could you describe an authentic case of demon possession for me?

[anti_nietzsche]

Okay. For me part of scripture is inspired and in the will of God, part is not. God had been active among the Israelites, but in the same way he had been active in the world and in other religions too. God is the Spirit and as such he graces everyone with life and sense and logos. Jesus Christ was the first and the Mightiest son of this Spirit. The bible is inspired, but not inerrant. Scripture is useful as a didactic tool about right and wrong and good and evil, but it can't usually be taken literally. This is especially true of the hebrew Old Testament that really begins to shine when you compare the different meanings of the words and what is hidden in the metaphors, names, symbolic speeches, etc. Translating that book has been a problem because translations only transmit a single thread of what was intended while in fact there is a whole tapestry to find. In Jesus' time the art of interpreting a book spiritually had become lost, the knowledge of God had decreased and accordingly God says, "my people perish for lack of knowledge". Most of the time a story in the Old Testament had depicted another real story that does not quite appear so in the literal reading of the text. You must use your imagination to get there where it is still possible. The bible is not just a collection of God's sayings but instead represents a collection of what men thought about God, some of them being holy and some of them not being so holy, and either way holiness doesn't equal infallibility. I also think the fact that there had been evil kings plays along with that because they suppressed the truth and the bible writers had to write in code and hid good things of God in expressing bad things about God. It is rather clear to me that there are errors in the bible, but that is to be expected when not God himself but instead "men of God" write a book. I do not believe God intended for us to be wholly dependent on a book taken as law, and actually expects us to decipher reality spiritually and keep close with God and learn from the Spirit directly.

God bless you!

[rosered]

 
I BELIEVE  the WHOLE WORD OF GOD IS PERFECT  , COMPLETE  and   GLORIOUS !!

It is our own understanding of it ,that is yet flawed    .

I will always believe this and no man can change my mind about that ...   many , many things are still sealed up  , because we are not prepared to receive them yet .

  Always remember,  that  it is GODS grace  that  gives the spiritual increase ...

  So many  still  remain spiritually discerned .... including myself  ,  but my hope and joy still remains in the LOVE OF GOD  reveling His   one of a kind Son ,in all of creation .   We wait on the  LORD  to bring to LIGHT the hidden things  yet to be released and made known 
  GOD IS PERFECT  IN ALL HIS WAYS  , ALWAYS HAS BEEN AND ALWAYS WILL BE ..    Have  your confidence in that   Living hope ..

  All things were made for him and though him AND HIS GLORY IS IN THE FATHER as we become ONE with them  and all that is being gathered into CHRIST  , THE LIGHT OF THE WHOLE WORLD .. THE LOVE AND KNOWLEDGE OF THIS  GLORIOUS LOVE  made known ..

COL 1 The Incomparable Christ
13 For He rescued us from the domain of darkness, and transferred us to the kingdom of His beloved Son, 14 in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.

15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. 16 For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through Him and for Him.

17 He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together. 18 He is also head of the body, the church; and He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that He Himself will come to have first place in everything. 19 For it was the Father's good pleasure for all the fullness to dwell in Him, 20 and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, I say, whether things on earth or things in heaven.

21 And although you were formerly alienated and hostile in mind, engaged in evil deeds,


22 yet He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death, in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach—

23 if indeed you continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel that you have heard, which was proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul, was made a minister.

How we think and speak determines     the power of  the  WORD  working  within us all    by His Spirit of Truth    and must be careful how we hear and speak .


GODS GLORY will be made known in the earth and it is  going to happen,   if you be  for Him  / gathering  into Christ or speak against Him /scattering  abroad ...

  :dsunny: :HeartThrob:  His Light and LOVE will remain ,  despite all efforts to destroy     the TRUTH ....   

[Dandelion]

Hi anti-nietzsche.

I do not believe the Bible was written by men, but that God directed them to write out the story of His great love for us.

14But as for you, continue in the things you have learned and firmly believed, since you know from whom you learned them. 15From infancy you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. 16All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for instruction, for conviction, for correction, and for training in righteousness, 17so that the man of God may be complete, fully equipped for every good work. 2 Timothy 3:14 - 17

As eaglesway always says, either it is all true or none of it is true. And, as Rose said, sometimes it is interpreted poorly, but we cannot yet understand all these things fully, right now, and sometimes we do error.

11 When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child; but when I became a man, I put away childish things. 12 For now we see in a mirror, dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part, but then I shall know just as I also am known. 1 Corinthians 13:11 - 12

The Holy Spirit will certainly help us to understand it, but He will not contradict the Bible.

For the word of God is alive and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart. Hebrews 4:12

Though there are aspects of law in the Bible, I believe the Bible is the story of our Salvation. Law was a part of that story, but only in how it fits into the plan of salvation. And what a beautiful story it is.....

...4Who has ascended into heaven and descended? Who has gathered the wind in His fists? Who has wrapped the waters in His garment? Who has established all the ends of the earth? What is His name or His son's name? Surely you know! 5Every word of God is tested; He is a shield to those who take refuge in Him. 6Do not add to His words Or He will reprove you, and you will be proved a liar....Proverbs 30:5

And, as jabcat and eaglesway say, we are not here, on this site, to dispute the Bible, but to learn, so that we might spread the glorious story of everyone's redemption, by the cross of Jesus.

When you think about, how could all these men create a story so beautifully interwoven, through all those thousands of years? They did not know what would come after them, and how God would manifest himself throughout history. Yet, the Bible tells of the unfolding of the promises, gifts, mistakes and so on, of God's people, and in doing so, teaches us of His
plan for mankind.

My thoughts.... :2c:

D.

[anti_nietzsche]

What I find is that in Christ, especially in his words about the New Covenant, it is about spirit much more than about letters. The bible actually says this, "The letter kills but the spirit gives life." I believe the bible is rather real about this and in this the book is trustworthy and not just inspired but also inspiring to us. But as such the bible includes lot's of text where things were not about spirit but about the letter, where the book tries us to get right with God on the basis of commandments that did not manage to save man from sin, so much that in the end we were killed by the commandment and that the law became the power of sin. Now we have to ask ourselves, why is that? And my answer would be, because the people of God had sought to erect their own righteousness and were therefor not spiritual enough. But they sincerely believed they were doing God service and were the righteous ones among the nations and peoples on the Earth. This bad paradigm shows itself throughout the entire old Testament. Christ had to come and the marvelous thing is that in his coming he fulfilled and explained the old Testament. Who would have thought that words like "Put the refuse outside of the city" and "none of his bones shall be broken" would be fulfilled in Christ's sacrifice. In terms of the old Testament in the way the Jews read it, Christ is a stumbling block, but in terms of the spirit Christ is a Savior and Redeemer.

In a way the New Testament and the Old Testament (as long as we read it as binding law) are fighting with each other. SOME law righteousness is necessary, and we would find that the law on the tablets supercedes the handwritten law (encompassing law and prophets). "Do not steal" and "do not lie" and "do not kill" are lifegiving and spiritual laws, and we might take note that the other peoples of the world in the time of the Israelites also had such laws. They are universal and fit perfectly to our conscience. They are written unto our hearts. And again because of them, I reject the notion that the God who has always been love actually wanted to engage in warfare, not even to punish the Jews. And this is again replicated in scripture, for example in Isaiah which says "And God does not mean it and it is not in his heart" and then Isaiah continues "But it is in his heart to destroy". The jews were divided in themselves what to make of the babylonic wars, had they been so much worse than the others? Were the babylonians such good people? They did not yet get to an understanding of the Spirit that separates God from war and bloodshed. But hey, they sacrificed heaps of animals for their sins daily. It's normal that life didn't have such a big value for them and they thought God was having the same thoughts.

So basically, when Jesus critisizes the Jews for their way of thinking we must also be critical of the bible as this book describes the jewish thinking of the time. I believe that a honest christian must oppose the law of sin and death and instead follow the spirit. And as far as you are spiritual, you do not need so many commandments. We have the 10 commandments (God's law) and the two love commandments (Christ's law), and these commandments (or matters, as the hebrew originally said) are much better for us than the many laws of sin and death. We shall live and not die by God's things. We shall be lovers of man and God. We shall be spiritual and not fleshly people. The beginning of this new way has been spelled out by Paul, and we must continue there and not in the Old Testament thinkings like forgiveness cannot be done without bloodshed, that God hates those outside of the church, that the church is the new Israel, and so on. God included all of us into imperfection so He the perfect one can have mercy on us all.

[marie glen]

Paul did write that the "letter [of the Law] kills [by revealing sin and demanding obedience], but the Spirit gives life" - Amplified Version

It is the "Spirit of Life in Jesus which sets us free from the law of sin and death" / sets us free from the law of frailty/flaw and mortality/death.. (Romans 8)

In context the letter, Paul was speaking of was the following of The Law which was the first covenant God had with Israel.. It was not meant as His salvation Plan, but as preparation for Messiah.. His swaddling cloths, so to speak..

Amen, Jesus said The Law.. keeping it perfectly even, outwardly.. was, and is not good enough! it's not simply don't murder.. but don't hate, dislike, hold a grudge.. not good enough to not commit adultery, as important as that is.. but don't keep looking at one not one's own mate with desire in the heart, for that is to commit the act in the heart..

The Law - with its stonings, etc. was given to tiny Israel.. I find myself assuming, so that there would be a place a little bit prepared for the coming of Messiah/Savior of the world.. which world, lies in corruption and dissolution.. Like all matter, it is falling apart, always. An adulterous person, may not any more be stoned, but it doesn't make adultery right and good.

All sins, the word/bible says is equal. How can that be? because all sin/imperfection/flaw/missing the mark only ever moves toward decomposition, death, and fading/dying/ceasing to be. Like gravity, it is a natural law. So none is stoned. Death is the result (penalty) of all imperfection, no matter how tiny it begins.. (I believe God is life, the life force itself, and also perfection.. hence imperfection is the opposite of life  - "in the day you eat of it you shall surely die/be dying". (Come under the natural law of decomposition/corruptibility.)

Men think and write all sorts of things, but the bible is the inspired word of God... the rule/measure of what's true and correct, and what's not. "Let my words abide in you"..

Some few word translations made by men and the doctrinal myth of hell, are present in some of our present translations, but the word as inspired by God is actually inerrant.. it's men's understandings of it and some few mistranslations - like "forever" and "hell" are yes, misleading.

http://studybible.info/strongs/G3056
λόγος
the word
Dodson:
λόγος
a word, speech, (divine) utterance

------------------------------

the utterance of God

http://studybible.info/IGNT/1%20john%205:7 - "1 John 5:7 - because three are who are testifying [in the heaven] the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit - (Young's Literal Translation)

the Father, the utterance, and the Spirit (Presence?) which guides to all truth by "bringing to remembrance"... If each person relied on their thoughts, etc. it would be very shaky ground, not conducive to the great peace and joy His Spirit of Life in Christ gives. "The heart is deceitful."

[ And the word isn't only all about me.. some of it occurs within, but God has a magnificent collective plan and design He is building and working out.. It's much bigger than simply my own redemption, but many stay in the mere milk of the Word not having the meat of abiding in His Word. - John 17:17 - "Thy Word is Truth."

Just because man misunderstands or misinterprets/mistranslates, doesn't mean we should throw the babe out with the bathwater.. We will only stagnate and not progress.. imo :hiya:
--------------------------------------------------------
And like 2 Thessalonians 1:8, Young's Literal Translation (YLT) - When He returns, He returns with angels and in flaming fire, giving vengeance to those not knowing God, and to those not obeying the good news of our Lord Jesus Christ;

Obadiah 15, New International Version (NIV)

15 "The day of the Lord is near
    for all nations.
As you have done, it will be done to you;
    your deeds will return upon your own head.

...the "wages" of sin... without Him we are destroyed.. individual and collective.. It may hurt as it is occurring.. but it has a far surpassing weight of glory, in that it is a foundation lesson aLL must learn.. otherwise, there can be no paradise/kingdom/perfection.. ( ? :dontknow: - experience is a hard teacher.. but it does teach. How would you, i, or anyone, go about creating a forever (perpetual) un-breakable paradise/perfection? - No rational creatures ever, imo, is the only other alternative. :mshock: )
just my :2c: :smile: Much love, and God bless!!

It is our own understanding of it ,that is yet flawed    .

P.S. - [edit] "He will rule the nations with a rod of iron" - with Truth, a measure and rod of iron because it cannot be broken.. Truth breaks down all other things.. Only truth (in thought, word, deed) can remain standing. All else can only fall. "He will rule.." Hooray! :banana:

..also, very nice post Dandelion..

[Seth]

What I find is that in Christ, especially in his words about the New Covenant, it is about spirit much more than about letters. The bible actually says this, "The letter kills but the spirit gives life."

"The letter kills" doesn't refer to all written text or mean that relying on a written text as reliable is unwise. The phrase "the letter kills" refers specifically to the law where, without the Holy Spirit, the law of Moses caused the sin within man to grow even stronger. The more the Law says not to covet, the more the sin within us increases coveting. (Roman 7).

But, the Spirit allows us to be free from sin by breaking the bond internally, which the Law was unable to do. So the whole phrase is "the letter kills but the Spirit gives life."

It has nothing to do with whether the Law, or any other part of scripture is infallible. I agree with others on this thread that it is reliable.

[jabcat]

And that's where I was getting at Daniel.  Unless we hold the scriptures as trustworthy, then we can believe anything and twist things around to mean eveything - or nothing.  It's all just a slippery slope that stops nowhere except within man's imagination.  But that's not the way it is.  God doesn't want us imagining.  He wants us digging into His Word, not changing it, but letting it (in His fullness, by the Holy Spirit) change us.

The default (and required) position to be able to continue indepth discussion is here, and is a serious matter;

http://tentmaker.org/forum/rules-and-faq/moderatortm-expectations-regarding-the-scriptures/


That's why I asked.  It seemed as if much of what you were saying had no real basis in the facts of scripture, but were more of "the thoughts of man".  I encourage you to hold a higher respect for the scriptures, putting them in their proper place in your life.  Jesus is the focal point for sure, the Word Who became flesh.  He uses the Spirit to speak to us and guide us.  But the Holy Spirit and the written scriptures work together and will never disagree.  As several have said, it is our own understanding that gets in the way.  Lean not to our own understanding, the mind is enmity toward God, the heart is evil.  The solution to that is trusting and loving the Lord first, seeking Him - and part of what He uses in us to cleanse, mature, and guide us, is what David called the light of his path - "Your word".   

Prayers and :HeartThrob:

[anti_nietzsche]

I don't think I can agree with anything that has been brought up here. Paul at one point remarked how even some of the psalms were considered as "law" for him. The whole bible contains much "law" as opposed to "GOSPEL". Gospel reveals God being love, law makes God into an executioner because our flesh gets in the way of keeping all laws perfectly, and without a perfect law keeping the whole affair of keeping one law is fruitless and becomes hypocritical and brings wrath and anger. That's why we must take the law from the bible and discard it (except for the law from the stone tablets as they were given from God himself and are written in our conscience, and except the love commandments that Jesus took as the greatest commandments for him). That's what I am getting at, the bible has so much law in it that the Gospel isn't always shining. And I do not believe that the harsh laws of the OT serve Christ's causes and our wellbeing. Some of that the church has already done by rejecting the executionary commandments.

But at other places the church actually failed in the process of deciphering right and wrong in my opinion, for example we could need Jubilee years for the poor and the Leaf Hut celebration to unite us to the Jews in some respect. Not all law is bad, that's not what I am saying, only the laws that posit commandments that are either violent and needless in themselves or which slander God and cause us not to be able to trust him, or which are simply unapplicable in modern life (like prohibiting women from becoming pastors and priests and bishops). Without such discernment Paul argues that we return to the flesh, because laws can't suppress it and actually spurn us in our fleshly being to hate and disregard people while we think we serve God.

I see in the bible a development, a progress, with Christ meaning the pinnacle of it. If people had had a perfect bible, Jesus wouldn't have needed to come. And it is He who is the word, the logos, and not this book that contains both good and bad things. The point is that the bible actually reveals this, from the logical contradictions that are present to the criticism of the law and how it was applied done by Jesus and Paul. Do you really think the mosaic Jew would have accepted Jesus saying that the sabbath was made for man and not man for the sabbath?

I read in the bible almost daily and parts of it serve as a book of worship to me that I must return to frequently. Some of the psalms work like that for me, some of the Gospels, some of the epistles, the book of Job, Proverbs, etc. But what I see is a development from ancient RELIGION to modern SPIRITUALITY. There is a change in how we think of God, we come from God being the Warrior King and the Judge to the God being Love. And obviously we can't mix the Warrior King with the Love. To try that is bound to fail because love and war contradict each other. At least I don't want my God of tender mercies being mistaken for something like a Warlord. Also the bible is no weapon for me, it is a devotional book that I return to in church services. The churches I go to do not use the bible anymore to inspire people to have the fear of hell and thereby suppress them or manipulate them. We neither glee with the early Israelites in the destruction of uncomfortable foreigners nor clap hands with Edom when Jacob's cities are brought down.

We do not form a new Israel that lives by the same old and much-critized (by Jesus and His Father) precepts, instead we make up a wandering hospital wherein everyone who is needy can draw from the founts of living water and find solace and support in Jesus Christ. That is my belief and I am honestly persuaded to it because of the virtue I perceive in God. I know I am not perfect either but, to quote Jesus using irony, "Therefor you shall be perfect, as your father in Heaven is perfect". The bible uses much irony like that and if that were finally acknowledged I would be much more happy about that than about that part of christianity that still believes God wants us to fight against "sin" so much that we gauge out eyes and cut off our limbs if that's what it takes to combat temptation. Only some are getting the irony and hyperbole in these things. Jesus could be very much of a philosophical argumenter in his time on Earth.

[rosered]

 

  DANIEL  :HeartThrob:
I  believe you have   a heart for God ,,,,,,,,,
I realize that Paul said I know nothing but JESUS CHRIST AND HIM CRUCIFIED    ,, 

   This was His life  mission and message of hope planting the seed of Christ in every heart and making alive rising up out of the  dead letter of the law  that kills   us all   

2 Corinthians 12New American Standard Bible (NASB)

Paul's Vision
12 Boasting is necessary, though it is not profitable; but I will go on to visions and revelations of the Lord.



2 I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago—whether in the body I do not know, or out of the body I do not know, God knows—such a man was caught up to the third heaven. 3 And I know how such a man—whether in the body or apart from the body I do not know, God knows—


4 was caught up into Paradise and heard inexpressible words, which a man is not permitted to speak.




5 On behalf of such a man I will boast; but on my own behalf I will not boast, except in regard to my weaknesses.


6 For if I do wish to boast I will not be foolish, for I will be speaking the truth;


but I refrain from this, so that no one will credit me with more than he sees in me or hears from me.


We have much to look forward too  , leaving those things of death behind us     ,,,  do not handle  or touch    or taste not ....

ALIVE IN CHRIST  :dsunny:    :HeartThrob:

[sheila]

Jesus blood has redeemed all men,no matter what state of darkness he may be in......Faith hope Love..it is a free gift and not dependant

on our works..but HIS[thank God for that!] All our [own] righteousness is filthy rags...He concluded all in sin in order to show mercy

  on all. no saint is better than the worse sinner...no flesh shall boast...all shall praise and exalt Our Father for the work of His hands.

   He started it and He will finish it.    He's made Atonement for all mankind..and given His spirit to help us.

  no one can snatch man out of the Hands of God..He will do His pleasure...and it is always LOVE directed..for our good.

   He knows our struggle better than we do. He loves every child just as much as He loves Jesus.

when all His work is done and perfection comes..you will find the spirit of man didn't fall far from the apple tree.


  So lift HIM up! exalt Him in your hearts ..with gratitude and thankfulness..that He would do for us what we are unable to for ourselves.

                                                                             

[Seth]

I don't think I can agree with anything that has been brought up here. Paul at one point remarked how even some of the psalms were considered as "law" for him. The whole bible contains much "law" as opposed to "GOSPEL". Gospel reveals God being love, law makes God into an executioner because our flesh gets in the way of keeping all laws perfectly, and without a perfect law keeping the whole affair of keeping one law is fruitless and becomes hypocritical and brings wrath and anger. That's why we must take the law from the bible and discard it (except for the law from the stone tablets as they were given from God himself and are written in our conscience, and except the love commandments that Jesus took as the greatest commandments for him). That's what I am getting at, the bible has so much law in it that the Gospel isn't always shining. And I do not believe that the harsh laws of the OT serve Christ's causes and our wellbeing. Some of that the church has already done by rejecting the executionary commandments.

But at other places the church actually failed in the process of deciphering right and wrong in my opinion, for example we could need Jubilee years for the poor and the Leaf Hut celebration to unite us to the Jews in some respect. Not all law is bad, that's not what I am saying, only the laws that posit commandments that are either violent and needless in themselves or which slander God and cause us not to be able to trust him, or which are simply unapplicable in modern life (like prohibiting women from becoming pastors and priests and bishops). Without such discernment Paul argues that we return to the flesh, because laws can't suppress it and actually spurn us in our fleshly being to hate and disregard people while we think we serve God.

I see in the bible a development, a progress, with Christ meaning the pinnacle of it. If people had had a perfect bible, Jesus wouldn't have needed to come. And it is He who is the word, the logos, and not this book that contains both good and bad things. The point is that the bible actually reveals this, from the logical contradictions that are present to the criticism of the law and how it was applied done by Jesus and Paul. Do you really think the mosaic Jew would have accepted Jesus saying that the sabbath was made for man and not man for the sabbath?

I read in the bible almost daily and parts of it serve as a book of worship to me that I must return to frequently. Some of the psalms work like that for me, some of the Gospels, some of the epistles, the book of Job, Proverbs, etc. But what I see is a development from ancient RELIGION to modern SPIRITUALITY. There is a change in how we think of God, we come from God being the Warrior King and the Judge to the God being Love. And obviously we can't mix the Warrior King with the Love. To try that is bound to fail because love and war contradict each other. At least I don't want my God of tender mercies being mistaken for something like a Warlord. Also the bible is no weapon for me, it is a devotional book that I return to in church services. The churches I go to do not use the bible anymore to inspire people to have the fear of hell and thereby suppress them or manipulate them. We neither glee with the early Israelites in the destruction of uncomfortable foreigners nor clap hands with Edom when Jacob's cities are brought down.

We do not form a new Israel that lives by the same old and much-critized (by Jesus and His Father) precepts, instead we make up a wandering hospital wherein everyone who is needy can draw from the founts of living water and find solace and support in Jesus Christ. That is my belief and I am honestly persuaded to it because of the virtue I perceive in God. I know I am not perfect either but, to quote Jesus using irony, "Therefor you shall be perfect, as your father in Heaven is perfect". The bible uses much irony like that and if that were finally acknowledged I would be much more happy about that than about that part of christianity that still believes God wants us to fight against "sin" so much that we gauge out eyes and cut off our limbs if that's what it takes to combat temptation. Only some are getting the irony and hyperbole in these things. Jesus could be very much of a philosophical argumenter in his time on Earth.

But the thing you didn't  mention is the role that the Holy Spirit plays and it's relationship to the Law. That's the missing ingredient in many discussions I see anout the Law. Paul said that "the Law is good and Holy but I am carnal, sold into sin."

The reason he told us to not seek righteousness through the Law is not because of anything wrong in either the parchments or the tablets. But, because he knew that the carnality within us wouldn't allow us to succeed in following it.

So Paul pointed to the Spirit to break the carnal slavery and set man free. The Law wasn't the problem. It was our old man that needed to die.

[anti_nietzsche]

Well my friends we have to agree to disagree in this matter. I view the spiritual approach of Paul as justifying man over the demands of the Law, and setting straight our knowledge of God being light and not darkness. Sometimes Paul spoke like it was his habit as a Jew that he hadn't yet grown out of in Christ. That led him to prohibit women from having authority over a man and other things like that. Even in a religion like christianity that places value on unity and which Paul described as making up a body where everyone of us is a member, there are things like divergent beliefs and opinions. That mustn't be so bad because we're not a gang of robots that needs to be switched into all being the same. I read the bible and gain insights. If you really want to pursue the argument that the bible is inerrant, you would have to say something like, God included bad things in his bible that we would have a warning. Personally I see the bible not as my inerrant lawbook anymore but instead as containing also my Gospel of Christ, yet not fully. Jesus broke with all kinds of habits the Jews were having, just consider the many controversies about the Sabbath. In the end I don't believe that ALL law was given by God. When I speak in tongues God took time to explain to me how he is not as utterly consumed by the sin business as some christians still think. Christ's sacrifice can be explained as making an end to the whole "sin and death" theme of the teaching of God. We do need it still but God has other plans with us, plans to prosper and not to harm us, plans of love. In my opinion when we find the Gospel in the bible we can heartily agree with it and benefit immensely, but if we find Law in that book we need to be careful. Because, law is inflexible, it demands and demands and demands, and in their fear of God the weak parts of the body of Christ, and sometimes also the bossy members of our religion, fall prey to that Law stuff and that can cause immense suffering. Would God liberate us (and the Jews) from the law of sin and death only to imprison us again in it?

[Seth]

Would God liberate us (and the Jews) from the law of sin and death only to imprison us again in it? 

No, he would free us from sin and carnal slavery by giving us the Spirit so that we could walk according to it, and thus be free to uphold the love that the Law was hung upon.

That's what i was saying in my last response.

[rosered]

 Matt 22

The law was always  Love God first and your  brother as yourself ...it was easy to say you Love God whom you never seen  , but whom we see now Jesus made that  a reality     ....


36 "Teacher, which is the great commandment in the Law?" 37 And He said to him, "'You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind.'

38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' 40All the Law and the Prophets depend on these two commandments."...

Leviticus 19:18
'You shall not take vengeance, nor bear any grudge against the sons of your people, but you shall love your neighbor as yourself; I am the LORD.

Matthew 19:19
honor your father and mother, and love your neighbor as yourself.'"



Romans 13:8
Be indebted to no one, except to one another in love, for he who loves his neighbor has fulfilled the Law.

Romans 13:10
Love does no wrong to its neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the Law.

Galatians 5:14
The entire Law is fulfilled in a single decree: "Love your neighbor as yourself."

THE HOLY LAW  of LOVE ,  for me ,  has  always been  this , they go hand in hand .  You cannot love God   without loving the brethren, any more than you can   love the brethren with out GOD  IN YOUR HEART   ruling it  and the  fact being we are both  carnal and spiritually born   into   life and death ...
We know the carnal man never keeps the law of God  and never has nor ever will ,     and agree this man of sin has to be crucified   under the law  of death for the new man IN CHRIST   being renewed day by day  can LIVE ...

  1 John 4 Love Comes from God


...19We love because He first loved us.  :HeartThrob:

20If anyone says, "I love God," but hates his brother, he is a liar.

For anyone who does not love his brother, whom he has seen, cannot love God, whom he has not seen.

21And we have this commandment from Him: Whoever loves God must love his brother as well....


Everything begins to  fall in to place when we obey the law of Love written in our hearts by the Finger of God ....

Luke 11...19And if I drive out demons by Beelzebul, by whom do your sons drive them out?

So then, they will be your judges.

20But if I drive out demons by the finger of God, then the kingdom of God has come upon you.

Powerful  indeed , we are moved to  repent of all malice   and love our enemies  and praying in the  Holy  Spirit for all   to come into   CHRIST .   for in Adam all do die  the death , but in Christ all shall be made alive  , into the presence of  the LIVING GOD .   .. 

     :dsunny:  :HeartThrob:

[jabcat]

And that's where I was getting at Daniel.  Unless we hold the scriptures as trustworthy, then we can believe anything and twist things around to mean eveything - or nothing.  It's all just a slippery slope that stops nowhere except within man's imagination.  But that's not the way it is.  God doesn't want us imagining.  He wants us digging into His Word, not changing it, but letting it (in His fullness, by the Holy Spirit) change us.

The default (and required) position to be able to continue indepth discussion is here, and is a serious matter;

http://tentmaker.org/forum/rules-and-faq/moderatortm-expectations-regarding-the-scriptures/

Wherever this goes you will be loved, prayed for, and anyone posting here will discuss anything really needed (true questions/honest seeking) by PM and/or email.  There's just a purpose and expectation for the public forums that doesn't include ongoing, consistent, indepth disregard/rejection of the scriptures or ongoing teaching of faulty doctrine built upon that particular approach.  (It's hard enough when we're searching within the scriptures, much more so when we attempt to create our own "standards").    Thanks.

[marie glen]

 :thumbsup: :thumbsup: Jabcat (and also Seth)

I don't think I understand the problem, Daniel, of what is unacceptable to you in the Bible.. Not that I'm asking, it seems this thread/issue has run its course.. "God is love" and yes He loves all, but the Bible is also a history book which covers a barbaric age wherein the law "love each other" wold likely have been laughed at by the nations with their fierce city gods, I mean they even burned children alive as sacrifices to false 'gods'.. Yahweh has been nothing but patient.. but we reap as we sow.. both as individuals and as nations.. Should a despot who tortured and murdered millions simply be scot free of any penalties? And not reap what he sowed for and unto others? Ultimately they will be saved and purified of their evil and their dross.. And ultimately extremely thankful to be so. If every person made up their own standard of what's right and what's not.. what works and what simply cannot.. well, I guess that's what we have right now.. with all its death and suffering. (Imo, God's letting the ability to make choices to run its course, which course and results will prove God right about all things.) I think God's standards are infinitely better than man's.. I believe, the language of "punishment" vs(?) results and consequences, is so the Word can reach all mentalities, from the most barbaric to the most love enlightened.. Also, any good parent will curtail bad behavior - which will result in less than desirable fruit. We don't just let our children play in the road because we love them too much to raise our voice.. We are learning good from evil.

Well.. I guess that's about all, I just wanted to try to plant some last seeds on this issue. There's lots of 'education' which presents God of the Bible and the bible in a bad light.. "scoffers and scoffing in the last days". I do believe there is some truth in the indigenous religions.. sometimes built upon a truth someone found.. truth weaved in with error.. but Jesus is the one and only true way to the Father, not that He doesn't draw people, but He draws them to Jesus.. Jesus said "If I be lifted up from the earth" (on the cross) "I will draw all to me" John 12:32. Even if all stumble on the journey to that 'end'. God will have His way. :cloud9: :HeartThrob: God bless..

http://tentmaker.org/forum/rules-and-faq/moderatortm-expectations-regarding-the-scriptures/ forum requirement (which Jabcat has posted) is a VERY excellent read.. hoping for you the best..

[DanielB]

I read most but not all of the comments so sorry if someone already said this but here is my opinon on some of what was said.

I do not have any beliefs against masterbation itself(it can be counterproductive if you are trying to gain some control over your sex drive in my experience even though it brings a short lived relief and it is not a need or required for health or sanity). Using women to masterbate to is a different matter. I think all the discussion about law is really moot.

It should also be kept in mind that some christians are probably sincere and have been relatively unbiased in these more "liberal" views of lust, etc but there often a lot of rationalizing going on. My personal experience has been that my ability to fool myself with rationalizations is simply incredible when it comes to pornagraphic stuff(it really seems like there is another person inside of me tricking me and conspiring against me) and it is more realistic to me just totally abstain until marriage and then to be completely focused on my wife after that(because why even look at other woman in such a way if you have a wife?). Justifications are the worst enemy of someone dealing with any form of immorality and I was very immoral in how I saw women and where fantasies took me. I have seen a christian "Godrules" on youtube who seems to advocate looking at some porn in moderation but I got the impression that he was just rationalizing his own problem and compromising(rather than seeking freedom from it).
 
Freedom can be had if a person believes that they can control themselves. But self control requires faith because a person will not try something they do not believe to be possible and we can not control ourselves by accident. What is so bad about "bouncing your eyes" and choosing not to masterbate or fantasize?

What profit is there in gawking at women who are not married to us?

I am not ashamed when I am unintentionally aroused by some woman(or find her attractive) but I do look away out of respect/compassion. I think voyeurism is disrespectful(in cases where the person is not consenting to it at least). How do you deal with problems of consent? I am not saying it is rape to gawk at a woman who does not welcome such behaviour but it is disrespectful, seems to be a violation of some kind, and against the golden rule in my opinion(at least if she is does not welcome that kind of attention).

I honestly don't care whether there are rules or not. What is the point to voyeurism? If we say that we can't have control of our sexuality then we are fooling ourselves and or have been fooled by others. I want people to be freed from the oppression of false belief and unbelief. Many people will see these kinds of statements as condemnation but I suspect that is just projection of their own condemning nature onto me. I speak against these kinds of thing because I want people to know we can control ourselves IF we believe we can and I wish people would have encouraged belief in self control rather than telling me(and other men) we are animals who can't and or shouldn't take control(and freedom) over impulses or compulsions. If anyone feels condemned by this then consider that you may be condemning yourself(and therefore reading that condemnation into this) because I have not condemned anyone here.

[DanielB]

Also, Old Testament guys make terrible role models! lol We shouldn't look down on them but David, Solomon, etc were not without sin nor did every "Bible hero"(many are probably better categorized as anti heros) do everything right. Having hundreds or thousands of wives and concubines kind of makes you a jerk. lol How can a person be a good husband to many women? I am sure David, Solomon, Jacob, etc probably did better than I would in their shoes(I have probably done worse in my past anyway) so I don't look down on them. My point is that we should not consider something right just because the Bible records them doing it(the argument from silence is often weak anyway and we should not assume the bible condones all behaviour that it does not explicitly condemn)

[anti_nietzsche]

Marie, it is true that our God really frowns on the sacrifice of children to other Gods. But did the OT prophets who watched this and wanted to get rid of it really find the right inspiration when they said the babylonic wars came from these sins and were a punishment from God? I mean, what do you know about war? It is not like the innocents are somehow protected in these wars. No, they would be drafted into the army of the king and could do nothing against it, and when a conqueror laid siege to a city and conquered it then, much like in the account of Moses, it could be that he would destroy the whole city for withstanding him. IE kill all people including little children and old men and widows and orphans, everyone really.

The Israelites did just the same in their Conquest of Canaan (if you read it literally). That is what I am questioning, and Christ legitimizes that because the OT prophet went after the sin and death principle - obey God or you die. Sometimes this just does not work out and if you look through the Gospels Christ is usually responding through words, judging and forgiving with his word, not using swords and violence. The issue is that when God would use war to bring punishment on the wicked, then this war kills the just together with the unjust and is a bad tool because of that. And since Jesus we know that God is light and not darkness. So in my view, a critique of the law of sin and death and exchanging it for Christ and the Spirit as our guides entails that we would also critique the bible where it promotes the law of sin and death. The bible itself seems to demand this in the New Testament where God is described as being good to both good and evil people.

We can interpret the law christologically, that is a good route to take but even then we must change our view of the law and disregard some of its precepts. Do you believe we still must kill adulterers? Why, if the law was so perfect in the bible let's kill them and be obedient to God. But nay, we cannot do this because we have come to see the value of every life. And we have come to see Light in God and not the darkness of stoning someone. That's essential for me because I do not want to let go of the Spirit and follow false conceptions of God. And these false conceptions are also in the bible besides many accounts that give a true portrayal of God.

I see it like this, in ancient times the Jews adopted the Law of Moses. It was not entirely from God and instead of speaking truthfully about it they ascribed it to God in order to set it through among a religious people that was respecting God. They wanted to be separate from the world and live in peace with God, but it was a heavily regulated peace. The Law helped them against rampant evil, but the price was that many people died and many people had to live in a real and dark fear of God. Look through the book of Job, this guy was innocent and yet the friends that had come to him saw no other way but to impute sin on him to explain his sufferoing. See where that leads, everyone who suffers is supposed to be far from God and must have committed an evil the Lord was punishing him for. But God then justifies the sufferer and makes him sacrifice for his friends who had represented the idea of God's justice that everyone believed in but had not understood the dilemma that this idea brought on those who were suffering.

If we want to get close to God then reading the bible is a must, but we must see it more as a witness of both human and divine things than a perfect witness of the truth. Sometimes it is a brilliant writing, like in the book of Job wherein there is enlightenment and great literary art in expressing human life with God and the adversity of satan and the bad ideas floating around. But sometimes the book does not glorify God, and that's a lesson for us who believe in God being Light and not Darkness. It's also an issue of righteousness by grace through faith - our faith cannot attach to an evil God, and that's why I place my faith in the loving trinity of Father, Son and Holy Spirit. But in order for being able to do that I must disregard the things that give God a bad name. That is part of living after the Spirit because the Spirit is the true God.

I add that there are ways to read these ancient accounts differently, just use some spiritual imagination and the knowledge that in the original Hebrew the old Testament can be read much more spiritually than our translated literal bibles allow it. Take for example the story of Noah. I do not think it is a literal and historical account of a worldwide flood that God sent to kill what were probably already billions of humans that He himself had made. Instead it is about a renewal in human life, a Spirit flood came which drove us instituting courts of justice in order to protect our lives from evil and crime. Noah was a preacher of man having to follow a righteous conduct, and his Ark was in fact a village or a wandering village of people that stuck to him. It must have been many people and Noah describes them like animals, he took anyone up who wanted to help and so there were clean and unclean people (in the understanding of purity that was normal at that time). The flood came and the world did not know what to do with it and reacted violently at first, so Noah and his Ark removed themselves and they hid with God's help. After some time though the world was settling in. Noah sent a raven and raven are known as birds of death. He returned without finding new land. (Noah had sent out a scout, not a bird, but that scout had knowledge of war and was able to find out that the people were still violent). Later Noah sent out a dove, a peace ambassador, maybe a girl, and she returned with an olive twig. Peace had come and people were beginning to accept the need of righteous conduct.

That's the stuff I get from the bible when I decipher it right and use spiritual imagination. But when I do not do that then I am left with a book that had God literally destroy most of mankind. Would that not be darkness instead of light? Would that not lead into evil rather then good? This is the question I would want to ask you and I hope you can see that I am not assailing our God with it. And if you come right down to it it is not assailing the bible either, only I use it as a sometimes difficult witness, not as a THOROUGHLY reliable guide. Jesus Christ himself, and Paul after him, had to take out the law and see it very differently than what had been the habit then. I am only doing what they are doing.

[jabcat]

the bible ... must see it more as a witness of both human and divine things than a perfect witness of the truth. ...sometimes the book does not glorify God...I must disregard the things that give God a bad name..... we would also critique the bible where it promotes the law of sin and death...I am left with a book that had God literally destroy most of mankind. Would that not be darkness instead of light? Would that not lead into evil rather then good? ... the bible .. I use it as a sometimes difficult witness, not as a THOROUGHLY reliable guide..

Quoting the apparently ignored forum guidelines;   "Tentmaker is a Biblical, Christian, Victorious Gospel of Jesus Christ, Ultimate Reconciliation Site and Discussion Forum.  We recognize there are translational issues, as well as many different viewpoints, levels of understanding, and varying degrees of levels of Spirit-revelation within the scriptures.   However, our focus is WITHIN THE SCRIPTURES.   Accurately translated (as much as is currently possible), and the Spirit within the letters having been revealed to us, they are reliable.

Outright texual criticism is not an allowed topic or matter of discussion on the TM discussion forum.  It is seen as a divisive tool within the body, and not helpful to others' growth in the faith of Jesus Christ.  Also, repeated subtle, veiled references within posts that the scriptures are untrue, unnecessary [to whom they're available] or to be discounted in matters of belief and practice, are not only discouraged, but will be moderated based upon moderators' discretion. Continually ignoring these policies, or public criticism of moderators' decisions, will be subject to a ban from the forum. We will strive to be fair, respectful, and to have anything we do done with the love of Christ, but please see sentence #1 above.

  If anyone has any honest, searching questions about the validity of the scriptures (not just a repeated effort to cast doubt or trash them) any moderator will discuss that by PM and try to help you, and an honest, loving effort will be made to try to help you grow in the faith. 

There are many people that come through our community here that are either weak in the faith or have little-to-no faith at all.  They view our opinions, often print them to take with them, and a strong consideration is made as to how those "little ones" may be affected by our witness. 

Tentmaker Ministries' goal is to be a witness to the Ultimate Victory of Jesus Christ to the world, and a respect for the scriptures, which testify to His sacrificial life, death, and glorious resurrection, are a vital part of that message.

The Moderators of Tentmaker Discussion Forum"

------------
Any further posting that appears to be based on the above description will be edited, moderated, and if continued, will trigger at least a partial ban (read only, unable to post) from the forum. 

The thread is locked at least temporarily.  If anyone has anything they'd like to post that is absolutely addressing the OP, please PM and the thread can be considered to be re-opened.  Thanks.