A verse that slams free will

[mplsfitter539]

John,

I agree with your last post but to clear up the obvious confusion about my post I did not say the we or I have it all right. The church for the most part is pagan with few (very few) truths. If you worship a god who is a trinity then you worship a different god. There are many false gods and most of them are a trinity but not our God. I am aware there are few churches (very few) that do not worship the false trinity doctrine. If our God is not a trinity than they aren't worshiping our God period. Sorry for the confusion.

[dajomaco]

imo this is meat.
only I AM can say I WILL. 

[lastpost]

Matt.5: 23,24 Therefore if thou bring thy gift to the altar, and there rememberest that thy brother hath ought against thee; leave there thy gift before the altar, and go thy way; first be reconciled to thy brother, and then come and offer thy gift.

Matt.5: 23,24 Therefore if thou bring thy gift to the altar, and there rememberest that thy brother hath ought against thee; (choose to) leave there thy gift before the altar, and go thy way; first (choose to) be reconciled to thy brother, and then come and (choose to) offer thy gift.

The result will ultimately be achieved but some may take longer to choose to follow God's will than others.

[dajomaco]

We don't offer gifts at the temple altar here any more.
Jesus and his gift of grace was left at the alter after he be first reconciled to me.
   

[lastpost]

Dear friend, thank you for responding. This, as you know, is from a Sermon containing a whole series of moral teachings rather than "law" teachings – and teachings that required a person to become actively involved using their ability to chose, no less.

For instance, "But I say unto you, (choose to) Love your enemies, (choose to) bless them that curse you, (choose to) do good to them that hate you, and (choose to) pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you".

Does this no longer apply because Christ was still alive in the flesh when He spoke it? I think not.

In the same sense it seems to me that for a person to choose not to be reconciled to his brother before he offers his gift to God is a teaching that transcends the example – it is a Christ principle indeed applicable as much today as it was in the yesterday as it will be in the tomorrow.

[dajomaco]

For instance, "But I say unto you, (choose to) Love your enemies, (choose to) bless them that curse you, (choose to) do good to them that hate you, and (choose to) pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you".

Jesus spoke the words he heard his father speak to him.

Jesus gave up or should I say submitted his free will to the Father.
The sacrifices of LOVE perfected in GOD
In my opinion I am left no distraction or requirements.
I am free to choose whom I LOVE for this is the reason I have been set free. 

[marie glen]

Even limited 'free' will is imperfect.. Even the murderer, has perhaps things which were done to him or her, which brought them to where they are..

However, it's still not true to say the murderer had no choice..

But.. when it comes to salvation (and perhaps denomination?) I believe mankind has no 'free' will at all.. (that certainly cancels out all boasting?)

"Ye shall know them by their fruit".. I find myself very much zealous for accurate doctrine. But if I expect to find it here, on the present planet earth, where "the god of this world" so very much fills the atmosphere with tons and tons of heavy, untrue things.. I think I will be very disappointed, but I try to "judge not" and be very zealous above all, concerning my own perceptions and doctrine. Except perhaps when it comes to the world, then I can't help but speak up!

To my way of thinking many "churches" are losing much when they compromise with the world concerning the Word of God. Agreeing with the popular cultural idea that origins took millions of years to accomplish and not only that, but this means death existed from the 'beginning' and is not the result of sin and imperfection. (God hedged the truth! as if!) Genesis, therefor, is simply metaphor or myth.

These churches are losing their young folks in droves. People want and need a faith they can get their teeth into. Compromising with the world, is the exact opposite.. waters it all down.. til it is worth nothing but to be spit out.. I personally hate it, that instead of "the lion and lamb will dwell peacably, the lion  will eat straw like the ox, the bear will graze with the cow" has become instead the Kingdom as a sort of floaty 'afterlife'. Take away paradise, the original blueprint restored (or anything else out of God's Word) and you lose the interest of millions.. Who can get their teeth into milk toast like that!? But, the measure of how close to God one is, is more "fruit" than "doctrine".. No matter how much false doctrine may drive moi crazy!

Galatians 5:19-22, Amplified Bible

"Now the doings (practices) of the flesh are clear (obvious): they are immorality, impurity, indecency, idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, anger (ill temper), selfishness, divisions (dissensions), party spirit (factions, sects with peculiar opinions, heresies), envy, drunkenness, carousing, and the like. I warn you beforehand, just as I did previously, that those who do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God." -- as long as one does these they are not "in the Kingdom" but are "in the flesh" (Personally, with me "ill temper" rears its ugly head from time to time, especially when Quiet times are squeezed out, an ongoing battle.) "But the fruit of the [Holy] Spirit [the work which His presence within accomplishes] is love, joy (gladness), peace, patience (an even temper, forbearance), kindness, goodness (benevolence), faithfulness"

This part - divisions (dissensions), party spirit (factions, sects with peculiar or particular? opinions)

tells me denominationalism itself is outside of the Kingdom, not that it makes all of us unsaved! (I say all, because U.R. is still another group, though it may have more things 'right' than most.)
Surely we all make countless choices everyday, but when it comes to whom is saved when.. involves no 'free' will at all, imho. :2c:

[dajomaco]

These churches are losing their young folks in droves.  :dsunny: :Peace2:

[jbertonbounds]

These churches are losing their young folks in droves.  :dsunny: :Peace2:

I believe this is part of Yahweh's plan.
Could it be that God is preparing the world to receive the truth about UR?

[marie glen]

Perhaps.. but whenever I've read about the falling away it hasn't been in good context..

I should have written the young folks are leaving the faith in Christ in droves..

I WISH I could believe it's in preparation for the fuLL gospel /Good news!!

[lastpost]

God has ordained that all perfected life shall be in all beings. That is a preordained result – and, I believe, is achieved by the ongoing work of the Saviour Christ – He has driven His stake into the Earth and the Earth and all the heavens shall shake until all is achieved, and He even affects the hearts and minds of those who do not claim to follow Him.

Unfortunately, evil spirits get such a grip on the children of the Earth that a shock to their system is the only way to shake off that evil and then Christ gets His chance with them. There is no other way to put it – it is a terrible war against the power of evil.

The God who is Love has indeed conquered all and the result is now assured. And yet prowling spirits are at large influencing the children of God to perform evil acts, even those who know Christ as the Saviour, especially those who know Christ as the Saviour – they look for moments when the children of God are off their guard and seek to bend their thoughts: "It is fine to do this, you are allowed to do that because everybody else does it, why shouldn't you have what the world has to offer? Chase after it, chase after it, nothing you do is a sin, there is no such thing as sin for you, take it all freely, nobody said you cannot have it all...".

Words are fine things, evil cannot affect the mind say the words – yet I would say, I hope in all humility, that those words have already been affected by evil. Only by seeking to be with Christ or God (and to me they cannot be separated) throughout this earthly sojourn can the mind be protected from the influence of evil. If the child of God had not been off their guard they would have been protected.

The world is blind to fallen and debased spirits: the world locks people away as "mentally ill" and indeed they are, but the most highly trained psychiatrists do not have a clue as to the host or hosts to whom the owner of the mind of the body has handed over control of the mind. If they could see them they would be so frightened that they could not even move – and yet the world sneers at anyone who believes such things.

The Master Christ made certain that His recorded teachings included references to obsession and possession. I am not persuaded by any words that say wicked spirits existed then and not now – they are everywhere – but thank God so is He everywhere and the angels of God are with Him too. But how will the children of the Earth respond to the unseen life that is around them? Who will they listen to? Yes, it is that fine a point in many cases I believe – who will the child of the Earth, in their blindness, choose to listen to? Preordained some might say, although I would not – but I do not care about philosophical points in this context – the child of God is loved by God and He seeks and seeks until the lost sheep is found and He would rather His child listens to Him and not a dark and hateful spirit seeking to cause as much misery as possible.

The battle goes on – it is no use giving up, one must always be aware. Personally I sometimes chant silently the holy names associated with the Saviour God as One who is a Companion, as I go throughout the day. Only through time and experience have I discovered the sheer power of this because so much is unseen and hidden it is hard to detect the effect.

So yes, we know Christ is the Saviour of all and this shall be testified in due time, but I would say that the more aware we are of the evil around then the more we play our part. I do not lessen the reality of the war with evil by wrapping it all up into a package of fact that the result is preordained by God and achieved through His Christ and so there is nothing to do. No, there is plenty that we are called to do.

I apologise for taking this direction in this subject if it does not fit in with the beliefs of others, I do not like upsetting people whose motives are healthy but I do find that for some of God's children they need to be – if not made aware of then reminded of - how real are debased spirits seeking to harm...

...And of course how real is the loving Father God who forever is seeking to protect.

Peace.

[jedi1989]

I really like these scrips, thanks.

I differ from Martin and some others on that.  I don't believe absolutely everything "the church" teaches is wrong.  I believe that's an over-statement.  I don't believe we need to disrespectfully throw out the baby with bathwater.  IMO, there are many things the church teaches (most brands) that is true, while many things are not and/or are questionable.  So I believe discernment, being led by the Spirit as we look to Jesus is tantamount.   As a brief example,  I'll name a few things "the church" generally teaches that I believe are true.

Jesus is the Son of God
Jesus died and rose again for our sins
Belief in Him - and His atonement - saves us
Jesus was born of a virgin
God created the heavens and the earth
John the Baptist was the forerunner of Jesus
Jesus gave the commandment to love
Speak the truth in love
Jesus will return, etc., etc.

IMO, it is that some of the details, interpretation, understandings are different - what it all means and how it all happens - but again, that's why there's a need for both love and discernment.  That's my understanding anyway.  Blessings, James.

What the mans says is true.  Yet, the doctrines of virtually all churches out there contain a pervasive distortion brought about by trying to reconcile the word of God to the human concept of hell.  That's why I left the organized church.  This teaching of distorted doctrine in an organized church becomes a trap that is so deep that only God can rescue you from it, as many of you have experienced. 

The churches do much good work in their communities, and we need not forget that.  There are plenty of these churches in our own communities, giving us plenty of opportunity to share the truth with members of these church organizations.  God did not call us out to be shy about the gospel of victory.  We need to speak boldly to people as God gives us the opportunities, and hopefully many of those may be church people.  The more you share it, the easier it becomes.  If we get rejected, or the truth gets rejected, that's OK.  It not about us.  Be encouraged, we will receive our reward! 

If you don't feel like you have enough opportunity to share the gospel of victory, ASK GOD FOR OPPORTUNITIES AND A SPIRIT OF BOLDNESS!

:2c:

For encouragement: I think while we will no doubt get lots of rejection, when u do get through to a person and you see the face shine when he/she is released from bondage into the truth, its pretty awesome.  :laughing7:
Of course we must also strive hard and dig deep into scriptures to try to get most of our doctrinal positions right, because there is no point in leading a person to the truth in one area and leading him to falsehood in most other.

[jbertonbounds]

I really like these scrips, thanks.

I differ from Martin and some others on that.  I don't believe absolutely everything "the church" teaches is wrong.  I believe that's an over-statement.  I don't believe we need to disrespectfully throw out the baby with bathwater.  IMO, there are many things the church teaches (most brands) that is true, while many things are not and/or are questionable.  So I believe discernment, being led by the Spirit as we look to Jesus is tantamount.   As a brief example,  I'll name a few things "the church" generally teaches that I believe are true.

Jesus is the Son of God
Jesus died and rose again for our sins
Belief in Him - and His atonement - saves us
Jesus was born of a virgin
God created the heavens and the earth
John the Baptist was the forerunner of Jesus
Jesus gave the commandment to love
Speak the truth in love
Jesus will return, etc., etc.

IMO, it is that some of the details, interpretation, understandings are different - what it all means and how it all happens - but again, that's why there's a need for both love and discernment.  That's my understanding anyway.  Blessings, James.

What the mans says is true.  Yet, the doctrines of virtually all churches out there contain a pervasive distortion brought about by trying to reconcile the word of God to the human concept of hell.  That's why I left the organized church.  This teaching of distorted doctrine in an organized church becomes a trap that is so deep that only God can rescue you from it, as many of you have experienced. 

The churches do much good work in their communities, and we need not forget that.  There are plenty of these churches in our own communities, giving us plenty of opportunity to share the truth with members of these church organizations.  God did not call us out to be shy about the gospel of victory.  We need to speak boldly to people as God gives us the opportunities, and hopefully many of those may be church people.  The more you share it, the easier it becomes.  If we get rejected, or the truth gets rejected, that's OK.  It not about us.  Be encouraged, we will receive our reward! 

If you don't feel like you have enough opportunity to share the gospel of victory, ASK GOD FOR OPPORTUNITIES AND A SPIRIT OF BOLDNESS!

:2c:

For encouragement: I think while we will no doubt get lots of rejection, when u do get through to a person and you see the face shine when he/she is released from bondage into the truth, its pretty awesome.  :laughing7:
Of course we must also strive hard and dig deep into scriptures to try to get most of our doctrinal positions right, because there is no point in leading a person to the truth in one area and leading him to falsehood in most other.

They say "practice makes perfect."

Practice telling people the truly good news when you are alone, in your car, to another UR friend, etc.

I do this often, and it just comes out naturally when I share it with another person for real. :thumbsup:

PS  The only drawback is that when people see me driving along talking to myself they think I'm crazy.  :laughing7:  Oh yeah, they already thought I was crazy anyway! :laugh:

[mplsfitter539]

Jb rather than re-posting your entire last post I just wanted to show you a verse which I believe says that we should not necessarily rehearse all of our lines. 

Mark 13
11 But when they shall lead you, and deliver you up, take no thought beforehand what ye shall speak, neither do ye premeditate: but whatsoever shall be given you in that hour, that speak ye: for it is not ye that speak, but the Holy Ghost.

I do understand that you are not being lead and delivered but I think it is still applicable. If you feel that you need rehearsal maybe the words that you speak do not come from the Holy Spirit. You can argue that they (your words) come from the HS but how do you know they do if you must rehearse?

[jbertonbounds]

Jb rather than re-posting your entire last post I just wanted to show you a verse which I believe says that we should not necessarily rehearse all of our lines. 

Mark 13
11 But when they shall lead you, and deliver you up, take no thought beforehand what ye shall speak, neither do ye premeditate: but whatsoever shall be given you in that hour, that speak ye: for it is not ye that speak, but the Holy Ghost.

I do understand that you are not being lead and delivered but I think it is still applicable. If you feel that you need rehearsal maybe the words that you speak do not come from the Holy Spirit. You can argue that they (your words) come from the HS but how do you know they do if you must rehearse?

I have no wisdom or understanding that was not taught me by the Holy Spirit.
In and of myself I am nothing at all, I have nothing at all.
I do not agree that Mark 13:11 applies to rehearsing sharing the gospel.

[Ken]

Hello Eduard,

We most certainly do have "free will", as God gives us the choice of whether we want to be in the Kingdom of God - or not:

http://ernestlmartin.com/kingdomofgod-firstresurrection.htm

Either way, we are all still "saved".

I hope this helps.

Ken

(http://ernestlmartin.com/images/kogpng.png)

[dajomaco]

Hello Eduard,

We most certainly do have "free will", as God gives us the choice of whether we want to be in the Kingdom of God - or not:

http://ernestlmartin.com/kingdomofgod-firstresurrection.htm

Either way, we are all still "saved".

I hope this helps.



Ken

I read the article posted above.
IMO In My Opinion.
Is one of the most anti-Christ doctrines.
I am not interested in having an anti-Christ attitude.
As for the kingdom of God,
I see a Man standing by the exit yelling this way

[dajomaco]

Unbelief keeps you out of the kingdom of God.

The article says look at yourself, if you deem that you have done good and have the right attitude.
You might make into the kingdom of God.

If you are looking at your self and see the good you have done, and say.
I have met the requirements to enter the Kingdom of God.
The person standing beside you saying the same thing is Satan.

[jabcat]

Dajo, I've been thinking about this for a few weeks.  It keeps coming back to me that the kingdom of God is righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit.    It seems to me that's available here and now, it's in/among us.    :Chinscratch:

[jabcat]

so I'm still a little corn-fused - about the millinium, the kingdom of heaven vs/along with kingdom of God - whether they're interchangeable or not, etc.   I know Mr. Martin knew a lot more than me, but I'm just not sure about some of it still. 

OK, free will/not free will.  Some one side, some the other, some floating around all over the place in between.   :grouppray:

[dajomaco]

This what I believe so far.
Yes the kingdom of God is real.
The currency used in the kingdom of GOD is Love.
Jesus paid for us to get in.
Once in, we see that Love rules the economy.
Everyone in the Kingdom desires and works toward
having Love to give Jesus at his wedding.
   

[misszoolander]

I have been thinking about freewill for awhile now, and still can draw no conclusion, infact I have personally decided to not conclude a theory on whether I have freewill or not until I am stronger in my faith, although I also accept it if it's Gods plan that I will not know in this life.

I did notice that the more I focused and studied on the different views of freewill, the more strained and anxious I became.
One thing I do know without a doubt, is that there is nothing good within myself.
Maybe I'm all bad within myself, and the good is all God. Maybe it's the carnal part of me that decides my poor choices, and God's spirit that makes the good. Maybe the love I have for others does not come from me at all, rather just my soul bearing witness to the goodness of God.

[mplsfitter539]

Jb rather than re-posting your entire last post I just wanted to show you a verse which I believe says that we should not necessarily rehearse all of our lines. 

Mark 13
11 But when they shall lead you, and deliver you up, take no thought beforehand what ye shall speak, neither do ye premeditate: but whatsoever shall be given you in that hour, that speak ye: for it is not ye that speak, but the Holy Ghost.

I do understand that you are not being lead and delivered but I think it is still applicable. If you feel that you need rehearsal maybe the words that you speak do not come from the Holy Spirit. You can argue that they (your words) come from the HS but how do you know they do if you must rehearse?

I have no wisdom or understanding that was not taught me by the Holy Spirit.
In and of myself I am nothing at all, I have nothing at all.
I do not agree that Mark 13:11 applies to rehearsing sharing the gospel.

Rehearse all you want to jb I hope that you are successful in convincing at least a few lost people, to believe what you believe, with your words.

By the way how has it worked so far? The truth is one of the hardest things to sell on the open market.