. the workers are the ones called to be fellow workers/ministers of
those who are to inherit the kingdom[all].....the wine shall be put in new wineskins[new creatures raised up in Christ's image]
the Best Wine saved for last.
Quote from: sheila on June 19, 2015, 07:43:05 PM
....and he said to him'why are you standing here doing nothing all day" and he replied..'no one has hired me" the one hour worker
of the vineyard" now the full day workers were offended..that he received the same wage.
can I not do what I wish with my own possessions..or..are your hearts wicked.
one hour workers equal to all day workers.....
there's a free gift and there's a wage.
the free gift of eternal life is for all..............the wage is a reward...well done..enter into the joy of your Lord
a labour of love never fails......and rejoices with the Lord over the salvation of all men
But what of those of the nations who do no work and are still saved?
a free gift is free..you do no work for it. Gifts of mercy/grace. wages/reward is another matter..for those called to service in the
ministry now.
Quote from: Tony NBut I will say this: God does not condemn anyone to "Hell" or whatever one wants to call it, for not believing the evangel/gospel.
I think this is probably one of the reasons we have a disagreement about this matter. I think we are coming from a different perspective of salvation. You've mentioned hell in two different posts in this conversation, but I have made it clea that I do not believe in hell and have a totally different way of understanding what salvation is from than anything to do with hell.
I believe that for someone to be saved from alcholism, eventually the man will need to stop drinking. That has nothing to do with hell. Jesus came to save us from SIN.
And I believe he uses 100% grace to do that. In Titus 2:11-12 Paul says that God's grace chastens us to abandon ungodliness. I'm not making that up. You can look it up if you like.
It has nothing to do with hell. Nothing to do with hell. I am talking abou salvation (sozo - healing, deliverance) from sin.
You can tell me that a man is saved from alcoholism from faith alone, but I believe that defies common sense. The abandoning of sin eventually requires action. Choosing NOT to do something is as much a work as choosing to do something. If the paraplegic is addicted to porn and faith causes the Spirit to come upon the person and free them from addiction, then choosing NOT to watch porn is a form of salvation that has occurred when faith meets works.
If love is work, then no one will be saved(jk)
I think terms are binding but ideas are liberating.
When someone sees Christ crucified, the love of God is born in their hearts.
When someone sees Christ risen, the faith of God is born in their hearts.
When someone confesses Jesus Christ as Lord, the glory of God is born in their hearts.
Quote from: eaglesway on June 20, 2015, 09:54:31 AM
If love is work, then no one will be saved(jk)
I think terms are binding but ideas are liberating.
When someone sees Christ crucified, the love of God is born in their hearts.
When someone sees Christ risen, the faith of God is born in their hearts.
When someone confesses Jesus Christ as Lord, the glory of God is born in their hearts.
Amen to all said , great things have come out of this thread , no doubt!!
John that is beautiful , I know trying to describe the indescribable ... :laughing7:
Truly a flood fills your heart , a cleansing of all this goodness of God and you can understand what His presence is , a quivering of emotion , and it is best described as a emotion that state of mind and instinctive responses to His ''presence '' of love flooding the very core of your being,
washing away the old nasty hardness of being alone in your misery , and those cries out to God answered and it is more than just feeling , its a hope made alive within that never was there before He come , the loving connection that you are not alone , and something greater with purpose and meaning has forever changed your way of thinking , you could never tell by looking at them at first
But their focus and attitude changed from a negative force to a positive one
or from no emotion and dead like attitude of nothingness and does not care attitude , of why try ?, to seeking a change for the better ..
Man has dubbed it ''depression '' , but it really is a lack of faith , hope and love being the greatest things in living and of Life itself ..
Gods Spirit and presence within us causing spiritual growth of the new creature in Christ ...
Can one kill the Christ within ?
Does the evil within choke out the Word of Life ?
Jesus speaks of the cares of this life doing just that and the worries of
below thinking drown out the good ?
Being on the farm I have seen the same seeds in a row and some drown and die from to much rain seeping into pockets and seen some to close to the surface without enough depth die from sun exposure and yet some ''make it '' despite the elements against them and do go on to produce at harvest time ...
Everyone being ''seed'' was given the same at the same time ,and how some were affected influenced or touched by an external factor and others not at all ,
Maybe that is what
this life is all about ?
Quote from: Seth on June 20, 2015, 07:04:41 AM
Quote from: Tony NBut I will say this: God does not condemn anyone to "Hell" or whatever one wants to call it, for not believing the evangel/gospel.
I think this is probably one of the reasons we have a disagreement about this matter. I think we are coming from a different perspective of salvation. You've mentioned hell in two different posts in this conversation, but I have made it clea that I do not believe in hell and have a totally different way of understanding what salvation is from than anything to do with hell.
I believe that for someone to be saved from alcholism, eventually the man will need to stop drinking. That has nothing to do with hell. Jesus came to save us from SIN. And I believe he uses 100% grace to do that. In Titus 2:11-12 Paul says that God's grace chastens us to abandon ungodliness. I'm not making that up. You can look it up if you like.
It has nothing to do with hell. Nothing to do with hell. I am talking abou salvation (sozo - healing, deliverance) from sin.
You can tell me that a man is saved from alcoholism from faith alone, but I believe that defies common sense. The abandoning of sin eventually requires action. Choosing NOT to do something is as much a work as choosing to do something. If the paraplegic is addicted to porn and faith causes the Spirit to come upon the person and free them from addiction, then choosing NOT to watch porn is a form of salvation that has occurred when faith meets works.
Hello Seth,
When I say there is not one verse in the Bible which states God is trying to save mankind from Hell, it is just that I am thinking out loud. It is not meant to correct someone.
Sure, there are people who, through sheer will have been able to give up being an alcoholic. But the question must be asked: Where did their sheer will come from? I say it came from God even if they are an unbeliever since "[God] gives to all, life and breath and
ALL" (Acts 17:25).
And there are believers who, by being given faith by God, are able to give up being an alcoholic, by God's grace. Some believers are not given the grace to give up their alcoholism. I knew one brother who died from that problem. Yet he was reckoned righteous by God.
I agree with you that we are being saved from many things in this life which might otherwise wreck us. Some things however God does not save us from, most likely to teach us our dependence upon Him among other things.
But the most important thing I feel I need to stress is that, like Abraham, we simply believe God as to what He has declared and God reckons us righteous.
God does not wait for us to give up this or that, join the Baptist Church or what ever church, does not wait for us to give up any sin. He gives us faith and tells us Christ died for our sins, was entombed and roused the third day. God reckons us righteous for believing Him even though He gave us the faith to believe Him. He had to since that faith is not resident in the human prior to Him giving it.
Well I believe, for scriptural reasons already presented, that those who believe in Jesus but then continue to do things like molesting children etc, willfully, will face the wrath of God, for their own good, but their self perceived righteousness isn't going to carry them very far. God will not be mocked.
Ananias and Sapphira were believers. But they tested God and lied. You could say God considered them righteous. Yeah, but they were also dead.
there's a difference between calling out for mercy unto God in honesty..because of awareness of your
lack. and lying to other's and God[sin against spirit] and presenting yourself as more than you really are.
HONESTY...He requires it. a sinner saved by grace and righteous standing in God's eyes as a recipitant
of such grace..though unworthy is more righteous in His eyes then he who prays to himself and says
'I thank you God that I am not like this so and so over here"
the crux of the matter is...if a fellow church member sin against you and molest your child.....you are
required to forgive him[you MUST FORGIVE those who sin against you] that same child molester...though
put in prison or even put to death by the authorities...will be a new creature in ALL IN ALL.
Sheila, it's not a matter of whether or not we forgive, of course we should. It's a question of what the Bible says about judgement.
When Paul turned certain church members over to Satan for a certain education, it's not a matter of whether his father should have forgiven him or not. It's a question of how far did his righteousness take him as he was in the clutches of Satan, based not in what he believed or did not believe but based on what he did.
Quote from: Seth on June 24, 2015, 07:12:45 PM
Ananias and Sapphira were believers. But they tested God and lied. You could say God considered them righteous. Yeah, but they were also dead.
A lot of folks will tell you that they are in Hell. Happily, the hereafter is not like a Chick Tract, and these two people were/are/will be saved, but they also served as an object lesson for the saints. I would not guess if they will need further refining in the LoF, and that's not my call anyway.
you need to quit measuring yourself and righteousness as having surpassed other believers that have fallen
into some of these things you speak of. and start measuring yourself by Jesus standards.
many are called[believers] but few are chosen..and even fewer faithful.
Satan has demanded to sift you like wheat.....and he does....and many have been destroyed in this way
he who thinks he is standing..beware...and pride cometh before a fall....
for satan is like a lion that seeks to devour............and you don't know what may lay ahead for you
the saints'church' was overcome....scandal after scandal of child molestation by the church is on
the news since the 80's...God was judging the church even then...as well as corruption/greed of
finances..consorting with whores,adultery etc...multiple wives..Jim Jones etc.
there is nothing hidden that will not be revealed.
He corrects[even severely] so that all men shall not be recieving the judgement of the wicked one..
even to the putting to death of your flesh with the sin in it...so the spirit may be saved.
...in order that the election would be according to God's will......before they had done good or evil.
Satan has his own election and called ones..to compete in the ministry...satan has his own false prophets
to compete.
actions speak louder than words...and yet it is recorded in the scriptures people healed and made
whole because of what they said...he who recieves a prophet recieves a prophet's reward...........
he who recieves a righteous man recieves a righteous man's reward.
Quote from: sheilayou need to quit measuring yourself and righteousness as having surpassed other believers that have fallen into some of these things you speak of. and start measuring yourself by Jesus standards.
You're passing judgement on me about that. Never in my actual words (apart from what you have apparently assumed) have I even talked about myself and my righteousness in comparison to anyone else. I have only talked about what I believe the Bible says on the matter of faith and works and judgement.
Quote from: sheilaHe corrects[even severely] so that all men shall not be recieving the judgement of the wicked one..
even to the putting to death of your flesh with the sin in it...so the spirit may be saved.
This has been my whole point.
The OP, if you will recall, is titled, "just believing, God considers you righteous" and added the question of whether or not we believe that one must adhere to the commandments of Christ, and that salvation may be enjoyed though belief.
I don't think that carries very far if God severely "corrects" us BASED ON OUR WORKS and not simply based on whether or not we believe or don't believe. What kind of salvation would we "enjoy" if we are turned over to Satan based on being judged "according to our works?" That doesn't sound enjoyable to me.
I'd say correction is part of it, but it's correction through destruction. God gives grace to the humble, but resists ....(the unbelievers?) ....the proud.
Quote from: sheilaactions speak louder than words...and yet it is recorded in the scriptures people healed and made
whole because of what they said...he who recieves a prophet recieves a prophet's reward...........
he who recieves a righteous man recieves a righteous man's reward.
In terms of healing from sin, that's because belief brings the Holy Spirit. Actions to follow receiving the Spirit (at least according to Ephesians 2 and Titus 3) encompass that salvation. Those chapters, from my reading, are saying that the Holy Spirit caused them to walk differently and that different walk saved them from their former walk.
Quote from: Lazarus Short on June 24, 2015, 09:08:18 PM
Quote from: Seth on June 24, 2015, 07:12:45 PM
Ananias and Sapphira were believers. But they tested God and lied. You could say God considered them righteous. Yeah, but they were also dead.
A lot of folks will tell you that they are in Hell. Happily, the hereafter is not like a Chick Tract, and these two people were/are/will be saved, but they also served as an object lesson for the saints. I would not guess if they will need further refining in the LoF, and that's not my call anyway.
:iagree:
That's why I believe the church needs a paradigm shift about what salvation is about and not about.
Quote from: Seth on June 24, 2015, 06:52:12 PM
Well I believe, for scriptural reasons already presented, that those who believe in Jesus but then continue to do things like molesting children etc, willfully, will face the wrath of God, for their own good, but their self perceived righteousness isn't going to carry them very far. God will not be mocked.
Seth are there worse sins than child molesting?
I'd say He corrects us more on our attitude than works. Mark 4;24 Consider carefully what you hear..
with the same measure you use,it will be measured unto you.and even more.
2 Cor 10;12-18 when they measure themselves by themselves and compare themselves.....
I keep hearing a clanging works based salvation Seth..and it bristle's me.Yet,I know your not legalistic
in the sense of where I come out of.
the serpent is more subtil than any beast of the field
the flesh is turned over to satan for the destruction of the flesh..in order that the Spirit be saved..their
spirit is saved...........no flesh declared righteous.
what about David? adultery and murder..yet the anointed of the Lord..was David righteous? or fallible?
and severely corrected.[sin reigned over him through the lust of his eyes]
the saints were overcome..both Israel and christendom......two measures of flour leavened..the third
part..is the ALL in ALL sheer grace of God.
the end of the church age and the beginning of 1000 yr messianic reign of both the living and the dead
He come to break up the works of the devil...those dead in tresspass and sin also belong to Him
Quote from: sheilaI'd say He corrects us more on our attitude than works.
I don't really see much of dilemma between the two. Correcting the attitude kinda goes a long way of correcting the works, imo. I think the crux has to do with what causes the correction to be necessary, lack of belief, or evil works. Or both? I think it would be a serious stretch to say evil works have nothing to do with it.
Quote from: sheilaI keep hearing a clanging works based salvation Seth..and it bristle's me.Yet,I know your not legalistic
in the sense of where I come out of.
A lot of us, I believe, were wrongly taught all our Christian lives that being free from the Law means that works have nothing to do with salvation. We also believed salvation was connected to hell rather than what Apostles said it was about, which was our darkness.
Even when you look in Romans 4, the works Paul was contrasting against faith about was physical circumcision, Law based stuff. Abraham was righteous because he was faithful without a Law. Again, he was FAITHFUL, that's what the word for faith in Hebrew actually means. He had just gotten through talking about how, in Romans 2, the Gentiles were circumcised in the heart by the Spirit and were free from Law, but because their hearts were circumcised,
their works were changed.
Again, I have mentioned it before, but why do we incorporate the Hebrew understanding of Sheol and Olam into our UR understanding, but just totally gloss over the Hebrew understanding of faith? It boggles my mind, really.
I see that as a completely inconsistent approach to Bible study.
Quotewhat about David? adultery and murder..yet the anointed of the Lord..was David righteous? or fallible?
and severely corrected.[sin reigned over him through the lust of his eyes]
David is a great example. Why was he SEVERELY corrected? Was it because he didn't believe in God? How far did his imputed righteousness (if he had that pre-New Covenant) carry him seeing that he lost his son?
"He will judge each man according to his deeds" Romans 2:6
satan loosed went forth and decieved the entire earth and gathered them togather to surround the camp of
the city God loves....then fire come down from heaven and consumed them.
.......the man of lawlessness revealed of which the Lord will do away with the breath of His coming
The irony is that the same folks who enforced legalism taught that works had nothing at all to do with salvation...
I think they were wrong on both counts, not just one.
Quote from: sheila on June 24, 2015, 10:49:48 PM
satan loosed went forth and decieved the entire earth and gathered them togather to surround the camp of
the city God loves....then fire come down from heaven and consumed them.
.......the man of lawlessness revealed of which the Lord will do away with the breath of His coming
Isaiah 30
27 See, the Name of the Lord comes from afar,
with burning anger and dense clouds of smoke;
his lips are full of wrath,
and his tongue is a consuming fire.
28 His breath is like a rushing torrent, rising up to the neck.
He shakes the nations in the sieve of destruction;
he places in the jaws of the peoples
a bit that leads them astray.
33 Topheth (Gehenna) has long been prepared;
it has been made ready for the king.
Its fire pit has been made deep and wide,
with an abundance of fire and wood;
the breath of the Lord,
like a stream of burning sulfur,
sets it ablaze.
"and I shall tell them plainly, I never knew you. Away from me, yet who work iniquity" - Matthew 7:23
judge each man according to his deeds. I see that as in Adam all die[disobedience] and so too shall all
live in Christ[eternal life] One righteous man saved the whole city.
as far as the Lord correcting those He loves..I know it is true.
I come from a very legalistic works based salvation background..with Pharisaic and Sadduciac tones
...heaping up heavy loads impossible to bear..a wicked servant class that says 'the Master is delaying
and begins beating the members of the household' even then we were told...you may or may not survive
but the 'organization will survive..and that's what's important" God's vindication is of the utmost importance
and priority.[even if you did all the works according to their judgement..no guarantee of salvation]
since I have come to Know Him..I have discovered that His LOVE is HIS RIGHTEOUSNESS AND
VINDICATION AND THE SALVATION OF ALL MEN IS HIS GLORY!
ALL LIVES MATTER!!! Because we are a part of HIM...and losing any one of us..is the same as HIM
losing part of Himself.
Quote from: sheilajudge each man according to his deeds. I see that as in Adam all die[disobedience] and so too shall all
live in Christ[eternal life] One righteous man saved the whole city.
as far as the Lord correcting those He loves..I know it is true.
I see it in context with the rest of Romans 2:
Romans 2
6 God "will repay each person according to what they have done."[a] 7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal (aionios) life. 8 But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger.9 There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile; 10 but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. 11 For God does not show favoritism.QuoteI come from a very legalistic works based salvation background..with Pharisaic and Sadduciac tones
...heaping up heavy loads impossible to bear..a wicked servant class that says 'the Master is delaying
and begins beating the members of the household' even then we were told...you may or may not survive
Did they wrap that teaching up in the false doctrine of hell, and connect salvation/healing/deliverance with that?
Listen, I have heard WITH MY OWN EARS people say that God saved them from drug use, alcholism etc. Not ME saying that, THEY did, and they used the word "saved" and they were really happy about it. Only they just didn't yet put it together that was what salvation was all about in the first place, not hell.
Yet,I will not always find fault..for then..even the SPIRIT would fail before me.
Because of HIS GREAT LOVE ye sons of men are not consumed...so,what is consumed? the man of lawlessness
...and he differs from sons of men. Though the sons of men may serve as examples of this wicked one
as recorded in Jude. Satans doom....arrogance has budded...the end of all flesh has come.
...eternal death not torture..was their doctrine.
...before the flood. 'I WILL NOT ALWAYS CONTEND WITH MAN,IN THAT HE IS BUT FLESH" Gen 6
.....I will not always find fault..for then the very spirit shall fail.
I agree, he will not always find fault. :dontknow:
I believe it is discerned at the seperation of the sheep and goats. looking to atonement process as shadow
of reality of Heaven...there are two goats..that are chosen by lots..and distinguished between..
the Lord's lot[goat] is sacrificed on the altar in the temple..and is in the city[consumed] the other
goat..of which the High Priest places all the sins upon his head...is taken into the wilderness[Azazel's]
and shoved over a steep ravine[rocks]
I believe God corrects man in the corrupt image that he not be condemned with the 'wicked one"
and I believe this is shown through the atonement process..the two goats..the distinction made
between the Lord's lot[goat] and Azazel's lot[goat] even the casting of the lot's is from God.
Lord,Lord..didn't we..thus and thus..in your name...would be the people that performed lying signs
that originated with the wicked ones. I believe Jesus seperates..goat/from goat...the wicked one[satan and
demons with their works] from man in the image of the corrupt[or the unregenerate in this life]
I will have mercy on whom I have mercy.
the Lord's lot....[Lot] Abraham's brother. Jesus as kinsman redeemer..to raise UP seed from His dead brother
Adam. He was not ashamed to call them brothers.
I believe pretty much that the object of correction, even severe correction upon his house, is a means to bring forth fruit to the branches without fruit. For the farmer to do this, he must be aware that the branches are without fruit, and not have a view that they all have fruit when they don't. If he cannot distinguish, he cannot prune the tree.
yep Jude..the twice dead..without fruit. those of which John the baptist..when he saw them said unto them
'ye offspring of viper..who showed you the way of salvation? therefore repent and produce fruits of
repentance"
I believe the 'twice dead" are in reality a demonic spirit incapable of repentance...the wicked one's
nature/liar and man killer from the beginning.Blind Pharisee's...those of whom the prince of this world
have blinded/decieved. that evil generation/tare seed that enters not into the promised land/barn.
ye do not enter and those who are entering ye hinder.
I believe men are hardened by God for this purpose to show/manifest openly what is in the unseen
spiritual realm. Such as Pharoah of Egypt that held Israelites in slavery. Pharoah satan/prince of this world
and holding men in slavery to sin works. Even Moses testifying that God would raise up a man from them
even Jesus[Jesus said 'Moses saw my day and rejoiced"
God hardens,whom He will..according to His purpose.
I could see that. He's showing us why we can't save/heal ourselves.
I believe there is an unseen goat[evil spirit] in men that manifest as wicked....the works of the devil
[lawlessness] is burnt up in them/destroyed...and they are saved as through fire.seperated from their
sin...=two goats and lots..The Lord's and Azazels....and they are as unfruitful branches 'Snatched/harpazio
from the fire......saved as through fire. one goat[the man] is burnt on the altar/were not our hearts
burning when He opened the scriptures....God's altar CHANGES THEM/harpazioed snatched.
no one can snatch them from my hand. O'The LORD OF THE DEAD that seperates from the twice dead
I think we sometimes speak with too much confidence about things we know only a little of.
Imagine, standing in a place where the dead are raised and the blind see, where tongues of fire light upon the heads of the anointed and the all have given all so that none has any need.
Stand there seeking to enhance your position in the midst of the congregation by lying in order to aggrandize yourself, while secretly hoarding the gift no one even asked you for as if God was not there to see through it.
I can't imagine it, but I have had a sip of it.
14 But if ye have bitter envying and strife in your hearts, glory not, and lie not against the truth.
15 This wisdom descendeth not from above, but is earthly, sensual, devilish.
16 For where envying and strife is, there is confusion and every evil work.
God adjusted the attitude, and did so with an exclamation point for the whole congregation. It was as if they had carried a golden calf into the holy of holies.
We can speculate as much as we want about all kinds of things but when the glory of God is present is dangerous to glory in the flesh. It is like putting a lightning rod upon your head in a thunder storm. God judged Ananias and Saphira in the midst of the great congregation, to make a point.
I may get throttled for this but.... here goes LOL
God loves everyone, but God does not accept everyone, and God does not tolerate everything. God requires a change of heart. He enables it, and "It is God who is in you to will(attitude) and to do(deeds) of His good pleasure." But He works in the secret place of our hearts, and Only He knows the secrets of the hearts. He judged David for his sin in a way that He knew, by the secrets of David's heart, was perfect for David. David, who loved peace, was at war for the rest of his life. He had war in his own family. He saw thousands of his subjects die for his iniquity......but of course sometimes we forget that the king is connected in a direct line to the heart of the people. God hardened David's heart to number the people. Did God harden David's heart to lust after Bathsheba? To murder Uriah?
Who has known the mind of the Lord? Who has been His counselor?
But Psalm 31 says, "Blessed is the man unto whom the Lord does not impute iniquity." And of Jacob and Esau it is written, " Jacob I have loved and Esau I have hated"- and Paul makes the point that this was before either of them had done anything to desrve anything, but then Paul says it was related to Esau exchanging His birthright for a morsel of food. So I guess we have God knowing Esau before he lived and seeing through to the heart of him. Paul finishes his point, "It is not to him who runs or to him who wills but to God who has mercy".
Why did God have mercy on David and not Ananias and Safira?
Well, we have Ananias and Safira, not recognizing the birthright, the point, the holiness of love as well as the generosity of love- and also the dedication of love to the image of Christ- His inward nature.
But who knows? Only Him.
So, I see God as One who sees greed for glory as greater sin that that of a man who steals something or a man drinking away his pain or a woman who makes a bad choice and loves another womans husband. Perhaps He saw the sin of the men who so wanted to stone the woman caught in adultery as self-righteous, murderous intent....far worse than the sin of the woman.
So He sat with sinners and was called a glutton and a drunkard- but those people He was with were holier than the Pharisees and easier to reach, "The harlots and publicans will enter the kingdom of heaven before you"(religious).
But God will not hang around arrogance and if arrogance forces itself in His face it can get a shocking awakening- a painful epiphany so to speak :o)
"I dwell in the high and holy place and with the one who is of a broken and a contrite heart."
The reason we cant judge is we dont kno the story.
We dont know who is broken, who is wounded, who is imprisoned with chains of mental illness. But we know the mercy of God is the way out, and for mercy to be received there must be repentence. But repentence is not always on the surface, as the parable of the son who said no but then later obeyed, versus the son who said yes but never did obey.
But David humbled himself before the Lord, and God accepted his humble heart, and valued it tremendously. Love covers a multitude of sins.
Have mercy upon me, O God, according to thy lovingkindness: according unto the multitude of thy tender mercies blot out my transgressions.
2 Wash me throughly from mine iniquity, and cleanse me from my sin.
3 For I acknowledge my transgressions: and my sin is ever before me.
4 Against thee, thee only, have I sinned, and done this evil in thy sight: that thou mightest be justified when thou speakest, and be clear when thou judgest.
5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.
6 Behold, thou desirest truth in the inward parts: and in the hidden part thou shalt make me to know wisdom.
7 Purge me with hyssop, and I shall be clean: wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow.
8 Make me to hear joy and gladness; that the bones which thou hast broken may rejoice.
9 Hide thy face from my sins, and blot out all mine iniquities.
10 Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me.
11 Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me.
12 Restore unto me the joy of thy salvation; and uphold me with thy free spirit.
13 Then will I teach transgressors thy ways; and sinners shall be converted unto thee.
14 Deliver me from bloodguiltiness, O God, thou God of my salvation: and my tongue shall sing aloud of thy righteousness.
15 O Lord, open thou my lips; and my mouth shall shew forth thy praise.
16 For thou desirest not sacrifice; else would I give it: thou delightest not in burnt offering.
17 The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit: a broken and a contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise.
18 Do good in thy good pleasure unto Zion: build thou the walls of Jerusalem.
19 Then shalt thou be pleased with the sacrifices of righteousness, with burnt offering and whole burnt offering: then shall they offer bullocks upon thine altar.
When it comes to God , fear of the Lord is what all need to realize , GOD IS THE ONLY ONE who can do anything about our situation
Two things happen one or the other , you begin to seek God , or you do not
When you seek God be careful what you wish for /desire , lust after .....
God may give you your hearts desire and that will be the very thing that does destroy you ,, here we see an excellent example the children of the wilderness
For me only and this is just my opinion , acting outside of Gods will is dangerous , the two that lied against the HOLY SPIRIT excellent example
Even Jesus Christ when facing death asked for this cup to pass from him , and yet God was silent ... in that hour ...
But Jesus always did the right thing and said , not my will but yours be Done .... excellent example for us when asking God for anything ..GOD KNOWS
that is total commitment , trust and faith and obedience to the max , I mean death is the ultimate end in the mortal concept of this life ... and gave up His Spirit as an offering to God , to give to the world as a gift of Himself .. unto your power /hands I commit /commend my Spirit ... though he was doing the spiritual works still being in the flesh and blood as an example of the Spirit working of God in mankind ..
commend
to place beside or near or set before
food, i.e. food placed on a table
to set before (one) in teaching
to set forth (from one's self), to explain
to place down (from one's self or for one's self) with any one
to deposit
to intrust, commit to one's charge
Jesus is the most perfect example we have there is no error in Him , and so,, there is no excuse ...
Like the children of the wilderness had ignorance //darkness
What man does now is try to Quinch the Spirit ! and put the fire and Light out , because lawlessness abounds the love of many become cold
But Jesus said of the last DAY Church , I want you either hot or cold ,both still workable and teachable , the lukewarm and puke warm state is a rejected condition of no use in Gods will they become complacent and satisfied with what they have ..
They soon forgot His works; they did not wait for His counsel, but lusted exceedingly in the wilderness, and tested God in the desert. And He gave them their request, but sent leanness into their soul" (Psalms 106:13-15).
"Men ate angels' food; He sent them food to the full. He caused an east wind to blow in the heavens; and by His power He brought in the south wind. He also rained meat on them like the dust, feathered fowl like the sand of the seas; and He let them fall in the midst of their camp, all around their dwellings. So they ate and were well filled, for He gave them their own desire.
They were not deprived of their craving; but while their food was still in their mouths, the wrath of God came against them, and slew the stoutest of them, and struck down the choice men of Israel. In spite of this they still sinned, and did not believe in His wondrous works" (Psalms 78:25-32).
Amen to both posts John an Rose, I think it's good that we have agreed that salvation is multi layered. For my part I understand that salvation from guilt for previous sins requires no works, because if you believe in Jesus, those past sins are forgiven by God, creating a clean slate to build upon. I need to take that into account when discussing salvation. When it comes to salvation from sin in action, I believe the NT heavily testifies that works are intrinsic and even common sense. Salvation is a many layered thing.
I always remember Seth the parable of considering the costs of building on the foundation of Jesus Christ
I agree Shelia sees the end result of those whom were fitted for destruction will also have eternal life and I agree with her , because of What Jesus done
But in the here and now , it does make a difference in how we build to follow Jesus
For me this is the running the race Paul speaks of also
The Cost of Being Jesus' Follower
25 Large crowds were traveling with Jesus, and he turned and said to them,
26 "If anyone comes to me but ·does not hate [or loves more than me; Jesus is using hyperbole to emphasize his point] his father, mother, wife, children, brothers, or sisters—or even ·life [life itself; or his own life]—he cannot be my ·follower [disciple].
27 Whoever ·is not willing to [ does not] carry his own cross and follow me cannot be my ·follower [disciple].
28 ·If you want [L For which of you who wants...?] to build a tower, you first sit down and ·decide [calculate; figure out] how much it will cost, to see if you have enough money to finish the job.
29 If you don't, you might lay the foundation, but you would not be able to finish. Then all who would see it would ·make fun of [mock; ridicule] you, 30 saying, 'This person began to build but was not able to finish.'
31 "If a king is going to ·fight [meet in battle; wage war against] another king, first ·he will [L will he not...?] sit down and plan. He will decide if he and his ten thousand soldiers can ·defeat [L engage/meet in battle] the other king who has twenty thousand soldiers. 32 If he can't, then while the other king is still far away, he will send ·some people [an embassy; a messenger] to speak to him and ask for [terms of] peace.
33 In the same way, you must give up everything you have to be my ·follower [disciple].
I believe the ruling and reigning with Christ is now as from now on , no end in sight , not in the next age and believe this is also Sheila's point too
and will all have the same in Christ , being the Lord of the dead and living Romans 14
5 One person regards one day above another, another regards every day alike. Each person must be fully convinced in his own mind. 6 He who observes the day, observes it for the Lord, and he who eats, does so for the Lord, for he gives thanks to God; and he who eats not, for the Lord he does not eat, and gives thanks to God. 7 For not one of us lives for himself, and not one dies for himself; 8 for if we live, we live for the Lord, or if we die, we die for the Lord; therefore whether we live or die, we are the Lord's. 9 For to this end Christ died and lived again, that He might be Lord both of the dead and of the living.
10 But you, why do you judge your brother? Or you again, why do you regard your brother with contempt? For we will all stand before the judgment seat of God. 11 For it is written,
"As I live, says the Lord, every knee shall bow to Me,
And every tongue shall give praise to God."
12 So then each one of us will give an account of himself to God.
We will surrender to Christ but yet give praise and account to God of what was given to you in the first place by His Holy Spirit , to me this says a lot in a of itself the WORD OF GOD judges us all , as idle words spoken or Word of truth , this is our own accountability before Him
and to those whom nothing was given they have no accountability before God but do receive the free gift of Life by Jesus Christ doings they will love and praise God for this , and those whom so much was given have much to be responsible for , Paul gives good reason to prove this by His own confession
as the race to finish the work even Jesus cried out it is finished on the cross as to His work , we have a work if elected to do so , just as the prophets were called in the days of darkness as a star or light in the ignorance of mankind to Gods plan , Jesus being the LIGHT OF THE WORLD is how the Light would brighten even brighter and brighter and never go out ...
13 Therefore let us not judge one another anymore, but rather determine this—not to put an obstacle or a stumbling block in a brother's way.
14 I know and am convinced in the Lord Jesus that nothing is unclean in itself; but to him who thinks anything to be unclean, to him it is unclean.
15 For if because of food your brother is hurt, you are no longer walking according to love. Do not destroy with your food him for whom Christ died. 16 Therefore do not let what is for you a good thing be spoken of as evil;
17 for the kingdom of God is not eating and drinking, but righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit.
18 For he who in this way serves Christ is acceptable to God and approved by men.
19 So then we pursue the things which make for peace and the building up of one another.
20 Do not tear down the work of God for the sake of food.
All things indeed are clean, but they are evil for the man who eats and gives offense.
21 It is good not to eat meat or to drink wine, or to do anything by which your brother stumbles.
22 The faith which you have, have as your own conviction before God.
Happy is he who does not condemn himself in what he approves.
23 But he who doubts is condemned if he eats, because his eating is not from faith; and whatever is not from faith is sin./error in judgment or opinion
and for me trying to conform others to our judgment and opinion is what puts that very stumbling block of offense in the way , that does not make for peace but divisions
being religion and not in the same SPIRIT AND TRUTH the Father seeks those to worship Him in which really is LOVE and forgiveness on all whom come to Christ ...
Just my faith here and belief
May God bless everyone as He does and has been all along by His amazing grace ...
I do agree to a point, but I do want to point out that Paul is talking about meat there, not child molestation. He wasn't saying that child molestation is clean, just not profitable. He was talking about things which are not inherently sinful. Sin is lawlessness, and under the new covenant we have two commandments, believe in Jesus and love eachother. By that we can discern what is clean and what is not. My opinion.
My quick thought on Romans 7:
Romans 7 = no salvation from the body of this death under the Law
Romans 8 = salvation from death by walking according to the Spirit
The Law is good but cannot save us from sin.
personal expierence. brother-in-law molested my little grand-daughter under the age of 5 and it was not
known. Seven years later had a family cookout and said brother-in-law attended. ps brother-n-law
believed in Jesus..but was not strong..I had tried to share the salvation of all with him..and he didn't accept it
he went online and got preaching license.
at the cookout..my daughter..who had recently come to know of the molestation..prayed to God..and asked
Him if that was really what He wanted..for her and daughter to act like nothing happened and cover it over.
..she was struggling with her knowledge of what had occurred. He had a heart attack that night at my
cookout and died the next day.
I found out about the molestation 3 months later when my grand-daughter was hospitalized with mental
problems and become severely ill. I couldn't hardly be around my sister at that time. I had been asked to
keep it quiet by my grand-daughter. My sister kept coming over with pictures of her new grandbaby...
named after 'him' and just the mention of his name made me want to puke! My sister doesn't know to this
day.
It's been a rough road for my grand-daughter..she almost destroyed herself with drugs...and did not
believe God existed[atheist]
I had to forgive him..and I do...and I am glad God has made a new creature out of him......
all are healing...all is forgiven...the suffering of this great evil is for eternal benefits..it is behind us all
Quote from: Seth on June 25, 2015, 06:52:07 PM
I do agree to a point, but I do want to point out that Paul is talking about meat there, not child molestation. He wasn't saying that child molestation is clean, just not profitable. He was talking about things which are not inherently sinful. Sin is lawlessness, and under the new covenant we have two commandments, believe in Jesus and love eachother. By that we can discern what is clean and what is not. My opinion.
I agree with you in that Seth!!
I know we can have eternal life now though Jesus Christ ..Gods son/HOLY SEED ,
I also know that having the Christ seed in you , we are to pray for the sin that is not unto death in those beliving , but those are of the false , [man of sin and lawlessness ]
but there is a sin unto death and we are NOT t pray for that , death would be a good thing ,
in the sense it has an end ... not a literal death , but the Holy Spirit conviction that proves the error that they are NOT OF CHRIST ....!!!!!! This is how we also will know ..
9 If we receive the testimony of men,
the testimony of God is greater; for the testimony of God is this, that He has testified concerning His Son. 10 The one who believes in the
Son of God has the testimony in himself;
the one who does not believe God has made Him a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has given concerning His Son.
11
And the testimony is this, t
hat God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. 12
He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life.This Is Written That You May Know13 These things I have written to you
who believe in the name of the Son of God,
so that you may know that you have eternal life. 14 This is the confidence which we have before Him, that,
if we ask anything according to His will, He hears us.
15 And if we know that He hears us in whatever we ask,
we know that we have the requests which we have asked from Him.16
If anyone sees his brother committing a sin not leading to death, he shall ask and God will for him give life to those who commit sin not leading to death. T
here is a sin leading to death; I do not say that he should make request for this. 17
All unrighteousness is sin, and there is a sin not leading to death.1
8 We know that no one who is born of God sins; but He who was born of God keeps him, and the evil one does not touch him.
19
We know that we are of God, and that the whole world lies in the power of the evil one. 20 A
nd we know that the Son of God has come, and has given us understanding so that we may know Him who is true;
a
nd we are in Him who is true, in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life. 21 Little children,
guard yourselves from idols.
I honestly do not think anyone molesting a child in the spiritual sense or the literal sense of the Word has Jesus Christ seed in them ...
This to me is the measuring line and the big division of the sheep and goats , the wise and foolish virgins and the great separation between the TRUE and the false and the evil and the good ....
The evil one does not touch the HOLY SEED /CHRIST !! ITS IS INCORRUPTIBLE AND REMAINS WITHIN THE TRUE BELIEVER , Seen and heard by the other true believers the voice of many waters are all those in Christ and the seed remains and grows according to the permitting of GODS GRACE
THEY SHALL NEVER DIE , the mortality is only a husk they shuck in harvest time '' reaping'' in Gods kingdom /barn storehouse for others to share in that come to Christ , but the ''fruit/Corn or some other grain '' is LIVING from that point on ..
Blessings from on High :friendstu:
Wow , you were writing this Shelia when I posted already...
I agree the free gift is free ,, because of Christ work on the cross
and He Alone is the righteous Judge whom is able to save and destroy any of us in our sin
by the LAW
James 4 applies here I believe
11Do not speak against one another, brethren.
He who speaks against a brother or judges his brother, speaks against the law and judges the law;
but if you judge the law, you are not a doer of the law but a judge of it.
12There is only one Lawgiver and Judge, the One who is able to save and to destroy; but who are you who judge your neighbor?
I am seeing finally sin and error cause more sins and error , like your girl , she may have not ever went down that path of self destruction if she would have had the love of God ,,,in she matters to God !! and is loved and could love her self , and forgiving is not a human attribute in my opinion
it is natural to hate , despise and want revenge , and those kind of thoughts are tormenting to the one suffering within themselves over being wronged
As the evil one takes a hold of our weak flesh natures and desires to destroy our flesh with our own judgments against the law :sigh:
I CAN SEE that those forgiven much will love much !!!
because much is forgiven of GOD !!
THE END was always in GODS HANDS and whatever way it ends GOD WILL BE GLORIFIED in it !!!! :HeartThrob:
This place is very temporary and glad she is doing so much better these days as prayer does change things to the ONLY ONE WHO CAN CHANGE us all
in His time will and ways .......
Can someone explain this verse
Quote from: rosered18 We know that no one who is born of God sins; but He who as born of God keeps him, and the evil one does not touch him
Does this mean that if you sin you are not born of God. What about that believer in the bible that was tested by Satan to destroy his flesh?
I forgot to say , that I believe when we are under the most pressure and most horrible of circumstances is when the CHRIST SEED IS PLANTED IN OUR HEARTS , When the earth our mortal bodies are undergoing some real painful tilling and fire is destroying everything we though we knew
and beg for an end , to make it stop !! Than we cry out to God in that pain and He is faithful and reviews us , examines our hearts and knows our pain and mercy Comes by HIM ...
now in order to repay that debt of being merciful to us , we must also show mercy on others whom are experiencing the same painful losses and change
always praying for the better and not for the worse .....
Sheila, thank you for sharing that. It must be very painful and I am glad to see good coming from it. Metaphorically, God could snap his fingers and make everything perfect instantly, but I think he is taking time to reveal things about our nature.
We can take slivers of Romans 4 and other slivers and let them stand as whole doctrine. But, I think acknowledging the layers of salvation (from guilt, from sin in action, from the inner man to the outer man) helps tie the whole body of NT epistles together to get the whole view. I really think that is a great way to resolve some of the seeming conflicts between the epistles that the church has struggled with for many years.
Once hell gets involved, the whole thing goes sideways and that's how I think legalism gets introduced, when we tie together James 2 with smoking cigarettes rather than getting to the heart of what he was talking about, which is loving eachother, from the internal but also the external. I see it as salvation, not from hell and not through the Law of Moses, but salvation from being unloving through a spiritual injection of love.
Quote from: Aerex on June 25, 2015, 08:23:37 PM
Can someone explain this verse
Quote from: rosered18 We know that no one who is born of God sins; but He who as born of God keeps him, and the evil one does not touch him
Does this mean that if you sin you are not born of God. What about that believer in the bible that was tested by Satan to destroy his flesh?
Hi Aerex ,
Good question ,
the SEED within you is Christ it is totally indestructible,,, it is the true treasure in your heart ..
but we do by nature , being mortal still continue to sin , being weak and still think in the carnal way which is death , all puffy and prideful , this is your man of sin you must contend with till Christ destroys him by the breath of His coming
, I wish we could stay in the SPIRIT OF CHRIST all the time , but if you confess it , bring it out on the open and to the light for all to see , you are forgiven
JESUS CHRIST is our advocate [ between us and God that speaks on our behalf , like a lawyer would for you in a court of a LAW As the case is brought before the Holy courts system
I believe this is truth
You being born again by the Spirit and seed of Christ in you is now really at warring within between the two natures in my opinion
till the LORD TAKES this man of sin out of the ways for good ,,,,, he gets fried by the coming of the Lord and the holy one remains
I believe that when Jesus said you will not taste death TILL the Son of man comes is speaking directly to this man of sin in us all but does not hear what the Spirit is saying nor anyone who has the same testimony of Jesus Christ in them ....
and the Spiritual man hears HIS VOICE AS a voice of many waters this being all them that are already gathered in Christ all ready , If they be spiritual only or if they be spiritual and still in an earthly body , till its use is done and over with on the earth
Some are hidden in fleshly bodies still and SOME are not
But it is ONE SPIRIT ONE BODY ONE BAPTISM AND ONE FAITH Being in Christ already in my opinion /judgement
wrong or right I will be judged by this WORD as
idle or truth ...
and it is on me to be judged accordingly as error or truth .
We all carry this within us ...
By faith I have said it and Gods WORD will judge .
Aerex...I think Paul explained it pretty well....I agree with the law[in my mind heart=spirit one with God]
but in my flesh there is sin's law.....therefore it is no longer I that sin..but the sin dwelling in my flesh
....who will deliver me from this body[corrupt sinful flesh] that is undergoing this death?
Jesus showed in the parable of the wheat sown in the field[=spirit child] and an enemy hath sown
tares in the night. field=dust of our fleshly bodies sown with sin/evil.....do not eat of the tree of knowledge
of good AND EVIL....KNOW is to become one flesh with. our flesh is weak..in that both positive[good]
and negative[evil] spirit may move it. when Adam/Eve partook of the tree in disobedience it opened
the door for sin to enter all flesh-the works of the devil/liar brought forth..causing death....
so..the new spiritual creature born of God is bound up in a body of sin....and struggles and wrestles
to gain dominion over it's own sin in it's flesh by the spirit..that it can be vessel for honourable use by
the Lord....I give you authority to trample serpents. Sin is a demon that croucheth at the door..it desires
to rule over you..but you must master it.[Genesis 4;7]
Quote from: Seth on June 25, 2015, 08:42:35 PM
Sheila, thank you for sharing that. It must be very painful and I am glad to see good coming from it. Metaphorically, God could snap his fingers and make everything perfect instantly, but I think he is taking time to reveal things about our nature.
We can take slivers of Romans 4 and other slivers and let them stand as whole doctrine. But, I think acknowledging the layers of salvation (from guilt, from sin in action, from the inner man to the outer man) helps tie the whole body of NT epistles together to get the whole view. I really think that is a great way to resolve some of the seeming conflicts between the epistles that the church has struggled with for many years.
Once hell gets involved, the whole thing goes sideways and that's how I think legalism gets introduced, when we tie together James 2 with smoking cigarettes rather than getting to the heart of what he was talking about, which is loving eachother, from the internal but also the external. I see it as salvation, not from hell and not through the Law of Moses, but salvation from being unloving through a spiritual injection of love.
Amen Seth ! and I know this was for Shelia
But have to agree the LORDS WORD IS BALANCED , going to far out there and saying anything goes , is not without merit , we reap what we sow , you sow discord or to the flesh , you get that harvest and its yours to eat ,,and death is on the menu plate ..
but than we can become to legalistic and are no better off than the PHARISEES , lording the law over others and failing the test ourselves
Which love overcomes a multitude of sin /error 1peter 4
Living for God's Glory :HeartThrob:
...7The end of all things is near;
therefore, be of sound judgment and sober spirit for the purpose of prayer.
8
Above all, keep fervent in your love for one another, because love covers a multitude of sins. 9B
e hospitable to one another without complaint....
Quote from: Aerex on June 25, 2015, 08:23:37 PM
Can someone explain this verse
Quote from: rosered18 We know that no one who is born of God sins; but He who as born of God keeps him, and the evil one does not touch him
Does this mean that if you sin you are not born of God. What about that believer in the bible that was tested by Satan to destroy his flesh?
In one
1 John 3:9 he uses the Greek word "
poiei" in relation to sin. "Does not poiei sin." The word was translated as "does not commit sin" which implies a single act of sin. But the word means "practice" or "does not PRACTICE sin." You can see from other contexts this kind of implication of "continuance:"
In Matthew 7:17 the term is used in relation to a tree: "Every good tree bringeth forth (produces - poiei) good fruit but a corrupt tree bringeth forth (produces - poiei) bad fruit"
I think the implication, along with many other scriptures, is that one who is born of God does not continue producing bad fruit as a general rule, or as a continuing practice, not as a single incident.
even the suffering of great evil is profitable..if it refines your faith heart love. Look at Job's expierence
perfection comes from obedience through suffering. and the evil is what provides the suffering.
I agree. You would just want to avoid the evil coming from your own actions.
Yes JESUS EXPLAINS ,Make the tree good and it fruit good or make the tree corrupt and its fruit corrupt ... a tree is known by its fruit
How ? Like Seth pointed out start practicing what you hear in the WORD OF GOD in your life ..
Shelia
Quoteeven the suffering of great evil is profitable..if it refines your faith heart love. Look at Job's expierence
perfection comes from obedience through suffering. and the evil is what provides the suffering.
Quote from: Seth on June 25, 2015, 09:02:38 PM
I agree. You would just want to avoid the evil coming from your own actions.
GOD helped me big time when reading 1 Peter 3
It be better if God will you suffer for doing good and not evil , and that is just keeping your conscience clean open , honest and real , and not having those feeling of guilt all the time LIKE me and so many known have carried for along time within , it awful to feel guilty all the time and God seems so approachable to you in that condition .. :sigh:
Suffering for Righteousness
...16and keep a good conscience so that in the thing in which you are slandered
those who revile your good behavior in Christ will be put to shame.
17
For it is better, if God should will it so, that you suffer for doing what is right rather than for doing what is wrong. 18For Christ also died for sins
once for all, the just for the unjust,
so that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh
, but made alive in the spirit;...
:dsunny: :thumbsup:
for those that recieve the Holy spirit in this realm....that token begins the seperating of the new creature in
Christ from the appearance of sin in it's flesh. Greater is He that is in you..than he that is in the world.
the whole creation groans for the manifestation of the sons of God.
for the creature was subjected to vanity,not of it's own will..but by Him who subjected it...that the
whole creation be set free into the glorious liberty of the sons of God.
For Christ will appear again..seperate from sin.
Quote from: Seth on June 25, 2015, 08:57:26 PM
Quote from: Aerex on June 25, 2015, 08:23:37 PM
Can someone explain this verse
Quote from: rosered18 We know that no one who is born of God sins; but He who as born of God keeps him, and the evil one does not touch him
Does this mean that if you sin you are not born of God. What about that believer in the bible that was tested by Satan to destroy his flesh?
I think the implication, along with many other scriptures, is that one who is born of God does not continue producing bad fruit as a general rule, or as a continuing practice, not as a single incident.
Sorry I don't understand I never met a person claiming to be a child of God and never has continued to produce bad fruit. This is like saying that a person who is born of God can only lie once and if he or she makes a habit of it then that person is no longer born of God or was never born if God to begin with. However I don't think that is what you are saying.
Quote from: Aerex on June 25, 2015, 08:23:37 PM
Can someone explain this verse
Quote from: rosered18 We know that no one who is born of God sins; but He who as born of God keeps him, and the evil one does not touch him
Does this mean that if you sin you are not born of God. What about that believer in the bible that was tested by Satan to destroy his flesh?
Hello Aerex,
It can not possible mean that if you sin you are not born of God. The writer of 1 John also fell short of perfection...........in other words he sinned.
Take a walk through the whole book, it is a short read.
Chapter 1
8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
To sin is to miss the mark of love, or it is to break the law. We are not under the law, so we make laws for ourselves. We don't even know the law, because we are not Jewish. The laws we make for ourselves may be good and may be not so good. We put ourselves under many doctrines that we will grow out of as we mature in Christ. Our faith grows, our understand grows, we mature and start to understand how the Spirit of Christ works in us, though we sin.................we fall short. We fall short in order for us to learn to trust Him who is trustworthy.
Chapter 1
9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
We have all done a whole lot of confessing. That is Christ working in you. That is you working on the issues that you deem to be sin.
Confessing our sins is a simple act of humbleness, that God respects and works with. In this life the need for humility does not go away. We are always looking to one who is greater then ourselves, for the purpose of becoming like the one who is greater then ourselves. Christ is our helper in this endeavor, Christ is in us for that purpose.
There is part of us that is not subject to God, neither indeed can be. I have been reading Romans. It is an awesome portrayal of the struggle between the fresh and the Spirit
Romans 8
26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.
27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.
I love that verse. The Spirit helps our infirmities........where we are frail and fall short, and the Spirit makes intercession for us. God's Spirit is in you, working with you where you know you are week. We can't hide it from God or His Spirit, and now comes the awesome part!
Romans 8
34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.
Christ makes intercession for us! Our faith is all about Him who is faithful, and set in the place of supreme authority at the right of God, not unreachable, but always present to help in our time of need.
There are many things in the Bible that are hard to understand. We don't have to understand them all right away. There are things that we will never understand fully.
There are many parts of the Bible that I don't get, but the thing that is important is our fellowship with the living God.
Chapter 12 of 1 Corinthians ends with this:
31 But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way.
The more excellent is where Paul gets into Love.
1 Corinthians 13
13 If I speak in the tongues[a] of men or of angels, but do not have love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. 2 If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. 3 If I give all I possess to the poor and give over my body to hardship that I may boast, but do not have love, I gain nothing.
4 Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5 It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6 Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7 It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.
8 Love never fails.
God is love. In all things God works with us in love. God works with us to brings us the place of love.
If you are willing to work on love, you will see Christ working in you, and have no worry of not being his...........you will know that you are his, because you desire to love. You will fall short, but we have an intercessor who is always there for us to help us back on the path.
Quote from: Aerex on June 26, 2015, 03:21:07 PM
Quote from: Seth on June 25, 2015, 08:57:26 PM
Quote from: Aerex on June 25, 2015, 08:23:37 PM
Can someone explain this verse
Quote from: rosered18 We know that no one who is born of God sins; but He who as born of God keeps him, and the evil one does not touch him
Does this mean that if you sin you are not born of God. What about that believer in the bible that was tested by Satan to destroy his flesh?
I think the implication, along with many other scriptures, is that one who is born of God does not continue producing bad fruit as a general rule, or as a continuing practice, not as a single incident.
Sorry I don't understand I never met a person claiming to be a child of God and never has continued to produce bad fruit. This is like saying that a person who is born of God can only lie once and if he or she makes a habit of it then that person is no longer born of God or was never born if God to begin with. However I don't think that is what you are saying.
There's a difference between claiming and being. I don't think struggling with something automatically means a person is or is not a child of God. I leave it to God to decide, but the Bible does contain some pretty clear teaching on it. According to Romans 8, nobody knows who they are, and Peter said to make our calling and election sure, I believe for that reason.
Paul said we are running a race. It's a bit early to be claiming crowns before the race is finished, imo.
"The evil one does not touch him". John has already said in his first epistle....."If any man sins we have a propitiation for our sins..... and.... If we say we have no sin we are a liar.....and....If we confess our sins He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins"..
This is a better translation,"We know that anyone born of God does not continue to sin; the One who was born of God keeps them safe, and the evil one cannot harm them." NIV
We know that the person who has been born from God does not go on sinning. Rather, the Son of God protects them, and the evil one cannot harm them. ISV.
One who is born of God is struggling to overcome sin, and the evil one cannot take him/her out of the Father's hand.
They are in the world, not of it. They are overcoming the world by loving God and one another- the new commandment of Jesus.
This does not mean they do not fail, suffer loss, or stumble, or the Lord would not have made provision for forgiveness both between Him and us and between us as members of the body.
"Forgive one another".... Why? If no one ever sins? "Confess your faults one to another" Why? If no one ever sins?
As children of God, if we sin, we agree with God when conviction comes upon us and we confess our sin and receive forgiveness and continue to pray for grace to overcome the flesh.
My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. 1 John 2:1
Seth, I am not sure what you mean by, "According to Romans 8 no one knows who they are".
I know exactly who I am, and what is available to me because of who I am- a child of God. I believe that our victory is in knowing exactly wh we are. This knowledge strengthens us against the wiles of the devil, one of which is to get us to doubt our salvation if we are struggling, which weakens us in the struggle.
Romans 8
1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
This is the victory by which we overcome the world, even our faith.
I love plain speech and desire clarity , simple honest , clear cut truth in matters ..
I believe we are two natured beings when born again by Spirit and being Spirit ...awakening by LIGHT AND LOVE
and we still carry the beastly carnal nature in us as the lower form of intelligence and it is worldly goes by what it feels and wants , that is the firstborn of every one born of woman
one serves the other as ''either'' '' or'' ... selfish or selfless
and it is the spiritual growth that Gods Spirit gives us to ''get the upper hand '' or power over our carnal mindedness , having the'' mind of Christ'' is the beginning of salvation to me and putting an end to sin.... error wrong and negative ways and not being positive and pure and good , loving God and loving everyone , just as you have'' self served''' since being born naturally as a baby fussing to get your own needs met and wanting your way all the time in everything but never ever outgrowing this stage of your life , staying stuck in your baby fits ways ...
sin to me is lawlessness , but the LAW IS LOVE , so its the lack of love to me that stunts Spiritual growth
Like quenching the Spirit or speaking against the HOLY SPIRIT , The very thing that helps you to change your nature into ONE PURE AND HOLY NATURE AS GODS HOLY ONE
LOVE teaches and corrects and matures by practicing it over and over again , till you master it
no one is above their MASTER JESUS CHRIST He took a lot of abuse for doing good to anyone and everyone who asked Him
and the ones whom criticized Him for telling them the TRUTH hated Him for it and wanted to kill him , the very Spirit that saves them
Sad to me just how much love they lacked in them , they were wanting power , not Love , not knowing that LOVE IS THE VERY POWER they reject
Obedience is a thousands times better than sacrifice , that is to kill the Christ /lamb , innocent one in you before God to make amends for disobedience in the first place ....
this is how I can see it plain and simple , no fancy words or terms or ways , its very , very personal , when you stand and will bow before the Lord NO ONE will be there to give account for the way you done with the life God gave you , but you ...
How you treated the WORD OF LIFE and His Holy Spirit and one another causing them to suffer for your own want and gain and selfish ambition with loads of chances to make up for them mistakes ...
Little children have to learn what is right to do what is right , you cannot learn if you are to '' smart'' to learn .. we are to learn from our mistakes /error /sin
The Bible calls leaning on your own understanding and crafty in your own ways and deceiving your own heart , Thinking you are above the LAW ..
and we know that is not the truth .. The Truth is the LAW ... and if you Love the truth , you love the law , because the Law is Love in the Highest form
Being God Himself ..
Quote from: eaglesway on June 26, 2015, 06:38:43 PM
Seth, I am not sure what you mean by, "According to Romans 8 no one knows who they are".
I know exactly who I am, and what is available to me because of who I am- a child of God. I believe that our victory is in knowing exactly wh we are. This knowledge strengthens us against the wiles of the devil, one of which is to get us to doubt our salvation if we are struggling, which weakens us in the struggle.
Romans 8
1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
This is the victory by which we overcome the world, even our faith.
Very well, then make your calling and election sure. I don't claim a crown until the race is finished.
1 John 3
8 The one who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil's work. 9 No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God. 10 This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not God's child, nor is anyone who does not love their brother and sister.
11 For this is the message you heard from the beginning: We should love one another. 12 Do not be like Cain, who belonged to the evil one and murdered his brother. And why did he murder him? Because his own actions were evil and his brother's were righteous. 13 Do not be surprised, my brothers and sisters, if the world hates you. 14 We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love each other. Anyone who does not love remains in death. 15 Anyone who hates a brother or sister is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life residing in him.
The Bible says that false prophets will enter in but we shall know them by their fruit. Those prophets may CLAIM to from God, but the scripture tells us there's a way to discern what is claimed vs what is actual.
Quote from: Seth on June 26, 2015, 06:08:15 PM
Paul said we are running a race. It's a bit early to be claiming crowns before the race is finished, imo.
I believe the two crowns one wears is the crown of thorns , that is suffering for sin , either your own sins or the sins of others [Taking up your cross ,JUST LIKE JESUS done and showed us the WAY ] the mockers are the ones that make the crown of thorns 'messengers of adversity '' in our flesh But remembering Gods grace is sufficient /enough Or our own thorns in the flesh are unholy thoughts and torment and failures , Like Peter when He was torn up about denying Jesus 3 times before mankind Matt 13 ... the seed among thorns are the works of mens hands and powers that be , study on thorns in the WORD
and the crown of Life is the TRUTH , the gold tried in the fire ,we buy of Him ] the Golden Rule Law is to Love above all else
that is forgiving and not holding any ill against anyone for any reason , This is how we become pure and stay pure /clean of wrongdoing ...
It is so much easier to say than it is to do , but all things are possible with God and by your faith being tested , that is even more precious than gold , is what pleases God ...
Quotethe gold tried in the fire ,we buy of Him ] the Golden Rule Law is to Love above all else
that is forgiving and not holding any ill against anyone for any reason , This is how we become pure and stay pure /clean of wrongdoing ...
:iagree:
Quote from: Seth on June 26, 2015, 07:21:04 PM
The Bible says that false prophets will enter in but we shall know them by their fruit. Those prophets may CLAIM to from God, but the scripture tells us there's a way to discern what is claimed vs what is actual.
Exactly Seth ,
What makes them false teachers ?
They say,,, but do not do what is right in the Sight of God . . . Jesus said do as they say but not as they do...
Do What They Say! - Matthew 23:1-3
Then Jesus spoke to the people and to his followers. Jesus said, "The teachers of the law and the Pharisees have the authority (power) to tell you what the law of Moses says. So you should obey the things they say. You should do all the things they tell you to do.
But their lives are not good examples for you to follow. They tell you to do things, but they don't do those things themselves."
False teachers Paul compliments the Galatian believers for running a good race. Running a race was one of Paul's favorite sayings for '
'living the Christ life''.by the Holy Spirit .
Saying, how well they were
obeying the truth in Gal 5 .
But we know the signs , they are not careful how they hear what the Spirit is saying ...
They do not obey
the TRUTH , they are ravenous wolves in sheep's clothing .
Eager to destroy those with the TRUTH lacking Love !!!
Woe woe woe how many woes did Jesus say to them exposed false teachers,
8 woes bringing misery on themselves and their own heads ... note it is 3 that are of the group , beast/ carnal , false prophet/liar and adversary/accuser slanderer murderer before God .
Matt 23 1- Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for you shut up the kingdom of Heaven against men.
2- Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for you devour widows' houses, and pray at length as a pretense.
3- Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for you travel land and sea to win one proselyte, and when he is won, you make him twice as much a son of hell as yourselves.
4- Woe to you, blind guides, who say, "Whoever swears by the temple, it is nothing; but whoever swears by the gold of the temple, he is obliged to perform it."
5- Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for you pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have neglected the weightier matters of the law:
justice and mercy and faith.6- Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for you cleanse the outside of the cup and dish, but inside they are full of extortion and self-indulgence.
7- Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for you are like whitewashed tombs which indeed appear beautiful outwardly, but inside are full of dead men's bones and all uncleanness.
8- Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! Because you build the tombs of the prophets and adorn the monuments of the righteous, and say, "If we had lived in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets."
the HOLY SPIRIT IS OUR TEACHER IT IS THE SPIRIT OF TRUTH by the Word of God ....
Quote from: rosered on June 26, 2015, 07:31:11 PM
Quote from: Seth on June 26, 2015, 06:08:15 PM
Paul said we are running a race. It's a bit early to be claiming crowns before the race is finished, imo.
I believe the two crowns one wears is the crown of thorns , that is suffering for sin , either your own sins or the sins of others [Taking up your cross ,JUST LIKE JESUS done and showed us the WAY ] the mockers are the ones that make the crown of thorns 'messengers of adversity " in our flesh But remembering Gods grace is sufficient /enough Or our own thorns in the flesh are unholy thoughts and torment and failures , Like Peter when He was torn up about denying Jesus 3 times before mankind Matt 13 ... the seed among thorns are the works of mens hands and powers that be , study on thorns in the WORD
and the crown of Life is the TRUTH , the gold tried in the fire ,we buy of Him ] the Golden Rule Law is to Love above all else
that is forgiving and not holding any ill against anyone for any reason , This is how we become pure and stay pure /clean of wrongdoing ...
It is so much easier to say than it is to do , but all things are possible with God and by your faith being tested , that is even more precious than gold , is what pleases God ...
:iagree:
Quote from: eaglesway on June 26, 2015, 06:28:21 PM
"The evil one does not touch him". John has already said in his first epistle....."If any man sins we have a propitiation for our sins..... and.... If we say we have no sin we are a liar.....and....If we confess our sins He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins"..
This is a better translation,"We know that anyone born of God does not continue to sin; the One who was born of God keeps them safe, and the evil one cannot harm them." NIV
Ok so I guess that means that God does not prevent a child of God from sinning. What does it mean that God keeps them safe and the devil cannot harm them? There are different instances of the Bible where fallen men were given to the devil for the destruction of the flesh and yet they were still considered children of God? Right? I know I should not be reading the Bible logically but spiritually. However, it is very hard for me not to see contradictions or at least I am not getting what God is trying to say. Its not like mathematics when 1 + 1 = 2 as I wish it were
Jesus said, "I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand." Jn 10:28
I think this is what John is talking about, the evil one does not touch him.
We suffer trials. We stumble in sins. But God knows our hearts. He is the only one who knows who is struggling and who is just enjoying sin.
But you are right, it is spiritually discerned
Yet we do speak wisdom among those who are mature; a wisdom, however, not of this age nor of the rulers of this age, who are passing away; 7 but we speak God's wisdom in a mystery, the hidden wisdom which God predestined before the ages to our glory; 8 the wisdom which none of the rulers of this age has understood; for if they had understood it they would not have crucified the Lord of glory; 9 but just as it is written,
"Things which eye has not seen and ear has not heard,
And which have not entered the heart of man,
All that God has prepared for those who love Him."
For to us God revealed them through the Spirit; for the Spirit searches all things, even the depths of God. 11 For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so the thoughts of God no one knows except the Spirit of God. 12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, so that we may know the things freely given to us by God, 13 which things we also speak, not in words taught by human wisdom, but in those taught by the Spirit, combining spiritual thoughts with spiritual words. 1 Cor 2
But that doessnt mean we should set our mind aside. The truth is, prayer and meditation are the most powerful means of understanding available to us. The Lamp of the Lord shines in us and illuminates meaning and context. As we become like little children before Him(humble, trusting) complecities resolve into simplicities- primarily that God loves us, He forgives us, and He sent Jesus to bring us home to Him.
The journey was never promised to be easy, until we take His yoke upon s, at which point the Spirit will undertake dor us in ways we could not previously conceive of.
IMO the way we take His yoke upon us is to offer ourselves to Him and trust thata He will teach us. There are times that seem like crossing a desert wilderness, when he is wasting some of the things that make us less ueseful as disciples. Those things are different in us all, but as He resolves our inner conflicts we come out of the desert knowing Him personally and deeply and able to assist someone who is also wandering in a desert land.
Sometimes He can speak a word that changes many things in a moment, a twinkling of an eye.
Always, he is loving us.
Quote from: Seth on June 26, 2015, 06:54:50 PM
Very well, then make your calling and election sure. I don't claim a crown until the race is finished.
I dont think claiming a crown and knowing you are a child of God are the same thing. Crowns arent claimed, they are given.
"Blessed is the man who perserveres under trial for after he has overcome he will receive the crown of life"
As we perservere under trial we are given more life. (To him who has more shall be given). If we do not perservere we are still His children, but we will suffer loss, such as losing ones reward but being saved as through fire- the fire being the sowing and reaping consequences of not enduring that which is sent to perfect us(be not amazed if a great diversity of trials comes upon you, it is for the perfectingof your faith, the trial of your faith is more precious than gold tried in the fire).
One more trip around the mountain so to speak :o)
I like Peter's saying.... After you have suffered a little while God Himself will also strengthen, confirm and establish you.
For me, knowing I am His child, that He will never leave me or forsake me, is the foundatinal assurance that grace has given me to stand on. Defensive weapons against the arrows of the adversary, the accuser of the brethren. The shield of faith. The helmet of salvation.
QuoteI dont think claiming a crown and knowing you are a child of God are the same thing. Crowns arent claimed, they are given.
Well essentially both are given, but those who recieve the crown are chosen before hand to succeed so that at the end of the race, God can reveal that is was by his grace, not their own power that they received it.
At the end of the day for me, anyone can claim they are a child of God, but the Bible defines them through their fruit. In other words, just because someone says they are, doesn't make it so.
For instance, the adversary may say, "God doesnt love you, you did or do that or whatever."
The reply being(agree quickly with thine adversary lest he deliver you to the judge and the judge deliver you to the bailiff), "I did do that and I do this, but I confess this before Him, He forgives me, and I will overcome by His grace."(If we confess our sins He is faithful to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness)
The strength to overcome rises out of confidence in God's love and good will towards us, even if we are failing.
12If we endure, we will also reign with Him; If we deny Him, He also will deny us; 13If we are faithless, He remains faithful, for He cannot deny Himself.
I would paraphrae, or amplify the above verse like this.....
If we perservere we will reign in life, having received the crown of life.... if we hold back(our souls) from Him, He will hold back(righteousness peace and joy in the Holy Spirit) from us, if we are faithless(inconsistent, lacking commitment, fearful) He will not be so towards us, because He is love, and He cannot stop loving us.
QuoteThe reply being(agree quickly with thine adversary lest he deliver you to the judge and the judge deliver you to the bailiff), "I did do that and I do this, but I confess this before Him, He forgives me, and I will overcome by His grace."(If we confess our sins He is faithful to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness)
Yes this is key. I agree.
Sure Seth, but we arent talking about "anyone can say they are a child of God".
We are talking about, "Can a child of God know that he is one and rest in that assurance"
I think Paul assures every child of God that they can, by the Spirit of adoption that cries out from their heart, "Daddy, Father", in Romans 8.
Yes I agree
Is this called skip posting, lol :skittles:
:laughing7:
You were looking for any reason to use that emoticon.
:laugh:
Quote from: eaglesway on June 27, 2015, 08:34:14 AMBut that doessnt mean we should set our mind aside. The truth is, prayer and meditation are the most powerful means of understanding available to us. The Lamp of the Lord shines in us and illuminates meaning and context. As we become like little children before Him(humble, trusting) complecities resolve into simplicities- primarily that God loves us, He forgives us, and He sent Jesus to bring us home to Him.
The journey was never promised to be easy, until we take His yoke upon s, at which point the Spirit will undertake dor us in ways we could not previously conceive of.
IMO the way we take His yoke upon us is to offer ourselves to Him and trust thata He will teach us.
With all due respect, it sounds like a work thing and I don't see grace in any of this. I get that prayer is a powerful thing but it is still a work you have to do. Also, it sounds like we have to make the first step before God changes us. I just don't see how a despicable and evil men like myself would do do any of the things that you have mentioned. The Bible says that Christ will draw all men onto himself. So is it God that causes us to take his yoke, God that causes us to pray and meditate, God that causes us to not sin. Or is that we his yoke or we pray and meditate and we do not sin. Where exactly is God's power in all of this? Can't someone boast when they say I prayed and mediate a lot and that is why I understand or I took his yoke upon myself that is why I have the Spirit with me?
To Aerex:
This is the way I picture it, sometimes.
God is knocking at the door of our souls. We can choose to open the door or not. It is a choice we make, not a work we do. As a Lutheran, I was taught, we can only fulfill that, with the help of the Holy Spirit, as we are dead in our sins, and can do absolutely nothing good, on our own, but say'no'.
Once we open the door, we have allowed God entrance into our will. We can surrender all, or part, as well. For all of us, there are areas of our life, that are very hard to let go of our control of, IMO. As if we really knew what we were doing, anyway! This, as I see it, is one of the hardest things for us to do, as humans, but, in a sense, it is really all we can do, without God's strength, for if we allow Him to be at the helm of our lives, then we will do His will. I also believe that it is a tussle, all of our lives, because as humans, we always will inch our way to try to take back some of the control. I believe sin is when we don't do God's will. And I believe we will always struggle with this, as sons and daughters of Adam and Eve: to give up our own desires and wants, in exchange for His.
I look at faith as the 'seed' that allows God into the 'front door' of our lives. Trust then becomes the giving over of all the various aspects of our life, to Him, because we come to acknowledge that He, and not us, can and will do a 'better job' of directing our paths. We come to realize that we will truly be who we are and were meant to be, when we surrender to Him. And, He pours out His grace, continually, to help us and give us His strength, for, we don't have it, on our own, to do His will.
We can do 'good works' then, but not of our power or will, but of His.
"I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing." John 15:5
In a way, we just have to not say NO to God. He is knocking and asking all the time, to enter every one of our lives. We just have to leave the door open!
This is my favorite Bible quote:
Proverbs 3: 5 - 6
5Trust in the LORD with all your heart And do not lean on your own understanding. 6In all your ways acknowledge Him, And He will make your paths straight....
Hope you enjoyed my analogy, Aerex!
:gsmile:
Quote from: Aerex on June 27, 2015, 12:17:16 PM
With all due respect, it sounds like a work thing and I don't see grace in any of this.
Grace is favor. It is given from someone, it is either merited or unmerited. The giver of grace can set stipulations for the receiving of the grace or grace can just be given because that is the way the giver is.
Parents favor their children.
God did not ask any of us if it was ok to send his Son as an example of His love. God favored us all with the way to heaven(present heaven), in His son Jesus Christ. The grace was set before the foundation of the world, non of us can earn that.
Quote from: Aerex on June 27, 2015, 12:17:16 PM
I get that prayer is a powerful thing but it is still a work you have to do.
It can be for sure. Many do take pride in their prayer life, I'm not saying you are wrong.
When I pray, "God I just don't understand", I'm coming to a place where I believe answers are because I am humbled by my circumstance. I can't glory in the fact that I need some help and went to a place where it was provided. I'm a beggar, But God stands me up and says that this grace was always there for me........I am compelled to love God for His love, and not my searching.
Quote from: Aerex on June 27, 2015, 12:17:16 PM
Also, it sounds like we have to make the first step before God changes us.
I can just go back to my first finding of this grace. I was confused, and filled with many questions and fear. The first step was always there............God set it in motion. My step was as a hurt child looking for help. I was pushed the point of asking for help and healing, and I was set up for that. That is the way that I was made by the condition of the world, my environment, and everything that drove me the point of asking for help. I can take no glory for being a helpless being in a rough world.
Again God saved(healed) me over much time.
Quote from: Aerex on June 27, 2015, 12:17:16 PM
I just don't see how a despicable and evil men like myself would do do any of the things that you have mentioned.
You are not a despicable and evil man, you are a man who is seeking answers. God did not make man despicable and evil, and he does not see man as despicable and evil. Sure, sin was in the world from the beginning, it was set up that way. You are identifying yourself with the sin instead of the man who desires to do good. The will is in you to do good, where did that come from? Were you born with it? Is it in all men?
Quote from: Aerex on June 27, 2015, 12:17:16 PM
The Bible says that Christ will draw all men onto himself. So is it God that causes us to take his yoke, God that causes us to pray and meditate, God that causes us to not sin.
Yes it is God. How so? We are thinking beings, created for fellowship with our creator. "Taking the yoke" was offered to a tired, haggard, bunch of abused children. We take a yoke because we believe that it will help us to be what we want to be. We unite with something that is pleasing to us.
There is always the temptation to take credit for being so spiritual. Taking credit is falling short of the truth though. The truth is that it was there for us when we needed it, and we were brought to the place of desiring it.
I got tired of Christianity and walked away from it, I was brought back to the place of desiring it again
The story of the prodigal comes to mind. When the son desired to walk away, his desire was granted. When the son desired to come back, broken, and worn, he was welcomed back with full sonship.
Quote from: Aerex on June 27, 2015, 12:17:16 PM
Or is that we his yoke or we pray and meditate and we do not sin.
Sin is something that we need healed of. Falling short or missing the mark is not pleasurable, but we do it often and well. I don't go to the place of healing because I am so smart, I go there because I am in need.
Quote from: Aerex on June 27, 2015, 12:17:16 PM
Where exactly is God's power in all of this?
God healed us, and that is all His glory and desire. How hard are we pushed? I 'm being pushed right now in an area that I don't know if I'm able to endure it...............but I know where the power to endure is. My experience gives me hope, that even in this new struggle, the place of God's power, the simplicity of faith, will yield the reward of victory. "I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me".
Quote from: Aerex on June 27, 2015, 12:17:16 PM
Can't someone boast when they say I prayed and mediate a lot and that is why I understand or I took his yoke upon myself that is why I have the Spirit with me?
Yes they can and often do. That is not the nature of the truth. When pride comes to us as it often does, a wake up call is not far behind..........pride comes before the fall. That is all in the loving discipline of our Father. We learn to thank God for our pride trips and the discipline that brought us back to where the true fruit is.
I love what you alll shared with Aerex .
and that could be and would apply to anyone of us .
For me , Just having Aerex here was Gods own doing for Aerex own benefit .
He loves you Aerex ........
What drawed you to come here Aerex ?
The Awesome thing is we will all know , just how very much in the end
Some are just ''getting glimpses'' now ...
I am so thankful for my brothers and sister in Christ
and you are among them all Aerex ..
Quote from: Aerex on June 27, 2015, 12:17:16 PM
Quote from: eaglesway on June 27, 2015, 08:34:14 AMBut that doessnt mean we should set our mind aside. The truth is, prayer and meditation are the most powerful means of understanding available to us. The Lamp of the Lord shines in us and illuminates meaning and context. As we become like little children before Him(humble, trusting) complecities resolve into simplicities- primarily that God loves us, He forgives us, and He sent Jesus to bring us home to Him.
The journey was never promised to be easy, until we take His yoke upon s, at which point the Spirit will undertake dor us in ways we could not previously conceive of.
IMO the way we take His yoke upon us is to offer ourselves to Him and trust thata He will teach us.
With all due respect, it sounds like a work thing and I don't see grace in any of this. I get that prayer is a powerful thing but it is still a work you have to do. Also, it sounds like we have to make the first step before God changes us. I just don't see how a despicable and evil men like myself would do do any of the things that you have mentioned. The Bible says that Christ will draw all men onto himself. So is it God that causes us to take his yoke, God that causes us to pray and meditate, God that causes us to not sin. Or is that we his yoke or we pray and meditate and we do not sin. Where exactly is God's power in all of this? Can't someone boast when they say I prayed and mediate a lot and that is why I understand or I took his yoke upon myself that is why I have the Spirit with me?
Here is God's power in it, especially concerning Grace:
Titus 2:11-14
11 For
the grace of God that bringeth salvation/deliverance/healing hath appeared to all men,
12 Teaching (paiduo- chastening) us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;
13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.
That's why I think it is a shame that "works" and "salvation by grace" are thought of as mutually exclusive concepts. The grace of God chastens us to walk differently and that is our deliverance from our former walk.
It's 100% Grace at all times.
Amen , you don't really LIVE until you really believe all the good and all the perfect done is GOD HIMSELF , Doing for you and bringing you along
Seeing the evil and doing the evil , just makes it harder for us to UNDERSTAND the goodness of God
I have always said the flesh is a heavy weight and dark covering that keeps us bound to death ...
Its the Spirit and Light in GODS LOVE it that frees us from such misery , Sending Gods Son , IS PROOF OF THIS TRUTH
Grace is always Gods gift though the Holy Spirit , that is why we are to never speak against, the very thing that does save you ....
GOD is now seeking such to worship Him in Spirit and truth
GOD does not give up on us , it is us whom give up on God and to our own detriment . :sigh:
Something you can experience NOW IS Knowing Gods pure holy love for all mankind !!
Quote from: Dandelion on June 27, 2015, 05:40:41 PM
To Aerex:
This is the way I picture it, sometimes.
God is knocking at the door of our souls. We can choose to open the door or not. It is a choice we make, not a work we do. As a Lutheran, I was taught, we can only fulfill that, with the help of the Holy Spirit, as we are dead in our sins, and can do absolutely nothing good, on our own, but say'no'.
Once we open the door, we have allowed God entrance into our will. We can surrender all, or part, as well. For all of us, there are areas of our life, that are very hard to let go of our control of, IMO. As if we really knew what we were doing, anyway! This, as I see it, is one of the hardest things for us to do, as humans, but, in a sense, it is really all we can do, without God's strength, for if we allow Him to be at the helm of our lives, then we will do His will. I also believe that it is a tussle, all of our lives, because as humans, we always will inch our way to try to take back some of the control. I believe sin is when we don't do God's will. And I believe we will always struggle with this, as sons and daughters of Adam and Eve: to give up our own desires and wants, in exchange for His.
I look at faith as the 'seed' that allows God into the 'front door' of our lives. Trust then becomes the giving over of all the various aspects of our life, to Him, because we come to acknowledge that He, and not us, can and will do a 'better job' of directing our paths. We come to realize that we will truly be who we are and were meant to be, when we surrender to Him. And, He pours out His grace, continually, to help us and give us His strength, for, we don't have it, on our own, to do His will.
We can do 'good works' then, but not of our power or will, but of His.
"I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing." John 15:5
In a way, we just have to not say NO to God. He is knocking and asking all the time, to enter every one of our lives. We just have to leave the door open!
This is my favorite Bible quote:
Proverbs 3: 5 - 6
5Trust in the LORD with all your heart And do not lean on your own understanding. 6In all your ways acknowledge Him, And He will make your paths straight....
Hope you enjoyed my analogy, Aerex!
:gsmile:
:dsunny:
Awesome
Quote from: Seth on June 24, 2015, 10:48:43 PM
Quotewhat about David? adultery and murder..yet the anointed of the Lord..was David righteous? or fallible?
and severely corrected.[sin reigned over him through the lust of his eyes]
David is a great example. Why was he SEVERELY corrected? Was it because he didn't believe in God? How far did his imputed righteousness (if he had that pre-New Covenant) carry him seeing that he lost his son?
"He will judge each man according to his deeds" Romans 2:6
The important thing to consider is that all Abraham did was believe God and God reckoned righteousness to him.
And Paul in Romans 4 said this was written because of those who are about to be believing God. They too are reckoned righteous.
God loves those He chastens. Being declared righteous does not mean we do not need neeful loving correction.
Well, I believe all correction by God is loving, whether or not someone is a believer. But, what is pretty clear to me, by taking in the whole scope of the book of Romans (not just a few verses of one chapter), and all Paul's other writings, along with the book of Acts, is that some people who believe in Jesus will face more than gentle correction, but wrath and indignation depending on whether or not they proceed with pride or humility. Nobody is perfect, but I believe that there is a difference between branches being pruned and branches being cut off.
I believe if a man is going to have faith, but he is kicked out of the church to be destroyed by Satan for sleeping with his father's wife, his righteousness that you say he has, is pretty much academic at that point. It didn't save him from Satan as he bore bad fruit. Eventually, everyone will be saved, and there is no hell, so none of this is evidence of UNloving correction. But it's still pretty harsh correction to be handed over to Satan, imo.
Again, I believe this is more understandable when we factor in the Hebrew understanding of faith, which is faithfulness. Abraham was faithful without a Law. Paul mentions circumcision 7 times in 4 verses in Romans 4. Abraham wouldn't have been turned over to Satan, because he had ENUMAH, faithfulness, which means belief and obedience, a firm planting, without needing a Law.
What we believe affects what we do, how we think, and most importantly, I think, opens the door for God to come in.
"It is God who is in you to will and to work of His good pleasure."
"Christ in you, the hope of glory"
"He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus."
:dsunny:
The soul/person will KNOW.....simply KNOW. When a soul is drawn, by the Father to Jesus the Savior......whatever doubt that may rise, is squelched by the Faith of Jesus which is embraced by and to the faith given. I believe :2c::HeartThrob: :dsunny:
Quote from: eaglesway on June 30, 2015, 04:54:33 AM
What we believe affects what we do, how we think, and most importantly, I think, opens the door for God to come in.
"It is God who is in you to will and to work of His good pleasure."
"Christ in you, the hope of glory"
"He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus."
Good point ew,
What you identify with makes a big difference on what we do and how we think.
I often hear Christians say that they are sinners...........but Paul wrote the saints.
Sin conscious and identifying with sin or Christ consciousness and identifying with His righteousness. Christ or Adam.
God did not create man in sin, but the law of sin is always in our members. Identifying with the created man, who seeks God, was created by God, and finds his home in God is the man that we identify with. Lost Adam is found, cleaned up, and made a saint, in Christ.......holy and without blame.
Christ consciousness.
The best use of our mind is to be conscious of Christ and take pleasure in knowing Jesus ,did what we could not do.( for us )
Here is an example of Enumah from the Psalm 32 that Paul quotes in Romans 4:
Psalm 32
1Blessed is the one
whose transgressions are forgiven,
whose sins are covered.
2Blessed is the one
whose sin the Lord does not count against them
and in whose spirit is no deceit.
3When I kept silent,
my bones wasted away
through my groaning all day long.
4For day and night
your hand was heavy on me;
my strength was sapped
as in the heat of summer.b
5Then I acknowledged my sin to you
and did not cover up my iniquity.
I said, "I will confess
my transgressions to the Lord."
And you forgave
the guilt of my sin.
6Therefore let all the faithful pray to you
while you may be found;
surely the rising of the mighty waters
will not reach them.
7You are my hiding place;
you will protect me from trouble
and surround me with songs of deliverance.
8I will instruct you and teach you in the way you should go;
I will counsel you with my loving eye on you.
9Do not be like the horse or the mule,
which have no understanding
but must be controlled by bit and bridle
or they will not come to you.
10Many are the woes of the wicked,
but the Lord's unfailing love
surrounds the one who trusts in him.
11Rejoice in the Lord and be glad, you righteous;
sing, all you who are upright in heart!
Paul's use of this Psalm in Romans 4 makes it clear to me that he is emphasizing, to the legalistic crowd, that when someone puts their trust in Christ all their sins are forgiven. Obviously, if your past sins are forgiven, you stand upright, a clean slate, righteous. But, being a Jew he did not separate faith from the walk of deliverance, which is what enumah is, as opposed to our Western view of belief.
The enumah concept is ALL OVER that psalm. Confession leads to forgiveness, but the truly faithful will have an upright heart and a spirit without deceit and is not like the horse or mule which must be controlled by bit or bridle.
This is why James talked about faith and works (not works of the Law) as being inseparable, faith dead without love. The Hebrew understanding didn't divide obedience and faith. That psalm that Paul is quoting doesn't separate them either. In fact, that psalm diminishes the "bit and bridle" aspect of obedience, while emphasizing obedience being the natural outcome of a change of heart.
The FIRST confession is that Jesus is Lord.
We are not saved by works. We are saved FOR works.
For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them. Eph 2:10
It's all a question of opportunity cost. If you're doing one thing, you're not doing another. We are, in my opinion, saved by completed faith alone.
If Rahab hadn't acted on her faith, she would have been a dead believer, imo
As I see it, completed faith is a heart connection with Jesus Christ. IMO, as long as that is real we are already "saved" by being in the Vine of life. Anything good comes from maintaining that connection.
Quote from: Seth on July 01, 2015, 08:57:15 AM
It's all a question of opportunity cost. If you're doing one thing, you're not doing another. We are, in my opinion, saved by completed faith alone.
Completed faith?
Saved only after we prove it?
There is an interesting phrase used often in the bible, "The faith of Jesus Christ", or His faith is what saves.
We are brought to the place of putting our faith in Him that is faithful.......the accomplished WORK of Jesus Christ is what saved, saves, and will save us.
Here is a good article on it.
http://scholarscorner.com/content/justified-faith-jesus-christ-not-ours
Quote from: ed on July 01, 2015, 03:07:13 PM
Quote from: Seth on July 01, 2015, 08:57:15 AM
It's all a question of opportunity cost. If you're doing one thing, you're not doing another. We are, in my opinion, saved by completed faith alone.
Completed faith?
Saved only after we prove it?
There is an interesting phrase used often in the bible, "The faith of Jesus Christ", or His faith is what saves.
We are brought to the place of putting our faith in Him that is faithful.......the accomplished WORK of Jesus Christ is what saved, saves, and will save us.
Here is a good article on it.
http://scholarscorner.com/content/justified-faith-jesus-christ-not-ours
Well according to Apostle James, faith without works (not works of the Law) is dead, and Rahab was justified by works. So either Apostle James was right, or he was not right.
So, yes I believe that we are saved by completed faith alone, and that BOTH the faith and the completion of faith are from Christ and not our own.
BTW, the fact that it's not our own faith or our own completion of that faith is why I believe Paul said that some were predestined to be conformed to the image of Christ, not just predestined to believe, (Romans 8). He gives the faith, he does the completing.
When James literally says "you see, a man is justified by works and not by faith alone." I think you guys must think I'm just inventing that out of whole cloth. It's in your Bibles.
I know how the two-evangel folks explain it, but I can respect that they acknowledge the words are there. They just say those words are for someone else. The only other explanation I tend to see is to generalize his words to say that he just means works are good sometimes.
"A man...is justified...by works...and not...by faith...alone" - your Bible (i.e. not just Seth)
I challenge each of you in this conversation to say the words "a man justified by works and not by faith alone" out loud verbatim, with your voice. It's in your Bibles so there should be nothing wrong with saying it out loud.
:iagree:
James 2
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
Yes it is in there.
And Ed, I believe if you walked into almost any church and spoke that sentence out loud, you'd get alot of strange looks and a hundred reasons from elsewhere in the same Bible why they think that sentence is wrong.
Completed faith saves before any works are done by connection to Christ. The works will naturally proceed from the connection. All James is saying is that if nothing comes out of the faith, it is "in vain"- not real, or empty.
He is speaking of the evidence that our faith is real and using "justified" in the sense of "valid" or "real". He isnt teaching salvation by works. He is teachingvthatvsalvation is evidenced by works and fruit, same as Paul did.
Only that James defines completed faith as when works follow faith. Left unfollowed by works, faith is alone.
Seriously, I know that the sentence "by works a man is justified, and not by faith only" is difficult and not what we were taught and is certainly a hard pill to swallow for many Christians,
JAMES SAYS IT
I WILL SAY IT
"by works a man is justified and not by faith only."
This does not disagree with Paul who said that a man is not justified by works of the LAW.
So, if that sentence is not part of another evangel for other people, then we should have no shame in saying it verbatim "by works a man is justified and not by faith only"
If we cannot say those words directly out of the Bible then I think something is either wrong with that sentence, and should be taken out of the Bible, or there is something wrong with our own understanding, in my opinion.
Quote from: eaglesway on July 01, 2015, 08:38:45 PM
Completed faith saves before any works are done by connection to Christ. The works will naturally proceed from the connection. All James is saying is that if nothing comes out of the faith, it is "in vain"- not real, or empty.
He is speaking of the evidence that our faith is real and using "justified" in the sense of "valid" or "real". He isnt teaching salvation by works. He is teachingvthatvsalvation is evidenced by works and fruit, same as Paul did.
Exactly! Faith without works isn't real faith!
BTW, it does not say "a man's faith is justified by works and not faith only."
It says A MAN is justified by works and not faith only.
As James said, show me your faith without works. I will show you my faith by my works. Nevertheless, because of the legalism of men Paul made the distinction about where faith saves,and it is an important distinction to be maintained. Faith saves before any works are evidence. The evidencevwill follow if faith is real becausevGod is love and love makes a new creature, created to bear the fruit of the connection to Christ, the tru vine.
And AFTER faith comes...A man is justified by works and not by faith ALONE.
That sentence is true. The word justified means "righteous"
Quote from: Seth on July 01, 2015, 08:45:16 PM
Only that James defines completed faith as when works follow faith. Left unfollowed by works, faith is alone.
Seriously, I know that the sentence "by works a man is justified, and not by faith only" is difficult and not what we were taught and is certainly a hard pill to swallow for many Christians,
JAMES SAYS IT
I WILL SAY IT
"by works a man is justified and not by faith only."
This does not disagree with Paul who said that a man is not justified by works of the LAW.
So, if that sentence is not part of another evangel for other people, then we should have no shame in saying it verbatim "by works a man is justified and not by faith only"
If we cannot say those words directly out of the Bible then I think something is either wrong with that sentence, and should be taken out of the Bible, or there is something wrong with our own understanding, in my opinion.
So do you work your way to justification?
:winkgrin:
Nope, Jesus does it within you. His sheep hear his voice and they follow.
BTW, I don't think that means auditory, but that his ways become their ways naturally, if repentance is real.
Quote from: Tony N on June 29, 2015, 10:28:57 PM
The important thing to consider is that all Abraham did was believe God and God reckoned righteousness to him.
And Paul in Romans 4 said this was written because of those who are about to be believing God. They too are reckoned righteous.
God loves those He chastens. Being declared righteous does not mean we do not need neeful loving correction.
James 2 has the same quote...........
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith,
Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
I could appear that Abraham had to prove his faith, I'm not saying that is what it is saying, I've never really looked into this before. Just wondering your take on it.
:thumbsup:
My take is that it says "the scripture was fulfilled"
In other words, it goes back to what I was saying that the Hebrew understanding did not separate obedience from belief. So, Abraham believed (enumah - was faithful to) God and that enumah was fulfilled by what he did later. It's almost like a prophecy. If Abraham truly has faithfulness, he would obey God about Isaac, and when he did, thus the scripture was fulfilled that he had enumah, faithfulness, a firm planting.
Paul's use of the same scripture reveals righteousness apart from the LAW. Abraham was faithful without the LAW of Moses.
By grace you are saved thru faith and that not of yourselves it is the gift of God lest anyman should boast.
For what Paul says to b tru and what James says also to be tru.....which they must or the scriptures r broken.... Salvation comes by reconciliation at the cross.....as when the Israelitesbsaw the serpent on a stick and there wound was healed,Christ crucified.
The works come as a result of the healing, the reconciliation, the salvation.
We are created in Christ Jesus for good wirks, but it is out of the new creation, which must come first, Christ in u thbhope of glory, that they come forth from. It is God who is in u to will and to do of His good pleasure.
For me this is simple and it is clear from the whole new testament context in a topical exegesis. That is why we do not hav just James or just Paul. There is a cloud of witnesses.
A good question is this. What works will the reconciled of the Day do, beyond bowing bfore Him, to receive their reconciliation?
I think the abswer is clearly, none.
Also. James must b read as a letter. Not a verse. Their were peoplevseeking and hoarding wealth. Ignoring the needs of their brothers and sisters. He was rebuking these believers, much as Jesus did in Matt 25. He called them, as belivers to repent and to produce works in keepingvwith their testimony. He called them adulterers and adulteresses, much as Jesus did in His letters to the churches in Rev. He was not making a doctrinal statement about initial salvation. The context is critical too understading what he was saying and why.
Quote from: eagleswayBy grace you are saved thru faith and that not of yourselves it is the gift of God lest anyman should boast.
That's correct, so that when Paul says that Grace brings salvation, chastening us to abandon ungodliness, we can know that abandoning ungodliness is not a work that comes from us, but from God within us to save from sin.
QuoteSalvation comes by reconciliation at the cross.....as when the Israelitesbsaw the serpent on a stick and there wound was healed,Christ crucified.
According to the scripture, salvation comes by his LIFE reconciliation by his death.
Quote from: eagleswayThe works come as a result of the healing, the reconciliation, the salvation.
We are created in Christ Jesus for good wirks, but it is out of the new creation, which must come first, Christ in u thbhope of glory, that they come forth from. It is God who is in u to will and to do of His good pleasure.
For me this is simple and it is clear from the whole new testament context in a topical exegesis. That is why we do not hav just James or just Paul. There is a cloud of witnesses.
That's right, and that is why the sentence "a man is justified by works and not by faith alone" does not contradict anything Paul said, because Paul was talking about works of the Law, and James was not.
QuoteAlso. James must b read as a letter. Not a verse. Their were peoplevseeking and hoarding wealth. Ignoring the needs of their brothers and sisters. He was rebuking these believers, much as Jesus did in Matt 25. He called them, as belivers to repent and to produce works in keepingvwith their testimony. He called them adulterers and adulteresses, much as Jesus did in His letters to the churches in Rev. He was not making a doctrinal statement about initial salvation. The context is critical too understading what he was saying and why.
I agree with all that context. And James was teaching those who were hoarding wealth and ignoring the needs of brothers and sisters not to falsely assume that their faith alone made them righteous.
in my opinion, if we try to separate belief from obedience we are getting away from the core understanding of how faith should be understood through the Hebrew and that will naturally set the scriptures in contradiction. James was telling them not to do that.
Well said eaglesway and seth............enjoyed that.
:gimmefive:
Reconciliation is the same as salvation to me. It is the point of contact through which the connection is established and life enters in- which is salvation, in total. The works flow out of it. We are to exhort one another to love and good works. We are created for good works. We are not saved by good works, but if we are saved good works will come forth as the fruit of the Spirit begins to show, which should be right away- but some who are bound, as Lazarus was when Christ raised him, need the help of disciples to unwrap their grave clothes. These people, who in my opinion are saved but bound, may not appear to be saved, but are. I was one of these during my first couple of years as a Christian.
I was saved by a sovereign revelation of Christ crucified.
I had never been to church. I had never heard the name of Jesus as anything other than a curse word. I was a drug addict. I was heavily involved in metaphysics and sorcery and eastern philosophy. I had never read the Bible other than Revelations once on an acid trip.
I was saved the instant I was reconciled when I beheld Christ on the cross. The blood was applied. I wept. I knew NOTHING ELSE.
Only then did I begn to read the word, and the Holy Spirit began to teach me, and I began to get some strength and some victory.
But i did not work to get saved or reconciled and my salvation was secure from that very moment. I knew it intrinsicly.
I also think it is an error to say Paul was speaking to the Law. He was writing the Ephesians when he said,
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
There is no discourse about legalism AT ALL in the epistle to the Ephesians, they were a prototypical Gentile church, mature, moving into the man-child(Eph 4)..
But....Paul makes it clear, as James was also saying imo, and as I have been saying - we are not saved by works, we are saved for good works. It is all there in one place in Eph 2:8-10, simple and clear.
Awesome testimony John.
Faith that works.
QuoteReconciliation is the same as salvation to me. It is the point of contact through which the connection is established and life enters in- which is salvation, in total. The works flow out of it. We are to exhort one another to love and good works. We are created for good works. We are not saved by good works
First, Paul says that we were reconciled by his death and much more so saved by his life. So, if they are the same thing, he should have said, we were reconciled and saved by his death.
Second, in James 2, he says
James 2
14What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can that faith save/heal/deliver him? 15If a brother or sister is without clothing and in need of daily food, 16and one of you says to them, "Go in peace, be warmed and be filled," and yet you do not give them what is necessary for their body, what use is that?
17Even so faith, if it has no works, is dead, being by itself.Faith without works is dead, and if faith saves us, then it must be ALIVE not dead. James' is providing an example of being saved from selfishness by not being selfish, which is itself beyond simply having belief, but is deliverance through having a changed walk.
QuoteI was saved the instant I was reconciled when I beheld Christ on the cross. The blood was applied. I wept. I knew NOTHING ELSE.
But that's not what James is talking about in my opinion. After weeping and and beholding the cross, you turned around and hoarded money and were selfish, then that faith would be dead. After the revelation of the cross, the fruit needs to grow for salvation to be made complete, imo.
Quote from: eagleswayThere is no discourse about legalism AT ALL in the epistle to the Ephesians, they were a prototypical Gentile church, mature, moving into the man-child(Eph 4)..
But....Paul makes it clear, as James was also saying imo, and as I have been saying - we are not saved by works, we are saved for good works. It is all there in one place in Eph 2:8-10, simple and clear.
I was talking about Romans 4, when Paul says he is talking about justification apart from works, he is talking about justified apart from works of the Law.
In Ephesians 2, it proves the point that James is making.
Ephesians 2
2 And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, 2 in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience. 3 Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest. 4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, So, when James says
"A man is justified/righteous by works and not by faith alone" that is what he is talking about. The works are NOT our own, but they do cause us to be healed/delivered. Being joined together with Christ means that we "FORMERLY walked" in sin because we have been joined to Christ. Being joined to Christ causes the ACT of stopping the walk according to the course of this world. That is the finishing of our faith which is our salvation.
Titus 3
3 For we also once were foolish ourselves, disobedient, deceived, enslaved to various lusts and pleasures, spending our life in malice and envy, hateful, hating one another. 4 But when the kindness of God our Savior and His love for mankind appeared, 5 He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit,We can see here that it is not our righteous deeds that saved us, but HIS righteous deeds. We were saved by the washing and renewing of the Spirit, and that resulted in being ONCE disobedient, but no longer. The WASHING led to the OBEDIENCE and thus salvation/deliverance from sin.
That is why, I believe, James says "what good is it when a man has faith but no works, can that faith save him?"
No it can't. If it doesn't result in being FORMERLY DISOBEDIENT then salvation from disobedience has not been realized. That is why Rahab is the example James uses. He deliberately uses Abraham and Rahab. Abraham was born before the Law, and Rahab was a gentile. He chose two people OUTSIDE the LAW to make his point.
If Rahab would have believed but not acted on her belief, she would have not been saved from death.
Quote from: eaglesway on July 01, 2015, 08:38:45 PM
Completed faith saves before any works are done by connection to Christ. The works will naturally proceed from the connection. All James is saying is that if nothing comes out of the faith, it is "in vain"- not real, or empty.
He is speaking of the evidence that our faith is real and using "justified" in the sense of "valid" or "real". He isnt teaching salvation by works. He is teaching that salvation is evidenced by works and fruit, same as Paul did.
Yes, I would often try to explain this to people, myself. The important point is that our source of strength, to do the works, comes from God and not ourselves.
Quote from: Dandelion on July 02, 2015, 08:27:23 AM
Quote from: eaglesway on July 01, 2015, 08:38:45 PM
Completed faith saves before any works are done by connection to Christ. The works will naturally proceed from the connection. All James is saying is that if nothing comes out of the faith, it is "in vain"- not real, or empty.
He is speaking of the evidence that our faith is real and using "justified" in the sense of "valid" or "real". He isnt teaching salvation by works. He is teaching that salvation is evidenced by works and fruit, same as Paul did.
Yes, I would often try to explain this to people, myself. The important point is that our source of strength, to do the works, comes from God and not ourselves.
I agree.
Wouldn't it be fair to say that basics of the faith is to believe on the Lord Jesus (through the gift of faith in Him) and then follow Him in surrender and obedience as He provides the strength to do so?
Looking to Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith.
Seth
The point you are missing is where the good works originate. They originate with reconciliation. Reconciliation allows His life to save, because it opens the door, connects the branch to the vine. Reconciliation saves as well as His life saves. This is the point of Colossians 1 15-20. All will be reconciled by the blood of His cross. Therefore all will be saved by His life. Two sides of one coin- not separate or opposing things.
If you chop up these elements of one salvation, one faith, into little bits, taking individual bverses apart from the rest, you get a skewed picture.
Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, 2through whom also we have obtained our introduction by faith into this grace in which we stand; and we exult in hope of the glory of God....Rom 5:1
I am speaking of the introduction, as is Paul in Ephesians 2(by grace you are saved). James is speaking to disobedient believers who are standing upon the true message of grace to justify their disobedience, and there will always be those who do that.
This doesnt change the fact that salvation is by grace through faith not of works.
Anyone who is reconciled is saved. Reconciliation saves. His life continues to save, and that is Paul's point. He is not setting reconciliation and salvation apart from one another. They are elements of the same thing.
Their is an intial connection by grace through faith not of works. There is a continuing connection through which His life continues to save. If the connection continues we bear fruit- that is where the good works come from.
I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing. John 15
There it is in a nutshell really. Apart from me you can do nothing. Connected to me(abiding in the vine) you will bear fruit, and it will remain(gold silver precious stone).
That intial connection has nothing to do with works. It is by grace, through faith.
But it must be continued in.
And although you were formerly alienated and hostile in mind, engaged in evil deeds, 22 yet He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death, in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach— 23 if indeed you continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel that you have heard, which was proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul, was made a minister. Col 1
Even in your own example, Paul says, "How much more will you be saved through His life. He doesnt say "How much more will you be saved by good works. The life is the source of any works that abide eternally. The works are not the source of the life- they are the evidence of it, and that is James point.
Quote from: jabcat on July 02, 2015, 09:24:01 AM
Quote from: Dandelion on July 02, 2015, 08:27:23 AM
Quote from: eaglesway on July 01, 2015, 08:38:45 PM
Completed faith saves before any works are done by connection to Christ. The works will naturally proceed from the connection. All James is saying is that if nothing comes out of the faith, it is "in vain"- not real, or empty.
He is speaking of the evidence that our faith is real and using "justified" in the sense of "valid" or "real". He isnt teaching salvation by works. He is teaching that salvation is evidenced by works and fruit, same as Paul did.
Yes, I would often try to explain this to people, myself. The important point is that our source of strength, to do the works, comes from God and not ourselves.
I agree.
Wouldn't it be fair to say that basics of the faith is to believe on the Lord Jesus (through the gift of faith in Him) and then follow Him in surrender and obedience as He provides the strength to do so?
Looking to Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith.
Absolutely fair.
Amen!
:thumbsup:
Quote from: eaglesway on July 02, 2015, 09:31:53 AM
Seth
The point you are missing is where the good works originate. They originate with reconciliation. Reconciliation allows His life to save, because it opens the door, connects the branch to the vine. Reconciliation saves as well as His life saves. This is the point of Colossians 1 15-20. All will be reconciled by the blood of His cross. Therefore all will be saved by His life. Two sides of one coin- not separate or opposing things.
If you chop up these elements of one salvation, one faith, into little bits, taking individual bverses apart from the rest, you get a skewed picture.
Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, 2through whom also we have obtained our introduction by faith into this grace in which we stand; and we exult in hope of the glory of God....Rom 5:1
I am speaking of the introduction, as is Paul in Ephesians 2(by grace you are saved). James is speaking to disobedient believers who are standing upon the true message of grace to justify their disobedience, and there will always be those who do that.
This doesnt change the fact that salvation is by grace through faith not of works.
Anyone who is reconciled is saved. Reconciliation saves. His life continues to save, and that is Paul's point. He is not setting reconciliation and salvation apart from one another. They are elements of the same thing.
Their is an intial connection by grace through faith not of works. There is a continuing connection through which His life continues to save. If the connection continues we bear fruit- that is where the good works come from.
I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing. John 15
There it is in a nutshell really. Apart from me you can do nothing. Connected to me(abiding in the vine) you will bear fruit, and it will remain(gold silver precious stone).
That intial connection has nothing to do with works. It is by grace, through faith.
But it must be continued in.
And although you were formerly alienated and hostile in mind, engaged in evil deeds, 22 yet He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death, in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach— 23 if indeed you continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel that you have heard, which was proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul, was made a minister. Col 1
Even in your own example, Paul says, "How much more will you be saved through His life. He doesnt say "How much more will you be saved by good works. The life is the source of any works that abide eternally. The works are not the source of the life- they are the evidence of it, and that is James point.
I am not missing where works originate, they originate from the Holy Spirit. As you have often quoted. It is God in you both to will and to WORK of his good pleasure.
James is not talking about the initial connection. He talked about that in
James 1. For God made us born again by his own will (that's the Spirit) In James 2 he is talking about what happens AFTER you recieve the Spirit. As Paul said, if we have received the Spirit let us also walk by the Spirit.
If a man receives the Spirit but does NOT walk by the spirit he will not be saved from the things he repented of. He will have been forgiven of his past sins, yes, at initial belief, but will not be saved from those things going forward unless he walks by the Spirit.
That is why James says that if they continue to hoard money, faith without works is dead and they will not be righteous just because they believe in God. You can't be greedy and say that you are saved from greed just because you have head knowledge of God. At some point you will need to walk by the Spirit p, not just have the Spirit.
I doubt there is any fundamental disagreement in whether or not we are saved FOR good works. YES, we are saved FOR good works. HOWEVER, I'm sorry to insist on the phraseology that an Apostle uses, "a man is justified/righteous by works and not by faith alone." If those works DON'T FOLLOW, then salvation from former darkness will not be COMPLETED. As John said: do not be deceived, those who do righteousness are righteous even as God is righteous.
Choosing NOT to do something is as much a work as choosing to do something. Choosing NOT to continue being a slave to darkness is no doubt inspired by the Holy Spirit. But without that action, one will remain unsaved/unhealed/undelivered from darkness. That's common sense.
It's just as Hebrews 10 says what happens if we sin willfully after coming to full knowledge of the truth. I believe Peter is CLEAR in 2 Peter 2 that if we return to "our vomit" we become worse off then when we started. THAT is what I believe James 2 is talking about, not initial salvation.
Verbs mean work. If we sin and go to God to confess, that is a verb. Confess is a verb. Go is a verb. It's what you do as a response to belief. If you sin and DON'T do those things...God gives grace to the humble but resists the proud.
I'd say a difference between us is that I will actually use the phraseology Apostle James uses, because I feel if it's good enough for an Apostle it's good enough for me. Nobody on this conversation will say "a man is justified by works and not by faith alone." Why? Who knows. You can't pretend James didn't say it, even if you have a difference of a opinion as to what he meant.
So the question is "a man is justified by works and not by faith alone"
Either that sentence is true or it is false. Or, you believe as the Concordant theology teaches, that's it's true but just meant for someone else.
The thing I find especially ironic is that the book of James doesnt' even contain the most strongly worded warnings about this stuff. Apostle Paul's do.
carm has a good article on this. How it may appear it contradicts but does not. The gist of the article
is that there is a real danger that our faith may become dead. Jesus speaks to the churches in Rev ch 2/3
saying such things as 'I know your deeds" 'your works are not fully accomplished" etc a name you are
alive, but you are dead. You could say He is pruning us to produce more fruit as the vinedresser....
He wants all the fruit of His spirit manifested in us. His prunings/spur us on to branch out and continue
to bear fruit. the well/done and justification I see as the white stone/crown/sit with me/ all the things
that signify His contentment/pleasure and a 'well done"
I have no desire to debate/argue over this. I just thought it might help reconcile Romans and James
if it doesnt suit you..no problem
Quote from: sheila on July 02, 2015, 08:03:27 PM
carm has a good article on this. How it may appear it contradicts but does not. The gist of the article
is that there is a real danger that our faith may become dead. Jesus speaks to the churches in Rev ch 2/3
saying such things as 'I know your deeds" 'your works are not fully accomplished" etc a name you are
alive, but you are dead. You could say He is pruning us to produce more fruit as the vinedresser....
He wants all the fruit of His spirit manifested in us. His prunings/spur us on to branch out and continue
to bear fruit. the well/done and justification I see as the white stone/crown/sit with me/ all the things
that signify His contentment/pleasure and a 'well done"
I have no desire to debate/argue over this. I just thought it might help reconcile Romans and James
if it doesnt suit you..no problem
:thumbsup:
like a dormant tree in winter...you have to break a branch or cut it back to see the green. the inside is alive because of what it is. but the outside doesn't appear to be "doing anything".
Quote from: sheilacarm has a good article on this. How it may appear it contradicts but does not. The gist of the article
is that there is a real danger that our faith may become dead. Jesus speaks to the churches in Rev ch 2/3
saying such things as 'I know your deeds" 'your works are not fully accomplished" etc a name you are
alive, but you are dead. You could say He is pruning us to produce more fruit as the vinedresser....
He wants all the fruit of His spirit manifested in us. His prunings/spur us on to branch out and continue
to bear fruit. the well/done and justification I see as the white stone/crown/sit with me/ all the things
that signify His contentment/pleasure and a 'well done"
I have no desire to debate/argue over this. I just thought it might help reconcile Romans and James
if it doesnt suit you..no problem
"He wants all the fruits manifested in us"
I agree, and my difference with Carm and the whole Calvinistic theology is anything to do with salvation from Hell.
I think if Matt Slick could understand that James was talking about salvation from GREED, and Paul was talking about justification apart from the LAW (which sin uses to actually cause more coveting - Romans 7), I think the whole thing falls into place, at least for me.
We are not saved from ungodliness by the LAW, but by grace which chastens us to abandon ungodliness (which is a work) and thus we are saved/healed/delivered. Not by faith alone. Faith is the kickstarter. It's Grace that saves/delivers us from being in servitude to greed.
But that will not happen until the act of abandoning greed follows faith.
I believe if you take away the hell thing, the salvation process is the same. Believing and receiving His free gift makes us His child, forever (already saved). Then (unless our growth is stunted at this point) His works in us make us progressively into His likeness through obedience, surrender, growth, some call it sanctification (still being saved/healed). Then Paul says we attain full salvation, "to wit, the redemption of our bodies". Pardon me for bringing it up again :laugh2:, but that's why I see it in 3 stages. Done (when given faith to receive Him), being done (as it's walked out), will be done (when we receive immortality/full redemption). Over and out. :dsunny: :Peace2:
Quote from: JabcatI believe if you take away the hell thing, the salvation process is the same.
The process is the same but the thing we are saved from is not the same. Right?
To be saved from disobedience (Titus 3) we must be....obedient.
To be saved from slavery to greed, we must stop being greedy.
To be saved from wrathfulness, we must stop being wrathful.
Common sense!
And, again, according to Apostle James (not just Seth), faith WITHOUT works is dead, being alone. Why? Because the point of faith is unto deliverance.
Paul was clear that those who "do such things" shall not inherit the kingdom of God, which is RIGHTEOUSNESS, peace and joy in the holy Spirit.
We still see it from a little different angle.
Saved - made child of God instead of child of the devil.
Continue being saved (healed) - growing in grace and knowledge, dying to the flesh (carnality).
Will be saved - total redemption per His plan for us.
I see distinctions between initial salvation/what makes us His child forever, and what works do and are for.
One is a totally free gift, seals us as His. Done upon receipt. The other is a gift through His works in us. Sometimes painful, sometimes a struggle. But not what makes or keeps us as His child. That's done through initially receiving Him. (Jn. 1:12)
Continue being saved - growing in grace and knowledge, dying to the flesh (carnality).
= James 2And that, according to him is how faith becomes COMPLETED. Meaning, that's the point of faith to reach the endpoint is which deliverance. Without it, faith is dead because the whole point (salvation/healing/deliverance0 is missed.
It's the doctrine of hell that confuses the issue.
To be saved from wrathfulness, stop being wrathful = common sense
To be saved from hell, stop being hell = what?
QuoteOne is a totally free gift, seals us as His. Done upon receipt. The other is a gift through His works in us.
I haven't said anything remotely contrary to that. It's all a gift.
For he has predestined us only to believe? No, also to be conformed to the image of Christ. That is why Peter says "make your calling and election sure." And that is why Paul tells us to examine ourselves, and alot of other things.
It's not a question of eventual salvation, or status of not being a child of God. A child of the father in the prodigal son was turned over to work in a pig pen. It's a question of being saved/healed from out of our own destruction, or saved/healed through continued growth. I see it as a matter of, take your pick, not as a matter of the label of being a child of God. God will judge his children pretty harshly, and he isn't going to just look at faith or absence of faith as the criteria for how he will do that. The farmer looks for fruit to determine the quality of the tree.
Do you know that when Paul says that the Kingdom of God "is righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit" that the word righteousness is the SAME word for justification?
Paul also says that some people who serve evil will not inherit the kingdom of God. They will not inherit peace and joy, sure, but they will not inherit righteousness either.
So I'll just say it again,
A man is justified /righteous by works and not by faith alone. (James 2:24, not just Seth)
Was Rahab justified by works when she gave quarter to the Jewish spies? Apostle James thought so. You could say, well she was also justified before that too because she believed. OK, but if she failed to give quarter to the spies, and didn't follow their instructions about the red cord, she'd be a justified, dead woman. So how far would her faith alone taken her to being saved from the coming judgment upon Jericho? I think James was teaching from a point of practicality in James 2.
Quote from: Seth on July 02, 2015, 08:55:27 PM
So I'll just say it again,
A man is justified /righteous by works and not by faith alone. (James 2:24, not just Seth)
Have you ever seen he movie
Fight Club?
:laugh:
Sorry Seth, I think you have a good handle on it.
:thumbsup:
Its important to keep the horse before the cart. Believing is the horse. Works are the cart.
I could just go on saying, over and over, "By grace you are saved through faith not of works lest anyman should boast." but that would not be correct, in presenting a balanced view of the subject as discussed to this point.
No one verse can be taken alone out of context and tell the whole story.
Done, being done, will be done, done- going, going, gone :laughing7:
Quote from: eaglesway on July 03, 2015, 05:53:44 AM
Its important to keep the horse before the cart. Believing is the horse. Works are the cart.
I could just go on saying, over and over, "By grace you are saved through faith not of works lest anyman should boast." but that would not be correct, in presenting a balanced view of the subject as discussed to this point.
No one verse can be taken alone out of context and tell the whole story.
Done, being done, will be done, done- going, going, gone :laughing7:
I totally agree about the cart and the horse. Faith first, then works. No disagreement.
About the Ephesians verse, I explained how it fits together with the James 2 verses. And I believe what I presented balances pretty well. I think they all fit together. My point about James 2:24 is that most Christians won't phrase it that way or even literally SAY the verse. It's like they're ashamed to say it.
Quote from: Seth on July 02, 2015, 07:04:24 PM
I doubt there is any fundamental disagreement in whether or not we are saved FOR good works. YES, we are saved FOR good works. HOWEVER, I'm sorry to insist on the phraseology that an Apostle uses, "a man is justified/righteous by works and not by faith alone." If those works DON'T FOLLOW, then salvation from former darkness will not be COMPLETED. As John said: do not be deceived, those who do righteousness are righteous even as God is righteous.
Choosing NOT to do something is as much a work as choosing to do something. Choosing NOT to continue being a slave to darkness is no doubt inspired by the Holy Spirit. But without that action, one will remain unsaved/unhealed/undelivered from darkness. That's common sense.
It's just as Hebrews 10 says what happens if we sin willfully after coming to full knowledge of the truth. I believe Peter is CLEAR in 2 Peter 2 that if we return to "our vomit" we become worse off then when we started. THAT is what I believe James 2 is talking about, not initial salvation.
Verbs mean work. If we sin and go to God to confess, that is a verb. Confess is a verb. Go is a verb. It's what you do as a response to belief. If you sin and DON'T do those things...God gives grace to the humble but resists the proud.
I'd say a difference between us is that I will actually use the phraseology Apostle James uses, because I feel if it's good enough for an Apostle it's good enough for me. Nobody on this conversation will say "a man is justified by works and not by faith alone." Why? Who knows. You can't pretend James didn't say it, even if you have a difference of a opinion as to what he meant.
So the question is "a man is justified by works and not by faith alone"
Either that sentence is true or it is false. Or, you believe as the Concordant theology teaches, that's it's true but just meant for someone else.
Is that the question because you are saying it is or is it really the question- because I have to ask what you do with Eph 2:14 in that light.
Another apostle said the opposite- by your view, but not by my view- because as jabcat and I bith said earlier, there is initial salvation and continuing salvation(abiding, sanctification).
Was James contradicting Paul? I should hope not, then the scriptures are broken.
Where do these two sayings integrate? Simple. Paul is speaking of intitial salvation, James is speaking of continuing salvation, maturing. discipleship.
Salvation is complete when you are attached to the vine. "He that believes in me has passed from death unto life." Salvation is assured if one abides- maintains the connection to the Vine. If one is connected THEY WILL BEAR FRUIT.
There are a number of verses that speak of the assurance of salvation for the believer- one I like in particular is also in Ephesians.
In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God's own possession, to the praise of His glory. Eph 1
A pledge is a down-payment guaranteeing the purchase as a possession. paul says "you were sealed in Him". You in Him, Him in you- that is Christ in you the hope of glory.
I knw that believing includes fruit and works- that is simple enough to see. At issue here is being, getting, saved. This is not by works- it is by grace through faith that we are created in Christ Jesus for good works.
You can try to keep the conversation on the ground of one verse that suits a particular view- but the scriptures of the apostles have more to say on the matter than that.
Ephesians 2:5 even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved)
1 Corinthians 6:11 Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.
I have been saved. I am assurred. I have a new and living way within the veil. I am seated with Christ in the heavenly realms. I have received a deposit guaranteeing the final possession. I am a child of God. I am a brother to Jesus. All of this was given to me in the incorruptible seed which is generating the love and the works that testify to my faith before God.
What James was saying, essentially was, "If you are Christians act like it!" Even as Paul told the Corinthians (1 Cor ch 2&3)that they were babes in Christ, born of God but walking like natural men.
If James is not read as a letter. If a person focuses on one verse out of the whole, they cannot see this.
Quote from: Seth on July 03, 2015, 06:19:21 AM
Quote from: eaglesway on July 03, 2015, 05:53:44 AM
Its important to keep the horse before the cart. Believing is the horse. Works are the cart.
I could just go on saying, over and over, "By grace you are saved through faith not of works lest anyman should boast." but that would not be correct, in presenting a balanced view of the subject as discussed to this point.
No one verse can be taken alone out of context and tell the whole story.
Done, being done, will be done, done- going, going, gone :laughing7:
I totally agree about the cart and the horse. Faith first, then works. No disagreement.
About the Ephesians verse, I explained how it fits together with the James 2 verses. And I believe what I presented balances pretty well. I think they all fit together. My point about James 2:24 is that most Christians won't phrase it that way or even literally SAY the verse. It's like they're ashamed to say it.
I am not ashamed to say it, but I clearly have a different understanding of it than you do. At least we agree that grace comes first LOL
There is a real danger that our faith can become dead. I agree with that entirely. I am focusing soley of initial salvation, and understanding that even as we continue to grow, it is the grace connection that produces the works and keeps faith alive.
For instance, Paul says, "As you received the Spirit, so also walk you in it."
How did we receive the Spirit? By hearing with faith.
Justified also means vindicated, acknowledged as righteous.
I believe that living faith always produces good fruit and good works- and living faith is an abiding love connection to Jesus.
Ok, this may seem like a fine line, but it is an important one.
James was not saying- "You must do works to be saved"
He was saying, "If your faith is alive your works will testify to it."
QuoteIs that the question because you are saying it is or is it really the question- because I have to ask what you do with Eph 2:14 in that light.
I explained that at the bottom of this reply (http://tentmaker.org/forum/discussions-on-universal-salvation/just-believing-god-god-considers-you-righteous/msg188962/#msg188962)
QuoteAnother apostle said the opposite- by your view, but not by my view- because as jabcat and I bith said earlier, there is initial salvation and continuing salvation(abiding, sanctification).
Nope, it's not the opposite by my view. They both reconcile. I believe I have spoken to you about the initial salvation, and that James 2 is not speaking about initial salvation. I'm not sure if you actually are reading my replies.
QuoteWas James contradicting Paul? I should hope not, then the scriptures are broken.
Agreed.
QuoteWhere do these two sayings integrate? Simple. Paul is speaking of intitial salvation, James is speaking of continuing salvation, maturing. discipleship.
I have no problem with that. Except that I would say that James is speaking of completed salvation, or faith being made complete by works, and not dying. Even the demons believe and they tremble.
QuoteThere are a number of verses that speak of the assurance of salvation for the believer- one I like in particular is also in Ephesians.
There is not a single verse that says that God will not harshly judge his own children if they walk in disobedience. And, according to Paul they will meet with "wrath and indignation" and "trouble and distress"
Just like the prodigal son met with trouble and distress even though he was still the son of his father. Nobody will be saved from destruction by faith alone because God cannot be mocked.
Take a look at Hebrews 10QuoteYou can try to keep the conversation on the ground of one verse that suits a particular view- but the scriptures of the apostles have more to say on the matter than that.
If you have actually been reading my replies, you would know that I am not building the conversation on one verse. That is ridiculous. I have been repeating a verse that is true, but that doesn't mean I have been RESTRICTING my beliefs to that verse.
QuoteI have been saved. I am assurred. I have a new and living way within the veil. I am seated with Christ in the heavenly realms. I have received a deposit guaranteeing the final possession. I am a child of God. I am a brother to Jesus. All of this was given to me in the incorruptible seed which is generating the love and the works that testify to my faith before God.
That's great! Just make sure you don't find yourself in a pig pen like the prodigal son who wasted his inheritance. Then, you might need to be saved from trouble and distress, and a pig pen.
Quote from: eaglesway on July 03, 2015, 06:39:16 AM
There is a real danger that our faith can become dead. I agree with that entirely. I am focusing soley of initial salvation, and understanding that even as we continue to grow, it is the grace connection that produces the works and keeps faith alive.
For instance, Paul says, "As you received the Spirit, so also walk you in it."
How did we receive the Spirit? By hearing with faith.
Justified also means vindicated, acknowledged as righteous.
I believe that living faith always produces good fruit and good works- and living faith is an abiding love connection to Jesus.
Ok, this may seem like a fine line, but it is an important one.
James was not saying- "You must do works to be saved"
He was saying, "If your faith is alive your works will testify to it."
Justified means acknowledged as righteous. I agree. Take a look:
1 John 3
4Everyone who practices sin also practices lawlessness; and sin is lawlessness. 5You know that He appeared in order to take away sins; and in Him there is no sin. 6No one who abides in Him sins; no one who sins has seen Him or knows Him. 7Little children, make sure no one deceives you;
the one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous;
8the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning. The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil. 9No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
10By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother.So yeah, "by works a man is righteous and not by faith only."
James did teach that works save (just not the initial salvation), THE CONTINUING SALVATION.
How can you say that James didn't teach that works save, but then acknowledge that he WAS teaching continuing salvation? By what other means did James think Rahab was justified? Faith alone? No, he says she was justified (righteous) when she gave quarter to the Jewish spies.
I was simply saying that James is not speaking about initial salvation....getting saved, which I have said about 6 times :o)
He was speaking of works as the evidence of a living faith, which I believe in, which Jesus also taught. The works spring from faith, which is a gift of God's grace, unmerited, freely distributed to all who believe.
Quote from: eaglesway on July 03, 2015, 07:44:45 AM
I was simply saying that James is not speaking about initial salvation....getting saved, which I have said about 6 times :o)
When did I disagree with that?
QuoteHe was speaking of works as the evidence of a living faith, which I believe in, which Jesus also taught. The works spring from faith, which is a gift of God's grace, unmerited, freely distributed to all who believe.
Again, I have no disagreement that works spring from faith. But, remember,
2 Peter 2
20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
If it's a question about assurance of salvation, I believe everyone will be saved. Even those who don't believe right now.
Quote from: Seth on July 02, 2015, 08:34:04 PM
The process is the same but the thing we are saved from is not the same. Right?
To be saved from disobedience (Titus 3) we must be....obedient.
To be saved from slavery to greed, we must stop being greedy.
To be saved from wrathfulness, we must stop being wrathful.
Common sense!
And, again, according to Apostle James (not just Seth), faith WITHOUT works is dead, being alone. Why? Because the point of faith is unto deliverance.
Paul was clear that those who "do such things" shall not inherit the kingdom of God, which is RIGHTEOUSNESS, peace and joy in the holy Spirit.
You just have it backwards. To be saved from disobedience we must receive forgiveness and a change of heart(new creation). Receiving grace through repentence and confession(transparency with God, humility) is the only way to "stop" anything someone is stuck "doing". Once that happens the fruit and the works follow naturally.
To stop being greedy we must open up to the love of God.
We cannot "stop being" anything until we are a new creation, which is the free gift of God in Jesus Christ.
Those who "do such things" have lost the connection, if they once had it, or they never had it. The answer is not just to "stop doing this".
That is the law.
The answer is to draw near to God, as James prescribes. Cleanse your hands you sinners, purify your hearts you double minded, Draw near to God and He will draw near to you."
Connectedness.
Your emphasis is off. It sounds legalistic, and on other occasions you have disagreed that we are already children of God and can rest in it- which is what assurance of salvation is all about, not the assurance that someday all will be saved, which we all already know.
"This is what the Sovereign LORD, the Holy One of Israel, says: "
Only in returning to me and resting in me will you be saved. In quietness and confidence is your strength.
But you would have none of it." Isaiah 30:15
That is the answer to greed and falling away. Returning and rest. "Labor diligently to enter His rest". "Cease from your own works as God ceased from His" "exhort one another
to love and good works" ......ALL THESE VERSES TELL THE REST OF THE STORY.
A believer needs to be established in grace ABOVE ALL, in the spirit of reconciliation. Then the works will follow. Believers who have been seduced back into the world need to be warned, all the apostles give that warning- but not at the expense of the core message, which is faith and the supply of grace through the Spirit to all who continue believing.
QuoteSETH: There's a difference between claiming and being. I don't think struggling with something automatically means a person is or is not a child of God. I leave it to God to decide, but the Bible does contain some pretty clear teaching on it. According to Romans 8, nobody knows who they are, and Peter said to make our calling and election sure, I believe for that reason.
You see, I agree that we need to make our calling and election sure- but I totally disagree that nobody knows who they are or that Romans 8 even says that..... To me that is going to far and some kind of legalism showing thru.
Romans 8 says we have the spirit of adoption whereby we cry "Daddy! "Father!"
I have actually said as much about the importance of Christian works, the need for them, and that we are created for them as anyone on the forum- but you seem to have a bone to pick, - so you keep implying that somehow I am not hearing James- but I do, and I echoe him, and I have quoted him in this thread. But I dont see it the way you do, and the more you press this point the more I see we disagree substantially in spirit and really- I dont think anything else positive can come out of this discussion- it has all been said.
This is what I learned in one of my Deacon classes, when there was still some vestiges of my 'Works Mentality', as I called it.
The arrow points up,^ when it is about Works. The arrow points down, v, when it is about Faith and Grace.
In other words, when we believe that WORKS - that we do of our own volition - saves, then we see our relationship to God as us needing to 'send' our efforts UP to God. In a nutshell, 'keep trying'.
When we believe we are saved by GRACE, through FAITH, then the arrow points DOWN. God is the one who is continually sending his GRACE to us, which gives us our ability to do GOOD WORKS. He is our 'lifeline',our source, our strength, to do Good Works. Not ourselves. In a nutshell, He is the vine, we are the branches....... without Him, we can do NOTHING.
I will never forget the evening, Pastor explained this to us. It made it so clear to me......so simple, yet so helpful.
I was raised on the Works model......I had to do everything myself.........once, when I asked my Mom to pray about something, she told me, "God doesn't do that, you have to do that on your own." Now I say, Oy Vey!
Then, I just kept trying to work harder......spinning my tail; wearing myself out; feeling inadequate. Now, I know who I am....in Christ.....and in Him, I am transformed, able to face whatever comes my way, with the Ruler of the Universe leading me, guiding me, loving me.
It doesn't make sense, in an earthly way. It defies common sense and logic.
I was blessed to have wonderful, helpful people sent into my life, who helped lay the groundwork for me to make the complete transfer years later.
I hope this is helpful to someone out there. :2c:
Quote from: eaglesway on July 03, 2015, 11:12:01 AM
Quote from: Seth on July 02, 2015, 08:34:04 PM
The process is the same but the thing we are saved from is not the same. Right?
To be saved from disobedience (Titus 3) we must be....obedient.
To be saved from slavery to greed, we must stop being greedy.
To be saved from wrathfulness, we must stop being wrathful.
Common sense!
And, again, according to Apostle James (not just Seth), faith WITHOUT works is dead, being alone. Why? Because the point of faith is unto deliverance.
Paul was clear that those who "do such things" shall not inherit the kingdom of God, which is RIGHTEOUSNESS, peace and joy in the holy Spirit.
You just have it backwards. To be saved from disobedience we must receive forgiveness and a change of heart(new creation). Receiving grace through repentence and confession(transparency with God, humility) is the only way to "stop" anything someone is stuck "doing". Once that happens the fruit and the works follow naturally.
To stop being greedy we must open up to the love of God.
We cannot "stop being" anything until we are a new creation, which is the free gift of God in Jesus Christ.
Those who "do such things" have lost the connection, if they once had it, or they never had it. The answer is not just to "stop doing this".
That is the law.
The answer is to draw near to God, as James prescribes. Cleanse your hands you sinners, purify your hearts you double minded, Draw near to God and He will draw near to you."
Connectedness.
Your emphasis is off. It sounds legalistic, and on other occasions you have disagreed that we are already children of God and can rest in it- which is what assurance of salvation is all about, not the assurance that someday all will be saved, which we all already know.
"This is what the Sovereign LORD, the Holy One of Israel, says: "Only in returning to me and resting in me will you be saved. In quietness and confidence is your strength. But you would have none of it." Isaiah 30:15
That is the answer to greed and falling away. Returning and rest. "Labor diligently to enter His rest". "Cease from your own works as God ceased from His" "exhort one another to love and good works" ......ALL THESE VERSES TELL THE REST OF THE STORY.
A believer needs to be established in grace ABOVE ALL, in the spirit of reconciliation. Then the works will follow. Believers who have been seduced back into the world need to be warned, all the apostles give that warning- but not at the expense of the core message, which is faith and the supply of grace through the Spirit to all who continue believing.
QuoteSETH: There's a difference between claiming and being. I don't think struggling with something automatically means a person is or is not a child of God. I leave it to God to decide, but the Bible does contain some pretty clear teaching on it. According to Romans 8, nobody knows who they are, and Peter said to make our calling and election sure, I believe for that reason.
You see, I agree that we need to make our calling and election sure- but I totally disagree that nobody knows who they are or that Romans 8 even says that..... To me that is going to far and some kind of legalism showing thru.
Romans 8 says we have the spirit of adoption whereby we cry "Daddy! "Father!"
I have actually said as much about the importance of Christian works, the need for them, and that we are created for them as anyone on the forum- but you seem to have a bone to pick, - so you keep implying that somehow I am not hearing James- but I do, and I echoe him, and I have quoted him in this thread. But I dont see it the way you do, and the more you press this point the more I see we disagree substantially in spirit and really- I dont think anything else positive can come out of this discussion- it has all been said.
John, it seems that you have not been fully reading my posts by the above response, because you seem to think I have not been speaking about connectedness leading to works.
So I will keep it simple.
The order is this: believe in Jesus, recieve the Spirit, walk by the Spirit. As Paul said, if you walk by the Spirit you shall not gratify the desires of the flesh.
Therefore, to be saved from wrathfullness, walk by the Spirit, which will cause you to not be wrathful. Thus you will have been saved from wrathfulness. And as Peter said, having escaped the pollution so of the world, do not become again entangled, it is better that you had not known the ways of righteousness.
Nothing about that disagrees with the need to be connected first.
BTW, I think we already had an agreement about the sons of God issue. Not sure why you are bringing it back up to freshly disagree, when we already talked it out and had an agreement about it,
QuoteWhen we believe we are saved by GRACE, through FAITH, then the arrow points DOWN. God is the one who is continually sending his GRACE to us, which gives us our ability to do GOOD WORKS. He is our 'lifeline',our source, our strength, to do Good Works. Not ourselves. In a nutshell, He is the vine, we are the branches....... without Him, we can do NOTHING.
Hi Dandelion,
What I believe is that it's not us who are able to do good works, even if we have that realization, but that it's God who does the works through us. That's why there is no boasting in ourselves.
As I said in previous posts, Grace chastens us to abandon ungodliness (Titus 2:11). And Hebrews talks about how when God chastens us, we experience the peaceable fruit of righteousness thereby. It's all of God not of us.
The end goal, I believe, of faith is as Peter put it in 2 Peter 2, to
"escape the pollution of the world." The way he speaks about it reveals that salvation/healing/deliverance is an dis-entanglement from pollution. That's what works have to do with salvation, becoming disentangled, and not returning.
That word "escape" reminds me of "delivered" or "saved."
We don't escape drowning just by believing the life vest is there, we must also put it on and not take it back off.
In the same way, we don't escape the pollution of the world by only believing Jesus exists, but ALSO by receiving the Spirit and walking by the Spirit.
I believe in surrender and obedience, seeking with His help to do His will. I also think about my (and mankind as a whole) failures, weaknesses, and yes, sins. I also wonder about God's view, His wrath, etc.
Laying in bed it occurred to me;
(I'm not thinking about the person who denies their sin and tries to justify it (even militantly).) So let's say a sincere believer just keeps doing the same things over and over, even against their will. Their flesh is weak, they struggle against a sin, but it keeps cropping up. Believer's heart is definitely bent toward God and has a desire to please him. So believer goes to God, asking for deliverance and help overcoming. God is either "silent", or maybe even says "no". Believer keeps seeking, God finally says clearly "I let this in your life to keep you humble, to keep you looking to and trusting in me". Believer is distraught, thinking he should be overcoming this. Then God gently and sweetly says, "my grace is sufficient for you". So believer then realizes, either now or later, God will ultimately completely deliver him - if not in this life, then when he stands before Him, in the renewal.
Does that believer look forward to wrath and punishment, or do they realize God knows their heart, God still sees them as His child through the lens of the blood of Jesus, and bestows grace (unmerited favor)? Maybe some things to consider in this discussion. Blessings.
QuoteI believe in surrender and obedience, seeking with His help to do His will. I also think about my (and mankind as a whole) failures, weaknesses, and yes, sins. I also wonder about God's view, His wrath, etc.
I do too. I think it's important to understand what that wrath is. In Romans 1, didn't Paul describe a certain kind of wrath that he executed on those who turned away from the truth? It wasn't about pummeling them with literal fire. It was simply turning them over to their own minds and receiving in themselves the penalty for their error. That reminds me so much of the prodigal SON.
QuoteSo let's say a sincere believer just keeps doing the same things over and over, even against their will. Their flesh is weak, they struggle against a sin, but it keeps cropping up. Believer's heart is definitely bent toward God and has a desire to please him. So believer goes to God, asking for deliverance and help overcoming.
James, would you agree that a work is what you DO in response to what you believe? The believer GOES (verb) to God asking (verb) for deliverance.
Faith without works means that going to God and asking for help is absent and the person becomes hard in heart and prideful.
QuoteGod is either "silent", or maybe even says "no". Believer keeps seeking
Seeking (verb)
QuoteGod finally says clearly "I let this in your life to keep you humble, to keep you looking to and trusting in me".
In Romans 1, he does something similar. He turns them over to their own minds do to that which defiles them.
QuoteBeliever is distraught, thinking he should be overcoming this. Then God gently and sweetly says, "my grace is sufficient for you". So believer then realizes, either now or later, God will ultimately completely deliver him - if not in this life, then when he stands before Him, in the renewal.
So, if the believer realizes that he will ULTIMATELY deliver him, that means he is not delivered now, right? We are using the word "delivered" in place of "saved." Even though they both mean the same thing.
QuoteDoes that believer look forward to wrath and punishment, or do they realize God knows their heart, God still sees them as His child through the lens of the blood of Jesus, and bestows grace (unmerited favor)?
The book of Hebrews says not to despise the chastening of God which may be unpleasant, but THAT is what will result in the peaceable fruit of righteousness.
Not John lol.
I guess I had hoped you would (as do I need to) think about this a little more rather than have such a quick and "with-in the usual context" response. But no, I don't believe Paul was "turned over to his own mind" to suffer the consequences. I believe God's mercy and unmerited favor sustained Him and kept him exactly where God wanted him - safely resting in the arms of His Savior. Knowing that just as God said, His grace was sufficient for him. Even in his honest weaknesses. The difference I tried to make clear is someone covering their sins vs. the person in obedience, confessing them and looking to Jesus - yet still being an imperfect human being in need of - and receiving God's approval and mercy- only through the blood of His Son applied. That his "works" at that point were honesty, openness, and trusting Jesus as His Propitiation.
I probably don't have anything further to say right now. I don't believe in ongoing endless debate. Maybe someone else will have something new to say. Have a blessed day.
Quote from: jabcatI guess I had hoped you would (as do I need to) think about this a little more rather than have such a quick and "with-in the usual context" response.
It's because I actually already agreed with what you were saying. I was explaining how it factored in to what I have been saying in this thread for 12 pages.
Quote from: jabcatBut no, I don't believe Paul was "turned over to his own mind" to suffer the consequences. I believe God's mercy and unmerited favor sustained Him and kept him exactly where God wanted him - safely resting in the arms of His Savior. Knowing that just as God said, His grace was sufficient for him. Even in his honest weaknesses.
I didn't say he was. I said he
wrote about God's wrath in that manner it in Romans 1, turning them over to a debased mind.
Quote from: jabcatThe difference I tried to make clear is someone covering their sins vs. the person in obedience, confessing them and looking to Jesus - yet still being an imperfect human being in need of - and receiving God's approval and mercy- only through the blood of His Son applied. That his "works" at that point were honesty, openness, and trusting Jesus as His Propitiation.
I see God's mercy as in delivering us from what enslaves us. We ought to despise not the chastening of the Lord. The chastening of the Lord may not feel good, but it results in the peaceable fruit of righteousness in those who are exercised thereby.
But, doesn't it make sense that if a BELIEVER must wait for deliverance from what enslaves him, it means that he has not realized it through faith alone, and must pray to God to give strength to be delivered. I don't know why I need to think about that, as I already agree.
Thanks, sorry if I misunderstood. Sometimes things sound different the first time. :Peace2:
Quote from: jabcat on July 03, 2015, 07:04:50 PM
Thanks, sorry if I misunderstood. Sometimes things sound different the first time. :Peace2:
:thumbsup: :friendstu:
I think folks might think that when I talk about works it means I think people need to be Mother Theresa or something.
Seth,first of all I want to apoligize if I have said/done anything that made you feel you had to defend yourself.
I know that I have said 'I hear a clang of legalism' and I wonder if that hasn't to do with getting the ball
rolling in all that's happened. I'm sorry bro, I didn't intend it that way.
But I remember saying one time...'I have to know He loves me or I just can't lay my life down"
and you saying 'Me,neither,Sheila " and I think that is difference in even this faith / works thing.
anger/wrath versus His loving,maybe even stern correction. We are better off with His stern correction
if needed..but still need to know it is of the LOVE RELATIONSHIP. I am glad He does not leave me to my
own ways..but saves me even from myself!! But to lay it down[suceed] I need to know He loves me[coz
love never fails]
that Love is the foundation that makes all things possible.
QuoteSeth,first of all I want to apoligize if I have said/done anything that made you feel you had to defend yourself.
I know that I have said 'I hear a clang of legalism' and I wonder if that hasn't to do with getting the ball
rolling in all that's happened. I'm sorry bro, I didn't intend it that way.
Thank you Sheila, I appreciate you reaching out about that. It's all good, and in all fairness, you did say that you didn't think I was being legalistic. I felt like I was getting mixed messages because if I am not being legalistic, I didn't understand why my post was clanging, but thank you for clarifying.
QuoteBut I remember saying one time...'I have to know He loves me or I just can't lay my life down"
and you saying 'Me,neither,Sheila " and I think that is difference in even this faith / works thing.
anger/wrath versus His loving,maybe even stern correction. We are better off with His stern correction
if needed..but still need to know it is of the LOVE RELATIONSHIP.
Yes I agree. We have to know he loves us. I believe that wrath of God is misunderstood. I actually think that the parable of the prodigal son represents the "wrath of God," even though the father clearly loved his Son, he allowed him to go through a very painful transition into repentance while still considering him a son. He even gave his son all the means necessary to do what he did, because he knew what would happen in the end, which is why he waited at the gate.
When I read Romans 1, about the wrath of God, I see the prodigal son in it, the attitude is still about love. I think that is why Jesus gave us that parable, so that we can understand that his judgments are always connected with love.
Unfortunately, the church has done so much to strangle and beat down the concept of how love and even wrath fits together with God that I think we are all still a bit traumatized by it.
Love never fails. Sometimes it doesn't always feel good (Lord knows my daughter would say that she doesn't even think I love her sometimes, which I know she'll understand is wrong when she grows up to have her own kids). But yes, Love NEVER fails.
:girlheart: a little love goes a long way... :HeartThrob:
James, I was thinking more about the example you provided with the struggling believer, and I wanted to get your opinion. I believe there are matters of degrees. There are things that are sinful that really hurt yourself (which you still need to be saved from) but not necessarily others. For example, drug use etc.
Then there are things that hurt others. So, if a believer is struggling with alcohol or pornography that's one thing. He goes to God and confesses and prays. He remains humble about it, and understands what he needs.
Say there is another believer, who is obsessed with murdering children. He believes in Jesus but just can't help himself from kidnapping and murdering little girls by beating them to death. He confesses his sin, but then he does it again, and again.
Remember how much leeway God gave to King Ahab? Prophet after prophet. Warning after warning. Pretty soon, enough was enough. God cannot be mocked.
Peter, in 2 Peter 2, he talks about "natural brute beasts" who are fit for destruction and he says it would have been better had they not known the ways of righteousness, than to know them and become again entangled because they end up being worse than before. The very term "natural brute beasts" is enough to distinguish between someone dealing with a self-harming sin, and someone who hurts other people continually. He's not talking about the well intended believer, he is talking about those who he literally compares to animals, brute beasts.
If someone so much as continually insults people on this forum, you ban him. Is that good enough for us, but not good enough for God? Are you doing something wrong by banning him, cutting him off? It didn't take more than a man sleeping with his father's wife for Paul to do it.
I personally believe a man, whether he believes in Jesus or not, but continually beats little girls to death will face the wrath of God and for his own good. He may be a son of God because of his belief, and It's not that his sins will not be forgiven, but he'll need a big time reality check to save him from what he is doing to little girls, especially if he thinks his belief alone will be enough to hide from the Lord. True repentance should follow with actions. And eventually, I believe, for certain folks enough will be enough.
One might say, well someone who beats little girls to death isn't really a son of God, or a believer. That, to me, is just as good as saying that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only, works in this case being the CEASING of murdering children, not that you have to be Mother Theresa to "get into heaven."
It's not about that. It's about true repentance and fruit following from sincere faith and love. I know people might disagree with me about all this, but it doesn't mean I don't think God loves the people he judges.
Also I want to add, it's not for ME to judge specific individuals about that. I just believe there are generalities we can understand from the Bible about it.
I have two things that you have expressed that I either do not understand what you are saying- or you are saying what I think you are and I absolutley disagree.
1) You said that nobody knows who they are earlier in the thread. When I responded that I know I am a child of God your response was that you think that is claiming a crown before the race is won. When I responded about being saved and being assured of it, you responded, and I am paraphrasing from memory- well, you can do that if you want but make your calling and election sure.
My response to that is that "the horse" is that I know that I am a child of God by reconciliation which is a gift that creates a connection and a new creation, and I know it.Every believer should know it, and be taught it. We can know it by the Spirit of adoption- without any doubt whatsoever. The race is "the cart".
It is this very confidence in God's love for me as a child that encourages and strengthens me to endure the race.
The second thing is your explanation about Eph 2:8-10
As I understood your response you said Paul was speaking to people who were trying to be justified by law works.
This is incorrect. There is NO discourse about law to the Ephesians. They were not being troubled by law. This was a predominantly Gentile church, in excellent shape. Overcoming. Maturing.
Pauls instructions to the Ephesians were all about moving into the mature man, filled up to all the fulness of God.
Eph 2:8-10 is a clear bottomline definiton of salvation- the how and why.
How-by grace through faith and that not of yourselves it is the gift of God.
Why- created for good works that God prepared from the foundation of the world for us to walk in.
He spends the rest of the epistle explaining what that new creation ought to look like in the Spirit.
This is where there is only one gospel- as Paul said to the Corinthians, "Neither circumscision nor unscircumsion is anything- but a new creation". and to the Galatians "Neither circumscision or uncircumscision is anything, but a new creation".
The works James was talking about were "faith working through love" - recognizing and ministering to one anothers needs, not seeking self and pursuing wealth, and I fully agree with the statement, Faith without works is dead.
However- the place where we differentiate between works of the law and the works of which James defined and Paul spoke of in Ephesians 2, is at the source - there is now therefore no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, who walk according to the spirit and nt according to the flesh. We are assured that we are children of God by grace, and are provided the Spirit by grace through faith.
Eph 2:8-10 is the greatest explanation of how we get "in Christ" and there is no moderation needed for the promise of those verses- they cover grace, faith and works -clearly and thoroughly.
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.
If there is no change of heart, if there is no returning to God, if there is no love and fruit and deeds that spring forth from the love of God- then there has been no connection, but...
The other great explanation of how we get "in Christ" is in Romans 10
But what does it say? "The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart"—that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, 9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation. 11 For the Scripture says, "Whoever believes in Him will not be disappointed." 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, abounding in riches for all who call on Him; 13 for "Whoever will call on the name of the Lord will be saved."
Abraham believed God and it was reckoned unto Him as righteousness. His believing guided His works. Ours will too. The key is in the strength of the believing, not in the determination to do works. The believing produces righteousness- both imputed and imparted.
Take care, brethren, that there not be in any one of you an evil, unbelieving heart that falls away from the living God. 13 But encourage one another day after day, as long as it is still called "Today," so that none of you will be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin........................
............And to whom did He swear that they would not enter His rest, but to those who were disobedient? 19 So we see that they were not able to enter because of unbelief.
An unbelieving heart is at the root of disobedience. The writer of Hebrews states that they were disobedient. He specifies unbelief as the root cause of their disobedience. He warns us not to have an evil unbelieving heart.
Faith, which works by love(Gal 5:6), always produces thoughts and deeds from the Spirit from which it draws, that spirit of grace in which we stand.
So even falling away is an issue of believing over works. Evil works are just the fruit of unbelief, the hardening of the heart that comes from the deceitfulness of sin, and the love of this present world over the kingdom of God.
I apologize for not responding sooner. I had to reflect on what you guys said and I didn't want to rant about how I was feeling without considering what you guys said. I do appreciate it and I know that what I struggle with many are struggling with as well. I just don't understand after all these years (6-7) I have not changed who I am. I still struggle with sins since my childhood (mainly sexual immorality). I thought that God might change me over the years but nothing has happened. There has been periods of my life that I just simply give up. I am just not cut out to be a child of God. It would have been better if I am was ignorant of the truth now I am always ashamed.
Rosered I know you ask me why I am came to this site and the main reason is because in my heart I could not believe that God would send people to hell. I know I deserve hell but I hoped that God would loving and powerful enough to save everyone even Satan. It was my dream and I never voiced it out because I thought it was sacrilegious, blasphemous, and too hopeful. I was greatly surprised that there were people around the world who believed the same things. I was equally surprised that the translations of the Word of God have been corrupted sometimes intentionally and sometimes not intentionally. I always though that the Word of God was incorruptible especially the translations. I figured that God in His wisdom would keep it that way. I guess I was wrong. Now I am at the crosswords not knowing what to do. I certainly don't have the power to make the right decisions at every moment of my life and I don't know if God will be the one making the choices for me. I know I am supposed to do what God says but if I am honest with myself I don't think I want do do what God says. I don't want to make conflict with anyone and most part I just want to be left alone so I avoid any conflict. I am hoping that this site will help me with my issues in someway and I thank you all for having the patience to tolerate me.
Quote1) You said that nobody knows who they are earlier in the thread. When I responded that I know I am a child of God your response was that you think that is claiming a crown before the race is won. When I responded about being saved and being assured of it, you responded, and I am paraphrasing from memory- well, you can do that if you want but make your calling and election sure.
My response to that is that "the horse" is that I know that I am a child of God by reconciliation which is a gift that creates a connection and a new creation, and I know it.Every believer should know it, and be taught it. We can know it by the Spirit of adoption- without any doubt whatsoever. The race is "the cart".
When you said:
"The reply being(agree quickly with thine adversary lest he deliver you to the judge and the judge deliver you to the bailiff), "I did do that and I do this, but I
confess this before Him, He forgives me, and I will overcome by His grace."(If we confess our sins He is faithful to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness)"
That is where I agreed. IF....we confess our sins. Not just IF we believe in Jesus, and that's that.
QuoteThe second thing is your explanation about Eph 2:8-10
As I understood your response you said Paul was speaking to people who were trying to be justified by law works.
This is incorrect. There is NO discourse about law to the Ephesians. They were not being troubled by law. This was a predominantly Gentile church, in excellent shape. Overcoming. Maturing.
Eaglesway, it can be pretty frustrating talking about this with you because I already said that I was comparing,
not to Ephesians 2, but to ROMANS 4. Did you see me say that? I clarified that later and you are STILL bringing it up. I feel like you are not really reading my posts.
In
Romans 4 he is talking about justification apart from works OF THE LAW.
In ROMANS 4, Paul is talking about works of the Law.
In JAMES 2, he is not talking about being justified by works of the Law. In James 2, he is talking about how faith without works dies when people are GREEDY. He's saying stop being greedy, because faith alone won't save you from that if you don't eventually take action against being greedy.
QuotePauls instructions to the Ephesians were all about moving into the mature man, filled up to all the fulness of God.
Eph 2:8-10 is a clear bottomline definiton of salvation- the how and why.
How-by grace through faith and that not of yourselves it is the gift of God.
YES I AGREE
Grace through faith saves us from sin because GRACE CHASTENS US TO ABANDON UNGODLINESS. And that abandoning (verb) is what saves us from slavery IN sin. Without the
abandoning, there won't be complete salvation from sin.
So, in Ephesians 2 he says that we FORMERLY walked in the ways of the world because we were joined to Christ (by grace you have been saved).
Saved from what? WALKING in the ways of the world, because we receive the Spirit. Not just believing in Jesus ALONE.
Eaglesway,
This whole thing about Ephesians 2 and Romans 4 started on page 13, reply 308, where I said:
That's right, and that is why the sentence "a man is justified by works and not by faith alone" does not contradict anything Paul said, because Paul was talking about works of the Law, and James was not.
I was referring to Romans 4, when Paul said "by works of the Law shall no man be justified."
THEREFORE:
This statement:
"by works a man is justified and not by faith alone"
does not contradict with this statement:
"by works of the Law shall no man be justified"
BECAUSE those two sentences are talking about different things. Paul is talking about salvation apart from works of the LAW, which I agree with. I believe we are saved from sin by being joined together with Christ by the Spirit, not the Law. James is talking about salvation from GREED by loving in deed and truth, not just in word and tongue.
I completely disagree that Eph 2:8-10 is about salvation from works of the law, or is any extension of Romans 4. It is a general staement about all salvation. So we will just agree to disagree.
Quote from: eaglesway on July 04, 2015, 12:55:08 AM
I completely disagree that Eph 2:8-10 is about salvation from works of the law, or is any extension of Romans 4. It is a general staement about all salvation. So we will just agree to disagree.
I NEVER SAID THAT IT WAS.
I never even mentioned Ephesians 2. I said that Ephesians 2 is about SALVATION FROM SIN, not salvation from works of the LAW.
James 2 is about salvation from sin. ROMANS 4 is about salvation apart from the Law. They don't contradict
QuoteThat's right, and that is why the sentence "a man is justified by works and not by faith alone" does not contradict anything Paul said, because Paul was talking about works of the Law, and James was not.
I was referring to Romans 4, when Paul said "by works of the Law shall no man be justified."
I was not speaking of James contradicting Paul anywhere. I was speaking of you contradicting Paul in your intepretation and application of James words.
Quote from: eaglesway on July 04, 2015, 01:01:18 AM
QuoteThat's right, and that is why the sentence "a man is justified by works and not by faith alone" does not contradict anything Paul said, because Paul was talking about works of the Law, and James was not.
I was referring to Romans 4, when Paul said "by works of the Law shall no man be justified."
I was not speaking of James contradicting Paul anywhere. I was speaking of you contradicting Paul in your intepretation and application of James words.
Show me where
If anyone thinks that I was comparing Ephesians 2 to James 2 when I said that Paul was talking about justification apart from the Law and James was not, show me where. I was comparing ROMANS 4 to JAMES 2 and how they don't contradict.
ROMANS 4 was talking about justification apart from the Law.
JAMES 2 is not talking about justification BY the Law, therefore they don't contradict.
My statement is as simple as that.
Quote from: Aerex on July 03, 2015, 11:34:11 PM
I apologize for not responding sooner. I had to reflect on what you guys said and I didn't want to rant about how I was feeling without considering what you guys said. I do appreciate it and I know that what I struggle with many are struggling with as well. I just don't understand after all these years (6-7) I have not changed who I am. I still struggle with sins since my childhood (mainly sexual immorality). I thought that God might change me over the years but nothing has happened. There has been periods of my life that I just simply give up. I am just not cut out to be a child of God. It would have been better if I am was ignorant of the truth now I am always ashamed.
Rosered I know you ask me why I am came to this site and the main reason is because in my heart I could not believe that God would send people to hell. I know I deserve hell but I hoped that God would loving and powerful enough to save everyone even Satan. It was my dream and I never voiced it out because I thought it was sacrilegious, blasphemous, and too hopeful. I was greatly surprised that there were people around the world who believed the same things. I was equally surprised that the translations of the Word of God have been corrupted sometimes intentionally and sometimes not intentionally. I always though that the Word of God was incorruptible especially the translations. I figured that God in His wisdom would keep it that way. I guess I was wrong. Now I am at the crosswords not knowing what to do. I certainly don't have the power to make the right decisions at every moment of my life and I don't know if God will be the one making the choices for me. I know I am supposed to do what God says but if I am honest with myself I don't think I want do do what God says. I don't want to make conflict with anyone and most part I just want to be left alone so I avoid any conflict. I am hoping that this site will help me with my issues in someway and I thank you all for having the patience to tolerate me.
Dear Aerex,
Please forgive me for not being able to help you ...
God knows ..........
You are so young and way to hard on yourself ,
I know God loves you so very much and he will never give up on you ..
I was exactly where you were at in my twenties and I prayed and failed and guilty also of sexual immorality
I hated it , yet I could not stop it either ..
Those were some awful times and experiences :CryBaby:
But dont give up , God knows if your trying and He looks at our hearts
They matter the most
Remember the one forgiven of much , loves much
God is waiting patiently for you to come to HIM in a surrender of all and how many times it takes
Your convictions as troubling as they may be at this time , are for your benefit because you are loved
I hope you will know this one day and that all the doubts are removed .........
When we turn to the Lord Jesus Christ for our help and pleas , He will not fail you ..
I know that seems hard to believe right now , but the more you ask Him and seeking Him , He will come to you .. believe me many of us can claim this as truth .
Your dream ?
God has poured out His Holy Spirit , believing in the Lord is a great start in you and the Lord has done this....... He is there for you and we all here are for you to ...
Joel ........ Gods promise done in Christ .
Then it will come about at a later time that I will pour out my Spirit on every person.
Your sons and your daughters will prophesy. Your elderly people will dream dreams, and your young people will see visions.
I am one whom is glad you are here Aerex ... :HeartThrob: prayers
Good reply rosie. I wanted to answer Aerex, but felt sort of unsure of what to say. It was "your turn" and you answered the bell. :)
:dsunny:
If someone is going to make a statement about what another person believes but not back it up, that person shouldn't make the statement. If I ever said anything about Ephesians 2 being about salvation from the Law, please show me where, or don't say it. Don't just drop it on a guy and then check out. Back up what you say.
Start at page 13 reply 308 and show me anywhere where I said that Ephesians 2 was about salvation from works of the Law or that it was an extension of Romans 4.
Dear Seth I do not believe anyone wants to be evil on purpose .
I believe after we come to Christ we are in the battle of our lives , between to natures
one of heaven and the other of earth , this is where many of us stumble and fall and fail
I do believe God does turn one over to the destruction of the flesh nature for in the DAY OF THE LORD they shall be saved
How ever long it takes or often , until one is so sin sick and lost they have nothing to give up , but surrender , than can God actually have use for them
The animal nature just as it started has an end ..
We see this in the natural on a daily basis
beast natures for the most part are fear driven or fierce and forced upon the weaker natured
I have seen literal attacks come from temperamental dogs , they have no control over it , they are actually driven by it
I see the evil natured no different , they either get old or sick or literally die fighting before that end comes .
For me this is the sickness unto death that we are told not to pray for that
and it might be better if they did , there is torment in fear driven beasts and the carnal mind is a death sentence
I may be off in thinking but after reading above on your post ,,, I want evil to end , I can hardly wait till we never ever have to deal with it again !!!
This is my joy to know that it will end for everyone who suffers with it or because of it :HeartThrob:
Quote from: jabcat on July 04, 2015, 01:10:57 AM
Good reply rosie. I wanted to answer Aerex, but felt sort of unsure of what to say. It was "your turn" and you answered the bell. :)
He mentioned me by name James , I love that young man , we want what is best for him and glad he can speak openly what is bothering him
I wanted him to know he is never alone , many can relate to his experiences and God is Love and love is an action word :HeartThrob:
We can all get in the wrong , but the thing is not to stay in the wrong ...
I know forgiveness is one of the most beautiful attributes of Jesus Christ message to us all
If He forgives us of any wrong doing we should all be willing to forgive one another that is the least we can do , to show Him we love Him back .
Quote from: rosered on July 04, 2015, 01:29:11 AM
Dear Seth I do not believe anyone wants to be evil on purpose .
I believe after we come to Christ we are in the battle of our lives , between to natures
one of heaven and the other of earth , this is where many of us stumble and fall and fail
I do believe God does turn one over to the destruction of the flesh nature for in the DAY OF THE LORD they shall be saved
How ever long it takes or often , until one is so sin sick and lost they have nothing to give up , but surrender , than can God actually have use for them
The animal nature just as it started has an end ..
We see this in the natural on a daily basis
beast natures for the most part are fear driven or fierce and forced upon the weaker natured
I have seen literal attacks come from temperamental dogs , they have no control over it , they are actually driven by it
I see the evil natured no different , they either get old or sick or literally die fighting before that end comes .
For me this is the sickness unto death that we are told not to pray for that
and it might be better if they did , there is torment in fear driven beasts and the carnal mind is a death sentence
I may be off in thinking but after reading above on your post ,,, I want evil to end , I can hardly wait till we never ever have to deal with it again !!!
This is my joy to know that it will end for everyone who suffers with it or because of it :HeartThrob:
:iagree: :HeartThrob:
Thank you so much Rose for your faithfulness in addressing for Aerex what is truly important. :HeartThrob: You have such an exceptionally tender heart toward others.
Aerex, as Rose said, you are certainly not alone. I share much in common with you, even to the point of having tantrums of hate toward my Father and being suicidal, which has really affected my wife and young son.
I speak to you as one who is still currently in a furious struggle with all of this. I honestly believe that the fact that you have a struggle yourself shows me without doubt that there is life out of the death you are experiencing. You are speaking life, and I am speaking life, even though it seems far from it.
Think about it, does a person who is truly dead struggle to move? Your Father is not reacting to you. He is the very cause of how he is choosing to form his Son in you, and you are making choices in that process. Even in those times we deny him, he remains faithful. We are woven into the fabric of his very being in the person and body of Yeshua. How can he deny himself?
Certainly no easy answers, and not the answer we both want, which is "God, just change me right now so I don't have to struggle with my crap!" Oh, how often I have yelled that in his face. I think we all will be so amazed when we finally see on the other side of this physicality just how intimate he was with us in our darkest moments.
Ronen
Ezekiel 16 On the day you were born,your cord was not cut,nor were you washed with water to make you clean
nor were you rubbed with salt or wrapped in cloths. No one looked on you with pity nor had compassion
enough to do any of these things for you. Rather,on the day you were born you were thrown out into
the open field,for on the day you were born you were despised[sinner]
Then I passed by and saw you kicking about in your blood. And as you lay there in your blood....
I SAID TO YOU,"LIVE!"
Quote from: gregoryfl on July 04, 2015, 02:46:11 AM
Thank you so much Rose for your faithfulness in addressing for Aerex what is truly important. :HeartThrob: You have such an exceptionally tender heart toward others.
Aerex, as Rose said, you are certainly not alone. I share much in common with you, even to the point of having tantrums of hate toward my Father and being suicidal, which has really affected my wife and young son.
I speak to you as one who is still currently in a furious struggle with all of this. I honestly believe that the fact that you have a struggle yourself shows me without doubt that there is life out of the death you are experiencing. You are speaking life, and I am speaking life, even though it seems far from it.
Think about it, does a person who is truly dead struggle to move? Your Father is not reacting to you. He is the very cause of how he is choosing to form his Son in you, and you are making choices in that process. Even in those times we deny him, he remains faithful. We are woven into the fabric of his very being in the person and body of Yeshua. How can he deny himself?
Certainly no easy answers, and not the answer we both want, which is "God, just change me right now so I don't have to struggle with my crap!" Oh, how often I have yelled that in his face. I think we all will be so amazed when we finally see on the other side of this physicality just how intimate he was with us in our darkest moments.
Ronen
So wonderfully true Ronen ! :HeartThrob:
I can certainly relate brother !
Being forgiven much and often just makes us love and cling to Him even more closely .. I say help , Lord help I am in trouble again , and look for Him !!
He is our Light in our darkest moments and it took me a long while to finally run
to Him instead of away from him in those violent struggles and experiences , truly our human element is so weak , but He is strong in the Spirit upon us
and when your faith is tested and you fail the test , but see where he was faithful to you , the humbled trust begins to build within , knowing you are not alone and His peace gives you some rest and hope lives !
Our Victory is in Christ , He does conquer the powers and principalities rising up within us all
We learn though them experiences whom to put all our trust in , it is Him :HeartThrob:
Quote from: sheila on July 04, 2015, 03:22:22 AM
Ezekiel 16 On the day you were born,your cord was not cut,nor were you washed with water to make you clean
nor were you rubbed with salt or wrapped in cloths. No one looked on you with pity nor had compassion
enough to do any of these things for you. Rather,on the day you were born you were thrown out into
the open field,for on the day you were born you were despised[sinner]
Then I passed by and saw you kicking about in your blood. And as you lay there in your blood....
I SAID TO YOU,"LIVE!"
Thank you sis , when reading this I thought of Hebrews 12 when Paul says you have not fought hard enough to the shedding of blood against sin !!
4You have not yet resisted to the point of shedding blood in your striving against sin; 5and you
have forgotten the exhortation which is addressed to you as sons, "MY SON, DO NOT REGARD LIGHTLY THE DISCIPLINE OF THE LORD, NOR FAINT WHEN YOU ARE REPROVED BY HIM;...
He lets us get so sick of the fight against evil doing and the misery it causes upon ourselves and others suffer from it as well
Than does the deliverance come , our HELP in the hour of need we call upon the name of the Lord for our help from striving against sin ..
So many times and struggles , there have been times when I thought , where in the world did that come from ???
I did not know that was hidden in my heart :sigh: But His Light exposes all the darkness and for this i am thankful , humbled , but thankful to Him for His saving grace :HeartThrob:
True,Rose. Everytime I read it,it makes me cry.........it makes me think of us all born in Adam;sinners and
dying.[kicking about in our blood]
...and His great Love and compassion shown to us...and Him wanting us to not only live here a short
while..but with Him eternally!
the washing with water/rubbing with salt/covering with cloths etc..I see in the spirit as the spiritual healing
things He does for us that we may LIVE!!ETERNALLY....that we have LIFE more abundantly in this age
and the eternal immortality in the next!
:thumbsup: :HeartThrob:
Quote from: Seth on July 04, 2015, 01:04:37 AM
If anyone thinks that I was comparing Ephesians 2 to James 2 when I said that Paul was talking about justification apart from the Law and James was not, show me where. I was comparing ROMANS 4 to JAMES 2 and how they don't contradict.
ROMANS 4 was talking about justification apart from the Law.
JAMES 2 is not talking about justification BY the Law, therefore they don't contradict.
My statement is as simple as that.
I have never spoken about Romans 4.
Only Eph 2 and James 2. What you are missing(as I see it) is a difference of spiritual understanding that you and I will not resolve with words.
Its a matter of perception, and its all been said.
Quote from: eaglesway on July 04, 2015, 04:47:07 AM
Quote from: Seth on July 04, 2015, 01:04:37 AM
If anyone thinks that I was comparing Ephesians 2 to James 2 when I said that Paul was talking about justification apart from the Law and James was not, show me where. I was comparing ROMANS 4 to JAMES 2 and how they don't contradict.
ROMANS 4 was talking about justification apart from the Law.
JAMES 2 is not talking about justification BY the Law, therefore they don't contradict.
My statement is as simple as that.
I have never spoken about Romans 4.
Only Eph 2 and James 2. What you are missing(as I see it) is a difference of spiritual understanding that you and I will not resolve with words.
Its a matter of perception, and its all been said.
John I think you have gotten so confused at this point, it's probably impossible unwind the ball of twine at this point. Thanks for the conversation anyway. :dontknow:
I am not the slightest bit confused. But you are welcome :o)
If you are saying that I said Ephesians 2 is an extension of Romans 4 and teaches salvation from works of the Law, but you cannot find where I said that, then yes confusion has set in. It may be my fault, maybe the words I use, I don't know. I still ask you to find where I said, and if you can't then it shows that you were not understanding me.
My view of salvation is all about the Spirit, there's no lack of spiritual attribution to salvation on my part whatsoever. I'd demonstrate that, but I am not sure if you would actually read it.
Quote from: rosered on July 04, 2015, 01:29:11 AM
Dear Seth I do not believe anyone wants to be evil on purpose .
I believe after we come to Christ we are in the battle of our lives , between to natures
one of heaven and the other of earth , this is where many of us stumble and fall and fail
I do believe God does turn one over to the destruction of the flesh nature for in the DAY OF THE LORD they shall be saved
How ever long it takes or often , until one is so sin sick and lost they have nothing to give up , but surrender , than can God actually have use for them
The animal nature just as it started has an end ..
We see this in the natural on a daily basis
beast natures for the most part are fear driven or fierce and forced upon the weaker natured
I have seen literal attacks come from temperamental dogs , they have no control over it , they are actually driven by it
I see the evil natured no different , they either get old or sick or literally die fighting before that end comes .
For me this is the sickness unto death that we are told not to pray for that
and it might be better if they did , there is torment in fear driven beasts and the carnal mind is a death sentence
I may be off in thinking but after reading above on your post ,,, I want evil to end , I can hardly wait till we never ever have to deal with it again !!!
This is my joy to know that it will end for everyone who suffers with it or because of it :HeartThrob:
Amen Rose. I agree, nobody wants this. Creation is in the throws of birth pains. Groaning to be set free. Salvation for all is an iron clad inevitably. :HeartThrob:
Seth, I have read every one of your posts thoroughly. I disagreed with your emphasis. I still do. As far as spiritual attribution, I was simply saying that you and I have a spiritual disagreement here that will not be resolved with words. if you cant let it go, then we should just continue in PM.
I don't mind agreeing to disagree. I just don't like having things I didn't say attributed to me then asking where I said it and getting nothing. That's all.
Perhaps you can cllarify for me what you mean by "Nobody knows who they are". That statement is at the core of where we disagree.
Quote from: Seth on July 03, 2015, 05:38:25 PM
QuoteWhen we believe we are saved by GRACE, through FAITH, then the arrow points DOWN. God is the one who is continually sending his GRACE to us, which gives us our ability to do GOOD WORKS. He is our 'lifeline',our source, our strength, to do Good Works. Not ourselves. In a nutshell, He is the vine, we are the branches....... without Him, we can do NOTHING.
Hi Dandelion,
What I believe is that it's not us who are able to do good works, even if we have that realization, but that it's God who does the works through us. That's why there is no boasting in ourselves.
As I said in previous posts, Grace chastens us to abandon ungodliness (Titus 2:11). And Hebrews talks about how when God chastens us, we experience the peaceable fruit of righteousness thereby. It's all of God not of us.
The end goal, I believe, of faith is as Peter put it in 2 Peter 2, to "escape the pollution of the world." The way he speaks about it reveals that salvation/healing/deliverance is an dis-entanglement from pollution. That's what works have to do with salvation, becoming disentangled, and not returning.
That word "escape" reminds me of "delivered" or "saved."
We don't escape drowning just by believing the life vest is there, we must also put it on and not take it back off.
In the same way, we don't escape the pollution of the world by only believing Jesus exists, but ALSO by receiving the Spirit and walking by the Spirit.
Hi Seth. Yes, faith is just the beginning.
The faith of a mustard seed, will begin a transformation. Unless we start to say NO, there will be no stopping God. His grace will pour out on us and make us new.
More and more of Him in us, less of the 'old man', who used to be ourselves.
As a teacher, I picture a sand table, being emptied of the sand, and then it can be filled with water, instead. We 'pull the plug' on our old lives and allow God to fill us with Himself.
Isaiah 40: ...30Though youths grow weary and tired, And vigorous young men stumble badly, 31Yet those who wait for the LORD Will gain new strength; They will mount up with wings like eagles, They will run and not get tired, They will walk and not become weary.
Galatians 2: 19"For through the Law I died to the Law, so that I might live to God. 20"I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me. 21"I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness comes through the Law, then Christ died needlessly."
Quote from: eaglesway on July 04, 2015, 07:36:41 AM
Perhaps you can cllarify for me what you mean by "Nobody knows who they are". That statement is at the core of where we disagree.
I don't think so John. I don't appreciate how you have been to me late in this conversation and I don't think anything fruitful will come of it.
Quote from: Dandelion on July 04, 2015, 07:41:42 AM
Quote from: Seth on July 03, 2015, 05:38:25 PM
QuoteWhen we believe we are saved by GRACE, through FAITH, then the arrow points DOWN. God is the one who is continually sending his GRACE to us, which gives us our ability to do GOOD WORKS. He is our 'lifeline',our source, our strength, to do Good Works. Not ourselves. In a nutshell, He is the vine, we are the branches....... without Him, we can do NOTHING.
Hi Dandelion,
What I believe is that it's not us who are able to do good works, even if we have that realization, but that it's God who does the works through us. That's why there is no boasting in ourselves.
As I said in previous posts, Grace chastens us to abandon ungodliness (Titus 2:11). And Hebrews talks about how when God chastens us, we experience the peaceable fruit of righteousness thereby. It's all of God not of us.
The end goal, I believe, of faith is as Peter put it in 2 Peter 2, to "escape the pollution of the world." The way he speaks about it reveals that salvation/healing/deliverance is an dis-entanglement from pollution. That's what works have to do with salvation, becoming disentangled, and not returning.
That word "escape" reminds me of "delivered" or "saved."
We don't escape drowning just by believing the life vest is there, we must also put it on and not take it back off.
In the same way, we don't escape the pollution of the world by only believing Jesus exists, but ALSO by receiving the Spirit and walking by the Spirit.
Hi Seth. Yes, faith is just the beginning.
The faith of a mustard seed, will begin a transformation. Unless we start to say NO, there will be no stopping God. His grace will pour out on us and make us new.
More and more of Him in us, less of the 'old man', who used to be ourselves.
As a teacher, I picture a sand table, being emptied of the sand, and then it can be filled with water, instead. We 'pull the plug' on our old lives and allow God to fill us with Himself.
Isaiah 40: ...30Though youths grow weary and tired, And vigorous young men stumble badly, 31Yet those who wait for the LORD Will gain new strength; They will mount up with wings like eagles, They will run and not get tired, They will walk and not become weary.
Galatians 2: 19"For through the Law I died to the Law, so that I might live to God. 20"I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me. 21"I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness comes through the Law, then Christ died needlessly."
Amen :dsunny:
Quote from: Seth on July 04, 2015, 07:44:18 AM
Quote from: eaglesway on July 04, 2015, 07:36:41 AM
Perhaps you can cllarify for me what you mean by "Nobody knows who they are". That statement is at the core of where we disagree.
I don't think so John. I don't appreciate how you have been to me late in this conversation and I don't think anything fruitful will come of it.
Of course.