A verse that slams free will

[Eduard]

I know, O LORD, that the way of man is not in himself, that it is not in man who walks to direct his steps. Jeremiah 10:23

[mplsfitter539]

Kudos Eduard,

I like when I read a verse and it has new meaning. I must remember this one when someone tells me that men have free will and God is too much of a gentleman to trespass against our free will.

[Eduard]

 :thumbsup:

Not exactly in context, but God is also no respector of persons.

[mplsfitter539]

:thumbsup:

Not exactly in context, but God is also no respector of persons.

Romans 2
11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

This is the one that I use with people who believe that the Jews have the law and Gentiles have grace. God doesn't  choose the Jew over the Gentile simply because of race or religion because he has no respect of Jew or Gentile. God does not even see Jews, Gentiles, Muslims, Buddhist, Hindi, or whatever, He only sees His children who are misbehaving terribly to say the least.

DuWayne

[Eduard]

And no Father will let His children do only what they please, there will be chastising and of course reconciliation. :2c:

[jbertonbounds]

I know, O LORD, that the way of man is not in himself, that it is not in man who walks to direct his steps. Jeremiah 10:23

Excellent scripture reference to back up limited will (is that how you say the opposite of "free will"?).  I have been thinking about free-will over the last several days, and this thread seems to be right down my alley today.  We don't have free-will because we are incapable of making ANY decisions that are not affected by a multiplicity of other factors.  God designed us to make choices based on past experiences and personal preferences.  I like green because I prefer cool colors, and pink reminds me of Pepto Bismol and sour stomach.  I don't eat grubs because my culture has always taught me to say "YUK!" at the very thought.  Many people, especially men, fall into the sins of sexual lust because we are designed to seek mates, and it's difficult to remain faithful to just one woman.  God designed us that way for a purpose.  That is definitely NOT free will.  We have limited will.

[jedi1989]

Psalms 139:16- "Your eyes saw my unformed body; all the days ordained for me were written in your book before one of them came to be."
This one I think is very very clear.  :thumbsup:

[Eduard]

May the Force (God) be with you  :winkgrin:

[rjohnson741]

The unbiblical doctrine of free will:

Free will---''The power of directing our own actions, without restraint by necessity or fate. Spontaneous'' New Webster's Expanded Dictionary. 2005 Edition.

Biblical will---''A man's heart deviseth his way: but the Lord directs his steps'' Proverbs 16:9.

[Eduard]

The irony is that you will find more unbiblical things in the church than anywhere else.

[mplsfitter539]

The irony is that you will find more unbiblical things in the church than anywhere else.

Just like our old friend Martin Zender said and I quote.... If the church is preaching it believe the opposite to be the truth. Sort of like anti-christ is the antithesis of Yeshua.

[jabcat]

I really like these scrips, thanks.

I differ from Martin and some others on that.  I don't believe absolutely everything "the church" teaches is wrong.  I believe that's an over-statement.  I don't believe we need to disrespectfully throw out the baby with bathwater.  IMO, there are many things the church teaches (most brands) that is true, while many things are not and/or are questionable.  So I believe discernment, being led by the Spirit as we look to Jesus is tantamount.   As a brief example,  I'll name a few things "the church" generally teaches that I believe are true.

Jesus is the Son of God
Jesus died and rose again for our sins
Belief in Him - and His atonement - saves us
Jesus was born of a virgin
God created the heavens and the earth
John the Baptist was the forerunner of Jesus
Jesus gave the commandment to love
Speak the truth in love
Jesus will return, etc., etc.

IMO, it is that some of the details, interpretation, understandings are different - what it all means and how it all happens - but again, that's why there's a need for both love and discernment.  That's my understanding anyway.  Blessings, James.

[Graph1159]

I don't really know how the sovereignty of God, the will of man, and the dominion of Satan over this world/eon all work together. I'm afraid that if I try to explain all of this, I will end up oversimplifying things that are really beyond my comprehension. But, regardless of what one teaches on these matters, if the teaching is correct, people will object to it with the objection predicted by Paul in Romans 9:19, "You will say to me then, 'Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?'" As Martin Zender has stated, the objector should be given credit for at least understanding the point. If one's teaching on human will and the sovereignty of God would never inspire this objection, the message isn't what Paul taught.

Samuel

[OneThing]

I really like these scrips, thanks.

I differ from Martin and some others on that.  I don't believe absolutely everything "the church" teaches is wrong.  I believe that's an over-statement.  I don't believe we need to disrespectfully throw out the baby with bathwater.  IMO, there are many things the church teaches (most brands) that is true, while many things are not and/or are questionable.  So I believe discernment, being led by the Spirit as we look to Jesus is tantamount.   As a brief example,  I'll name a few things "the church" generally teaches that I believe are true.

Jesus is the Son of God
Jesus died and rose again for our sins
Belief in Him - and His atonement - saves us
Jesus was born of a virgin
God created the heavens and the earth
John the Baptist was the forerunner of Jesus
Jesus gave the commandment to love
Speak the truth in love
Jesus will return, etc., etc.

IMO, it is that some of the details, interpretation, understandings are different - what it all means and how it all happens - but again, that's why there's a need for both love and discernment.  That's my understanding anyway.  Blessings, James.

jabcat thank you so much for sharing your understanding in such an edifying manner...ministering grace unto the hearers. (Eph 4:29-32)  I also thought of the Scripture , from Proverbs (?) that states something to the effect that good news from a far country (well, Missouri is not far, far ) is like cold water to the thirsty... and I was thirsty... and you gave me to drink...  May His peace, grace, love reign in your mind and heart.  Anna

[lastpost]

I really like these scrips, thanks.

I differ from Martin and some others on that.  I don't believe absolutely everything "the church" teaches is wrong.  I believe that's an over-statement.  I don't believe we need to disrespectfully throw out the baby with bathwater.  IMO, there are many things the church teaches (most brands) that is true, while many things are not and/or are questionable.  So I believe discernment, being led by the Spirit as we look to Jesus is tantamount.   As a brief example,  I'll name a few things "the church" generally teaches that I believe are true.

Jesus is the Son of God
Jesus died and rose again for our sins
Belief in Him - and His atonement - saves us
Jesus was born of a virgin
God created the heavens and the earth
John the Baptist was the forerunner of Jesus
Jesus gave the commandment to love
Speak the truth in love
Jesus will return, etc., etc.

IMO, it is that some of the details, interpretation, understandings are different - what it all means and how it all happens - but again, that's why there's a need for both love and discernment.  That's my understanding anyway.  Blessings, James.

jabcat thank you so much for sharing your understanding in such an edifying manner...ministering grace unto the hearers. (Eph 4:29-32)  I also thought of the Scripture , from Proverbs (?) that states something to the effect that good news from a far country (well, Missouri is not far, far ) is like cold water to the thirsty... and I was thirsty... and you gave me to drink...  May His peace, grace, love reign in your mind and heart.  Anna

Thank you dear jabcat and dear OneThing for revealing some Christian Spirit.

I could not decide which of these pairs of lines to choose so I chose both...

Proverbs 2
8 He keepeth the paths of judgment, and preserveth the way of the merciful.
9 Then shalt thou understand righteousness, and judgment, and equity; yea, every good path.

Proverbs 3
5 Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.
6 In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths.

[shawn]

I want my children to learn and grow.  I allow them to make choices.  I give them a healthy allowance so they can make mistakes with it and learn.  I allow them to experience consequences under my watchful eye, and come to their aid when it's too much.  I am trying to mature my children by allowing them to navigate life within certain constraints dictated by me.  Do my children have free will?  No, they have a limited will within the boundaries I set.  There are certain lines I won't allow them to cross, certain waters they are too young and immature to navigate.

This is how I understand our will.  IMO, we do not have free will, nor does God cause me to sin.  I have a limited will within the confines and boundaries God sets before me.  Within them I learn and grow.  That is how I understand will today.

[lastpost]

"Love thine enemies" – I can hate them if I choose or I can love them if I choose. Both extremes of choice are open to me.

"Turn the other cheek" – I can hit back after being hit or I can turn the other cheek – both extremes are open to me to choose.

However, because I love the Author of those words it would hurt me to oppose His will.

[Warhawk17]

I really like these scrips, thanks.

I differ from Martin and some others on that.  I don't believe absolutely everything "the church" teaches is wrong.  I believe that's an over-statement.  I don't believe we need to disrespectfully throw out the baby with bathwater.  IMO, there are many things the church teaches (most brands) that is true, while many things are not and/or are questionable.  So I believe discernment, being led by the Spirit as we look to Jesus is tantamount.   As a brief example,  I'll name a few things "the church" generally teaches that I believe are true.

Jesus is the Son of God
Jesus died and rose again for our sins
Belief in Him - and His atonement - saves us
Jesus was born of a virgin
God created the heavens and the earth
John the Baptist was the forerunner of Jesus
Jesus gave the commandment to love
Speak the truth in love
Jesus will return, etc., etc.

IMO, it is that some of the details, interpretation, understandings are different - what it all means and how it all happens - but again, that's why there's a need for both love and discernment.  That's my understanding anyway.  Blessings, James.

Jabcat, I also have to disagree with Zender on that point. The organized church does get plenty of things right, but they also get plenty of it wrong. That is why it is so deceptive, and Satan uses that deception to keep people in bondage. If they were wrong about everything, then there would be no deception. But in a Catholic sermon (I'm sure it is the same for any other church), the preacher will say something true one minute like "God is in complete control of our lives," then a minute later contradict himself by saying something like "We need to choose to follow Christ to obtain salvation."

[lastpost]

Christ has redeemed all and this shall be witnessed by all in due time.

Yet: "Be not deceived, God is not mocked, whatsoever a man sows that (touto) he shall reap" (Gal.6:7) – and this is directed to early followers of Christ.

If an individual claiming that name still chooses to sow in the lesser self of the flesh rather than choosing to sow in the higher self of the Spirit under the guiding and regenerating influences of the Holy Spirit, then he or she will reap corruption - which I personally accept to mean that the continual reaping of the sowing in the flesh causes the spiritual body to become "corrupted" or grotesquely distorted accordingly:

"For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to (eis => into, towards) the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap aeonian life" (Gal.6:8).

Therefore, regardless of how someone perceives spiritual redemption, I think we play into the enemy's hands if we lessen in any way such a warning about the abuse or right use of choice, i.e. to choose to sow in the flesh by listening to the councils of the enemy or to sow in the Spirit by and through the grace of God.

The apostle wrote that letter for a reason. Man might be fooled but God is not mocked. Yet, should this all sound too grave, the message from the apostle continues by stating:

"And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not..." (Gal.6:9)

I personally believe this to mean that the spiritual body of one who continually sows in the Spirit and therefore reaps in the Spirit is so spiritually healthy that accordingly its owner will experience a degree of spiritual life so beyond human experience that words could not even begin to describe the type of happiness and joy and love in store for such a one.


Peace and Joy.

[mplsfitter539]

Jabcat, I also have to disagree with Zender on that point. The organized church does get plenty of things right, but they also get plenty of it wrong. That is why it is so deceptive, and Satan uses that deception to keep people in bondage. If they were wrong about everything, then there would be no deception. But in a Catholic sermon (I'm sure it is the same for any other church), the preacher will say something true one minute like "God is in complete control of our lives," then a minute later contradict himself by saying something like "We need to choose to follow Christ to obtain salvation."

How can the organized church get anything right if they are worshiping a trinity? Our God is not a trinity therefore if that is what they worship than they have it all wrong. IMO if you get one part wrong you have it all wrong especially when it comes to something that big. I will not ignore the churches pagan practices with a wink. The Christ will abolish all religion when he returns and the church will begin to understand that they had many many things wrong. The church is not the ekklesia.

[jbertonbounds]

The irony is that you will find more unbiblical things in the church than anywhere else.

:iagree:

[jbertonbounds]

I really like these scrips, thanks.

I differ from Martin and some others on that.  I don't believe absolutely everything "the church" teaches is wrong.  I believe that's an over-statement.  I don't believe we need to disrespectfully throw out the baby with bathwater.  IMO, there are many things the church teaches (most brands) that is true, while many things are not and/or are questionable.  So I believe discernment, being led by the Spirit as we look to Jesus is tantamount.   As a brief example,  I'll name a few things "the church" generally teaches that I believe are true.

Jesus is the Son of God
Jesus died and rose again for our sins
Belief in Him - and His atonement - saves us
Jesus was born of a virgin
God created the heavens and the earth
John the Baptist was the forerunner of Jesus
Jesus gave the commandment to love
Speak the truth in love
Jesus will return, etc., etc.

IMO, it is that some of the details, interpretation, understandings are different - what it all means and how it all happens - but again, that's why there's a need for both love and discernment.  That's my understanding anyway.  Blessings, James.

What the man says is true.  Yet, the doctrines of virtually all churches out there contain a pervasive distortion brought about by trying to reconcile the word of God to the human concept of hell.  That's why I left the organized church.  This teaching of distorted doctrine in an organized church becomes a trap that is so deep that only God can rescue you from it, as many of you have experienced. 

The churches do much good work in their communities, and we need not forget that.  There are plenty of these churches in our own communities, giving us plenty of opportunity to share the truth with members of these church organizations.  God did not call us out to be shy about the gospel of victory.  We need to speak boldly to people as God gives us the opportunities, and hopefully many of those may be church people.  The more you share it, the easier it becomes.  If we get rejected, or the truth gets rejected, that's OK.  It not about us.  Be encouraged, we will receive our reward! 

If you don't feel like you have enough opportunity to share the gospel of victory, ASK GOD FOR OPPORTUNITIES AND A SPIRIT OF BOLDNESS!

:2c:

[jbertonbounds]

I want my children to learn and grow.  I allow them to make choices.  I give them a healthy allowance so they can make mistakes with it and learn.  I allow them to experience consequences under my watchful eye, and come to their aid when it's too much.  I am trying to mature my children by allowing them to navigate life within certain constraints dictated by me.  Do my children have free will?  No, they have a limited will within the boundaries I set.  There are certain lines I won't allow them to cross, certain waters they are too young and immature to navigate.

This is how I understand our will.  IMO, we do not have free will, nor does God cause me to sin.  I have a limited will within the confines and boundaries God sets before me.  Within them I learn and grow.  That is how I understand will today.

I LOVE IT!

[jbertonbounds]

Jabcat, I also have to disagree with Zender on that point. The organized church does get plenty of things right, but they also get plenty of it wrong. That is why it is so deceptive, and Satan uses that deception to keep people in bondage. If they were wrong about everything, then there would be no deception. But in a Catholic sermon (I'm sure it is the same for any other church), the preacher will say something true one minute like "God is in complete control of our lives," then a minute later contradict himself by saying something like "We need to choose to follow Christ to obtain salvation."

How can the organized church get anything right if they are worshiping a trinity? Our God is not a trinity therefore if that is what they worship than they have it all wrong. IMO if you get one part wrong you have it all wrong especially when it comes to something that big. I will not ignore the churches pagan practices with a wink. The Christ will abolish all religion when he returns and the church will begin to understand that they had many many things wrong. The church is not the ekklesia.

Dear Brother,
Let us not forget that none of us are yet perfected, and none of us have perfect wisdom and understanding.  I would venture to say that we all have something wrong as of yet.  But that does not mean that we do not have it all wrong.  We can only see what the Father reveals to us.  If we ever say that we have it all right, then we are no longer fit to receive God's truths, because at that point we become one of the "wise and learned" instead of little children.

Luke 10:21
From the ESV Study Bible: [ Jesus Rejoices in the Father's Will ] In that same hour he rejoiced in the Holy Spirit and said, "I thank you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that you have hidden these things from the wise and understanding and revealed them to little children; yes, Father, for such was your gracious will.
:HeartThrob:

[jedi1989]

Jabcat, I also have to disagree with Zender on that point. The organized church does get plenty of things right, but they also get plenty of it wrong. That is why it is so deceptive, and Satan uses that deception to keep people in bondage. If they were wrong about everything, then there would be no deception. But in a Catholic sermon (I'm sure it is the same for any other church), the preacher will say something true one minute like "God is in complete control of our lives," then a minute later contradict himself by saying something like "We need to choose to follow Christ to obtain salvation."

How can the organized church get anything right if they are worshiping a trinity? Our God is not a trinity therefore if that is what they worship than they have it all wrong. IMO if you get one part wrong you have it all wrong especially when it comes to something that big. I will not ignore the churches pagan practices with a wink. The Christ will abolish all religion when he returns and the church will begin to understand that they had many many things wrong. The church is not the ekklesia.

Dear Brother,
Let us not forget that none of us are yet perfected, and none of us have perfect wisdom and understanding.  I would venture to say that we all have something wrong as of yet.  But that does not mean that we do not have it all wrong.  We can only see what the Father reveals to us.  If we ever say that we have it all right, then we are no longer fit to receive God's truths, because at that point we become one of the "wise and learned" instead of little children.

Luke 10:21
From the ESV Study Bible: [ Jesus Rejoices in the Father's Will ] In that same hour he rejoiced in the Holy Spirit and said, "I thank you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that you have hidden these things from the wise and understanding and revealed them to little children; yes, Father, for such was your gracious will.
:HeartThrob:

:iagree:
a grateful heart is a beautiful heart.  :HeartThrob:
Since non of us believe in free will, we must also realize that is by God's grace that we have come to see more of His true face and purpose rather than through a veil. So let us be humble (I have admittedly, problems in this area also, the "I know more therefore I am greater" tendency).  We have to keep reminding ourselves that we were called to love, not to exalt ourselves above others.