2 Thessalonians 2:10-12 Are these people going to be saved?

[wilmont]

Can you see why I am hated by many Christians?
Because they want to believe that Jesus died because Gd required it...this is their excuse.
And this excuse they believe upon
Jesus died because they DID NOT BELIEVE. Who am I to preach to them the Gospel, when they are doing the real work of Gd.

I love you folks (Not saying you are like that)....and at least you have moved beyond much of the Romans.
And I do not mean any harm.

[jesushandsarekindhands]

Thanks everyone, very interesting

[Seth]

Well, I do agree with you, that Jesus did not die because God needed something. Actually, he died because WE needed something: The resurrected Life within us delivering us from sin. As to the Law:

I disagree about the Levitical sacrifices not being for the knowledge of sin.

Paul said: by the law is the knowledge of sin. That is what it is for.

Hebrews 10:1-4
The law is only a shadow of the good things that are coming—not the realities themselves. For this reason it can never, by the same sacrifices repeated endlessly year after year, make perfect those who draw near to worship. If it could, would they not have stopped being offered? For the worshipers would have been cleansed once for all, and would no longer have felt guilty for their sins. But those sacrifices are an annual reminder of sins, because it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins.

The sacrifices were there to be a reminder of sins. But Christ was sacrificed for us to deliver us from sin. With the law it is impossible to save anyone from sin. But the Spirit is able to do what the law could not do.

[wilmont]

Maybe Hebrews writer was not a very good student, or didn't know what he was talking about? :bigGrin:
(thats a joke)

Hebrews is mostly speaking about the high priest function of sacrifice (Yearly ritual), not the regular day to day ministerial priestly function.  This is the priest iof the Nation (another way to look at it).
High Priest did not deal with sins which became known on a daily basis.  These were left for the regular ministerial priest.

Here is an example of a regular daily priest function, not Yom Kippur (which by the way is non-blood).

Lev. 5:13;

"But if he is not able to bring two turtledoves or two young pigeons, then he who sinned shall bring for his offering one-tenth of an ephah of fine flour as a sin offering. He shall put no oil on it, nor shall he put frankincense on it, for it is a sin offering. Then he shall bring it to the priest, and the priest shall take his handful of it as a memorial portion, and burn it on the altar according to the offerings made by fire to the Lord. It is a sin offering. The priest shall make atonement for him, for his sin that he has committed in any of these matters; and it shall be forgiven him."

Notice, the person who has already had knowledge of their transgression.

This is the reason why when children were old enough to be intructed in Torah, they would go to congregate (Neh. 8 or 9).


The Quram and cross sects generally did not BELIEVE IN SACRIFICE....because Gd did not authorize this in Torah.
They held to a form of self sacrifice (were way ahead of their time).  Temple sacrifice was never supposed to last or be the corrupt system it had become.

If man was in Perfect state (In LIFE Spirit), there would be no need TO SACRIFICE OURSELVES (which is really what it was about) or use GUILT TRANSFER ( sacrificing ourselves through a substitute). 


No man can totally be perfect in this present state (even Jesus could not).  We have to physically die to be like that (only the dead are totally freed from sin and law).

[wilmont]

Anointed High Priest (which is what commentary in Hebrews speaks about mostly).
His job was once a year.

Jesus could not be a literal replacement for a high priest, or even the regular  (doesn't meet the requirements).
The writer in Hebrews commentary speaks of him being a "heavenly high priest".  In heaven (which the things on earth are patterned) there is no sacrifice (no need too), no physical blood line etc.

So why would people continue to sacrifice and kill to be close to heaven, when the things in heaven are not blood and killing?
The standard Christian argument, is because Gd requires it, as a penalty of some sort.
Its a bibilically weak foundation.

Their were other Jewish sects who understood, it was about self sacrifice, and an attempt to be as if physcially dead in state of perfection with Gd, absent the nature of our sinful flesh (which can almost be mastered but not totally in this present age).

[wilmont]

Another way to understand what Moses, Isa., Jeremiah, Jesus etc.  were trying to convey is that sacrifices were are meant for those who don't believe Gd has forgiven them.

Ex. 34:7;

keeping mercy unto the thousandth generation, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin; and that will by no means clear the guilty; visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and upon the children's children, unto the third and unto the fourth generation.'

We pass our guilt onto our children through word and deed.
This is why alot of Jesus ministry was built upon;  "if you don't want the guilt or condemnation, then don't INTENTIONALLY transgress".

There is no sacrifice (in manor animal) which can cleanse the conscience of a person which intentionally sins......however there are means to do things concerning intentional sins,  repent, restitution and good works will help).

Blessings to you this morning.

[Seth]

Maybe Hebrews writer was not a very good student, or didn't know what he was talking about? :bigGrin:
(thats a joke)

Hebrews is mostly speaking about the high priest function of sacrifice (Yearly ritual), not the regular day to day ministerial priestly function.  This is the priest iof the Nation (another way to look at it).
High Priest did not deal with sins which became known on a daily basis.  These were left for the regular ministerial priest.

Here is an example of a regular daily priest function, not Yom Kippur (which by the way is non-blood).

Lev. 5:13;

"But if he is not able to bring two turtledoves or two young pigeons, then he who sinned shall bring for his offering one-tenth of an ephah of fine flour as a sin offering. He shall put no oil on it, nor shall he put frankincense on it, for it is a sin offering. Then he shall bring it to the priest, and the priest shall take his handful of it as a memorial portion, and burn it on the altar according to the offerings made by fire to the Lord. It is a sin offering. The priest shall make atonement for him, for his sin that he has committed in any of these matters; and it shall be forgiven him."

Notice, the person who has already had knowledge of their transgression.

This is the reason why when children were old enough to be intructed in Torah, they would go to congregate (Neh. 8 or 9).

Brother, you are making exceptions where none are provided. Am I to believe that the sacrifices you describe as being somehow different from the yearly DO have the power to deliver someone from sin? Only the Spirit has that power.

By the law is the knowledge of sin. ALL the sacrifices had a shadow of Christ, but were not in themselves able to do what he does.

If man was in Perfect state (In LIFE Spirit), there would be no need TO SACRIFICE OURSELVES (which is really what it was about) or use GUILT TRANSFER ( sacrificing ourselves through a substitute). 


No man can totally be perfect in this present state (even Jesus could not).  We have to physically die to be like that (only the dead are totally freed from sin and law).

I agree, that no man can be perfect in this present state and that we must physically die and be clothed with Christ for completion, however, deliverance from sin was never by the law. By the law is the knowledge of sin. By CHRIST is deliverance from it.

None of the sacrifices were able to bring deliverance from the body of this death by which slavery to sin originates. Was the law able to accomplish that deliverance? No, because the letter is external, but the Spirit is internal and brings true salvation from sin where the law could only expose it and therefore bring man under condemnation. By contrast, the Spirit sets us free, where the law held us in bondage.

There is no sacrifice (in manor animal) which can cleanse the conscience of a person which intentionally sins......however there are means to do things concerning intentional sins,  repent, restitution and good works will help).

The sacrifices are there to show man the sin in his flesh by bringing continual remembrance of sin. If the sacrifices were able to put to death the old man, the body of death which lusts against the spirit and brings man into slavery to its lusts, then man would not need to bring sacrifices because he wouldn't be sinning. That is what Paul meant when he said

"For this reason it can never, by the same sacrifices repeated endlessly year after year, make perfect those who draw near to worship. If it could, would they not have stopped being offered?"

Do ANY of the sacrifices NOT fit that definition? Is there ANY animal sacrifice that has the power to deliver man from the flesh with all its lusts and passions, putting to death the old man? Of course not. It's all external. Remember when Jesus said: You must eat my flesh and drink my blood? He was talking about the Holy Spirit. Christ is the only sacrificial lamb able to do any internal work in man.

So again I say, by the law is the knowledge of sin. By Christ is deliverance from sin.

[Beloved Servant]

...we must physically die and be clothed with Christ for completion...

I disagree! just my opinion.

[Seth]

...we must physically die and be clothed with Christ for completion...

I disagree! just my opinion.

I know. That's your Constitutional right. ;)

[Cardinal]

...we must physically die and be clothed with Christ for completion...

I disagree! just my opinion.

:cloud9: So do I. Blessings....

[Seth]

lol...and the world keeps spinning.  :laughing7:

[wilmont]

Seth,

You said this;

Brother, you are making exceptions where none are provided. Am I to believe that the sacrifices you describe as being somehow different from the yearly DO have the power to deliver someone from sin? Only the Spirit has that power.

I am not making exceptions?

Holy Word says this;

Lev. 5:13;

But if he is not able to bring two turtledoves or two young pigeons, then he who sinned shall bring for his offering one-tenth of an ephah of fine flour as a sin offering. He shall put no oil on it, nor shall he put frankincense on it, for it is a sin offering. Then he shall bring it to the priest, and the priest shall take his handful of it as a memorial portion, and burn it on the altar according to the offerings made by fire to the Lord. It is a sin offering. The priest shall make atonement for him, for his sin that he has committed in any of these matters; and it shall be forgiven him.

"then he who sinned shall bring"

This person already knows that they sinned.
The offering does not make their sin known to them....they already KNOW.

That leaves us with;

It is a sin offering. The priest shall make atonement for him, for his sin that he has committed in any of these matters; and it shall be forgiven him.

1)It is a sin offering for those who already knew they sinned.
2)The priest will make them one with Gd (atone) for them, or on their behalf.
2)And because of this (the above) they will know believe or understand, that Gd has forgiven their sin.

Now if a person wants to "literally" take Lev. 5 at its word, then it almost seems that unless they do that which is prescribed for their sin, then Gd won't forgive them.
However Jeremiah said this;


"In speaking to your fathers on the day I brought them out of the land of Egypt, I gave them no command concerning holocaust or sacrifice."

And Moses spoke before giving of Levitical sacrifices this;

"keeping mercy unto the thousandth generation, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin; and that will by no means clear the guilty; visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and upon the children's children, unto the third and unto the fourth generation.'"

And Jesus said this in commentary in Matt. 9:13;


"Go and learn the meaning of the words, 'I desire mercy, not sacrifice.' I did not come to call the righteous but sinners."

Now what kind of a "meanie" Gd, would break His people free from bondage, march them through the desert for many years without the means of forgiving them? 

You said this too;

ALL the sacrifices had a shadow of Christ, but were not in themselves able to do what he does.

This is why it is hard for me to believe Jesus was a real man as Christians believe, because of some Christian teachings or doctrines (not speaking of you specifically).

Jesus could not ever be a literal Levitical sacrifice.  The Temple and those things were pattered after those in heaven and given to Moses.

1)Unless their is man or animal sacrifice in heaven (for those who believe in this), then the pattern on earth is not to be taken literaly as that of heaven.

2)Unless Gd thinks it is okay to make Jesus an animal on earth and have people draw their blood, finish killing him and then cook him etc., then there is some other understanding.


Sacrifices were/are really about us.  Not to reveal sins that we already knew about (why we would bring the sacrifice to begin with).  We are the one being sacrificed.  We who believe SUFFER in this world, until such a time when we can leave our flesh mortal bodies behind, and live in a perfected state, where circumcison doesn't happen, doesn't need too.
Jesus was of a sect of Jews who believed ALL MEN could be close to Gd now, because Gd is a part of us, he lived in the true temple (us).
Man was really Gds hands and his feet.


Every man has an Adam and a Christ (not that I am a Gnostic).

[wilmont]

Seth,

Please be patient with me.

You said this.

By Christ is deliverance from sin

Is Jesus a real historical person to you?

Then where in Tanach does Gd say it is exceptable for a man to be a Levitical sacrifice?

You see what I mean?

There must be more to those kind of sayings.

Maybe Jesus delivered some people from a previous theology concering purpose of Levitical sacrifices?

[wilmont]

I know I am long winded.  Sorry.

Moses spoke before giving of Levitical sacrifices this;

"keeping mercy unto the thousandth generation, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin; and that will by no means clear the guilty; visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and upon the children's children, unto the third and unto the fourth generation.'"


Now what kind of a "meanie" Gd, would break His people free from bondage, march them through the desert for many years without the means of forgiving them? 

Moses tells us Gd did forgive their sin. 
However it did not work out too well, since they liked some of the things they carried with them from captivity.
So they get a sacrificial system by which they can incorporate the worship of the ONE TRUE Gd, until such a time when they can be weaned away from it.
Jesus came to "SPLAIN IT".


What happened in Christianity is they took the same unweaned system, and just replaced Jesus with it.
So just like Orthodox Judasim does not generally see sacrifices as symbolic or abstract types or images (although many Jews and some followers do).....Christianity went the same route, in that they view the sacrifice of the Man Jesus as not symbolic or an abstract type (although I view the actual sacrifices are the symbol or abstract type of fleshless perfected spirit type bodies in heaven), but a literal sacrifice to get Gd to do something for them; forgive them by paying off their guilt, or to them function as this version of a real sacrifice per a non symbolic Orthodox Jewish view of the Sacrificial system.
This is why it can never line up properly with the Holy Word.


Its alot easier for lazy Church leaders just to tell a person;

Yeah Jesus is the same as an animal sacrifice.
Lets eat, and listen to some music.

[Seth]

Seth,

You said this;

Brother, you are making exceptions where none are provided. Am I to believe that the sacrifices you describe as being somehow different from the yearly DO have the power to deliver someone from sin? Only the Spirit has that power.

I am not making exceptions?

Holy Word says this;

Lev. 5:13;

But if he is not able to bring two turtledoves or two young pigeons, then he who sinned shall bring for his offering one-tenth of an ephah of fine flour as a sin offering. He shall put no oil on it, nor shall he put frankincense on it, for it is a sin offering. Then he shall bring it to the priest, and the priest shall take his handful of it as a memorial portion, and burn it on the altar according to the offerings made by fire to the Lord. It is a sin offering. The priest shall make atonement for him, for his sin that he has committed in any of these matters; and it shall be forgiven him.

"then he who sinned shall bring"

This person already knows that they sinned.
The offering does not make their sin known to them....they already KNOW.

They know that they have committed a sin, a trespass. But the knowledge of sin that the Law reveals goes much deeper than that. What man discovers through the law is not the trespass they committed, but WHY they commit those trespasses in the first place. The Law condemns sin, so the observers of the law try to do right, but the sin in their flesh causes them to do what they try not to do. This condition of slavery is what the law reveals. That is what Paul means when he says "by the works of the law shall no man be justified, for by the law is the knowledge of sin." By working according to the demands of the Law man does not ever become delivered from sin, he only discovers his need for a savior from it. That is how the law leads to Christ.

Sacrifices were/are really about us.  Not to reveal sins that we already knew about (why we would bring the sacrifice to begin with).  We are the one being sacrificed.  We who believe SUFFER in this world, until such a time when we can leave our flesh mortal bodies behind, and live in a perfected state, where circumcison doesn't happen, doesn't need too.

This might be where we are talking past eachother.

I am not talking about the knowledge of trespasses committed. Those trespasses are only the symptom of the sin dwelling WITHIN man. Man may be aware of the tresspasses committed, yet not aware of the ROOT cause of those trespasses which is the flesh, and the lusts that the flesh generate. That is what the knowledge of sin is.

[Seth]

Seth,

Please be patient with me.

You said this.

By Christ is deliverance from sin

Is Jesus a real historical person to you?

Then where in Tanach does Gd say it is exceptable for a man to be a Levitical sacrifice?

You see what I mean?

There must be more to those kind of sayings.

Maybe Jesus delivered some people from a previous theology concering purpose of Levitical sacrifices?

Yes I believe Jesus Christ was a real historical person who died, and was resurrected to life, so that he could give the gift of Abraham (the Spirit) unto deliverance from sin. He is now alive and will not die again.

[Seth]

Moses tells us Gd did forgive their sin. 
However it did not work out too well, since they liked some of the things they carried with them from captivity.
So they get a sacrificial system by which they can incorporate the worship of the ONE TRUE Gd, until such a time when they can be weaned away from it.
Jesus came to "SPLAIN IT".

The bolded blue is the point of Christ's sacrifice: so that they wouldn't keep wanting to return to Egypt. That is why Christ puts our flesh to death from the inside out by his resurrected Life.

[wilmont]

Seth,
There is a law which states that you must have a railing around your roof top balcony.
You decide you don't want one right now....you know it is a transgression of law because
last Saturday, the junior scribe spoke about roof top railings at the meeting place.

What is the deeper meaning in violating the law about a roof top railing?

[Seth]

Seth,
There is a law which states that you must have a railing around your roof top balcony.
You decide you don't want one right now....you know it is a transgression of law because
last Saturday, the junior scribe spoke about roof top railings at the meeting place.

What is the deeper meaning in violating the law about a roof top railing?

My continually violating that law (and offering a sacrifice every time I violate it) I am made aware of a condition of disobedience that my flesh causes me to have (seeing as how the flesh lusteth against the Spirit and the Spirit lusteth against the flesh.)

This continual process of disobedience leads me to desire a savior from the body of this death which Christ answers by giving his Spirit. Then, I don't even WANT to disobey.

[wilmont]

 Here is the law;

Deut. 22:8;

"When you build a new house, you shall make a parapet for your roof, so that you do not bring bloodguilt on your house if anyone should fall from it"

This law reveals and prevents a transgression (no guilt removal sacrifices allowed for wilful transgression).

You shall make a paraphet for your roof (revealed).
So that you do not bring bloodguilt on your house (prevention).

How does concentrating on Jesus's sacrifice make this not important or go away?

[Seth]

Here is the law;

Deut. 22:8;

"When you build a new house, you shall make a parapet for your roof, so that you do not bring bloodguilt on your house if anyone should fall from it"

This law reveals and prevents a transgression (no guilt removal sacrifices allowed for wilful transgression).

How does concentrating on Jesus's sacrifice make this not important or go away?

Your hypothetical was predicated on disobedience to the rooftop law. So, I think I answered this question. If I disobey that law, according to your hypothetical, and continually make a sacrifice to cover my continued disobedience, then an internal condition of sinfulness is revealed. Christ's sacrifice paves the way for his resurrection. By his life we are saved so that we do not want to disobey, the Spirit putting away the very desire to disobey.

[wilmont]

So Christians should be exempt from building codes?


There is no sacrifice for wilful intention sins allowed (Num. 15:27-31, Hebrews commentary Chapt. 10 I think).

Preceding the time of Jesus there was a Rabbinical school of thought which believed in a earnings or rewards system concering their belief in an afterlife.
Along with this was Halactic approaches (oral interpretations of law of Moses), on things like; what should we do if the eighth day is on the sabbath?  Can we violate Sabbath by circumcision?

Alot of what Jesus was dealing with was this type of understanding.

The nations had different things to deal with.

[Seth]

So Christians should be exempt from building codes?


There is no sacrifice for wilful intention sins allowed (Num. 15:27-31, Hebrews commentary Chapt. 10 I think).

Preceding the time of Jesus there was a Rabbinical school of thought which believed in a earnings or rewards system concering their belief in an afterlife.
Along with this was Halactic approaches (oral interpretations of law of Moses), on things like; what should we do if the eighth day is on the sabbath?  Can we violate Sabbath by circumcision?

Alot of what Jesus was dealing with was this type of understanding.

The nations had different things to deal with.

No, Christians should not be exempt from building codes. However, if they build a parapet for their roof to keep someone from falling it would not be because the letter of Moses tells them. It would be because the Love of Christ compels them. It wouldn't be to avoid bloodguilt for themselves, but to avoid hurting someone else.

That is how a Gentile can do the righteousness of the law (love) without having the law (per Romans 2) because they do love by nature not by letter. Nobody who is in Christ can violate the sabbath because the sabbath is a shadow of Christ, just like the rest of the 10 commandments. The true rock is Christ in you, the hope of glory, not some words etched in carnal rock. Circumcision of the heart is essential to observing the true sabbath which are the good things in Christ himself, his righteousness through us, not our own righteousness which is by the law.

[wilmont]

So Christians should be exempt from building codes?


There is no sacrifice for wilful intention sins allowed (Num. 15:27-31, Hebrews commentary Chapt. 10 I think).

Preceding the time of Jesus there was a Rabbinical school of thought which believed in a earnings or rewards system concering their belief in an afterlife.
Along with this was Halactic approaches (oral interpretations of law of Moses), on things like; what should we do if the eighth day is on the sabbath?  Can we violate Sabbath by circumcision?

Alot of what Jesus was dealing with was this type of understanding.

The nations had different things to deal with.

No, Christians should not be exempt from building codes. However, if they build a parapet for their roof to keep someone from falling it would not be because the letter of Moses tells them. It would be because the Love of Christ compels them. It wouldn't be to avoid bloodguilt for themselves, but to avoid hurting someone else.

That is how a Gentile can do the righteousness of the law (love) without having the law (per Romans 2) because they do love by nature not by letter. Nobody who is in Christ can violate the sabbath because the sabbath is a shadow of Christ, just like the rest of the 10 commandments. The true rock is Christ in you, the hope of glory, not some words etched in carnal rock. Circumcision of the heart is essential to observing the true sabbath which are the good things in Christ himself, his righteousness through us, not our own righteousness which is by the law.

Seth,

Who told you Jews do love by letter of law?
I think maybe you are misreading Paul.

Love doesn't replace a railing on a roof.:) :happygrin:
Thats a belief, its not in Holy Word, and Jesus never taught that.

1 Romanski 2

Those that do a building code, do so to the righteous letter of the law, and build a railing on a rooftop, because the code tells them to, otherwise they might never do it(I don't know this for sure);  whereas another groups leader, has taught them that they are not under the code, but do some of the things of the code naturally, and if someone falls off their roof, its okay because they do the righteous love of the code naturally.






Blessings

[Seth]

Seth,

Who told you Jews do love by letter of law?
I think maybe you are misreading Paul.
Love doesn't replace a railing on a roof.:) 
Thats a belief, its not in Holy Word, and Jesus never taught that.

Love can't be done by the letter of the law. The law is not of faith, which is why it is our own righteousness, and not the righteousness of God. Love is done by the Spirit which is the gift that God gives in order to put the flesh to death. When the flesh is put to death (which is a daily walk) love becomes a natural way of life, not something that needs to be instructed from the ministry of death on stone and parchment.

Jesus taught that love will result in actions according to love. My statement was that Gentiles will do the righteousness of the law, not because the letter says so, but they will do it by nature even without a set of letters on parchment and stone to follow.