Luke 14:26 - If anyone comes to me and does not hate his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be my disciple. [ESV]
The word hate here is translated from miseō [G3404]
1) to hate, pursue with hatred, detest
2) to be hated, detested
Is this a poor translation of the word miseo?
Or am I just not getting it?
:dontknow: :Chinscratch: :dunno2:
Quote from: jbertonbounds on August 08, 2013, 04:49:20 AM
Luke 14:26 - If anyone comes to me and does not hate his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be my disciple. [ESV]
The word hate here is translated from miseō [G3404]
1) to hate, pursue with hatred, detest
2) to be hated, detested
Is this a poor translation of the word miseo?
Or am I just not getting it?
:dontknow: :Chinscratch: :dunno2:
It's in the context of caring more about family than the Lord is not cool. Compare Deuteronomy 13:6-11, 33:9; Matthew 10:37-38; Revelation 12:11. Matthew 10:37 says it better. See the attachment.
[attachment deleted by admin]
:HeartThrob: I have a slightly different take on this.
One cannot have total Love for Father and Christ, WITHOUT having total love for family. Once Father has opened the flood gates of true love, there is no one not to love. :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob:
LOVE is complete Appreciation for all. :HeartThrob:
So it is impossible to HATE your family. Jesus KNEW this :girlheart:
Love Julie :HeartThrob:
Right, I think the verse should be considered in context to better understand what Christ intended to communicate. Matthew 5:44 and Luke 6:27 say to even love your enemies.
12 Now He said to him also who has invited Him, "Whenever you may be making a luncheon or a dinner, do not be summoning your friends, nor yet your brothers, nor yet your relatives, nor yet rich neighbors, lest at some time they also should be inviting you in return, and repayment may come to you.
13 But, whenever you may be making a reception, invite the poor, the cripples, the lame, the blind,
14 and happy will you be, for they have nothing to repay you, for it will be repaid you in the resurrection of the just."
15 Now hearing these things, someone of those lying back at table with Him, said to Him, "Happy is he who will be eating bread in the kingdom of God!"
16 Now He said to him, "A certain man made a great dinner, and invites many.
17 And he dispatches his slave at the dinner hour to say to those invited, 'Come, for already, it is ready!'
18 And they all begin, from one motive, to make excuse. The first said to him, 'I buy a field, and I have felt the necessity of coming out to see it. I am asking you to have me excused.'
19 And a different one said, 'I buy five yoke of oxen, and I am going to test them. I am asking you to have me excused.'
20 And a different one said, 'I marry a wife, and therefore I can not come.'
21 "And, coming along, the slave reports these things to his lord. Then being indignant, the householder said to his slave, 'Come out quickly into the squares and streets of the city, and lead in here the poor, and cripples, and blind, and lame.'
22 "And the slave said to him, 'Lord, what you enjoin is done, and still there is place.'
23 And the lord said to the slave, 'Come out into the roads and stone dikes, and compel them to enter, that my house may be crammed.
24 For I am saying to you that not one of those men who are invited shall be tasting of my dinner.'"
25 Now vast throngs went together with Him. And, being turned, He said to them,
26 "If anyone is coming to Me and is not hating his father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, and still more his soul besides, he can not be My disciple.
27 And anyone who is not bearing his cross and coming after Me, can not be My disciple." (Luke 14:12-27)
43 "You hear that it was declared, 'You shall be loving your associate' and you shall be hating your enemy.
44 Yet I am saying to you, Love your enemies, and pray for those who are persecuting you,
45 so that you may become sons of your Father Who is in the heavens, for He causes His sun to rise on the wicked and the good, and makes it rain on the just and the unjust." (Matthew 5:43-45)
27 "But to you, who are hearing, am I saying: Love your enemies. Be doing ideally to those who are hating you.
28 Bless those who are cursing you. Pray concerning those who are traducing you." (Luke 6:27,28)
It's always best to try to consider a verse in context to help understand the true meaning. Christ lost followers who couldn't understand the spiritual significance of what he was saying sometimes.
51 "I am the living Bread which descends out of heaven. If anyone should be eating of this Bread, he shall be living for the eon. Now the Bread also, which I shall be giving for the sake of the life of the world, is My flesh."
52 The Jews, then, fought with one another, saying, "How then can this one give us his flesh to eat?"
53 Jesus, then, said to them, "Verily, verily, I am saying to you, If you should not be eating the flesh of the Son of Mankind and drinking His blood, you have no eonian life in yourselves." (John 6:51-53)
59 These things He said, teaching in a synagogue in Capernaum.
60 Many of His disciples, then, hearing it, said, "Hard is this saying! Who can hear it?"
61 Now Jesus, being aware in Himself that His disciples are murmuring concerning this, said to them, "This is snaring you?
62 If, then, you should be beholding the Son of Mankind ascending where He was formerly -- ?
63 The Spirit is that which is vivifying. The flesh is not benefiting anything. The declarations which I have spoken to you are spirit and are life.
64 But there are some of you who are not believing." For Jesus had perceived from the beginning who those are who are not believing, and who it is that gives Him up.
65 And He said, "Therefore have I declared to you that no one can be coming to Me if it should not be given him of the Father."
66 At this, then, many of His disciples came away, dropping behind, and walked no longer with Him.
67 Jesus, then, said to the twelve, "Not you also are wanting to go away!"
68 Simon Peter answered Him, "Lord, to whom shall we come away? Declarations of life eonian hast Thou!
69 And we believe and know that Thou art the Holy One of God."
70 Jesus answered and said to them, "Do not I choose you, the twelve, and one of you is an adversary?"
71 Now He said it of Judas, son of Simon Iscariot, for this man was about to give Him up, being one of the twelve. (John 6:59-71)
Please forgive my ignorance dearTom, but do you agree with my understanding?
I just got lost that's all :HeartThrob:
Love Julie
IMO, it's simply a comparison. Compared to the love you should have for God, your feelings toward your family would comparitively be hate.-
especially if family interferes with your love for God, as one should hate anything that comes between you and your Lord. :Chinscratch:
Well, for one thing, Jesus used hyperbole a lot when he spoke to the crowds.
(Hyperbole: the use of exaggeration as a rhetorical device or figure of speech. It may be used to evoke strong feelings or to create a strong impression...)
Examples: It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven.
And if your right hand subverts you, cut it off, cast it from you, for it is profitable for you that one of your members be lost, and not that your whole body fall into Gehenna.
Even though these sayings can be considered hyperbole when it comes to the physical and literal aspect of them, EVERYTHING He said was spiritual Truth, the Living Word, and the bread from heaven, which needs to be quickened by the Spirit to give us understanding to these things or we will reject them, just as the crowds did when He told them we must "eat His flesh and drink His blood".
All this taken into consideration, is my belief and experience that what Jesus meant here was that if we do not put God and His Living Word FIRST, above ALL else, even despite rejection of family, friends and church members, then it is impossible to be His disciple. How can we follow God if we are not willing to face the rejection of all of those around us? It is impossible. Look at the life of Jesus for proof of that. When we are learning from HIM and following HIS voice and leading we quickly become heretics and psychotics to most everyone. Will we continue to follow Him and share in His sufferings, and "hate" our very flesh life enough to "die" to it? Or will we choose the fleeting approval of man and veer off of the Way to abundant life?
I KNOW MY CHOICE AND I WILL NEVER GO BACK!!! :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob:
And pretty much everyone on this forum has already made the choice to put His truth first and become a heretic... you are already "hating" your life enough to put His Truth first. WELL DONE!!
Quote from: JulieTang84 on August 08, 2013, 04:06:57 PM
Please forgive my ignorance dearTom, but do you agree with my understanding?
I just got lost that's all :HeartThrob:
Love Julie
Yes, Julie, I think Christ's ultimate message is love for all including God and all your fellow human beings. I was trying to say that the context in which that verse was presented along with the comparison scriptures helped clarify that he was saying if your family, friends, or anybody else doesn't follow him, you have to choose to follow Christ even though we'll suffer persecution because of that decision sometimes the worst of which comes from our family. I used to be the black sheep of my family who now sees that the love of God is more important than church doctrine. I was raised in the Catholic Church that taught me everybody who wasn't Catholic was going to hell including my Methodist mom. That was one of the reasons I started to realize that church was not for me, and I left it when I was a very young man. These days I receive most of my persecution from other church folks who claim to be Christian, but I try to always respond in love because I realize their perception is distorted by their church doctrine. I really believe that God is love, and love being the most powerful force in the universe overcomes all. It is the love that we allow to flow through us to others that is the best witness to those who are trapped in darkness. Sometimes we don't even have to speak the word of God to share that love. The power of God's love will eventually save all of mankind from that darkness. Some of them don't believe that, but it will be impossible to deny when they see the Lord in the light of his love.
Quote from: ded2daworld on August 08, 2013, 04:58:11 PM
IMO, it's simply a comparison. Compared to the love you should have for God, your feelings toward your family would comparitively be hate.-
especially if family interferes with your love for God, as one should hate anything that comes between you and your Lord. :Chinscratch:
Amen, bro.
Quote from: lomarah on August 08, 2013, 05:27:15 PM
Well, for one thing, Jesus used hyperbole a lot when he spoke to the crowds.
(Hyperbole: the use of exaggeration as a rhetorical device or figure of speech. It may be used to evoke strong feelings or to create a strong impression...)
Examples: It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven.
And if your right hand subverts you, cut it off, cast it from you, for it is profitable for you that one of your members be lost, and not that your whole body fall into Gehenna.
Even though these sayings can be considered hyperbole when it comes to the physical and literal aspect of them, EVERYTHING He said was spiritual Truth, the Living Word, and the bread from heaven, which needs to be quickened by the Spirit to give us understanding to these things or we will reject them, just as the crowds did when He told them we must "eat His flesh and drink His blood".
All this taken into consideration, is my belief and experience that what Jesus meant here was that if we do not put God and His Living Word FIRST, above ALL else, even despite rejection of family, friends and church members, then it is impossible to be His disciple. How can we follow God if we are not willing to face the rejection of all of those around us? It is impossible. Look at the life of Jesus for proof of that. When we are learning from HIM and following HIS voice and leading we quickly become heretics and psychotics to most everyone. Will we continue to follow Him and share in His sufferings, and "hate" our very flesh life enough to "die" to it? Or will we choose the fleeting approval of man and veer off of the Way to abundant life?
I KNOW MY CHOICE AND I WILL NEVER GO BACK!!! :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob:
And pretty much everyone on this forum has already made the choice to put His truth first and become a heretic... you are already "hating" your life enough to put His Truth first. WELL DONE!!
Amen, sister.
All great comments so far, but so much talk about hate. :sigh:
Where Love is Hate cannot be, for what association has light with darkness? 2Cor 6:14
Mat 22:37 Jesus replied: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.'
God Fitst :HeartThrob:
Mat 22:38 This is the first and greatest commandment.
Mat 22:39 And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'
And EVERYONE including Family Members as OURSELF :HeartThrob:
But are we to love ourselves, what is there to love. REALLY? A whole lot :dsunny:
Psa 139:13 For you created my inmost being; you knit me together in my mother's womb.
Psa 139:14 I praise you because I am fearfully and wonderfully made; your works are wonderful, I know that full well.
Psa 139:15 My frame was not hidden from you when I was made in the secret place, when I was woven together in the depths of the earth.
Psa 139:16 Your eyes saw my unformed body; all the days ordained for me were written in your book before one of them came to be.
Father, I do praise you. Life is precious :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob:
So, the question is: Who are we to hate our bodies?
1Cr 6:19 Do you not know that your bodies are temples of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own; :HeartThrob:
You see loved ones here and everywhere, I cannot hate my body and neither can I hate anyone. Period.
Lomarah you said it best: :HeartThrob: Hyperbole for if taken verbatim it smacks in the face, Love.
1 Cor 13:4-7 Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.
Anyone born of the Spirit is no longer their own. WOW!!! :HeartThrob:
Just where I am......
Love Julie
One thing that often gets missed in this portion of scripture is, "and yea, even his own life, cannot be my disciple".
Jesus is a preist, and His priesthood was sanctified/set apart/enacted by the willing sacrifice of His own life for the will of His Father and the joy that was set before Him was the restoration of the whole creation.
The verses are about discipleship and self sacrifice.....not about hating anyone. Do you love your mother or father or children or spouse enough to release them to God and put Jesus first is more the meaning, for instance.......
How can God, who so loved you that He gave His only begotten son for you, desire that you hate yourself?
But the issue Jesus is making is not about simply believing in Him. It is about becoming a disciple. Jesus love His mother so much that in His last breathes on the cross He made provision for her. But during His ministry, His earthly preisthood, He did not let her interfere with the purpose of the Father, nor did He let His love for her restrain Him in anway from doing the will of God.
So perhaps a paraphrase like, "If you would be my disciple, follow in my footsteps, join this preisthood, you must choose your submission to me above everything and everyone that you count precious in your life, and even your very own life."
No greater love has a man than this- to lay down his life for his friends. In this context, we lay down our lives for our friends by placing submission to Christ above everything, becoming ministers of reconciliation....even when they do not understand and sometimes hates us for it. Of course this comes with a great obligation and responsibility- that we be honest with ourselves and with God- because I hav know so-called disciples that treat others roughly and irresponsibly and justify it by those very verses that ought to teach them to love as Christ loved- placing the Father first(the two great commandments) and laying down His life for His friends.
:2c:
Quote from: lomarah on August 08, 2013, 05:27:15 PM
Well, for one thing, Jesus used hyperbole a lot when he spoke to the crowds.
(Hyperbole: the use of exaggeration as a rhetorical device or figure of speech. It may be used to evoke strong feelings or to create a strong impression...)
Examples: It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven.
And if your right hand subverts you, cut it off, cast it from you, for it is profitable for you that one of your members be lost, and not that your whole body fall into Gehenna.
Even though these sayings can be considered hyperbole when it comes to the physical and literal aspect of them, EVERYTHING He said was spiritual Truth, the Living Word, and the bread from heaven, which needs to be quickened by the Spirit to give us understanding to these things or we will reject them, just as the crowds did when He told them we must "eat His flesh and drink His blood".
All this taken into consideration, is my belief and experience that what Jesus meant here was that if we do not put God and His Living Word FIRST, above ALL else, even despite rejection of family, friends and church members, then it is impossible to be His disciple. How can we follow God if we are not willing to face the rejection of all of those around us? It is impossible. Look at the life of Jesus for proof of that. When we are learning from HIM and following HIS voice and leading we quickly become heretics and psychotics to most everyone. Will we continue to follow Him and share in His sufferings, and "hate" our very flesh life enough to "die" to it? Or will we choose the fleeting approval of man and veer off of the Way to abundant life?
I KNOW MY CHOICE AND I WILL NEVER GO BACK!!! :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob:
And pretty much everyone on this forum has already made the choice to put His truth first and become a heretic... you are already "hating" your life enough to put His Truth first. WELL DONE!!
Thanx, Lomarah, this really helped! :thumbsup:
Quote from: eaglesway on August 08, 2013, 07:25:17 PM
One thing that often gets missed in this portion of scripture is, "and yea, even his own life, cannot be my disciple".
Jesus is a preist, and His priesthood was sanctified/set apart/enacted by the willing sacrifice of His own life for the will of His Father and the joy that was set before Him was the restoration of the whole creation.
The verses are about discipleship and self sacrifice.....not about hating anyone. Do you love your mother or father or children or spouse enough to release them to God and put Jesus first is more the meaning, for instance.......
How can God, who so loved you that He gave His only begotten son for you, desire that you hate yourself?
But the issue Jesus is making is not about simply believing in Him. It is about becoming a disciple. Jesus love His mother so much that in His last breathes on the cross He made provision for her. But during His ministry, His earthly preisthood, He did not let her interfere with the purpose of the Father, nor did He let His love for her restrain Him in anway from doing the will of God.
So perhaps a paraphrase like, "If you would be my disciple, follow in my footsteps, join this preisthood, you must choose your submission to me above everything and everyone that you count precious in your life, and even your very own life."
No greater love has a man than this- to lay down his life for his friends. In this context, we lay down our lives for our friends by placing submission to Christ above everything, becoming ministers of reconciliation....even when they do not understand and sometimes hates us for it. Of course this comes with a great obligation and responsibility- that we be honest with ourselves and with God- because I hav know so-called disciples that treat others roughly and irresponsibly and justify it by those very verses that ought to teach them to love as Christ loved- placing the Father first(the two great commandments) and laying down His life for His friends.
:2c:
Amen, brother.
Quote from: JulieTang84 on August 08, 2013, 06:18:30 PM
All great comments so far, but so much talk about hate. :sigh:
Where Love is Hate cannot be, for what association has light with darkness? 2Cor 6:14
Mat 22:37 Jesus replied: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.'
God Fitst :HeartThrob:
Mat 22:38 This is the first and greatest commandment.
Mat 22:39 And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'
And EVERYONE including Family Members as OURSELF :HeartThrob:
But are we to love ourselves, what is there to love. REALLY? A whole lot :dsunny:
Psa 139:13 For you created my inmost being; you knit me together in my mother's womb.
Psa 139:14 I praise you because I am fearfully and wonderfully made; your works are wonderful, I know that full well.
Psa 139:15 My frame was not hidden from you when I was made in the secret place, when I was woven together in the depths of the earth.
Psa 139:16 Your eyes saw my unformed body; all the days ordained for me were written in your book before one of them came to be.
Father, I do praise you. Life is precious :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob:
So, the question is: Who are we to hate our bodies?
1Cr 6:19 Do you not know that your bodies are temples of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own; :HeartThrob:
You see loved ones here and everywhere, I cannot hate my body and neither can I hate anyone. Period.
Lomarah you said it best: :HeartThrob: Hyperbole for if taken verbatim it smacks in the face, Love.
1 Cor 13:4-7 Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.
Anyone born of the Spirit is no longer their own. WOW!!! :HeartThrob:
Just where I am......
Love Julie
Such good points about love, Julie. Thanks.
Amen Eaglesway. Your last paragraph says it all. :HeartThrob:
With Fathers love in our hearts there is no justification for anything but love. :HeartThrob:
It's important that we dont lose sight of the forest for the trees.
Love Julie :dsunny:
Quote from: eaglesway on August 08, 2013, 07:25:17 PM
One thing that often gets missed in this portion of scripture is, "and yea, even his own life, cannot be my disciple".
I noticed this "even his own life" when I was studying this last night. It does help focus on the context of this matter.
Jesus is a preist, and His priesthood was sanctified/set apart/enacted by the willing sacrifice of His own life for the will of His Father and the joy that was set before Him was the restoration of the whole creation.
The verses are about discipleship and self sacrifice.....not about hating anyone. Do you love your mother or father or children or spouse enough to release them to God and put Jesus first is more the meaning, for instance.......
How can God, who so loved you that He gave His only begotten son for you, desire that you hate yourself?
But the issue Jesus is making is not about simply believing in Him. It is about becoming a disciple. Jesus love His mother so much that in His last breathes on the cross He made provision for her. But during His ministry, His earthly preisthood, He did not let her interfere with the purpose of the Father, nor did He let His love for her restrain Him in anway from doing the will of God.
So perhaps a paraphrase like, "If you would be my disciple, follow in my footsteps, join this preisthood, you must choose your submission to me above everything and everyone that you count precious in your life, and even your very own life."
I like your paraphrase.
No greater love has a man than this- to lay down his life for his friends. In this context, we lay down our lives for our friends by placing submission to Christ above everything, becoming ministers of reconciliation....even when they do not understand and sometimes hates us for it. Of course this comes with a great obligation and responsibility- that we be honest with ourselves and with God- because I hav know so-called disciples that treat others roughly and irresponsibly and justify it by those very verses that ought to teach them to love as Christ loved- placing the Father first(the two great commandments) and laying down His life for His friends.
:2c:
Perhaps the best way to understand this is to consider elements of both views on this verse presented by you all: (1) hyperbole is used here, and (2) comparison of love and devotion for God as compared to that for our families.
I was also thinking that, since he is obviously not saying to literally hate our family members, but rather to hate the sin nature of the humans - in other words, don't hate the humans, hate the sin nature of the humans. This thought was sparked when I noticed the phrase, "and yea, even his own life."
Perhaps this is one of those key scriptures that was left vague for the seekers to search out - after all, those are the ones to whom God reveals things. Non-seekers just overlook scriptures like this and say, "Oh well, we'll understand it someday. What's for lunch?" :banana:
Quote from: JulieTang84 on August 08, 2013, 07:32:56 PM
Amen Eaglesway. Your last paragraph says it all. :HeartThrob:
With Fathers love in our hearts there is no justification for anything but love. :HeartThrob:
It's important that we dont lose sight of the forest for the trees.
Love Julie :dsunny:
Julie, I think God sent you to us to keep reminding us of his love. :thumbsup:
Rom 9:13 according as it hath been written, `Jacob I did love, and Esau I did hate(detest).'
Mal 1:3 Is not Esau Jacob's brother? --an affirmation of Jehovah, And I love Jacob, and Esau I have hated(enemy, foe), And I make his mountains a desolation, And his inheritance for dragons of a wilderness.
Did Jehovah mean hate?
Did Jehovah mean Hate?
Yes he did, but he was not the Loving Father. :HeartThrob:
I think it is now pretty much accepted that Jesus was Jehovah.
"He learned obedience through the things He suffered." (Heb 5:8b)
:eek: Be warned the following is just a wild thought :HeartThrob:
I have often thought Father might have sent Jesus to Earth to learn something of Love. Like patience, long suffering, slow to anger, etc. All of the traits he displayed while here on Earth, but not so much in the OT.
Of course this is a mute point because we know he emptied himself of all his former being before becoming human.
:HeartThrob: :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob:
Love Julie
Quote from: micah7:9 on August 08, 2013, 08:34:56 PM
Rom 9:13 according as it hath been written, `Jacob I did love, and Esau I did hate(detest).'
Mal 1:3 Is not Esau Jacob's brother? --an affirmation of Jehovah, And I love Jacob, and Esau I have hated(enemy, foe), And I make his mountains a desolation, And his inheritance for dragons of a wilderness.
Did Jehovah mean hate?
Here again, I believe that the word hate is being used differently from the way we most often use it today. "For God so loved the world..." He did not hate Esau the human, he hated what Esau represented.
So yes, he meant what he said, that he hated what Esau symbolized, but he was not saying the same thing
we do when we say, "I hate So N. So."
My perspective is that Yahweh (Jehovah-King James) is the name of the living God in Hebrew scripture, and Christ is the word of God become flesh (John 1:14; Revelation 19:13), the image of God (2 Corinthians 4:4; Colossians 1:15), the only-begotten son of God (John 3:16,18; 1 John 4:9), and the Effulgence of His glory and Emblem of His assumption (Hebrews 1:3). I think Yahweh is invisible spirit. So, when Yahweh is manifested in Hebrew scripture, it is by his image who is Yeshua even if he hadn't been born yet as the Christ child.
I think the thing about hate and love is a matter of the relative and the absolute. Although God is love, "out of Him...is all" (Romans 11:36) including hate, but when scripture says that Yahweh hated Esau, I think it is only in a relative sense because Yahweh chose Jacob. This may cause some of you to come down on me, but I believe in the absolute sense that God loves all his creatures including even Satan who is simply doing his job as the Adversary but will one day lose his power (1 Corinthians 15:24). I also think Satan is included in "those on the earth or those in the heavens" (Colossians 1:20) who will be reconciled and be one of all the creatures in which God will be "all in all" (1 Corinthians 15:28). Most Christians don't want to hear that, but I think that is what "reconcile all" means, the entire universe which consists of all creation. So I think in the absolute sense it must be said that God loves all his creatures, but he who actually really does have free will in the absolute sense chooses to be merciful to some and harden others all to display his love in the long run.
I also think there's something to be said about context because that helps it become clearer why scripture said Yahweh hated Esau.
13 According as it is written, "Jacob I love, yet Esau I hate."
14 What, then, shall we be declaring? Not that there is injustice with God? May it not be coming to that!
15 For to Moses He is saying, "I shall be merciful to whomever I may be merciful, and I shall be pitying whomever I may be pitying."
16 Consequently, then, it is not of him who is willing, nor of him who is racing, but of God, the Merciful.
17 For the scripture is saying to Pharaoh that "For this selfsame thing I rouse you up, so that I should be displaying in you My power, and so that My name should be published in the entire earth."
18 Consequently, then, to whom He will, He is merciful, yet whom He will, He is hardening.
19 You will be protesting to me, then, "Why, then, is He still blaming? for who has withstood His intention?"
20 O man! who are you, to be sure, who are answering again to God? That which is molded will not protest to the molder, "Why do you make me thus?"
21 Or has not the potter the right over the clay, out of the same kneading to make one vessel, indeed, for honor, yet one for dishonor?
22 Now if God, wanting to display His indignation and to make His powerful doings known, carries, with much patience, the vessels of indignation, adapted for destruction,
23 it is that He should also be making known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He makes ready before for glory --
24 us, whom He calls also, not only out of the Jews, but out of the nations also. (Romans 9:13-24)
http://concordant.org/expohtml/GodAndChrist/names.html
http://concordant.org/expohtml/GodAndChrist/TheDeityOfGod5.html
Oh Tom you can share your thoughts anytime :HeartThrob:
Would you believe that I am very much on the same page regarding Esau and for that matter, Satan.
I hope you don't mind if I add a little what Father has shown me.
I am sure that we can all agree that Father is the "Cause" of Everything. We now know that there are galaxies as far away as 100 billion light years. That is almost an impossible distance to comprehend, as our Sun is 93 million miles away and light just takes around 8 minutes and 20 seconds.
We only know so much. Yes Father has revealed much to us, and certainly he has graced us with a mind to reason and discern beyond our wildest dreams.
We live in our known universe; however, there maybe 100's of bilions of univereses too. Just because Father has made us aware of only one, gives us no reason to rule out any more just because He hasn't told us. This goes with everything. We only know that have only scratched the surface of what there is to know.
Just my thoughts Tom, thank you for yours. :HeartThrob:
Love Julie
Quote from: JulieTang84 on August 09, 2013, 12:43:12 AM
Oh Tom you can share your thoughts anytime :HeartThrob:
Would you believe that I am very much on the same page regarding Esau and for that matter, Satan.
I hope you don't mind if I add a little what Father has shown me.
I am sure that we can all agree that Father is the "Cause" of Everything. We now know that there are galaxies as far away as 100 billion light years. That is almost an impossible distance to comprehend, as our Sun is 93 million miles away and light just takes around 8 minutes and 20 seconds.
We only know so much. Yes Father has revealed much to us, and certainly he has graced us with a mind to reason and discern beyond our wildest dreams.
We live in our known universe; however, there maybe 100's of bilions of univereses too. Just because Father has made us aware of only one, gives us no reason to rule out any more just because He hasn't told us. This goes with everything. We only know that have only scratched the surface of what there is to know.
Just my thoughts Tom, thank you for yours. :HeartThrob:
Love Julie
God bless you, sister.
Quote from: JulieTang84 on August 09, 2013, 12:43:12 AM
Oh Tom you can share your thoughts anytime :HeartThrob:
Would you believe that I am very much on the same page regarding Esau and for that matter, Satan.
I hope you don't mind if I add a little what Father has shown me.
I am sure that we can all agree that Father is the "Cause" of Everything. We now know that there are galaxies as far away as 100 billion light years. That is almost an impossible distance to comprehend, as our Sun is 93 million miles away and light just takes around 8 minutes and 20 seconds.
We only know so much. Yes Father has revealed much to us, and certainly he has graced us with a mind to reason and discern beyond our wildest dreams.
We live in our known universe; however, there maybe 100's of bilions of univereses too. Just because Father has made us aware of only one, gives us no reason to rule out any more just because He hasn't told us. This goes with everything. We only know that have only scratched the surface of what there is to know.
Just my thoughts Tom, thank you for yours. :HeartThrob:
Love Julie
Very interesting thoughts!
:thumbsup: :Chinscratch:
Quote from: jbertonbounds on August 08, 2013, 10:57:27 PM
Quote from: micah7:9 on August 08, 2013, 08:34:56 PM
Rom 9:13 according as it hath been written, `Jacob I did love, and Esau I did hate(detest).'
Mal 1:3 Is not Esau Jacob's brother? --an affirmation of Jehovah, And I love Jacob, and Esau I have hated(enemy, foe), And I make his mountains a desolation, And his inheritance for dragons of a wilderness.
Did Jehovah mean hate?
Here again, I believe that the word hate is being used differently from the way we most often use it today. "For God so loved the world..." He did not hate Esau the human, he hated what Esau represented.
So yes, he meant what he said, that he hated what Esau symbolized, but he was not saying the same thing we do when we say, "I hate So N. So."
I get what you are saying. "For God so loved the world..." Love is not used differently than how we accept it.
" He did not hate Esau the human, he hated what Esau represented." But He is still hated the same way ".....
we do when we say, "I hate So N. So."
Right?
That one line always has caused me pause, "Esau I hated." I am not trying to cause conflict, if love still means what it means and according to Strong's hate still means what it means;
God is love, but He still can hate? There is where I am stuck.......whether He hates what Esau represented, then does or can He hate? :HeartThrob:
So when Jesus said Luk 14:26 If any man come to me, and
hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.
He was speaking of hate= G3404 miseō (hatred); to detest (especially to persecute); by extension to love less: - hate (-ful).
Or not?
Great questions Micah :HeartThrob:
As you know Father has given me Love and I am going to try to answer according to Love :HeartThrob:
Rom 9:13 WhatAs it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
Rom 9:14 What shall we say then? [Is there] unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
Please consider the following:
Psa 139:13 For you created my inmost being; you knit me together in my mother's womb.
Psa 139:14 I praise you because I am fearfully and wonderfully made; your works are wonderful, I know that full well.
Psa 139:15 My frame was not hidden from you when I was made in the secret place, when I was woven together in the depths of the earth.
Psa 139:16 Your eyes saw my unformed body; all the days ordained for me were written in your book before one of them came to be.
Does it makes sense that Father would HATE one of those he so wonderfully made, having ordained all their days before they even came to be? :HeartThrob:
Isa 64:8 But now, O LORD, thou [art] our father; we [are] the clay, and thou our potter; and we all [are] the work of thy hand.
But we know not all were made for honorable perposes :sigh:
Rom 9:22 [What] if God, willing to shew [his] wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
Rom 9:23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
I sighed because many will judge such as these as if they were responsible; as if they were free to change.
So is this it? Father HATES to ones he formed that way?
Not according to Jesus. :HeartThrob:
Now it is my understanding that this is key :girlheart:
Luk 12:48 But the one who does not know and does things deserving punishment will be beaten with few blows...... :HeartThrob:
So, with everything taken into consideration, Father is NOT going to punished (corrected) severely. Not exactly fitting to a person Father supposedly HATE's is it.
So who is it that receives the greatest punishment?
Luke 12:47 "The servant who knows the master's will and does not get ready or does not do what the master wants will be beaten with many blows.
Luke 12: 48 (Continues) ......From everyone who has been given much, much will be demanded; and from the one who has been entrusted with much, much more will be asked.
This so get's glossed over by the Church. The very ones they say Father HATES receive little punishment whilst the ones whom have been given much (and blew it) will receive far greater punishment.
So here we have it, an impossible argument. :HeartThrob:
Fathers punishes the ones he HATES very little and punishes the ones he LOVES a whole BUNCH!!!!
Who is it He is hating?
Taken with Love, it is a real stretch believing that Father HATES any of his children, knowing that he has taken full responsibility for all their short comings.
Yet there is more evidence that proves beyond ALL REASON that He does not HATE Esua.
Mat 22:36 "Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?"
Mat 22:37 Jesus replied: " 'Love :HeartThrob: the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.' [fn]
Mat 22:38 This is the first and greatest commandment.
Mat 22:39 And the second is like it: 'Love :HeartThrob: your neighbor as yourself.' [fn]
Mat 22:40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."
Here we have the TWO GREATEST commandments which speak of nothing But LOVE. Father is LOVE.
Who is going to be the one, knowing all of this, to say: Yes, but God just saying: "Do what I say, not what I do!"
I am saying this with sadness as I sure it will offend :friendstu: But should anyone truly believes that Father HATES any of his children, BELIEVES WITHOUT QUESTION that Father breaks his own commandments every single day.
It is my hope that perhaps it can be seen that the word "Hate" was just a play on words as was suggested earlier by Lomarah. Father, nor Jesus used anything but SHARP contrasts in their teachings.
With Love, Julie :HeartThrob:
HATE
a : intense hostility and aversion usually deriving from fear, anger, or sense of injury
b : extreme dislike or antipathy : loathing
LOVE
a: unselfish loyal and benevolent concern for the good of another: as (1) : the fatherly concern of God for humankind (2) : brotherly concern for others
I thought it would be interesting to throw in these definitions from Webster's Dictionary.
For hate, that's all the definition they had.
For love, that was one of several, but it is the definition (IMO) of God's love.
Notice how the definitions of hate and love (agape love) are NOT opposites.
I have for some time believed that hate and God's love are not necessarily opposites, nor mutually exclusive.
You can hate a person, but still love them with God's love, because God's love takes on more of a verb form - it's an action word, so to speak.
This is the sense in which I conceive of how God hated Esau.
It is the sense in which you may hate a person's actions, personality, what they stand for, how they act, etc - (in other words, their attributes).
I might say I hate that person, but I can agape-love him too, because they are not mutually exclusive.
When he is sick, I can mow his yard.
When he is hungry, I can take him food.
When he is in prison, I can visit.
When he is need, I can provide.
Sound familiar?
God's love is not about how I feel; it's about God's purpose for his creation.
My personal preferences are not part of the equation.
Don't get me wrong, we need to make every effort to help others "feel loved," even if we personally don't like their personal attributes.
If we don't like (or hate) another person's attributes, they don't need to know of our dislike of them.
We need to have a respect for other humans that transcends our own preferences, and hold others in high esteem - they should be important to us!
Remember, God has probably "hated" a lot of the people he created, but he has certainly and clearly demonstrated his love for us! :HeartThrob:
Amen, bro.
:thumbsup: :gimmefive: :Peace2: :HeartThrob: Best I have read, clean, to the point, and true. :dsunny: You read my heart and put my thoughts to words.....thank you :dsunny:
JB wrote
QuoteDon't get me wrong, we need to make every effort to help others "feel loved," even if we personally don't like their personal attributes.
If we don't like (or hate) another person's attributes, they don't need to know of our dislike of them.
We need to have a respect for other humans that transcends our own preferences, and hold others in high esteem - they should be important to us!
Remember, God has probably "hated" a lot of the people he created, but he has certainly and clearly demonstrated his love for us!
Still not 100% sure Father can hate, but THANKS, this is beautiful
Love Julie :HeartThrob:
Julie, He cannot give us something He does not have. If we have it He made it, He has purpose. I will rest in that. :HeartThrob:
Quote from: micah7:9 on August 10, 2013, 04:43:15 AM
Julie, He cannot give us something He does not have. If we have it He made it, He has purpose. I will rest in that. :HeartThrob:
Sounds fair to me :friendstu: There is nothing left of hate in me. Love bridges everything :HeartThrob:
Yes, Father hates and it is GOOD!
Proverbs 6:16-19
These six things the Lord hates,
Yes, seven are an abomination to Him:
A proud look,
A lying tongue,
Hands that shed innocent blood,
A heart that devises wicked plans,
Feet that are swift in running to evil,
A false witness who speaks lies,
And one who sows discord among brethren.
Amen!
Amen
In the KJV it says, "Jacob I loved and Esau I hated".
Did God "hate" Esau? I don't think God hates anyone. "hate" is an English word, that in the times the KJV was written meant to reject, and did not always mean to bitterly despise. God is light and in Him is no darkness at all. There is no hatred in God for any person. Why would God hate what He Himself created. God rejects the works of the wicked, as well as their words and the attitudes of their hearts, but His rejection is the kolassis that is the flip side of His grace because it leads us inexorably there, to bow at His feet. "Sit thou at My right hand until I make all of your adversaries a footstool for your feet."
The anger of the Lord endures but for a moment, His tender mercies endure forever.
Hate is an incendiary word in our time, and we need, imo, to use it very carefully when referencing God, who hates no one, but rejects the imperfect works of the self-centered, be they unbeliever or "Christian", and burns them up in the fire/light/love of His intense presence until nothing is left but humility and the glorious freedom of love and forgiveness.
Esau was rejected because he traded his birthright for a bowl of soup. Jacob was loved because in the midst of his unrighteousness he hungered for God, sought out His plan and valued the gift of God's favor.
God, as far as I can see in the scriptures has never shown anger at anyone, except those who abuse power, those who poison the truth and those who are predators of other persons- but that is just my opinon :o), I am just throwin it into the mix.
For me the comfortable way to aprroach this OP post
Is by beliving.
I am Jacob, and Esau
and we have this sort of twin thing where we both
experience God Love and Hate at the same time .
God is just showing the nature of true LOVE.
That only the spirit can give defintion to.
Quote from: dajomaco on August 10, 2013, 06:12:57 AM
For me the comfortable way to aprroach this OP post
Is by beliving.
I am Jacob, and Esau
and we have this sort of twin thing where we both
experience God Love and Hate at the same time .
God is just showing the nature of true LOVE.
That only the spirit can give defintion to.
I likes dat
Quote from: lomarah on August 10, 2013, 05:37:29 AM
Yes, Father hates and it is GOOD!
Proverbs 6:16-19
These six things the Lord hates,
Yes, seven are an abomination to Him:
A proud look,
A lying tongue,
Hands that shed innocent blood,
A heart that devises wicked plans,
Feet that are swift in running to evil,
A false witness who speaks lies,
And one who sows discord among brethren.
Amen!
Lomarah, :HeartThrob: why would God hate to ones he fashioned that way? Could it be that Father is using these words as an example for us as how not to act? Could it be that those who do act this way not of their will but Fathers are there for us to LOVE :HeartThrob:
This would fit well with the two greatest commandments of Loving Father First and everyone else as we love ourselves.
I personally feel very uncomfortable being commanded to love everyone whilst Father hates whomever he wants. (Not that he cannot do what he wants)
The following is one of my most dearest scriptures :HeartThrob:
Rom 1:20 For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.
Dear Lomarah, I see nothing even slightly resembling HATE in nature.
I think it is time I let this one go :HeartThrob: We can only know what we are given to know and I sure as heck never want to burn a bridge. All you wonderful people are way to dear to me. :HeartThrob:
Love Julie
Quote from: eaglesway on August 10, 2013, 06:11:24 AM
In the KJV it says, "Jacob I loved and Esau I hated".
Did God "hate" Esau? I don't think God hates anyone. "hate" is an English word, that in the times the KJV was written meant to reject, and did not always mean to bitterly despise. God is light and in Him is no darkness at all. There is no hatred in God for any person. Why would God hate what He Himself created. God rejects the works of the wicked, as well as their words and the attitudes of their hearts, but His rejection is the kolassis that is the flip side of His grace because it leads us inexorably there, to bow at His feet. "Sit thou at My right hand until I make all of your adversaries a footstool for your feet."
The anger of the Lord endures but for a moment, His tender mercies endure forever.
Hate is an incendiary word in our time, and we need, imo, to use it very carefully when referencing God, who hates no one, but rejects the imperfect works of the self-centered, be they unbeliever or "Christian", and burns them up in the fire/light/love of His intense presence until nothing is left but humility and the glorious freedom of love and forgiveness.
Esau was rejected because he traded his birthright for a bowl of soup. Jacob was loved because in the midst of his unrighteousness he hungered for God, sought out His plan and valued the gift of God's favor.
God, as far as I can see in the scriptures has never shown anger at anyone, except those who abuse power, those who poison the truth and those who are predators of other persons- but that is just my opinon :o), I am just throwin it into the mix.
Great points EaglesWay :HeartThrob:
Love Julie
My dearest Julie I have told you before and I'll say it again that you will never burn bridges with me and you have a friend for life. :HeartThrob:
My point was that our Father hates sin. He hates all those things that harm us, the apples of His eye. (And by the apples of His eye I mean ALL of humanity.) Think for example of an earthly father finding out that his young one was harmed or killed by some senseless act of violence... he is going to hate the sin that caused his little one to hurt.
Who are the ones who steal, kill and destroy... who are the ones that father hates... are they the ones in bondage and taken captive to do a will that is not their own (humanity)?
Julie we are basically on the same page. I just didn't explain my post well enough.
Sometimes I have hated the way my children have acted. I hate the way some people act to this day..
I hate the way I have acted at times,to!
. I hte contention,murder..and theiving too. I detest
such behaviour..and reject it. I don't like it. It does not please me..nor make me cntent happy at peace
or agree wwith my concept of 'rightness' It falls far short of LOVE..of which I have found,I prefer
highly and value...I have found loving behaviour makes me happy and brings me joy and contentment.
I have 'tasted' what is of God and found it 'good' I hve lso tasted what is not of God and found it
'bitter' I know what I prefer,what is my desire..and God does too. and grants the desires of the
'righteous'
But He has also said 'to keep putting up with one another in Love' for nothing trys love like such
behaviour. He haas aalso told us that things/behaviour would deteriorate in these days...and that
the LOVE of the greater number would 'cool' becoz of that.[increasing of lawlessness/bad behaviour]
Now the whole creation GROANS becoz of such things..pain,suffering and misery of man and creature
and God.
Good and evil...there is a clear distinction to be made one from another. We taste both in this realm
socially,physiclly,emotinally and spiritually. Taste nd see that God is good..".you can not serve two Masters
either you would hate the one and love the other,or he will be devoted to one and despise the oother"
How many of you mothers have found your generally sunny dispositioned child....becoming intractible
fussy,irritable and generally imposible in their behaviour..and said...'he must be over tired or
coming down with something?' Sure enough..the child needed rest or come down sick.......
well...the saints were wore out..and sin-sickness hs increased.The whole creation is groaning.......
and awaaits deliverance from this body undergoing this deaath
:2thumbs: :2thumbs: :2thumbs: YES. :iagree: :goodpost:
Amen, Sheila.
Gen 27:41 And Esau hated Jacob H7852 properly to lurk for, that is, persecute: - hate, oppose self against.
Gen 50:15 And when Joseph's brethren saw that their father was dead, they said, Joseph will peradventure hate us, H7852 properly to lurk for, that is, persecute: - hate, oppose self against.
Lev 19:17 Thou shalt not hate thy brother in thine heart H8130 to hate (personally): - enemy, foe, (be) hate (-ful, -r), odious, X utterly.
Mal 1:3 And I hated Esau H8130 to hate (personally): - enemy, foe, (be) hate (-ful, -r), odious, X utterly.
Luk 14:26 If any man come to me, and hate not G3404 to detest (especially to persecute); by extension to love less: - hate (-ful).
Rom 7:15 ........... but what I hate, that do I. G3404 to detest (especially to persecute); by extension to love less: - hate (-ful).
1Jn 3:13 Marvel not, my brethren, if the world hate you. G3404 to detest (especially to persecute); by extension to love less: - hate (-ful).
Rev 2:15 So hast thou also them that hold the doctrine of the Nicolaitans, which thing I hate. G3404 to detest (especially to persecute); by extension to love less: - hate (-ful).
Isa 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
Now I try, by the grace of the Lord not to hate, even though at times the word comes blurting from my mouth, and I feel bad that it did. I pray that hate will stay out of my heart.
In my opinion, with these words, Isa. 45:7, the Lord also brought the attribute of hate into exsistance. So either Jesus in Luke 14:26 did not mean what He said or He did.
It's been said you can put lipstick on a pig, but it's still a pig. I don't like the word hate especially the way it is said in Luke. I cannot phantom the Lord hating, but the Lord
hated Esau, whether it was what Esau represented or Esau the man, HE hated. Hate had to have come from somewhere and it has a meaning and definition.
Man can hate in all 5 senses, man can also love in all 5 senses, love and hate are real and the Lord and Creator brought hate into use without saying the word hate, in Gen. 4:8 in the form of jealousy and murder.
I don't like the idea or thought and I must agree will all of you who posted, and posted well, on how to swerve around the meaning, but Jesus did say it. The Nicolaitans are hated, the world will hate us, Paul hated what he did.
For me, in my opinion trying to explain hate and what it means in Luke, is right up there with me attempting to tell someone what "spirit" is.
Pro 5:1 My son! to my wisdom give attention, To mine understanding incline thine ear,
I want and desire to love and not hate, but hate is. :HeartThrob: :dsunny:
Of course it does, just not in the heart of God. :o)
Quote from: micah7:9 on August 10, 2013, 06:08:08 PM
Gen 27:41 And Esau hated Jacob H7852 properly to lurk for, that is, persecute: - hate, oppose self against.
Gen 50:15 And when Joseph's brethren saw that their father was dead, they said, Joseph will peradventure hate us, H7852 properly to lurk for, that is, persecute: - hate, oppose self against.
Lev 19:17 Thou shalt not hate thy brother in thine heart H8130 to hate (personally): - enemy, foe, (be) hate (-ful, -r), odious, X utterly.
Mal 1:3 And I hated Esau H8130 to hate (personally): - enemy, foe, (be) hate (-ful, -r), odious, X utterly.
Luk 14:26 If any man come to me, and hate not G3404 to detest (especially to persecute); by extension to love less: - hate (-ful).
Rom 7:15 ........... but what I hate, that do I. G3404 to detest (especially to persecute); by extension to love less: - hate (-ful).
1Jn 3:13 Marvel not, my brethren, if the world hate you. G3404 to detest (especially to persecute); by extension to love less: - hate (-ful).
Rev 2:15 So hast thou also them that hold the doctrine of the Nicolaitans, which thing I hate. G3404 to detest (especially to persecute); by extension to love less: - hate (-ful).
Isa 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
Now I try, by the grace of the Lord not to hate, even though at times the word comes blurting from my mouth, and I feel bad that it did. I pray that hate will stay out of my heart.
In my opinion, with these words, Isa. 45:7, the Lord also brought the attribute of hate into exsistance. So either Jesus in Luke 14:26 did not mean what He said or He did.
It's been said you can put lipstick on a pig, but it's still a pig. I don't like the word hate especially the way it is said in Luke. I cannot phantom the Lord hating, but the Lord
hated Esau, whether it was what Esau represented or Esau the man, HE hated. Hate had to have come from somewhere and it has a meaning and definition.
Man can hate in all 5 senses, man can also love in all 5 senses, love and hate are real and the Lord and Creator brought hate into use without saying the word hate, in Gen. 4:8 in the form of jealousy and murder.
I don't like the idea or thought and I must agree will all of you who posted, and posted well, on how to swerve around the meaning, but Jesus did say it. The Nicolaitans are hated, the world will hate us, Paul hated what he did.
For me, in my opinion trying to explain hate and what it means in Luke, is right up there with me attempting to tell someone what "spirit" is.
Pro 5:1 My son! to my wisdom give attention, To mine understanding incline thine ear,
I want and desire to love and not hate, but hate is. :HeartThrob: :dsunny:
See the attachment about "spirit" from the Concordant Literal New Testament Keyword Concordance.
[attachment deleted by admin]
Quote from: Tom on August 10, 2013, 07:32:32 PM
Quote from: micah7:9 on August 10, 2013, 06:08:08 PM
Gen 27:41 And Esau hated Jacob H7852 properly to lurk for, that is, persecute: - hate, oppose self against.
Gen 50:15 And when Joseph's brethren saw that their father was dead, they said, Joseph will peradventure hate us, H7852 properly to lurk for, that is, persecute: - hate, oppose self against.
Lev 19:17 Thou shalt not hate thy brother in thine heart H8130 to hate (personally): - enemy, foe, (be) hate (-ful, -r), odious, X utterly.
Mal 1:3 And I hated Esau H8130 to hate (personally): - enemy, foe, (be) hate (-ful, -r), odious, X utterly.
Luk 14:26 If any man come to me, and hate not G3404 to detest (especially to persecute); by extension to love less: - hate (-ful).
Rom 7:15 ........... but what I hate, that do I. G3404 to detest (especially to persecute); by extension to love less: - hate (-ful).
1Jn 3:13 Marvel not, my brethren, if the world hate you. G3404 to detest (especially to persecute); by extension to love less: - hate (-ful).
Rev 2:15 So hast thou also them that hold the doctrine of the Nicolaitans, which thing I hate. G3404 to detest (especially to persecute); by extension to love less: - hate (-ful).
Isa 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
Now I try, by the grace of the Lord not to hate, even though at times the word comes blurting from my mouth, and I feel bad that it did. I pray that hate will stay out of my heart.
In my opinion, with these words, Isa. 45:7, the Lord also brought the attribute of hate into exsistance. So either Jesus in Luke 14:26 did not mean what He said or He did.
It's been said you can put lipstick on a pig, but it's still a pig. I don't like the word hate especially the way it is said in Luke. I cannot phantom the Lord hating, but the Lord
hated Esau, whether it was what Esau represented or Esau the man, HE hated. Hate had to have come from somewhere and it has a meaning and definition.
Man can hate in all 5 senses, man can also love in all 5 senses, love and hate are real and the Lord and Creator brought hate into use without saying the word hate, in Gen. 4:8 in the form of jealousy and murder.
I don't like the idea or thought and I must agree will all of you who posted, and posted well, on how to swerve around the meaning, but Jesus did say it. The Nicolaitans are hated, the world will hate us, Paul hated what he did.
For me, in my opinion trying to explain hate and what it means in Luke, is right up there with me attempting to tell someone what "spirit" is.
Pro 5:1 My son! to my wisdom give attention, To mine understanding incline thine ear,
I want and desire to love and not hate, but hate is. :HeartThrob: :dsunny:
See the attachment about "spirit" from the Concordant Literal New Testament Keyword Concordance.
What am I looking for?
Quote from: eaglesway on August 10, 2013, 07:04:51 PM
Of course it does, just not in the heart of God. :o)
"Of course it does...."?
Quote from: micah7:9 on August 10, 2013, 07:45:51 PM
Quote from: Tom on August 10, 2013, 07:32:32 PM
Quote from: micah7:9 on August 10, 2013, 06:08:08 PM
Gen 27:41 And Esau hated Jacob H7852 properly to lurk for, that is, persecute: - hate, oppose self against.
Gen 50:15 And when Joseph's brethren saw that their father was dead, they said, Joseph will peradventure hate us, H7852 properly to lurk for, that is, persecute: - hate, oppose self against.
Lev 19:17 Thou shalt not hate thy brother in thine heart H8130 to hate (personally): - enemy, foe, (be) hate (-ful, -r), odious, X utterly.
Mal 1:3 And I hated Esau H8130 to hate (personally): - enemy, foe, (be) hate (-ful, -r), odious, X utterly.
Luk 14:26 If any man come to me, and hate not G3404 to detest (especially to persecute); by extension to love less: - hate (-ful).
Rom 7:15 ........... but what I hate, that do I. G3404 to detest (especially to persecute); by extension to love less: - hate (-ful).
1Jn 3:13 Marvel not, my brethren, if the world hate you. G3404 to detest (especially to persecute); by extension to love less: - hate (-ful).
Rev 2:15 So hast thou also them that hold the doctrine of the Nicolaitans, which thing I hate. G3404 to detest (especially to persecute); by extension to love less: - hate (-ful).
Isa 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
Now I try, by the grace of the Lord not to hate, even though at times the word comes blurting from my mouth, and I feel bad that it did. I pray that hate will stay out of my heart.
In my opinion, with these words, Isa. 45:7, the Lord also brought the attribute of hate into exsistance. So either Jesus in Luke 14:26 did not mean what He said or He did.
It's been said you can put lipstick on a pig, but it's still a pig. I don't like the word hate especially the way it is said in Luke. I cannot phantom the Lord hating, but the Lord
hated Esau, whether it was what Esau represented or Esau the man, HE hated. Hate had to have come from somewhere and it has a meaning and definition.
Man can hate in all 5 senses, man can also love in all 5 senses, love and hate are real and the Lord and Creator brought hate into use without saying the word hate, in Gen. 4:8 in the form of jealousy and murder.
I don't like the idea or thought and I must agree will all of you who posted, and posted well, on how to swerve around the meaning, but Jesus did say it. The Nicolaitans are hated, the world will hate us, Paul hated what he did.
For me, in my opinion trying to explain hate and what it means in Luke, is right up there with me attempting to tell someone what "spirit" is.
Pro 5:1 My son! to my wisdom give attention, To mine understanding incline thine ear,
I want and desire to love and not hate, but hate is. :HeartThrob: :dsunny:
See the attachment about "spirit" from the Concordant Literal New Testament Keyword Concordance.
What am I looking for?
Your words, bro..."attempting to tell someone what "spirit" is"
And I shall put enmity between the woman's seed and the serpents seed.....lest we forget where the hate
come from. Genesis 3;15
Quote from: sheila on August 10, 2013, 08:29:01 PM
And I shall put enmity between the woman's seed and the serpents seed.....lest we forget where the hate
come from. Genesis 3;15
enmity /hatred
Gen 3:15 And I will put
enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.
Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind [is]
enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
Eph 2:15 Having abolished
in his flesh the enmity, the hatred [even] the law of commandments [contained] in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, [so] making peace;
Eph 2:16 And that he might reconcile both unto God
in one body by the cross, having
slain the enmity/hatred thereby:
Jam 4:4 Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is
enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the
enemy of God.
I believe there is a relationship that the Spirit is nurturing in me.
I am allowed to see how much God hates the Flesh of Man.
How much Love he has for me as it is revealed.
A protective Love, a Love that protects me from, my flesh killing me.
It is his hatred for the flesh and his absolute Love for me.
I found both came from his heart.
God said he already killed the flesh so do NOT worry about
the flesh causing you or any one else harm.
Hi daj..Paul struggled with his flesh, he said it was very much at work with him (sin in his flesh). He also said he battled it to get it in submission. He also said to walk after the Spirit rather than the flesh, and seemed to indicate the flesh/sin in the flesh very much injured self or others if left unchecked ("turn over to satan for destruction of flesh/spirit saved.."). Can you help me understand better what you mean by "God said he already killed the flesh"? Thanks.
Quote from: jabcat on August 11, 2013, 02:02:14 AM
Hi daj..Paul struggled with his flesh, he said it was very much at work with him (sin in his flesh). He also said he battled it to get it in submission. He also said to walk after the Spirit rather than the flesh, and seemed to indicate the flesh/sin in the flesh very much injured self or others if left unchecked ("turn over to satan for destruction of flesh/spirit saved.."). Can you help me understand better what you mean by "God said he already killed the flesh"? Thanks.
:thumbsup:
This is also how I believe Jab :thumbsup:, and its a process in this short time to be revealed in each and every one of us as the Father seeks those to worship Him in Spirit and truth
Romans 6 the Body of sin =dead
and the Body of Christ =alive
we certainly do not want to deceieve ourselves into thinking there is no struggle against the sin within , Hebrews 12 3-6
Think of all the hostility he endured from sinful people; then you won't become weary and give up.
Hbr 12:4
After all, you have not yet given your lives in your struggle against sin.
Hbr 12:5 And have you forgotten the encouraging words God spoke to you as his children? He said, "My child, ] don't make light of the LORD's discipline, and don't give up when he corrects you.
Hbr 12:6 For the LORD disciplines those he loves, and he punishes each one he accepts as his child."
Romans 6 disciusses in detail the battles of sin in our own flesh and how we are not to serve sin , but the Lord Jesus Christ ..
What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
Rom 6:2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
Rom 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
Rom 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him
by baptism into death:
that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. Rom 6:5
For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also [in the likeness] of [his] resurrection: Rom 6:6
Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with [him], that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. Rom 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.
Rom 6:8 Now if we be
dead with Christ, we believe that
we shall also live with him: Rom 6:9
Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him. Rom 6:10
For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God. Rom 6:11
Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Rom 6:12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
Rom 6:13 Neither yield ye your members [as] instruments of unrighteousness unto sin:
but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members [as] instruments of righteousness unto God. Rom 6:14
For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
Rom 6:15 ¶
What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid. Rom 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
Rom 6:17
But God be thanked,
that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
Rom 6:18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.
Rom 6:19
I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness.
Rom 6:20 For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness.
Rom 6:21
What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things [is] death. Rom 6:22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.
Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin [is] death;
but the gift of God [is] eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Jesus came in the flesh.
Jesus knew the scriptures.
He knew the flesh could not please God.
His flesh was going to be judged by God
For this reason the gospel was also preached to those who are now dead,
so that, although they might be judged by men in the fleshly realm,
they might live by God in the spiritual realm.
I think Jesus new he was flesh and spirit
and would only choose to be led of the spirit not the flesh.
He would only speak the words of his father.
He was perfect according to the law.
If the flesh was going to make it into the kingdom of God
This was probably the time.
But no instead the flesh was crucified.
Jesus arose through the power of Gods spirit in an immortal body.
It seems we have put off our mortal bodies to receive our immortal
Our spirit ( my spirit) is already in its immortal body.
My flesh is already in its mortal body.
My spirit can communicate and seek comfort from the Holy Spirit
I see my self as spirit, I have a new and powerful vehicle now,
in which to explore the vast and beauty of his kingdom.
I would not want any one here think I was posting doctrine.
I like to think of them as fanciful thinking
Or better Hopeful thinking.
God said he already killed the flesh so do NOT worry about
the flesh causing you or any one else harm.
QuoteOur spirit ( my spirit) is already in its immortal body.
:iagree:
QuoteFor this reason the gospel was also preached to those who are now dead,
so that, although they might be judged by men in the fleshly realm,
they might live by God in the spiritual realm.
:HeartThrob: I agree with you in these Bro Daj
but Jesus was sinnless and perfect Lamb of God , His flesh was the same body prepared for death
as ours is also as good as dead
Wherefore when he comes into the world, he said
, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me: Hbr 10:6 In
burnt offerings and [sacrifices] for sin thou hast had no pleasure.
Hbr 10:7 Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.
Hbr 10:8 Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and [offering] for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure [therein];
which are offered by the law;
Hbr 10:9 Then said he,
Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second. Hbr 10:10
By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once [for all].
Romans 8:2 For we know that the whole creation groans and suffers the pains of childbirth together until now. 23 And not only this, but also we ourselves, having the first fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our body. 24 For in hope we have been saved, but hope that is seen is not hope; for who hopes for what he already sees? 25 But if we hope for what we do not see, with perseverance we wait eagerly for it.
1Corinthians 5:1 For we know that if [a]the earthly tent which is our house is torn down, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. 2 For indeed in this house we groan, longing to be clothed with our dwelling from heaven, 3 inasmuch as we, having put it on, will not be found naked. 4 For indeed while we are in this tent, we groan, being burdened, because we do not want to be unclothed but to be clothed, so that what is mortal will be swallowed up by life. 5 Now He who prepared us for this very purpose is God, who gave to us the Spirit as a pledge(down payment).
Ephesians 1:13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is given as a pledge of our inheritance(see Romans 8:23), with a view to the redemption of God's own possession, to the praise of His glory.
I hate that there are some in my family who won't let me give them the Love
I believed I recieved freely from the holy Spirit as a gift a regifting gift.
Quote from: dajomaco on August 12, 2013, 01:54:28 AM
I hate that there are some in my family who won't let me give them the Love
I believed I recieved freely from the holy Spirit as a gift a regifting gift.
:gimmefive: :LH: :HeartThrob:
Quote from: jbertonbounds on August 08, 2013, 04:49:20 AM
Luke 14:26 - If anyone comes to me and does not hate his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be my disciple. [ESV]
The word hate here is translated from miseō [G3404]
1) to hate, pursue with hatred, detest
2) to be hated, detested
Is this a poor translation of the word miseo?
Or am I just not getting it?
:dontknow: :Chinscratch: :dunno2:
Plz read this: http://tentmaker.org/forum/christian-life/the-new-testament-was-written-in-hebrew-(not-greek)/msg136453/#msg136453