Did Jesus really say to hate my family?

[jbertonbounds]

Oh Tom you can share your thoughts anytime  :HeartThrob:

Would you believe that I am very much on the same page regarding Esau and for that matter, Satan.

I hope you don't mind if I add a little what Father has shown me.

I am sure that we can all agree that Father is the "Cause" of Everything. We now know that there are galaxies as far away as 100 billion light years.  That is almost an impossible distance to comprehend, as our Sun is 93 million miles away and light just takes around 8 minutes and 20 seconds.

We only know so much. Yes Father has revealed much to us, and certainly he has graced us with a mind to reason and discern beyond our wildest dreams.

We live in our known universe; however, there maybe 100's of bilions of univereses too. Just because Father has made us aware of only one, gives us no reason to rule out any more just because He hasn't told us. This goes with everything. We only know that have only scratched the surface of what there is to know.

Just my thoughts Tom, thank you for yours.  :HeartThrob:

Love Julie

Very interesting thoughts!
:thumbsup: :Chinscratch:

[micah7:9]

Rom 9:13  according as it hath been written, `Jacob I did love, and Esau I did hate(detest).'

Mal 1:3  Is not Esau Jacob's brother? --an affirmation of Jehovah, And I love Jacob, and Esau I have hated(enemy, foe), And I make his mountains a desolation, And his inheritance for dragons of a wilderness.

Did Jehovah mean hate?

Here again, I believe that the word hate is being used differently from the way we most often use it today.  "For God so loved the world..."  He did not hate Esau the human, he hated what Esau represented.

So yes, he meant what he said, that he hated what Esau symbolized, but he was not saying the same thing we do when we say, "I hate So N. So."

I get what you are saying. "For God so loved the world..."  Love is not used differently than how we accept it.
" He did not hate Esau the human, he hated what Esau represented." But He is still hated the same way "..... we do when we say, "I hate So N. So."
Right?
That one line always has caused me pause, "Esau I hated." I am not trying to cause conflict, if love still means what it means and according to Strong's hate still means what it means;
God is love, but He still can hate? There is where I am stuck.......whether He hates what Esau represented, then does or can He hate? :HeartThrob:

So when Jesus said Luk 14:26  If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.
He was speaking of hate= G3404 miseō  (hatred); to detest (especially to persecute); by extension to love less: - hate (-ful).

Or not?

[JulieTang84]

Great questions Micah   :HeartThrob:

As you know Father has given me Love and I am going to try to answer according to Love   :HeartThrob:

Rom 9:13      WhatAs it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
Rom 9:14      What shall we say then? [Is there] unrighteousness with God? God forbid.

Please consider the following:
Psa 139:13       For you created my inmost being; you knit me together in my mother's womb.
Psa 139:14   I praise you because I am fearfully and wonderfully made; your works are wonderful, I know that full well.
Psa 139:15   My frame was not hidden from you when I was made in the secret place, when I was woven together in the depths of the earth.
Psa 139:16   Your eyes saw my unformed body; all the days ordained for me were written in your book before one of them came to be.

Does it makes sense that Father would HATE one of those he so wonderfully made, having ordained all their days before they even came to be?   :HeartThrob:

Isa 64:8   But now, O LORD, thou [art] our father; we [are] the clay, and thou our potter; and we all [are] the work of thy hand.

But we know not all were made for honorable perposes  :sigh:

Rom 9:22       [What] if God, willing to shew [his] wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
Rom 9:23       And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

I sighed because many will judge such as these as if they were responsible; as if they were free to change.

So is this it? Father HATES to ones he formed that way?

Not according to Jesus.   :HeartThrob:

Now it is my understanding that this is key  :girlheart:

Luk 12:48   But the one who does not know and does things deserving punishment will be beaten with few blows......   :HeartThrob:

So, with everything taken into consideration, Father is NOT going to punished (corrected) severely. Not exactly fitting to a person Father supposedly HATE's is it.

So who is it that receives the greatest punishment?

Luke 12:47  "The servant who knows the master's will and does not get ready or does not do what the master wants will be beaten with many blows.
Luke 12: 48 (Continues) ......From everyone who has been given much, much will be demanded; and from the one who has been entrusted with much, much more will be asked.

This so get's glossed over by the Church. The very ones they say Father HATES receive little punishment whilst the ones whom have been given much (and blew it) will receive far greater punishment.

So here we have it, an impossible argument.  :HeartThrob:

Fathers punishes the ones he HATES very little and punishes the ones he LOVES a whole BUNCH!!!!

Who is it He is hating?

Taken with Love, it is a real stretch believing that Father HATES any of his children, knowing that he has taken full responsibility for all their short comings. 

Yet there is more evidence that proves beyond ALL REASON that He does not HATE Esua.

Mat 22:36   "Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?"
Mat 22:37   Jesus replied: " 'Love  :HeartThrob: the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.' [fn]
Mat 22:38   This is the first and greatest commandment.
Mat 22:39   And the second is like it: 'Love  :HeartThrob: your neighbor as yourself.' [fn]
Mat 22:40   All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."

Here we have the TWO GREATEST commandments which speak of nothing But LOVE. Father is LOVE.

Who is going to be the one, knowing all of this, to say: Yes, but God just saying: "Do what I say, not what I do!"

I am saying this with sadness as I sure it will offend  :friendstu: But should anyone truly believes that Father HATES any of his children, BELIEVES WITHOUT QUESTION that Father breaks his own commandments every single day.

It is my hope that perhaps it can be seen that the word "Hate" was just a play on words as was suggested earlier by Lomarah. Father, nor Jesus used anything but SHARP contrasts in their teachings.

With Love, Julie  :HeartThrob:

[jbertonbounds]

HATE
a : intense hostility and aversion usually deriving from fear, anger, or sense of injury
b : extreme dislike or antipathy : loathing

LOVE
a: unselfish loyal and benevolent concern for the good of another: as (1) : the fatherly concern of God for humankind (2) : brotherly concern for others

I thought it would be interesting to throw in these definitions from Webster's Dictionary.
For hate, that's all the definition they had.
For love, that was one of several, but it is the definition (IMO) of God's love.

Notice how the definitions of hate and love (agape love) are NOT opposites.
I have for some time believed that hate and God's love are not necessarily opposites, nor mutually exclusive.
You can hate a person, but still love them with God's love, because God's love takes on more of a verb form - it's an action word, so to speak.
This is the sense in which I conceive of how God hated Esau.
It is the sense in which you may hate a person's actions, personality, what they stand for, how they act, etc - (in other words, their attributes).
I might say I hate that person, but I can agape-love him too, because they are not mutually exclusive.
When he is sick, I can mow his yard.
When he is hungry, I can take him food.
When he is in prison, I can visit.
When he is need, I can provide.
Sound familiar?

God's love is not about how I feel; it's about God's purpose for his creation.
My personal preferences are not part of the equation.

Don't get me wrong, we need to make every effort to help others "feel loved," even if we personally don't like their personal attributes.
If we don't like (or hate) another person's attributes, they don't need to know of our dislike of them.
We need to have a respect for other humans that transcends our own preferences, and hold others in high esteem - they should be important to us!

Remember, God has probably "hated" a lot of the people he created, but he has certainly and clearly demonstrated his love for us! :HeartThrob:

[Tom]

Amen, bro.

[micah7:9]

 :thumbsup: :gimmefive: :Peace2: :HeartThrob: Best I have read, clean, to the point, and true. :dsunny: You read my heart and put my thoughts to words.....thank you :dsunny:

[JulieTang84]

JB wrote

Don't get me wrong, we need to make every effort to help others "feel loved," even if we personally don't like their personal attributes.
If we don't like (or hate) another person's attributes, they don't need to know of our dislike of them.
We need to have a respect for other humans that transcends our own preferences, and hold others in high esteem - they should be important to us!

Remember, God has probably "hated" a lot of the people he created, but he has certainly and clearly demonstrated his love for us!

Still not 100% sure Father can hate, but THANKS, this is beautiful

Love Julie :HeartThrob:

[micah7:9]

Julie, He cannot give us something He does not have. If we have it He made it, He has purpose. I will rest in that.  :HeartThrob:

[JulieTang84]

Julie, He cannot give us something He does not have. If we have it He made it, He has purpose. I will rest in that.  :HeartThrob:

Sounds fair to me  :friendstu: There is nothing left of hate in me. Love bridges everything  :HeartThrob:

[lomarah]

Yes, Father hates and it is GOOD!

Proverbs 6:16-19
These six things the Lord hates,
Yes, seven are an abomination to Him:
A proud look,
A lying tongue,
Hands that shed innocent blood,
A heart that devises wicked plans,
Feet that are swift in running to evil,
A false witness who speaks lies,
And one who sows discord among brethren.

Amen!

[Tom]

Amen

[eaglesway]

In the KJV it says, "Jacob I loved and Esau I hated".

Did God "hate" Esau? I don't think God hates anyone. "hate" is an English word, that in the times the KJV was written meant to reject, and did not always mean to bitterly despise. God is light and in Him is no darkness at all. There is no hatred in God for any person. Why would God hate what He Himself created. God rejects the works of the wicked, as well as their words and the attitudes of their hearts, but His rejection is the kolassis that is the flip side of His grace because it leads us inexorably there, to bow at His feet. "Sit thou at My right hand until I make all of your adversaries a footstool for your feet."

The anger of the Lord endures but for a moment, His tender mercies endure forever.

Hate is an incendiary word in our time, and we need, imo, to use it very carefully when referencing God, who hates no one, but rejects the imperfect works of the self-centered, be they unbeliever or "Christian", and burns them up in the fire/light/love of His intense presence until nothing is left but humility and the glorious freedom of love and forgiveness.

Esau was rejected because he traded his birthright for a bowl of soup. Jacob was loved because in the midst of his unrighteousness he hungered for God, sought out His plan and valued the gift of God's favor.

God, as far as I can see in the scriptures has never shown anger at anyone, except those who abuse power, those who poison the truth and those who are predators of other persons- but that is just my opinon :o), I am just throwin it into the mix.

[dajomaco]

For me the  comfortable way to aprroach this OP post
Is by beliving.
I am Jacob, and Esau
and we have this sort of twin thing where we both
experience God Love and Hate at the same time .
God is just showing the nature of true LOVE.
That only the spirit can give defintion to.

[eaglesway]

For me the  comfortable way to aprroach this OP post
Is by beliving.
I am Jacob, and Esau
and we have this sort of twin thing where we both
experience God Love and Hate at the same time .
God is just showing the nature of true LOVE.
That only the spirit can give defintion to.

I likes dat

[JulieTang84]

Yes, Father hates and it is GOOD!

Proverbs 6:16-19
These six things the Lord hates,
Yes, seven are an abomination to Him:
A proud look,
A lying tongue,
Hands that shed innocent blood,
A heart that devises wicked plans,
Feet that are swift in running to evil,
A false witness who speaks lies,
And one who sows discord among brethren.

Amen!

Lomarah,  :HeartThrob: why would God hate to ones he fashioned that way? Could it be that Father is using these words as an example for us as how not to act? Could it be that those who do act this way not of their will but Fathers are there for us to LOVE  :HeartThrob:

This would fit well with the two greatest commandments of Loving Father First and everyone else as we love ourselves.

I personally feel very uncomfortable being commanded to love everyone whilst Father hates whomever he wants. (Not that he cannot do what he wants)

The following is one of my most dearest scriptures  :HeartThrob:

Rom 1:20   For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.

Dear Lomarah, I see nothing even slightly resembling HATE in nature.

I think it is time I let this one go  :HeartThrob: We can only know what we are given to know and I sure as heck never want to burn a bridge. All you wonderful people are way to dear to me.  :HeartThrob:

Love Julie

[JulieTang84]

In the KJV it says, "Jacob I loved and Esau I hated".

Did God "hate" Esau? I don't think God hates anyone. "hate" is an English word, that in the times the KJV was written meant to reject, and did not always mean to bitterly despise. God is light and in Him is no darkness at all. There is no hatred in God for any person. Why would God hate what He Himself created. God rejects the works of the wicked, as well as their words and the attitudes of their hearts, but His rejection is the kolassis that is the flip side of His grace because it leads us inexorably there, to bow at His feet. "Sit thou at My right hand until I make all of your adversaries a footstool for your feet."

The anger of the Lord endures but for a moment, His tender mercies endure forever.

Hate is an incendiary word in our time, and we need, imo, to use it very carefully when referencing God, who hates no one, but rejects the imperfect works of the self-centered, be they unbeliever or "Christian", and burns them up in the fire/light/love of His intense presence until nothing is left but humility and the glorious freedom of love and forgiveness.

Esau was rejected because he traded his birthright for a bowl of soup. Jacob was loved because in the midst of his unrighteousness he hungered for God, sought out His plan and valued the gift of God's favor.

God, as far as I can see in the scriptures has never shown anger at anyone, except those who abuse power, those who poison the truth and those who are predators of other persons- but that is just my opinon :o), I am just throwin it into the mix.

Great points EaglesWay  :HeartThrob:


Love Julie

[lomarah]

My dearest Julie I have told you before and I'll say it again that you will never burn bridges with me and you have a friend for life.  :HeartThrob:

My point was that our Father hates sin. He hates all those things that harm us, the apples of His eye. (And by the apples of His eye I mean ALL of humanity.) Think for example of an earthly father finding out that his young one was harmed or killed by some senseless act of violence... he is going to hate the sin that caused his little one to hurt.

Who are the ones who steal, kill and destroy... who are the ones that father hates... are they the ones in bondage and taken captive to do a will that is not their own (humanity)?

Julie we are basically on the same page. I just didn't explain my post well enough.

[sheila]

Sometimes I have hated the way my children have acted. I hate the way some people act to this day..

   I hate the way I have acted at times,to!

  . I hte contention,murder..and theiving too. I detest

such behaviour..and reject it. I don't like it. It does not please me..nor make me cntent happy at peace

or agree wwith my concept of 'rightness' It falls far short of LOVE..of which I have found,I prefer

  highly and value...I have found loving behaviour makes me happy and brings me joy and contentment.

   I have 'tasted' what is of God and found it 'good' I hve lso tasted what is not of God and found it

  'bitter'  I know what I prefer,what is my desire..and God does too. and grants the desires of the

  'righteous'

   But He has also said 'to keep putting up with one another in Love' for nothing trys love like such

behaviour.  He haas aalso told us that things/behaviour would deteriorate in these days...and that

the LOVE of the greater number would 'cool' becoz of that.[increasing of lawlessness/bad behaviour]

        Now the whole creation GROANS becoz of such things..pain,suffering and misery of man and creature

and God.

   Good and evil...there is a clear distinction to be made one from another. We taste both in this realm

   socially,physiclly,emotinally and spiritually.   Taste nd see that God is good..".you can not serve two Masters

either you would hate the one and love the other,or he will be devoted to one and despise the oother"


     How many of you mothers have found your generally sunny dispositioned child....becoming intractible

fussy,irritable and generally imposible in their behaviour..and said...'he must be over tired or

coming down with something?'  Sure enough..the child needed rest or come down sick.......

  well...the saints were wore out..and sin-sickness hs increased.The whole creation is groaning.......

  and awaaits deliverance from this body undergoing this deaath

     

[lomarah]

 :2thumbs: :2thumbs: :2thumbs: YES.  :iagree:  :goodpost:

[Tom]

Amen, Sheila.

[micah7:9]

Gen 27:41  And Esau hated Jacob H7852  properly to lurk for, that is, persecute: - hate, oppose self against.
Gen 50:15  And when Joseph's brethren saw that their father was dead, they said, Joseph will peradventure hate us, H7852  properly to lurk for, that is, persecute: - hate, oppose self against.
Lev 19:17  Thou shalt not hate thy brother in thine heart H8130  to hate (personally): - enemy, foe, (be) hate (-ful, -r), odious, X utterly.
Mal 1:3  And I hated Esau H8130  to hate (personally): - enemy, foe, (be) hate (-ful, -r), odious, X utterly.
Luk 14:26  If any man come to me, and hate not G3404  to detest (especially to persecute); by extension to love less: - hate (-ful).
Rom 7:15 ...........  but what I hate, that do I.  G3404  to detest (especially to persecute); by extension to love less: - hate (-ful).
1Jn 3:13  Marvel not, my brethren, if the world hate you.  G3404  to detest (especially to persecute); by extension to love less: - hate (-ful).
Rev 2:15  So hast thou also them that hold the doctrine of the Nicolaitans, which thing I hate.  G3404  to detest (especially to persecute); by extension to love less: - hate (-ful).

Isa 45:7  I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

Now I try, by the grace of the Lord not to hate, even though at times the word comes blurting from my mouth, and I feel bad that it did. I pray that hate will stay out of my heart.
In my opinion, with these words, Isa. 45:7,  the Lord also brought the attribute of hate into exsistance. So either Jesus in Luke 14:26 did not mean what He said or He did.

It's been said you can put lipstick on a pig, but it's still a pig. I don't like the word hate especially the way it is said in Luke. I cannot phantom the Lord hating, but the Lord
hated Esau, whether it was what Esau represented or Esau the man, HE hated. Hate had to have come from somewhere and it has a meaning and definition.
Man can hate in all 5 senses, man can also love in all 5 senses, love and hate are real and the Lord and Creator brought hate into use without saying the word hate, in Gen. 4:8 in the form of jealousy and murder.
I don't like the idea or thought and I must agree will all of you who posted, and posted well, on how to swerve around the meaning, but Jesus did say it. The Nicolaitans are hated, the world will hate us, Paul hated what he did.
For me, in my opinion trying to explain hate and what it means in Luke, is right up there with me attempting to tell someone what "spirit" is.

Pro 5:1  My son! to my wisdom give attention, To mine understanding incline thine ear,

I want and desire to love and not hate, but hate is. :HeartThrob: :dsunny:

[eaglesway]

Of course it does, just not in the heart of God. :o)

[Tom]

Gen 27:41  And Esau hated Jacob H7852  properly to lurk for, that is, persecute: - hate, oppose self against.
Gen 50:15  And when Joseph's brethren saw that their father was dead, they said, Joseph will peradventure hate us, H7852  properly to lurk for, that is, persecute: - hate, oppose self against.
Lev 19:17  Thou shalt not hate thy brother in thine heart H8130  to hate (personally): - enemy, foe, (be) hate (-ful, -r), odious, X utterly.
Mal 1:3  And I hated Esau H8130  to hate (personally): - enemy, foe, (be) hate (-ful, -r), odious, X utterly.
Luk 14:26  If any man come to me, and hate not G3404  to detest (especially to persecute); by extension to love less: - hate (-ful).
Rom 7:15 ...........  but what I hate, that do I.  G3404  to detest (especially to persecute); by extension to love less: - hate (-ful).
1Jn 3:13  Marvel not, my brethren, if the world hate you.  G3404  to detest (especially to persecute); by extension to love less: - hate (-ful).
Rev 2:15  So hast thou also them that hold the doctrine of the Nicolaitans, which thing I hate.  G3404  to detest (especially to persecute); by extension to love less: - hate (-ful).

Isa 45:7  I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

Now I try, by the grace of the Lord not to hate, even though at times the word comes blurting from my mouth, and I feel bad that it did. I pray that hate will stay out of my heart.
In my opinion, with these words, Isa. 45:7,  the Lord also brought the attribute of hate into exsistance. So either Jesus in Luke 14:26 did not mean what He said or He did.

It's been said you can put lipstick on a pig, but it's still a pig. I don't like the word hate especially the way it is said in Luke. I cannot phantom the Lord hating, but the Lord
hated Esau, whether it was what Esau represented or Esau the man, HE hated. Hate had to have come from somewhere and it has a meaning and definition.
Man can hate in all 5 senses, man can also love in all 5 senses, love and hate are real and the Lord and Creator brought hate into use without saying the word hate, in Gen. 4:8 in the form of jealousy and murder.
I don't like the idea or thought and I must agree will all of you who posted, and posted well, on how to swerve around the meaning, but Jesus did say it. The Nicolaitans are hated, the world will hate us, Paul hated what he did.
For me, in my opinion trying to explain hate and what it means in Luke, is right up there with me attempting to tell someone what "spirit" is.

Pro 5:1  My son! to my wisdom give attention, To mine understanding incline thine ear,

I want and desire to love and not hate, but hate is. :HeartThrob: :dsunny:

See the attachment about "spirit" from the Concordant Literal New Testament Keyword Concordance.

[attachment deleted by admin]

[micah7:9]

Gen 27:41  And Esau hated Jacob H7852  properly to lurk for, that is, persecute: - hate, oppose self against.
Gen 50:15  And when Joseph's brethren saw that their father was dead, they said, Joseph will peradventure hate us, H7852  properly to lurk for, that is, persecute: - hate, oppose self against.
Lev 19:17  Thou shalt not hate thy brother in thine heart H8130  to hate (personally): - enemy, foe, (be) hate (-ful, -r), odious, X utterly.
Mal 1:3  And I hated Esau H8130  to hate (personally): - enemy, foe, (be) hate (-ful, -r), odious, X utterly.
Luk 14:26  If any man come to me, and hate not G3404  to detest (especially to persecute); by extension to love less: - hate (-ful).
Rom 7:15 ...........  but what I hate, that do I.  G3404  to detest (especially to persecute); by extension to love less: - hate (-ful).
1Jn 3:13  Marvel not, my brethren, if the world hate you.  G3404  to detest (especially to persecute); by extension to love less: - hate (-ful).
Rev 2:15  So hast thou also them that hold the doctrine of the Nicolaitans, which thing I hate.  G3404  to detest (especially to persecute); by extension to love less: - hate (-ful).

Isa 45:7  I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

Now I try, by the grace of the Lord not to hate, even though at times the word comes blurting from my mouth, and I feel bad that it did. I pray that hate will stay out of my heart.
In my opinion, with these words, Isa. 45:7,  the Lord also brought the attribute of hate into exsistance. So either Jesus in Luke 14:26 did not mean what He said or He did.

It's been said you can put lipstick on a pig, but it's still a pig. I don't like the word hate especially the way it is said in Luke. I cannot phantom the Lord hating, but the Lord
hated Esau, whether it was what Esau represented or Esau the man, HE hated. Hate had to have come from somewhere and it has a meaning and definition.
Man can hate in all 5 senses, man can also love in all 5 senses, love and hate are real and the Lord and Creator brought hate into use without saying the word hate, in Gen. 4:8 in the form of jealousy and murder.
I don't like the idea or thought and I must agree will all of you who posted, and posted well, on how to swerve around the meaning, but Jesus did say it. The Nicolaitans are hated, the world will hate us, Paul hated what he did.
For me, in my opinion trying to explain hate and what it means in Luke, is right up there with me attempting to tell someone what "spirit" is.

Pro 5:1  My son! to my wisdom give attention, To mine understanding incline thine ear,

I want and desire to love and not hate, but hate is. :HeartThrob: :dsunny:

See the attachment about "spirit" from the Concordant Literal New Testament Keyword Concordance.

What am I looking for?

[micah7:9]

Of course it does, just not in the heart of God. :o)

"Of course it does...."?