Tentmaker Forum

Hello,

Please if you know about authentic demon possession please tell me about it.

I have schizophrenia and sometimes I believe it could be a demon, but I do not know so I am confused. I see this little head in me sometimes that looks like myself when I still had a shaved head. Because of the illness or because of the demon I am often experiencing thought problems, ie it's like my thoughts get twisted or out of the blue when I am thinking of God I am forced to think of satan too and it's unsettling. I've also felt sinful about this but usually I think this is not from me so I am innocent here. I also became afraid of knives and seeing people because then I see images of these knives cutting into people in my mind and feel dreadful about it. I've spoken to an evangelical christian about it and she probably prayed about it successfully and I felt like strong and tender feelings of love came to me. But it was like at some point these feelings didn't come through to me fully. And that's where I saw the little head again.

I also have the question, when a man is demon possessed is that the fault of this man or only the fault of the demon and/or satan? I had another evangelical friend once who followed Derek Prince and that teacher spoke much about the mosaic law still being in effect and overall he taught a very strict christianity that was not like UR.

But that little head, it's like it has been with me for ages and I only felt it could be a demon since I talked to that evangelical girl. Previously it seemed like a normal part of me that was connected to my feelings and I felt normal about it. So I think it could also be the result of schizophrenia. I looked through the web for schizophrenia websites and they report such things too, eg some schizos live with voices they cannot avoid and it doesn't seem to be a demon but instead a broken brain. I also feel a bit paranoid about these things like I have too much fear about it and should simply acknowledge that this little head is not real but only a part of my mind that has become confused and damaged from the illness.

The remaining problem would be, my doctor tells me to take much medicine and I do not want because of bad experiences with them. I once took 4 different medicines in the same time and I felt like a zombie and could hardly do my chores where I live. And it did nothing against the little head. So by the end of the last spring I spoke with the doctor and refused 3 of the meds and only take 1 med now that I have been taking since 2003 and which I know doesn't harm me.

The head came to speak to me in 2006 when I was deciding to follow Jesus. I had begun reading in the bible and was joyful and elated and even had a prophetic dream. I was speaking about God, love and mercy to many people and then I had a dream in which I many sweet winegrapes came from my mouth. So I felt in order with Jesus and thought I would dedicate myself to spreading merciful love to all people. That was my religion and I still try to do the same now. But one day in 2006 when I was reading the bible I was coming to the verses about the Unpardonable Sin and then what looked like a naked and brutish man stood behind me and came into me. At the same time I was totally scared and got the thought "I must blaspheme the spirit now". I never did that in my mouth but from them on I had to fight with such thoughts and with being afraid of God. As the years went by the scare subsided and I more or less ignore the thought problems but I wish I could be free of them.

I had another experience, also in 2006, when I was feeling like I had done the Unpardonable Sin and saw another man with me who was dark and spoke in another language that I could not understand. He had what looked like a sharp drill and he drilled it into my forehead. And since that time I have that little head confusing me when I am thinking or leading my thoughts into evil. It's harsh and cruel sometimes.

I had the thought these two beings were evil angels aka demons and the attack with the drill caused the little head to appear in me. So that would be the third version of what could be behind this, not that I have a demon with me but that demons attacked me and damaged my mind somehow and the damage is what causes my thought problems and the little head.

I don't want to go to ET believers about these things. Maybe you have an idea what I could do. I go to church once or twice a month, usually when they serve Communion. I don't feel like i am having awful sins on my back, just some silly masturbation stuff because I have no girlfriend or wife. I am friendly to everyone that I know. I doubt God sometimes but in the same time I am suffering from that doubt and feel like I should not hate it like an evil but instead consider it part of the human suffering that many endure. And I always believe in God again and had visitations from him that I think are his sign that he is sticking it out with me. I don't have any real life UR friends though, thats why I write here sometimes. I've been told where I live from other christians that my atheistic dad who died 6 years ago would be in hell now and could not be with God. But I do not want to believe in them and found bible verses and books and articles like those on tentmaker here that speak about a more merciful God. I believe that the Cross and Resurrection in Christ redeemed all men whether they believe in Christ or not, and faith only works as a recognition of this redemption and reconciliation, and is not actually saving us, it's God's work in our lives that saves us. Basically we are all saved by God's love and grace, and faith is a gift that some have but not all, and so we should boast about Christ and not about our faith.

So please if you can, give me some advice. I do not want to suffer from this crap much longer, most of the time I am calm and can live but it's draining me and I want to be as joyful as other believers.

Thank you in advance.

Daniel

Hi Daniel......in some cases it is something we have done that gave them an opening ....the Holy Spirit has a few necessary things

  that it requires to come dwell in us.because it can not abide in a constantly grieved state. Masturbation[sexual immorality[ idolatry

abstaining from blood[murder/drinking blood/and being not blood guilty to the life of any man/beast,along with eating nothing

strangles[snared/trap] is a requirement for the Holy spirit to dwell in you..and the joy and peace of mind that it brings.


    Masturbation may be the 'normal" in this captive world..but it is not 'normal" and the Holy spirit can not dwell in you along with it.

   Pray the Father for forgiveness..repent and stop doing it to the very best of your ability[I know it appears as a lesser evil than

fornication.] Pray for Holy spirit and strength to resist..if you fall..repent of it immediately and resolve to continue battling it.

Father has power to deliver you from it.......and He always blesses our efforts to do only that which pleases Him.


   Only a demon in a man can Blaspheme against the Holy spirit...it is anti-christ and always seeks to drive the Holy spirit away from you.

  which is your help and healing. it will accuse/condemn you of sinning against the Holy spirit.when actually the demon is doing it.....

  the demon wants you to believe that you are cursed and 'cut off'" from God's forgiveness and healing...He doesn't want God in your

temple..cause he covets God's temple[your house/body] He is Not you..so you showed some insight in this.


   don't listen to the demon..when it puts a 'thought' in your head...rebuke it'"get behind me satan" either mentally or or verbally is at

home or alone..and bring it into captivy/subjection of Christ....Spiritual warfare is tough ..but through His Holy spirit He can enpower

you to take captive your captivity.

   Once it is either bound in your body[inactive] or out...it will oft attempt to get back in and bring 7 more stronger against you in

the way of temptation..but stand in Christ..refuse to touch yourself or do any of the things the Holy spirit has set as necessary to dwell

in you.[and you end up in a worse state]

  we are not under law..but grace..the law was written to bind sin in man's flesh from bringing forth fruit...and was a covenat curse

for disobedience.  Once Grace was given unto man...Israel was to be a blessing to all nations....and curse not...and they have no

right to even 'touch' you But the thing about these 'lawless' ones is they refuse to obey the law themselves..tempt and lead into traps

and snares His people know not the right hand from their left at times.   But God chose the 'weak and foolish' things..namely man

with his weakness in the flesh..and being easily fooled...to put the 'wise" ole serpent and his power to shame.

     

 thought I would share something I found interesting here.......Mental Illness snomed system..for categorizing mental disorders....

   demons spelled backwards.

I see some of this similar, some I see differently.

Daniel, if you've had a moment where the Holy Spirit drew you to Jesus, and you trusted in Him as your Savior, I believe He came into you with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.  I personally believe that's permanent ("sealed with the Holy Spirit unto that day") and that satan or his demons cannot kick the Holy Spirit out.  Nothing can separate you.  I also don't believe a saved Spirit-inhabited believer can be demon possessed.  Hassled, tempted, tricked, fooled, criticized, discouraged, etc., but not ever possessed or completely controlled.  I believe after the cross - in this current age of grace- after the Holy Spirit was sent to inhabit believers, demons must work from outside a redeemed believer..not able to take over the inside, which is bought and paid for by the blood of Jesus and the new residence of God's Spirit.

I also believe there are brain dysfunctions, sometimes hereditary, sometimes caused by trauma, often a combination;  and ending up being biologic, i.e., the brain doesn't work in a healthy manner.  I believe for a non-believer that is not inhabited by the Holy Spirit, they very well may have demon/demons working through them;  or maybe not.  It could "just" be a mental illness.  For a believer, I believe demons may influence out thoughts, feelings, etc., again from the outside as a "trick", but it basically may not be what's wrong.  It could be "just' a mental illness.  I do believe though that satan siezes on our weaknesses, takes advantage of our vulnerable spots and pokes at them, causing us as much misery and difficulty as possible, exacerbating what's already wrong or not healthy with us.

Much of the same still applies as far as thinking on the good things, seeking to be filled to overflowing daily, submitting ourselves to God's leadership, confessing our sins and looking to Him for deliverance and strength.

Sometimes God takes away, sometimes He makes a way. 

Ultimately confessing that His grace is sufficient for all our weaknesses and needs

 :iagree: a million fold. Daniel, please listen to Jabcat. It is wise advise.

You should be aware of the concept of invasive thoughts and the ironic process. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ironic_process_theory

Your thoughts do not necessarily represent who you are so you don't have to fear them or worry that you are evil or blaspheming or anything. Thoughts can just as easily be an expression of what you fear, what angers you, what disgusts you, etc rather than being consistent with the state of your heart. A person who despises violence can have very violent thoughts, a loving mother can have an intrusive thought of her harming her kid, etc. People also have intrusive sexual thoughts(thoughts that cause distress, that you were not trying to think about, etc) and "blasphemy" is a common invasive thought(like imagining yourself insulting God) but that is not blasphemy(if you regret it immediately or within hours then I seriously doubt you committed blasphemy). There are probably ways to cut down the amount of intrusive thoughts or at least learn to live with them without distress. One of the most important things is to simply realize that you can have thoughts uncharacteristic of you. Thoughts can just be kind of random sometimes. I don't think we can directly block out thoughts(because of the ironic process) but I think things like what TV shows we watch, what kind of entertainment we choose, what we read, etc. influences our thoughts. Sometime we directly choose our thoughts and sometimes we experience unchosen thoughts that we are not really responsible or accountable for you will likely have aggressive thoughts if you watch action movies/shows, you will likely have unchosen/unwanted gruesome thoughts if you see or watch gruesome stuff, you will likely have unwanted/unchosen sexual thoughts if you are watching movies/shows or even reading books with sexual stuff, you will likely have intrusive thoughts of insulting or rejecting God(or doing whatever you consider blasphemy) if you are afraid of accidentally committing blasphemy(but people shouldn't worry because blasphemy isn't something that is done by accident or on some tiny whim). I am not saying it is wrong to watch action movies(that is a whole different subject for discussion anyway) but that our experiences and memories(good, bad, real, or fictional) influence the thoughts that unwillfully pop into our heads.

Very interesting article DanielB. I've experienced that myself. I'd be worried about something and I'd force myself not to think about it, and it would seem to intensify the frequency. Interesting there's a name for it. Makes me wonder about the scripture, "take captive every thought." I used think that meant don't think certain things, but now I think it means come to some mastery over how your thoughts lead to action. I've come to the place where I have recognized that if an evil thought comes to mind, it's just a function of my flesh. I don't have to make it about me, or agree with it.

Have you ever tried fasting? Some people have said that helps. I don't know how long you are supposed to fast to help schizophrenia but you may want to research that. Be careful but open minded. I am speaking of "fasting" from a medical perspective. I "fast" every day. I abstain from consuming any calories for 16 hours or longer each day(you can have water but no drinks with calories) and have an 8 hour eating window. There are definitely benefits even if it does not help your psychological state so I would recommend trying it either way. This is the video that made me decide to give it a try. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4UkZAwKoCP8

I just made a post in this section of the forum about how to fast. Make sure your medication allows for fasting if you decide to try it.

I've tried Fasting, Daniel. Currently I have started a gluten-free diet because I've read many psychiatric articles that describe how Gluten can cause brain problems. And it's helping me much. I've also once fasted fully for a week, except for water and milk coffee, and it helped. But in my group home they don't like to see it.

Funny     JESUS  own words . How this kind only comes out by prayer  and fasting ...

I do believe mankind  has most definitely  hidden the evil , within their hearts for a very , very long time ...

Evil comes from the EVIL ONE   working in   wicked men     Cain is that example  in the bible  from long ago ..  1 John 3Love One Another
11This is the message you have heard from the beginning: We should love one another.

12Do not be like Cain, who belonged to the evil one and murdered his brother. And why did he slay him? Because his own deeds were evil, while those of his brother were righteous. 13So do not be surprised, brothers, if the world hates you....
   Now,If you don't believe Jesus , or the Bible or are constantly looking  for  reasons  and excuses  to cover up the the TRUTH  with human wisdom [that is earthly sensual and devilish ],    Than HIS WORD does not have no place in you ....
I do see  an awful lot of stumbling over the WORD  ... and the worldly wisdom is   still in blindness ...

  Evil one Request for Prayer
...2And pray that we may be delivered from wicked and evil men; for not everyone holds to the faith. 3But the Lord is faithful, and He will strengthen you and guard you from the evil one. 4And we have confidence in the Lord that you are doing and will continue to do what we command....

Matthew 5:37
Simply let your 'Yes' be 'Yes,' and your 'No,' 'No.' Anything more comes from the evil one.

Matthew 6:13
And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from the evil one.'

1 Corinthians 1:9
God, who has called you into fellowship with His Son Jesus Christ our Lord, is faithful.

1 Thessalonians 5:24
The One who calls you is faithful, and He will do it.

2 Thessalonians 2:17
encourage your hearts and strengthen you in every good word and deed.

1 Peter 5:10
And after you have suffered for a little while, the God of all grace, who has called you to His eternal glory in Christ, will Himself restore you, secure you, strengthen you, and establish you.


For me,   the confusion is  stemming from    lust  in the heart  , being  a strong desire     and confusing it with Love  , both can cause a strong and powerful overwhelming  burning of   , a strong feeling of wanting to have something or wishing for something to happen. 

The heart ''conceives ''  forms , creates  devises plans  that take action , lust when it is  brought forth from the heart   grows  in to death , forming all this corruption     and we see massive amounts of corruption  ,  taking the truth and perverting it ...  twisting it     and making  a holy thing  SEE  EVIL .


James 1 ...14But each one is tempted when by his own evil desires he is lured away and enticed.

15Then after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and when sin is fully grown, it gives birth to death. 16Do not be deceived, my beloved brothers....

  The sin or error of covetousness , all these sins that so easily  beset us ,  being of a problem or difficulty, trouble or threaten persistently. and working death in us and not life  in us or anyone ..     that is ready to be burned as refuse   , tainted garbage ..

They are never content ,  but stay in a state of  constant   want ,  need and desire to have  , greedy ,  unthankful  and  NEVER satisfied  and   fail to glorify God .

Vexing the Holy Spirit    ,  these  Scripture speak of sins which one commits against the Holy Spirit.  Isaiah 63:10,10But they rebelled And grieved His Holy Spirit; Therefore He turned Himself to become their enemy, He fought against them. Matthew 12:3 1-32 (also of Mark 3:29 and Luke 12:10),

  and they wanted to KILL on the Sabbath rest   and not show mercy at all , this grieves the Holy Spirit  working in us all ... judging ANY  under the law as guilty  as charged   and anything under the law of Moses is the earthly  glory that is put to shame  by the heavenly Glory to Come ,,


. 5 And haven't you read in the law of Moses that the priests on duty in the Temple may work on the Sabbath?

6 I tell you, there is one here who is even greater than the Temple! 7 But you would not have condemned my innocent disciples if you knew the meaning of this Scripture: 'I want you to show mercy, not offer sacrifices.' 8 For the Son of Man is Lord, even over the Sabbath!"Acts 5:3-9, Acts 7:51, Ephesians 4:30, I Thessalonians 5:19, and Hebrews 10:29.



Isaiah 57 ;1716"For I will not contend forever, Nor will I always be angry; For the spirit would grow faint before Me, And the breath of those whom I have made.

17"Because of the iniquity of his unjust gain[covetousness ] I was angry and struck him; I hid My face and was angry, And he went on turning away, in the way of his heart. 18"I have seen his ways, but I will heal him; I will lead him and restore comfort to him and to his mourners,...

What happens after the Lord heals the beast   with  7 heads  / carnal mind/  the  enemy of the HOLY SPIRIT   and  DEATH and dead works    of the babes whose sins are forgiven  them  , for His names  sake ?

    GOD healed   , this deadly wound  by sending His   SON THE LORD JESUS CHRIST   lastly  , showing great mercy and grace   and yet   in Revelation 13  , but  rejected the mind of Christ for the    7   spirits   more wicked   found in Babylon ...CHURCH OF THE EARTH   over the TRUE CHURCH/BODY OF CHRIST  OF HEAVEN

And where is the synagog of satan   found in?   ,,   the church of pergamos  OL SATAN'S THRONE [high and lofty prideful    heights  ]  one of the  MAIN  7  churches to overcome  !

  JESUS CHRIST IS THE REWARD .....PHILADELPHIA CHURCH  The Church at Philadelphia and the Key of David (Revelation 3:7-13)That opens HEAVEN that no man can shut !!  love GOD  first and one another as you do your own selves   , pray in the SPIRIT OF LIFE   for more Life in others  ,  mercy being the  key that unlocks  every  wonderful working of Gods Holy WORD AND SPIRIT OF LIFE  FLOWING  to the outer  court , and  HEAVEN OPENED  becoming spiritual to the full  and satan cannot touch it , because your flesh is dead and he  cannot destroy what is already dead .. Faith , hope and Love being the things that remain  in the power of  TRUTH AND LIFE by THE HOLY SPIRIT   .

Lastly the  lukewarm church    , we cannot find ourselves in this  state and condition ,,,  as long as we continue to  look outside  of the kingdom of God   that is within you  or keep looking for some other place and some other time    and do not  heed the warnings  , nor  hear   or see    not take it to HEART    and BE HEALED ,     there will no understanding  it and the confusion by mixing is the lukewarm  state and  condition that all the things the DAY OF THE LORD will come upon  and be revealed  to .    BUT THE REWARD  By opening our hearts door   to Jesus Christ  is    glorious    HE CORRECTS  BY HOLY SPIRIT   WITNESS ..

  19 Those whom I love, I reprove and discipline; therefore be zealous and repent.

20 Behold, I stand at the door and knock; if anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and will dine with him, and he with Me. 21 He who overcomes, I will grant to him to sit down with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne. 22 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.'"
Ruling over  everything  in the   world   even   the evil one..  IN   our own heart  in  the seat of authority    being with   the FATHER AND THE SON  AS ONE .
It starts with you     and  in the end  SALVATION   and every good work    God has done   in you ...  to His glory that we get to   experience /quicken   in our own mortal bodies    and LIVE  and never die as He promises  to those whom LOVE HIM   ..

Hi anti-nietzche.

I did a little research, and the research agreed with jabcat.

I will post the link. http://www.gty.org/resources/questions/QA191/can-christians-be-demonpossessed

I have listened to him on Christian radio. He seems sound.

Hope this helps to calm your concerns.

D.                           :Peace2:

Dandelion, I'm not sure, he quotes Jonathan Edwards and that's raising my concerns.

Also, religious experiences ARE important and I am very much for seeking them. I had some of these too and remember them gladly and they are important to my faith. The bible is important too but I worship God himself, not a book.

Hi anti-nietzsche.

I will look into Jonathan Edwards.

As for religious experiences, I don't see where it says that they are not important. He says the Bible is the one source of truth, but, he is a Christian and that is what almost all Christian say. I don't think he is trying to negate the Holy Spirit, nor going to church, or other places where we can worship and praise God.

Catholics and Orthodox believers accept traditions and the Bible as their source of truth, but 'Christians' or those who believe those theological basics founded on the Reformation by Martin Luther, look to the Bible alone, for truth. Or, at least, that is usually the 'official' stand of those believers.

I hope this is not confusing. I believe that the Bible is the only written source of truth, but I go to many, many places of worship,  both churches and other Christian outreach; coffeehouses; Bible studies; Healing services, and so on.

I was a Catholic for 47 years, so I understand that perspective, as well.

Please feel free to ask me any other questions about the article. Hopefully, I will be able to answer them. 

D.

I'm not sure, the article might be right about a spirit-filled believer being unable to be truly possessed by demons. But Jesus also exorcised Maria Magdalena 7 times and I suppose as a disciple of Jesus she was also spirit-filled. I don't understand yet what a demon is really supposed to be, if he has a spiritual body and such. The Holy Spirit in us has no body at all I guess, never thought about it. Is spirit like a substance that can be filled into someone, or is that just a way of speaking about it? And humans have spirit in them naturally, how could a demon replace it if he is only spirit too? A bottle filled with water cannot be replaced by more water or another liquid. Maybe the divine spirit and the holy spirit are yet in a third dimension and have yet another substance than demonic beings. I don't know.

And what I also do not understand, if by demons we mean evil angels then they are intelligent and self conscious and it would stand to reason why they would slip into someone and spend all their time with this person. Can you play Pokemon on a gameboy type thingie for months and years without taking breaks? That and because I had the experiences I wrote about, I think demons can cause harm with their magic abilities and assault our minds and can twist them. Or is there another kind of demons apart from evil angels? With a mind like insects perhaps? Either way the demons in the bible were able to speak and it puzzles me that they would hold out in a man for such long uninterrupted times. An evil human would become bored. I'm not sure what kind of intelligence a demon has. Or where they actually come from.

Mary Magdelene wasn't Spirit filled because Jesus hadn't died and been resurrected yet. The Spirit was given at Pentacost.

Romans 11:29
The gifts and calling of God are irrevocable.

The gift of the Spirit cannot be taken away from you if you are called and Spirit filled. That doesn't mean you can't be judged, but the Holy Spirit isn't fickle and over-sensitive. The Bible makes it clear that God holds us accountable for our own sins. We can't go blaming demon possession every time we sin.

It's like the scripture Rose quoted. Why did Cain kill Able? Because his own deeds were evil.

1 Cor 9;26 and 27 and every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things...so fight I as not one who beats the air.

  ch 10;3,4 and did all eat the same spiritual meat and drink the same spiritual drink,for they drank of that spiritual rock that

followed them,and that Rock was Christ. v 6 Now these things were our examples that we not lust after evil things,as they lusted.


   the spirit of man is redeemed..but there is a battle for the heart,mind and body[salvation for the soul/temple]for it is very precious

to God. we all fight this battle to bring it into subjection.And I give you all power and authority over the enemy.........

   it is not His will that sin rule over us...but that we get the mastery over it.

   the power of Christ can cast out legions of demons that have driven a man unto madness...and give him a sound mind.the power

of Christ can bind satan in the earth[your body] until He comes to judge it. what you loose on earth is loosed in heaven[your mind and

the accusor causing you much torment and no peace]

     

Psalms 41;2  The Lord will preserve him and keep him alive,and he shall be blessed upon the earth,and Thou wilt not deliver him

  unto the will of his enemies. The Lord will strengthen him upon the bed of sickness,thou wilt change all his bed in his sickness

   I said 'Lord be merciful unto me,heal my  soul;for I have sinned against thee."

we must not heal/bind up the 'wound[sin] of His people lightly.  the parable of the good Samaritan. when you see a man robbed and

wounded[robber and theives in his temple]

   you pour 'oil' Holy spirit and it's necessary things/as a rebuke..and wine of the covenant/joy of forgiveness in his sin wound.

    you suffer the 'cost' of His healing

we must give the redletter words/blood of Jesus first place.over all the wisdom of mental health 'so called' experts. You must not

place their words/wisdom above HIS...there is a price/cost to pay when you do this.  This is MY SON..in Him I am well pleased

     hear ye HM.

Quote from: Seth on August 24, 2016, 05:25:16 PM
Mary Magdelene wasn't Spirit filled because Jesus hadn't died and been resurrected yet. The Spirit was given at Pentacost.

Romans 11:29
The gifts and calling of God are irrevocable.

The gift of the Spirit cannot be taken away from you if you are called and Spirit filled. That doesn't mean you can't be judged, but the Holy Spirit isn't fickle and over-sensitive. The Bible makes it clear that God holds us accountable for our own sins. We can't go blaming demon possession every time we sin.

It's like the scripture Rose quoted. Why did Cain kill Able? Because his own deeds were evil.

I agree.  The cross and empty tomb is the critical dividing line in history, and things need to be interpreted with that in view.  Context, primary audiance, age in which things were spoken, addressing who and what primarily, etc...rightly dividing.   :2c: 

I decided to reply to the opening post before reading on in the thread..

hi Daniel! (anti-nietzche), I'm sure there's been really good replies and advice, but I just had to add my own 2 cents worth.. I have a lot of experience with schizophrenia, as  have 3 siblings and other relatives who have been diagnosed with it.. My sister, especially, has talked with me quite a ibt about it, and I have seen her under the influence of hearing the voices she would hear (she passed away a couple of years ago, totally unrelated to her illness).

AS I understand it, it's important to continue with meds.. the one that doesn't harm you may be helping you to discern what voice/thoughts not to listen to (heed). As for self gratification, et makes an issue of it, but it is nowhere in God's scriptures.. forbidding I think can do more harm than good.. tho viewing others as enticement is, well, ruining the earth/nations/culture..

I think all humans get negative things broadcast to us by the fallen/rebel angels.. though of course not all our negative or wrongdoing thoughts are from them but from an imperfect nature.. even we christians as we are not perfected until His return (1 Cor 15:52)

I get strange thoughts when driving.. "what would it be like to drive over that cliff? into that lake? into that swampy area?" Now I would never ever follow through, and they are fleeting, but they come to me nevertheless -  I have learned recently to plead the blood of Jesus over such thoughts.. and any other less than good thoughts.. I will also get images when driving or even walking.. of being broadsided by another vehicle.. fun things like that.. I see them as threats.. And since I think there's creative ability in thoughts (and words) I imagine a big X over such thoughts. (And now plead the blood.)

I believe these sorts of things - like every ache and pain - oh dear, maybe it's cancer! are attempts by the enemy to get us to believe in them.. if I were to worry enough over something being cancer.. enough times.. well, "according to our faith, so be it"? Hence I plead the blood over them and quote a verse or two.. "by His stripes I am healed" - "bloved I desire above all things that you may prosper and be in health even as your soul/life/psyche/self/being prospers" - "the Lord is righteous He has cut asunder the cords of the wicked" Or my favorite "Jesus is Lord and God is love".

I've made progress... I used to call myself names (when under stress) now I will only call myself a dweeb, or silly, which I'm sure I am, so those don't bother me.. (though I'm not real sure of the Webster's definition of "dweeb")

And I do generally go through my days at least once or twice ordering all unclean spirits away.. if not from me, from my home.. loved ones.. etc.. adding "in the name of Jesus" of course.

I figure I need listen to no negative report.. no fear.. or even harassment.. "whatsoever things are lovely.. of good report, think on these things.." .."every pure and perfect thing comes down from the Father of lights.." Even when receiving correction from the Lord, it is not a voice of threat or abusive in any way.. I think this is the "discerning of spirits" - again, not that every negative thought is from a fallen angel/dark entity..

Jesus said "I give to you the authority to tread upon serpents and scorpions, and on all the power of the enemy, and nothing by any means shall hurt you" - I have no trouble believing by serpents and scorpions He was referring to the enemy..

Things which worry me unduly - I was having a sore throat and cough, then read a blog - coincidentally - which said if he couldn't rid himself of a sore throat and cough, ( :mshock: ) how would he tackle any bigger matters? he was experiencing the enemy in the gate" was the message he felt he was getting from the Spirit of the Lord.. well, struggle on a bit.. cold still came on.. so i quit the struggle and just left it in the Lord's hands.. what's a cold after all? (oh well. I don't know about anyone else, but it's the little things sometimes which trip me up..)

So I'm thinking to just put this whole matter in His loving hands and rest in Him concerning it.. trusting Him to take care of it and resolve it. He is so much more able than we are..

I gotta run.. grandaughter needs a ride.. and taking other grand daughter and friend to the park for a bit..

God love you!! It's not His will you/we suffer from such things.. I will keep you in my prayers..
Much love, and God bless :HeartThrob:

Quote from: sheila on August 24, 2016, 06:59:38 PM
we must give the redletter words/blood of Jesus first place.over all the wisdom of mental health 'so called' experts. You must not

place their words/wisdom above HIS...there is a price/cost to pay when you do this.  This is MY SON..in Him I am well pleased

     hear ye HM.

However, Jesus never said that anytime and every time someone has mental health issues it is because of demon possession. Neither is the understanding of the science behind mental health issues a denial that demon possession can occur, or a denial that demons exist.

Hear YOU him, Sheila. The gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

Quote from: jabcat on August 24, 2016, 08:03:01 PM

Quote from: Seth on August 24, 2016, 05:25:16 PM
Mary Magdelene wasn't Spirit filled because Jesus hadn't died and been resurrected yet. The Spirit was given at Pentacost.

Romans 11:29
The gifts and calling of God are irrevocable.

The gift of the Spirit cannot be taken away from you if you are called and Spirit filled. That doesn't mean you can't be judged, but the Holy Spirit isn't fickle and over-sensitive. The Bible makes it clear that God holds us accountable for our own sins. We can't go blaming demon possession every time we sin.

It's like the scripture Rose quoted. Why did Cain kill Able? Because his own deeds were evil.

I agree.  The cross and empty tomb is the critical dividing line in history, and things need to be interpreted with that in view.  Context, primary audiance, age in which things were spoken, addressing who and what primarily, etc...rightly dividing.   :2c: 

:thumbsup:

go read my first sentence in reply number1...'in some cases"

You said the Holy Spirit cannot dwell in him if he masturbates.

the Holy spirit come down on Jesus in the bodily form of a dove...and remained.

the kingdom of heaven is like a mustard seed[in your midst] it grows to be the largest tree in the garden...the birds of the air[spirits]

both clean and unclean roost in it's branches. perhaps even a serpent may be found in the branches.

  if the unclean birds begin harassing the doves they may flutter away...when that happens we miss out on being led/taught by the Holy spirit.

  now Father does not will that evil prevail....and the doves return again and again..but if that trees branches become over-run with

serpents and unclean birds.the doves will 'light' elsewhere.


would you stay in the room with him while he masturbates..and say 'Glory be to Thee God?" if it would make you uncomfortable

what think you the Holy spirit dove would feel?

The Holy Spirit is like a dove inthe sense of purity not in the sense of fright or flight. He isnt a literal dove. He is sloooow to anger.

The gifts and calling of God are WITHOUT REPENTANCE.

yes,true..but the church is spiritually unsound and overcome  too...and many do not reach maturity or prosper in this life

  spiritually or become mature...and remain babes. they do not grow in understanding or expierence the abundance that could be theirs

     now.

Daniel ch 4...Nebuchaddnezers dream of the tree....beasts under the shade of the tree. This,too,may happen spiritually speaking.

 lesson from Jonah[dove] ch 4;2 for I knowest Thou art a gracious God,and merciful,slow to anger,and of great kindness,and

repentenst Thee of evil.

Quote from: sheila on August 24, 2016, 10:19:05 PM
yes,true..but the church is spiritually unsound and overcome  too...and many do not reach maturity or prosper in this life

  spiritually or become mature...and remain babes. they do not grow in understanding or expierence the abundance that could be theirs

     now.

Yes, but that is a matter of walking according to the Spirit, not having the Spirit.

again a parable of a tree that didn't bear fruit..and the order to cut it down[pruning of dry branches of the vine] the tree may get 'dunged"

  and dug about it's roots to bring about growth and fruitfulness.

That has to do with natural brute beasts (2 Peter 2). Not struggling with certain sins, even the ones you personally find to be egregious. You can't just dictate that people who masturbate are getting cut off of the tree. That's not in the Bible. You have to go completely off the rails in 2 Peter 2 fashion to have that happen.

doves dung is the best to foment growth/fruitfulness of trees........The Holy spirit show the requirements of God.His gifts and

calling may be without repentance..but that doesn't mean we are not called to repentance at times.

   and those are Jesus words not mine/His parables.His teachings...

Like I said, one may have the Spirit and still be judged and called to repentance. Titus 2 says that Grace chastens us to live moral lives. Chastening means we may have done something to need chastening for, but that doesn't mean we have necessarily withered on the branch. Some people think that a woman wearing her skirt above her knees is a sexual sin. Or a neckline too low. Or too much flirtation. What if they say that means the woman has lost the Spirit? Who is the arbitor of what specific sins an otherwise well meaning Christian will get cut off for? Them? You?

Suppose a man or a woman has had a spouse pass away, and to feel close to them again, they masturbate while thinking of them? They're going to lose the Spirit for that? You might think that is a sin, but I don't. I don't think the mechanical act is the sin, but what occurs in the mind may be sinful.

which is it Seth? I tell you the atonement Jesus makes by placing all the people's sin on Azazael's the scape goats head..and you say

  I am making excuses for the sin of masturbation.I tell him to repent and follow the Holy spirit's commandment to flee from sexual

immorality and I'm judging. it appears to me you justify neither the Holy spirit or man..but masturbation.

Sorry, Shiela, you can't prove that the mechanical act vs the thought is the true sin. If you can't do that, you have no scriptural basis for your warnings. Also, you can't prov scripturally that even if the mechanical act was a sin, than it would result in anyone losing the Holy Spirit. It's just your opinion.

but Jesus can..He IS the authority..if a man keeps looking at a woman to lust after her........

   Luke 7;31-35  Whereunto then shall I liken the men of this generation................

Then it would be best to leave it in his hands. I doubt God will judge a Christian harshly for the desires he or she had to the memory of a dead spouse. But, that's just my opinion. You have your opinions. I have mine.

right..and I really feel it would profit nothing to discuss it further.. :thumbsup:

Quote from: Dandelion on August 24, 2016, 02:33:23 PM
Hi anti-nietzsche.

I will look into Jonathan Edwards.

As for religious experiences, I don't see where it says that they are not important. He says the Bible is the one source of truth, but, he is a Christian and that is what almost all Christian say. I don't think he is trying to negate the Holy Spirit, nor going to church, or other places where we can worship and praise God.

Catholics and Orthodox believers accept traditions and the Bible as their source of truth, but 'Christians' or those who believe those theological basics founded on the Reformation by Martin Luther, look to the Bible alone, for truth. Or, at least, that is usually the 'official' stand of those believers.

I hope this is not confusing. I believe that the Bible is the only written source of truth, but I go to many, many places of worship,  both churches and other Christian outreach; coffeehouses; Bible studies; Healing services, and so on.

I was a Catholic for 47 years, so I understand that perspective, as well.

Please feel free to ask me any other questions about the article. Hopefully, I will be able to answer them. 

D.

Okay, I see why the mention of Jonathan Edwards makes you uneasy, anti-nietzche. Sorry. I will look for another article for you.       :dunno2:

D.

On a different note......

Continuing my research, I find that it seems the vast majority of Christians seem to agree that there is no indication in the Bible of true believers being possessed by demons.

D.

Seth, I think sometimes Jesus was rather ironic about the law of Moses. He taught the law of God (the smallest commandments, like "do not steal" or "do not kill"), and not the mosaic law, except for the love commandments. IMHO he treated the mosaic law like he would treat every country's law, to be obeyed for now, but as being for man, not man for the law. He said we should cut off our hands if they'd lead us into temptation, or gauge out our eyes. Again, Jesus is being ironic and he is exaggerating the issue to make people understand they need God and salvation and freedom more than rigid religious laws that cause hell. He acted like Paul, checking everything with the spirit and taking what is good while leaving what was not good away.

Same with his words about looking after a woman being adultery already. Jesus was making a point to the jews that they were so uptight about adulterous people when in fact they'd do the same thing when they would look after some with lust. But this is entirely unavoidable. I mean, if I see a pretty girl I don't let my tongue hang out and I'm not running home to masturbate. That's just silly. But I feel attraction and could admire someone's beauty or sexiness. That's the normal play of the sexes. We shouldn't be so obsessed with sexual imperfections. I think Jesus himself lusted after Mary Magdalene and maybe they slept with each other. Fornication for me is more about rape and carelessness. Abraham had concubines. David too. Solomo had a 1000 wives.

If I could get back my first girlfriend, I'd run for it. I still love her much. But I do not fall in love with someone else. So to relieve pressure I masturbate sometimes. I do not know how I could avoid that, I am still young enough to feel the pressure. And it's only human and a normal thing. The spirit is not against it.

Well, I completely disagree about Jesus and Mary M. My only point about masturbation is that I believe that the sin begins in the mind. I do believe people who do it can be sinning depending on what is in the mind. That is where I believe Jesus was illuminating. I think the Jews were more focused on the outside action, but Jesus was teaching them about the thought life.

Quote from: Seth on August 25, 2016, 07:20:19 AM
Well, I completely disagree about Jesus and Mary M.

Absolutely, I don't believe there's any chance, unless they were married and I don't believe they were.  Jesus was sinless.  Fornication is sin.

*Fornication Hebrew: zanah / Greek: porneia Voluntary sexual intercourse between a man and woman who are not married to each other is a common type of fornication. Adultery is a type of fornication. The Greek word for 'fornication' (porneia) could include any sexual sin committed after the betrothal contract. ...In Biblical usage, 'fornication' can mean any sexual congress outside monogamous marriage [between a man and a woman].

http://christiananswers.net/dictionary/fornication.html

(If we confess, Jesus forgives and gives mercy, strength to overcome, and grace.)

But Jesus said implicitly that the law was for man, and subject to revision according to whether they were good or bad laws. I'm of the view that sex must be about love, faithfulness and romance, but I am not so sure about a pressing need for marriage. I mean you get to know someone. You like each other, and love and romance develop. But what if you marry and then find out it doesn't work in bed. Then you must get divorce and that's adultery according to many people. That's why it can be better to sleep with each other already when you're not married yet. You have to find out if things work out in bed. Or suppose you are gay. The law forbids it but that's the law of Moses, not God's law (that's the 10 commandments). And Christ's law is the 2 love commandments. Gays practicing their sexuality hurt nobody with that so why would you call it a sin? Are we not made for freedom and for the pursuit of happiness? If you meet someone who is sexy, already the recognition of that is a form of lust. That's what Jesus is calling a problem with the Law of Moses people. They call things sin that are not hurting anybody, and what they call just that is hurting everyone. Jesus gave us a spiritual way, and we are not supposed to follow the bible law of sin and death. God is not so interested in our sins only, he wants friendship and love between us and him and Jesus and the Holy Spirit. It's less of a religion with purity laws and all, it's more existential than that. We need spirit to live by, not religious laws that raise sin to live and makes us die. The 10 commandments do not cause that. The love commandments do not cause that. They are examples of how God wants us to be protected from harming each other. Many of the other laws and sayings in the bible don't serve that purpose and instead of promoting love they just promote religious zeal like Paul observes it in the Jews of his time. But love is not zealous. It doesn't seek religious gratification and it doesn't lord things over others. The son has made us free, for freedom, happiness and love!

We can't make the scriptures say what we want them to say or what feels better to us.  If we do, we twist them to our own spiritual (and sometimes physical) harm.  This line in your post sticks out;  "Many of the other laws and sayings in the bible don't serve that purpose and instead of promoting love they just promote religious zeal".  The scriptures need to be observed, and they talk about love AND truth.  True, they need to be accurately translated, and revealed to us in our mind and spirit by HIS Spirit.  But 2 Peter 3:16 describes how we can twist the scriptures, and when we do, it's to our own demise/destruction.  I see this to mean we don't grow spiritually, and will even face bigger consequences (discipline, correction), including the fruit of our thoughts and behavior.  Paul talked about certain sins, including sex between same-sex people as ending in them "receiving the due penalty of their error".  There are consequences to us not following what's revealed in the scriptures, either ignorantly or belligerantly (I've done both, and paid - and in some cases, still paying the price).  Again, Jesus forgives and heals, but sometimes we still reap what we've sown.  That's why the requirements are there - to protect us, and also to reward us for surrender and obedience.  I'm still learning, I still fail, so I'm not saying I've got this.  I'm just saying this is how I believe we're to seek to follow.  Only and always with His help.  And when we stumble, then there's His mercy.  He is long-suffering.  But some things are put in place and carry "natural" consequences.  Others, without repentance, will bring discipline and correction.

So IMO, to say some of things you're suggesting, such as trying out sex before marriage, just can't be proved with honest and accurate scriptural evidences. 

This is said not to condemn or judge.  Trying to speak the truth (as I understand it) in love. 

Maybe I can help you.

In Pauline understanding, sometimes they made a division between the law of Moses and the prophets, and sometimes they called the entire bible the law. I think it is in this understanding that Paul wrote in Galatians that in Christ this handwriting (the law ie the bible), has been nailed to the cross and hereby invalidated. In that bible there had been active the law of sin and death, ie the people (not God himself) were inventing laws that described a sin and a penalty for sin. This theme is present throughout the entire bible. But Paul argues, where there is no law, there sin is dead. Man has not been made for a righteousness by the law because you would have to keep all laws. IE, become married, have children, be circumcized, eat no pork and shellfish, wear no clothing made of mixed fibres, keep the passa, etc. Basically you would have to become a Jew. But now came Jesus and spoke about problems between the God of love and the laws of the Jews. He confirmed the 10 commandments but added that nobody of the Jews had seen God. He confirmed the need to obey the law of the land and preached that too when confirming that the pharisees sat in Moses' seat. But there are other people in the world who have other laws. And I believe in order to free believers in God from bad laws, Jesus is nailing them to the cross and stepping in the gap between mankind and God. It is love that God wants to give us, not religious laws by which we would die.

Why would you think God would pronounce death penalties to gays? I see absolutely no sense in that. First off gays do no harm to someone if they sleep with each other. God says do not kill in the 10 commandments. Jesus confirmed that God said, love your neighbor like yourself. That is how the truly greater laws invalidate the lesser laws. Accordingly, Jesus absolved the adulteress and said only the sinless can execute punishments like stoning, showing the Jews that nobody except God can be sinless, and he's absolving people and not condemning them.

We should therefor follow Jesus closer and take serious the reality that in Christ we can be like Christ himself and bring grace and mercy to people. Why would you dig up laws that make sin come alive and make sin exceedingly sinful? That was a tenet of Christ's truth that I think not even the apostles (most of them being simple men of the land) did not quite understand first. They were too used to their lives being strictly regulated by all kinds of rules and statutes. They were not fully knowledgeable about the Spirit yet who is the true God. But little by little, in history, the laws were changed until we arrive at the laws we have today that are supposed to guarantee our freedom. We are not slaves of God anymore but instead his friends and children!

Let's please go back to here so we can determine the usefulness of continuing in this vein, and how to proceed.  Please address the essence of the questions asked; 

do you believe all of scripture is the written Words of God, i.e., inspired and trustworthy (accurately translated, Spirit-revealed) or only parts or none of it?  Is it acceptable to God that parts be dismissed if they don't "seem" right or make sense to us?

specifically do you believe Paul's letters are inspired scripture to be rightly divided and taken as gospel in this age?



IMO, if we don't hold the scriptures as trustworthy, then we can believe anything we want, argue any position, and never get anywhere as far as true scriptural understanding and resolution.  If you don't truly believe the inspiration and authority of scripture as questioned above, then we'll shake hands and not pursue further "reasoning together" on these specific matters.  Because if we turn to our own reason and imagination as our "truth", I believe that can just become useless struggle.  Thanks Daniel.

Okay. For me part of scripture is inspired and in the will of God, part is not. God had been active among the Israelites, but in the same way he had been active in the world and in other religions too. God is the Spirit and as such he graces everyone with life and sense and logos. Jesus Christ was the first and the Mightiest son of this Spirit. The bible is inspired, but not inerrant. Scripture is useful as a didactic tool about right and wrong and good and evil, but it can't usually be taken literally. This is especially true of the hebrew Old Testament that really begins to shine when you compare the different meanings of the words and what is hidden in the metaphors, names, symbolic speeches, etc. Translating that book has been a problem because translations only transmit a single thread of what was intended while in fact there is a whole tapestry to find. In Jesus' time the art of interpreting a book spiritually had become lost, the knowledge of God had decreased and accordingly God says, "my people perish for lack of knowledge". Most of the time a story in the Old Testament had depicted another real story that does not quite appear so in the literal reading of the text. You must use your imagination to get there where it is still possible. The bible is not just a collection of God's sayings but instead represents a collection of what men thought about God, some of them being holy and some of them not being so holy, and either way holiness doesn't equal infallibility. I also think the fact that there had been evil kings plays along with that because they suppressed the truth and the bible writers had to write in code and hid good things of God in expressing bad things about God. It is rather clear to me that there are errors in the bible, but that is to be expected when not God himself but instead "men of God" write a book. I do not believe God intended for us to be wholly dependent on a book taken as law, and actually expects us to decipher reality spiritually and keep close with God and learn from the Spirit directly.

God bless you!

 
I BELIEVE  the WHOLE WORD OF GOD IS PERFECT  , COMPLETE  and   GLORIOUS !!

It is our own understanding of it ,that is yet flawed    .

I will always believe this and no man can change my mind about that ...   many , many things are still sealed up  , because we are not prepared to receive them yet .

  Always remember,  that  it is GODS grace  that  gives the spiritual increase ...

  So many  still  remain spiritually discerned .... including myself  ,  but my hope and joy still remains in the LOVE OF GOD  reveling His   one of a kind Son ,in all of creation .   We wait on the  LORD  to bring to LIGHT the hidden things  yet to be released and made known 
  GOD IS PERFECT  IN ALL HIS WAYS  , ALWAYS HAS BEEN AND ALWAYS WILL BE ..    Have  your confidence in that   Living hope ..

  All things were made for him and though him AND HIS GLORY IS IN THE FATHER as we become ONE with them  and all that is being gathered into CHRIST  , THE LIGHT OF THE WHOLE WORLD .. THE LOVE AND KNOWLEDGE OF THIS  GLORIOUS LOVE  made known ..

COL 1 The Incomparable Christ
13 For He rescued us from the domain of darkness, and transferred us to the kingdom of His beloved Son, 14 in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.

15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. 16 For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through Him and for Him.

17 He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together. 18 He is also head of the body, the church; and He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that He Himself will come to have first place in everything. 19 For it was the Father's good pleasure for all the fullness to dwell in Him, 20 and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, I say, whether things on earth or things in heaven.

21 And although you were formerly alienated and hostile in mind, engaged in evil deeds,


22 yet He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death, in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach—

23 if indeed you continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel that you have heard, which was proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul, was made a minister.

How we think and speak determines     the power of  the  WORD  working  within us all    by His Spirit of Truth    and must be careful how we hear and speak .


GODS GLORY will be made known in the earth and it is  going to happen,   if you be  for Him  / gathering  into Christ or speak against Him /scattering  abroad ...

  :dsunny: :HeartThrob:  His Light and LOVE will remain ,  despite all efforts to destroy     the TRUTH ....   

Hi anti-nietzsche.

I do not believe the Bible was written by men, but that God directed them to write out the story of His great love for us.

14But as for you, continue in the things you have learned and firmly believed, since you know from whom you learned them. 15From infancy you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. 16All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for instruction, for conviction, for correction, and for training in righteousness, 17so that the man of God may be complete, fully equipped for every good work. 2 Timothy 3:14 - 17

As eaglesway always says, either it is all true or none of it is true. And, as Rose said, sometimes it is interpreted poorly, but we cannot yet understand all these things fully, right now, and sometimes we do error.

11 When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child; but when I became a man, I put away childish things. 12 For now we see in a mirror, dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part, but then I shall know just as I also am known. 1 Corinthians 13:11 - 12

The Holy Spirit will certainly help us to understand it, but He will not contradict the Bible.

For the word of God is alive and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart. Hebrews 4:12

Though there are aspects of law in the Bible, I believe the Bible is the story of our Salvation. Law was a part of that story, but only in how it fits into the plan of salvation. And what a beautiful story it is.....

...4Who has ascended into heaven and descended? Who has gathered the wind in His fists? Who has wrapped the waters in His garment? Who has established all the ends of the earth? What is His name or His son's name? Surely you know! 5Every word of God is tested; He is a shield to those who take refuge in Him. 6Do not add to His words Or He will reprove you, and you will be proved a liar....Proverbs 30:5

And, as jabcat and eaglesway say, we are not here, on this site, to dispute the Bible, but to learn, so that we might spread the glorious story of everyone's redemption, by the cross of Jesus.

When you think about, how could all these men create a story so beautifully interwoven, through all those thousands of years? They did not know what would come after them, and how God would manifest himself throughout history. Yet, the Bible tells of the unfolding of the promises, gifts, mistakes and so on, of God's people, and in doing so, teaches us of His
plan for mankind.

My thoughts.... :2c:

D.

What I find is that in Christ, especially in his words about the New Covenant, it is about spirit much more than about letters. The bible actually says this, "The letter kills but the spirit gives life." I believe the bible is rather real about this and in this the book is trustworthy and not just inspired but also inspiring to us. But as such the bible includes lot's of text where things were not about spirit but about the letter, where the book tries us to get right with God on the basis of commandments that did not manage to save man from sin, so much that in the end we were killed by the commandment and that the law became the power of sin. Now we have to ask ourselves, why is that? And my answer would be, because the people of God had sought to erect their own righteousness and were therefor not spiritual enough. But they sincerely believed they were doing God service and were the righteous ones among the nations and peoples on the Earth. This bad paradigm shows itself throughout the entire old Testament. Christ had to come and the marvelous thing is that in his coming he fulfilled and explained the old Testament. Who would have thought that words like "Put the refuse outside of the city" and "none of his bones shall be broken" would be fulfilled in Christ's sacrifice. In terms of the old Testament in the way the Jews read it, Christ is a stumbling block, but in terms of the spirit Christ is a Savior and Redeemer.

In a way the New Testament and the Old Testament (as long as we read it as binding law) are fighting with each other. SOME law righteousness is necessary, and we would find that the law on the tablets supercedes the handwritten law (encompassing law and prophets). "Do not steal" and "do not lie" and "do not kill" are lifegiving and spiritual laws, and we might take note that the other peoples of the world in the time of the Israelites also had such laws. They are universal and fit perfectly to our conscience. They are written unto our hearts. And again because of them, I reject the notion that the God who has always been love actually wanted to engage in warfare, not even to punish the Jews. And this is again replicated in scripture, for example in Isaiah which says "And God does not mean it and it is not in his heart" and then Isaiah continues "But it is in his heart to destroy". The jews were divided in themselves what to make of the babylonic wars, had they been so much worse than the others? Were the babylonians such good people? They did not yet get to an understanding of the Spirit that separates God from war and bloodshed. But hey, they sacrificed heaps of animals for their sins daily. It's normal that life didn't have such a big value for them and they thought God was having the same thoughts.

So basically, when Jesus critisizes the Jews for their way of thinking we must also be critical of the bible as this book describes the jewish thinking of the time. I believe that a honest christian must oppose the law of sin and death and instead follow the spirit. And as far as you are spiritual, you do not need so many commandments. We have the 10 commandments (God's law) and the two love commandments (Christ's law), and these commandments (or matters, as the hebrew originally said) are much better for us than the many laws of sin and death. We shall live and not die by God's things. We shall be lovers of man and God. We shall be spiritual and not fleshly people. The beginning of this new way has been spelled out by Paul, and we must continue there and not in the Old Testament thinkings like forgiveness cannot be done without bloodshed, that God hates those outside of the church, that the church is the new Israel, and so on. God included all of us into imperfection so He the perfect one can have mercy on us all.

Paul did write that the "letter [of the Law] kills [by revealing sin and demanding obedience], but the Spirit gives life" - Amplified Version

It is the "Spirit of Life in Jesus which sets us free from the law of sin and death" / sets us free from the law of frailty/flaw and mortality/death.. (Romans 8)

In context the letter, Paul was speaking of was the following of The Law which was the first covenant God had with Israel.. It was not meant as His salvation Plan, but as preparation for Messiah.. His swaddling cloths, so to speak..

Amen, Jesus said The Law.. keeping it perfectly even, outwardly.. was, and is not good enough! it's not simply don't murder.. but don't hate, dislike, hold a grudge.. not good enough to not commit adultery, as important as that is.. but don't keep looking at one not one's own mate with desire in the heart, for that is to commit the act in the heart..

The Law - with its stonings, etc. was given to tiny Israel.. I find myself assuming, so that there would be a place a little bit prepared for the coming of Messiah/Savior of the world.. which world, lies in corruption and dissolution.. Like all matter, it is falling apart, always. An adulterous person, may not any more be stoned, but it doesn't make adultery right and good.

All sins, the word/bible says is equal. How can that be? because all sin/imperfection/flaw/missing the mark only ever moves toward decomposition, death, and fading/dying/ceasing to be. Like gravity, it is a natural law. So none is stoned. Death is the result (penalty) of all imperfection, no matter how tiny it begins.. (I believe God is life, the life force itself, and also perfection.. hence imperfection is the opposite of life  - "in the day you eat of it you shall surely die/be dying". (Come under the natural law of decomposition/corruptibility.)

Men think and write all sorts of things, but the bible is the inspired word of God... the rule/measure of what's true and correct, and what's not. "Let my words abide in you"..

Some few word translations made by men and the doctrinal myth of hell, are present in some of our present translations, but the word as inspired by God is actually inerrant.. it's men's understandings of it and some few mistranslations - like "forever" and "hell" are yes, misleading.

http://studybible.info/strongs/G3056
λόγος
the word
Dodson:
λόγος
a word, speech, (divine) utterance

------------------------------

the utterance of God

http://studybible.info/IGNT/1%20john%205:7 - "1 John 5:7 - because three are who are testifying [in the heaven] the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit - (Young's Literal Translation)

the Father, the utterance, and the Spirit (Presence?) which guides to all truth by "bringing to remembrance"... If each person relied on their thoughts, etc. it would be very shaky ground, not conducive to the great peace and joy His Spirit of Life in Christ gives. "The heart is deceitful."

[ And the word isn't only all about me.. some of it occurs within, but God has a magnificent collective plan and design He is building and working out.. It's much bigger than simply my own redemption, but many stay in the mere milk of the Word not having the meat of abiding in His Word. - John 17:17 - "Thy Word is Truth."

Just because man misunderstands or misinterprets/mistranslates, doesn't mean we should throw the babe out with the bathwater.. We will only stagnate and not progress.. imo :hiya:
--------------------------------------------------------
And like 2 Thessalonians 1:8, Young's Literal Translation (YLT) - When He returns, He returns with angels and in flaming fire, giving vengeance to those not knowing God, and to those not obeying the good news of our Lord Jesus Christ;

Obadiah 15, New International Version (NIV)

15 "The day of the Lord is near
    for all nations.
As you have done, it will be done to you;
    your deeds will return upon your own head.

...the "wages" of sin... without Him we are destroyed.. individual and collective.. It may hurt as it is occurring.. but it has a far surpassing weight of glory, in that it is a foundation lesson aLL must learn.. otherwise, there can be no paradise/kingdom/perfection.. ( ? :dontknow: - experience is a hard teacher.. but it does teach. How would you, i, or anyone, go about creating a forever (perpetual) un-breakable paradise/perfection? - No rational creatures ever, imo, is the only other alternative. :mshock: )
just my :2c: :smile: Much love, and God bless!!

Quote from: rosered on August 25, 2016, 12:55:30 PM

It is our own understanding of it ,that is yet flawed    .

P.S. - [edit] "He will rule the nations with a rod of iron" - with Truth, a measure and rod of iron because it cannot be broken.. Truth breaks down all other things.. Only truth (in thought, word, deed) can remain standing. All else can only fall. "He will rule.." Hooray! :banana:

..also, very nice post Dandelion..

Quote from: anti_nietzscheWhat I find is that in Christ, especially in his words about the New Covenant, it is about spirit much more than about letters. The bible actually says this, "The letter kills but the spirit gives life."

"The letter kills" doesn't refer to all written text or mean that relying on a written text as reliable is unwise. The phrase "the letter kills" refers specifically to the law where, without the Holy Spirit, the law of Moses caused the sin within man to grow even stronger. The more the Law says not to covet, the more the sin within us increases coveting. (Roman 7).

But, the Spirit allows us to be free from sin by breaking the bond internally, which the Law was unable to do. So the whole phrase is "the letter kills but the Spirit gives life."

It has nothing to do with whether the Law, or any other part of scripture is infallible. I agree with others on this thread that it is reliable.

And that's where I was getting at Daniel.  Unless we hold the scriptures as trustworthy, then we can believe anything and twist things around to mean eveything - or nothing.  It's all just a slippery slope that stops nowhere except within man's imagination.  But that's not the way it is.  God doesn't want us imagining.  He wants us digging into His Word, not changing it, but letting it (in His fullness, by the Holy Spirit) change us.

The default (and required) position to be able to continue indepth discussion is here, and is a serious matter;

http://tentmaker.org/forum/rules-and-faq/moderatortm-expectations-regarding-the-scriptures/


That's why I asked.  It seemed as if much of what you were saying had no real basis in the facts of scripture, but were more of "the thoughts of man".  I encourage you to hold a higher respect for the scriptures, putting them in their proper place in your life.  Jesus is the focal point for sure, the Word Who became flesh.  He uses the Spirit to speak to us and guide us.  But the Holy Spirit and the written scriptures work together and will never disagree.  As several have said, it is our own understanding that gets in the way.  Lean not to our own understanding, the mind is enmity toward God, the heart is evil.  The solution to that is trusting and loving the Lord first, seeking Him - and part of what He uses in us to cleanse, mature, and guide us, is what David called the light of his path - "Your word".   

Prayers and :HeartThrob:

I don't think I can agree with anything that has been brought up here. Paul at one point remarked how even some of the psalms were considered as "law" for him. The whole bible contains much "law" as opposed to "GOSPEL". Gospel reveals God being love, law makes God into an executioner because our flesh gets in the way of keeping all laws perfectly, and without a perfect law keeping the whole affair of keeping one law is fruitless and becomes hypocritical and brings wrath and anger. That's why we must take the law from the bible and discard it (except for the law from the stone tablets as they were given from God himself and are written in our conscience, and except the love commandments that Jesus took as the greatest commandments for him). That's what I am getting at, the bible has so much law in it that the Gospel isn't always shining. And I do not believe that the harsh laws of the OT serve Christ's causes and our wellbeing. Some of that the church has already done by rejecting the executionary commandments.

But at other places the church actually failed in the process of deciphering right and wrong in my opinion, for example we could need Jubilee years for the poor and the Leaf Hut celebration to unite us to the Jews in some respect. Not all law is bad, that's not what I am saying, only the laws that posit commandments that are either violent and needless in themselves or which slander God and cause us not to be able to trust him, or which are simply unapplicable in modern life (like prohibiting women from becoming pastors and priests and bishops). Without such discernment Paul argues that we return to the flesh, because laws can't suppress it and actually spurn us in our fleshly being to hate and disregard people while we think we serve God.

I see in the bible a development, a progress, with Christ meaning the pinnacle of it. If people had had a perfect bible, Jesus wouldn't have needed to come. And it is He who is the word, the logos, and not this book that contains both good and bad things. The point is that the bible actually reveals this, from the logical contradictions that are present to the criticism of the law and how it was applied done by Jesus and Paul. Do you really think the mosaic Jew would have accepted Jesus saying that the sabbath was made for man and not man for the sabbath?

I read in the bible almost daily and parts of it serve as a book of worship to me that I must return to frequently. Some of the psalms work like that for me, some of the Gospels, some of the epistles, the book of Job, Proverbs, etc. But what I see is a development from ancient RELIGION to modern SPIRITUALITY. There is a change in how we think of God, we come from God being the Warrior King and the Judge to the God being Love. And obviously we can't mix the Warrior King with the Love. To try that is bound to fail because love and war contradict each other. At least I don't want my God of tender mercies being mistaken for something like a Warlord. Also the bible is no weapon for me, it is a devotional book that I return to in church services. The churches I go to do not use the bible anymore to inspire people to have the fear of hell and thereby suppress them or manipulate them. We neither glee with the early Israelites in the destruction of uncomfortable foreigners nor clap hands with Edom when Jacob's cities are brought down.

We do not form a new Israel that lives by the same old and much-critized (by Jesus and His Father) precepts, instead we make up a wandering hospital wherein everyone who is needy can draw from the founts of living water and find solace and support in Jesus Christ. That is my belief and I am honestly persuaded to it because of the virtue I perceive in God. I know I am not perfect either but, to quote Jesus using irony, "Therefor you shall be perfect, as your father in Heaven is perfect". The bible uses much irony like that and if that were finally acknowledged I would be much more happy about that than about that part of christianity that still believes God wants us to fight against "sin" so much that we gauge out eyes and cut off our limbs if that's what it takes to combat temptation. Only some are getting the irony and hyperbole in these things. Jesus could be very much of a philosophical argumenter in his time on Earth.

 

  DANIEL  :HeartThrob:
I  believe you have   a heart for God ,,,,,,,,,
I realize that Paul said I know nothing but JESUS CHRIST AND HIM CRUCIFIED    ,, 

   This was His life  mission and message of hope planting the seed of Christ in every heart and making alive rising up out of the  dead letter of the law  that kills   us all   

2 Corinthians 12New American Standard Bible (NASB)

Paul's Vision
12 Boasting is necessary, though it is not profitable; but I will go on to visions and revelations of the Lord.



2 I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago—whether in the body I do not know, or out of the body I do not know, God knows—such a man was caught up to the third heaven. 3 And I know how such a man—whether in the body or apart from the body I do not know, God knows—


4 was caught up into Paradise and heard inexpressible words, which a man is not permitted to speak.




5 On behalf of such a man I will boast; but on my own behalf I will not boast, except in regard to my weaknesses.


6 For if I do wish to boast I will not be foolish, for I will be speaking the truth;


but I refrain from this, so that no one will credit me with more than he sees in me or hears from me.


We have much to look forward too  , leaving those things of death behind us     ,,,  do not handle  or touch    or taste not ....

ALIVE IN CHRIST  :dsunny:    :HeartThrob:

Jesus blood has redeemed all men,no matter what state of darkness he may be in......Faith hope Love..it is a free gift and not dependant

on our works..but HIS[thank God for that!] All our [own] righteousness is filthy rags...He concluded all in sin in order to show mercy

  on all. no saint is better than the worse sinner...no flesh shall boast...all shall praise and exalt Our Father for the work of His hands.

   He started it and He will finish it.    He's made Atonement for all mankind..and given His spirit to help us.

  no one can snatch man out of the Hands of God..He will do His pleasure...and it is always LOVE directed..for our good.

   He knows our struggle better than we do. He loves every child just as much as He loves Jesus.

when all His work is done and perfection comes..you will find the spirit of man didn't fall far from the apple tree.


  So lift HIM up! exalt Him in your hearts ..with gratitude and thankfulness..that He would do for us what we are unable to for ourselves.

                                                                             

Quote from: anti_nietzsche on August 25, 2016, 07:34:10 PM
I don't think I can agree with anything that has been brought up here. Paul at one point remarked how even some of the psalms were considered as "law" for him. The whole bible contains much "law" as opposed to "GOSPEL". Gospel reveals God being love, law makes God into an executioner because our flesh gets in the way of keeping all laws perfectly, and without a perfect law keeping the whole affair of keeping one law is fruitless and becomes hypocritical and brings wrath and anger. That's why we must take the law from the bible and discard it (except for the law from the stone tablets as they were given from God himself and are written in our conscience, and except the love commandments that Jesus took as the greatest commandments for him). That's what I am getting at, the bible has so much law in it that the Gospel isn't always shining. And I do not believe that the harsh laws of the OT serve Christ's causes and our wellbeing. Some of that the church has already done by rejecting the executionary commandments.

But at other places the church actually failed in the process of deciphering right and wrong in my opinion, for example we could need Jubilee years for the poor and the Leaf Hut celebration to unite us to the Jews in some respect. Not all law is bad, that's not what I am saying, only the laws that posit commandments that are either violent and needless in themselves or which slander God and cause us not to be able to trust him, or which are simply unapplicable in modern life (like prohibiting women from becoming pastors and priests and bishops). Without such discernment Paul argues that we return to the flesh, because laws can't suppress it and actually spurn us in our fleshly being to hate and disregard people while we think we serve God.

I see in the bible a development, a progress, with Christ meaning the pinnacle of it. If people had had a perfect bible, Jesus wouldn't have needed to come. And it is He who is the word, the logos, and not this book that contains both good and bad things. The point is that the bible actually reveals this, from the logical contradictions that are present to the criticism of the law and how it was applied done by Jesus and Paul. Do you really think the mosaic Jew would have accepted Jesus saying that the sabbath was made for man and not man for the sabbath?

I read in the bible almost daily and parts of it serve as a book of worship to me that I must return to frequently. Some of the psalms work like that for me, some of the Gospels, some of the epistles, the book of Job, Proverbs, etc. But what I see is a development from ancient RELIGION to modern SPIRITUALITY. There is a change in how we think of God, we come from God being the Warrior King and the Judge to the God being Love. And obviously we can't mix the Warrior King with the Love. To try that is bound to fail because love and war contradict each other. At least I don't want my God of tender mercies being mistaken for something like a Warlord. Also the bible is no weapon for me, it is a devotional book that I return to in church services. The churches I go to do not use the bible anymore to inspire people to have the fear of hell and thereby suppress them or manipulate them. We neither glee with the early Israelites in the destruction of uncomfortable foreigners nor clap hands with Edom when Jacob's cities are brought down.

We do not form a new Israel that lives by the same old and much-critized (by Jesus and His Father) precepts, instead we make up a wandering hospital wherein everyone who is needy can draw from the founts of living water and find solace and support in Jesus Christ. That is my belief and I am honestly persuaded to it because of the virtue I perceive in God. I know I am not perfect either but, to quote Jesus using irony, "Therefor you shall be perfect, as your father in Heaven is perfect". The bible uses much irony like that and if that were finally acknowledged I would be much more happy about that than about that part of christianity that still believes God wants us to fight against "sin" so much that we gauge out eyes and cut off our limbs if that's what it takes to combat temptation. Only some are getting the irony and hyperbole in these things. Jesus could be very much of a philosophical argumenter in his time on Earth.

But the thing you didn't  mention is the role that the Holy Spirit plays and it's relationship to the Law. That's the missing ingredient in many discussions I see anout the Law. Paul said that "the Law is good and Holy but I am carnal, sold into sin."

The reason he told us to not seek righteousness through the Law is not because of anything wrong in either the parchments or the tablets. But, because he knew that the carnality within us wouldn't allow us to succeed in following it.

So Paul pointed to the Spirit to break the carnal slavery and set man free. The Law wasn't the problem. It was our old man that needed to die.

Well my friends we have to agree to disagree in this matter. I view the spiritual approach of Paul as justifying man over the demands of the Law, and setting straight our knowledge of God being light and not darkness. Sometimes Paul spoke like it was his habit as a Jew that he hadn't yet grown out of in Christ. That led him to prohibit women from having authority over a man and other things like that. Even in a religion like christianity that places value on unity and which Paul described as making up a body where everyone of us is a member, there are things like divergent beliefs and opinions. That mustn't be so bad because we're not a gang of robots that needs to be switched into all being the same. I read the bible and gain insights. If you really want to pursue the argument that the bible is inerrant, you would have to say something like, God included bad things in his bible that we would have a warning. Personally I see the bible not as my inerrant lawbook anymore but instead as containing also my Gospel of Christ, yet not fully. Jesus broke with all kinds of habits the Jews were having, just consider the many controversies about the Sabbath. In the end I don't believe that ALL law was given by God. When I speak in tongues God took time to explain to me how he is not as utterly consumed by the sin business as some christians still think. Christ's sacrifice can be explained as making an end to the whole "sin and death" theme of the teaching of God. We do need it still but God has other plans with us, plans to prosper and not to harm us, plans of love. In my opinion when we find the Gospel in the bible we can heartily agree with it and benefit immensely, but if we find Law in that book we need to be careful. Because, law is inflexible, it demands and demands and demands, and in their fear of God the weak parts of the body of Christ, and sometimes also the bossy members of our religion, fall prey to that Law stuff and that can cause immense suffering. Would God liberate us (and the Jews) from the law of sin and death only to imprison us again in it?

QuoteWould God liberate us (and the Jews) from the law of sin and death only to imprison us again in it? 

No, he would free us from sin and carnal slavery by giving us the Spirit so that we could walk according to it, and thus be free to uphold the love that the Law was hung upon.

That's what i was saying in my last response.

 Matt 22

The law was always  Love God first and your  brother as yourself ...it was easy to say you Love God whom you never seen  , but whom we see now Jesus made that  a reality     ....


36 "Teacher, which is the great commandment in the Law?" 37 And He said to him, "'You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind.'

38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' 40All the Law and the Prophets depend on these two commandments."...

Leviticus 19:18
'You shall not take vengeance, nor bear any grudge against the sons of your people, but you shall love your neighbor as yourself; I am the LORD.

Matthew 19:19
honor your father and mother, and love your neighbor as yourself.'"



Romans 13:8
Be indebted to no one, except to one another in love, for he who loves his neighbor has fulfilled the Law.

Romans 13:10
Love does no wrong to its neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the Law.

Galatians 5:14
The entire Law is fulfilled in a single decree: "Love your neighbor as yourself."

THE HOLY LAW  of LOVE ,  for me ,  has  always been  this , they go hand in hand .  You cannot love God   without loving the brethren, any more than you can   love the brethren with out GOD  IN YOUR HEART   ruling it  and the  fact being we are both  carnal and spiritually born   into   life and death ...
We know the carnal man never keeps the law of God  and never has nor ever will ,     and agree this man of sin has to be crucified   under the law  of death for the new man IN CHRIST   being renewed day by day  can LIVE ...

  1 John 4 Love Comes from God


...19We love because He first loved us.  :HeartThrob:

20If anyone says, "I love God," but hates his brother, he is a liar.

For anyone who does not love his brother, whom he has seen, cannot love God, whom he has not seen.

21And we have this commandment from Him: Whoever loves God must love his brother as well....


Everything begins to  fall in to place when we obey the law of Love written in our hearts by the Finger of God ....

Luke 11...19And if I drive out demons by Beelzebul, by whom do your sons drive them out?

So then, they will be your judges.

20But if I drive out demons by the finger of God, then the kingdom of God has come upon you.

Powerful  indeed , we are moved to  repent of all malice   and love our enemies  and praying in the  Holy  Spirit for all   to come into   CHRIST .   for in Adam all do die  the death , but in Christ all shall be made alive  , into the presence of  the LIVING GOD .   .. 

     :dsunny:  :HeartThrob:

Quote from: jabcat on August 25, 2016, 06:00:50 PM
And that's where I was getting at Daniel.  Unless we hold the scriptures as trustworthy, then we can believe anything and twist things around to mean eveything - or nothing.  It's all just a slippery slope that stops nowhere except within man's imagination.  But that's not the way it is.  God doesn't want us imagining.  He wants us digging into His Word, not changing it, but letting it (in His fullness, by the Holy Spirit) change us.

The default (and required) position to be able to continue indepth discussion is here, and is a serious matter;

http://tentmaker.org/forum/rules-and-faq/moderatortm-expectations-regarding-the-scriptures/

Wherever this goes you will be loved, prayed for, and anyone posting here will discuss anything really needed (true questions/honest seeking) by PM and/or email.  There's just a purpose and expectation for the public forums that doesn't include ongoing, consistent, indepth disregard/rejection of the scriptures or ongoing teaching of faulty doctrine built upon that particular approach.  (It's hard enough when we're searching within the scriptures, much more so when we attempt to create our own "standards").    Thanks.

 :thumbsup: :thumbsup: Jabcat (and also Seth)

I don't think I understand the problem, Daniel, of what is unacceptable to you in the Bible.. Not that I'm asking, it seems this thread/issue has run its course.. "God is love" and yes He loves all, but the Bible is also a history book which covers a barbaric age wherein the law "love each other" wold likely have been laughed at by the nations with their fierce city gods, I mean they even burned children alive as sacrifices to false 'gods'.. Yahweh has been nothing but patient.. but we reap as we sow.. both as individuals and as nations.. Should a despot who tortured and murdered millions simply be scot free of any penalties? And not reap what he sowed for and unto others? Ultimately they will be saved and purified of their evil and their dross.. And ultimately extremely thankful to be so. If every person made up their own standard of what's right and what's not.. what works and what simply cannot.. well, I guess that's what we have right now.. with all its death and suffering. (Imo, God's letting the ability to make choices to run its course, which course and results will prove God right about all things.) I think God's standards are infinitely better than man's.. I believe, the language of "punishment" vs(?) results and consequences, is so the Word can reach all mentalities, from the most barbaric to the most love enlightened.. Also, any good parent will curtail bad behavior - which will result in less than desirable fruit. We don't just let our children play in the road because we love them too much to raise our voice.. We are learning good from evil.

Well.. I guess that's about all, I just wanted to try to plant some last seeds on this issue. There's lots of 'education' which presents God of the Bible and the bible in a bad light.. "scoffers and scoffing in the last days". I do believe there is some truth in the indigenous religions.. sometimes built upon a truth someone found.. truth weaved in with error.. but Jesus is the one and only true way to the Father, not that He doesn't draw people, but He draws them to Jesus.. Jesus said "If I be lifted up from the earth" (on the cross) "I will draw all to me" John 12:32. Even if all stumble on the journey to that 'end'. God will have His way. :cloud9: :HeartThrob: God bless..

http://tentmaker.org/forum/rules-and-faq/moderatortm-expectations-regarding-the-scriptures/ forum requirement (which Jabcat has posted) is a VERY excellent read.. hoping for you the best..

I read most but not all of the comments so sorry if someone already said this but here is my opinon on some of what was said.

I do not have any beliefs against masterbation itself(it can be counterproductive if you are trying to gain some control over your sex drive in my experience even though it brings a short lived relief and it is not a need or required for health or sanity). Using women to masterbate to is a different matter. I think all the discussion about law is really moot.

It should also be kept in mind that some christians are probably sincere and have been relatively unbiased in these more "liberal" views of lust, etc but there often a lot of rationalizing going on. My personal experience has been that my ability to fool myself with rationalizations is simply incredible when it comes to pornagraphic stuff(it really seems like there is another person inside of me tricking me and conspiring against me) and it is more realistic to me just totally abstain until marriage and then to be completely focused on my wife after that(because why even look at other woman in such a way if you have a wife?). Justifications are the worst enemy of someone dealing with any form of immorality and I was very immoral in how I saw women and where fantasies took me. I have seen a christian "Godrules" on youtube who seems to advocate looking at some porn in moderation but I got the impression that he was just rationalizing his own problem and compromising(rather than seeking freedom from it).
 
Freedom can be had if a person believes that they can control themselves. But self control requires faith because a person will not try something they do not believe to be possible and we can not control ourselves by accident. What is so bad about "bouncing your eyes" and choosing not to masterbate or fantasize?

What profit is there in gawking at women who are not married to us?

I am not ashamed when I am unintentionally aroused by some woman(or find her attractive) but I do look away out of respect/compassion. I think voyeurism is disrespectful(in cases where the person is not consenting to it at least). How do you deal with problems of consent? I am not saying it is rape to gawk at a woman who does not welcome such behaviour but it is disrespectful, seems to be a violation of some kind, and against the golden rule in my opinion(at least if she is does not welcome that kind of attention).

I honestly don't care whether there are rules or not. What is the point to voyeurism? If we say that we can't have control of our sexuality then we are fooling ourselves and or have been fooled by others. I want people to be freed from the oppression of false belief and unbelief. Many people will see these kinds of statements as condemnation but I suspect that is just projection of their own condemning nature onto me. I speak against these kinds of thing because I want people to know we can control ourselves IF we believe we can and I wish people would have encouraged belief in self control rather than telling me(and other men) we are animals who can't and or shouldn't take control(and freedom) over impulses or compulsions. If anyone feels condemned by this then consider that you may be condemning yourself(and therefore reading that condemnation into this) because I have not condemned anyone here.

Also, Old Testament guys make terrible role models! lol We shouldn't look down on them but David, Solomon, etc were not without sin nor did every "Bible hero"(many are probably better categorized as anti heros) do everything right. Having hundreds or thousands of wives and concubines kind of makes you a jerk. lol How can a person be a good husband to many women? I am sure David, Solomon, Jacob, etc probably did better than I would in their shoes(I have probably done worse in my past anyway) so I don't look down on them. My point is that we should not consider something right just because the Bible records them doing it(the argument from silence is often weak anyway and we should not assume the bible condones all behaviour that it does not explicitly condemn)

Marie, it is true that our God really frowns on the sacrifice of children to other Gods. But did the OT prophets who watched this and wanted to get rid of it really find the right inspiration when they said the babylonic wars came from these sins and were a punishment from God? I mean, what do you know about war? It is not like the innocents are somehow protected in these wars. No, they would be drafted into the army of the king and could do nothing against it, and when a conqueror laid siege to a city and conquered it then, much like in the account of Moses, it could be that he would destroy the whole city for withstanding him. IE kill all people including little children and old men and widows and orphans, everyone really.

The Israelites did just the same in their Conquest of Canaan (if you read it literally). That is what I am questioning, and Christ legitimizes that because the OT prophet went after the sin and death principle - obey God or you die. Sometimes this just does not work out and if you look through the Gospels Christ is usually responding through words, judging and forgiving with his word, not using swords and violence. The issue is that when God would use war to bring punishment on the wicked, then this war kills the just together with the unjust and is a bad tool because of that. And since Jesus we know that God is light and not darkness. So in my view, a critique of the law of sin and death and exchanging it for Christ and the Spirit as our guides entails that we would also critique the bible where it promotes the law of sin and death. The bible itself seems to demand this in the New Testament where God is described as being good to both good and evil people.

We can interpret the law christologically, that is a good route to take but even then we must change our view of the law and disregard some of its precepts. Do you believe we still must kill adulterers? Why, if the law was so perfect in the bible let's kill them and be obedient to God. But nay, we cannot do this because we have come to see the value of every life. And we have come to see Light in God and not the darkness of stoning someone. That's essential for me because I do not want to let go of the Spirit and follow false conceptions of God. And these false conceptions are also in the bible besides many accounts that give a true portrayal of God.

I see it like this, in ancient times the Jews adopted the Law of Moses. It was not entirely from God and instead of speaking truthfully about it they ascribed it to God in order to set it through among a religious people that was respecting God. They wanted to be separate from the world and live in peace with God, but it was a heavily regulated peace. The Law helped them against rampant evil, but the price was that many people died and many people had to live in a real and dark fear of God. Look through the book of Job, this guy was innocent and yet the friends that had come to him saw no other way but to impute sin on him to explain his sufferoing. See where that leads, everyone who suffers is supposed to be far from God and must have committed an evil the Lord was punishing him for. But God then justifies the sufferer and makes him sacrifice for his friends who had represented the idea of God's justice that everyone believed in but had not understood the dilemma that this idea brought on those who were suffering.

If we want to get close to God then reading the bible is a must, but we must see it more as a witness of both human and divine things than a perfect witness of the truth. Sometimes it is a brilliant writing, like in the book of Job wherein there is enlightenment and great literary art in expressing human life with God and the adversity of satan and the bad ideas floating around. But sometimes the book does not glorify God, and that's a lesson for us who believe in God being Light and not Darkness. It's also an issue of righteousness by grace through faith - our faith cannot attach to an evil God, and that's why I place my faith in the loving trinity of Father, Son and Holy Spirit. But in order for being able to do that I must disregard the things that give God a bad name. That is part of living after the Spirit because the Spirit is the true God.

I add that there are ways to read these ancient accounts differently, just use some spiritual imagination and the knowledge that in the original Hebrew the old Testament can be read much more spiritually than our translated literal bibles allow it. Take for example the story of Noah. I do not think it is a literal and historical account of a worldwide flood that God sent to kill what were probably already billions of humans that He himself had made. Instead it is about a renewal in human life, a Spirit flood came which drove us instituting courts of justice in order to protect our lives from evil and crime. Noah was a preacher of man having to follow a righteous conduct, and his Ark was in fact a village or a wandering village of people that stuck to him. It must have been many people and Noah describes them like animals, he took anyone up who wanted to help and so there were clean and unclean people (in the understanding of purity that was normal at that time). The flood came and the world did not know what to do with it and reacted violently at first, so Noah and his Ark removed themselves and they hid with God's help. After some time though the world was settling in. Noah sent a raven and raven are known as birds of death. He returned without finding new land. (Noah had sent out a scout, not a bird, but that scout had knowledge of war and was able to find out that the people were still violent). Later Noah sent out a dove, a peace ambassador, maybe a girl, and she returned with an olive twig. Peace had come and people were beginning to accept the need of righteous conduct.

That's the stuff I get from the bible when I decipher it right and use spiritual imagination. But when I do not do that then I am left with a book that had God literally destroy most of mankind. Would that not be darkness instead of light? Would that not lead into evil rather then good? This is the question I would want to ask you and I hope you can see that I am not assailing our God with it. And if you come right down to it it is not assailing the bible either, only I use it as a sometimes difficult witness, not as a THOROUGHLY reliable guide. Jesus Christ himself, and Paul after him, had to take out the law and see it very differently than what had been the habit then. I am only doing what they are doing.

Quote from: anti_nietzsche on August 26, 2016, 12:04:33 PM





the bible ... must see it more as a witness of both human and divine things than a perfect witness of the truth. ...sometimes the book does not glorify God...I must disregard the things that give God a bad name..... we would also critique the bible where it promotes the law of sin and death...I am left with a book that had God literally destroy most of mankind. Would that not be darkness instead of light? Would that not lead into evil rather then good? ... the bible .. I use it as a sometimes difficult witness, not as a THOROUGHLY reliable guide..

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