In The Face of Perfection (or, who is it who requires a sacrifice?)

[Seth]

Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we[a] have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, 2 through whom we have gained access by faith into this grace in which we now stand. And we boast in the hope of the glory of God. 3 Not only so, but we[c] also glory in our sufferings, because we know that suffering produces perseverance; 4 perseverance, character; and character, hope. 5 And hope does not put us to shame, because God's love has been poured out into our hearts through the Holy Spirit, who has been given to us.

Hope does not put us to shame.
The Holy Spirit does not shame believers.

See that part about perseverance?

[Seth]

Check out Romans 2:6-8 for more about perseverance.

[dajomaco]

Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we[a] have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, 2 through whom we have gained access by faith into this grace in which we now stand. And we boast in the hope of the glory of God. 3 Not only so, but we[c] also glory in our sufferings, because we know that suffering produces perseverance; 4 perseverance, character; and character, hope. 5 And hope does not put us to shame, because God's love has been poured out into our hearts through the Holy Spirit, who has been given to us.

Hope does not put us to shame.
The Holy Spirit does not shame believers.

See that part about perseverance?

You mean this part of Romans2

You, therefore, have no excuse, you who pass judgment on someone else, for at whatever point you judge another, you are condemning yourself, because you who pass judgment do the same things. 2 Now we know that God's judgment against those who do such things is based on truth. 3 So when you, a mere human being, pass judgment on them and yet do the same things, do you think you will escape God's judgment? 4 Or do you show contempt for the riches of his kindness, forbearance and patience, not realizing that God's kindness is intended to lead you to repentance?

[Seth]

Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we[a] have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, 2 through whom we have gained access by faith into this grace in which we now stand. And we boast in the hope of the glory of God. 3 Not only so, but we[c] also glory in our sufferings, because we know that suffering produces perseverance; 4 perseverance, character; and character, hope. 5 And hope does not put us to shame, because God's love has been poured out into our hearts through the Holy Spirit, who has been given to us.

Hope does not put us to shame.
The Holy Spirit does not shame believers.

See that part about perseverance?

You mean this part of Romans2

You, therefore, have no excuse, you who pass judgment on someone else, for at whatever point you judge another, you are condemning yourself, because you who pass judgment do the same things. 2 Now we know that God's judgment against those who do such things is based on truth. 3 So when you, a mere human being, pass judgment on them and yet do the same things, do you think you will escape God's judgment? 4 Or do you show contempt for the riches of his kindness, forbearance and patience, not realizing that God's kindness is intended to lead you to repentance?

Well no it was the next three verses. These verses are describing the hypocrisy of those who trod the son of God underfoot. KEEP READING

[Seth]

Not everyone who believes has walked according to the Spirit. James made that call because he understood that the purpose of faith was to "have the love of God poured into our hearts by the Spirit." This is why he said "faith without works is dead."

That's the persistence Paul was talking about in Romans 2:6-7 which you didn't want to quote.

[eaglesway]

Sometimes words are insufficient.

There is a big difference between conviction and shame.

Shame used to simply mean a sense of having done wrong. Now it incorporates a more destructive meaning I think.

It is possible to believe the Holy Spirit brings repentance without shame, but with true remorse for ones actions and a sense of grieving an offense to a brother or sister or God Himself.

So I wonder Daj, is this what you are saying?

[sheila]

the bride blushes because she is naked before His all seeing eyes...and He being righteous covers that

nakedness with His own garment.

   in the jewish mindset..the Bride is pure and sanctified by the marriage/union..o rcovering of her husband..

   that is why it is 'granted' for her to be clothed in white[not of herself]......ever hear the term........

  virgin daughter of Babylon? is that not an oxymoron?

   He says...my people shall not be ashamed...because He covers them.....what takes the shame of nakedness

away like clothing?

[dajomaco]

Sometimes words are insufficient.

There is a big difference between conviction and shame.

Shame used to simply mean a sense of having done wrong. Now it incorporates a more destructive meaning I think.

It is possible to believe the Holy Spirit brings repentance without shame, but with true remorse for ones actions and a sense of grieving an offense to a brother or sister or God Himself.

So I wonder Daj, is this what you are saying?

No what I am saying is what Paul said in Romans
He repeats it to make a point

As it is written: "See, I lay in Zion a stone that causes people to stumble
and a rock that makes them fall, and the one who believes in him will never be put to shame."

The meaning of shame, the definition of shame that I use is the one Paul uses.

[Seth]

Sometimes words are insufficient.

There is a big difference between conviction and shame.

Shame used to simply mean a sense of having done wrong. Now it incorporates a more destructive meaning I think.

It is possible to believe the Holy Spirit brings repentance without shame, but with true remorse for ones actions and a sense of grieving an offense to a brother or sister or God Himself.

So I wonder Daj, is this what you are saying?

The bolded part is how I mean it. I think the publican clearly felt shame.

[Seth]

Sometimes words are insufficient.

There is a big difference between conviction and shame.

Shame used to simply mean a sense of having done wrong. Now it incorporates a more destructive meaning I think.

It is possible to believe the Holy Spirit brings repentance without shame, but with true remorse for ones actions and a sense of grieving an offense to a brother or sister or God Himself.

So I wonder Daj, is this what you are saying?

No what I am saying is what Paul said in Romans
He repeats it to make a point

As it is written: "See, I lay in Zion a stone that causes people to stumble
and a rock that makes them fall, and the one who believes in him will never be put to shame."

The meaning of shame, the definition of shame that I use is the one Paul uses.

However, faith without works is dead.

[Seth]

Websters definition

1 a :  a painful emotion caused by consciousness of guilt, shortcoming, or impropriety
b :  the susceptibility to such emotion <have you no shame?>
2:  a condition of humiliating disgrace or disrepute :  ignominy <the shame of being arrested>

2Thess 3
14And if any man obey not our word by this epistle, note that man, and have no company with him, that he may be ashamed. 15Yet count him not as an enemy, but admonish him as a brother.

[dajomaco]

the bride blushes because she is naked before His all seeing eyes...and He being righteous covers that

nakedness with His own garment.

   in the jewish mindset..the Bride is pure and sanctified by the marriage/union..o rcovering of her husband..

   that is why it is 'granted' for her to be clothed in white[not of herself]......ever hear the term........

  virgin daughter of Babylon? is that not an oxymoron?

   He says...my people shall not be ashamed...because He covers them.....what takes the shame of nakedness

away like clothing?

Adam and Eve hid at the idea of a Holy God looking upon their nakedness.
They did not have to trust that they were covered they wore the skins of the
animals God supplied.

It is still a very fearful thing to stand before a Holy God.
I am naked I was ashamed.
But the Holy spirit told me to believe that my nakedness was covered
God himself had supplied my covering.
Have FAITH go to him call him Abba.
The Holy spirit encourages me to go right into the throne room.
But I can't look at my own nakedness .
I must by no means what so ever cover myself.
The battle is for my mind I must go before HIM in faith.I must believe the  Holy Spirit LOVES me and is not setting me up to expose me
and cause me to be too ashamed to go to the THRONE room.
MY father loves me and does not shame me.
His discipline is perfect.   

[Seth]

The battle is for my mind I must go before HIM in faith.I must believe the  Holy Spirit LOVES me and is not setting me up to expose me
and cause me to be too ashamed to go to the THRONE room.

You are going beyond what I am actually saying. The above is a straw man. I never said that the Spirit "setting us up to expose us."

A feeling of shame is NATURAL for those who do horrible things, whether they are believers or not. People who feel NO shame about doing bad things to other people, believers or not, are called SOCIOPATHS by the psychology community. Jesus is not calling us to be sociopaths.

[rosered]

Sometimes words are insufficient.

There is a big difference between conviction and shame.

Shame used to simply mean a sense of having done wrong. Now it incorporates a more destructive meaning I think.

It is possible to believe the Holy Spirit brings repentance without shame, but with true remorse for ones actions and a sense of grieving an offense to a brother or sister or God Himself.

So I wonder Daj, is this what you are saying?

No what I am saying is what Paul said in Romans
He repeats it to make a point

As it is written: "See, I lay in Zion a stone that causes people to stumble
and a rock that makes them fall, and the one who believes in him will never be put to shame."

The meaning of shame, the definition of shame that I use is the one Paul uses.

However, faith without works is dead.

  Yes,  I hear this Seth ,
  but Brother
  its seems works without faith is  just ''dead works''  right ?

   Who does the  works  but the Lord    Himself !!
Its the Spirit of Christ the true anointing that     make the works  greater because He went to the Father
  and greater works will you do because I go the Father      and what proof   do we have   in this  the HOLY SPIRIT / GREAT CLOUD OF WITNESSES
  For me its the Father & Son and Holy Spirit    those gathered as His Holy ones and witnesses whom testify      in the heavens       to the   righteousness of Jesus Christ   ALIVE  in the earth    still        :girlheart:

[rosered]

the bride blushes because she is naked before His all seeing eyes...and He being righteous covers that

nakedness with His own garment.

   in the jewish mindset..the Bride is pure and sanctified by the marriage/union..o rcovering of her husband..

   that is why it is 'granted' for her to be clothed in white[not of herself]......ever hear the term........

  virgin daughter of Babylon? is that not an oxymoron?

   He says...my people shall not be ashamed...because He covers them.....what takes the shame of nakedness

away like clothing?

Adam and Eve hid at the idea of a Holy God looking upon their nakedness.
They did not have to trust that they were covered they wore the skins of the
animals God supplied.

It is still a very fearful thing to stand before a Holy God.
I am naked I was ashamed.
But the Holy spirit told me to believe that my nakedness was covered
God himself had supplied my covering.
Have FAITH go to him call him Abba.
The Holy spirit encourages me to go right into the throne room.
But I can't look at my own nakedness .
I must by no means what so ever cover myself.
The battle is for my mind I must go before HIM in faith.I must believe the  Holy Spirit LOVES me and is not setting me up to expose me
and cause me to be too ashamed to go to the THRONE room.
MY father loves me and does not shame me.
His discipline is perfect.   

  hI  BRO D!!   

     Buy of me   Jesus is the cure to all that ails     us  every one of us ,,,

   Rev 3 17'Because you say, "I am rich, and have become wealthy, and have need of nothing," and you do not know that you are wretched and miserable and poor and blind and naked,


18   I advise you to buy from Me gold refined by fire so that you may become rich, and white garments so that you may clothe yourself, and that the shame of your nakedness will not be revealed; and eye salve to anoint your eyes so that you may see.

19'Those whom I love, I reprove and discipline; therefore be zealous and repent.
  Brother Jesus  paid it all   and though His death we become  heirs to    know the glory of God and inherit     all things that are His !! 

  :HeartThrob:

[dajomaco]

Websters definition

1 a :  a painful emotion caused by consciousness of guilt, shortcoming, or impropriety
b :  the susceptibility to such emotion <have you no shame?>
2:  a condition of humiliating disgrace or disrepute :  ignominy <the shame of being arrested>

2Thess 3
14And if any man obey not our word by this epistle, An unbeliever  note that man, and have no company with him, that he may be ashamed. 15Yet count him not as an enemy, but admonish him as a brother.

[Seth]

Sometimes words are insufficient.

There is a big difference between conviction and shame.

Shame used to simply mean a sense of having done wrong. Now it incorporates a more destructive meaning I think.

It is possible to believe the Holy Spirit brings repentance without shame, but with true remorse for ones actions and a sense of grieving an offense to a brother or sister or God Himself.

So I wonder Daj, is this what you are saying?

No what I am saying is what Paul said in Romans
He repeats it to make a point

As it is written: "See, I lay in Zion a stone that causes people to stumble
and a rock that makes them fall, and the one who believes in him will never be put to shame."

The meaning of shame, the definition of shame that I use is the one Paul uses.

However, faith without works is dead.

  Yes,  I hear this Seth ,
  but Brother
  its seems works without faith is  just "dead works"  right ?

   Who does the  works  but the Lord    Himself !!
Its the Spirit of Christ the true anointing that     make the works  greater because He went to the Father
  and greater works will you do because I go the Father      and what proof   do we have   in this  the HOLY SPIRIT / GREAT CLOUD OF WITNESSES
  For me its the Father & Son and Holy Spirit    those gathered as His Holy ones and witnesses whom testify      in the heavens       to the   righteousness of Jesus Christ   ALIVE  in the earth    still        :girlheart:

:iagree:

They are works of the Spirit within. For it is God in you both to will and to do of his pleasure.

[Seth]

Websters definition

1 a :  a painful emotion caused by consciousness of guilt, shortcoming, or impropriety
b :  the susceptibility to such emotion <have you no shame?>
2:  a condition of humiliating disgrace or disrepute :  ignominy <the shame of being arrested>

2Thess 3
14And if any man obey not our word by this epistle, An unbeliever  note that man, and have no company with him, that he may be ashamed. 15Yet count him not as an enemy, but admonish him as a brother.

Why are you changing the context?

6 Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the tradition which he received of us.


That's what happens when brothers become verbally abusive on this forum. They get restricted or banned. That's exactly what this epistle calls for.

[dajomaco]

The battle is for my mind I must go before HIM in faith.I must believe the  Holy Spirit LOVES me and is not setting me up to expose me
and cause me to be too ashamed to go to the THRONE room.

You are going beyond what I am actually saying. The above is a straw man. I never said that the Spirit "setting us up to expose us."

A feeling of shame is NATURAL for those who do horrible things, whether they are believers or not. People who feel NO shame about doing bad things to other people, believers or not, are called SOCIOPATHS by the psychology community. Jesus is not calling us to be sociopaths.

Way back in this thread I asked
Does the Holy Spirit use shame to convict the believer of Sin?I do not believe that he does.
You seem to disagree, am I wrong

[Seth]

The battle is for my mind I must go before HIM in faith.I must believe the  Holy Spirit LOVES me and is not setting me up to expose me
and cause me to be too ashamed to go to the THRONE room.

You are going beyond what I am actually saying. The above is a straw man. I never said that the Spirit "setting us up to expose us."

A feeling of shame is NATURAL for those who do horrible things, whether they are believers or not. People who feel NO shame about doing bad things to other people, believers or not, are called SOCIOPATHS by the psychology community. Jesus is not calling us to be sociopaths.

Way back in this thread I asked
Does the Holy Spirit use shame to convict the believer of Sin?I do not believe that he does.
You seem to disagree, am I wrong

And I still say yes. That does not mean that I think the Spirit "sets us up." The LAW brought a remembrance of sin. Who wrote that? God reveals sin to the sinner, and if they have a conscience, they feel shame. Then they repent.

Conviction and shame are the same thing. Your question is essentially "does the Holy Spirit use conviction to convict the believer of sin"

[sheila]

idk..there always seems to be an exception to every 'rule' can't help thinking of the legion possessed man

  running around naked among the tombs,slashing himself  -out of his ever-loving mind..not enough

sense about him..to be ashamed..I can't help but think Jesus and Father has that situation covered,too.

   Love covers a multitude of sins

[Seth]

Yes, he was out of his mind.

Although, 6But when he saw Jesus afar off, he ran and worshipped him, 7And cried with a loud voice, and said, What have I to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of the most high God? I adjure thee by God, that thou torment me not.

What would cause the man to say that?

The sense of shame I see in Romans 7 is of one who is carnal sold under sin and try to follow the law for salvation. One who cannot help but be carnal when he is under the Law, but still cries out for mercy from his condition.

[rosered]

idk..there always seems to be an exception to every 'rule' can't help thinking of the legion possessed man

  running around naked among the tombs,slashing himself  -out of his ever-loving mind..not enough

sense about him..to be ashamed..I can't help but think Jesus and Father has that situation covered,too.

   Love covers a multitude of sins

  I believe your   right   Sis !!!  excellent point    taken ,     No cookie cutter   god  in any  form or fashion      ,,
   the GOD ALMIGHTY   , Knows how to save everyone    of   His children   in every way   , unimaginable ways even !!! 
Will GLORY TO GOD in the Highest!!!  :HeartThrob:

[Seth]

Also notice that Jesus didn't just save him from his personal feelings but from that which caused those feelings in the first place.

[rosered]

Also notice that Jesus didn't just save him from his personal feelings but from that which caused those feelings in the first place.

  Yes     Bro Seth   the     wrong mind to   the     right mind  :thumbsup:  an unclean spirit is an unregenerate   spirit  not reforming or showing repentance; obstinately wrong or bad.


(Matthew 8:28-34; Luke 8:26-39)

1And they came to the other side of the sea, to the region of the Gadarenes, 2and he having come forth out of the boat, immediately there met him out of the tombs a man with an unclean spirit,

3who had his dwelling in the tombs, and not even with chains was any one able to bind him,


4because that he many times with fetters and chains had been bound, and pulled in pieces by him had been the chains, and the fetters broken in pieces, and none was able to tame him,

5and always, night and day, in the mountains, and in the tombs he was, crying and cutting himself with stones.


6And, having seen Jesus from afar, he ran and bowed before him,


7and having called with a loud voice, he said, 'What — to me and to thee, Jesus, Son of God the Most High?


I adjure thee by God, mayest thou not afflict me!' 8(for he said to him, 'Come forth, spirit unclean, out of the man,')


9and he was questioning him, 'What [is] thy name?' and he answered, saying, 'Legion [is] my name, because we are many;'


10and he was calling on him much, that he may not send them out of the region.


11And there was there, near the mountains, a great herd of swine feeding,


12and all the demons did call upon him, saying, 'Send us to the swine, that into them we may enter;'


13and immediately Jesus gave them leave, and having come forth, the unclean spirits did enter into the swine,


and the herd did rush down the steep place to the sea — and they were about two thousand — and they were choked in the sea.


The question of the hour is this ,,      Does   the demonic exist ?       or was the Lord just casting out       an evil presence in this man   so He could be saved  ?

  So much      just about this         causes  great divisions        in the religious   and mystic    masses