Did Jesus really say to hate my family?

[jbertonbounds]

Luke 14:26 - If anyone comes to me and does not hate his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be my disciple. [ESV]

The word hate here is translated from miseō [G3404]
1) to hate, pursue with hatred, detest
2) to be hated, detested

Is this a poor translation of the word miseo?
Or am I just not getting it?

:dontknow: :Chinscratch: :dunno2:

[Tom]

Luke 14:26 - If anyone comes to me and does not hate his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be my disciple. [ESV]

The word hate here is translated from miseō [G3404]
1) to hate, pursue with hatred, detest
2) to be hated, detested

Is this a poor translation of the word miseo?
Or am I just not getting it?

:dontknow: :Chinscratch: :dunno2:

It's in the context of caring more about family than the Lord is not cool. Compare Deuteronomy 13:6-11, 33:9; Matthew 10:37-38; Revelation 12:11. Matthew 10:37 says it better. See the attachment.

[attachment deleted by admin]

[JulieTang84]

 :HeartThrob:  I have a slightly different take on this.

One cannot have total Love for Father and Christ, WITHOUT having total love for family. Once Father has opened the flood gates of true love, there is no one not to love.  :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob:

LOVE is complete Appreciation for all. :HeartThrob: 
So it is impossible to HATE your family. Jesus KNEW this  :girlheart:

Love Julie :HeartThrob:

[Tom]

Right, I think the verse should be considered in context to better understand what Christ intended to communicate. Matthew 5:44 and Luke 6:27 say to even love your enemies.

12 Now He said to him also who has invited Him, "Whenever you may be making a luncheon or a dinner, do not be summoning your friends, nor yet your brothers, nor yet your relatives, nor yet rich neighbors, lest at some time they also should be inviting you in return, and repayment may come to you.
13 But, whenever you may be making a reception, invite the poor, the cripples, the lame, the blind,
14 and happy will you be, for they have nothing to repay you, for it will be repaid you in the resurrection of the just."
15 Now hearing these things, someone of those lying back at table with Him, said to Him, "Happy is he who will be eating bread in the kingdom of God!"
16 Now He said to him, "A certain man made a great dinner, and invites many.
17 And he dispatches his slave at the dinner hour to say to those invited, 'Come, for already, it is ready!'
18 And they all begin, from one motive, to make excuse. The first said to him, 'I buy a field, and I have felt the necessity of coming out to see it. I am asking you to have me excused.'
19 And a different one said, 'I buy five yoke of oxen, and I am going to test them. I am asking you to have me excused.'
20 And a different one said, 'I marry a wife, and therefore I can not come.'
21 "And, coming along, the slave reports these things to his lord. Then being indignant, the householder said to his slave, 'Come out quickly into the squares and streets of the city, and lead in here the poor, and cripples, and blind, and lame.'
22 "And the slave said to him, 'Lord, what you enjoin is done, and still there is place.'
23 And the lord said to the slave, 'Come out into the roads and stone dikes, and compel them to enter, that my house may be crammed.
24 For I am saying to you that not one of those men who are invited shall be tasting of my dinner.'"
25 Now vast throngs went together with Him. And, being turned, He said to them,
26 "If anyone is coming to Me and is not hating his father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, and still more his soul besides, he can not be My disciple.
27 And anyone who is not bearing his cross and coming after Me, can not be My disciple." (Luke 14:12-27)

43 "You hear that it was declared, 'You shall be loving your associate' and you shall be hating your enemy.
44 Yet I am saying to you, Love your enemies, and pray for those who are persecuting you,
45 so that you may become sons of your Father Who is in the heavens, for He causes His sun to rise on the wicked and the good, and makes it rain on the just and the unjust." (Matthew 5:43-45)

27 "But to you, who are hearing, am I saying: Love your enemies. Be doing ideally to those who are hating you.
28 Bless those who are cursing you. Pray concerning those who are traducing you." (Luke 6:27,28)

It's always best to try to consider a verse in context to help understand the true meaning. Christ lost followers who couldn't understand the spiritual significance of what he was saying sometimes.

51 "I am the living Bread which descends out of heaven. If anyone should be eating of this Bread, he shall be living for the eon. Now the Bread also, which I shall be giving for the sake of the life of the world, is My flesh."
52 The Jews, then, fought with one another, saying, "How then can this one give us his flesh to eat?"
53 Jesus, then, said to them, "Verily, verily, I am saying to you, If you should not be eating the flesh of the Son of Mankind and drinking His blood, you have no eonian life in yourselves." (John 6:51-53)

59 These things He said, teaching in a synagogue in Capernaum.
60 Many of His disciples, then, hearing it, said, "Hard is this saying! Who can hear it?"
61 Now Jesus, being aware in Himself that His disciples are murmuring concerning this, said to them, "This is snaring you?
62 If, then, you should be beholding the Son of Mankind ascending where He was formerly -- ?
63 The Spirit is that which is vivifying. The flesh is not benefiting anything. The declarations which I have spoken to you are spirit and are life.
64 But there are some of you who are not believing." For Jesus had perceived from the beginning who those are who are not believing, and who it is that gives Him up.
65 And He said, "Therefore have I declared to you that no one can be coming to Me if it should not be given him of the Father."
66 At this, then, many of His disciples came away, dropping behind, and walked no longer with Him.
67 Jesus, then, said to the twelve, "Not you also are wanting to go away!"
68 Simon Peter answered Him, "Lord, to whom shall we come away? Declarations of life eonian hast Thou!
69 And we believe and know that Thou art the Holy One of God."
70 Jesus answered and said to them, "Do not I choose you, the twelve, and one of you is an adversary?"
71 Now He said it of Judas, son of Simon Iscariot, for this man was about to give Him up, being one of the twelve. (John 6:59-71)

[JulieTang84]

Please forgive my ignorance dearTom, but do you agree with my understanding?

I just got lost that's all  :HeartThrob:

Love Julie

[ded2daworld]

IMO, it's simply a comparison. Compared to the love you should have for God, your feelings toward your family would comparitively be hate.-
especially if family interferes with your love for God, as one should hate anything that comes between you and your Lord. :Chinscratch:

[lomarah]

Well, for one thing, Jesus used hyperbole a lot when he spoke to the crowds.

(Hyperbole:  the use of exaggeration as a rhetorical device or figure of speech. It may be used to evoke strong feelings or to create a strong impression...)

Examples: It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven.
                 
And if your right hand subverts you, cut it off, cast it from you, for it is profitable for you that one of your members be lost, and not that your whole body fall into Gehenna.


Even though these sayings can be considered hyperbole when it comes to the physical and literal aspect of them, EVERYTHING He said was spiritual Truth, the Living Word, and the bread from heaven, which needs to be quickened by the Spirit to give us understanding to these things or we will reject them, just as the crowds did when He told them we must "eat His flesh and drink His blood".


All this taken into consideration, is my belief and experience that what Jesus meant here was that if we do not put God and His Living Word FIRST, above ALL else, even despite rejection of family, friends and church members, then it is impossible to be His disciple. How can we follow God if we are not willing to face the rejection of all of those around us? It is impossible. Look at the life of Jesus for proof of that. When we are learning from HIM and following HIS voice and leading we quickly become heretics and psychotics to most everyone. Will we continue to follow Him and share in His sufferings, and "hate" our very flesh life enough to "die" to it? Or will we choose the fleeting approval of man and veer off of the Way to abundant life?

I KNOW MY CHOICE AND I WILL NEVER GO BACK!!!  :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob:

And pretty much everyone on this forum has already made the choice to put His truth first and become a heretic... you are already "hating" your life enough to put His Truth first. WELL DONE!!

[Tom]

Please forgive my ignorance dearTom, but do you agree with my understanding?

I just got lost that's all  :HeartThrob:

Love Julie

Yes, Julie, I think Christ's ultimate message is love for all including God and all your fellow human beings. I was trying to say that the context in which that verse was presented along with the comparison scriptures helped clarify that he was saying if your family, friends, or anybody else doesn't follow him, you have to choose to follow Christ even though we'll suffer persecution because of that decision sometimes the worst of which comes from our family. I used to be the black sheep of my family who now sees that the love of God is more important than church doctrine. I was raised in the Catholic Church that taught me everybody who wasn't Catholic was going to hell including my Methodist mom. That was one of the reasons I started to realize that church was not for me, and I left it when I was a very young man. These days I receive most of my persecution from other church folks who claim to be Christian, but I try to always respond in love because I realize their perception is distorted by their church doctrine. I really believe that God is love, and love being the most powerful force in the universe overcomes all. It is the love that we allow to flow through us to others that is the best witness to those who are trapped in darkness. Sometimes we don't even have to speak the word of God to share that love. The power of God's love will eventually save all of mankind from that darkness. Some of them don't believe that, but it will be impossible to deny when they see the Lord in the light of his love.

[Tom]

IMO, it's simply a comparison. Compared to the love you should have for God, your feelings toward your family would comparitively be hate.-
especially if family interferes with your love for God, as one should hate anything that comes between you and your Lord. :Chinscratch:

Amen, bro.

[Tom]

Well, for one thing, Jesus used hyperbole a lot when he spoke to the crowds.

(Hyperbole:  the use of exaggeration as a rhetorical device or figure of speech. It may be used to evoke strong feelings or to create a strong impression...)

Examples: It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven.
                 
And if your right hand subverts you, cut it off, cast it from you, for it is profitable for you that one of your members be lost, and not that your whole body fall into Gehenna.


Even though these sayings can be considered hyperbole when it comes to the physical and literal aspect of them, EVERYTHING He said was spiritual Truth, the Living Word, and the bread from heaven, which needs to be quickened by the Spirit to give us understanding to these things or we will reject them, just as the crowds did when He told them we must "eat His flesh and drink His blood".


All this taken into consideration, is my belief and experience that what Jesus meant here was that if we do not put God and His Living Word FIRST, above ALL else, even despite rejection of family, friends and church members, then it is impossible to be His disciple. How can we follow God if we are not willing to face the rejection of all of those around us? It is impossible. Look at the life of Jesus for proof of that. When we are learning from HIM and following HIS voice and leading we quickly become heretics and psychotics to most everyone. Will we continue to follow Him and share in His sufferings, and "hate" our very flesh life enough to "die" to it? Or will we choose the fleeting approval of man and veer off of the Way to abundant life?

I KNOW MY CHOICE AND I WILL NEVER GO BACK!!!  :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob:

And pretty much everyone on this forum has already made the choice to put His truth first and become a heretic... you are already "hating" your life enough to put His Truth first. WELL DONE!!

Amen, sister.

[JulieTang84]

All great comments so far, but so much talk about hate.  :sigh:


Where Love is Hate cannot be, for what association has light with darkness? 2Cor 6:14


Mat 22:37   Jesus replied: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.'

God Fitst :HeartThrob:

Mat 22:38   This is the first and greatest commandment.
Mat 22:39   And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'

And EVERYONE including Family Members as OURSELF    :HeartThrob:

But are we to love ourselves, what is there to love. REALLY?    A whole lot   :dsunny:

Psa 139:13       For you created my inmost being; you knit me together in my mother's womb.
Psa 139:14   I praise you because I am fearfully and wonderfully made; your works are wonderful, I know that full well.
Psa 139:15   My frame was not hidden from you when I was made in the secret place, when I was woven together in the depths of the earth.
Psa 139:16   Your eyes saw my unformed body; all the days ordained for me were written in your book before one of them came to be.

Father, I do praise you. Life is precious  :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob:

So, the question is: Who are we to hate our bodies?

1Cr 6:19   Do you not know that your bodies are temples of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own;  :HeartThrob:

You see loved ones here and everywhere, I cannot hate my body and neither can I hate anyone. Period.

Lomarah you said it best:   :HeartThrob: Hyperbole for if taken verbatim it smacks in the face, Love.

1 Cor 13:4-7    Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.

Anyone born of the Spirit is no longer their own. WOW!!!  :HeartThrob:

Just where I am......

Love Julie

[eaglesway]

One thing that often gets missed in this portion of scripture is, "and yea, even his own life, cannot be my disciple".

Jesus is a preist, and His priesthood was sanctified/set apart/enacted by the willing sacrifice of His own life for the will of His Father and the joy that was set before Him was the restoration of the whole creation.

The verses are about discipleship and self sacrifice.....not about hating anyone. Do you love your mother or father or children or spouse enough to release them to God and put Jesus first is more the meaning, for instance.......

How can God, who so loved you that He gave His only begotten son for you, desire that you hate yourself?

But the issue Jesus is making is not about simply believing in Him. It is about becoming a disciple. Jesus love His mother so much that in His last breathes on the cross He made provision for her. But during His ministry, His earthly preisthood, He did not let her interfere with the purpose of the Father, nor did He let His love for her restrain Him in anway from doing the will of God.

So perhaps a paraphrase like, "If you would be my disciple, follow in my footsteps, join this preisthood, you must choose your submission to me above everything and everyone that you count precious in your life, and even your very own life."

No greater love has a man than this- to lay down his life for his friends. In this context, we lay down our lives for our friends by placing submission to Christ above everything, becoming ministers of reconciliation....even when they do not understand and sometimes hates us for it.  Of course this comes with a great obligation and responsibility- that we be honest with ourselves and with God- because I hav know so-called disciples that treat others roughly and irresponsibly and justify it by those very verses that ought to teach them to love as Christ loved- placing the Father first(the two great commandments) and laying down His life for His friends.

:2c:

[jbertonbounds]

Well, for one thing, Jesus used hyperbole a lot when he spoke to the crowds.

(Hyperbole:  the use of exaggeration as a rhetorical device or figure of speech. It may be used to evoke strong feelings or to create a strong impression...)

Examples: It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven.
                 
And if your right hand subverts you, cut it off, cast it from you, for it is profitable for you that one of your members be lost, and not that your whole body fall into Gehenna.


Even though these sayings can be considered hyperbole when it comes to the physical and literal aspect of them, EVERYTHING He said was spiritual Truth, the Living Word, and the bread from heaven, which needs to be quickened by the Spirit to give us understanding to these things or we will reject them, just as the crowds did when He told them we must "eat His flesh and drink His blood".


All this taken into consideration, is my belief and experience that what Jesus meant here was that if we do not put God and His Living Word FIRST, above ALL else, even despite rejection of family, friends and church members, then it is impossible to be His disciple. How can we follow God if we are not willing to face the rejection of all of those around us? It is impossible. Look at the life of Jesus for proof of that. When we are learning from HIM and following HIS voice and leading we quickly become heretics and psychotics to most everyone. Will we continue to follow Him and share in His sufferings, and "hate" our very flesh life enough to "die" to it? Or will we choose the fleeting approval of man and veer off of the Way to abundant life?

I KNOW MY CHOICE AND I WILL NEVER GO BACK!!!  :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob:

And pretty much everyone on this forum has already made the choice to put His truth first and become a heretic... you are already "hating" your life enough to put His Truth first. WELL DONE!!

Thanx, Lomarah, this really helped! :thumbsup:

[Tom]

One thing that often gets missed in this portion of scripture is, "and yea, even his own life, cannot be my disciple".

Jesus is a preist, and His priesthood was sanctified/set apart/enacted by the willing sacrifice of His own life for the will of His Father and the joy that was set before Him was the restoration of the whole creation.

The verses are about discipleship and self sacrifice.....not about hating anyone. Do you love your mother or father or children or spouse enough to release them to God and put Jesus first is more the meaning, for instance.......

How can God, who so loved you that He gave His only begotten son for you, desire that you hate yourself?

But the issue Jesus is making is not about simply believing in Him. It is about becoming a disciple. Jesus love His mother so much that in His last breathes on the cross He made provision for her. But during His ministry, His earthly preisthood, He did not let her interfere with the purpose of the Father, nor did He let His love for her restrain Him in anway from doing the will of God.

So perhaps a paraphrase like, "If you would be my disciple, follow in my footsteps, join this preisthood, you must choose your submission to me above everything and everyone that you count precious in your life, and even your very own life."

No greater love has a man than this- to lay down his life for his friends. In this context, we lay down our lives for our friends by placing submission to Christ above everything, becoming ministers of reconciliation....even when they do not understand and sometimes hates us for it.  Of course this comes with a great obligation and responsibility- that we be honest with ourselves and with God- because I hav know so-called disciples that treat others roughly and irresponsibly and justify it by those very verses that ought to teach them to love as Christ loved- placing the Father first(the two great commandments) and laying down His life for His friends.

:2c:

Amen, brother.

[jbertonbounds]

All great comments so far, but so much talk about hate.  :sigh:


Where Love is Hate cannot be, for what association has light with darkness? 2Cor 6:14


Mat 22:37   Jesus replied: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.'

God Fitst :HeartThrob:

Mat 22:38   This is the first and greatest commandment.
Mat 22:39   And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'

And EVERYONE including Family Members as OURSELF    :HeartThrob:

But are we to love ourselves, what is there to love. REALLY?    A whole lot   :dsunny:

Psa 139:13       For you created my inmost being; you knit me together in my mother's womb.
Psa 139:14   I praise you because I am fearfully and wonderfully made; your works are wonderful, I know that full well.
Psa 139:15   My frame was not hidden from you when I was made in the secret place, when I was woven together in the depths of the earth.
Psa 139:16   Your eyes saw my unformed body; all the days ordained for me were written in your book before one of them came to be.

Father, I do praise you. Life is precious  :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob:

So, the question is: Who are we to hate our bodies?

1Cr 6:19   Do you not know that your bodies are temples of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own;  :HeartThrob:

You see loved ones here and everywhere, I cannot hate my body and neither can I hate anyone. Period.

Lomarah you said it best:   :HeartThrob: Hyperbole for if taken verbatim it smacks in the face, Love.

1 Cor 13:4-7    Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.

Anyone born of the Spirit is no longer their own. WOW!!!  :HeartThrob:

Just where I am......

Love Julie

Such good points about love, Julie.  Thanks.

[JulieTang84]

Amen Eaglesway. Your last paragraph says it all. :HeartThrob:

With Fathers love in our hearts there is no justification for anything but love.  :HeartThrob:

It's important that we dont lose sight of the forest for the trees.

Love Julie :dsunny:

[jbertonbounds]

One thing that often gets missed in this portion of scripture is, "and yea, even his own life, cannot be my disciple".


I noticed this "even his own life" when I was studying this last night.  It does help focus on the context of this matter.

Jesus is a preist, and His priesthood was sanctified/set apart/enacted by the willing sacrifice of His own life for the will of His Father and the joy that was set before Him was the restoration of the whole creation.

The verses are about discipleship and self sacrifice.....not about hating anyone. Do you love your mother or father or children or spouse enough to release them to God and put Jesus first is more the meaning, for instance.......

How can God, who so loved you that He gave His only begotten son for you, desire that you hate yourself?

But the issue Jesus is making is not about simply believing in Him. It is about becoming a disciple. Jesus love His mother so much that in His last breathes on the cross He made provision for her. But during His ministry, His earthly preisthood, He did not let her interfere with the purpose of the Father, nor did He let His love for her restrain Him in anway from doing the will of God.

So perhaps a paraphrase like, "If you would be my disciple, follow in my footsteps, join this preisthood, you must choose your submission to me above everything and everyone that you count precious in your life, and even your very own life."

I like your paraphrase.

No greater love has a man than this- to lay down his life for his friends. In this context, we lay down our lives for our friends by placing submission to Christ above everything, becoming ministers of reconciliation....even when they do not understand and sometimes hates us for it.  Of course this comes with a great obligation and responsibility- that we be honest with ourselves and with God- because I hav know so-called disciples that treat others roughly and irresponsibly and justify it by those very verses that ought to teach them to love as Christ loved- placing the Father first(the two great commandments) and laying down His life for His friends.

:2c:

[jbertonbounds]

Perhaps the best way to understand this is to consider elements of both views on this verse presented by you all: (1) hyperbole is used here, and (2) comparison of love and devotion for God as compared to that for our families.

I was also thinking that, since he is obviously not saying to literally hate our family members, but rather to hate the sin nature of the humans - in other words, don't hate the humans, hate the sin nature of the humans.  This thought was sparked when I noticed the phrase, "and yea, even his own life."

Perhaps this is one of those key scriptures that was left vague for the seekers to search out - after all, those are the ones to whom God reveals things.  Non-seekers just overlook scriptures like this and say, "Oh well, we'll understand it someday.  What's for lunch?" :banana:

[jbertonbounds]

Amen Eaglesway. Your last paragraph says it all. :HeartThrob:

With Fathers love in our hearts there is no justification for anything but love.  :HeartThrob:

It's important that we dont lose sight of the forest for the trees.

Love Julie :dsunny:

Julie, I think God sent you to us to keep reminding us of his love. :thumbsup:

[micah7:9]

Rom 9:13  according as it hath been written, `Jacob I did love, and Esau I did hate(detest).'

Mal 1:3  Is not Esau Jacob's brother? --an affirmation of Jehovah, And I love Jacob, and Esau I have hated(enemy, foe), And I make his mountains a desolation, And his inheritance for dragons of a wilderness.

Did Jehovah mean hate?

[JulieTang84]

Did Jehovah mean Hate?

Yes he did, but he was not the Loving Father. :HeartThrob:

I think it is now pretty much accepted that Jesus was Jehovah.

"He learned obedience through the things He suffered." (Heb 5:8b)

:eek: Be warned the following is just a wild thought  :HeartThrob:

I have often thought Father might have sent Jesus to Earth to learn something of Love. Like patience, long suffering, slow to anger, etc. All of the traits he displayed while here on Earth, but not so much in the OT.

Of course this is a mute point because we know he emptied himself of all his former being before becoming human.

:HeartThrob: :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob:

Love Julie

[jbertonbounds]

Rom 9:13  according as it hath been written, `Jacob I did love, and Esau I did hate(detest).'

Mal 1:3  Is not Esau Jacob's brother? --an affirmation of Jehovah, And I love Jacob, and Esau I have hated(enemy, foe), And I make his mountains a desolation, And his inheritance for dragons of a wilderness.

Did Jehovah mean hate?

Here again, I believe that the word hate is being used differently from the way we most often use it today.  "For God so loved the world..."  He did not hate Esau the human, he hated what Esau represented.

So yes, he meant what he said, that he hated what Esau symbolized, but he was not saying the same thing we do when we say, "I hate So N. So."

[Tom]

My perspective is that Yahweh (Jehovah-King James) is the name of the living God in Hebrew scripture, and Christ is the word of God become flesh (John 1:14; Revelation 19:13), the image of God (2 Corinthians 4:4; Colossians 1:15), the only-begotten son of God (John 3:16,18; 1 John 4:9), and the Effulgence of His glory and Emblem of His assumption (Hebrews 1:3). I think Yahweh is invisible spirit. So, when Yahweh is manifested in Hebrew scripture, it is by his image who is Yeshua even if he hadn't been born yet as the Christ child.

I think the thing about hate and love is a matter of the relative and the absolute. Although God is love, "out of Him...is all" (Romans 11:36) including hate, but when scripture says that Yahweh hated Esau, I think it is only in a relative sense because Yahweh chose Jacob. This may cause some of you to come down on me, but I believe in the absolute sense that God loves all his creatures including even Satan who is simply doing his job as the Adversary but will one day lose his power (1 Corinthians 15:24). I also think Satan is included in "those on the earth or those in the heavens" (Colossians 1:20) who will be reconciled and be one of all the creatures in which God will be "all in all" (1 Corinthians 15:28). Most Christians don't want to hear that, but I think that is what "reconcile all" means, the entire universe which consists of all creation. So I think in the absolute sense it must be said that God loves all his creatures, but he who actually really does have free will in the absolute sense chooses to be merciful to some and harden others all to display his love in the long run.

I also think there's something to be said about context because that helps it become clearer why scripture said Yahweh hated Esau.

13 According as it is written, "Jacob I love, yet Esau I hate."
14 What, then, shall we be declaring? Not that there is injustice with God? May it not be coming to that!
15 For to Moses He is saying, "I shall be merciful to whomever I may be merciful, and I shall be pitying whomever I may be pitying."
16 Consequently, then, it is not of him who is willing, nor of him who is racing, but of God, the Merciful.
17 For the scripture is saying to Pharaoh that "For this selfsame thing I rouse you up, so that I should be displaying in you My power, and so that My name should be published in the entire earth."
18 Consequently, then, to whom He will, He is merciful, yet whom He will, He is hardening.
19 You will be protesting to me, then, "Why, then, is He still blaming? for who has withstood His intention?"
20 O man! who are you, to be sure, who are answering again to God? That which is molded will not protest to the molder, "Why do you make me thus?"
21 Or has not the potter the right over the clay, out of the same kneading to make one vessel, indeed, for honor, yet one for dishonor?
22 Now if God, wanting to display His indignation and to make His powerful doings known, carries, with much patience, the vessels of indignation, adapted for destruction,
23 it is that He should also be making known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He makes ready before for glory --
24 us, whom He calls also, not only out of the Jews, but out of the nations also. (Romans 9:13-24)

http://concordant.org/expohtml/GodAndChrist/names.html

http://concordant.org/expohtml/GodAndChrist/TheDeityOfGod5.html

[JulieTang84]

Oh Tom you can share your thoughts anytime  :HeartThrob:

Would you believe that I am very much on the same page regarding Esau and for that matter, Satan.

I hope you don't mind if I add a little what Father has shown me.

I am sure that we can all agree that Father is the "Cause" of Everything. We now know that there are galaxies as far away as 100 billion light years.  That is almost an impossible distance to comprehend, as our Sun is 93 million miles away and light just takes around 8 minutes and 20 seconds.

We only know so much. Yes Father has revealed much to us, and certainly he has graced us with a mind to reason and discern beyond our wildest dreams.

We live in our known universe; however, there maybe 100's of bilions of univereses too. Just because Father has made us aware of only one, gives us no reason to rule out any more just because He hasn't told us. This goes with everything. We only know that have only scratched the surface of what there is to know.

Just my thoughts Tom, thank you for yours.  :HeartThrob:

Love Julie

[Tom]

Oh Tom you can share your thoughts anytime  :HeartThrob:

Would you believe that I am very much on the same page regarding Esau and for that matter, Satan.

I hope you don't mind if I add a little what Father has shown me.

I am sure that we can all agree that Father is the "Cause" of Everything. We now know that there are galaxies as far away as 100 billion light years.  That is almost an impossible distance to comprehend, as our Sun is 93 million miles away and light just takes around 8 minutes and 20 seconds.

We only know so much. Yes Father has revealed much to us, and certainly he has graced us with a mind to reason and discern beyond our wildest dreams.

We live in our known universe; however, there maybe 100's of bilions of univereses too. Just because Father has made us aware of only one, gives us no reason to rule out any more just because He hasn't told us. This goes with everything. We only know that have only scratched the surface of what there is to know.

Just my thoughts Tom, thank you for yours.  :HeartThrob:

Love Julie

God bless you, sister.