Lust - sin? or mere admiration?

[Tom]

Well, we got back around to marriage :).  I am NOT a lawyer, nor do I play one on TV or even local theatre.  All the following information is a layman's opinion and should not be considered legal advice.  :)


I agree with whatever else it is or isn't, it's

a commitment to God and each other

Maybe the Lutheran preacher was too strict one direction, when maybe he could have talked with them, encouraged to confess any sin if it were present, restore them, then perform the ceremony.  Being humans still in flesh though, I also believe we can assume license to sin the other direction too, by not really being serious and scriptural about it.

As I've said before, even if not done "legally" for whatever reason [although any truly pertinent laws of the land should be fully considered], I personally very much prefer some type of comittment "cermony"/promise/observance, even if those 2 people were on a deserted island and it was "only" between them and God.  Because I believe the other side of it, which could be spiritually dangerous is, if someone "plays games with it" by not really making a holy, spiritual, honest comittment before God.  So in essence are really just "shacking up" - maybe even going from one "wife" to another with little regard to "I truly take you as my wife, I give myself to you for life [considering all related scriptural issues re: adultary, perhaps abandonment, etc.] forsaking all others, cleaving only to you", etc.   Again, with all the scriptural things that apply.   God knows what's truly in our heart, and we can't fool Him.   :2c:

That's why folks usually have a "ceremony" in front of witnesses, but it doesn't have to be conducted by a clergyman who preaches God will torture most of mankind forever in fire. It could just be some close friends sharing some verses from the inspired written word of God about love and marriage and praying together asking God to bless the couple. And if it really is a lifelong commitment, it is easier to function legally as a family in society if the marriage is legal.

[Tom]

It's not easy to be celibate in today's world with the continuous bombardment of sexuality in the media, but one of the fruits of the spirit is "self-control."

"the fruit of the spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, meekness, self-control" (Galatians 5:22,23)

A believer needs to make a personal decision to be celibate or married. Speaking from experience, I say both are a blessing, but you need to be honest with God and yourself. If you're not willing to commit yourself to somebody, you should remain celibate. God's love is sufficient when you stay focused on the spirit. The best way to do that is through the word of God.

[Tom]

"1 Now, concerning what you write to me: It is ideal for a man not to be touching a woman.
2 Yet, because of prostitutions, let each man have a wife for himself and each woman have her own husband.
3 Let the husband render to the wife her due, yet likewise the wife also to the husband.
4 The wife has not the jurisdiction of her own body, but the husband, yet likewise the husband also has not the jurisdiction of his own body, but the wife.
5 Do not deprive one another, except sometime it should be by agreement for a period, that you should have leisure for prayer, and you may be the same again, lest Satan may be trying you because of your incontinence.
6 Now this I am saying as a concession, not as an injunction.
7 For I want all men to be as I myself also, but each has his own gracious gift from God, one indeed, thus, yet one thus.
8 Now I am saying to the unmarried and the widows, that it is ideal for them if ever they should be remaining even as I.
9 Yet if they are not controlling themselves, let them marry, for it is better to marry than to be on fire.
10 Now to the married I am charging, not I, but the Lord: A wife is not to be separated from her husband.
11 Yet if she should be separated also, let her remain unmarried or be conciliated to her husband. And a husband is not to leave his wife.
12 Now to the rest am I speaking, not the Lord. If any brother has an unbelieving wife, and she approves of making a home with him, let him not leave her.
13 And a wife who has an unbelieving husband, and he approves of making a home with her, let her not leave her husband.
14 For the unbelieving husband is hallowed by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is hallowed by the brother, else, consequently, your children are unclean. Yet now they are holy.
15 Yet if the unbeliever is separating, let him separate. A brother or a sister is not enslaved in such a case. Now God has called us in peace.
16 For of what are you aware, O wife -- will you be saving your husband -- or of what are you aware, O husband -- will you be saving your wife --
17 except as the Lord parts it to each? Each as God has called him, thus let him be walking. And thus am I prescribing in all the ecclesias.
18 Was anyone called having been circumcised? Let him not be de-circumcised. Is anyone called in uncircumcision? Let him not circumcise.
19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the precepts of God.
20 Each one in the calling in which he was called, in this let him be remaining.
21 Were you called a slave? Let it not be causing you care. But if you are able to become free also, use it rather.
22 For, in the Lord, he who is being called a slave, is the Lord's freedman. Likewise, he who is being called, being free, is a slave of Christ.
23 With a price are you bought. Do not become the slaves of men.
24 Each one, in what he was called, brethren, in this let him remain with God.
25 Now concerning the celibates or virgins, I have no injunction of the Lord. Yet an opinion am I giving, as one who has enjoyed mercy by the Lord to be faithful.
26 I am inferring, then, this ideal to be inherent, because of the present necessity, for it is ideal for humanity to be thus.
27 You are bound to a wife? Do not seek to be loosed. You have been loosed from a wife? Do not seek a wife.
28 Yet if you ever should be marrying, also, you did not sin. And if the virgin should be marrying, she did not sin. Yet affliction in the flesh will such be having. Yet I am sparing you.
29 Now this I am averring, brethren, the era is limited; that, furthermore, those also having wives may be as not having them,
30 and those lamenting as not lamenting, and those rejoicing as not rejoicing, and those buying as not retaining,
31 and those using this world as not using it up. For the fashion of this world is passing by.
32 Now I want you to be without worry. The unmarried one is solicitous about the things of the Lord, how he should be pleasing the Lord.
33 Yet he who marries is solicitous about the things of the world, how he should be pleasing his wife,
34 and is parted. The unmarried woman as well as the virgin: the unmarried one is solicitous about the things of the Lord, that she may be holy in body as well as in spirit, yet she who marries is solicitous about the things of the world, how she should be pleasing her husband.
35 Now this I am saying for your own expedience, not that I should be casting a noose over you, but for that which is respectable and assiduous -- to be undistractedly for the Lord.
36 Now if anyone is inferring it to be indecent for his virgin, if she should be over her meridian, and thus it ought to occur, what he will, let him do. He is not sinning. Let them marry.
37 Yet he who stands settled in his heart, having no necessity, yet has authority as to his own will, and has decided this in his own heart (to be keeping his virgin) ideally will be doing.
38 So that he also who is taking his virgin in marriage, ideally will be doing, yet he who is not taking out in marriage will be doing better.
39 A wife is bound by law for whatever time her husband is living. Yet if the husband should be reposing, she is free to be married to whom she will, only in the Lord.
40 Yet happier is she if ever she should be remaining thus, according to my opinion. Now I presume that I also have God's spirit." (1 Corinthians 7:1-40)

[attachment deleted by admin]

[Warhawk17]

Well, we got back around to marriage :).  I am NOT a lawyer, nor do I play one on TV or even local theatre.  All the following information is a layman's opinion and should not be considered legal advice.  :)


I agree with whatever else it is or isn't, it's

a commitment to God and each other

Maybe the Lutheran preacher was too strict one direction, when maybe he could have talked with them, encouraged to confess any sin if it were present, restore them, then perform the ceremony.  Being humans still in flesh though, I also believe we can assume license to sin the other direction too, by not really being serious and scriptural about it.

As I've said before, even if not done "legally" for whatever reason [although any truly pertinent laws of the land should be fully considered], I personally very much prefer some type of comittment "cermony"/promise/observance, even if those 2 people were on a deserted island and it was "only" between them and God.  Because I believe the other side of it, which could be spiritually dangerous is, if someone "plays games with it" by not really making a holy, spiritual, honest comittment before God.  So in essence are really just "shacking up" - maybe even going from one "wife" to another with little regard to "I truly take you as my wife, I give myself to you for life [considering all related scriptural issues re: adultary, perhaps abandonment, etc.] forsaking all others, cleaving only to you", etc.   Again, with all the scriptural things that apply.   God knows what's truly in our heart, and we can't fool Him.   :2c:

Absolutely Jabcat!  :iagree: I've seen lives ruined from couples deciding to "shack up" and not really take their relationship seriously. A friend of mine a couple years older than me is living with his girlfriend now, and I pray that they are both taking the commitment seriously, and another friend of mine and his girlfriend are trying to do that next year. From a college student's perspective, it makes sense as a way to cut costs, but if it doesn't work out, there could be far more serious consequences. And from my friend's perspective, the pastor wanted to still do the ceremony but was just reluctant because he was worried about receiving backlash from his higher ups if they found out.

And if I made it sound like I'm completely against marriage ceremonies, I'm not. I personally think they're joyous occasions and a lot of fun to attend (especially when I get out on the dance floor  :banana:). Plus it is nice to have family and friends there to celebrate with you. But I just don't believe it's not official in God's eyes until the ceremony is actually completed. I believe the legal benefits are a good incentive too.

[Tom]

Check out the attachment for some interesting information about the building of woman.

[attachment deleted by admin]

[sheila]

  Iwould love to read that Tom, but Iclicked onit anddidn't get it. Is getting an

attachment different than alink?  TY

[Tom]

  Iwould love to read that Tom, but Iclicked onit anddidn't get it. Is getting an

attachment different than alink?  TY

When you click on it, it should download to your computer. It automatically downloads with the Chrome browser, and Explorer gives you a pop up at the bottom of your screen asking you if you want to download or open it. It is a PDF file. So you will need Adobe Reader which is free to download here. http://www.adobe.com/products/reader.html

[Tom]

  Iwould love to read that Tom, but Iclicked onit anddidn't get it. Is getting an

attachment different than alink?  TY

Let me know if you can't get it Sheila. I'll copy and paste the text for you.

[Tom]

  Iwould love to read that Tom, but Iclicked onit anddidn't get it. Is getting an

attachment different than alink?  TY

This is kind of long, but here's the text from the PDF file.

"UR_V11P2 pages 271-274

THE BUILDING OF WOMAN

ONE of the stories which have excited the ridicule of the critics of the
Bible is the account of the creation of woman. If a rib was taken out of
man to form a woman, why, we are asked, is not one still missing?
Foolish as such an objection seems on the surface (for the loss of more
important members of the body are not transmitted by generation) it
challenges us to a look into the scripture more carefully. It is difficult to
see any particular reason why a rib should be chosen for this purpose.
Was it really a rib, or may the word be understood of some other part of
Adam's body!
The Hebrew word here rendered "rib," though it occurs over forty
times, is nowhere else so translated. It is not the Hebrew equivalent of
the Chaldee galag (Dan.7:5), the only other word which may be rendered
"rib."
Our translators have sometimes given it as side or side chamber, as
well as corner, board, plank, leaves, halting. Many of these, it must be
conceded, have some semblance to a rib.
The word is almost always used in connection with the temple or the
tabernacle. A knowledge of the structure of these buildings will help us
to discover its true meaning.
Ezekiel describes the millennial temple as having side chambers in
the walls (Ezek.41:5-26). Their size, and how they increase in width as
the walls of the building decreased, their number and how they were
connected—all these architectural details leave us in no doubt that the
word here means a cell, or vault, an enclosed space.
When we transfer this meaning to the tabernacle structure, it seems to
fail utterly. But this is because the tabernacle walls themselves are not
correctly described.
Of the four Hebrew words translated board, one is used exclusively
of the "boards" of the tabernacle except a single occurrence, where it is
rendered "benches" (Ezek.27:6). It is not at all likely, however, that
benches were made of ivory. Rather the prow of the ship was made of
this precious substance. The word has the meaning of a taper, and the
"boards" of the tabernacle were in shape like an inverted V. Every detail
of measurement and design confirms this fact. The walls of the
tabernacle were hollow.
Coming back to the Hebrew word tzehlag, which is here found to
mean a cell or vault, we now have no difficulty in applying it to the
"sides" of the tabernacle, for these enclosed a tapered vault. The bars
which ran through from end to end were inside of this tapered vault, as
well as the rings through which they passed.
These two examples are sufficient to establish the basic signification
of the word. It is a hollow cell. There is no reason for calling it a rib,
unless we slavishly follow the Septuagint, which is not consistent in its
renderings.
Having arrived at the conclusion that it was not a rib, but a cell of
some kind it behooves us to inquire from the Scriptures themselves what
its nature was and also to seek corroboration for our position in the facts
found in our physical frames. We need not fear any disagreement
between Scriptural truth and physical fact. They must and do agree. If
they do not we are wrong. If they coincide in our interpretation of their
testimony we are probably in possession of the truth.
It is a notable fact which is usually overlooked that humanity was
created male and female (Gen.1:27). The sexes were combined in one
individual. Adam was first formed, then Eve. There was an interval
between the creation of the man and the building of the woman. After the
creation of Adam God planted a garden eastward in Eden. He put the
man in the garden to dress it and keep it. He commanded the man as to
what he was and was not to eat, and He brought every animal of the field
to Adam, who gave them their names.
Let us press the fact, which is repeated in the fifth chapter that "In the
day that God created man...male and female created He them...and called
their name Adam in the day when they were created." It is evident that
the Scriptures are true in a much stricter sense than many suppose, that
the woman was taken out of man. Nothing new was created when the
woman was built. The man permanently lost part of his structure which
God removed when He created his helpmeet. In other words, the sexes
were separated and Adam retained only masculine functions and Eve
was builded from the feminine. And do not the facts of the physical
world perfectly confirm this interpretation? How could the removal of a
rib change Adam from an hermaphrodite to the exclusively masculine
structure of his descendants? Such a combination of the sexes is true
today of most plants and some worms and mollusks.
It seems most reasonable then, to believe, on the evidence of
Scripture as well as nature, that woman was not a separate creation from
man, but was built from that part of his original structure which he now
lacks.
This is fraught with much beautiful material for reflection. Man, once
complete in himself, is now but a part of his original self. The primal
perfection can only be attained by the union of the two. They are in very
deed one flesh. The One who severed them from one another in that deep
sleep which fell upon Adam is the One who yokes them together in holy
wedlock. And is not this the key to our Lord's discourse against divorce?
He is very emphatic. "From the beginning of creation He makes them
male and female." This can refer only to the time when both were
included in the one human being Adam. Hence, "On this account a man
will be leaving his father and mother and will be joined to his wife, and
the two will be for one flesh, so that they are no longer two, but one
flesh. Then that which God yokes together let no man be severing."
And here, indeed, we have the divine illustration of our union with
Christ. Though it seems beyond belief, He is incomplete without us. We
were chosen in Him before the disruption and now we become one with
Him in redemption. Here there is no divorce possible. The ecclesia is His
complement or fullness. It takes both to make a perfect body for the
Christ. The transcendent nature of this grace can only be absorbed by
mature meditation. May we have grace to enjoy it fully!"

[Tom]

WW and the rest of you who are especially interested in the Hebrew culture should appreciate this information. I'm posting it in this thread about desire, love, and marriage because it refers to Yahweh's overwhelming love for his chosen people and the ultimate marriage ceremony.

http://concordant.org/expohtml/TheUnveiling/TheUnveiling049.htm

[attachment deleted by admin]

[jbertonbounds]

Well, we got back around to marriage :).  I am NOT a lawyer, nor do I play one on TV or even local theatre.  All the following information is a layman's opinion and should not be considered legal advice.  :)


I agree with whatever else it is or isn't, it's

a commitment to God and each other

Maybe the Lutheran preacher was too strict one direction, when maybe he could have talked with them, encouraged to confess any sin if it were present, restore them, then perform the ceremony.  Being humans still in flesh though, I also believe we can assume license to sin the other direction too, by not really being serious and scriptural about it.

As I've said before, even if not done "legally" for whatever reason [although any truly pertinent laws of the land should be fully considered], I personally very much prefer some type of comittment "cermony"/promise/observance, even if those 2 people were on a deserted island and it was "only" between them and God.  Because I believe the other side of it, which could be spiritually dangerous is, if someone "plays games with it" by not really making a holy, spiritual, honest comittment before God.  So in essence are really just "shacking up" - maybe even going from one "wife" to another with little regard to "I truly take you as my wife, I give myself to you for life [considering all related scriptural issues re: adultary, perhaps abandonment, etc.] forsaking all others, cleaving only to you", etc.   Again, with all the scriptural things that apply.   God knows what's truly in our heart, and we can't fool Him.   :2c:

:thumbsup:  There is certainly a psychological benefit in marking the occasion with ceremony, celebration, spoken vows, and other harmless traditions.

[jbertonbounds]

Is it wrong though in all situations to have sex outside of marriage, even if it with someone I am intimate with?

YES.

:Chinscratch:
Sex with a woman married to another man is strictly forbidden. Sex with unmarried women is not.
Jacob had 4. http://tentmaker.org/forum/lounge/sons-of-jacob/msg137879/#msg137879
Solomon had 300 women.

In this verse sex often equals marriage:
Exodus 22:16-17
"If a man seduces a virgin who is not betrothed and lies with her, he shall give the bride-price for her and make her his wife. If her father utterly refuses to give her to him, he shall pay money equal to the bride-price for virgins.

Solomon and his wife Abishag/Shunammite didn't want a long betrothal period and suggested immediate consummation to seal the marriage.

:2c:

I think it's a bit vague to simply state that the scriptures do not forbit a man to have "sex with unmarried women."  I want to emphasize the part of Exodus 22.16 that instructs the man to "make her his wife."  I believe it is certainly sin for an unmarried man to have sex with an unmarried woman, and then just move on to the next one.

[jbertonbounds]

I notice some of you seem to believe that it's not a sin to fantasize about having sex with another person of the opposite sex, regardless of marital status. 
IMO, to carry it to the level of fantasizing IS the lust Jesus was talking about in the OP.
Would not fantasizing be equal to a strong, desiring type of lust that indicates a willingness to carry out the fantasy - thus sin?
Am I reading this right? :dontknow:

[WhiteWings]

:thumbsup:  There is certainly a psychological benefit in marking the occasion with ceremony, celebration, spoken vows, and other harmless traditions.

Sure they are harmless but I think not the way you mean.
Jesus, in fact huge parts of the Bible follow those traditions and vows.

Few things to back up that claim....

The wedding contract was worked out during a meal and written by a Scribe/Rabbi.
The contract consisted of 5 main parts.
1.   Family history of both bride and groom containing a detailed family tree and anecdotes.
a.   Genesis.
2.   Personal family history of the bride. Again with a detailed family tree and anecdotes.
a.   Exodus. Israel is God's bride.
3.   Personal family history of the groom. Again with a detailed family tree and anecdotes.
a.   Leviticus. God's family
4.   A story filled with anecdotes how the couple met.
a.   Numbers. The love affair, joy and sorrow about of God and Israel in the wilderness.
5.   Details about responsibilities of both groom and bride before and after the wedding. Payment, rights, etc.
a.   Deuteronomy lists all that's expected from God and Israel.

The contact was signed (=sealed) 7 times.
1.   Bride - David, God's beloved.
2.   Groom – Jesus.
3.   Father of the bride – Jacob (Israel)
4.   Father of the groom – Abraham (father of nations)
5.   Scribe – Moses wrote the 5 "Ketubah  books"
6.   Two witnesses. Adam and Noah.


:2c:

[jbertonbounds]

Back to the OP:

When desire grows to the point where it becomes a willingness to do a sinful act, is that when it becomes the sin of lust Jesus was talking about?

[WhiteWings]

Quoting myself from another thread:

In the ancient Jewish mind was not believing what we find in a dictionary.
Believing is 'our' definition plus actually doing it.
Believing and following the law of the was required.
When the law wasn't followed from the heart but because of regulations it was already broken.

In relation to your question I think the answer is yes.
Maybe not the act of adultery itself but by having such thoughts 'rejecting' the law.

[jabcat]

Would not fantasizing be equal to a strong, desiring type of lust ?

I believe so.  The definition of lust I'm familiar with is, "strong, intense desire".

[sheila]

   Ihave been reminded of Job....who made a 'covenant with his eyes' to not even look at

another woman.

    if you do unto other's as ye would have them do unto you....you realize that jealousy

  and feeling undesired or  un-appreciated or lacking in some area. in comparison to another.is

   hurtful.   Wisdom scriptures in Proverbs ch 5 invites her sons to pay attention;


    drink water from your owncistern[if you keep looking about with adulterous eyes at other

  women, your wife may start looking about too]


......Prvrbs 6;25 do not lust in your heart after her beauty,orlet her captivate you

with her eyes[eyes...desire of...covet]

  can a man scoop fire in his lap andnot be burned?


   Prvrbs 7;7Isaw amongthesimple,I noticed amongthe young men,a youth wholacked

judgement.

    God told Israel He would notpunish the adulterous wife due to the men of Israel

   themselves consorting with temple prostitutes.  they had hypocritically expected

a differnt standard for the women..then themselves.


  when you are looking about,remember sometimes just one glance is all it takes

  SOS 4;9  You have stolen my heart,my sister,my bride; you have stolen my heart

with one glance of your eyes,with onejewel of your necklace