As a kid growing up my family did we had a Christmas tree and decorated. But then i got older and became an atheist and quit caring about the holiday all together. Now that i am a believer and i have found universal reconciliation which has made religion and the bible make sense to me. Since Christmas is coming up i am thinking about the holiday again for the first time in a long time.
It seems like most UR believers don't really like Christmas because it's a Pagan holiday and really don't have anything to do with Jesus. So i am just wondering what UR believers think about it in general good or bad. And if you avoid it because it's pagan or just go along with it because it's the thought that counts more than the history of it.
My thoughts, as of now, and subject to change: almost anything can be pagan. The names of the planets, for example. I don't think you can accidentally become pagan. Idols are anything that get in the way of your relationship with God, something that you feel overly attached to. Many people make idols out of money, material objects, etc. I do put up a tree, and it is to me just a beautiful reminder of the festive season, the celebration of Jesus's birth (it is light up, he is the light of the world). I have two little kids and they know Santa is pretend because I don't want him to overshadow the true reason for the day and because I don't believe in lying to them about anything. We buy a couple of presets for the kids, read books about Jesus's birth, make cookies, visit with family, go to church, do things for others (make gifts, donate things). I think there is actually some historical evidence that Jesus actually was born on Dec 25 (star of Bethlehem, early Christians thought it was that day, etc). Anyway, I think celebrating is a good thing. Others may not, and that is okay too.
My reason and thought on this subject for some 20 yrs. even when I was a in Pentecost and preaching hell fire....I found no evidence of instruction for it's celebration, no evidence that it was ever recognized for celebration other than thankful praise that the SAVIOR IS BORN! I celebrate His birth everyday just as much as I celebrate everyday that HE IS RISEN! :dsunny:
Yes it separates from family and friends.... 2Co 6:17 Wherefore Come ye out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, And touch no unclean thing; And I will receive you,
2Co 6:18 And will be to you a Father, And ye shall be to me sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty. :Peace2:
Jeremiah 10:2-4:
"...Learn not the way of the heathen, and be not dismayed at the signs of heaven; the the heathen are dismayed at them. For the customs of the people are vain: for one cutteth a tree out of the forest, the work of the hands of the workman, with the ax. They deck it with silver and with gold; they fasten it with nails and with hammers, that it move not."
I think this an early reference to what we today call a Christmas Tree. God calls it vanity/futility, connects it with the heathen.
There was a thread about this a while back but I can't find it now, you can search and see if you can find it. I have heard all the arguments for and against, and I think it comes down to your conscience and being led by the Holy Spirit. Do you think by celebrating Christmas it will strengthen or hinder your walk with God? There may be different answers.
I am not going to be hypocritical. I think of Christmas as a holiday for joy in the middle of winter and for kindness, but I am also not bothered by Christians that celebrate the birth of Christ on December 25, or in January by the old calendar.
And as for pagans, well, nobody worships the tree or Santa Claus. :icon_jokercolor:
I kept Christmas as a young person. My parents kept it. It was a time of family gathering, decorating a tree, lots of food, attending church services. A time of celebration and a feeling of righteousness for honoring Jesus.
BUT is keeping Christmas something God wants us to do. I do not thing so.
A few points:
A careful analysis of Scripture, however, clearly indicates that Dec. 25 is an unlikely date for Christ's birth. Here are two primary reasons:
Shepherds were not in the fields during December. Luke's account "suggests that Jesus may have been born in summer or early fall. Since December is cold and rainy in Judea, it is likely the shepherds would have sought shelter for their flocks at night".
Second, Jesus' parents came to Bethlehem to register in a Roman census (Luke 2:1-4 Luke 2:1-41
Such censuses were not taken in winter, when temperatures often dropped below freezing and roads were in poor condition. Taking a census under such conditions would have been self-defeating.
The biblical accounts point to the fall of the year as the most likely time of Jesus' birth, based on the conception and birth of John the Baptist.
Assuming John's conception took place near the end of June, adding nine months brings us to the end of March as the most likely time for John's birth. Adding another six months (the difference in ages between John and Jesus) brings us to the end of September or early October as the likely time of Jesus' birth.
History shows that December 25 was popularized as the date for Christmas, not because Christ was born on that day, but because it was already popular in pagan religious celebrations as the birthday of the sun.
Although it is difficult to determine the first time anyone celebrated December 25 as Christmas Day, historians are in general agreement that it was sometime during the fourth century. This is an amazingly late date. Christmas was not observed in Rome, the capital of the Roman Empire, until about 300 years after Christ's death. Its origins cannot be traced back to either the teachings or practices of the earliest Christians.
The Bible nowhere mentions Christmas or tells us to celebrate Christ's birth.
This is not to say that the Bible doesn't tell us to commemorate a highly significant event in Jesus Christ's life on earth. It does —but that event is His death, not His birth.
Much more information concerning the fact that Christ was not born any where near Dec 25 is a historical fact. It originated well before Christ was born. That time around December 25 was a pagan celebration to worship the sun because of the winter solstice and the return of lengthening daylight.
If you do a Google search on this topic you will find much more information.
Many of my friends and some of my family keep Christmas because they view it as something a Christian should do. I would not consider trying to tell them its vain to keep it. I tried that a long time ago - to no avail.
:2c:
"For the customs of the peoples are worthless; they cut a tree out of the forest, and a craftsman shapes it with his chisel. They adorn it with silver and gold; they fasten it with hammer and nails so it will not totter" (Jeremiah 10:2-4, New International Version).
Christ, in the believer's heart, is born everyday, so Christmas is a bit vain because you should celebrate it every day.
Anyway, I keep Christmas to celebrate and remember the grace God shed over me in the day Christ were born for the first time in my soul. Of course, eating and drinking a lot in Christmas eve is not the perfect way to celebrate it (besides, here in Italy people eat a lot during celebrations), but why not having a service, or singing to Him a joyous song, or something similar?
Of course, Christmas was born as a pagan celebration, but we use many pagan things nowadays, and even the Jews used them! For example, Jesus spake about a "coat" (Matthew 5:40) which actually was a "chiton", a Greek mantle. It seems to me Jesus never condemned people who used it.
It is not "using pagan stuff" that makes you pagan (as long as you don't eat a sacrificial lamb slain for Zeus, of course :smile: ), but your heart. If your heart is pure, if you celebrate Christmas not as a "drink-eat-presents" day, but as a "Loving-Saviour-is-born" day, I don't see anything wrong. Anyway, we must remember that with God every day is a special day, and celebrating Christmas is not something we "ought" to do, or some day in which God is closer or anything like that, but only a special day in which we should firmly, joyously and continuously remember God's grace.
The last Christmas I remember my family celebrating was when I was five. So I grew up thinking it was bad to celebrate it but eventually came to see the bad fruit of that in looking down on those who did. Now for at least the last ten years I've gotten tired of my christian walk consisting of the long list of things 'we as Christians don't do'. :Pray: That includes Easter too and an endless list of excuses for bashing people to make ourselves feel more holy. Now since I came to understand universal reconciliation I don't want to condemn anybody for anything, maybe going too far that direction, I don't know. I still don't get into the celebration much but do love to think about Jesus birth into this world once in a while and also like to see others celebrating in whatever way they like, even those who I suppose you'd call unbelievers. Just my feelings about Christmas and a lot of things.
Oh I do love this topic.. (or am I being sarcastic? I'm not really sure! :dontknow: :laughing7: :Peace2: )
My daughter grew up with a friend who's family was Jehovah Witnesses, who never celebrated Christ-mass or birthdays.. and she was simply always resentful of it, having to miss them (can tell something by its fruit, I figure).
Romans 14 says "let no one judge you concerning meats or days, but let each one be fully persuaded in their own mind" - I may have two verse/chapters overlapping.. You can eat meat offered to idols, it says, unless your brother who thinks it's wrong to eat it is with you, then think of him, who may be tempted to eat but will then condemn himself..
Same with the Sabbath "some observe the day unto the LORD, another does not observe the day, also unto the LORD" ..."who are you to judge your brother?"
I heard someone say once, a missionary to China, that one of the best ways they can witness to people in China, is through the holidays of East-er and Christmas, as it wouldn't get you arrested.
The days of the week are called by pagan names.. Saturday - the LORD's very own Sabbath is named after the 'god' Saturnalia... The third Spring Holy Day always occurred on Sunday, as did Pentecost - some folks think sunday worship of the Lord is the mark of the beast.. Like any day actually belongs to anyone but Yahweh who created them.
I figure the same with Christmas.. the adversary may have confiscated the day, then Christianity covered it.. and I have no desire to see it given back to the pagans..
Christmas lights remind me of stained glass windows..
In Old Testament days it was a heathen practice to cut down a tree, decorate it and bow down to it, as a representative of so called gods who were immortal.. (pine) but Paul said what is offered to idols as to a god, we know are no gods.. If a tree offends, I wouldn't do it.. But I absolutely think western civilization and society is much better off with the (christian) holidays than not.. even if many only perceive it as materialism.. Still many are able to use it to point to the savior. We may celebrate His birth every day, but the world doesn't.
Just my :2c: :Peace2: :Peace2: :girlheart:
I celebrate Christmas myself. I believe, according to my analysis of Jeremiah 10, seeing it in the larger context, that the passage is about creating idols (i.e. images of gods or animals) and worshiping them. He talks about forming idols out of metal and also out of wood. The whole passage is about idol worship.
I believe God looks at the intent of the heart and judges us according to that, which is why we can eat meat sacrificed to idols and not be unclean for it. Someone who opens presents and decorates a Christmas tree is no more made unclean than someone who eats meat sacrificed to an idol. Meat is meat. A tree is a tree. Wrapped presents are wrapped presents. They are not unclean in themselves. But what proceeds from the heart makes one unclean. IMO
Quote from: bushy on November 11, 2015, 07:45:42 PM
The last Christmas I remember my family celebrating was when I was five. So I grew up thinking it was bad to celebrate it but eventually came to see the bad fruit of that in looking down on those who did. Now for at least the last ten years I've gotten tired of my christian walk consisting of the long list of things 'we as Christians don't do'. :Pray: That includes Easter too and an endless list of excuses for bashing people to make ourselves feel more holy. Now since I came to understand universal reconciliation I don't want to condemn anybody for anything, maybe going too far that direction, I don't know. I still don't get into the celebration much but do love to think about Jesus birth into this world once in a while and also like to see others celebrating in whatever way they like, even those who I suppose you'd call unbelievers. Just my feelings about Christmas and a lot of things.
:iagree:
:iagree:
I absolutely celebrate Christmas. However it began, it is a time to be joyful, give thanks, and remember the humble beginnings of our precious Savior. He was not born in a castle with royalty, but in a lowly stable, with no room for him in the inn. He came among us, in this manner, and, even in His birth, teaches us what is truly important in life.
I am not big on presents, but I do give some. And I never taught my children about Santa or all that......only about Jesus, and His birth. My children never got lots of toys, but only a few. And there were always lots of ways we celebrated through Church, community, friends and family, and in sharing with those who were in need, always in His name. Christmas music was always a wonderful part of Christmas for me. As a child, I loved to be in the church choir for Christmas.
I find no conflict with this, at all.
So, Merry Christmas, everyone! Be blessed. :dsunny:
D.
I have and haven't kept it. I was doing some research on the Festival of Dedication[lights] this week...and considering keeping that this
year. When I come across some things I found interesting. Hannuka[festival of lights] is Chislev 25 Nov-Dec. the candles are of different
colours. They have already begun stringing the lights in the park for the Thanksgiving-Christmas season next door to me.Co-incidence?
:dontknow: an olive tree is an evergreen...and before modern lights people would place candles on it. I thought of ....
the BRANCH and the golden oil...and the Menorah. The helper...the gift of eternal life through His son[lights the candle of every man]
:dontknow: maybe some of these customs/traditions are not as diabolical as some of the religions have taught.
pmegranates come in red,yellow pink,purple and christmas bulbs are similiar.....silver bells..also make up trimming...along with
a 'garland" of red/blue purple.
I consider the driedel as a disguise during times of persecution as a symbol of sacred things and a teaching tool...and I can't help
but wonder at the symbology of a tree/branch with lights/poms/bells/garlands during a season of great darkness. Somewhat
like a disguised menorah/the BRANCH of the Lord..our High Priest..with poms.bells and bordered/garland with blue/red and purple.
co-incidence? :dontknow: but I saw the similatude. which I was not looking for.
Quote from: Dandelion on November 13, 2015, 01:28:59 PM
I absolutely celebrate Christmas. However it began, it is a time to be joyful, give thanks, and remember the humble beginnings of our precious Savior. He was not born in a castle with royalty, but in a lowly stable, with no room for him in the inn. He came among us, in this manner, and, even in His birth, teaches us what is truly important in life.
I am not big on presents, but I do give some. And I never taught my children about Santa or all that......only about Jesus, and His birth. My children never got lots of toys, but only a few. And there were always lots of ways we celebrated through Church, community, friends and family, and in sharing with those who were in need, always in His name. Christmas music was always a wonderful part of Christmas for me. As a child, I loved to be in the church choir for Christmas.
I find no conflict with this, at all.
So, Merry Christmas, everyone! Be blessed. :dsunny:
D.
"And may God bless us, every one!" - Tiny Tim
Christmas is a lot of things, some pleasant and some not so good. But to the pure all things arer pure- as in Dandelion's approach, which is similar to mine over the years. My Mom was a Christmas nut in a very good way, so I learned to love Christmas early and the music was the main testimony to Jesus in my early life (we didnt go to church).
God rest you merry, gentlemen
Let nothing you dismay
For Jesus Christ, our Saviour
Was born upon this day,
To save us all from Satan's power
When we were gone astray.
O tidings of comfort and joy,
...9And an angel of the Lord suddenly stood before them, and the glory of the Lord shone around them; and they were terribly frightened. 10But the angel said to them, "Do not be afraid; for behold, I bring you good news of great joy which will be for all the people; 11for today in the city of David there has been born for you a Savior, who is Christ the Lord....Luke 2:9 - 11
Amen!
:girlheart:
I am not opposed to Christmas, but it's interesting to note that, in recent years in which I have evaluated many matters of faith for myself and related them to my own life, my interest in Christmas has declined. I think it is because I have gone from a faith that was "handed down" from Christian tradition to a faith that has developed from personal study and reflection on Scripture. As a result, traditions such as Christmas don't mean as much; I've found a year-round source of inspiration.
As for the pagan roots, I think it helps to think about the issue in reverse. That is, what would happen if pagans engaged in Christian rituals such as Baptism or Communion. Getting immersed in water has no spiritual significance for an unbeliever. Likewise, eating bread and drinking wine have no spiritual significance for an unbeliever. Paul warned against practicing communion carelessly, but this assumed that the bread and wine were consumed in a Christian ceremony. If done outside a Christian context, it would not mean anything. Likewise, even if pagans decorated trees or celebrated on Dec. 25, I think that such rituals lose their spiritual harm when they are taken out of the pagan context.
My family celebrates Christmas, and I like the lights and the music. I relate the Christmas themes of joy and salvation to my faith in the Victorious Gospel. However, I could be just as content during that time of year without Christmas.
As long as I still get my break from college :laugh:
" I am not opposed to Christmas, but it's interesting to note that, in recent years in which I have evaluated many matters of faith for myself and related them to my own life, my interest in Christmas has declined. I think it is because I have gone from a faith that was "handed down" from Christian tradition to a faith that has developed from personal study and reflection on Scripture. As a result, traditions such as Christmas don't mean as much; I've found a year-round source of inspiration. "
Amen!!
I cannot convert anyone, but know they will learn in their own time.
The Jews had to live in Babylon for a while and not try to escape or they would die.
We currently live under the Babylonian system. Do not agree with them, but know they are there until judgment day.
Revelations refers to the Babylonian system.
So we press on as a light in a dark place.
At least christmas lights are a warm fuzzy thing.
:dsunny:
SOME WISE WORDS :HeartThrob:
Jesus christ come to bring down BABYLON [confusion by mixing ] in one Day by judgments set against ... the works and lying wonders of the devil , religion riding on the beast /mankind's carnal mindsets [seat of emotions ] . as His feet / teaching touches the earth bringing forth the Light of Holy Spirit and fire to melt them elements away from our cold and entombed hearts ! YaY !!!expressing triumph, approval, or encouragement :Pray:
Quote from: Graph1159 on November 20, 2015, 05:41:07 AM
I am not opposed to Christmas, but it's interesting to note that, in recent years in which I have evaluated many matters of faith for myself and related them to my own life, my interest in Christmas has declined. I think it is because I have gone from a faith that was "handed down" from Christian tradition to a faith that has developed from personal study and reflection on Scripture. As a result, traditions such as Christmas don't mean as much; I've found a year-round source of inspiration.
As for the pagan roots, I think it helps to think about the issue in reverse. That is, what would happen if pagans engaged in Christian rituals such as Baptism or Communion. Getting immersed in water has no spiritual significance for an unbeliever. Likewise, eating bread and drinking wine have no spiritual significance for an unbeliever. Paul warned against practicing communion carelessly, but this assumed that the bread and wine were consumed in a Christian ceremony. If done outside a Christian context, it would not mean anything. Likewise, even if pagans decorated trees or celebrated on Dec. 25, I think that such rituals lose their spiritual harm when they are taken out of the pagan context.
My family celebrates Christmas, and I like the lights and the music. I relate the Christmas themes of joy and salvation to my faith in the Victorious Gospel. However, I could be just as content during that time of year without Christmas.
As long as I still get my break from college :laugh:
I see it similarly to you. To me Christmas is a secular holiday. I also see the value in remembering Christ that day, but I feel that should be on any day too. I believe that Babylon is inward. To come out of Babylon is to come out of the slavery that must be broken from the inside out.
The way I look at it is that God's commandments are to "believe in Jesus and love eachother." Anything inhibiting those commandments should be abandoned. Anything that does not, or even enhances those commandments is benign, like meat sacrificed to idols, a pagan practice.
I like the traditional holidays for gathering family.. I like to listen to Christ-mass carols any time of year.. especially O Holy Night .."fall on your knees" is my favorite line :smile:
I think the babylon of 'last' days is the empire of man going global.. And I think "come out of her" is also literal [as well as metaphor of coming out of all confusion/untruth (which is "responsible for all slain upon earth")] As I think the large hail John saw in the revelation vision from Jesus, is debris.
:Peace2: :smile:
I agree with you, Marie! :sigh: :thumbsup:
:cloud9: I don't and I have to say I was rejoicing over being totally free from it and it's trappings, a few days ago. I also have to say that obeying the dietary laws too since He opened it up to me fully, has also made a big difference in me and I would highly recommend both.
I was not always observant, but I found deliverance comes from doing these things, something I never would have guessed a few years back, nor did I expect what the deliverance would be from. I will say both came about after a personal word from Him, and I don't condemn anyone for either. We're all at different places in our walk with Him, and we are to all things with love, for Him and for one another. Peace
Hi Cardinal, when you say "deliverance comes from doing these things." Do you mean deliverance from sin? Or deliverance from what you personally don't like about Christmas and foods you no longer eat? I say that because I feel if I have to struggle to avoid things I do enjoy which have no impact on my deliverance from sin, I would feel more enslaved than delivered. I don't feel that avoiding Christmas or pork will make me love my neighbor more or less.
:cloud9: If you understand what deliverance IS, then I mean I got delivered of something that was in my flesh, that was holding me back (as everything does that is not of Him). Prior to this, for years, I thought I could eat what I pleased because of the white sheet of Peter's, which is how most of Christianity interprets it. But the Spirit began to deal with me over it, and I saw it is NOT about making unclean foods clean, but about the gentiles, which it clearly states. In fact, those things are not even listed AS foods to begin with, so the whole debate about whether to eat them or not, should have never occurred because HE did not give them as food for man in the first place.
The ONLY exception is for the cause of LOVE, the situation being where someone serves you the unclean item, and rather than to cause them to stumble you PRAY over it, and because the motive of the heart is right, it is not counted against what YOU know to be right. But our love for Him and His WORD is supposed to be number one and is what caused me to comply and have my eyes opened and experience deliverance. Our love for the brethren and not causing someone to stumble over it, is the fulfillment of the law that Jesus said, ie. loving God first, and our neighbor as our self.
If everywhere you replace law with the word Torah, including the phrase man of LAW-lessness, I realized I was that "man", and he was being revealed in me, as being Torah-less. The law is fulfilled spiritually in us, as we walk it out, being instant in season and out, as the Lord leads us to experience different things. This is how He writes it upon our hearts. Now the dietary is truly fulfilled in me, because I abstain for His sake, but will partake for "their" sake, if need be. So then that law has no harm to me, nor that sin any mastery over me, but I over it, by what the Spirit has made life in me. See?
And as such, once fulfilled, the flesh that was being kept alive by neglecting to allow this law to be fulfilled spiritually in me, was swiftly dealt with, by the Spirit of the Lord.
There has been this whole blinding thing over the body pertaining to working out our own salvation with trembling and fear. Jesus did provide it all for us, but we still have to walk it out with the Spirit and APPROPRIATE what He did and cleanse our garments, spotted by the flesh.
Now as for part of what it did for me, my doctor did a blood test for diabetes that goes back 3 months, this last spring. It came back that I was diabetic. I refused the diagnosis, telling my doctor that was impossible, because the Lord had led me to do 18 days of fasting just prior to the test, the first few days on veggies, the second week on bread and water, the last week on water alone. Since I had taken care of diabetics in my career, I told him this was why I knew I wasn't because if they had done even the first few days, much less the last few, they'd have landed in the hospital by the second day. He prescribed meds, I refused them. He did another 3 month blood test exactly 3 months after the first one, and lo and behold, it came back I was just fine, perfectly normal. He insists still that I was diabetic, and had the lab recheck it. Now whether I was or was not, the Lord took care of it. My :2c: Blessings....
I guess I have a different view of what John meant when he defined sin as lawlessness. He says
1 John 3
21Dear friends, if our hearts do not condemn us, we have confidence before God 22and receive from him anything we ask, because we keep his commands and do what pleases him. 23And this is his command: to believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ, and to love one another as he commanded us.
The commandments, or law, that John is speaking about is the commandment to believe in Jesus and love one another, not to observe the dietary laws, sacrifice laws or any other part of the Torah. They all find their oneness in loving eachother. That's how we can both please God and yet not be under the tablets and parchments.
When John defines sin, he does so through faith and love, not faith, love and pork. Or faith love and tithing. Or faith, love and sabbaths. So, speaking for myself here, lawlessness does not mean Torah-lessness.
Sin = love-lessness and faith-lessness.
That's why I see Christmas and eating pork as non-issues for me because they are not stumbling blocks to those things, and I know that if I continue to believe in Jesus and love my neighbor I cannot displease God; according to John our hearts cannot condemn us if we walk in love and faith.
My heart will only condemn me if I fall away from loving my neighbor and/or falling from faith, which I have done before. And that is what I think deliverance from sin is about, deliverance from a life without love. That is why I can celebrate Christmas and eat pork with a clear conscience to God.
:cloud9: And that you can, UNLESS He gives you a Spirit breathed personal word to do, or not to do something. Then you are accountable to that word, for man lives not by bread alone but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God.
I am relating my experience with such a word, and what that word pertained to. You cannot judge me if I do go by Torah, anymore than I can judge you if you don't, because we are all accountable for what we know, and THAT by the Spirit. Amen?
There is LIFE in it to be gleaned, even today, and even to Christians. That's what I'm sharing. Most Christians view the law as unnecessary, inapplicable to them, old covenant, ect., ect. I know; I was one of them. But there is LIFE in it, hidden yet available, for us, even today.
For about a year now, the Lord has been having myself and several others read out loud certain parts of the OT, for specific periods of time. Something about giving the breath to it. And He is blessing it. What I just shared is part of THAT. Some things are simply inexplicable for a season because He doesn't want us to know why we're doing something, until it has born fruit. I would guess, so the carnal mind can't contaminate it. Time is running out very swiftly. Blessings....
Quoteunless he gives you a personal to do, or not to do something. Then you are accountable to that word, for man lives not by bread alone but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God.
I am relating my experience with such a word, and what that word pertained to. You cannot judge me if I do go by Torah, anymore than I can judge you if you don't, because we are all accountable for what we know, and THAT by the Spirit. Amen?
Yes I would agree with that. People should do what they feel led to do. That's why I asked to clarify about deliverance. For me, there is no deliverance in avoiding meats and holidays. For you there is. I think it's important to make that distinction. The idea that there is deliverance in avoiding pork is true for you personally, not a general condition for deliverance for everyone. That's why I asked. I hope you don't think I was judging you for following the Torah. You must do what you feel is right. I just think it's good in this conversation to distinguish what is a general condition/commandment for Chrisitans concerning deliverance, and what are personal ones.
:cloud9: I felt that's what you meant, and that's why I went to extra lengths to explain as best I could so the agreement could be seen. Sometimes words just are not adequate, ya know? :thumbsup: Blessings....
One more thing I'd like to add; I never really felt Christ in 'Christmas', even if they try so hard to fit Him in. :dontknow:
But I do not condemn those who celebrate Christmas as a holy day either, nor the ones that see it as a pop culture thing, more like me.
:thumbsup:
Be honest, carnal man and religion created a birthday celebration for Jesus, you certainly can't find instruction for it's celebration in the Bible.
Forget the tree thing, carnal man has a habit of making things to show the how religious he can be.
You want to celebrate a certain day fine, you want to give more gifts to your family members and friends on a certain day fine,
just quit trying to make it something that hallows the BIRTH OF THE SAVIOUR. :2c: :Peace2:
I think the carnal man has big problems, and choosing a Roman holiday (not the movie :laughing7: ) to celebrate the birth of the Christ is certainly one that sticks out for the rest of us...
Quote from: Eduard on November 30, 2015, 05:17:42 AM
I think the carnal man has big problems, and choosing a Roman holiday (not the movie :laughing7: ) to celebrate the birth of the Christ is certainly one that sticks out for the rest of us...
Your reply is good, christmas and all the hoopdeelaa of saying merry christmas in stead of happy holidays is a weak display and quite dishonest.
The 25th of Dec. is a "holiday celebration" for people who desire a day to swap gifts and be happy, eat a great dinner with friends and family.
And THAT is a a good thing...good cheer...giving..and feeling good. Yet, that should be everyday or any day without recognition as something more. :dsunny:
Like Eduard, I approach it from a secular point of view. Although, something that places Jesus into people's minds can't be all bad. I think it can become an idol like anything, but again I recall Tiny Tim who said he wished he could be seen in public at Christmas time so that people could remember who it was who made the lame to walk and the blind to see. It's hard for me to belabor that, even though I agree we should be remembering that every day. It's not exactly an evil sentiment after all.
Even if Christmas has pagan roots, I think I like the idea of Babylon's riches being plundered and given over to Jesus. I don't think people who remember him on Christmas are accidentally worshiping a false god. It's what's in the heart that counts.
It reminds me of the gifts of the Magi. If the gold and spices had been mined and harvested and prayed over by pagans, would Jesus have refused their gifts that they carried so far to give him?
What about the fragrant oil the woman gave Jesus at his feet? If it was procured and created for a pagan feast, would he have sent her on her way and refused because it was not of the purest source and created with the best intentions?
I think people offer Jesus what they have to give.
"Tiny Tim" ???
"Like Eduard, I approach it from a secular point of view..." Now that's biblical?
"I don't think people who remember him on Christmas are accidentally worshiping a false god. It's what's in the heart that counts."
If it is in the heart why the need for such a day?
"I think people offer Jesus what they have to give." Yes, offer to Jesus...everyday, any day!
"It's not exactly an evil sentiment after all." No it is not amen, so why produce such secular demonstrations?
Jesus is born everyday when He finds someone, Jesus is risen everyday when that someone is awakened to His ownership.
So I must ask why a day of christmas of celebration? :Peace2:
I don't have a big dog in this fight, i think people should be educated about it and then go by their own conscience and family needs, etc. But
Quote from: Seth on November 30, 2015, 06:37:43 AM
I don't think people who remember him on Christmas are accidentally worshiping a false god. It's what's in the heart that counts.
i like that statement
Quote from: jabcat on November 30, 2015, 07:27:58 AM
I don't have a big dog in this fight, i think people should be educated about it and then go by their own conscience and family needs, etc. But
Quote from: Seth on November 30, 2015, 06:37:43 AM
I don't think people who remember him on Christmas are accidentally worshiping a false god. It's what's in the heart that counts.
i like that statement
"Don't believe it's a big dog, little dog fight at least I hope it has not come down to that, but, "
I think people should be educated about it and then go by their own conscience..."
Educated in what way? Should education show that such a day is not shown and instructed in the Bible and so "conscience" (a carnal awakening attribute) expresses a want to, then get it on? Is this education from milk to strong meat?
I really and honestly don't understand, this forum for me, at least is for the discovery of truths from souls yearning, digging, searching, and seeking truth. Not holding on to things built in Babylon and extending on those carnal thoughts. The Yule tide celebration is not in the Bible, never spoken of yet there is debate should we or shouldn't we. I just don't get it. :Peace2:
Educated in this way; its origins, meanings, roots, etc. Then, everyone has to answer for themselves. Some peoples' conscience condemns them, others' don't. Some may find it so distasteful they can't/won't participate at all. Some may participate because they want to keep harmony in the family, while still perhaps letting it be known they don't personally put great stock in it as a religious holiday to observe, but as a family, fun day. Others obviously celebrate it out of ignorance, thinking they're truly serving God by doing so. IMO, they're not to be condemned or as Seth said, accused of worshiping a false or "another" god. Until they know better, and until/unless God convicts them, they're going to do the best they know how.
Paraphrasing Apostle Paul - One honors a day, another esteems each day as the same...one eats meat [offered to idols, knowing it won't hurt him, as nothing is unclean in itself] another doesn't. They both do it as unto God, giving thanks...
Quote from: micah7:9 on November 30, 2015, 07:25:40 AM
"Tiny Tim" ???
Yeah Tiny Tim from A Christmas Carol. He said he wished on Christmas Day for people to look at him and remember who it was that made the lame walk and the blind see. I think that's beautiful.
Quote"Like Eduard, I approach it from a secular point of view..." Now that's biblical?
I think you mistook my meaning. I treat Christmas as a cultural holiday. Christmas music, trees, wreaths, food, not a religious one; but I don't belabor anyone who takes it from a religious perspective to remember or honor Christ. Because honoring Christ is a good thing in itself.
Quote"I don't think people who remember him on Christmas are accidentally worshiping a false god. It's what's in the heart that counts."
If it is in the heart why the need for such a day?
It's not about NEED. I don't eat pepperoni pizza because I need it, but because I enjoy it. Same with Christmas.
Quote"I think people offer Jesus what they have to give." Yes, offer to Jesus...everyday, any day!
Yes, I agree.
QuoteJesus is born everyday when He finds someone, Jesus is risen everyday when that someone is awakened to His ownership.
So I must ask why a day of christmas of celebration? :Peace2:
Because it's enjoyable? Is there something wrong with enjoyment of something that doesn't hinder one's walk with Christ?
One point of clarification/agreement. I think if people put pressure on Christians to celebrate Christmas, that is when I bring up that it's not in the Bible. Nobody should feel that they are doing wrong by not celebrating Christmas. But, strictly speaking, drinking a Coca Cola isn't "Biblical" in the sense that it's not in the Bible, but that doesn't mean it is forbidden. I see it the same with Christmas.
All things are permissible, but not everything is expedient.
Comes down to personal conviction.
Quote from: Seth on November 30, 2015, 08:18:38 AM
One point of clarification/agreement. I think if people put pressure on Christians to celebrate Christmas, that is when I bring up that it's not in the Bible. Nobody should feel that they are doing wrong by not celebrating Christmas. But, strictly speaking, drinking a Coca Cola isn't "Biblical" in the sense that it's not in the Bible, but that doesn't mean it is forbidden. I see it the same with Christmas.
Well you totally blew me away with that one! But ok, if you all are happy with no established biblical purpose for such a day of celebration have at it. Personally if Jesus was taken out of the reason for the season I would have no say in it at all. :Peace2:
Interesting to see how many other religions god's were born on Dec 25.
Also interesting how those other religions usually have some water of life involved somewhere.
This is a very interesting thread! I agree with everyone who says that one must be convinced in their own mind, as treating each other with a lack of love over such things would be a graver offense...
But as to my two pennies, for what it is worth (tuppence, I guess!), I have never kept Xmas and really dislike it intensely. However, I have annual practice at showing mutual understanding during the season, as my wife keeps it with her family, so we treat each other's views with respect as she does her Xmas things and I stay at home with the dog. :winkgrin:
My view of it - and again, no offense intended - is that there is a spirit behind such things, and that if the root is holy, the branches will be holy. I don't think Xmas is from a holy root, and it seems to bear fruit after it's kind. The whole idea of "taking it for Christ" seems hollow, as Xmas is still clearly beloved by unbelievers the world over. If it was born of the Spirit of Christ, would not the world hate it? So then, it appears to me as an awkward and uneasy attempt at an alliance between Christ and the world, even down to the telling of a great lie (Santa) and a great truth (Christ) about two invisible men. Santa is works based, remembering all rights and wrongs, while Christ has atoned for all sin. Let me just add I do not say all Christian parents tell the Santa lie, just that you have that parallel running through the season.
In addition, you have the incredible amount of commercialism, while the nativity story is superimposed on top of it, creating that uneasy alliance once again, as both God and Mammon are served in the same season.
Ultimately, Christians I know often tell me how it is "all about Jesus" for them, yet I tell you the truth - I work for a Christian run business, where many believers have worked, and I go whole Xmas seasons without hearing a single one of them even breathe the words "Jesus Christ", and yet I hear much of Santa, reindeer, mistletoe, Xmas trees, and such things. So to a very large degree, I have found their protestations about how much it is about Jesus to be window dressing. To me, there is a spirit of the season that is not the Spirit of Christ.
Again, this is just my own perspective and thoughts. I agree with Seth's comments about loving one's neighbor, and also what was said about being led by the Spirit, which is loving God, the greatest commandment of all. Ultimately, how we treat one another and answer one another when we disagree about such things, can show our love for one another more than if we were in constant agreement about every matter! :dsunny:
All people are in different places as far as their faith and growing closer to God by following the Holy Spirit. I like Cardinal and Seth's exchange and agree with their sentiments. Yes many atheists and Christians-in-name-only celebrate Christmas. Yes the materialism is immoral. But I still feel led to celebrate. And I am celebrating Jesus's birth. I am celebrating "tidings of joy, for ALL people" when Jesus was born. The bible didn't tell me personally to celebrate but angels told the shepherds to rejoice, and wise men traveled following a star. We live in a physical (carnal) world and physical symbols and celebrations help us remember things. Some people may be more spiritually evolved and may not need or want to participate which is fine. As I have had my eyes opened (yes I'm sure there are still more scales to fall, for me and for everyone else) I have abandoned some of the secular aspects...such as Santa, secular music, the materialism/consumerism. One really can't celebrate every day in the same way that devoting a day or month can lend itself to really immersing yourself in remembering that pivotal day when Jesus was born.
"8And there were in the same country shepherds abiding in the field, keeping watch over their flock by night. 9And, lo, the angel of the Lord came upon them, and the glory of the Lord shone round about them: and they were sore afraid. 10And the angel said unto them, Fear not: for, behold, I bring you good tidings of great joy, which shall be to all people. 11For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Saviour, which is Christ the Lord. 12And this shall be a sign unto you; Ye shall find the babe wrapped in swaddling clothes, lying in a manger. 13And suddenly there was with the angel a multitude of the heavenly host praising God, and saying,
14Glory to God in the highest, and on earth peace, good will toward men."
I posted a couple of songs "God rest ye merry gentlemen" and "oh holy night" ... Those along with some others are great UR songs IMO and I could listen to them all year. And I do think for the majority of humanity who are walking in the carnal/physical and not spiritual, they can have a glimpse of the glory to come if only through Christmas carols proclaiming Jesus the savior of all mankind.
I am not trying to convince anyone they SHOULD celebrate, I truly believe it can be different for different people. Please don't try to convince me that you know my heart or intentions.
"carnal man has a habit of making things to show the how religious he can be."
My personal experience only...those in my life who don't celebrate give off the appearance of trying to show how religious they can be.
Show doesn't matter on either account (and it doesn't matter what you or I judge), it is our hearts, which only God knows.
The spirit of Judgement on this threat is bothering me, to the point that I may have to reevaluate my presence here.
I tire of the "pagan this" "pagan that" mentality. It gripped me for a season and I feared and everyone around me were somehow in bed with Babylon. I am free of that now and do not wish to return.
God bless.
I really havent been following this thread, but I hav some thoughts on it. Some people are offended by the commercialization. Some by ideas of dates being combined with old pagan feast days like Easter and eggs and all of that. I tend to agree with God is Love on this in that to the pure all things are pure. For those who celebrate Christmas in the spirit of glorifying Christ(few tho they may be) it is an opportunity to spread the gospel.
Certainly at the very least it falls within the category of days that- if one man observes let him do it unto the Lord and if another does not let that one do so as unto the Lord and let love rule betwen the two- because that is the foundation.
Jesus turned water into wine. He wasnt hung up on stuff we think He was/is hung up on.
16 Therefore no one is to act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day— 17 things which are a mere shadow of what is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ. 18 Let no one keep defrauding you of your prize by delighting in self-abasement and the worship of the angels, taking his stand on visions he has seen, inflated without cause by his fleshly mind, 19 and not holding fast to the head, from whom the entire body, being supplied and held together by the joints and ligaments, grows with a growth which is from God.
20 If you have died with Christ to the elementary principles of the world, why, as if you were living in the world, do you submit yourself to decrees, such as, 21 "Do not handle, do not taste, do not touch!" 22 (which all refer to things destined to perish with use)—in accordance with the commandments and teachings of men? 23 These are matters which have, to be sure, the appearance of wisdom in self-made religion and self-abasement and severe treatment of the body, but are of no value against fleshly indulgence.
9But now that you have come to know God, or rather to be known by God, how is it that you turn back again to the weak and worthless elemental things, to which you desire to be enslaved all over again? 10You observe days and months and seasons and years. 11I fear for you, that perhaps I have labored over you in vain....
My Mom was a huge Christmas freak all my life. She just loved the holidays and the family gatherings and the music and singing. I dislike the whole gift gorging thing but I enjoy those other things and celebrate freely with my family as unto Christ, even tho I may know a few things about what Christmas really is that they dont.
One of the biggest errors of the Jews was they pursued the law in order to establish their own righteousness(Romans 10). They got holier than thou and puffed up in knowledge and forgot about love.... that in all things we ought to edify. Love edifies, knowledge puffs up.
Its a shame when we get even further separated from the ones we love by obnoxious self righteous attitudes when we could shine in the midst of them and just not give in to the stuff that is carnal..... but thats just my opinion, it is how I live it out.
GodIsLove - I hope you do not leave, as you appear to be debating. A thread like this is going to bring out a lot of different opinions, and oftentimes they will be stated quite starkly, but you would be missed!
Col 2
21"Do not handle! Do not taste! Do not touch!"? 22These rules, which have to do with things that are all destined to perish with use, are based on merely human commands and teachings. 23Such regulations indeed have an appearance of wisdom, with their self-imposed worship, their false humility and their harsh treatment of the body, but they lack any value in restraining sensual indulgence.
In this scripture, I see two sides of the pendulum regarding this issue of Christmas. On the one hand we have the regulation TO celebrate Christmas (i.e. imposed worship, you're not a true Christian if you don't nonsense), and also the everything-is-tainted folks (touch not, handle not).
I like how Paul said that these rules are dealing with things that perishes with use (pork, trees, holy days), rather than love itself which never perishes. And I think the connection between the fanatical pro and anti positions have to do with "appearance of wisdom" or "false humility." Nobody on this conversation has struck me that way, because both positions are coming from a place of sincerity.
But, what the above scripture tells me is that it's not just what we MAKE that can be an expression of carnality. On the other hand - the things we AVOID can be an expression of the carnal man too. Where anything that gives us pleasure becomes carnal and asceticism is the way to please God. I think it's keeping humble - and not building a tower of religious pride to heaven either in the pro-Christmas or anti-Christmas stance - keeps us from judging each other.
Eaglesway, :thumbsup:
:gimmefive:
Quote from: Seth on November 30, 2015, 07:46:59 PM
Col 2
21"Do not handle! Do not taste! Do not touch!"? 22These rules, which have to do with things that are all destined to perish with use, are based on merely human commands and teachings. 23Such regulations indeed have an appearance of wisdom, with their self-imposed worship, their false humility and their harsh treatment of the body, but they lack any value in restraining sensual indulgence.
In this scripture, I see two sides of the pendulum regarding this issue of Christmas. On the one hand we have the regulation TO celebrate Christmas (i.e. imposed worship, you're not a true Christian if you don't nonsense), and also the everything-is-tainted folks (touch not, handle not).
I like how Paul said that these rules are dealing with things that perishes with use (pork, trees, holy days), rather than love itself which never perishes. And I think the connection between the fanatical pro and anti positions have to do with "appearance of wisdom" or "false humility." Nobody on this conversation has struck me that way, because both positions are coming from a place of sincerity.
But, what the above scripture tells me is that it's not just what we MAKE that can be an expression of carnality. On the other hand - the things we AVOID can be an expression of the carnal man too. Where anything that gives us pleasure becomes carnal and asceticism is the way to please God. I think it's keeping humble - and not building a tower of religious pride to heaven either in the pro-Christmas or anti-Christmas stance - keeps us from judging each other.
Amen Seth. Ultimately, anything that keeps Jesus Christ from being the central point and focus of our faith is a losing scenario. To judge our brethren on something that is not clearly sin, is to judge Gods parenting of our siblings, as He is leading us all through various paths. The Xmas question is a bit like the church system question - to tell people whether or not to do such and such is to try and take over the parenting from God.
I do like threads like this, because (believe it or not) I like hearing viewpoints different to my own expressed in love, and in clarity of thought. It is much more beneficial to hear other perspectives on an issue, than to heap up "yes men" around oneself.
:thumbsup: Seth....your post hit the nail on the head,I think.
AgreedShev...
Disagreement also sometimes reveal that we are too personally attached to aur views in the ego.
Disagreement should never provoke anger. Such a response reveals insecurity or arrogance or fear or whatever.
I know because i was there for a long time. Debating to serve God can become a really deep rabbit whole!
The fire tests the metal, and altho I still get riled up once in awhile... I see that for what it is(flesh) and put it under subjection to the grace of God. We think it is the metal of our doctrine that is being tested.... God is really just testing our love, humility, forgiveness, patience, tolerance, forbearance, meekness and kindness(just to name a few :o)
excellant counsel there brother[ew]
:dsunny:
:Chinscratch: :dontknow: :bdh: :HeartThrob:
Dead Horses abound... as do dead horse beaters :o)
I guess I will have to scrap my planned thread "Which one of us will be the greatest in the kingdom and why?" :laughing7:
Quote from: eaglesway on November 30, 2015, 09:48:09 PM
Dead Horses abound... as do dead horse beaters :o)
Yeah and we got em alright. :Peace2:
:laughing7:
lol...........
Some excellent council all around :HeartThrob:
I love many things shared here on this tread ... and this forum .
I do believe we are all at different places as God is love pointed out so gracefully
I just want to thank God for the promise of the Holy Spirit , teacher and comforter , to me that is the most awesome a precious gift Jesus Christ Himself set in motion ...
John 16 The Holy Spirit Promised
...12"I have many more things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. 13"But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come. 14"He will glorify Me, for He will take of Mine and will disclose it to you....
Every Word that proceeds out of the mouth of God :dsunny:
Isaiah 11:2
The Spirit of the LORD will rest on him-- the Spirit of wisdom and of understanding, the Spirit of counsel and of might, the Spirit of the knowledge and fear of the LORD--
John 14:17
the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you.
John 14:26
But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you.
Hebrews 1:1
In the past God spoke to our ancestors through the prophets at many times and in various ways,
1 John 5:6
This is the one who came by water and blood--Jesus Christ. He did not come by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit who testifies, because the Spirit is the truth.
:icon_flower:
Quote from: Shev on November 30, 2015, 09:51:03 PM
I guess I will have to scrap my planned thread "Which one of us will be the greatest in the kingdom and why?" :laughing7:
Interesting....would like to read it :dsunny:
Merry Christmas and to all a good night! :dsunny:
My wife and I celebrate Christmas and do the relative gift giving thing as others do. Yes the commercialism of Christmas is way overdone but here are a couple reasons why we celebrate Christmas. Before I knew the Lord my heart or thoughts toward him were more prevalent at those times of the year. It was one particular Christmas that as my heart was softer or drawn by the Lord my wife had a Word of Wisdom given to her concerning me by the Lord. You see each year I'd do the New Years Resolution thing and say I'm going to start going to church each week with the family and be a better father etc. Well that never happened at least not for more than a month or so.
We had just come home from shopping and buying the last few Christmas presents and I was thrilled to have that chore finished. I told my wife "Well that's done we've got everyone's gifts and now we can relax." She said "Well almost everyone! We didn't get anything for Jesus." to which I replied "Well what can you get him? He's got everything." That's when things changed as she said "Well he doesn't have you!" then she said "You know that New Years Resolution you make each year and never keep. Don't tell me or anyone else but just tell Jesus then if you don't keep it nobody will know." I thought about what she said and it got to me pretty good. I went into the bathroom a bit later and told God my usual New Years Promise. Being raised as a Catholic kid and really not a practicing one I thought about going to confession then to midnight mass. It had been so many years since I had done that so I had lots of stuff to unload.
If anyone here doesn't know about the Catholic confessionals the have this booth with 3 doors. The priest is in the booths center door and on each side there is a door folks enter to tell their sins to him that is in the center cubicle there is a kind of semi-see through screen so they can't tell who you are and as you enter you kneel on a little kneeler thing and outside above the doors a little light goes on so you know if the little booth is occupied or not.
This night folks were lined up on each side of the church waiting to go to confession before attending mass. The church had a confessional on each side wall. I entered and the lines that moved kind of briskly on each side. They stopped on my side for quite some time! Yep! I had lots to unload! Remember I still didn't know the Lord but I was doing my best to move in the right direction. After spilling my guts to that priest he had to help me through some kind of prayer of contrition I had memorized as a kid but had forgotten the words. He told me to say a couple quick Our Father's prayers and a Hail Mary or two for my penance. I thought wow that's all for 15 to 20 minutes of stuff. Anyhow I felt better but just 2 days later was SUNDAY. I was supposed to go to church according to my resolution. I usually pretended to be asleep until my wife went to church then I'd get up and be glad I didn't have to go. It was so boring!
This Sunday I thought twice going to church in one week-nope- I'll just pretend to be asleep. My wife called to me right before she left and asked if I was going and I said no. She then proceeded to put the children in the car and as she did I began to shake inside. It was something I did not expect but then
I heard a voice saying "You made a promise to me are you going to keep it?" There were a few other things said but I sprung out of that bed called to my wife who was already backing the car down the driveway and told her to wait I was coming.
That was the start of a journey until I had a real salvation experience. This church had what they called folk masses and lively music at the last Sunday morning mass. Their was a kind of hippie looking priest with an big Afro hairdo and he was a white guy. Whenever he spoke I began to tear up and couldn't explain why. That went on for 4 or 5 weeks and I'd be a mess all week tearing up until about Thursday each week. I thought I was going nuts but thought it strange how I wanted to go back and hear him every week just to start the cycle over again. It was the Holy Ghost convicting me of my need for Jesus but since it was a Catholic church I was considered ok because I was baptized as an infant. I'll just try to cut this long post a bit shorter in case you get bored by my story. During that time I bought a book by George Otis about getting rich and one day decided to read the chapter 4 in the book. It was about Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny. I decided to read that chapter since all the other chapters convicted me about my lifestyle too much. While reading that chapter God gave me a vision of the crucifixion and I saw Jesus so messed up and at the same time I saw thousands of still photos of things I had done contrary to love but justified by myself. I knew he had been crucified because of those things at least that is what I perceived at that time. I also saw something else. I saw His Eyes looking right down upon me. It was like two golden spotlights full of a love I had never experienced before. I knew despite all those things I saw in the photos he loved me and forgave me. I broke right then and there and wept like a big baby. The king size bed I was laying on as I read that book seemed to almost bounce up and down as I wept. I left that room a changed man.
My wife and I heard all the stuff about Christmas and Easter celebrations coming from pagan traditions and almost decided to quit celebrating those holidays.
You know those are TWO DAYS in the whole year folks get reminded of Jesus and just like myself seem to have a softer heart. We celebrate because of what he has done but also knowing these are two days that God uses to draw folks that never grace a church door except for weddings and or funerals. I personally think God can use anything to draw or touch men regardless of some previous pagan beliefs. He works with us not because of Santa or the Christmas Tree but simply because he wants our hearts.
That's the story of how my walk began and as we celebrate with presents and good family times we believe it helps to keep Jesus in their thoughts even if just a little bit more than would be the case. It also keeps us from being estranged from family we desire to see come to him. Our opportunities to share what we believe are easier if they see us as one of them. :HeartThrob:
:thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:
Quote from: micah7:9 on November 30, 2015, 10:05:50 PM
Merry Christmas and to all a good night! :dsunny:
From the crew of Apollo 8 ? :gimmefive:
I personally do not see Christmas as a day to celebrate the Birth of Christ, and I think that His birth, life, and resurrection are all utmost important, and do not need one day. But I don't condemn anyone else. Nor do I condemn Orthodox and Catholics for having different dates of Easter. :declare:
Merry Christmas and to all a good night! :dsunny:
Agree about the dead horses and all...
I also agree with EW's various posts and other people's as well.
I do love a respectful disagreement, and have read and participated in some on this forum and have felt they were always surprisingly civil and even opposing views were shared with humility and love.
For a moment on this thread I perceived the humility and love to be lacking and a "I'm right you're wrong" mentality creeping in, which is why I responded the way I did.
I do love hearing why someone believes or acts or thinks a certain way, even a way different from my own. More than once on this forum it has caused me to stop and think and even reevaluate my thoughts.
It's interesting that we all feel led by the Spirit even if the Spirit is leading us differently. I like the analogy that God is parenting us all differently based what we need as individuals at this moment in time. The end result will be the same but we are taking differently paths with Christ as our guide.
I used to accuse my mom of loving my brother more and he used to accuse her of the opposite. She always said "I love you equally but differently based on what each of you need" ...now with my own two I understand her statement completely. Sorry if that seemed irrelevant, it seems fitting for me.
Unshakeable truths for me are believing in Jesus, loving God, and loving our neighbors. The details like this thread are up for differing opinions...but I prefer a "this works for me" when sharing...
I used to believe everything I knew was right and it was my duty to share (jam down their throat) my views. It caused discord with no other good fruit. Then over time God would show me that I was actually wrong anyway! So good thing I didn't convince anyone. Then my eyes would be pried open a tad more and again and again.
So now I try to practice humility. No one has it all right.
Quote from: He1MyHeart on November 30, 2015, 10:28:06 PM
My wife and I heard all the stuff about Christmas and Easter celebrations coming from pagan traditions and almost decided to quit celebrating those holidays.
You know those are TWO DAYS in the whole year folks get reminded of Jesus and just like myself seem to have a softer heart. We celebrate because of what he has done but also knowing these are two days that God uses to draw folks that never grace a church door except for weddings and or funerals. I personally think God can use anything to draw or touch men regardless of some previous pagan beliefs. He works with us not because of Santa or the Christmas Tree but simply because he wants our hearts. :HeartThrob:
After reading that it reminded me that i had an experience that made me a Christian last Christmas eve. I had kind of forgot about it until now and i think the timing of it did lead me to Jesus easier than it would have if it had happened in July.
It's been interesting reading everyone's thoughts on it i like seeing things from others point of view.
QuoteUnshakeable truths for me are believing in Jesus, loving God, and loving our neighbors. The details like this thread are up for differing opinions...but I prefer a "this works for me" when sharing...
I used to believe everything I knew was right and it was my duty to share (jam down their throat) my views. It caused discord with no other good fruit. Then over time God would show me that I was actually wrong anyway! So good thing I didn't convince anyone. Then my eyes would be pried open a tad more and again and again.
So now I try to practice humility. No one has it all right.
Amen :dsunny:
Sharing something I learned also , is not choosing the left or ''right ''
left in the dust or being ''right ''
I believe the middle ground has the perfect balance , blessed is the peacemakers they shall be called the children of God :HeartThrob:
For me the peace is when you do not choose sides , but balance between the two , Just as Jesus is the Lord /Master of the dead and the living
the ''on fire for God '' or the ''waxed cold'' because the iniquity abounds , than does Gods grace abound the more ...
I am not so proud as to say I have lots to learn , learning from the Holy Spirit of Truth and my brothers and sisters in the Body of Christ , eating His body and drinking His blood does give Life in the Spirit and discerning the Lords Body allows room for Spiritual growth '' in truth and grace ''
Two things I believe we can never ''outgrow '' but in constant need of continually ..
The Christ child grew .. as anointed by God the FATHER ..
Luke 2 :40
39When they had performed everything according to the Law of the Lord, they returned to Galilee, to their own city of Nazareth.
40T
he Child continued to grow and become strong, increasing in wisdom; and the grace of God was upon Him.1 Samuel 2:21
And
the LORD was gracious to Hannah; she gave birth to three sons and two daughters. Meanwhile,
the boy Samuel grew up in the presence of the LORD.
Luke 1:80 John the baptist .. purposed and prepared ..
And
the child grew and became strong in spirit; and he lived in the wilderness until he appeared publicly to Israel.
Luke 2:52
And
Jesus grew in wisdom and stature, and in favor with God and man. Jesus Christ working in the above , Holy pure Wisdom , glorious power of God and below , lowly beggarly elements of human understanding to be JOINED together as ONE
ONE SPIRIT ONE FAITH
Eph 4 Unity in the Body
...
4There is one body and one Spirit, just as also you were called in one hope of your calling; 5one Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6one God and Father of all who is over all and through all and in all.... What an awesome ''gift '' to always be aware of and considering in ''Loving thoughts and actions '' :HeartThrob: everyone and everything is blessed beyond measure ...
I call such things 'pearls of wisdom in a nut shell" though the prince of this world may have meant it for evil.[with merchandising and
materialism etc and to accuse before God the practices of His people]..God meant it for good..
for this reason we are to 'judge not,lest ye be judged"
Sometimes I wonder that the glories of the victorious gospel dont consume our conversations as well as our thoughts instaed of all the peripheral stuff. maybe I will make that a topic. :o)
Quote from: eaglesway on December 02, 2015, 02:20:39 AM
Sometimes I wonder that the glories of the victorious gospel dont consume our conversations as well as our thoughts instaed of all the peripheral stuff. maybe I will make that a topic. :o)
:thumbsup:
Indeed about the glory thing.
Glad He is changing us from glory to glory.
I like the illustration of Moses coming down from his consultation with such glory that the people could not even look at him.
We will be like Christ when we see Him as He truly is in the next life.
The portrayal of our body being like His glorious body is mind blowing.
Yes, absolutley Ross. The Glory Thing :o) is AWESOME!....IN EVERY RESPECT. tHE WORD ITSELF DESCRIBES EVERYTHING gOD IS DOING.
MANY SONS UNTO GLORY....
hOW LIGHT OUR SUFFERINGS ARE COMPARED TO THE gLORY THAT IS TO BE REVEALED IN US...
OOPS, SORRY ABOUT THE CAPS LOCK LOL
I dont want to retype it.
The earth will be filled with the glory of the Lord and the glory of the Lord will flow from mt zion
That we who were first to believe would be to the praise of His glory.....
BUT NOT THE LAST!!!!!... <<<those caps were on purpose :o)
:cloud9: AMEN :thumbsup: :banana: :dsunny:
" OOPS, SORRY ABOUT THE CAPS LOCK LOL"
No problemo ; I.M.O emphasizes the points made nicely.
" The earth will be filled with the glory of the Lord and the glory of the Lord will flow from Mt Zion."
Amen!! More glory than the sun puts out in this age.
I just find the question and the answers unbelievable knowing what is known. :2c:
Quote from: micah7:9 on December 04, 2015, 03:34:57 AM
I just find the question and the answers unbelievable knowing what is known. :2c:
Where there is Love , there is Life , it has always been a matter of heart :HeartThrob:
GOD judges the heart , 7But the LORD said to Samuel, "Do not look at his appearance or at the height of his stature, because I have rejected him; for God sees not as man sees, for man looks at the outward appearance,
but the LORD looks at the heart. that being said , we must remember the LAW is written in their hearts ,,,,, that is to love God first and your neighbour as yourself , all the law is hung on these two laws and covers a multitude of sin/error
LOVE or the lack there of test us every last one of us in that place where we are at continually ... , to forgive and pray for enemies of the Cross of Christ ,,,
Many might think where is God in all this madness and worldly chaos and foolishness ?
He patiently waits for those whom have been here out in the world ''little prodicals learning '' My Fathers house is the only SAFE place to be truly LOVED and cherished and cared for and many of those returned are waiting on us all too !!
James 4 Drawing Near to God
...10 Humble yourselves in the presence of the Lord, and He will exalt you. 11Do not speak against one another, brethren. He who speaks against a brother or judges his brother, speaks against the law and judges the law; but if you judge the law, you are not a doer of the law but a judge of it. 12There is only one
Lawgiver and Judge, the One who is able to save and to destroy; but who are you who judge your neighbor?
LAW OF LOVE , where lOVE is LIFE is abundant , GOD IS LOVE .... There is no other source ... IT COMES FROM FATHER , Jesus was sent to prove that to us now .... PROVE , no doubts ...prove
[pro͞ov]
VERB
demonstrate the truth or existence of (something) by evidence or argument:
"the concept is difficult to prove" · [more]
synonyms:
show (to be true) · demonstrate (the truth of) · [more]
(of bread dough) become aerated by the action of yeast; rise. Christ is risen !!! GLORY !!!! :HeartThrob:
:cloud9: The way I see it, we give out the truth as we currently know it, in ANY category, and then leave it up to the Spirit to convict them or not. The Spirit began to convict me over keeping the Kosher laws. It wasn't a choice on my part, nor a desire. It's the same with everything.
The thing to remember is, it may not be their season to receive a particular truth, and if not, then the Spirit will not convict, and without conviction, for THEM, it would be a work of the fleshly will to do it, and in that sense a sin, even though it's truth. It's eating of the GOOD part of the tree. This is why we can do what's "right" and still sin, but most never see this. BUT as many as are LED BY THE SPIRIT, they are the sons of God.
How is this possible? Example. What if when Paul turned the man over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, and someone disagreed with that decision of the Spirit, and brought him back into where he was. It LOOKED like a "good" thing, but it was against the Spirit's will, and so was sin.
Same way with what Peter said to Jesus, be it far from you Lord, and Jesus rebuked Satan. It LOOKED like compassion and desiring that He not suffer, but it was not. There is such a thing as false compassion spirit; EVERYTHING the Lord has, Satan counterfeits.
So this is why we can't judge someone who celebrates this still. If the Spirit does not convict them at this time, how can we hold them accountable and judge them? It would be judging God's timing and works.
I went through something with a friend once. It LOOKED like outright sin she was doing and I was battling her over it, but she kept insisting the Lord was making her walk it out. I finally went to Him with it, and told Him I didn't want to come against His hand in any way, but that I likely was going to if He didn't tell ME what and why He was going this with her. He did, and I shut my mouth and kept it shut. Blessings....
Christmas is a real mixed bag for a lot of people. What is is. How it is perceived by different people. Even what spirit it is celebrated in. I find it to be a poor battleground.
The commercialization of Christmas is no different(imo) than the commercialization of church. Not everyone in the church is there for the wrong reason, even tho they may not be aware of what is wrong about what is taught in that particular church.
Paul said if one man wants to regard one day above another let him do so as unto the Lord. If another regards all days the same, let him do so as unto the Lord and not judge those who are weak in their faith.
If God was so upset about the rebellion of the Jews that He said their feast days had become a stench in His nostrils that didnt mean He wanted them to stop celebrating them- it meant He wanted them to live right, so the offense to Him was not the day- it was in their hearts, and the issues(Isaiah 58) were about how they treated one another.
Wisdom and humility are higher than knowledge. Love edifies, knowledge puffs up.
That is all truth.
Paul became all things to all people. he had Timothy get circumsized even tho he adamantly rebuked those who were trying to bring the law and the holy days into force over Gentile believers.
Why?
Because in that moment he was trying to accomplish a higher purpose. So he(I am sure) asked Timothy if he was willing to be circumsized in order to continue in the work.
He was becoming all things to all people so that by any means he might save some.
There is a limit to that, of course. That limit is found in the heart of each person according to what God is doing in their world among those with whom they live and are a witness.
What we think we know for us may be absolutely true. What we do with that in regards to others must be guided by wisdom and humility.
To me, all days are the same. Every day is Today, the Day of the Lord. but I can celebrate with my family on Christmas and would consider myself a brute if I were to try to educate them with my knowledge on that day, or even in that season as they do what they do for their varyig reasons.
:dsunny:
:goodpost: John ,
LOVE it .
:HeartThrob:
Yes, yes, yes. :thumbsup: eaglesway.
:thumbsup:
Amen and very well said and is what I would think to be an attitude of a peacemaker.
I am so happy that I do not feel an urgency to convert people to faith in Jesus.. perhaps becoming obnoxious seeming to those I would most want to reach. It's a good freedom I believe to be content to merely plant seeds when the space and opportunity is granted. (And to pray!)
ET is a mixed bag for those believing it. Some who care the most may try hardest to convert folks.. Perhaps making holidays and gatherings trying for their family or friends. Yet if they do believe ET but do not try to convert, it may seem they lack love and concern for those not (yet) saved. I feel sympathy for any sincerely believing ET or even AT.. And I love what God's word says about days and meats. Even in the kingdom, I hope we will not all be clones or exact duplicates of one another! :o
Not usually this long winded, but the subject troubles me and it comes around every year about this time.
Founded on Truth or settle for tradition?
Hell...is Hades= the unseen..grave or pit....not a place of eternal torment.
Hell....Sheol= the grave or pit..where the dead go...not a place of eternal torment.
Going to "hell" a place of eternal torment, is a religious tradition, debunked by truth. In the Pentecostal churches "hell" is a word painting by loud preachers of human beings being tortured is searing flames of fire for eternity with articulate words. This has been heard on radio, seen in tent revivals and TV "evangelists" then and today. A preaching of fear that had NO Bible basis, but people embraced that doctrine of fear, and those who believed they weren't going there were almost gleeful many were.
Religious tradition.
I was still teaching "hell" as eternal torment in Pentecostal churches, when I was given to realize a truth... that the wages of sin was death...not a wage of eternal torment. 1 Tim. 2:3-4, Jo. 12:32, 1 Tim. 4:10, 2 Pet. 3:9 and many more verses that teach 1Jn 4:14 And we have beheld and bear witness that the Father hath sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world.
It would seem that today men would rather follow a denomination rather than truth. Remember that all of us came out of a denomination, and some of us have held to a degree of than denomination's teachings and continue to build on that teaching rather than more truth.
Christmas..."Christ ...mas"...... "annointed mass?" where is such a thing testified to in the Word of God?
It was back then, about 1985 that I also was given a truth, that christmas was just as traditional as the Christian teaching as hell! I was raised on the belief that Dec. 25th was the day Christ was born and it was a time at the end of the year for decorated trees, lights, the yearlong await for more presents than usual, frosty the snowman, reindeer that pulled a sled filled with toys driven by a jolly old guy dressed in red flying through the air...and oh yeah the birth of Christ..lest one forget.
Maybe someone could search like one brother is doing for "hell" as a place of eternal torment in the Bible, and show scripture and verse where "hell" is? But it ain't as he is posting. My point is, those who seek and dig to find truths in the Bible, who have left behind the traditional teaching of a "hell," continue to keep, embrace and stand for, and seem to believe in or at least give umbrage to a religious tradition that has no viable proof with scripture or verse that such a celebration exists or was instructed. Religious tradition.... most have found as we search is not true, men's traditions are not found in the Bible.
There is no place in the Bible that I have found of such a thing as a "Christmas" which means "anointed mass" No where can I find instructions for a celebration for the birth of Jesus Christ or a given month that denotes His birth a celebration, let alone with trees decorated with lights, and trading of gifts.... could this day Dec. 25 be a tradition of men? Could this be a day of celebration by men, a creation to make man feel good? Man and religion picked a month and day... and tradition set in... to make man feel good, so man felt like he was pleasing the Lord. Is it not just as untruthful as the teaching of a.... hell doctrine?
My desire is to do good and show the Love of the Saviour, to give with nothing in return, every day I am given breath should I be able.
I just find an "anointed mass" unexceptable. There is no "christ" in a "christmas" no matter how good it makes YOU feel. People teach and preach a hell of eternal fire as punishment for sin....is it true to the Word of God...No. Yet people who believe there is no hell in the Bible and seek His truth, embrace a tradition created by men, for the one purpose of making people "feel" good at a certain time of the year. Yeah I/we have celebrated Dec. 25th all our lives and people before us and people before them and people before them, cause it was a happy time, we got gifts, we gave gifts, we put up a tree with beautiful lights and we said that Jesus was the reason for the season, keep "Christ" in christmas [anointed mass]. We get upset because some people want to say "happy holidays" and not "merry Christmas," when it is just that, a happy holiday for the carnal man.
Paul said through the Holy Spirit... 2Co 6:17-8 Wherefore, Come out of their midst and be severed, the Lord is saying. And touch not the unclean, and I will admit you, and I will be a Father to you, and you shall be sons and daughters to Me, says the Lord Almighty."
Jer 10:2-4 thus saith Jehovah, Learn not the way of the nations, and be not dismayed at the signs of heaven; for the nations are dismayed at them. For the customs of the peoples are vanity; for one cutteth a tree out of the forest, the work of the hands of the workman with the axe. They deck it with silver and with gold; they fasten it with nails and with hammers, that it move not.
Exo 32:1 And when the people saw that [u ]Moses delayed to come down[/u] from the mount, the people gathered themselves together unto Aaron, and said unto him, Up, make us gods, which shall go before us; for as for this Moses, the man that brought us up out of the land of Egypt, we know not what is become of him.
2Ki 14:3 And he did that which was right in the sight of the LORD, yet not like David his father: he did according to all things as Joash his father did. 2Ki 14:4 Howbeit the high places were not taken away: as yet the people did sacrifice and burnt incense on the high places.
2Ki 18:3 And he did that which was right in the sight of the LORD, according to all that David his father did. 2Ki 18:4 He removed the high places, and brake the images, and cut down the groves, .....
Jesus Christ was born, Luk 2:10 And the angel said unto them, Be not afraid; for behold, I bring you good tidings of great joy which shall be to all the people: for there is born to you this day in the city of David a Saviour, who is Christ the Lord.
Luk 1:32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:
Mat 1:23 Behold, the virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, And they shall call his name Immanuel; which is, being interpreted, God with us.
Is that not enough to rest in, Immanuel; which is, being interpreted, God with us.
:dsunny: :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob:
Hey, Micah,
Well written. I agree 100%
:banana:
Quote from: joeteekay on December 05, 2015, 06:03:21 AM
Hey, Micah,
Well written. I agree 100%
:banana:
Thank you my friend! :dsunny:
mass=to gather in a lump......is it not God's perogative to make a vessel of honour of the same lump?
I was in a very legalistic religion....and they imposed their own conscience on the people in this matter.mostly so they could
point that finger at the other churches and accuse..and boast in their flesh[ see they do thus and thus,but we don't!]
there's a difference in the servant class 'giving those of the household food at the proper time' and those who begin beating
those of the household. why should any of the household be beat due to another's conscience? is that love?
does the tradition 'set at naught" the word of God?
they did the same with Mother's day and Father's day...a traditional day to honour your father and mother[see corban that nullify's
the word of God to honour your father and mother]
Jesus turned the water into wine..when it was not His time..as to not dishonour His mother....
if you want to judge your family's practice of getting togather on that holiday as 'unclean/evil" and say get far away from me
I am too pure for you...while you eat pork..God gives His opinion on that too. if you are righteous by keeping the letter of the law
then keep it all!!! or do we forget...Jesus ate and drank with sinner's?
who is really nullifying the 'word of God' when Jesus said 'judge not lest ye be judged?" and Paul said 'all things are lawful..but
not all things are expiedient" evidently God loves and is going to save by His grace all these Christmas celebrater's...
the purpose of the law[to lead to Christ] was to show you that no-one is made perfect under the law of written ordinances.
and lead you to the grace that is of God through His son Jesus Christ. every GOOD GIFT[Christ] that God gives is spoiled by
a little evil by the kingdom of darkness. Some make judge that the darkness and evil is in those that celebrate Christmas/by their
knowledge of good and evil;and completely miss the own darkness in their heart to disobey and judge as such. Thus the principle
of 'judge not lest ye be judged" for I came,not to destroy the world..but to save it. Ye must be perfect like the Father..freely
forgiving those who trespass against you. So,if Father does in fact see Christmas as a trespass against himself and His Son..
do you not think He freely forgives? Has He not chosen mercy/grace over judgement for His whole creation.
a little knowledge is dangerous,a little evil spoils much good.
regarding the jezebel spirit that.. teaches my people to eat food offered unto idols...do you not know that an idol is nothing other
then thinking/believing that ye shall be saved/delivered by the work of your own hands? be careful how you build and with what material
the works of your hands[flesh] will be burnt up...and you will suffer loss. the foundation stone is GRACE! Seven eyes/spirits on that
foundation stone.
after beginning in the spirit shall we then be perfected in the flesh? Gal 3;3 no flesh will be declared righteous..even those who don't
celebrate Christmas.
we must refrain from placing stripes on the back of your household of faith members!!! lest we be appointed to hypocrisy...........
for the three things that remain are faith hope and love......knowledge puffs up..love builds up
you don't boil a kid in it's mother's milk. Babes in Christ identify with the Christchild/babe in the manger. YOU DO NOT KILL THAT CHILD
AND BOIL IT IN IT'S MOTHER"S MILK... Milk/that which is to nurture the child"s.[faith]..... apply that spiritually.
and speaking of idols in houses...I hope none of us have any images of anything in heaven or on earth hanging on our walls. no
crosses nor last supper pictures,photos,household knick-knacks etc[amish keep this].
apply that spiritually as your body being the temple and evil spirits on the wall of your mind[not all are clean]
like a man that fled a lion and bear and come into his house and a serpent on the wall bit him. the accusor of the brethern in
your mind is that serpent.are you devouring one another like unclean beasts?...apply that spiritually
no blended clothing please...apply that spiritually....law and grace..filthy garments of self-righteousness vs free gift/grace/covered by
Christ's blood. are we walking around in blended garments?
....am I out of my mind?
Quoteif you are righteous by keeping the letter of the law
then keep it all!!!
Yup.
Quote....am I out of my mind?
Nope.
This whole question of whether Christmas is in the Bible is an interesting one.
There are lots of things that are not in the Bible that are permissible. The New Testament was not written to give us an exhaustive list for what is permissible and what is not. That's the old way. That's the way Jesus freed us from. He freed us to be given a spirit of a conscience. If we have to live our lives by an exhaustive list of what we may do and not do according to what is written, then we will never grow.
That's why the New Testament takes the whole law and reduces it to one word: Love your neighbor. It's easier to live our lives according to a list of "do this" and "don't do that" because we can get rid of the gray area that way. We feel we can simplify, feel that we can be clean according to the things which are easy to control. But loving a neighbor can be an internal wrestling match. What does it mean to love our neighbor? It's instinct. Faith has to do with our intention. Why did Paul have Timothy circumcised? Because he thought it would make Thomas more righteous, or because he wanted to gain entrance to the synagogue and preach Jesus? That matters; the why matters. Why do people celebrate Christmas? To make them more righteous? Or to have fun with family and friends? It matters, the why.
It doesn't matter if Christmas is in the Bible or not any more than it matters if Super Bowl Sunday is in the Bible or not. It only matters if people FORCE others, or pressure them to do it. I am trying to live a life according to the actual commandments laid out in the New Testament: believe in Jesus and love thy neighbor. I am not subject to the extra rules placed on me by Christians who'd like add to those commandments in the name of purity. And that is what makes me free.
now Peter found himself in the midst of a dilema..when he had freely ate with the uncircumcized....and the circumcized believers
come on the scene.[I have been on both sides of this dilema regarding Christmas]...Paul said..'if you being a jew are unable to
............why do you....compel these?.." I choose to freely break bread..with both.Surely the Lord is the mediator of both!!!!
When we look at the pattern of the new church in the New Testament it was filled with accounts of people coming into the congregation and saying to freed people "you must do this, you must do that." Must be circumcised. Must follow these rules. The only restriction Paul placed on Christians was when their rights and privileges as free people conflicted with the commandment to love your neighbor. That's when it's not OK to eat meat sacrificed to idols. ONLY WHEN IT CONFLICTS with "love thy neighbor" and otherwise that it is permissible. That's the pattern I follow in regard to Christmas. You can tell me the Bible doesn't tell us to celebrate Christmas. To which I will tell you, the Bible doesn't forbid it either.
Mostly, I would want to have a strict Sabbath every Friday evening to Saturday evening(slightly different topic, yet the same?)
But in order to do that would be to inconvenience my husband. Which I am not willing to do. I also would love to be a vegetarian but that would cost us two grocery budgets and I am not the bread winner.
I think of Christmas as family time. I don't see family enough and I would hate to give up any of it i have. But I don't think I think about or love the Lord any more or less than on any other day..
Sheila, I loved your responses. :thumbsup: :thumbsup: They covered the whole range of law vs grace so very well.. "mix law with grace and you are fallen from grace" and I think that's because it robs grace of its power (to work and transform).
Not to say we can't follow our conscience in some matters - concerning things like foods and days. If I decide I can no longer eat defenseless animals raised in captivity to be killed, that's I'm sure quite all right. If someone asks me, I can share with them my personal conviction. But I believe that's as far as I should go. "Let each one be fully persuaded in their own mind".. not weakening a brother or sister's conscience or freedom of conscience on such..
...I gave up worrying about what someone else does or doesn't do a long time ago. Maybe the Lord prefers I not eat whatever, and another to not join in on holidays confiscated by christendom from pagan observance.. But I think we do it for our self, to think we do it for Him, I think, is a dangerous thing.. for all our righteousness is as "filthy rags"..
..I actually enjoy this topic. I think it's an important one which many struggle with. I'm into freedom! For myself and for others. It's the Spirit of the Lord which changed and changes us and keeps us on His good moral path. Liberty, of course, not license. Smile! I can't hit 'smile' on this little iPhone! :)
:cloud9: An interesting dilemma is now facing me. This is NOT pointed at anyone on this board, it's an ongoing situation off the board. The SPIRIT told me (and my daughter, BEFORE me) not to eat pork anymore). Yet if I tell someone, it seems they automatically start the discussion on being under grace and not law. So tell me: if the Spirit tells you, doesn't that make it fall under grace, since as many as are led of the Spirit are the sons of God, regardless of what part of scripture it's fulfilling? Anybody see my point? Blessings....
Bex,if the spirit tells you,obey..you are associating with Messianic jews........the spirit once told me to throw a handfull of flour in a pot.
and the evil spirits would dissipate...it's not the flour..it's not the pig.it's doing what the Holy spirit says at that moment.
Quote from: sheila on December 06, 2015, 02:36:33 AM
.it's not the flour..it's not the pig.it's doing what the Holy spirit says at that moment.
m
Yes! I think there could be a reason the HS is convicting someone of something in that period of time in their life but the mistake would be for that person to then tell everyone around them they have to do the same.
This topic initially bothered me but it's now fascinating me to see these responses, Sheila and Marie and everyone else.
Quote from: Cardinal on December 06, 2015, 01:44:59 AM
:cloud9: An interesting dilemma is now facing me. This is NOT pointed at anyone on this board, it's an ongoing situation off the board. The SPIRIT told me (and my daughter, BEFORE me) not to eat pork anymore). Yet if I tell someone, it seems they automatically start the discussion on being under grace and not law. So tell me: if the Spirit tells you, doesn't that make it fall under grace, since as many as are led of the Spirit are the sons of God, regardless of what part of scripture it's fulfilling? Anybody see my point? Blessings....
To me, it doesn't even have to be a dilemma. As long as you are doing what you feel led to do, it shouldn't be a problem for them; as long as you aren't putting it on them to join your restriction. It's really none of their business.
Quote from: GodIsLove on December 06, 2015, 02:44:01 AM
Quote from: sheila on December 06, 2015, 02:36:33 AM
.it's not the flour..it's not the pig.it's doing what the Holy spirit says at that moment.
m
Yes! I think there could be a reason the HS is convicting someone of something in that period of time in their life but the mistake would be for that person to then tell everyone around them they have to do the same.
This topic initially bothered me but it's now fascinating me to see these responses, Sheila and Marie and everyone else.
I as well GodIslove , Hear the many ways to consider and think about , except just one way ..
That I believe is beneficial , considering one another ..
I learned a lot also and value , the Judas thread , so many more ways and things to consider , than just one way that , '' being mine own opinion''
Truly the Body of Christ is a many membered
Romans 12
Living Sacrifices
...4For just as we have
many members in one body and
all the members do not have the same function, 5so we, who are many,
are one body in Christ, and individually members one of another. 6Since we have gifts that differ according to the grace given to us, each of us is to exercise them accordingly:
if prophecy, according to the proportion of his faith;...
Quote from: Seth on December 06, 2015, 02:51:16 AM
Quote from: Cardinal on December 06, 2015, 01:44:59 AM
:cloud9: An interesting dilemma is now facing me. This is NOT pointed at anyone on this board, it's an ongoing situation off the board. The SPIRIT told me (and my daughter, BEFORE me) not to eat pork anymore). Yet if I tell someone, it seems they automatically start the discussion on being under grace and not law. So tell me: if the Spirit tells you, doesn't that make it fall under grace, since as many as are led of the Spirit are the sons of God, regardless of what part of scripture it's fulfilling? Anybody see my point? Blessings....
To me, it doesn't even have to be a dilemma. As long as you are doing what you feel led to do, it shouldn't be a problem for them; as long as you aren't putting it on them to join your restriction. It's really none of their business.
I agree with sheila, including who you're currently associating with ("all things to all men" - respect) and what seth says here. if you're sure it's the Holy Spirit, then there's a good reason, even if only for a season/specific purpose. blessings.
This is a great discussion, with some really interesting perspectives on all sides!
I have kind of a left-field question for those who do celebrate Xmas. I guess this is a follow up to the "all things are permissible" theme. In your view, does this therefore logically extend to other days and seasons such as Halloween, Ramadan, Karva Chauth, Litha (the Summer Solstice) and Day of the Dead?
Sorry if this is a strange question. I am just wondering if anyone has a line drawn somewhere, or if these are all basically in the same category in your mind as Xmas, as the pagan (or religious) aspects of these holidays do not matter, as they can all be redeemed for Christ like Xmas as long as one is thinking about Him as one celebrates? I would assume the consensus answer would still be about being convinced in one's mind, but I would be interested to hear from anyone on it.
This is not meant to offend anyone, or be sarcastic, just add a new layer to that aspect of the discussion.
Well, really I do not see where Christ is involved at all in Ramadan, or Halloween. I would put Christmas more in the category of Thanksgiving... a quasi religious/cultural holiday. Where I live some of the Jewish holidays have also gone pretty far afield from their original intent, yet, the actuall issue is in the heart of those who are celebrating it.
The question is(imo) whether or not the nature of the celebration is so offensive to the Spirit of Christ that Christians should not celbrate it at all. With some of these Jewish and Christian holidays/holy days it can go either way according to the heart intent.
Ramadan, of course is a holy day no Christian would observe, and I really always felt that about Halloween too. Litha is a purely pagan holiday so the answer, for a Christian should be obvious.
While it is clear to me that Christmas is viewd by some as a purely pagan holiday, that is not so obvious and therefore a little more difficult to sort out.
Some could even go so far with the Jewish holy days if they wanted to try- but Paul would resist them in that, I think, if he were here. :o)
:cloud9: Thanks for all the replies. He actually said it to both of us BEFORE we were associating with the Messianics. Could have been to prepare us?
And @ Shev.....you've brought up an interesting point. I have a feeling it might be offensive for some to watch someone celebrate what we Christians would consider a truly pagan holiday. I know for me it would be hard not to say something, if I knew them at all. I'd have to try to plant some kind of seed, that's just my nature. Unless of course, He restrained me. He's done that before, too.
I think the goal for Him is for us to not be offended at ANYTHING, and then He can deal with it in whatever fashion HE chooses, and in so doing, there would be no error on our part. My :2c: Blessings...
Karva Chauth looks harmless enough(just looked it up).....but it is a Hindu holiday celbrated by Hindu women primarily in India from what I read.
I wouldnt think it would apply to Christians at all.
I'd take Ramadan as an example. It's all about intention. Do I wish to honor another god by observing it,? That would be bad. Or what if I was invited to an iftar meal (eating after sundown) and I participated in it? It's a matter of intention. I would not want to lead anyone on by pretending that I am honoring another God, but neither do I need to feel guilty for participating in a meal that someone else has invited me to. The food isn't going to poison me with any spiritual cooties, and neither is the company. It's what proceeds from the heart that would defile me, such as the intention to worship another God. So, to me, again, it's all about intention.
:iagree:
Now concerning things sacrificed to idols, we know that we all have knowledge. Knowledge makes arrogant, but love edifies. If anyone supposes that he knows anything, he has not yet known as he ought to know; but if anyone loves God, he is known by Him.
Therefore concerning the eating of things sacrificed to idols, we know that there is no such thing as an idol in the world, and that there is no God but one. 5For even if there are so-called gods whether in heaven or on earth, as indeed there are many gods and many lords, yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom are all things and we exist for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him.
However not all men have this knowledge; but some, being accustomed to the idol until now, eat food as if it were sacrificed to an idol; and their conscience being weak is defiled. But food will not commend us to God; we are neither the worse if we do not eat, nor the better if we do eat. But take care that this liberty of yours does not somehow become a stumbling block to the weak. For if someone sees you, who have knowledge, dining in an idol's temple, will not his conscience, if he is weak, be strengthened to eat things sacrificed to idols? For through your knowledge he who is weak is ruined, the brother for whose sake Christ died. And so, by sinning against the brethren and wounding their conscience when it is weak, you sin against Christ. Therefore, if food causes my brother to stumble, I will never eat meat again, so that I will not cause my brother to stumble. 1 Cor 8 entire chapt.
Paul basicly covers this topic in 1 Co 8 and he doesnt really make it simple. There is no black and white answer here, but the context fits the thread well I think.
Like you said Seth, If I was invited over to eat at someones house during their holy day, I could eat, but not as unto their god, fellowship but not as in their faith. I would also have to be aware of what a weaker believer would think. I would have to conduct myself in such a way that the people I was with would see my love, but NOT as agreement in whatever spirit or religion they are of.
Requires wisdom folks! Sorry- no pat answers. :laugh:
Very good work. :dsunny:
this topic defintely needed discussed..so glad all these different aspects were brought up.
want to share a coping mechanism I have to get around Halloween with my gran-kids. Harvest festival...the mennonites have
a harvest festival..with fun things...corn maze..pumpkin patch,hayrides caramel apples etc.. also, seasonal decorating......a display of
bales of hay, mums..pumpkins/squash and shocks of corn. decorate inside with colored leaves center-pieces/mini-gourds/pumpkins etc
winter......candles..everygreen boughs with pinecones snowmen and winter- themed etc. sleds/ice-skates......
a time and season for every purpose under heaven.........
I love it so many beautiful things expressed !! Excellent points , surly God has blessed us all immensely :HeartThrob:
I think of the Cross of Jesus Christ , and His dying , soul unto death , not for anything , but us in mind !!!
And His prayer
"Father, if you are willing, take this cup from me; yet not my will, but yours be done."
and I believe being in that same ONE Body of Christ , we also are bearing up the Cross of Christ being and interceding on the behalf the living and the dead , forgiving and Loving despite the circumstances that does put one to death.
Yes becoming all things to all men , for the gospels sake , you might save some ... where there is Love there is Life :dsunny:
Gods will be done on earth as it is in heaven
1Cor 9 Paul a Servant to All
...21to those who are without law, as without law, though not being without the law of God but under the law of Christ,
so that I might win those who are without law.
22To the weak I became weak, that I might win the weak;
I have become all things to all men, so that I may by all means save some.
23I do all things for the sake of the gospel, so that I may become a fellow partaker of it.
the Law written in our hearts is to LOVE GOD FIRST and our neighbour as ourselves , some do not have this Law written in their hearts yet , Jesus Christ is the express Love of God written in our hearts .. :HeartThrob:
:cloud9: @ Sheila....Yeah, that's what I do. I despise Halloween because it sucks kids into dark things at such an early age, and the blinded parents go along with it, sometimes surpassing their kids enjoyment of it. But if you offer an alternative that is just as appealing, kids will take it. Part of their training to learn to choose the good.
When my daughter was young, the Halloween festivities always seemed to include some Ouija boards during sleepovers, because after all, fear and the death, is what it exalts. By the grace of God, she knew and believed what I told her about such, and she refused to participate and told the other girls why. Blessings....
Quote from: Cardinal on December 06, 2015, 06:43:59 PM
:cloud9: @ Sheila....Yeah, that's what I do. I despise Halloween because it sucks kids into dark things at such an early age, and the blinded parents go along with it, sometimes surpassing their kids enjoyment of it. But if you offer an alternative that is just as appealing, kids will take it. Part of their training to learn to choose the good.
When my daughter was young, the Halloween festivities always seemed to include some Ouija boards during sleepovers, because after all, fear and death, is what it exalts. By the grace of God, she knew and believed what I told her about such, and she refused to participate and told the other girls why. Blessings....
Very interesting answers, everyone. Thank you for not taking offense at the question too! :dsunny:
Quote from: Shev on December 06, 2015, 07:47:12 PM
Very interesting answers, everyone. Thank you for not taking offense at the question too! :dsunny:
Ha :laughing7: That was so cute ! The older I get Shev , the more I realize I don't know nothing!!!
The thrill of Christmas as a child was always treasured memories for my family ..
Who knew that one day , it would not hold that same luster ?
But because of my own convictions should I rob my grandson of the same treasure ?
I know that my parents and grandparents and loved ones loved us , what better time than to make a good day of it ?
I miss the old pillars where the whole family gathered under one roof and we all laughed and ate and enjoyed each others company ..
Surly God would not despise this love among family ? no ?
:HeartThrob:
Something else come to mind after thinking about this Thread ,,, and the many replies ..
Who has despised a day of small things ?
Zech 4 ...9"The hands of Zerubbabel[the seed of Babylon] have laid the foundation of this house, and his hands will finish it. Then you will know that the LORD of hosts has sent me to you.
10"For who has despised the day of small things? But these seven will be glad when they see the plumb line in the hand of Zerubbabel-- these are the eyes of the LORD which range to and fro throughout the earth."
One just might be guilty of swatting at gnats and swallowing camels ..... :winkgrin: I just do not know ... :HeartThrob:
I'm a UR believer...I don't consider myself religious. I believe I do have a relationship with God in Christ. I celebrate Christmas and I have a tree.I dont feel its wrong for me..I don't worship the tree. Lol, I just enjoy it...but if you think it's wrong..then for you it is. :HeartThrob:
What is humorous for all those who are rather new, this christmas question has come up every year for awhile now, right about this time. :Peace2:
It's a kids glove kind of discussion and nobody really gained any ground last time around either, all about the same responses. Maybe it should be one of them banded or taboo subjects, my opinion only, and I mean no offence to anyone. :HeartThrob: :dsunny:
I think rather than banning it, we could alternatively link this conversation to any new thread that comes up and encourage the poster to look through it.
Good idea Seth.
awe, it's just once a year. it could be worse, something like free will. :myahoo:
Quote from: jabcat on December 07, 2015, 08:34:43 AM
awe, it's just once a year. it could be worse, something like free will. :myahoo:
heck, come january we might even discuss UR. :wink2:
:laugh:
Great suggestions .....
I find these type of threads very helpful , not harmful ...
And we will always have those who are into head knowledge and those into heart knowledge .
Both serve the Lord in their own ways
Its where ever we are are at in our walk in the Lord ,
Walking in the Spirit of Love is not so easy a task .
Being in the world but not of it ...
I know Jesus kept company with the common folk and harlots and tax collectors , those were the poor in Spirit and were willing to accept Him and His Word , the religious leaders were not willing to hear anything Jesus said and always took offense , they were quit content with the spirit they already possessed.
How we Love God and our fellow man is what will matter in the end .......... :HeartThrob:
Jab and EW & Seth :rolllol: :dsunny:
Quote from: jabcat on December 07, 2015, 08:34:43 AM
awe, it's just once a year. it could be worse, something like free will. :myahoo:
:LH:
Quote from: Shev on December 06, 2015, 07:42:51 AM
This is a great discussion, with some really interesting perspectives on all sides!
I have kind of a left-field question... other days and seasons such as Halloween, Ramadan, Karva Chauth, Litha (the Summer Solstice) and Day of the Dead?
This is not meant to offend anyone, or be sarcastic, just add a new layer to that aspect of the discussion.
:Chinscratch: hmmm, very interesting... If I was raised a Muslim.. I wonder if I would observe Ramadan.. personally, likely not, as I tend to view (being a Christian) that system as being of another 'god'. But there is, I believe the moderate ones, which perhaps don't really have to do with that other 'god'...??
If I were raised Catholic I think I would likely still go to mass (this speaking as a pretty much unchurched person! Scratching head..)
I don't care for halloween but I don't try to get my grand children not to go trick or treating, then they would just feel like they're missing something. It's not that they are worshiping ghosts and demons and witches.. I don't much care for the month of October and its chiller movies, etc which seems to take advantage of the month.. And ouigi boards and all as mentioned above.. Oh man! run away from quickly!
If I had been raised Hindu, would I observe the day of (Hindu) prayer and fasting for husband, etc? Would I come out of that whole system? I think I likely would.. unless there had been a great movement, nationally or collectively, to change such days over into Yahweh and Christ centered days of fasting and prayer.. But then again, I'm not much of a joiner anyway..
I kind of think indigenous faiths came about, or were built upon someone's finding of a profound truth.. then over time were added on to.. But the faith that was around ancient Israel was, it seems to me, having to do with human sacrifice (the babes and the baal-molechs, especially). Archaeologically, I read that Jericho was the oldest known city.. Maybe Eden itself was where Jeru-salem was built.. And that, to my mind, could be why the adversary chose that land.. Canaan land.. to desecrate.. :dontknow:
I don't know that much about Hindu.. lots of 'gods' like other nations.. But before I was a Christian I studied about Eastern religion (Brahma and yogi's) and meditation which as I learned it was ideally the silencing of one's mind so quiet one could 'hear' the voice of God.. drifting down like a feather.. Now when I became aware of the God of the Bible, He did not seem to be a different God.. then I learned about Jesus, His Son. But I have still never thought of Yahweh as being a different God from the one I first felt I touched upon in eastern meditation. [I actually 'found' God while in the mountains, and He, it seemed to me used my studies, brief, of world religions, and of astrology, one day when it seemed like a thought drifted across the sky and hit me in the head saying "you've been learning about the forces at work in the universe, what about the force that created the universe, and what if that force has consciousness?" and like a light turning on I thought "God!"And my life was never the same again.. Camping weekends there He would be.. (Nature is after all His reflection except for death and predator-ness!) But when back in the city, I could not sense Him.. Til about a month later read a bible tract called "God's Great Plan of Salvation" - which as we know, is truly "Great"!]
I have sort of the same attitude about what the Native Americans called the Great Spirit.. I believe I have glimpsed a bit of Yahweh in some of that..
I think the angels (and demons) are active in all these faiths (including my own, the Christian!)
But of course there is only one Father God, who is Yahweh.. and one Son sent to be savior of the world.. (And I no longer 'meditate' unless it is upon God's Word, or simply focusing upon God's Spirit/Presence. I still however, find Quietness, in Him, to be quite sacred!)
Summer Solstice.. I don't celebrate or would, but say what you will, there's only One who designed those degrees in the circle of nature which are the solstices and equinox's.. I know Israel was told to observe the new moons..
Ultimately I figure any day which paganism confiscated for pagan observation, were all days which belong only to God who created days..
Day of the dead, I likely would not observe either, but of course they were never my traditions or traditions of my nation and family, so that's easy for me.
We could open up another can of worms and talk about "Sabbath or Sunday worship"? (If it should take off you can thank me later.) I remember doing a whole study about "sunday" in refuting "sunday worship as the mark of the beast". Where I realized Jesus did indeed rise as Sabbath was ending (saturday evening) and sunday was beginning.. as that's the hours He died and He said He would be in the grave 3 nights and 3 days, not 2 and 1/2 or anything.. That meant Passover ended wednesday evening as He was dying. He was in the grave (as unleavened bread in the oven) for those 3 days and nights. (Unleavend Bread also called Sabbath, or even Passover, was always the day right after Passover.) And He rose as the regular weekly Sabbath day was ending, and the third Spring Holy Day was dawning which was "Firstfruits" when a single sheaf of grain was waved in the air. Firstfruits was
always on a "sunday". So, i figure(d) how could sunday belong to Satan? And tho some denied it, the early believers (imo) called sunday the Lord's day.. (Meaning the Lord Jesus/Y'shua.) Personally I prefer to worship every day, which I think most of us lovers of the Lord do prefer. If I were so fortunate to have a whole day of rest, the saturday sabbath I would prefer and might even think of as superior.. but now I pretty much think of the whole week-
end as very good days.. and what about in the days of Joshua was it? or Elijah? when the sun stopped or went backwards a day.. does this make sunday now saturday? :dontknow: Does it matter? Such being merely a "shadow of things to come". I like to think every day should have set apart time. Time I think of as keeping sabbath. "Resting in Him and in His finished work". The sabbath being a shadow and type of Jesus-in-whom-we-rest - Hebrews 4:1-15, and therefor - verse 16.
And Sabbath and eating meat, and meat offered to idols is the issues discussed in the New Testament.
Romans (13:13) 14:1-22 & 23; Colossians 2:15,16
Please excuse my long winded babbling.. :flamebreath:
Quote from: eaglesway on December 06, 2015, 10:55:26 AM
Requires wisdom folks! Sorry- no pat answers. :laugh:
:thumbsup: :thumbsup:
Quote from: sheila on December 06, 2015, 05:30:59 PM
this topic defintely needed discussed..so glad all these different aspects were brought up.
want to share a coping mechanism I have to get around Halloween with my gran-kids. Harvest festival...the mennonites have
a harvest festival..with fun things...corn maze..pumpkin patch,hayrides caramel apples etc.. also, seasonal decorating......a display of
bales of hay, mums..pumpkins/squash and shocks of corn. decorate inside with colored leaves center-pieces/mini-gourds/pumpkins etc
winter......candles..everygreen boughs with pinecones snowmen and winter- themed etc. sleds/ice-skates......
a time and season for every purpose under heaven.........
:thumbsup: I like that! We have a place close by here where my daughter takes her children which follows more of the harvest theme..
Also I've read this "A harvest is associated with each of these, Passover with the harvest of barley: Pentecost with the harvest of wheat; and Tabernacles with the grape harvest..."
Quote from: jabcat on December 07, 2015, 08:34:43 AM
awe, it's just once a year. it could be worse, something like free will. :myahoo:
YAY a new Christmas tradition!
SMH Seth ... :laugh: Marie...Iv'e been hit up aside the head..by a thought of His a time or two,myself. :HeartThrob:
I don't know....but from my perspective, Christmas is not a pagan holiday. It is the celebration of Christ's birth, disguised so that Christians' lives would not be in danger for celebrating it. Just as Jesus, Mary and Joseph went into Egypt to save the life of Jesus, so we as Christians piggy-backed on the winter solace, to save lives.
Do many corrupt it? Absolutely. This is a fallen world and everything becomes corrupt. But, let's stop a minute and think how many children have knelt at the manger and given their heart to Christ? How many people have heard the name of Christ through a care box sent, a present bought, a prison, hospital or nursing home visited? How many hearts have the carols touched. And how about all the beauty of Christians being the light of the world when they stand strong against the tide of criticism and keep Christ the center of their Christmas?
There is a remenent out there......living in the Spirit and choosing God's way and not the world's.
Perhaps Christmas is to our time what Joseph was to his brothers in Egypt...... What men meant for evil, God used for good.
A Christmas hymn, sung by James Taylor:
Some Children see Him
Some children see Him lily white,
The baby Jesus born this night.
Some children see Him lily white,
With tresses soft and fair.
Some children see Him bronzed and brown,
The Lord of heav'n to earth come down.
Some children see Him bronzed and brown,
With dark and heavy hair.
Some children see Him almond-eyed,
This Savior whom we kneel beside.
Some children see Him almond-eyed,
With skin of yellow hue.
Some children see Him dark as they,
Sweet Mary's Son to whom we pray.
Some children see him dark as they,
And, ah! they love Him, too!
The children in each different place
Will see the baby Jesus' face
Like theirs, but bright with heavenly grace,
And filled with holy light.
O lay aside each earthly thing
And with thy heart as offering,
Come worship now the infant King.
'Tis love that's born tonight!
Quote from: sheila on December 07, 2015, 11:01:02 PM
SMH Seth ... :laugh: Marie...Iv'e been hit up aside the head..by a thought of His a time or two,myself. :HeartThrob:
:laughing7: :LH: :gimmefive:
Quote from: Dandelion on December 07, 2015, 11:43:47 PM
I don't know....but from my perspective, Christmas is not a pagan holiday. It is the celebration of Christ's birth, disguised so that Christians' lives would not be in danger for celebrating it. Just as Jesus, Mary and Joseph went into Egypt to save the life of Jesus, so we as Christians piggy-backed on the winter solace, to save lives.
I never thought of that..!
Quote from: Dandelion on December 07, 2015, 11:43:47 PM
The children in each different place
Will see the baby Jesus' face
Like theirs (but bright with heavenly grace)...
Amen "like theirs" ..I just LOVE that! :dsunny: He is SO Good!
Quote from: Seth on December 07, 2015, 10:47:32 PM
Quote from: jabcat on December 07, 2015, 08:34:43 AM
awe, it's just once a year. it could be worse, something like free will. :myahoo:
YAY a new Christmas tradition!
:cloud9: HILARIOUS! :LH:
very precious Hymn you shared Dandlyon..... :girlheart:
:cloud9: Amen, yes it is :thumbsup:
:HeartThrob:
Loved what you shared Dandelion !! Amen !!God uses it all for good !! :dsunny: great song ..
Time to have that yearly opening the can of worms tradition! :LH:
I will say, basically the persons intention. Is your heart on glorifying God? Or is it on having the perfect decorations? Or the best tree? Or even just be grateful for all your blessings one day a year, and not daily?
But not doing it out of fear either, that if you don't do this and that perfectly God is going to punish you for it. Perfect love casts out fear...
Quote from: Dandelion on December 07, 2015, 11:43:47 PM
I don't know....but from my perspective, Christmas is not a pagan holiday. It is the celebration of Christ's birth, disguised so that Christians' lives would not be in danger for celebrating it. Just as Jesus, Mary and Joseph went into Egypt to save the life of Jesus, so we as Christians piggy-backed on the winter solace, to save lives.
Do many corrupt it? Absolutely. This is a fallen world and everything becomes corrupt. But, let's stop a minute and think how many children have knelt at the manger and given their heart to Christ? How many people have heard the name of Christ through a care box sent, a present bought, a prison, hospital or nursing home visited? How many hearts have the carols touched. And how about all the beauty of Christians being the light of the world when they stand strong against the tide of criticism and keep Christ the center of their Christmas?
There is a remenent out there......living in the Spirit and choosing God's way and not the world's.
Perhaps Christmas is to our time what Joseph was to his brothers in Egypt...... What men meant for evil, God used for good.
A Christmas hymn, sung by James Taylor:
Some Children see Him
Some children see Him lily white,
The baby Jesus born this night.
Some children see Him lily white,
With tresses soft and fair.
Some children see Him bronzed and brown,
The Lord of heav'n to earth come down.
Some children see Him bronzed and brown,
With dark and heavy hair.
Some children see Him almond-eyed,
This Savior whom we kneel beside.
Some children see Him almond-eyed,
With skin of yellow hue.
Some children see Him dark as they,
Sweet Mary's Son to whom we pray.
Some children see him dark as they,
And, ah! they love Him, too!
The children in each different place
Will see the baby Jesus' face
Like theirs, but bright with heavenly grace,
And filled with holy light.
O lay aside each earthly thing
And with thy heart as offering,
Come worship now the infant King.
'Tis love that's born tonight!
Here is how I would sum up my issues with Xmas:
I am not political, but I noticed that the elder Bush had a memorial ceremony recently. It was "about him", and as far as I am aware, the entire focus of the ceremony was on him - the speeches reminisced about him, and so forth. Should someone have come forward and started randomly talking about reindeer, or snowmen, or an imaginary man in a red coat, it would have been unseemly and outrageous. The whole point of the service was to remember one person, and so, the focus was appropriate. Thus it is with any true memorial service.
I have spent entire Xmas seasons working around many fellow believers, and not heard the name of Jesus mentioned one time in many of those years! And yet those same believers will insist that the whole season is about Him! I just don't see it - it is a veneer of the nativity story stretched over a garden variety secular festival that is beloved by multitudes of people who hate Christ. Yes, many believers really "feel Him" in the season...but not because He is in the festival, but because He is in them! If there was suddenly a festival about Him being in a golf course, you would feel Him when you went to the golf course - because He would be in you! It would not validate the "golf course festival" that a spiritually alive person feels the spirit when they are on a golf course!
The New Testament is an example of something else that claims to be all about Jesus - and guess what? It is! You can't go a line or two without being confronted with His sublime person. It does what it says on the tin, so to speak. Now why, when the Father has demonstrated in His holy scriptures what HE means by "all about Jesus", is He suddenly so quick to share His Son's "memorial day" with Santa Claus, Charlie Brown, Xmas trees, and the biggest celebration of commercial activity the world ever sees?
Having said all that, I never believe in trying to force anyone to do this or that - even in spiritual matters, all you end up with is a new attempt at Law. My wife keeps it with her family, and took our new daughter with her, and I have no problem at all, as there would be no point in trying to make her miserable over it, or chain her to something I believe, and she does not. So it is with everyone - we really should be convinced in our own mind to do anything, or else it is not of faith.
:cloud9: It's that time again......no......but blessings to all regardless..... :HeartThrob:
I think if someone is blessed with it, and in their purity of heart worship and adore Him especially on that day, then that's great.
For me personally, I don't even try anymore to focus on a celebration of His birth on the day. I believe He should be focused on and celebrated/worshiped every day. On the other hand, I endure [the stress of] it, and "observe" it as a fairly "secular" time (although blessed) to do special things for my family, enjoy spending time with them, and eating good food I don't necessarily get to partake of every day.
I personally seek to esteem every day as the rest, my life just seems to work better that way. But if others enjoy and benefit from observing days, that's between them and God. :2c:
I'm usually glad when it's over :)
*I edited "fairly secular time", because we're supposed to do everything in His name and "as unto the Lord". So even if not "recognizing" the day as "Christmas", I believe whatever we do should be part of our walk with Him. :thumbsup:
:ty: :iagree:
Here's what is happening in my life:
I remember as a child feeling very much that Christmas celebrated Christ. Obviously also with the oddly thrown in Santa and gifts, but I remember loving to attend church Christmas Eve, and I remember praying at night in bed "happy birthday Jesus" (yeah I know it's not his actual birthday but as a kid I believed it was).
Now that I have my own kids, for the past 7 years of motherhood, each year I have grown more and more to distaste Christmas.
Why?
Because I'm finding that the world around us suffocates us with materialism, consumerism, selfishness, greed, drinking alcohol, overindulgence of food, Santa, unruly overstimulated kids...
Each year I write a list for next Christmas to try to simplify the following year and combat what I listed above and each year, while my husband and I work so hard to push against the tide, the world seems to push harder.
So I think I'm slowly feeling "done" with Christmas because what is has to offer is only negatively impacting my kids and my family.
We have never done Santa in our family, and the world is Santa obsessed and I find it so odd the lies parents are telling their kids each yeas, and my kids feel uncomfortable about it all.
I try to make it about thinking of others so we buy gifts for people in nursing homes etc but everyone just asks my kids what they want and what Santa is brining and so many families overspend, on my kids and their own, that even when we only get our kids a few things they end up with so much from family and friends.
Ok, rant over, I wish it could be a simple time to share with family, but in my life it isn't working out that way.
But.. merry Christmas everyone! Haha
At the very least I do love many of the carols.
"God rest ye merry gentleman let nothing you dismay. Remember Christ our savior was born on Christmas Day, to save US ALL from satan's power when we had gone astray. Tidings of COMFORT and JOY, comfort and joy, oh tidings of comfort and joy"
"Oh come oh come Emmanuel"
"Oh holy night"
"This, this is Christ the King,
Whom shepherds guard and Angels sing"
Etc.
Amen Shev and Jabcat.
Shev—the part about Bush's ceremony—YES!
Jabcat—"I'm usually glad when it's over" YES...this to me is a sign that it's not working for me anymore, when all I feel surrounding the holiday is dread and I'm glad it's over.
Does anyone have advice about dealing with family and friends? I tell people we don't do Santa and I tell people we want a simple Christmas with few/no gifts but people don't listen.
For people who opt out when their other family members celebrate—do you physically stay home? Do you care about causing rifts in family? Am I just being too timid to go along with it? I like spending time with family, for example for thanksgiving it's nice to eat a meal, but Christmas is just so overwhelming I can't enjoy it anymore, each year it's been like this but each year I think "next year I can change this and that and it will be better" but it doesn't work out.
I dread it every year,too.I buy thoughtful gifts..and always try and distribute them before..during Hannaka days is good generally.
I told my granddaughter..Happy Hannuka!when I give hers.Generally unwrapped..or seasonal paper/snowflakes/pinecones etc..It's a
thorn in my side.It's a big burden on a lot of people....Last week at the doctors office,she asked if I was ready for christmas...I
said..'ready for it to be over" she said'so amI"
I don't do any special dinner or anything..however when grandkids come after for a fewdays..may fix tacos and
invite family during that time. Generally,I spend it alone...and don'tmind at all[prefer it] However,my brother doesn't like the ideaofthat
...and to spare hisfeelings...I am goingover there this afternoon...a simple meat/cheeseplatter andchips.No tree at his house or mine
In this world..it seems it's always the one who loves and gives the most that gets the short end of the stick..andIjust feelthat
FatherandJesus are gettingthat short end regarding Christmas.my :2c:
looking forward to that new heavens/earth..where they will be loved/honoured as they deserve and we shall all celebrate intruth
andjoy. :2c:
Quote from: rodgertutt on December 25, 2018, 08:06:02 AM
#29 - THE MODERN HISTORY OF UNIVERSALISM – THOMAS WHITTEMORE
Contains the writings of several hundreds of Christian Universalists from 1498 to 1830.
A snippet from Thomas Whittemore reads, "I cannot permit this opportunity to pass without expressing my heart felt acknowledgements to that Being Who has preserved my health and enabled me to finish this work in the midst of other pressing and incessant duties. May my confidence in Him never be diminished."
What Rodger posted in his thread, especially what I highlighted is my celebration of Christmas, which happens
"every" morning when I get up
I do celebrate Christmas.