Just believing God, God considers you righteous

[Seth]

But one would never know if they would slip back into pedophilia at any given moment if they were given to that lifestyle. So they would
always be in fear of losing their salvation. We all sin. We all fall short of God's glory on a daily basis.  The answer to this dilemma is grace and faith.

Yes, the answer to not slipping back into pedophelia is grace through faith. According to Apostle Paul, grace chastens us to abandon ungodliness and pursue good works (Titus 2:11). So, that is the answer to not losing your salvation from pedophelia, not falsely assuming one is righteous before God while simultaneously hurting children.

Even the Corinthian boy caught having sex with his father's mother did not lose his salvation. Yes, he was severely chastened by Satan for that act but in 11 Corinthians they accepted the boy back into fellowship. But Paul had them give the boy over to Satan for the destruction of his flesh so his spirit would be saved.

So then he wasn't saved from Satan.

[jabcat]

I see the difference here in what you two are talking about is 1) saved (having become a child of God through the gift of faith in Christ as Savior)   and  2) delivered/experiencing healing (either instantaneously/miraculously, or over time through growth and discipline/correction.  Maturity, overcoming.)

I believe one can be a child of God, truly having received Him through faith in His name (Jn. 1:12  But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God")  yet still have lots of room to grow, be healed, be delivered, etc.    Just because one hasn't as yet reached perfection and perfect healing and deliverance, etc., IMO doesn't mean they as yet don't know God, aren't saved, etc., as that's a free gift, when, as, and to whom God gives it. 

[Seth]

I see the difference here in what you two are talking about is 1) saved (having become a child of God through the gift of faith in Christ as Savior)   and  2) delivered (either instantaneously/miraculously, or over time through growth and discipline/correction.  Maturity, overcoming.)

I actually also see the benefit of initial belief as being a child of God. But, as far as I know, the root of "sozo" from where we get the word saved is a parallel to the word delivered. In fact, in Titus 3, Paul says that we were "saved" not through our righteous works, but by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit. I see saved and delivered as the same thing.

When people were healed from physical wounds from Jesus, they said that they were sozo (saved/delivered) from those ailments when he healed them.

I personally think the Bible is clear that there is a difference between a child that needs some gentle correction, and one that is so outrageously contrary to to the righteousness laid out in Christ's own walk, that such a one needs to be torn down and rebuilt (handed over to Satan).

If, for example, a practicing pedophile considers himself a "child of God" and that makes him feel better, while he is facing the Romans 2 wrath and indignation that he has stored built up for himself, ok, but I don't think it's going to serve him very well in that moment.

If it's a matter of being ultimately saved, that's not even a question. How you get there, that's the question.

Gentle correction? Or turned over to Satan to be eaten for lunch? Choose.

[jabcat]

I just think we can talk circles around this - and do  :winkgrin: - if we don't identify exactly what's being talked about.

Other than that, my last post is the clearest I can personally be on it, so I guess if others want to string it out or complicate it, we'll see how it goes.   :bigGrin:

[Seth]

 :HeartThrob:

The book of Romans alone is 16 chapters. There's alot of info to talk about. It's not that it's not simple, it's just there is alot to unpack and consider.

[jabcat]

One of the things that may tend to complicate it is, I personally believe 'saved' is used in different contexts in the scriptures.  The initial belief/salvation of the spirit (which is what I personally mostly use the term for) and then in other places to identify healing, deliverance, rescue, etc.   For clarity and simplicity, I tend to use saved to mean coming to and knowing God, becoming His child, etc., and other terms like deliverance, overcoming, healing, etc.  in other contexts.  Works for me, maybe not for everyone.  I just know if we're not careful it can become so cluttered then we don't even know exactly to what we're referring.  :)   :2c:

[Seth]

I just know if we're not careful it can become so cluttered then we don't even know exactly to what we're referring.  :)   :2c:

Ain't that the truth, bro  :laughing7:

Plus I believe there are two phases of healing, inward and then outward. The first is gained from the holy spirit by faith alone, while latter is when faith is made matured or comes to full completion when the outer works are changed.

I think salvation is many layered thing, not the single thing we were taught in church. But ultimately I think it reflects what Matthew says. His name shall be Jesus because he will save his people from their sin.

[eaglesway]

One of the things that may tend to complicate it is, I personally believe 'saved' is used in different contexts in the scriptures.  The initial belief/salvation of the spirit (which is what I personally mostly use the term for) and then in other places to identify healing, deliverance, rescue, etc.   For clarity and simplicity, I tend to use saved to mean coming to and knowing God, becoming His child, etc., and other terms like deliverance, overcoming, healing, etc.  in other contexts.  Works for me, maybe not for everyone.  I just know if we're not careful it can become so cluttered then we don't even know exactly to what we're referring.  :)   :2c:

It works great for me, but the problem is, everyone uses it differently, and even determinig the context of its use in scripture is sometimes difficult.

Personally, I dislike the word all together because it has a meaning(in my opinion), so long associated with the ET paradigm that is is impossible to use it without red flags going up, especially when you are using it in the context of further salvation(ongoing sanctification, healing and deliverance, restoration, the resurrection, etc.).

If we knew what each other was thinking when using words like saved; believe; repent, etc.- a lot of issues would probably be resolved immediately.

Thought ballons anyone?  :laugh:

[Seth]

I totally agree, I don't like the word either for that reason.

[jabcat]

Haha, I like the word just fine.  I honestly think most people recognize the meaning as becoming/being a child of God.  I think that's what Gary means when he says "we at Tentmaker don't believe everyone, including those of other religions are saved at this time".  Saved - know God, are a child of God through faith in Christ - a redeemed believer.

Some people certainly include "being saved from hell" as an add-on or ultimate result as part of their theology.  But generally I've only seen it used in what I personally consider a confusing manner on this particular forum.    :NewB1:

Maybe that's because we try to break things down more, pick things apart.  Which I'm sure there's some benefit to that, but maybe sometimes it's pushed past its point of usefulness - when simplicity would work just fine.

Believe on Him.  Trust.  Follow.  His grace sustains us, His love constrains us.

[Seth]

Well, I think the reason is like that in this forum is because we don't believe in hell, but we do believe in salvation so everyone has a view of what that means now that they have stepped through the veil of hellness. So it becomes necessary to pick it apart since "salvation" needs a new paradigm.

[jabcat]

I'm sure that's part of it.

I added this to my post while you were posting;

"I think that's what Gary means when he says "we at Tentmaker don't believe everyone, including those of other religions are saved at this time".  Saved - know God, are a child of God through faith in Christ - a redeemed believer."

[jabcat]

so again, I personally believe some in this discussion (me, lol) are using it to mean becoming a child of God, being given faith to believe on His name.

whereas i believe a couple others use it as meaning that (the initial belief, passing from death to Life), but also as deliverance, healing, overcoming, etc.

so isn't the nuts and bolts question of the OP, "if we believe Jesus is the Son of God, died for our sins, and was raised from the dead, does that put us in right standing (righteous) with God"?

I'm thinking just now of the dear brother I heard say once, "I believe when we get saved we're perfect.  But after that it's up to us".   :bsad:

[Seth]

My answer is yes it does put us in right standing with God. That initial standing. If all your past sins are forgiven, how can you not be in right standing?

Now, going forward, says Paul, consider the kindness and severity of God...

[jabcat]

yeah..

this has got me thinking.  maybe there are better, clearer descriptors so we don't talk all over and around each other;  but i think of the terms redeemed believer (including a babe in Christ) and then either mature believer (the kind Paul encourages us to strive to be) or carnal believer (the Corinthian kind he ripped up one side and then the other, while still calling them saints ..)   :dsunny:   

:dunno2:  language is tricky.

[Seth]

yes I would agree with that. I also personally think that the understanding of inner and outward salvation helped resolve some issues for me. The inner salvation is through belief, inheriting the HS. The outer salvation is what happens next when the manifeston occurs in one's behaviors. That latter one is the kind of salvation I think James is talking about in James 2.

[eaglesway]

so again, I personally believe some in this discussion (me, lol) are using it to mean becoming a child of God, being given faith to believe on His name.

whereas i believe a couple others use it as meaning that (the initial belief, passing from death to Life), but also as deliverance, healing, overcoming, etc.

so isn't the nuts and bolts question of the OP, "if we believe Jesus is the Son of God, died for our sins, and was raised from the dead, does that put us in right standing (righteous) with God"?

I'm thinking just now of the dear brother I heard say once, "I believe when we get saved we're perfect.  But after that it's up to us".   :bsad:

I was saved the instant I saw, in my heart, soul and mind- Christ crucified for me. Cried like a baby. Was a mess for a long time after that, but i was a saved mess. (Some folks would say i still am HAHAHAHAH).

[eaglesway]

Isaiah 45:22 "Turn to Me and be saved, all the ends of the earth; For I am God, and there is no other."   :banana:

[eaglesway]

Matthew 10:22 You will be hated by all because of My name, but it is the one who has endured to the end who will be saved.  :dontknow:

[eaglesway]

Luke 7:50 And He said to the woman, "Your faith has saved you; go in peace."  Argh

[eaglesway]

Acts 2:40 And with many other words he solemnly testified and kept on exhorting them, saying, "Be saved from this perverse generation!"  :doh:

[eaglesway]

Acts 27:31 Paul said to the centurion and to the soldiers, "Unless these men remain in the ship, you yourselves cannot be saved."

Now I know what we've all been missing........... the boat.   :laughing7:

[eaglesway]

Romans 8:24 For in hope we have been saved, but hope that is seen is not hope; for who hopes for what he already sees?  :Pray:

[eaglesway]

1 Corinthians 1:18  For the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.  :dsunny:

[jabcat]

so again, I personally believe some in this discussion (me, lol) are using it to mean becoming a child of God, being given faith to believe on His name.

whereas i believe a couple others use it as meaning that (the initial belief, passing from death to Life), but also as deliverance, healing, overcoming, etc.

so isn't the nuts and bolts question of the OP, "if we believe Jesus is the Son of God, died for our sins, and was raised from the dead, does that put us in right standing (righteous) with God"?

I'm thinking just now of the dear brother I heard say once, "I believe when we get saved we're perfect.  But after that it's up to us".   :bsad:

I was saved the instant I saw, in my heart, soul and mind- Christ crucified for me. Cried like a baby. Was a mess for a long time after that, but i was a saved mess. (Some folks would say i still am HAHAHAHAH).

:thumbsup: :thumbsup:

---------

all those scrips.  reminds me again of context, what's surrounding it, what's the story in that particular scene.

"I'm really living".      Do I mean, I've passed from death to life through the grace of God and Christ's work on the cross?  Or do I mean, I'm at an amusement park having the time of my life? (not likely).   Or do I mean, I was told last week I was going to die due to a blocked carotid, but the doctor performed expert surgery with God's blessing and help so I'm not going to die this week (as far as I know)?   

Just to pull out one of those scrips, asking more questions to make the point of context rather than trying to "explain" it.  "He who endures to the end shall be saved".  Someone asked me once, "to the end of what"?  Good question.  Also a good question, what does saved mean in that context?     Does it mean their physical lives saved from a specific event or set of circumstances, or something else?  I know folks in the circles I grew up who use that verse to mean "hang in there for all you're worth, and when Jesus comes back, if you're living right when He comes,  you'll go to heaven and not be cast into hell".  Me, I don't think it means that.  I don't think it's talking about salvation of the spirit at all, because again, that's a free gift given by God.  He ensures that it me, drawing me back, disciplining me, giving me grace sufficient for my weaknesses.  I don't have to struggle in my own efforts or goodness to keep it.   So is it more about the tribulation coming upon the Jews in 70 AD perhaps?  If not that, then something else along those lines?    On the other hand, if it is talking about salvation of the spirit/being a child of God, then I'd have to believe whoever endures to the end is accomplished by Him in and through us anyway.  So that He will ensure it, as He's sealed us unto that Day and He's the Author and Finisher of our faith.  :)     :2c:
-------------
"We've been missing the boat".   :laugh:  :thumbsup: