2 Thessalonians 2:10-12 Are these people going to be saved?

[wilmont]

You see?
Even if a man was authorized by Gd as an atonement sacrifice (which we know man is not);

Those under animal sacrifice still died and die.
Those under human Jesus sacrifice still died and die.

Both still die.

[Seth]

Do you think I believe in substitutionary atonement?

[wilmont]

I am not sidestepping anything.  Your argumentation is off.
Similar to how Christians will say that Jesus can change the law, because he is Gd....even though Holy Word says, and Jesus said he was/is not.


Think critically about it?
The way of your argumentation is actually refuting Jesus as a subsitute for your sin.  Because he has not worked properly, because your still going to die (we all do).  No different then animal sacrifices.

Do you think I believe in substitutionary atonement?

Yes....

[wilmont]

Do you mean penal substitution?
I think a person can believe in substitutionary atonement without applying a penalty.

There are some who don't hold to sacrifices as substitutes,  they view them more as doing what Gd requires, without any specific inference of substitution.
It is my personal belief that sacrifices were really mans inner desire to rid himself of his "hide/ flesh/ sin" to be as one with Gd (light)....or to see their sins leaving in an abstract substitute like a goat, into the wilderness (to clean the conscience)

[Seth]

I am not sidestepping anything.  Your argumentation is off.
Similar to how Christians will say that Jesus can change the law, because he is Gd....even though Holy Word says, and Jesus said he was/is not.


Think critically about it?
The way of your argumentation is actually refuting Jesus as a subsitute for your sin.  Because he has not worked properly, because your still going to die (we all do).  No different then animal sacrifices.

Do you think I believe in substitutionary atonement?

Yes....

Thank you for finally answering the question.

I don't believe in substitutionary atonement as it is understood by Othodox Christianity. I know what I will say, you will probably still disagree with me about, yet still you should disagree with me on what I believe not in what you think I probably believe.

Substitutionary atonement says: "Jesus died taking the retribution for sin on himself, so that man could escape that and be considered righteous by God through belief."

What I believe the NT teaches is that Jesus was raised so that everyone else could be raised. His death occurred so that he could be resurrected, as salvation is not through his death but by his life (Romans 5).

This answers your point about the fact that everyone still dies. They die because the resurrection gift is in being raised FROM the dead. Everyone has sinned and fallen short (beginning in Adam). Romans 6 shows that the Spirit baptism joins us to Christ's death, so that we make walk in newness of life (ending in life in Christ). Immortality is also life from the dead which is why people physically die, another part of the Gospel that Christ's sacrifice and resurrection assures. Those who die in Adam will be given life in Christ: the whole world.

[wilmont]

either you are typing some monstrous posting...or I offended you in some manner.

If I did sorry. :icon_flower:

[Seth]

Not at all. I may not be able to reply right away. Hope you understand.  :HeartThrob:

[wilmont]

Thanks for your explanation...sort of quasi penal substitution.
I believe that Jesus came to explain and teach that Israel messed it up (see Jer. 8), that sacrifices were never to be taken "literally", to appease Gd for forgiveness...... they were just for weaning purposes, however for those who could not break free from this captivity, he became as if a sacrifice, so it would put it to an end.
I believe in a form of ongoing resurrection, by which he gives some a taste of the age to come (heaven before we get there), through a marriage covenant with Gd.

[Seth]

Thanks for your explanation...sort of quasi penal substitution.
I believe that Jesus came to explain and teach that Israel messed it up (see Jer. 8), that sacrifices were never to be taken "literally", to appease Gd for forgiveness...... they were just for weaning purposes, however for those who could not break free from this captivity, he became as if a sacrifice, so it would put it to an end.
I believe in a form of ongoing resurrection, by which he gives some a taste of the age to come (heaven before we get there), through a marriage covenant with Gd.

Maybe we don't believe so differently. If the sacrifices were not to be taken literally, that is very similar to saying that the whole law is a type of Christ and that if he is able to supernaturally provide righteousness through a Gentile from the Ozarks who has never even seen or read or heard a copy of the 10 Commandments, then the Gentile would naturally fulfill the righteousness of the law (ie not committing adultery) because he wouldn't even WANT to do commit adultery in the first place.

That would mean that Christ would be causing a follower to do things in the law, without them having to even know what the letter actually says.

Otherwise none could be set free from sin unless they were able to read, hear, or have access to the Law of Moses. If you have been reading my statements you would see that I have also been speaking about an "ongoing resurrection."

[Seth]

The idea that the sacrifices were not to be taken literally would NEVER be able to be accepted by the carnal mind when the Law was given to the Israelites. That is why they sacrificed animals. And that is why they didn't believe their Messiah when he stood before them. They saw the letter, but not that to which the letter pointed: Jesus Christ.

So Jesus was raised to deliver one from the carnal mind. That is why I don't do sacrifices of lambs either. I know they are not to be carnally discerned, but spiritually discerned. But I don't take credit for that knowledge in myself. I credit the Lord for revealing it.

[wilmont]

The idea that the sacrifices were not to be taken literally would NEVER be able to be accepted by the carnal mind when the Law was given to the Israelites. That is why they sacrificed animals. And that is why they didn't believe their Messiah when he stood before them. They saw the letter, but not that to which the letter pointed: Jesus Christ.

So Jesus was raised to deliver one from the carnal mind. That is why I don't do sacrifices of lambs either. I know they are not to be carnally discerned, but spiritually discerned. But I don't take credit for that knowledge in myself. I credit the Lord for revealing it.

There are no circumcised people in heaven.

I think originally this (sacrifices) were not the case (since Jeremiah speaks of no sacrifices originally from Egypt 7:22)...I believe Moses knew and relayed the Gospel spoken by Jesus, but they went back to that which they were to be broken free from (see Ex. 34:7 as one example).

[Seth]

The idea that the sacrifices were not to be taken literally would NEVER be able to be accepted by the carnal mind when the Law was given to the Israelites. That is why they sacrificed animals. And that is why they didn't believe their Messiah when he stood before them. They saw the letter, but not that to which the letter pointed: Jesus Christ.

So Jesus was raised to deliver one from the carnal mind. That is why I don't do sacrifices of lambs either. I know they are not to be carnally discerned, but spiritually discerned. But I don't take credit for that knowledge in myself. I credit the Lord for revealing it.

There are no circumcised people in heaven.

I think originally this (sacrifices) were not the case (since Jeremiah speaks of no sacrifices originally from Egypt 7:22)...I believe Moses knew and relayed the Gospel spoken by Jesus, but they went back to that which they were to be broken free from (see Ex. 34:7 as one example).

I don't necessarily think that Moses knew the Gospel of Christ. I think he knew whatever he was intended to know. But the message has indeed always been: don't sin. But the condition of the flesh that is the condition that Jesus came to heal us from, so that not only do we not sin, we are freed from wanting to sin (which is accomplished by the "ongoing resurrection." That is so anyone can be free whether they have access to the Law of Moses or not.