Just believing God, God considers you righteous

[Seth]

But that doessnt mean we should set our mind aside. The truth is, prayer and meditation are the most powerful means of understanding available to us. The Lamp of the Lord shines in us and illuminates meaning and context. As we become like little children before Him(humble, trusting) complecities resolve into simplicities- primarily that God loves us, He forgives us, and He sent Jesus to bring us home to Him.

The journey was never promised to be easy, until we take His yoke upon s, at which point the Spirit will undertake dor us in ways we could not previously conceive of.

IMO the way we take His yoke upon us is to offer ourselves to Him and trust thata He will teach us.

With all due respect, it sounds like a work thing and I don't see grace in any of this. I get that prayer is a powerful thing but it is still a work you have to do. Also, it sounds like we have to make the first step before God changes us. I just don't see how a despicable and evil men like myself would do do any of the things that you have mentioned. The Bible says that Christ will draw all men onto himself. So is it God that causes us to take his yoke, God that causes us to pray and meditate, God that causes us to not sin. Or is that we his yoke or we pray and meditate and we do not sin. Where exactly is God's power in all of this? Can't someone boast when they say I prayed and mediate a lot and that is why I understand or I took his yoke upon myself that is why I have the Spirit with me?

Here is God's power in it, especially concerning Grace:

Titus 2:11-14
11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation/deliverance/healing hath appeared to all men,

12 Teaching (paiduo- chastening) us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;

13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;

14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

That's why I think it is a shame that "works" and "salvation by grace" are thought of as mutually exclusive concepts. The grace of God chastens us to walk differently and that is our deliverance from our former walk. It's 100% Grace at all times.

[rosered]

  Amen , you don't really LIVE  until you really believe all the good and all the perfect  done  is GOD HIMSELF    , Doing for you and bringing you along 

Seeing the evil and  doing the evil , just makes it harder for us to   UNDERSTAND    the goodness of God

I have always said the flesh is a heavy weight and dark covering       that keeps us bound to death  ...


Its the Spirit and Light in   GODS   LOVE it that frees us    from such  misery  ,   Sending Gods Son , IS PROOF OF THIS TRUTH

Grace is  always Gods gift though the Holy Spirit  , that is why we are to never speak against,  the very thing that does save you ....   

GOD is now seeking such to worship Him in Spirit and truth     

GOD does not give up on us , it is us whom give up on God     and to our own  detriment .   :sigh:

  Something you can experience NOW   IS Knowing Gods pure  holy love    for all  mankind   !! 

[Seth]

To Aerex:

This is the way I picture it, sometimes.

God is knocking at the door of our souls. We can choose to open the door or not. It is a choice we make, not a work we do. As a Lutheran, I was taught, we can only fulfill that, with the help of the Holy Spirit, as we are dead in our sins, and can do absolutely nothing good, on our own, but say'no'.

Once we open the door, we have allowed God entrance into our will. We can surrender all, or part, as well. For all of us, there are areas of our life, that are very hard to let go of our control of, IMO. As if we really knew what we were doing, anyway! This, as I see it, is one of the hardest things for us to do, as humans, but, in a sense, it is really all we can do, without God's strength, for if we allow Him to be at the helm of our lives, then we will do His will. I also believe that it is a tussle, all of our lives, because as humans, we always will inch our way to try to take back some of the control. I believe sin is when we don't do God's will. And I believe we will always struggle with this, as sons and daughters of Adam and Eve: to give up our own desires and wants, in exchange for His.

I look at faith as the 'seed' that allows God into the 'front door' of our lives. Trust then becomes the giving over of all the various aspects of our life, to Him, because we come to acknowledge that He, and not us, can and will do a 'better job' of directing our paths. We come to realize that we will truly be who we are and were meant to be, when we surrender to Him. And, He pours out His grace, continually, to help us and give us His strength, for, we don't have it, on our own, to do His will.

We can do 'good works' then, but not of our power or will, but of His.

"I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing." John 15:5

In a way, we just have to not say NO to God. He is knocking and asking all the time, to enter every one of our lives. We just have to leave the door open!

This is my favorite Bible quote:

Proverbs 3: 5 - 6

5Trust in the LORD with all your heart And do not lean on your own understanding. 6In all your ways acknowledge Him, And He will make your paths straight....

Hope you enjoyed my analogy, Aerex!

:gsmile:

:dsunny:

Awesome

[Tony N]

what about David? adultery and murder..yet the anointed of the Lord..was David righteous? or fallible?

and severely corrected.[sin reigned over him through the lust of his eyes]

David is a great example. Why was he SEVERELY corrected? Was it because he didn't believe in God? How far did his imputed righteousness (if he had that pre-New Covenant) carry him seeing that he lost his son?

"He will judge each man according to his deeds" Romans 2:6

The important thing to consider is that all Abraham did was believe God and God reckoned righteousness to him.
And Paul in Romans 4 said this was written because of those who are about to be believing God. They too are reckoned righteous.
God loves those He chastens. Being declared righteous does not mean we do not need neeful loving correction.

[Seth]

Well, I believe all correction by God is loving, whether or not someone is a believer. But, what is pretty clear to me, by taking in the whole scope of the book of Romans (not just a few verses of one chapter), and all Paul's other writings, along with the book of Acts, is that some people who believe in Jesus will face more than gentle correction, but wrath and indignation depending on whether or not they proceed with pride or humility. Nobody is perfect, but I believe that there is a difference between branches being pruned and branches being cut off.

I believe if a man is going to have faith, but he is kicked out of the church to be destroyed by Satan for sleeping with his father's wife, his righteousness that you say he has, is pretty much academic at that point. It didn't save him from Satan as he bore bad fruit. Eventually, everyone will be saved, and there is no hell, so none of this is evidence of UNloving correction. But it's still pretty harsh correction to be handed over to Satan, imo.

Again, I believe this is more understandable when we factor in the Hebrew understanding of faith, which is faithfulness. Abraham was faithful without a Law. Paul mentions circumcision 7 times in 4 verses in Romans 4. Abraham wouldn't have been turned over to Satan, because he had ENUMAH, faithfulness, which means belief and obedience, a firm planting, without needing a Law.

[eaglesway]

What we believe affects what we do, how we think, and most importantly, I think, opens the door for God to come in.

"It is God who is in you to will and to work of His good pleasure."

"Christ in you, the hope of glory"

"He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus."

[Seth]

 :dsunny:

[micah7:9]

The soul/person will KNOW.....simply KNOW. When a soul is drawn, by the Father to Jesus the Savior......whatever doubt that may rise, is squelched by the Faith of Jesus which is embraced by and to the faith given. I believe  :2c::HeartThrob: :dsunny:

[ed]

What we believe affects what we do, how we think, and most importantly, I think, opens the door for God to come in.

"It is God who is in you to will and to work of His good pleasure."

"Christ in you, the hope of glory"

"He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus."

Good point ew,

What you identify with makes a big difference on what we do and how we think.

I often hear Christians say that they are sinners...........but Paul wrote the saints.

Sin conscious and identifying with sin or Christ consciousness and identifying with His righteousness. Christ or Adam.

God did not create man in sin, but the law of sin is always in our members.  Identifying with the created man, who seeks God, was created by God, and finds his home in God is the man that we identify with.  Lost Adam is found, cleaned up, and made a saint, in Christ.......holy and without blame.

[dajomaco]

Christ consciousness.
The best use of our mind is to be conscious of Christ and take pleasure in knowing Jesus ,did what we could not do.( for us )

[Seth]

Here is an example of Enumah from the Psalm 32 that Paul quotes in Romans 4:

Psalm 32
1Blessed is the one
whose transgressions are forgiven,
whose sins are covered.
2Blessed is the one
whose sin the Lord does not count against them
and in whose spirit is no deceit.

3When I kept silent,
my bones wasted away
through my groaning all day long.
4For day and night
your hand was heavy on me;
my strength was sapped
as in the heat of summer.b

5Then I acknowledged my sin to you
and did not cover up my iniquity.
I said, "I will confess
my transgressions to the Lord."
And you forgave
the guilt of my sin.
6Therefore let all the faithful pray to you
while you may be found;
surely the rising of the mighty waters
will not reach them.

7You are my hiding place;
you will protect me from trouble
and surround me with songs of deliverance.
8I will instruct you and teach you in the way you should go;
I will counsel you with my loving eye on you.

9Do not be like the horse or the mule,
which have no understanding
but must be controlled by bit and bridle
or they will not come to you.
10Many are the woes of the wicked,
but the Lord's unfailing love
surrounds the one who trusts in him.
11Rejoice in the Lord and be glad, you righteous;
sing, all you who are upright in heart!

Paul's use of this Psalm in Romans 4 makes it clear to me that he is emphasizing, to the legalistic crowd, that when someone puts their trust in Christ all their sins are forgiven. Obviously, if your past sins are forgiven, you stand upright, a clean slate, righteous. But, being a Jew he did not separate faith from the walk of deliverance, which is what enumah is, as opposed to our Western view of belief.

The enumah concept is ALL OVER that psalm. Confession leads to forgiveness, but the truly faithful will have an upright heart and a spirit without deceit and is not like the horse or mule which must be controlled by bit or bridle.

This is why James talked about faith and works (not works of the Law) as being inseparable, faith dead without love. The Hebrew understanding didn't divide obedience and faith. That psalm that Paul is quoting doesn't separate them either. In fact, that psalm diminishes the "bit and bridle" aspect of obedience, while emphasizing obedience being the natural outcome of a change of heart.

[dajomaco]

The FIRST confession is that Jesus is Lord.

[eaglesway]

We are not saved by works. We are saved FOR works.

For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them. Eph 2:10

[Seth]

It's all a question of opportunity cost. If you're doing one thing, you're not doing another. We are, in my opinion, saved by completed faith alone.

If Rahab hadn't acted on her faith, she would have been a dead believer, imo

[eaglesway]

As I see it, completed faith is a heart connection with Jesus Christ. IMO, as long as that is real we are already "saved" by being in the Vine of life. Anything good comes from maintaining that connection.

[ed]

It's all a question of opportunity cost. If you're doing one thing, you're not doing another. We are, in my opinion, saved by completed faith alone.

Completed faith?

Saved only after we prove it?

There is an interesting phrase used often in the bible, "The faith of Jesus Christ", or His faith is what saves.

We are brought to the place of putting our faith in Him that is faithful.......the accomplished WORK of Jesus Christ is what saved, saves, and will save us.

Here is a good article on it.

http://scholarscorner.com/content/justified-faith-jesus-christ-not-ours

[Seth]

It's all a question of opportunity cost. If you're doing one thing, you're not doing another. We are, in my opinion, saved by completed faith alone.

Completed faith?

Saved only after we prove it?

There is an interesting phrase used often in the bible, "The faith of Jesus Christ", or His faith is what saves.

We are brought to the place of putting our faith in Him that is faithful.......the accomplished WORK of Jesus Christ is what saved, saves, and will save us.

Here is a good article on it.

http://scholarscorner.com/content/justified-faith-jesus-christ-not-ours

Well according to Apostle James, faith without works (not works of the Law) is dead, and Rahab was justified by works. So either Apostle James was right, or he was not right.

So, yes I believe that we are saved by completed faith alone, and that BOTH the faith and the completion of faith are from Christ and not our own.

[Seth]

BTW, the fact that it's not our own faith or our own completion of that faith is why I believe Paul said that some were predestined to be conformed to the image of Christ, not just predestined to believe, (Romans 8). He gives the faith, he does the completing.

When James literally says "you see, a man is justified by works and not by faith alone." I think you guys must think I'm just inventing that out of whole cloth. It's in your Bibles.

I know how the two-evangel folks explain it, but I can respect that they acknowledge the words are there. They just say those words are for someone else. The only other explanation I tend to see is to generalize his words to say that he just means works are good sometimes.

"A man...is justified...by works...and not...by faith...alone" - your Bible (i.e. not just Seth)

[Seth]

I challenge each of you in this conversation to say the words "a man justified by works and not by faith alone" out loud verbatim, with your voice. It's in your Bibles so there should be nothing wrong with saying it out loud.

[ed]

 :iagree:

James 2
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

Yes it is in there.

[Seth]

And Ed, I believe if you walked into almost any church and spoke that sentence out loud, you'd get alot of strange looks and a hundred reasons from elsewhere in the same Bible why they think that sentence is wrong.

[eaglesway]

Completed faith saves before any works are done by connection to Christ. The works will naturally proceed from the connection. All James is saying is that if nothing comes out of the faith, it is "in vain"- not real, or empty.

He is speaking of the evidence that our faith is real and using "justified" in the sense of "valid" or "real". He isnt teaching salvation by works. He is teachingvthatvsalvation is evidenced by works and fruit, same as Paul did.

[Seth]

Only that James defines completed faith as when works follow faith. Left unfollowed by works, faith is alone.

Seriously, I know that the sentence "by works a man is justified, and not by faith only" is difficult and not what we were taught and is certainly a hard pill to swallow for many Christians,

JAMES SAYS IT

I WILL SAY IT

"by works a man is justified and not by faith only."

This does not disagree with Paul who said that a man is not justified by works of the LAW.

So, if that sentence is not part of another evangel for other people, then we should have no shame in saying it verbatim "by works a man is justified and not by faith only"

If we cannot say those words directly out of the Bible then I think something is either wrong with that sentence, and should be taken out of the Bible, or there is something wrong with our own understanding, in my opinion.

[Seth]

Completed faith saves before any works are done by connection to Christ. The works will naturally proceed from the connection. All James is saying is that if nothing comes out of the faith, it is "in vain"- not real, or empty.

He is speaking of the evidence that our faith is real and using "justified" in the sense of "valid" or "real". He isnt teaching salvation by works. He is teachingvthatvsalvation is evidenced by works and fruit, same as Paul did.

Exactly! Faith without works isn't real faith!

[Seth]

BTW, it does not say "a man's faith is justified by works and not faith only."

It says A MAN is justified by works and not faith only.