Many evangelical groups—with Bible prophecy as a motivation—heartily support Israel and the building of a third temple. Some even send considerable sums of money each year for charitable causes in the nation. Similar to some in the Jewish community, they believe supporting Israel will help speed end-time events.
Quote from: RaiderGonzo on October 06, 2014, 04:37:02 AM
Many evangelical groups—with Bible prophecy as a motivation—heartily support Israel and the building of a third temple. Some even send considerable sums of money each year for charitable causes in the nation. Similar to some in the Jewish community, they believe supporting Israel will help speed end-time events.
I think it's based on a misunderstanding of prophecy. The temple is being built right now. It's you.
Amen :dsunny:
A Christian should not support any part of the Zionist Occupation Government. ZOG persecutes Palestinians, and some of them are Christians. Speed end-time events?! God has His own timetable. :doh:
Quote from: RaiderGonzo on October 06, 2014, 04:37:02 AM
Many evangelical groups—with Bible prophecy as a motivation—heartily support Israel and the building of a third temple. Some even send considerable sums of money each year for charitable causes in the nation. Similar to some in the Jewish community, they believe supporting Israel will help speed end-time events.
I think William Tapley mentioned on one of his youtube videos that the temple actually refers to the Vatican in Rome where the Anti Christ shall take his stage. According to Tapley, Lord Jesus will use Mary's Rosary to defeat the Anti Christ. As for the modern nation of Israel, Tapley believes that the Daniel 9 war precedes the Ezekiel 38 war and that the daily sacrifice was already removed from the prince back in April when Pope Francis granted communion to a divorced woman who remarried.
Quote from: Lazarus Short on October 06, 2014, 07:41:52 AM
A Christian should not support any part of the Zionist Occupation Government. ZOG persecutes Palestinians, and some of them are Christians. Speed end-time events?! God has His own timetable. :doh:
Sometimes, no many times I find your statements sound, and yet sometimes pretty strange. I for one left conspiracy thinking some time back. I love you friend Laz :dsunny:
Amos 5:18
Woe to you who long
for the day of the Lord!
Why do you long for the day of the Lord?
That day will be darkness, not light.
It will be as though a man fled from a lion
only to meet a bear,
as though he entered his house
and rested his hand on the wall
only to have a snake bite him.
Will not the day of the Lord be darkness, not light—
pitch-dark, without a ray of brightness?
"I hate, I despise your religious festivals;
your assemblies are a stench to me.
Even though you bring me burnt offerings and grain offerings,
I will not accept them.
Though you bring choice fellowship offerings,
I will have no regard for them.
Away with the noise of your songs!
I will not listen to the music of your harps.
But let justice roll on like a river,
righteousness like a never-failing stream!
Quote from: eaglesway on October 06, 2014, 08:25:37 AM
Amos 5:18
Woe to you who long
for the day of the Lord!
Why do you long for the day of the Lord?
That day will be darkness, not light.
It will be as though a man fled from a lion
only to meet a bear,
as though he entered his house
and rested his hand on the wall
only to have a snake bite him.
Will not the day of the Lord be darkness, not light—
pitch-dark, without a ray of brightness?
"I hate, I despise your religious festivals;
your assemblies are a stench to me.
Even though you bring me burnt offerings and grain offerings,
I will not accept them.
Though you bring choice fellowship offerings,
I will have no regard for them.
Away with the noise of your songs!
I will not listen to the music of your harps.
But let justice roll on like a river,
righteousness like a never-failing stream!
:Peace2:
Quote from: micah7:9 on October 06, 2014, 08:00:33 AM
Quote from: Lazarus Short on October 06, 2014, 07:41:52 AM
A Christian should not support any part of the Zionist Occupation Government. ZOG persecutes Palestinians, and some of them are Christians. Speed end-time events?! God has His own timetable. :doh:
Sometimes, no many times I find your statements sound, and yet sometimes pretty strange. I for one left conspiracy thinking some time back. I love you friend Laz :dsunny:
Dismissive mentions of conspiracy thinking do not cut it. What ZOG does now is being done in the light of day for all to see, save those who refuse to look. In this Information Age, little digging is needed to find your enemies. Finding real friends is harder...
Quote from: RaiderGonzo on October 06, 2014, 04:37:02 AM
Many evangelical groups—with Bible prophecy as a motivation—heartily support Israel and the building of a third temple. Some even send considerable sums of money each year for charitable causes in the nation. Similar to some in the Jewish community, they believe supporting Israel will help speed end-time events.
Well, I'm not Jewish, and I think there are some very wealthy Jewish folks who could "support" building the temple if they want to.
"Are you not aware that you are a temple of God and the spirit of God is making its home in you?" (1 Corinthians 3:16)
"And a temple I did not perceive in it, for the Lord God Almighty is its temple, and the Lambkin." (Revelation 21:22)
Quote from: Seth on October 06, 2014, 05:14:52 AM
I think it's based on a misunderstanding of prophecy. The temple is being built right now. It's you.
So all that preaching and teaching about the abomination of desolation type prophecy and the rebuilding of the temple during the end times is all just misunderstanding of scripture?
Quote from: RaiderGonzo on October 07, 2014, 04:39:59 AM
Quote from: Seth on October 06, 2014, 05:14:52 AM
I think it's based on a misunderstanding of prophecy. The temple is being built right now. It's you.
So all that preaching and teaching about the abomination of desolation type prophecy and the rebuilding of the temple during the end times is all just misunderstanding of scripture?
As the song by Procol Harum says, "...there's a lot of it about."
Quote from: Lazarus Short on October 07, 2014, 04:44:16 AM
Quote from: RaiderGonzo on October 07, 2014, 04:39:59 AM
Quote from: Seth on October 06, 2014, 05:14:52 AM
I think it's based on a misunderstanding of prophecy. The temple is being built right now. It's you.
So all that preaching and teaching about the abomination of desolation type prophecy and the rebuilding of the temple during the end times is all just misunderstanding of scripture?
As the song by Procol Harum says, "...there's a lot of it about."
I'm sorry, but I don't know the song; never even heard of it. Would you please expand on your reply?
Sure: Misunderstandings of Scripture - there's a lot of it about (or "around" if you're a Yank). That click?
Quote from: RaiderGonzo on October 07, 2014, 04:39:59 AM
Quote from: Seth on October 06, 2014, 05:14:52 AM
I think it's based on a misunderstanding of prophecy. The temple is being built right now. It's you.
So all that preaching and teaching about the abomination of desolation type prophecy and the rebuilding of the temple during the end times is all just misunderstanding of scripture?
The preaching and teaching on it I believe to be a misunderstanding of scripture, yes.
Quote from: Seth on October 07, 2014, 05:49:19 AM
Quote from: RaiderGonzo on October 07, 2014, 04:39:59 AM
Quote from: Seth on October 06, 2014, 05:14:52 AM
I think it's based on a misunderstanding of prophecy. The temple is being built right now. It's you.
So all that preaching and teaching about the abomination of desolation type prophecy and the rebuilding of the temple during the end times is all just misunderstanding of scripture?
The preaching and teaching on it I believe to be a misunderstanding of scripture, yes.
:thumbsup:
I'm getting a lot of short answers from all of you, but alright, I just thought I'd ask because I don't get into the Book of Revelation much, but there sure is a lot of end of the world is near preaching going on and the rebuilding of the temple seems to be at the center of end time prophecy according to some, so?
Quote from: RaiderGonzo on October 07, 2014, 07:48:43 AM
I'm getting a lot of short answers from all of you, but alright, I just thought I'd ask because I don't get into the Book of Revelation much, but there sure is a lot of end of the world is near preaching going on and the rebuilding of the temple seems to be at the center of end time prophecy according to some, so?
Hi Bro RG ,
We know the Lord Jesus predicted the destruction of Jerusalem to come shortly after His death and it did in 70 ad
Now the Lord warns us to always be ready for the coming of the Son of man , and for me , I believe every generation has its prophecies fulfilled
the Word of God is perpetual , which to me means , its like a circle , it never ends , because its beginning and end are the same [As the Lord is never changing ]
but has a constant beginning and ending in us occurring repeatedly; so frequent as to seem endless and uninterrupted.
As the old ones have said ,There is nothing new under the sun !
But in the Son we have all things new and a beginning like a circle , Did you know meeting them in Galilee means circuit or circle of Life Galilee (gal' ih lee) Place name meaning, "circle" or "region."
Jesus told his students /disciples to meet Him there , to me its a much deeper meaning than just a place of meeting
I hope this helps and does not add to more confusion for you
In the Sun /Son the 'Light of Day is the Son rising in your hearts JESUS CHRIST , that your whole house /within you ,will be full of Light and knowledge of God making you children of the DAY and Children of Light ,
this is the sign from the beginning two great lights two covenants
the moon and stars the Law of Moses and the prophets
and the SUN is the Lord Jesus Christ , when the Sun is in its strength and heat of the Day the moon and stars are present , but cannot be seen for the Brightness of His presence , the transfiguration is what I see as proof of this
I share this only because it blessed me so much and hope others will look into it , pray about it and see for themselves because ''all things are yours ''
Gen 1
14God said, "Let there be lights in the expanse of sky to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days and years; 15and let them be for lights in the expanse of sky to give light on the earth;" and it was so.
16God made the two great lights:
the greater light to rule/govern the day, and the lesser light to rule the night.
He also made the stars.
17God set them in the expanse of sky to give light to the earth,
18and to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness. God saw that it was good.
19There was evening and there was morning, a fourth day.
Quote from: RaiderGonzo on October 07, 2014, 07:48:43 AM
I'm getting a lot of short answers from all of you, but alright, I just thought I'd ask because I don't get into the Book of Revelation much, but there sure is a lot of end of the world is near preaching going on and the rebuilding of the temple seems to be at the center of end time prophecy according to some, so?
I believe in being supportive of Israel, as Abraham was told those who bless her will be blessed and those who curse her will be cursed.. and I've seen it happen.. (cursed that is)
Traditional bible prophecy seems to believe the anti-christ will sit in the temple, but I've not found that.. so they believe there has to be a third temple.. the verses I feel which most pinpoint Israel in final days is the end of Rev chapter 12 which is a history of the faith starting with Israel's 12 tribes, how Israel birthed Jesus, the dragon thru herod tried to devour the son of man but he is now at the right hand of God and will rule the nations with a rod of iron (unbreakable law/principle) - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation+12&version=NKJV
as rev 12 progresses the faith is persecuted (70a.d.) migrates (now the mantle worn by christianity) for a time, not as persecuted where the 1st for the most part migration was to, then there is war in heaven and the dragon&co no longer allowed access to heaven, enraged he persecutes/inquisitions the woman who is given the two wings of an eagle to fly (sail?) to a new place kept safe from the face of the dragon for 3.5 divisions of time.. at which time a proliferation of vomit/filth is vomited after the woman trying to wash her from off the earth - but the earth will swallow that flood (Lk 23:28,31"what will they do in a dry leaf") - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation+12&version=YLT
AND THEN, the dragon turns his attention back to the rest of the woman's offspring who have the commandments of God and (by now?) have the testimony of Jesus (Jesus said -
Jerusalem, you will not see me again UNTIL yoU say 'blessd is He who comes in the name of the LORD')
AND, Israel of course is surrounded by armies in final days (of man's system) Rev 16:14-15-16
That the antichrist calls himself 'god' I believe is due to man's theory of evolution which declares man to be the higher power... deciding good and evil, etc.. (and who will, imo, harness the power of the black clad vultures/beheadings). I see no evidence for a 3rd temple being pivotal to Bible prophecy..
I would not know the motives of others supporting the building of a 3rd temple, but to support Israel is Biblical to me, and I would never believe terrrist organizations and governments (propaganda) over Israel.. who has "fallen away for our salvation" - room for, that is.. time for - and if "their falling away is our saving, what will their being gathered into the faith be? (Paul wrote) but life from the dead?" i.e. His return and the 1st resurrection (rev 20- "this is the first resurrection")
I can't see that supporting it does any harm if that's what one wants to do.. but I don't think it affects God's timetable.. if that should be someone's motive..
:2c: God bless! :hiya:
I personally don't believe that the reestablishment of Israel has anything to do with being ethnically Jewish, and I don't think that being Jewish has anything to do with the flesh.
My biggest problem with this issue is when Christians tell other Christians that they could be harmed if they don't "support Israel" meaning throw their political alliance behind the modern state of Israel. I have a huge problem with that.
The Bible clearly states that Christ's faithful are not appointed to wrath (1 Thess 5:9), and that there is no condemnation to those who are in Christ who walk by the Spirt and not the flesh (Romans 8:1). Yet what do we hear from the pulpit? Support Israel or God will bring ruin upon America. Well, I live in America. Is that supposed to mean that Gods wrath is upon my own house for political reasons?
Christians have the blood of the Lamb painted on our doorframes, so when Christians start preaching destruction to other Christians who would rather be peacemakers than political rivals of specific nations, I believe it is they who better be careful about what they preach.
Jesus and The Apostles NEVER taught Christians to have a dog in Israel's fight. They never taught Christians to help overthrow Rome. They always taught peace and righteousness through grace and faith. And they taught us to do good to ALL MEN, especially the household of the faith.
Quote from: Seth on October 07, 2014, 05:33:41 PM
I personally don't believe that the reestablishment of Israel has anything to do with being ethnically Jewish, and I don't think that being Jewish has anything to do with the flesh.
My biggest problem with this issue is when Christians tell other Christians that they could be harmed if they don't "support Israel" meaning throw their political alliance behind the modern state of Israel. I have a huge problem with that.
The Bible clearly states that Christ's faithful are not appointed to wrath (1 Thess 5:9), and that there is no condemnation to those who are in Christ who walk by the Spirt and not the flesh (Romans 8:1). Yet what do we hear from the pulpit? Support Israel or God will bring ruin upon America. Well, I live in America. Is that supposed to mean that Gods wrath is upon my own house for political reasons?
Christians have the blood of the Lamb painted on our doorframes, so when Christians start preaching destruction to other Christians who would rather be peacemakers than political rivals of specific nations, I believe it is they who better be careful about what they preach.
Jesus and The Apostles NEVER taught Christians to have a dog in Israel's fight. They never taught Christians to help overthrow Rome. They always taught peace and righteousness through grace and faith. And they taught us to do good to ALL MEN, especially the household of the faith.
Good words! And I understand them to be true. :dsunny:
Quote from: marie glen on October 07, 2014, 04:26:03 PM
I believe in being supportive of Israel, as Abraham was told those who bless her will be blessed and those who curse her will be cursed.. and I've seen it happen.. (cursed that is)
OTOH, the same Scripture can be interpreted as applying to only Abraham, Israel and Judah being yet future at that time, and Jews (as we know them) many centuries away. Given what "Israel" is up to these days, I can't stomach the blessing for blessing thing...
Supporting others does not mean taking up arms.. Being against Israel is a whole other thing..
Since the Bible says we should do good to all men, we really can't be against anyone.
Quote from: Lazarus Short on October 07, 2014, 08:13:23 PM
Quote from: marie glen on October 07, 2014, 04:26:03 PM
I believe in being supportive of Israel, as Abraham was told those who bless her will be blessed and those who curse her will be cursed.. and I've seen it happen.. (cursed that is)
OTOH, the same Scripture can be interpreted as applying to only Abraham, Israel and Judah being yet future at that time, and Jews (as we know them) many centuries away. Given what "Israel" is up to these days, I can't stomach the blessing for blessing thing...
Israel has the right to exist and to not have missiles thrown at them.. the history since they were given the land at the Balfour Convention is not the anti-Israel crap we are fed.. Satan loves the terrorist nations and hates Israel.. What about the 6 day war? surrounded by five nations rejoicing at the idea of slaughtering Israel.. but Israel prayed to YHWH and won and that's when they won the west bank and gaza strip, a consequence of those nation's spirited aggression.. they did not move in and "occupy"
The reason there is a Palestine is because the huge Arab nations refused to take them in when they left Israel to allow the slaughter.. much more convenient to have them at unrest at the border.. and now set up missile sites among them
Three evil spirits like foul tasting frogs gathering the world to armageddon around and against Jerusalem.. to finally try and annihilate Israel (gateway, in the minds of jihadists to the rest of western civilization)
Quote from: Seth on October 07, 2014, 08:18:28 PM
Since the Bible says we should do good to all men, we really can't be against anyone.
:iagree: :iagree: :thumbsup:
except, I suppose, I am against Isis and all like them..! They are hurting many.. obviously demonic things occurring..
ISIS needs Jesus just like Israel. I don't think the Body owes anyone anything except to love their neighbors and to spread the ministry of reconciliation.
Even long before WW2 there was anti semitic propaganda.. to the point of saying Jews drank the blood of Christian children.. I actually saw some material like this back in the 80's when some acquaintances of mine swallowed the whole 10 lost tribes thing.. and how Jews were not really Israel, but were tares, the tares.. like all are holy but one ethnicity, good grief, but they certainly were not about to listen to me (however all tribes were numbered in the census by Nehemiah.. and Anna the prophetess/widow at the temple at Jesus's circumcision, for example was not from one of the two tribes of Judah; also when Cyrus said "let all Israel, in all my empire, go home, that empire included Assyria where the 'lost ten tribes' had been carried off to).
The acquaintance's marriage crumbled.. their health crumbled.. I figure (and witnessed) in their case, they actually embraced hatred of Israel, and any kind of hatred or anti-sentiment is very detrimental to one, but especially against fellow believers and yes against (imo) Israel who God chose to birth the son of God into the world, and who has been pursued and persecuted for centuries. There's a prophecy "I will avenge their blood which I have not avenged" or something like that which makes me think of that horror the holocaust, and where (some of) modern politics which has returned to being against Israel is headed.. Part and parcel of YHWH letting men's choices, even if limited, run their course.. (Just how will the black clad vultures rise to the top? in order to carry out Rev 20:4b? Oh I forget that's myth/analogy? won't happen..)
The valley of dead bones (Ezekiel) i believe is prophecy of the regathering of Israel to their ancient homeland... "when you see the fig tree leaf.."
Quote from: Seth on October 07, 2014, 08:47:09 PM
ISIS needs Jesus just like Israel. I don't think the Body owes anyone anything except to love their neighbors and to spread the ministry of reconciliation.
I cannot think that it can be 'wrong' to be against the actions of Isis.. or to have been against hitler, pol pot, stalin, and a whole host of others, under which millions of innocents, or that is everyday folks, suffered quite terribly..
I believe the Bible teaches that ALL sin is corrosive and destructive. Their marriage could have failed for the very presence of hate itself, regardless of who it was directed at. My personal opinion.
Quote from: marie glen on October 07, 2014, 09:12:33 PM
Quote from: Seth on October 07, 2014, 08:47:09 PM
ISIS needs Jesus just like Israel. I don't think the Body owes anyone anything except to love their neighbors and to spread the ministry of reconciliation.
I cannot think that it can be 'wrong' to be against the actions of Isis.. or to have been against hitler, pol pot, stalin, and a whole host of others, under which millions of innocents, or that is everyday folks, suffered quite terribly..
I am against the actions of anyone who hates and kills.
but Israel prayed to YHWH and won
Can Israel pray as a nation to GOD?
When a nation prays to God don't they need to pray to the same God.
As an American which God would you pray to
Protestant Jesus
Catholic Virgin Mary
Muslims Allah Sunni Shiite
Jewish orthodox
Jewish liberal.
As an individual can you represent a whole nation in prayer?
Quote from: marie glen on October 07, 2014, 09:12:33 PM
Quote from: Seth on October 07, 2014, 08:47:09 PM
ISIS needs Jesus just like Israel. I don't think the Body owes anyone anything except to love their neighbors and to spread the ministry of reconciliation.
I cannot think that it can be 'wrong' to be against the actions of Isis.. or to have been against hitler, pol pot, stalin, and a whole host of others, under which millions of innocents, or that is everyday folks, suffered quite terribly..
And by the way, if at any time Israel rounds up a bunch of people and slaughters them, I would be against that too, and would fear no reprisal from God because there is no condemnation for anyone who is in Christ who walks according to the Spirit.
Quote from: Seth on October 07, 2014, 09:45:11 PM
Quote from: marie glen on October 07, 2014, 09:12:33 PM
Quote from: Seth on October 07, 2014, 08:47:09 PM
ISIS needs Jesus just like Israel. I don't think the Body owes anyone anything except to love their neighbors and to spread the ministry of reconciliation.
I cannot think that it can be 'wrong' to be against the actions of Isis.. or to have been against hitler, pol pot, stalin, and a whole host of others, under which millions of innocents, or that is everyday folks, suffered quite terribly..
And by the way, if at any time Israel rounds up a bunch of people and slaughters them, I would be against that too, and would fear no reprisal from God because there is no condemnation for anyone who is in Christ who walks according to the Spirit.
Absolutely.. :thumbsup:
Amen
Quote from: dajomaco on October 07, 2014, 09:17:43 PM
but Israel prayed to YHWH and won
Can Israel pray as a nation to GOD?
When a nation prays to God don't they need to pray to the same God.
As an American which God would you pray to
Protestant Jesus
Catholic Virgin Mary
Muslims Allah Sunni Shiite
Jewish orthodox
Jewish liberal.
As an individual can you represent a whole nation in prayer?
I just read this a facebook friend posted.. it's her own words.. so i just had to come back and post it..
"Europe is raging with antisemitism while buckling under to sharia law... the Mideast is immersed in a blood bath... and we are apologizing to the leaders of the ideology that is making this happen.
As a student of history, I'm here to tell you this is NOT GOOD. WWII began in a similar fashion. When the world turns against the Jews and embraces madmen.... as their saviors..."
I have read much of the Koran..
I am personally very confused about this line:
Quote from: marie glen on October 07, 2014, 11:19:45 PM
When the world turns against the Jews and embraces madmen.... as their saviors
Is the opposite of that to turn TO the Jews as their saviors? What BOTH the Muslims and Jews have turned their backs on is JESUS.
Quote from: marie glen on October 07, 2014, 11:19:45 PM
Quote from: dajomaco on October 07, 2014, 09:17:43 PM
but Israel prayed to YHWH and won
Can Israel pray as a nation to GOD?
When a nation prays to God don't they need to pray to the same God.
As an American which God would you pray to
Protestant Jesus
Catholic Virgin Mary
Muslims Allah Sunni Shiite
Jewish orthodox
Jewish liberal.
As an individual can you represent a whole nation in prayer?
I just read this a facebook friend posted.. it's her own words.. so i just had to come back and post it..
"Europe is raging with antisemitism while buckling under to sharia law... the Mideast is immersed in a blood bath... and we are apologizing to the leaders of the ideology that is making this happen.
As a student of history, I'm here to tell you this is NOT GOOD. WWII began in a similar fashion. When the world turns against the Jews and embraces madmen.... as their saviors..."
I have read much of the Koran..
I think if you have won your freedom by WAR.
Then you must protect your freedom by WAR.
The best protection is Offence
Well, I think there are many gods in this world, but I pray to the living God who is the same God as the one written about in the Hebrew scriptures. That doesn't make me Jewish though. I was raised in the Roman Catholic Church, but that doesn't make me Catholic either because I left that church a long time ago. Catholics will tell you they don't worship Mary, but then why should they pray to her because scripture says her son is who is the only mediator between God and man? I say this being the son of a man who prays to Mary on his rosary everyday. I used to worry about him going to hell, but that was as crazy as the Catholic Church telling me my mom was going to hell for being a Methodist. Jews, Christians, and Muslims all claim to be children of Abraham, but scripture says not all his children of the flesh are children of God, only the children of the promise. We of the nations have been made joint partakers of the promise in Christ Jesus (Ephesians 3:6). I'm not "against the Jews," Muslims, Catholics, or Protestants "for it is not ours to wrestle with blood and flesh, but with the sovereignties, with the authorities, with the world-mights of this darkness, with the spiritual forces of wickedness among the celestials" (Ephesians 6:12). I think there are militants in many religions including all of the ones I've mentioned. Muslims are killing Muslims over who should take over for Muhammad, and he died a long time ago. The ones that seem to be causing the most destruction in the news these days are the Islamic State, but there seem to be bad vibes among some folks in all religions. I saw a YouTube video the other day of a Christian guy on the street in Israel getting mistreated by some orthodox Jews. There are some Catholics and Protestants that still hate each other in Ireland. I don't think any of these folks are doing what God told them to do.
"You will love your associate as yourself." (Leviticus 19:18)
"You shall love your associate as yourself." (Romans 13:9)
"You shall love your associate as yourself." (Galatians 5:14)
This I do not touch , but ask May the Lord Judge in His mercy for all concerned
loving your enemies means loving those whom hate you , what good is it to love your own ? everyone does that , and to choose sides shows partiality and respect of persons
and if the Adversary did rise against himself, and hath been divided, he cannot be made to stand, but hath an end.
Can you support Israel nationally and politically?
Or is Nationalism dead if you're a Universalist?
I think I pay plenty of taxes to support the USA. I'm not interested in supporting any other nation. I don't think believing in universal reconciliation has anything to do with politics.
The reason I ask that question Tom, is because a lot of folks believe that supporting a nation, such as Israel per say, is in fact supporting Bible prophecy. But if as like the Parable of Lazarus, the rich man did not live up to its part of the deal, and so the poor man became the beneficiary, how then can the "State" of Israel still be considered in the inheritance spoken about Biblically?
Paul prayed for Israel to find Messiah. He taught us to pray for those who are in authority so that peace would prevail through order so that the gospel could go forth. I don't think he instructed anyone to support the rebellions of the Jews against Rome, or to support geo-political initiatives to advance prophecies.
All such man- powered efforts lead to chaos, and God does use chaos to bring man to the end of his posturing and scheming and killing- but we are the solution only when we "see the kingdon" and pray, "Your kingdom come, Your will be done on earth as it is in heaven".
Seeing the signs of the times in geo-political events is a worthy thing, imo but seeking to put our hands to things that are too great for our understanding(except maybe unless specifically led by the Spirit in some prophetic way) is a recipe for heartache and disaster, imo.
Quote from: RaiderGonzo on October 08, 2014, 02:59:28 AM
The reason I ask that question Tom, is because a lot of folks believe that supporting a nation, such as Israel per say, is in fact supporting Bible prophecy. But if as like the Parable of Lazarus, the rich man did not live up to its part of the deal, and so the poor man became the beneficiary, how then can the "State" of Israel still be considered in the inheritance spoken about Biblically?
I think prophecy about Israel in scripture will come to pass, and I know God chose them for his special purpose. I'm glad they got their homeland back. I think it's sad they don't know their Messiah, but it's all according to God's will. A time will come when they will no longer be persecuted by their enemies surrounding them, and Christ will actually subject those nations from Israel.
There is a totally different Israel today.
The end times used to be as exciting as Hell.
I could ignore the guilt of not telling my neighbors about Jesus,
because God was coming and wiping them all out any way.
Then this terrible game of pretending to LOVE my neighbor as myself would be over.
Quote from: dajomaco on October 08, 2014, 03:25:36 AM
The end times used to be as exciting as Hell.
I could ignore the guilt of not telling my neighbors about Jesus,
because God was coming and wiping them all out any way.
Then this terrible game of pretending to LOVE my neighbor as myself would be over.
LOL "The end-times used to be as exciting as hell".... Great. Love it ;o)
Quote from: eaglesway on October 08, 2014, 03:32:00 AM
Quote from: dajomaco on October 08, 2014, 03:25:36 AM
The end times used to be as exciting as Hell.
I could ignore the guilt of not telling my neighbors about Jesus,
because God was coming and wiping them all out any way.
Then this terrible game of pretending to LOVE my neighbor as myself would be over.
LOL "The end-times used to be as exciting as hell".... Great. Love it ;o)
:rolllol: :rolllol:
I remember being a brand new Christian at 20 years old, and running into literature by Southwest Bible Church, a fundamentalist group dispensing radical "end times now" tracts and booklets.
I was in a panic for months. I was driving my (unbelieving) family insane. I was walking in fear not faith. I was making decisions based on false information. I became a wreck :o)
Now I am 60. I think during my walk I have seen several international "end times now"scares.
Well, when it all hits the fan I guess there will be someone standing around saying "I told you so!- but that wont mean they were really prophets or even knew Jesus.
There will always be people saying "That's it! That's the sign of the end" and surely it draws near, but
Simple math says there will be someone like those folks who freaked me out when I was 20 thumping their backs as if they brought it on by their faith- like the guys who were prophesying that Pheonix and Las Vegas were going to get destroyed by nuclear terrorism a few years ago. Big shots in the apostles/prophets movement getting major dough at Christians conventions to get believers all worked up and under there thumbs.
91:1 He who dwells in the secret place of the Most High
Shall abide under the shadow of the Almighty.
2 I will say of the Lord, "He is my refuge and my fortress;
My God, in Him I will trust."
3 Surely He shall deliver you from the snare of the fowler[a]
And from the perilous pestilence.
4 He shall cover you with His feathers,
And under His wings you shall take refuge;
His truth shall be your shield and buckler.
5 You shall not be afraid of the terror by night,
Nor of the arrow that flies by day,
6 Nor of the pestilence that walks in darkness,
Nor of the destruction that lays waste at noonday.
7 A thousand may fall at your side,
And ten thousand at your right hand;
But it shall not come near you.
8 Only with your eyes shall you look,
And see the reward of the wicked.
9 Because you have made the Lord, who is my refuge,
Even the Most High, your dwelling place.
"Woe unto you who say "The day of the Lord, the day of the Lord! For the day of the Lord will be to you like when a man runs from a bear and meets a lion"(Amos)
Get in the secret place of the most high! That's the solution to the end times!
"Fear not what they call conspiriacy, Fear me" says the Lord.
He is the only safety, the only clear word, the only sure refuge, the only victory.
Isaiah 8:12-13
"Do not say, 'A conspiracy,' Concerning all that this people call a conspiracy, Nor be afraid of their threats, nor be troubled. The Lord of hosts, Him you shall hallow; Let Him be your fear, And let Him be your dread.
GLORY!
Quote from: dajomaco on October 07, 2014, 09:17:43 PM
but Israel prayed to YHWH and won
Can Israel pray as a nation to GOD?
When a nation prays to God don't they need to pray to the same God.
As an American which God would you pray to
Protestant Jesus
Catholic Virgin Mary
Muslims Allah Sunni Shiite
Jewish orthodox
Jewish liberal.
As an individual can you represent a whole nation in prayer?
Blessed is the nation whose God is the Lord.
Rev 5
And they sang a new song, saying:
"You are worthy to take the scroll
and to open its seals,
because you were slain,
and with your blood you purchased for God
persons from every tribe and language and people and nation.
10 You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to serve our God,
and they will reign on the earth."
Quote from: eaglesway on October 08, 2014, 04:48:13 AM
Quote from: dajomaco on October 07, 2014, 09:17:43 PM
but Israel prayed to YHWH and won
Can Israel pray as a nation to GOD?
When a nation prays to God don't they need to pray to the same God.
As an American which God would you pray to
Protestant Jesus
Catholic Virgin Mary
Muslims Allah Sunni Shiite
Jewish orthodox
Jewish liberal.
As an individual can you represent a whole nation in prayer?
Blessed is the nation whose God is the Lord.
:happyclap: :happyclap: :happyclap: :happyclap: :happyclap: I believe WE who believe in the Savior of the World JESUS CHRIST who by His shed Blood is that nation. And WE are all over the planet, not in one area of people, not called by any international name.
Quote from: RaiderGonzo on October 08, 2014, 02:36:10 AM
Can you support Israel nationally and politically?
Or is Nationalism dead if you're a Universalist?
I would think it would be up to the individual and not wrong either which way.. the trouble with politics is the 'good guy' / 'bad guy' sentiment.. do this or don't do that, think this or don't think that ='s bad guy is played for votes usually.. not anything the body of Christ should be doing to each other..
as for me the support I was talking about in any of my posts is simply sentiment.. I can't see, personally, piling onto Israel or any nation for that matter, but personally I believe Israel is Israel.. gentiles are grafted into Israel.. showing they are still important to YHWH..
And sure someone can say all nations are important.. but Bible prophecy and history surely seems to revolve around Israel. And the capital of the new earth will be Jerusalem..
Paul wrote "if their falling away is your salvation" grafting in "then what will their being gathered into Christ be, but life from the dead?" ..the resurrection, at the return of Jesus..
I believe all nations are of the one family of God.. many beautiful branches.. but! this doesn't mean national borders and defenses have to be open to folks eager to chop off the ppl's heads.
"O watchman what of the night?" "woe to the watchman who sees the sword coming and warns not the city".. the people. -- Many folks in christianity seem to assume that talk about bible prophecy and end times means [1] they are eager for end times, or [2] they are afraid for their own skin.. But it just may be possible that is not their motivation.
:gsmile:
The boy who cried wolf caused a lot of trouble(for his Nation)
I will believe that end time prophesy is important for this generation.
When the subject is so serious that believers demand their money back
from the writers like Hagee with his wolf cry (Four Blood moons)
Quote from: dajomaco on October 08, 2014, 07:05:44 PM
The boy who cried wolf caused a lot of trouble(for his Nation)
I will believe that end time prophesy is important for this generation.
When the subject is so serious that believers demand their money back
from the writers like Hagee with his wolf cry (Four Blood moons)
:thumbsup:
Quote from: dajomaco on October 08, 2014, 07:05:44 PM
The boy who cried wolf caused a lot of trouble(for his Nation)
I will believe that end time prophesy is important for this generation.
When the subject is so serious that believers demand their money back
from the writers like Hagee with his wolf cry (Four Blood moons)
Hagee will say whatever pleases his Zio masters. He even denied Christ - saw it on a EweToob vid.
We Had a Blood moon this morning (here)
Vancouver Island.
Quote from: dajomaco on October 08, 2014, 08:13:07 PM
We Had a Blood moon this morning (here)
Vancouver Island.
Got up to see it here in Arkansas but to cloudy.
Israel's Rejection Not Final
11 I say then, have they stumbled that they should fall? Certainly not! But through their fall, to provoke them to jealousy, salvation has come to the Gentiles. 12 Now if their fall is riches for the world, and their failure riches for the Gentiles, how much more their fullness!
13 For I speak to you Gentiles; inasmuch as I am an apostle to the Gentiles, I magnify my ministry, 14 if by any means I may provoke to jealousy those who are my flesh and save some of them. 15 For if their being cast away is the reconciling of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead?
25 For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. 26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written:
"The Deliverer will come out of Zion,
And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob;
27
For this is My covenant with them,
When I take away their sins."
28 Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers. 29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. 30 For as you were once disobedient to God, yet have now obtained mercy through their disobedience, 31 even so these also have now been disobedient, that through the mercy shown you they also may obtain mercy. 32 For God has committed them all to disobedience, that He might have mercy on all.
--Romans 11
Is there something people don't understand about the word, IRREVOCABLE?
No believer in universal reconciliation could believe that their rejection is final.
Quote from: Seth on October 09, 2014, 08:14:14 AM
No believer in universal reconciliation could believe that their rejection is final.
Did you hear what God says:
but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathersThat means they are the beloved elect because this status is IRREVOCABLE.
Why would others calling themselves the elect not grant them the same consideration as God does?
They are our brothers in Christ.
Concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers:
2and all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea; 3and all ate the same spiritual food; 4and all drank the same spiritual drink, for they were drinking from a spiritual rock which followed them;
and the rock was Christ....--1 cor 10
Nehemiah 9:20
You gave your good Spirit to instruct them. You did not withhold your manna from their mouths, and you gave them water for their thirst.
For they were drinking from a spiritual rock which followed them
Surely goodness and mercy shall follow me
All the days of my life;
And I will dwell in the house of the Lord
Forever.
--Psalm 23
15 For if their being cast away is the reconciling of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead?
26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written:
"The Deliverer will come out of Zion,
And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob;
27
For this is My covenant with them,
When I take away their sins."
--Romans 11
Quote from: Molly on October 09, 2014, 08:21:26 AM
Quote from: Seth on October 09, 2014, 08:14:14 AM
No believer in universal reconciliation could believe that their rejection is final.
Did you hear what God says:
but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers
That means they are the beloved elect because this status is IRREVOCABLE.
Why would others calling themselves the elect not grant them the same consideration as God does?
They are our brothers in Christ.
Concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers:
2and all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea; 3and all ate the same spiritual food; 4and all drank the same spiritual drink, for they were drinking from a spiritual rock which followed them; and the rock was Christ....
--1 cor 10
Nehemiah 9:20
You gave your good Spirit to instruct them. You did not withhold your manna from their mouths, and you gave them water for their thirst.
I believe they are elected unto salvation too, after the fullness of the Gentiles is come in. And yes, they are loved by God. No disagreement. But they are not in Christ, in my opinion. They must believe and receive him before they are in Christ. Jesus says that his brothers are those who do the will of his father, those who obey.
Christ does not define his brotherhood according to the flesh, or according to genetics. Paul always called them Jews according to the flesh. That's what their covenant gave them. But without faith, they are not grafted to the tree, which is the true Israel. They are cut off of Israel for a time. The only way to be grafted into the tree is through faith.
Here are a couple covenants they were given
Exodus 19:5-6
Now IF you obey me fully and keep my covenant, THEN out of all nations you will be my treasured possession. Although the whole earth is mine, you will be for me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.' These are the words you are to speak to the Israelites."
Deuteronomy 28:2
IF you obey the LORD your God, here are the blessings that will come to you and remain with you. The LORD your God will make you his holy people. He will set you apart for himself. He took an oath and promised to do that. He promised to do it if you would keep his commands and live exactly as he wants you to live.
I think that is why Jesus said that his brothers are those who obey God, not simply those who are born with similar flesh.
Quote from: Seth on October 09, 2014, 09:19:38 AM
Quote from: Molly on October 09, 2014, 08:21:26 AM
Quote from: Seth on October 09, 2014, 08:14:14 AM
No believer in universal reconciliation could believe that their rejection is final.
Did you hear what God says:
but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers
That means they are the beloved elect because this status is IRREVOCABLE.
Why would others calling themselves the elect not grant them the same consideration as God does?
They are our brothers in Christ.
Concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers:
2and all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea; 3and all ate the same spiritual food; 4and all drank the same spiritual drink, for they were drinking from a spiritual rock which followed them; and the rock was Christ....
--1 cor 10
Nehemiah 9:20
You gave your good Spirit to instruct them. You did not withhold your manna from their mouths, and you gave them water for their thirst.
I believe they are elected unto salvation too, after the fullness of the Gentiles is come in. And yes, they are loved by God. No disagreement. But they are not in Christ, in my opinion. They must believe and receive him before they are in Christ. Jesus says that his brothers are those who do the will of his father, those who obey.
Christ does not define his brotherhood according to the flesh, or according to genetics. Paul always called them Jews according to the flesh. That's what their covenant gave them. But without faith, they are not grafted to the tree, which is the true Israel. They are cut off of Israel for a time. The only way to be grafted into the tree is through faith.
It depends how you look at it. There are Jews who believe in YHWH but have rejected Christ as their Messiah. Who is YHWH and what does he promise them?
31"The sun will be turned into darkness And the moon into blood Before the great and awesome day of the LORD comes. 32"And it will come about that
whoever calls on the name of the LORD [YHWH] Will be delivered; For on Mount Zion and in Jerusalem There will be those who escape, As the LORD has said, Even among the survivors whom the LORD calls.
--Joel 2
They are partially blinded for our sakes, but they have faith in the same God we do.
Does not a rose by any other name smell as sweet?
It's a different dispensation in God's plan. Like you said they will be unbelieving that Jesus is their Messiah until the fullness of the Gentiles, at the end of the age. But, what happens then? Jesus will return because they will call on him to return. This is why Satan wants them all wiped off the face of the earth. Satan figures if they are not here to call for Jesus, He will not return.
37 "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing! 38 See! Your house is left to you desolate; 39 for I say to you, you shall see Me no more till you say, 'Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord!' "--Mat 23
This is the prophetic Psalm that Jesus is referring to in Mat 23:39.
I called on the Lord in distress;
The Lord answered me and set me in a broad place.6
The Lord is on my side;
I will not fear.
What can man do to me?
7
The Lord is for me among those who help me;
Therefore I shall see my desire on those who hate me.
8
It is better to trust in the Lord
Than to put confidence in man.
9
It is better to trust in the Lord
Than to put confidence in princes.
10
All nations surrounded me,But in the name of the Lord I will destroy them.
11
surrounded me,
Yes, they surrounded me;But in the name of the Lord I will destroy them.
12
They surrounded me like bees;
They were quenched like a fire of thorns;
For in the name of the Lord I will destroy them.
13
You pushed me violently, that I might fall,
But the Lord helped me.
14
The Lord is my strength and song,
And He has become my salvation
Save now, I pray, O Lord;
O Lord, I pray, send now prosperity.
26
Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord!
We have blessed you from the house of the Lord.27
God is the Lord,
And He has given us light;
Bind the sacrifice with cords to the horns of the altar.
28
You are my God, and I will praise You;
You are my God, I will exalt You.
29
Oh, give thanks to the Lord, for He is good!
For His mercy endures forever.
--Psalm 118
Well, when are "all nations" going to surround Israel [for us literal readers of the Bible]?
Quote from: Molly on October 09, 2014, 09:55:16 AM
They are partially blinded for our sakes, but they have faith in the same God we do.
Does not a rose by any other name smell as sweet?
Not according to Peter, I don't think.
Acts 3
22For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you. 23And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet,
shall be destroyed from among the people.Again, this is the sonship covenant that they were given. It was conditional.
That covenant was always predicated on obedience not genetics., otherwise God would have broken his word by cutting them off of the tree and not sparing the natural branches.
He warned them about this from day one. Circumcision was always required to be considered part of God's chosen people
Genesis 17:14
And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised,
that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken my covenant.
Christians tend to assume that being part of God's people was just an automatic thing. But you can see here, again, that covenant
was always based on obedience.It wasn't about your genes, but about who God counted to be the seed based on obedience to his covenant. when attempting to show yourself to be a Jew, the first thing they wanted to know is if you were circumcised. Today it is no different, obedience to circumcision is still required, but it's no longer according to the flesh.
Romans 2
28 But he is not a Jew which is one outwardly. Neither is circumcision which is outward according to the flesh. 29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.
In other words, circumcision is no longer outward. Therefore, if you are ONLY circumcised in the flesh, it's like you are not circumcised AT ALL, because circumcision is not according to the flesh at all.
So obedience to the covenant is still required to be a Jew, meaning circumcision by the Spirit, which Christians these days seem to not accept. But that is exactly why Paul continues in Romans 9 with this:
Romans 9
6Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect.
For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: 7Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. 8That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God:
but the children of the promise are counted for the seedSo there is no question that the holy land was promised to Abraham and his seed. That's unconditional. The question is, who are the seed. That IS conditional, and is based on who God counts to the be the seed. That is why God did not break his promise to Abraham, by not including Ishmael in the land deed,
even though Ishmael was technically Abraham's seed. By further defining the seed through Isaac, God was proving to us that the identity of the seed is who he COUNTED to be the seed, not simply who is genetically descended, and therefore that identity is conditional.
Therefore, via Galatians 3, Jesus Christ himself is the true inheritor of the Holy Land, and his followers are counted for the seed. That is why in Romans 11, the election Paul refers to is the unconditional promise that ungodliness would eventually be turned away from them. That is their irrevocable calling.
QuoteWell, when are "all nations" going to surround Israel [for us literal readers of the Bible]
Since I believe that those who are counted for the seed are the children of the promise, I would say that the nations surrounded Israel when the children of the flesh persecuted them.
For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.
They are the gifts of God.
Not the gifts of man.
The so called profits say there is nothing else that has to happen before Christ returns and starts the end of days.
For the last hundred years one event after the other was the final sign.
Today's event, happens to be four blood moons
A few months ago it was a comet.
How many billions of dollars must the Christians spend to give the irrevocable gift of God.
The lie is that there something man can do to trigger the END
By definition, an irrevocable gift is that which is not predicated on conditions. That is why when Paul makes that statement, he refers to the unconditional promise that God will turn ungodliness away from Israel and that they would eventually be saved. However, I think the Bible clearly shows that the status of being God's chosen people has always been conditional based on obedience and not genetic heritage.
If genetic heritage was always a guarantee, Ishmael and his bloodline (the Arabs) have every right to the holy land. But God has always retained the right to define who qualifies as the seed of Abraham, and he does so in the New Testament. That qualification is based on specific conditions and always has been, in my opinion.
WOW
Good to see you Molly and Seth back as well! and Micah !! dajo all as we go into it !!
I love this and am thankful for you all to God for His blessing
We realize NOT all of Israel is Israel IS REAL right ?
and we all have perspectives as a view or prospect in the possibility or likelihood of some future event occurring.
For me to believe this very important clue Paul said plainly for us here today to understand is that not all Israel is HOLY Spiritual in nature but carnal still and another spirit is in operation the old spirit in man that opposes Jesus Christ called the Antichrist spirit
just as those , gentiles being all other nations are not of the Holy ONE and of another spiritual in nature either
the old spirit of the old creation does not know love of God though Jesus Christ , being the very gift of grace given by the Father for the world
because they still hate all other nations this kind of hate is the enmity against the HOLY SPIRIT and only love their own kind , not as humans mind you , only humans are capable of loving their own and not very good at even that .
Jesus Christ said to those whom desired to kill Him , forgive them Father for they do not know what they are doing
the spirit in them does not know the Love of God given to them by the gift of grace in Jesus Christ , they / those spirits that desire to be known as gods , reject the ONE TRUE GOD by not having a new Spirit of Jesus Christ in them to even be born again , they are of that old nature and creation of the wilderness
they will come in last because they will know in the end the Truth
What they believe is truth is still a strong delusion and the same spirit of slumber that was placed in Adams heart / mind when the Lord God
created Eve mother of all the living out of His side
and for me , this is just my understanding and only what I can get now is , until the Bride is complete and comes out of Jesus Christ side that was hidden in his bosom and come out by water and blood by the spears of those soldiers /spirits that oppose Him as Antichrists and can morn him in seeing whom they pierced , its was in Gods good mercies to do this and show us what man meant for evil God showed all of us the good to come from it
You see for me , ITS ALWAYS BEEN GOD THE FATHER THOUGH JESUS WOULD COME DOWN TO US AND DWELL WITH US and not us to go up to them but to be surrounded by the Heavenly hosts / angels and pillars of smoke and the fire of Gods consuming
always in His presence you can see the pattern of the wilderness and the tabernacle built in this place , and we know the world is a wilderness full of dangers and wanderings and where the faith of them all are tested all the children of Israel died there , till those generations died and were no more
we also in the same manner die that same way according to the pattern all things are yours , you will also die many deaths and seek a better Resurrection the Lord will raise you up again into the new and better and this can happen over and over again ,
Paul said I die daily , the DAY is the Lords Day and its a judgement to remit or retain hold you or let you grow stronger in truth and grace by the SPIRIT OF HOLINESS
blessed in the sight of the Lord are the death of His saints HOLY ONES they sure are raised up again into a better Resurrection this is what Paul was desiring and addressing in some scriptures , did you ever notice he was ever changing and growing in more truth and grace and not stagnating in one place ?
He looked though as glass darkly in one place and in another place He was speaking of being known as Jesus was known and face to face ?
and spoke with both the tongues of man and of angels ? and went on into more knowledge and revelation/revealing of Christ
Perfection comes by the inward working of the Holy Spirit and truth within your walls of salvation [Jerusalem the teaching of peace , Jesus peace the good news of the gospel for all mankind to be changed and made new creatures in Christ
here we can see what spirit is in a man that opposes and oppresses the HOLY SPIRIT till its taken out of the way
Testing the Spirits
1Beloved, every spirit believe not, but prove the spirits, if of God they are, because many false prophets have gone forth to the world;
2in this know ye the Spirit of God; every spirit that doth confess Jesus Christ in the flesh having come, of God it is,
3and every spirit that doth not confess Jesus Christ in the flesh having come, of God it is not; and this is that of the antichrist, which ye heard that it doth come, and now in the world it is already.
4Ye — of God ye are, little children, and ye have overcome them; because greater is He who [is] in you, than he who is in the world. 5They — of the world they are; because of this from the world they speak, and the world doth hear them;
6we — of God we are; he who is knowing God doth hear us; he who is not of God, doth not hear us; from this we know the spirit of the truth, and the spirit of the error.
Love Comes from God
7Beloved, may we love one another, because the love is of God, and every one who is loving, of God he hath been begotten, and doth know God;
8he who is not loving did not know God, because God is love.
9In this was manifested the love of God in us, because His Son — the only begotten — hath God sent to the world, that we may live through him;
10in this is the love, not that we loved God, but that He did love us, and did send His Son a propitiation for our sins.
11Beloved, if thus did God love us, we also ought one another to love;
12God no one hath ever seen; if we may love one another, God in us doth remain, and His love is having been perfected in us;
13in this we know that in Him we do remain, and He in us, because of His Spirit He hath given us. 14And we — we have seen and do testify, that the Father hath sent the Son — Saviour of the world;
15whoever may confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God in him doth remain, and he in God;
16and we — we have known and believed the love, that God hath in us; God is love, and he who is remaining in the love, in God he doth remain, and God in him. 17In this made perfect hath been the love with us, that boldness we may have in the day of the judgment, because even as He is, we — we also are in this world;
18fear is not in the love, but the perfect love doth cast out the fear, because the fear hath punishment, and he who is fearing hath not been made perfect in the love; 19we — we love him, because He — He first loved us;
20if any one may say — 'I love God,' and his brother he may hate, a liar he is; for he who is not loving his brother whom he hath seen, God — whom he hath not seen — how is he able to love?
21and this [is] the command we have from Him, that he who is loving God, may also love his brother.
these things can go on and on
we just know that we must be changed from the opposing Jesus Christ to allied the Gathering and siding as friends and family into Christ as all the new testament witnesses testifies to
in conflict or competition with a specified or implied subject.
"the opposing team"
synonyms: rival, opposite, enemy, antagonistic
"opposing sides in the war"
differing from or in conflict with each other."the brothers fought on opposing sides in the war" Ismael's the natural realm and the Issac's spiritual realm
Thinking differently , repenting always be ready to be more and more Like Jesus Christ the first begotten son of God in the new creation as His possession ... with a new regenerating seed/ word and Holy Spirit renewal this is without end
got a little long :sigh: sorry
God bless you, Rose. You remind me of myself when I get in that stream of consciousness mode. I just have to let it keep flowing; and I never feel like I say everything I want to; but I have to stop after awhile so folks don't get a headache.
Quote from: Tom on October 09, 2014, 07:55:31 PM
God bless you, Rose. You remind me of myself when I get in that stream of consciousness mode. I just have to let it keep flowing; and I never feel like I say everything I want to; but I have to stop after awhile so folks don't get a headache.
Exactly bro Tom !!
For me its the less said the better , but its not always easy to explain in the most simple of terms . :dontknow:
I seem to be a bit of a babbler and know some also understand or will .
a babbler a person who babbles.
2.
a thrush like Old World songbird with a long tail, short rounded wings, and typically a loud discordant or musical voice.
A group of
Epicurean and Stoic philosophers began to debate with him. Some of them asked, "
What is this babbler trying to say?" Others remarked, "He seems to be advocating foreign gods.
"
They said this because Paul was preaching the good news about Jesus and the resurrection :sigh:
I am so glad Paul kept persevering :thumbsup:
Quote from: Seth on October 09, 2014, 10:54:14 AM
Quote from: Molly on October 09, 2014, 09:55:16 AM
They are partially blinded for our sakes, but they have faith in the same God we do.
Does not a rose by any other name smell as sweet?
Not according to Peter, I don't think.
Acts 3
22For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you. 23And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people.
That is why he says, 15 For if their being cast away is the reconciling of the world, what will their acceptance be
but life from the dead?[Rom 11]
The Jews will be part of the first resurrection, which is why Jesus says to the high priest: YOU will see [me]...
61But He kept silent and did not answer. Again the high priest was questioning Him, and saying to Him, "Are You the Christ, the Son of the Blessed One?" 62And Jesus said, "I am; and you shall see THE SON OF MAN SITTING AT THE RIGHT HAND OF POWER, and COMING WITH THE CLOUDS OF HEAVEN." 63Tearing his clothes, the high priest said, "What further need do we have of witnesses?...
--Mark 14
QuoteAgain, this is the sonship covenant that they were given. It was conditional. That covenant was always predicated on obedience not genetics., otherwise God would have broken his word by cutting them off of the tree and not sparing the natural branches. He warned them about this from day one.
We cannot be obedient unless we are given a new heart [the heart of Christ] and unless the finger of God [the Holy Spirit] writes His laws on our new heart. That was the whole point of the Old Covenant--to teach us just that. But he makes a new Covenant with the house of Judah [Jews] and the house of Israel [Christians] where He [Y'shuah] does all the work. This happens first for the Gentiles, and at the end of the age, for the Jews. But the Jews were always part of the everlasting covenant promised to Abraham by God and this will be the fulfillment of the everlasting covenant.
31 "Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant
with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah— 32 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, though I was a husband to them,[a] says the Lord. 33 But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 34 No more shall every man teach his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, 'Know the Lord,' for they all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them, says the Lord. For I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more."
--Jeremiah 31
When he says, "with the house of...," He's talking about all of them.
God does not break His promises, which is why Paul calls them, IRREVOCABLE.
QuoteCircumcision was always required to be considered part of God's chosen people
And, it still is. First the natural, then the spiritual. He was talking, as you know, about circumcision of the heart, as a symbol of those who are partakers of the covenant. Only God can do this. He will not turn his back on His people forever, as the Gentiles have seen. God divorced the house of Israel so they will be the Bride of Christ. God never divorced the house of Judah. God is still married to Judah, He has just set her aside until the end of the Age--
You will not see me again until you say....QuoteGenesis 17:14
And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken my covenant.
Christians tend to assume that being part of God's people was just an automatic thing. But you can see here, again, that covenant was always based on obedience.It wasn't about your genes, but about who God counted to be the seed based on obedience to his covenant. when attempting to show yourself to be a Jew, the first thing they wanted to know is if you were circumcised. Today it is no different, obedience to circumcision is still required, but it's no longer according to the flesh.
Romans 2
28 But he is not a Jew which is one outwardly. Neither is circumcision which is outward according to the flesh. 29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.
In other words, circumcision is no longer outward. Therefore, if you are ONLY circumcised in the flesh, it's like you are not circumcised AT ALL, because circumcision is not according to the flesh at all.
So obedience to the covenant is still required to be a Jew, meaning circumcision by the Spirit, which Christians these days seem to not accept. But that is exactly why Paul continues in Romans 9 with this:
Romans 9
6Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: 7Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. 8That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed
So there is no question that the holy land was promised to Abraham and his seed. That's unconditional. The question is, who are the seed. That IS conditional, and is based on who God counts to the be the seed. That is why God did not break his promise to Abraham, by not including Ishmael in the land deed, even though Ishmael was technically Abraham's seed. By further defining the seed through Isaac, God was proving to us that the identity of the seed is who he COUNTED to be the seed, not simply who is genetically descended, and therefore that identity is conditional.
The seed is not you or me.
The seed is Christ:
The promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. Scripture does not say "and to seeds," meaning many people, but "and to your seed," meaning one person, who is Christ.That is why those who are in Christ are the seed. We are and so will the Jews know they are when God pours out His spirit on them at the end of the Age.
"I will pour out on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the Spirit of grace and of supplication, so that they will look on Me whom they have pierced; and they will mourn for Him, as one mourns for an only son, and they will weep bitterly over Him like the bitter weeping over a firstborn.--Zech 12:10
The literal inheritors of the Holy Land will be all 12 tribes of Israel, per the everlasting covenant given to Abraham. When Jesus returns, He will rule and reign from Jerusalem, literally.
16Then it will come about that any who are left of all the nations that went against Jerusalem will go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to celebrate the Feast of Booths. 17And it will be that whichever of the families of the earth does not go up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, there will be no rain on them. 18If the family of Egypt does not go up or enter, then no rain will fall on them; it will be the plague with which the LORD smites the nations who do not go up to celebrate the Feast of Booths.
--Zech 14
QuoteQuoteWell, when are "all nations" going to surround Israel [for us literal readers of the Bible]
Since I believe that those who are counted for the seed are the children of the promise, I would say that the nations surrounded Israel when the children of the flesh persecuted them.
[/quote]
That's a spiritual interpretation. Here's the literal, which you are seeing being set up and played out today in the Middle East:
The Destroyers of Jerusalem Destroyed
1Behold, a day is coming for the LORD when the spoil taken from you will be divided among you. 2For I will gather all the nations against Jerusalem to battle, and the city will be captured, the houses plundered, the women ravished and half of the city exiled, but the rest of the people will not be cut off from the city.
3Then the LORD will go forth and fight against those nations, as when He fights on a day of battle....
--Zech 14
He is going to fight the nations that come against Israel when He returns as the Lion of the tribe of Judah.
QuoteWe cannot be obedient unless we are given a new heart [the heart of Christ] and unless the finger of God [the Holy Spirit] writes His laws on our new heart. That was the whole point of the Old Covenant--to teach us just that. But he makes a new Covenant with the house of Judah [Jews] and the house of Israel [Christians] where He [Y'shuah] does all the work. This happens first for the Gentiles, and at the end of the age, for the Jews. But the Jews were always part of the everlasting covenant promised to Abraham by God and this will be the fulfillment of the everlasting covenant.
First of all, the first covenant was OLAM, not everlasting. The old covenant has faded and has no power to define the identity of God's people today. This is why the covenant of circumcision changed into no longer being valid according to the flesh.
I have no disagreement that we cannot be obedient unless God gives the new heart. But that proves that identity as God's people is according to ELECTION BY GRACE not genetic heritage.
QuoteWhen he says, "with the house of...," He's talking about all of them.
God does not break His promises, which is why Paul calls them, IRREVOCABLE.
Absolutely, the election is to eventual salvation. Not conditional. But being part of Israel is conditional and always was conditional.
Exodus 19:5-6
Now
IF you obey me fully and keep my covenant,
THEN out of all nations you will be my treasured possession. Although the whole earth is mine, you will be for me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.' These are the words you are to speak to the Israelites."
Deuteronomy 28:1-2
IF you obey the LORD your God, here are the blessings that will come to you and remain with you. The LORD your God will make you his holy people. He will set you apart for himself.
He took an oath and promised to do that. He promised to do it
IF you would keep his commands and live exactly as he wants you to live.
Conditional.
Jeremiah 9
Behold,
the days come, saith the LORD, that I will punish
all them which are circumcised with the uncircumcised; Egypt, and Judah, and Edom, and the children of Ammon, and Moab, and all that are in the utmost corners, that dwell in the wilderness:
for all these nations are uncircumcised, and all the house of Israel are uncircumcised in the heart.QuoteThe seed is not you or me.
The seed is Christ:
The promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. Scripture does not say "and to seeds," meaning many people, but "and to your seed," meaning one person, who is Christ.
That is why those who are in Christ are the seed. We are and so will the Jews know they are when God pours our His spirit on them at the end of the Age.
First, the fact that Christ is the he seed does not exclude believers from being counted for the seed. They are ONE with Christ, remember? They are children of the promise, the seed of Abraham as the Bible clearly teaches.
When the children of the flesh, who are not counted for the seed today, say "blessed is him who comes in the name of The Lord," THAT is when they will be grafted back into the tree. As Peter said, those who reject Christ are destroyed from among the people. To be the seed of Abraham requires one to
be a child of the promise, not simply of the flesh. Those who do not obey a God are not his people, and are not Abraham's seed.
QuoteThe literal inheritors of the Holy Land will be all 12 tribes of Israel, per the everlasting covenant given to Abraham. When Jesus returns, He will rule and reign from Jerusalem, literally.
From what I see, there are no "literal inheritors" vs metaphorical inheritors. There are only inheritors. And God himself defines in his own covenants the identity of those inheritors. It was always that way.
God never made an unconditional promise that the identification of the seed would be based on genetic heritage. Christians just assume that. GOD ALWAYS retained the right to define that condition based on his sovereignty.
That is why Ishmael's seed is not the people of God, even though they are genetic seeds of Abraham. It's not according to the flesh that Israel is, but according to the Spirit, according to the promise, according to God's choosing, according to his sovereignty.
This isn't new. God always retained that control to identify Abraham's seed
according to his own conditions.
Quote from: Seth on October 09, 2014, 08:27:03 PM
QuoteWe cannot be obedient unless we are given a new heart [the heart of Christ] and unless the finger of God [the Holy Spirit] writes His laws on our new heart. That was the whole point of the Old Covenant--to teach us just that. But he makes a new Covenant with the house of Judah [Jews] and the house of Israel [Christians] where He [Y'shuah] does all the work. This happens first for the Gentiles, and at the end of the age, for the Jews. But the Jews were always part of the everlasting covenant promised to Abraham by God and this will be the fulfillment of the everlasting covenant.
First of all, the first covenant was OLAM, not everlasting. The old covenant has faded and has no power to define the identity of God's people today. This is why the covenant of circumcision changed into no longer being valid according to the flesh.
I have no disagreement that we cannot be obedient unless God gives the new heart. But that proves that identity as God's people is according to ELECTION BY GRACE not genetic heritage.
It was always by grace, Seth. The everlasting covenant was made to Abraham by grace. It is a gift that no man can earn.
The covenant made on Mount Sinai does not annul the everlasting covenant. That Sinai covenant was conditional and based on keeping the law, which the Israelites promised to do. But, of course, we cannot do it in our own power. That is why God reaffirmed the everlasting covenant by grace to the house of Judah and the house of Israel. These 12 tribes are the only ones named under the covenant, have you noticed that? A will has beneficiaries, and they are the named beneficiaries. They are the elect. How do we identify them? By faith. We are justified by faith! That is why Martin Luther jumped out of his chair when he first read the New Testament. Our faith alone identifies us as partakers of the everlasting covenant and heirs under the will.
Now I say that the heir, as long as he is a child, does not differ at all from a slave, though he is master of all, 2 but is under guardians and stewards until the time appointed by the father. 3 Even so we, when we were children, were in bondage under the elements of the world. 4 But when the fullness of the time had come, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the law, 5 to redeem those who were under the law, that we might receive the adoption as sons.
6 And because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into your hearts, crying out, "Abba, Father!" 7 Therefore you are no longer a slave but a son, and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ.--Galatians 4
QuoteQuoteWhen he says, "with the house of...," He's talking about all of them.
God does not break His promises, which is why Paul calls them, IRREVOCABLE.
Absolutely, the election is to eventual salvation. Not conditional. But being part of Israel is conditional and always was conditional.
Exodus 19:5-6
Now IF you obey me fully and keep my covenant, THEN out of all nations you will be my treasured possession. Although the whole earth is mine, you will be for me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.' These are the words you are to speak to the Israelites."
Deuteronomy 28:1-2
IF you obey the LORD your God, here are the blessings that will come to you and remain with you. The LORD your God will make you his holy people. He will set you apart for himself. He took an oath and promised to do that. He promised to do it IF you would keep his commands and live exactly as he wants you to live.
Conditional.
Jeremiah 9
Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will punish all them which are circumcised with the uncircumcised; Egypt, and Judah, and Edom, and the children of Ammon, and Moab, and all that are in the utmost corners, that dwell in the wilderness: for all these nations are uncircumcised, and all the house of Israel are uncircumcised in the heart.
QuoteThe seed is not you or me.
The seed is Christ:
The promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. Scripture does not say "and to seeds," meaning many people, but "and to your seed," meaning one person, who is Christ.
That is why those who are in Christ are the seed. We are and so will the Jews know they are when God pours our His spirit on them at the end of the Age.
That is when they will be grafted back into the tree.
This is getting too messy for me to answer. We have to start with a new post. But, remember, the elect were chosen before the foundation of the world. Although there may be phases and stages as it plays out in linear time for our edification, there is nothing conditional going on about the elect, which includes the Jews.
3Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, 4just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love 5He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will,...--Eph 1
Quote from: Molly on October 09, 2014, 08:57:19 PM
The covenant made on Mount Sinai does not annul the everlasting covenant. That Sinai covenant was conditional and based on keeping the law, which the Israelites promised to do. But, of course, we cannot do it in our own power. That is why God reaffirmed the everlasting covenant by grace to the house of Judah and the house of Israel. These 12 tribes are the only ones named under the covenant, have you noticed that? A will has beneficiaries, and they are the named beneficiaries.
They are named as EVENTUAL beneficiaries in the prophecy that Paul mentions. They will EVENTUALLY become the people of God. But, today, there is one seed of Abraham which has always been defined by God's sovereign choice, not on the flesh, not on genetic heritage alone.
QuoteThis is getting too messy for me to answer. We have to start with a new post. But, remember, the elect were chosen before the foundation of the world. Although there may be phases and stages as it plays out in linear time for our edification, there is nothing conditional going on about the elect, which includes the Jews.
Nothing conditional. Ok, let's go back to the scripture.
Exodus 19:5-6
Now
IF you obey me fully and keep my covenant,
THEN out of all nations you will be my treasured possession. Although the whole earth is mine, you will be for me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.' These are the words you are to speak to the Israelites."
Deuteronomy 28:1-2
IF you obey the LORD your God, here are the blessings that will come to you and remain with you. The LORD your God will make you his holy people. He will set you apart for himself. He took an oath and promised to do that. He promised to do it
IF you would keep his commands and live exactly as he wants you to live.
There is no argument that the INEVITABILITY of their re-grafting is guaranteed and irrevocable. But for today, God's people are those who have faith in Christ. God has ONE people, who he has defined NOT as the children of the flesh, but as the children of the promise.
That goes all the way back to Genesis 12. He said "unto you and your seed" BUT NOT ISHMAEL, even though Ishmael was the genetic seed of Abraham. God didn't define that until Genesis 28. That reveals that genetic heritage was NEVER A GUARANTEE to be the seed, but it was always by God's sovereignty according to his own conditions.
And those conditions are further defined in the new covenant.To affirm genetic heritage based on Genesis 12 is to necessarily include Ishmael in the promises. To exclude Ishmael is to admit that genetic heritage was never a guaranteed condition of the identity of Abraham's seed.
Therefore, not only was it never guaranteed then, it's not guaranteed today. For to be a Jew is
not (that's a denial) outward according to the flesh. A Jew is one who is cirumcised in the heart according to the Spirit.
Seth, the elect are in two different dispensations with regard to their knowledge and understanding of Christ.
Believing Jews worship YHWH. Well, who is YHWH?
The Jews have not read the last half of the book, --they do not yet know who they are in Christ. You have to read the whole book.
Were we the elect before we believed? Yes, of course we were, because we were chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world.
The Jews are our brothers in Christ who have been temporarily blinded to the truth for our sakes.
But it is the end of the age, imo, so it's time for us to understand who we are and who they are.
Yet the number of the children of Israel
Shall be as the sand of the sea,
Which cannot be measured or numbered.
And it shall come to pass
In the place where it was said to them,
'You are not My people,'[d]
There it shall be said to them,
'You are sons of the living God.'
11
Then the children of Judah and the children of Israel
Shall be gathered together,
And appoint for themselves one head;
And they shall come up out of the land,
For great will be the day of Jezreel!
--Hosea 1
I have to go to work.
Quote from: Molly on October 09, 2014, 09:26:52 PM
The Jews are our brothers in Christ who have been temporarily blinded to the truth for our sakes.
Luke 8:21
And he answered and said unto them,
My mother and my brethren are these which hear the word of God, and do it.Galatians 3
16Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ. 17And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect. 18For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise. 29And
IF ye be Christ's,
THEN are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
Jesus himself denied genetic heritage as a way to be his brother. His brothers are defined as the seed of Abraham. That is not based on genetic heritage
and never was.Romans 11
6Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect.
For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: 7Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children:
but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.That is a reference to Ishmael and why Ishmael is not the seed of Abraham, even though he was genetically descended. This is how Paul is proving that "not all Israel is Israel." He is proving that by showing that just because Ishmael was a seed of Abraham, God did not use that fact to define the people of God. He CHOSE to define that according to election, not genetic heritage.
Therefore, if the non-believing Jews are brothers in Christ, then so are the non-believing Arabs, because they all descended from Abraham. If you point to Genesis 28 to show that Isaac defines the seed, that is admitting that genetic heritage never guaranteed an identification as Abraham's seed.
That happens to be the exact point Paul is making by saying that those who are Christ's are the seed of Abraham, not according to the flesh.
Quote from: rosered on October 09, 2014, 07:39:32 PM
WOW
Good to see you Molly and Seth back as well! and Micah !! dajo all as we go into it !!
I love this and am thankful for you all to God for His blessing
We realize NOT all of Israel is Israel IS REAL right ?
and we all have perspectives as a view or prospect in the possibility or likelihood of some future event occurring.
For me to believe this very important clue Paul said plainly for us here today to understand is that not all Israel is HOLY Spiritual in nature but carnal still and another spirit is in operation the old spirit in man that opposes Jesus Christ called the Antichrist spirit
just as those , gentiles being all other nations are not of the Holy ONE and of another spiritual in nature either
the old spirit of the old creation does not know love of God though Jesus Christ , being the very gift of grace given by the Father for the world
because they still hate all other nations this kind of hate is the enmity against the HOLY SPIRIT and only love their own kind , not as humans mind you , only humans are capable of loving their own and not very good at even that .
Jesus Christ said to those whom desired to kill Him , forgive them Father for they do not know what they are doing
the spirit in them does not know the Love of God given to them by the gift of grace in Jesus Christ , they / those spirits that desire to be known as gods , reject the ONE TRUE GOD by not having a new Spirit of Jesus Christ in them to even be born again , they are of that old nature and creation of the wilderness
they will come in last because they will know in the end the Truth
What they believe is truth is still a strong delusion and the same spirit of slumber that was placed in Adams heart / mind when the Lord God
created Eve mother of all the living out of His side
and for me , this is just my understanding and only what I can get now is , until the Bride is complete and comes out of Jesus Christ side that was hidden in his bosom and come out by water and blood by the spears of those soldiers /spirits that oppose Him as Antichrists and can morn him in seeing whom they pierced , its was in Gods good mercies to do this and show us what man meant for evil God showed all of us the good to come from it
You see for me , ITS ALWAYS BEEN GOD THE FATHER THOUGH JESUS WOULD COME DOWN TO US AND DWELL WITH US and not us to go up to them but to be surrounded by the Heavenly hosts / angels and pillars of smoke and the fire of Gods consuming
always in His presence you can see the pattern of the wilderness and the tabernacle built in this place , and we know the world is a wilderness full of dangers and wanderings and where the faith of them all are tested all the children of Israel died there , till those generations died and were no more
we also in the same manner die that same way according to the pattern all things are yours , you will also die many deaths and seek a better Resurrection the Lord will raise you up again into the new and better and this can happen over and over again ,
Paul said I die daily , the DAY is the Lords Day and its a judgement to remit or retain hold you or let you grow stronger in truth and grace by the SPIRIT OF HOLINESS
blessed in the sight of the Lord are the death of His saints HOLY ONES they sure are raised up again into a better Resurrection this is what Paul was desiring and addressing in some scriptures , did you ever notice he was ever changing and growing in more truth and grace and not stagnating in one place ?
He looked though as glass darkly in one place and in another place He was speaking of being known as Jesus was known and face to face ?
and spoke with both the tongues of man and of angels ? and went on into more knowledge and revelation/revealing of Christ
Perfection comes by the inward working of the Holy Spirit and truth within your walls of salvation [Jerusalem the teaching of peace , Jesus peace the good news of the gospel for all mankind to be changed and made new creatures in Christ
here we can see what spirit is in a man that opposes and oppresses the HOLY SPIRIT till its taken out of the way
Testing the Spirits
1Beloved, every spirit believe not, but prove the spirits, if of God they are, because many false prophets have gone forth to the world;
2in this know ye the Spirit of God; every spirit that doth confess Jesus Christ in the flesh having come, of God it is,
3and every spirit that doth not confess Jesus Christ in the flesh having come, of God it is not; and this is that of the antichrist, which ye heard that it doth come, and now in the world it is already.
4Ye — of God ye are, little children, and ye have overcome them; because greater is He who [is] in you, than he who is in the world. 5They — of the world they are; because of this from the world they speak, and the world doth hear them;
6we — of God we are; he who is knowing God doth hear us; he who is not of God, doth not hear us; from this we know the spirit of the truth, and the spirit of the error.
Love Comes from God
7Beloved, may we love one another, because the love is of God, and every one who is loving, of God he hath been begotten, and doth know God;
8he who is not loving did not know God, because God is love.
9In this was manifested the love of God in us, because His Son — the only begotten — hath God sent to the world, that we may live through him;
10in this is the love, not that we loved God, but that He did love us, and did send His Son a propitiation for our sins.
11Beloved, if thus did God love us, we also ought one another to love;
12God no one hath ever seen; if we may love one another, God in us doth remain, and His love is having been perfected in us;
13in this we know that in Him we do remain, and He in us, because of His Spirit He hath given us. 14And we — we have seen and do testify, that the Father hath sent the Son — Saviour of the world;
15whoever may confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God in him doth remain, and he in God;
16and we — we have known and believed the love, that God hath in us; God is love, and he who is remaining in the love, in God he doth remain, and God in him. 17In this made perfect hath been the love with us, that boldness we may have in the day of the judgment, because even as He is, we — we also are in this world;
18fear is not in the love, but the perfect love doth cast out the fear, because the fear hath punishment, and he who is fearing hath not been made perfect in the love; 19we — we love him, because He — He first loved us;
20if any one may say — 'I love God,' and his brother he may hate, a liar he is; for he who is not loving his brother whom he hath seen, God — whom he hath not seen — how is he able to love?
21and this [is] the command we have from Him, that he who is loving God, may also love his brother.
these things can go on and on
we just know that we must be changed from the opposing Jesus Christ to allied the Gathering and siding as friends and family into Christ as all the new testament witnesses testifies to
in conflict or competition with a specified or implied subject.
"the opposing team"
synonyms: rival, opposite, enemy, antagonistic
"opposing sides in the war"
differing from or in conflict with each other."the brothers fought on opposing sides in the war" Ismael's the natural realm and the Issac's spiritual realm
Thinking differently , repenting always be ready to be more and more Like Jesus Christ the first begotten son of God in the new creation as His possession ... with a new regenerating seed/ word and Holy Spirit renewal this is without end
got a little long :sigh: sorry
When the
chief priests and the temple police saw Him, they shouted, "Crucify! Crucify!"
Pilate responded, "Take Him and crucify Him yourselves, for I find no grounds for charging Him."
7
"We have a law," the Jews replied to him, "
and according to that law He must die, because He made Himself[a] the Son of God."
But they shouted, "Take Him away! Take Him away! Crucify Him!"
Pilate said to them, "Should I crucify your king?"
"We have no king but Caesar!" the chief priests answered.
16 So then, because of them, he handed Him over to be crucified.
But one of the soldiers pierced His side with a spear, and at once blood and water came out. 35 He who saw this has testified so that you also may believe. His testimony is true, and he knows he is telling the truth. 36 For these things happened so that the Scripture would be fulfilled: Not one of His bones will be broken.[j] 37 Also, another Scripture says:
They will look at the One they pierced.[k]
Paul learned a lot in his walk ,he came to the conclusion that he knew one thing
Christ and him crucified .
The crucifixion with the knowing of LOVE.
To hold the crucifixion in our consciences, while administrating LOVE.
God does not reject the Jews for crucifying Christ.
They reject themselves for believing that God could not forgive them for killing messiah.
As scriptures says They will look at the One they pierced.
No one wants to own the evil and let God overwhelm with the GOOD.
Right BRO Daj
I know that we all crucified Him because all have sinned :thumbsup:
Everyone knows that they were first and now last and those last shall be first , this is by Gods design , not mine :winkgrin:
but all will be saved
the Jewish nation was called to work the vineyard , it was than given to a nation that was considered foolish to them , It prophecy being fulfilled Isaiah 59 , 60
1'For the reign of the heavens is like to a man, a householder, who went forth with the morning to hire workmen for his vineyard,
2and having agreed with the workmen for a denary a day, he sent them into his vineyard. 3'And having gone forth about the third hour, he saw others standing in the market-place idle,
4and to these he said, Go ye — also ye — to the vineyard, and whatever may be righteous I will give you;
5and they went away. 'Again, having gone forth about the sixth and the ninth hour, he did in like manner.
6And about the eleventh hour, having gone forth, he found others standing idle, and saith to them, Why here have ye stood all the day idle?
7they say to him, Because no one did hire us; he saith to them, Go ye — ye also — to the vineyard, and whatever may be righteous ye shall receive.
8'And evening having come, the lord of the vineyard saith to his steward, Call the workmen, and pay them the reward, having begun from the last — unto the first.
9And they of about the eleventh hour having come, did receive each a denary.
10'And the first having come, did suppose that they shall receive more, and they received, they also, each a denary
, 11and having received [it], they were murmuring against the householder, saying,
12that These, the last, wrought one hour, and thou didst make them equal to us, who were bearing the burden of the day — and the heat.
13'And he answering said to one of them, Comrade, I do no unrighteousness to thee; for a denary didst not thou agree with me?
14take that which is thine, and go; and I will to give to this, the last, also as to thee;
15is it not lawful to me to do what I will in mine own? is thine eye evil because I am good?
16So the last shall be first, and the first last, for many are called, and few chosen
Jews demand signs and Greeks look for wisdom, 23 but we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles, 24 but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. 25 For the foolishness of God is wiser than human wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than human strength.
Instead of helping Israel see the signs.
We should help them see the one they pierced.
Quote from: dajomaco on October 10, 2014, 01:45:23 AM
Jews demand signs and Greeks look for wisdom, 23 but we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles, 24 but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. 25 For the foolishness of God is wiser than human wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than human strength.
Instead of helping Israel see the signs.
We should help them see the one they pierced.
Amen, that was just beautiful Bro Daj!!! :thumbsup:
:HeartThrob:
Quote from: dajomaco on October 10, 2014, 01:45:23 AM
Jews demand signs and Greeks look for wisdom, 23 but we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles, 24 but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. 25 For the foolishness of God is wiser than human wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than human strength.
Instead of helping Israel see the signs.
We should help them see the one they pierced.
Yes, the Messiah is a stumbling block to both them and us--
14"Then He shall become a sanctuary; But to both the houses of Israel, a stone to strike and a rock to stumble over, And a snare and a trap for the inhabitants of Jerusalem. 15"Many will stumble over them, Then they will fall and be broken; They will even be snared and caught."...
--Isaiah 8
--To us because we don't feel worthy and to them because they do not know who He is. They irk us because they reject Christ and we irk them because we have grabbed hold of Him.
The parable of the prodigal son is about the house of Israel and the house of Judah [Christians and Jews]. The house of Israel was divorced and went to slop pigs in the nations. The house of Judah stayed married to God and carried the law to the nations and gave birth to the Messiah. Look at the attitude of both sons in the parable, and of the father.
The Parable of the Lost Son
11 Then He said: "A certain man had two sons. 12 And the younger of them said to his father, 'Father, give me the portion of goods that falls to me.' So he divided to them his livelihood. 13 And not many days after, the younger son gathered all together, journeyed to a far country, and there wasted his possessions with prodigal living. 14 But when he had spent all, there arose a severe famine in that land, and he began to be in want. 15 Then he went and joined himself to a citizen of that country, and he sent him into his fields to feed swine. 16 And he would gladly have filled his stomach with the pods that the swine ate, and no one gave him anything.
17 "But when he came to himself, he said, 'How many of my father's hired servants have bread enough and to spare, and I perish with hunger! 18 I will arise and go to my father, and will say to him, "Father, I have sinned against heaven and before you, 19 and I am no longer worthy to be called your son. Make me like one of your hired servants."'
20 "And he arose and came to his father. But when he was still a great way off, his father saw him and had compassion, and ran and fell on his neck and kissed him. 21 And the son said to him, 'Father, I have sinned against heaven and in your sight, and am no longer worthy to be called your son.'
22 "But the father said to his servants, 'Bring out the best robe and put it on him, and put a ring on his hand and sandals on his feet. 23 And bring the fatted calf here and kill it, and let us eat and be merry; 24 for this my son was dead and is alive again; he was lost and is found.' And they began to be merry.
25 "Now his older son was in the field. And as he came and drew near to the house, he heard music and dancing. 26 So he called one of the servants and asked what these things meant. 27 And he said to him, 'Your brother has come, and because he has received him safe and sound, your father has killed the fatted calf.'
28 "But he was angry and would not go in. Therefore his father came out and pleaded with him. 29 So he answered and said to his father, 'Lo, these many years I have been serving you; I never transgressed your commandment at any time; and yet you never gave me a young goat, that I might make merry with my friends. 30 But as soon as this son of yours came, who has devoured your livelihood with harlots, you killed the fatted calf for him.'
31 "And he said to him, 'Son, you are always with me, and all that I have is yours. 32 It was right that we should make merry and be glad, for your brother was dead and is alive again, and was lost and is found.'"
--Luke 15
It had to happen this way because of this promise made to Abraham:
17indeed I will greatly bless you, and I will greatly multiply your seed as the stars of the heavens and as the sand which is on the seashore; and your seed shall possess the gate of their enemies. 18
"In your seed all the nations of the earth shall be blessed, because you have obeyed My voice."
--Genesis 22
Should We Support the building of the Third Temple in Jerusalem?
No. :2c:
:iagree:
:iagree:
I believe Israel has a right to exist as a nation. But I also believe that they have a right to make a peace treaty with Palestine to consider them a nation without being accused of violating the promises of Genesis 12. Since the seed inheritor is defined through the sons of Abraham as God chooses, and their descendants, Jesus Christ inherited the promises of Genesis 12. Therefore, Israel is free to make a treaty without being shamed and warned by Christian Zionists. I know that's not exactly the point of the OP, but I think it factors in.
Supporting the building of a new temple in the place that Jews currently understand it to have been means certain war with Islam because the Dome of the Rock must be destroyed there. That is an unnecessary war. The seed of Abraham as defined through the new covenant is being built as a temple unto itself.
It's not a matter of whether we should support a third temple. It's a matter of--We should support Israel and the Jews.
Of course, the Bible predicts we won't in general because the love of many will grow cold and it will be the time of Jacob's trouble for the last 3.5 years of the tribulation. Even so, it hurts my heart to witness it. The Jews will once more be persecuted and scattered.
Jeremiah 30 New King James Version (NKJV)
Restoration of Israel and Judah
The word that came to Jeremiah from the Lord, saying, 2 "Thus speaks the Lord God of Israel, saying: 'Write in a book for yourself all the words that I have spoken to you. 3 For behold, the days are coming,' says the Lord, 'that I will bring back from captivity My people Israel and Judah,' says the Lord. 'And I will cause them to return to the land that I gave to their fathers, and they shall possess it.'"
4 Now these are the words that the Lord spoke concerning Israel and Judah.
5 "For thus says the Lord:
'We have heard a voice of trembling,
Of fear, and not of peace.
6
Ask now, and see,
Whether a man is ever in labor with child?
So why do I see every man with his hands on his loins
Like a woman in labor,
And all faces turned pale?
7
Alas! For that day is great,
So that none is like it;
And it is the time of Jacob's trouble,
But he shall be saved out of it.
8
'For it shall come to pass in that day,'
Says the Lord of hosts,
'That I will break his yoke from your neck,
And will burst your bonds;
Foreigners shall no more enslave them.
9
But they shall serve the Lord their God,
And David their king,
Whom I will raise up for them.
10
'Therefore do not fear, O My servant Jacob,' says the Lord,
'Nor be dismayed, O Israel;
For behold, I will save you from afar,
And your seed from the land of their captivity.
Jacob shall return, have rest and be quiet,
And no one shall make him afraid.
11
For I am with you,' says the Lord, 'to save you;
Though I make a full end of all nations where I have scattered you,
Yet I will not make a complete end of you.
But I will correct you in justice,
And will not let you go altogether unpunished.'
12 "For thus says the Lord:
'Your affliction is incurable,
Your wound is severe.
13
There is no one to plead your cause,
That you may be bound up;
You have no healing medicines.
14
All your lovers have forgotten you;
They do not seek you;
For I have wounded you with the wound of an enemy,
With the chastisement of a cruel one,
For the multitude of your iniquities,
Because your sins have increased.
15
Why do you cry about your affliction?
Your sorrow is incurable.
Because of the multitude of your iniquities,
Because your sins have increased,
I have done these things to you.
16
'Therefore all those who devour you shall be devoured;
And all your adversaries, every one of them, shall go into captivity;
Those who plunder you shall become plunder,
And all who prey upon you I will make a prey.
17
For I will restore health to you
And heal you of your wounds,' says the Lord,
'Because they called you an outcast saying:
"This is Zion;
No one seeks her."'
18
"Thus says the Lord:
'Behold, I will bring back the captivity of Jacob's tents,
And have mercy on his dwelling places;
The city shall be built upon its own mound,
And the palace shall remain according to its own plan.
19
Then out of them shall proceed thanksgiving
And the voice of those who make merry;
I will multiply them, and they shall not diminish;
I will also glorify them, and they shall not be small.
20
Their children also shall be as before,
And their congregation shall be established before Me;
And I will punish all who oppress them.
21
Their nobles shall be from among them,
And their governor shall come from their midst;
Then I will cause him to draw near,
And he shall approach Me;
For who is this who pledged his heart to approach Me?' says the Lord.
22
'You shall be My people,
And I will be your God.'"
23
Behold, the whirlwind of the Lord
Goes forth with fury,
A continuing whirlwind;
It will fall violently on the head of the wicked.
24
The fierce anger of the Lord will not return until He has done it,
And until He has performed the intents of His heart.
In the latter days you will consider it.
I feel compassion for the Jews too, sis, but I know that God is operating all according to his will which includes them being temporarily blinded until the nations receive the evangel. Then a time will come when they will have their kingdom of the heavens that they've always hoped for, and even the nations that persecuted them will be subjected to their Messiah.
I see great symbology in that 'golden dome[head] of the rock[stone]..image....in these times...
babylon confusion religion[worship]...jewish people wailing at that wall[what I close no one can
open] David desired to build God a house..but God said..'I will build you a house' unless
the Lord builds the house the workers will work on it in vain. not a stone left upon a stone...
a white-washed wall will bulge and fall.........Jesus builds His church upon a rock.....the[rock]
revelation that He is the Son of God revealed by God and not man....a sure foundation......
why the foundation rock of the Dome is dissolving as we speak..........
the 'rock' that the people of Israel should be seeking after is that spiritual rock.........
never-the-less when He accepts them back in..it will be as life from the dead...dead works
the works of their own hands/burnt up...and the Works of God's hands[right and left seated]
will be their salvation.
It's never been a question of love. Christians are called to love EVERYONE and do good for all men.
But if it is a matter of doing good for Jews only and fighting Muslims based on theology, I don't believe Christian Zionists have a case.
Quote from: Seth on October 11, 2014, 06:34:51 PM
It's never been a question of love. Christians are called to love EVERYONE and do good for all men.
But if it is a matter of doing good for Jews only and fighting Muslims based on theology, I don't believe Christian Zionists have a case.
Either do in my opinion Bro Seth ,
its based on the wisdom of men and Not God those things they seek as signs will be to their own destruction and the knowledge of the Muslims will be the very Word that ends them
THE WORD OF GOD IS SURE and tested over and over again just like a refining FIRE
those Words do not judge unless you are accepting to be judged are the very core of Truth by the HOLY SPIRIT WITNESS !
Praying for His mercy on all concerned
:dsunny:
Quote from: sheila on October 11, 2014, 06:30:25 PM
I see great symbology in that 'golden dome[head] of the rock[stone]..image....in these times..
Before the muslims conquered. Jerusalem Church of the Holy Wisdom stood on the spot the dome is now. That church was nicknamed "The House and the stone" because it was build over the stone/rock/pavement Jesus stood on before Pilate......
Quote from: WhiteWings on October 11, 2014, 07:01:51 PM
Quote from: sheila on October 11, 2014, 06:30:25 PM
I see great symbology in that 'golden dome[head] of the rock[stone]..image....in these times..
Before the muslims conquered. Jerusalem Church of the Holy Wisdom stood on the spot the dome is now. That church was nicknamed "The House and the stone" because it was build over the stone/rock/pavement Jesus stood on before Pilate......
Interesting facts Bro Tony
I see them as trying to make an object holy/ idol but denying the very power of their existence , Who is God Himself :sigh:
the Messiah is the power of God
5Who have a form of God-worship and are far from his power;
remove from you those who are such.
6For some of them are these who crawl house to house and capture women buried in sins and are led to various lusts,
7Who are always learning and are never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.
8But just as Jannes and Jambres arose against Moses, in this way also they have withstood the truth, persons who corrupt their minds and are rejected from faith
. 9
But they will not proceed to their advancement, for their madness is known to every person, just as theirs was also known.
Not that I get involved in another country's politics, but I personally believe that building another temple could result in just more hardness as to what the temple signifies. It has to do with the understanding Paul shared that they shadows are not "the very thing." Without that understanding, I think the Bible shows that the shadows have a hardening effect. But WITH that understanding the shadows have a revelatory effect.
Quote from: Seth on October 11, 2014, 07:28:13 PM
Not that I get involved in another country's politics, but I personally believe that building another temple could result in just more hardness as to what the temple signifies. It has to do with the understanding Paul shared that they shadows are not "the very thing." Without that understanding, I think the Bible shows that the shadows have a hardening effect. But WITH that understanding the shadows have a revelatory effect.
I believe the true temple is the Holy ONE JESUS CHRIST and what comes out of Him is the true Church
1Peter 2
4
And coming to Him as to a living stone which has been rejected by men, but is choice and precious in the sight of God, we are coming to Him and chosen of God to be aSPIRITUAL HOUSE not made with hands of men , by by the Very Spirit of God Himself
5
you also, as living stones, are being built up as a spiritual house for a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ. 6For this is contained in Scripture: "
BEHOLD, I LAY IN ZION A CHOICE STONE, A PRECIOUS CORNER stone, AND HE WHO BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED."
:iagree:
I think this shows that no man can actually build the temple of God with his own hands. Building another physical temple at the cost of lives and all the money and work, just to have it revealed in time that the works of their hands got them no closer to God than they were before, why would I support an effort like that? I'd rather point to Christ instead. Paul himself said that he had to consider all his former objects of pride as DUNG in order to win Christ.
Therefore many of the Jews who had come to visit Mary, and had seen what Jesus did, believed in him. 46 But some of them went to the Pharisees and told them what Jesus had done. 47 Then the chief priests and the Pharisees called a meeting of the Sanhedrin.
"What are we accomplishing?" they asked. "Here is this man performing many signs. 48 If we let him go on like this, everyone will believe in him, and then the Romans will come and take away both our temple and our nation."
Quote from: Seth on October 11, 2014, 07:40:05 PM
I think this shows that no man can actually build the temple of God with his own hands. Building another physical temple at the cost of lives and all the money and work, just to have it revealed in time that the works of their hands got them no closer to God than they were before, why would I support an effort like that? I'd rather point to Christ instead. Paul himself said that he had to consider all his former objects of pride as DUNG in order to win Christ.
:thumbsup:
"For in grace, through faith, are you saved, and this is not out of you; it is God's approach present, not of works, lest anyone should be boasting. For His achievement are we, being created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God makes ready beforehand, that we should be walking in them. Wherefore, remember that once you, the nations in flesh--who are termed 'Uncircumcision' by those termed 'Circumcision,' in flesh, made by hands--that you were, in that era, apart from Christ, being alienated from the citizenship of Israel, and guests of the promise covenants, having no expectation, and without God in the world. Yet now, in Christ Jesus, you, who once are far off, are become near by the blood of Christ. For He is our Peace, Who makes both one, and razes the central wall of the barrier (the enmity in His flesh), nullifying the law of precepts in decrees, that He should be creating the two, in Himself, into one new humanity, making peace; and should be reconciling both in one body to God through the cross, killing the enmity in it. And, coming, He brings the evangel of peace to you, those afar, and peace to those near, for through Him we both have had the access, in one spirit, to the Father. Consequently, then, no longer are you guests and sojourners, but are fellow-citizens of the saints and belong to God's family, being built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, the capstone of the corner being Christ Jesus Himself, in Whom the entire building, being connected together, is growing into a holy temple in the Lord: in Whom you, also, are being built together for God's dwelling place, in spirit." (Ephesians 2:8-22)
Quote from: dajomaco on October 11, 2014, 07:44:06 PM
Therefore many of the Jews who had come to visit Mary, and had seen what Jesus did, believed in him. 46 But some of them went to the Pharisees and told them what Jesus had done. 47 Then the chief priests and the Pharisees called a meeting of the Sanhedrin.
"What are we accomplishing?" they asked. "Here is this man performing many signs. 48 If we let him go on like this, everyone will believe in him, and then the Romans will come and take away both our temple and our nation."
THE PROPHECY OF CAIAPHAS SAYING ONE MAN DIE saving a NATION and all the rest scattered would LIVE though Him as GOD raised Jesus Christ up to Live forever more
John 11
50nor do you take into account that it is expedient for you that one man die for the people,
and that the whole nation not perish."
51Now he did not say this on his own initiative, but being high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus was going to die for the nation,
52
and not for the nation only, but in order that He might also gather together into one the children of God who are scattered abroad.
Quote from: Tom on October 11, 2014, 07:49:39 PM
"For in grace, through faith, are you saved, and this is not out of you;
it is God's approach present, not of works, lest anyone should be boasting. For His achievement are we, being created in Christ Jesus for good works,
which God makes ready beforehand, that we should be walking in them. Wherefore, remember that once you, the nations in flesh--who are termed 'Uncircumcision' by those termed 'Circumcision,' in flesh, made by hands--that you were, in that era, apart from Christ
being alienated from the citizenship of Israel, and guests of the promise covenants, having no expectation, and without God in the world. Yet now, in Christ Jesus, you, who once are far off, are become near by the blood of Christ. For He is our Peace,
Who makes both one, and razes the central wall of the barrier (the enmity in His flesh), nullifying the law of precepts in decrees, that He should be creating the two, in Himself, into one new humanity, making peace; and should be reconciling both in one body to God through the cross,
killing the enmity in it. And, coming, He brings the evangel of peace to you, those afar, and peace to those near, for through Him we both have had the access, in one spirit, to the Father. Consequently, then, no longer are you guests and sojourners,
but are fellow-citizens of the saints and belong to God's family, being built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, the capstone of the corner being Christ Jesus Himself
, in Whom the entire building, being connected together, is growing into a holy temple in the Lord: in Whom you, also, are being built together for God's dwelling place, in spirit." (Ephesians 2:8-22)
[/b][/size]
:thumbsup:
IMO
The Israelis lost their identity when they lost their temple.
They have a new Idol and that is the land.
Their new identity is tied to the land they occupy.
Some Christians believe they are helping Israel by securing their new identity.
The must identify with messiah.
God will allow them no other identity
I don't support the Jewish temple for the same reason I don't support a church. It's unnecessary to do so because God doesn't live there.
"The God Who makes the world and all that is in it, He, the Lord inherent of heaven and earth, is not dwelling in temples made by hands, neither is He attended by human hands, as if requiring anything, since He Himself gives to all life and breath and all." (Acts 17:24,25)
Quote from: dajomaco on October 11, 2014, 07:59:43 PM
IMO
The Israelis lost their identity when they lost their temple.
They have a new Idol and that is the land.
Their new identity is tied to the land they occupy.
Some Christians believe they are helping Israel by securing their new identity.
The must identify with messiah.
God will allow them no other identity
:thumbsup:
some are coming to Christ now :HeartThrob:
The Jews like to see signs. I think the destruction of the temple was a sign that the temple sacrifices were obviously not sufficient for salvation, and God lives in his people who know Christ was the ultimate sacrifice who supersedes all other sacrifices and the law.
"For the entire law is fulfilled in one word, in this: "You shall love your associate as yourself."" (Galatians 5:14)
"Are you not aware that you are a temple of God and the spirit of God is making its home in you?" (1 Corinthians 3:16)
Quote from: dajomaco on October 11, 2014, 07:59:43 PM
IMO
The Israelis lost their identity when they lost their temple.
They have a new Idol and that is the land.
Their new identity is tied to the land they occupy.
Some Christians believe they are helping Israel by securing their new identity.
The must identify with messiah.
God will allow them no other identity
:iagree:
In fact, according to Galatians 4, their current identity is sonship under Hagar and Ishmael and not Sarah and Isaac.
bond vs free
Quote from: Tom on October 11, 2014, 08:12:13 PM
I don't support the Jewish temple for the same reason I don't support a church. It's unnecessary to do so because God doesn't live there.
"The God Who makes the world and all that is in it, He, the Lord inherent of heaven and earth, is not dwelling in temples made by hands, neither is He attended by human hands, as if requiring anything, since He Himself gives to all life and breath and all." (Acts 17:24,25)
It is God in the midst of chaos does He build up His HOLY ONE
as birthing pangs does the whole creation groan for deliverance to the sons of God , in Christ we are seeking salvation for all :HeartThrob:
might but my Spirit , no one can boast but in the Lord God Almighty !! ZECH 4; 6
I know it is politically incorrect.
To ask the Jew to look at the crucified Christ.
The truth will set you free.
There has in the past been a demonizing of Jews because of the Cross.
The teaching of Hell and the fact that Christians believe,
that Jewish leaders and other orthodox Jews will be Tortured by Yahweh for eternity.
The teaching of Hell has a extremely negative influence on the Children of.....
I agree, and it wasn't politically correct in Paul's day either. He was accused of "teaching against the people and this place." The first place they go is the accusation of anti-Semitism. That's what happened. You become falsely accused and made of no reputation.
Paul never taught against the people. He taught against the flesh having standing with God. Pride in the flesh results in wrath when the flesh is rejected as a way to be established before God.
I personally was falsely accused of it by a close lifelong friend for this very thing, angrily and falsely labeling me. But I count it joy nonetheless.
Zechariah 8 New King James Version (NKJV)
Jerusalem, Holy City of the Future
8 Again the word of the Lord of hosts came, saying, 2 "Thus says the Lord of hosts:
'I am zealous for Zion with great zeal;
With great fervor I am zealous for her.'
3 "Thus says the Lord:
'I will return to Zion,
And dwell in the midst of Jerusalem.
Jerusalem shall be called the City of Truth,
The Mountain of the Lord of hosts,
The Holy Mountain.'
4 "Thus says the Lord of hosts:
'Old men and old women shall again sit
In the streets of Jerusalem,
Each one with his staff in his hand
Because of great age.
5
The streets of the city
Shall be full of boys and girls
Playing in its streets.'
6 "Thus says the Lord of hosts:
'If it is marvelous in the eyes of the remnant of this people in these days,
Will it also be marvelous in My eyes?'
Says the Lord of hosts.
7 "Thus says the Lord of hosts:
'Behold, I will save My people from the land of the east
And from the land of the west;
8
I will bring them back,
And they shall dwell in the midst of Jerusalem.
They shall be My people
And I will be their God,
In truth and righteousness.'
9 "Thus says the Lord of hosts:
'Let your hands be strong,
You who have been hearing in these days
These words by the mouth of the prophets,
Who spoke in the day the foundation was laid
For the house of the Lord of hosts,
That the temple might be built.
10
For before these days
There were no wages for man nor any hire for beast;
There was no peace from the enemy for whoever went out or came in;
For I set all men, everyone, against his neighbor.
11 But now I will not treat the remnant of this people as in the former days,' says the Lord of hosts.
12
'For the seed shall be prosperous,
The vine shall give its fruit,
The ground shall give her increase,
And the heavens shall give their dew—
I will cause the remnant of this people
To possess all these.
13
And it shall come to pass
That just as you were a curse among the nations,
O house of Judah and house of Israel,
So I will save you, and you shall be a blessing.
Do not fear,
Let your hands be strong.'
20 "Thus says the Lord of hosts:
'Peoples shall yet come,
Inhabitants of many cities;
21
The inhabitants of one city shall go to another, saying,
"Let us continue to go and pray before the Lord,
And seek the Lord of hosts.
I myself will go also."
22
Yes, many peoples and strong nations
Shall come to seek the Lord of hosts in Jerusalem,
And to pray before the Lord.'
23 "Thus says the Lord of hosts: 'In those days ten men from every language of the nations shall grasp the sleeve of a Jewish man, saying, "Let us go with you, for we have heard that God is with you."'"
And they will be my people and I will be their God. That reminds me of New Jerusalem. The Jewish man, according to Paul IS NOT ACCORDING TO THE FLESH.
The Nations Worship the King
16 And it shall come to pass that everyone who is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall go up from year to year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, and to keep the Feast of Tabernacles. 17 And it shall be that whichever of the families of the earth do not come up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, on them there will be no rain. 18 If the family of Egypt will not come up and enter in, they shall have no rain; they shall receive the plague with which the Lord strikes the nations who do not come up to keep the Feast of Tabernacles. 19 This shall be the punishment of Egypt and the punishment of all the nations that do not come up to keep the Feast of Tabernacles.
20 In that day "HOLINESS TO THE LORD" shall be engraved on the bells of the horses. The pots in the Lord's house shall be like the bowls before the altar. 21 Yes, every pot in Jerusalem and Judah shall be holiness to the Lord of hosts.[d] Everyone who sacrifices shall come and take them and cook in them. In that day there shall no longer be a Canaanite in the house of the Lord of hosts.
--Zech 14
Quote from: Molly on October 12, 2014, 04:13:32 AM
The Nations Worship the King
16 And it shall come to pass that everyone who is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall go up from year to year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, and to keep the Feast of Tabernacles. 17 And it shall be that whichever of the families of the earth do not come up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, on them there will be no rain. 18 If the family of Egypt will not come up and enter in, they shall have no rain; they shall receive the plague with which the Lord strikes the nations who do not come up to keep the Feast of Tabernacles. 19 This shall be the punishment of Egypt and the punishment of all the nations that do not come up to keep the Feast of Tabernacles.
20 In that day "HOLINESS TO THE LORD" shall be engraved on the bells of the horses. The pots in the Lord's house shall be like the bowls before the altar. 21 Yes, every pot in Jerusalem and Judah shall be holiness to the Lord of hosts.[d] Everyone who sacrifices shall come and take them and cook in them. In that day there shall no longer be a Canaanite in the house of the Lord of hosts.
--Zech 14
New Jerusalem
None of the New Testament statement are going to be invalidated for those scriptures to be fulfilled. A Jew is not going to suddenly be through the flesh again.
Quote from: Seth on October 12, 2014, 04:01:49 AM
And they will be my people and I will be their God. That reminds me of New Jerusalem. The Jewish man, according to Paul IS NOT ACCORDING TO THE FLESH.
Paul was Apostle to the Gentiles. The Gentiles are the house of Israel. The Gentiles will live on earth in glorified, immortal bodies.
The Gentiles are Joseph, he who was set apart among his brothers, the body of Christ, the bride of Christ.
But, there are still their brothers, tribe of Judah, and his companions, who have been blinded by God for the sake of the Gentiles.
God never divorced Judah. Judah brought forth the Messiah and carried the law to the world.
Judah will be brought in at the end of the age, when the fullness of the Gentiles is come.
You do understand, of all the peoples of the world, only Jews and Christians worship the same God?
Jesus will return for Judah.
Quote from: Molly on October 12, 2014, 04:19:50 AM
Quote from: Seth on October 12, 2014, 04:01:49 AM
And they will be my people and I will be their God. That reminds me of New Jerusalem. The Jewish man, according to Paul IS NOT ACCORDING TO THE FLESH.
Paul was Apostle to the Gentiles. The Gentiles are the house of Israel. The Gentiles will live on earth in glorified, immortal bodies.
The Gentiles are Joseph, he who was set apart among his brothers, the body of Christ, the bride of Christ.
But, there are still their brothers, tribe of Judah, and his companions, who have been blinded by God for the sake of the Gentiles.
God never divorced Judah. Judah brought forth the Messiah and carried the law to the world.
Judah will be brought in at the end of the age, when the fullness of the Gentiles is come.
You do understand, of all the peoples of the world, only Jews and Christians worship the same God?
Jesus made clear who his brothers are. That's not going to suddenly change.
Quote from: Seth on October 12, 2014, 04:21:21 AM
Quote from: Molly on October 12, 2014, 04:19:50 AM
Quote from: Seth on October 12, 2014, 04:01:49 AM
And they will be my people and I will be their God. That reminds me of New Jerusalem. The Jewish man, according to Paul IS NOT ACCORDING TO THE FLESH.
Paul was Apostle to the Gentiles. The Gentiles are the house of Israel. The Gentiles will live on earth in glorified, immortal bodies.
The Gentiles are Joseph, he who was set apart among his brothers, the body of Christ, the bride of Christ.
But, there are still their brothers, tribe of Judah, and his companions, who have been blinded by God for the sake of the Gentiles.
God never divorced Judah. Judah brought forth the Messiah and carried the law to the world.
Judah will be brought in at the end of the age, when the fullness of the Gentiles is come.
You do understand, of all the peoples of the world, only Jews and Christians worship the same God?
Jesus made clear who his brothers are. That's not going to suddenly change.
We are his brothers. That hasn't changed.
We are also the bride of Christ.
The house of Judah cannot be the bride, God never divorced the house of Judah.
His brothers are those who hear the word of God and do it. Believe in Jesus Christ and love your neighbor. There is no brotherhood in Christ outside that.
Quote from: dajomaco on October 11, 2014, 07:59:43 PM
IMO
The Israelis lost their identity when they lost their temple.
They have a new Idol and that is the land.
Their new identity is tied to the land they occupy.
Some Christians believe they are helping Israel by securing their new identity.
The must identify with messiah.
God will allow them no other identity
:thumbsup:
Molly says
You do understand, of all the peoples of the world, only Jews and Christians worship the same God?
Jesus will return for Judah.
I worship Jesus as God as one.
Does the Jew worship the same one God?
Quote from: dajomaco on October 12, 2014, 07:27:17 AM
Molly says
You do understand, of all the peoples of the world, only Jews and Christians worship the same God?
Jesus will return for Judah.
I worship Jesus as God as one.
Does the Jew worship the same one God?
Yes.
1John 3
22And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight. 23And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment. 24And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.
The Jews do not believe in Jesus Christ and they are not obedient to his commandments. And just like Paul said, they are not the seed of Isaac, or of Abraham. This is what I don't like about Dispensationalism. It diminishes the importance for the Jews to believe in Christ in this life, even though it is the front and center commandment of God for everyone.
The end timers think that some how if they help defend Israel as a nation,
by helping them through violence to secure their land.
This will start the End
They for some reason are to embarrassed to share the Good News of the Gospel.
They will not ask them to look to the Cross.
The first to hear will be the last to hear then the End
How beautiful on the mountains
are the feet of those who bring good news,
who proclaim peace,
who bring good tidings,
who proclaim salvation,
who say to Zion,
"Your God reigns!"
8 Listen! Your watchmen lift up their voices;
together they shout for joy.
When the LORD returns to Zion,
they will see it with their own eyes.
14 How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them? 15 And how can anyone preach unless they are sent? As it is written: "How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!"[g]
16 But not all the Israelites accepted the good news. For Isaiah says, "Lord, who has believed our message?"[h] 17 Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word about Christ. 18 But I ask: Did they not hear? Of course they did:
"Their voice has gone out into all the earth,
their words to the ends of the world."
19 Again I ask: Did Israel not understand? First, Moses says,
"I will make you envious by those who are not a nation;
I will make you angry by a nation that has no understanding."[j]
20 And Isaiah boldly says,
"I was found by those who did not seek me;
I revealed myself to those who did not ask for me."[k]
21 But concerning Israel he says,
"All day long I have held out my hands
to a disobedient and obstinate people."[l]
The Good News does NOT include Hell
Quote from: Seth on October 12, 2014, 06:37:07 PM
1John 3
22And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight. 23And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment. 24And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.
The Jews do not believe in Jesus Christ and they are not obedient to his commandments. And just like Paul said, they are not the seed of Isaac, or of Abraham. This is what I don't like about Dispensationalism. It diminishes the importance for the Jews to believe in Christ in this life, even though it is the front and center commandment of God for everyone.
But this has all been explained in the Bible. The Jews do not believe Jesus is the Messiah. But they do worship YHWH. It is a matter of successive revelation. We read the whole Bible, they don't. But Paul is quite clear about the Jews--
28 Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake,
but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers. 29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. 30 For as you were once disobedient to God, yet have now obtained mercy through their disobedience, 31 even so these also have now been disobedient, that through the mercy shown you they also may obtain mercy. 32 For God has committed them all to disobedience, that He might have mercy on all.
--Romans 11
Quote from: Molly on October 12, 2014, 08:00:24 PM
Quote from: Seth on October 12, 2014, 06:37:07 PM
1John 3
22And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight. 23And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment. 24And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.
The Jews do not believe in Jesus Christ and they are not obedient to his commandments. And just like Paul said, they are not the seed of Isaac, or of Abraham. This is what I don't like about Dispensationalism. It diminishes the importance for the Jews to believe in Christ in this life, even though it is the front and center commandment of God for everyone.
But this has all been explained in the Bible. The Jews do not believe Jesus is the Messiah. But they do worship YHWH. It is a matter of successive revelation. We read the whole Bible, they don't. But Paul is quite clear about the Jews--
28 Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers. 29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. 30 For as you were once disobedient to God, yet have now obtained mercy through their disobedience, 31 even so these also have now been disobedient, that through the mercy shown you they also may obtain mercy. 32 For God has committed them all to disobedience, that He might have mercy on all.
--Romans 11
It's interesting that you do not deny that Dispensationalism diminishes the need for the Jews to believe in Christ in this life.
What Paul was clear about in that Romans 11 passage is the OT promise he quotes, an unconditional election to have ungodliness turned away from the Jews. His point was that, although God has defined the seed of Abraham through Christ, God has not forgotten the promise he made that they are elected to be saved from sin. So it is that all Israel shall be saved after the fullness of the Gentiles is come in.
The position of being Gods people was never based in the guarantee of the flesh, but of God's calling and it was always conditional based on obedience. Paul was not saying that they are still the seed of Abraham. They aren't. He is affirming the unconditional covenant he made to save them from ungodliness.
Quote from: Seth on October 12, 2014, 08:05:30 PM
Quote from: Molly on October 12, 2014, 08:00:24 PM
Quote from: Seth on October 12, 2014, 06:37:07 PM
1John 3
22And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight. 23And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment. 24And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.
The Jews do not believe in Jesus Christ and they are not obedient to his commandments. And just like Paul said, they are not the seed of Isaac, or of Abraham. This is what I don't like about Dispensationalism. It diminishes the importance for the Jews to believe in Christ in this life, even though it is the front and center commandment of God for everyone.
But this has all been explained in the Bible. The Jews do not believe Jesus is the Messiah. But they do worship YHWH. It is a matter of successive revelation. We read the whole Bible, they don't. But Paul is quite clear about the Jews--
28 Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers. 29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. 30 For as you were once disobedient to God, yet have now obtained mercy through their disobedience, 31 even so these also have now been disobedient, that through the mercy shown you they also may obtain mercy. 32 For God has committed them all to disobedience, that He might have mercy on all.
--Romans 11
It's interesting that you do not deny that Dispensationalism diminishes the need for the Jews to believe in Christ in this life.
What Paul was clear about in that Romans 11 passage is the OT promise he quotes, an unconditional election to have ungodliness turned away from the Jews. His point was that, although God has defined the seed of Abraham through Christ, God has not forgotten the promise he made that they are elected to be saved from sin. So it is that all Israel shall be saved after the fullness of the Gentiles is come in.
Paul was not saying that they are still the seed of Abraham. They aren't. He is affirming the unconditional covenant he made to save them from ungodliness.
You'll have to forgive me. I will never understand words like 'dispensationalist.' It's not worth my time. I'm just reading the Bible as best I can.
You are saying the Jews are not the seed of Abraham. The seed of Abraham is Christ. You, Seth, know you have the seed of Abraham, meaning Christ in you the hope of glory. The hope of glory. What is that? A glorified body? You might be right that will not be given to [some of] them, I don't know. But they will be present during the millennium because Daniel tells us [and Jesus, too] they will be in the first resurrection.
"At that time Michael shall stand up,
The great prince who stands watch over the sons of your people;
And there shall be a time of trouble,
Such as never was since there was a nation,
Even to that time.
And at that time your people shall be delivered,
Every one who is found written in the book.
2
And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake,
Some to everlasting life,
Some to shame and everlasting contempt.
3
Those who are wise shall shine
Like the brightness of the firmament,
And those who turn many to righteousness
Like the stars forever and ever.
--Daniel 12
"I will pour out on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the Spirit of grace and of supplication, so that they will look on Me whom they have pierced; and they will mourn for Him, as one mourns for an only son, and they will weep bitterly over Him like the bitter weeping over a firstborn.
--Zech 12
Therefore I endure everything for the sake of the elect, that they too may obtain the salvation that is in Christ Jesus, with eternal glory.
11 Here is a trustworthy saying:
If we died with him,
we will also live with him;
12 if we endure,
we will also reign with him.
If we disown him,
he will also disown us;
13 if we are faithless,
he remains faithful,
for he cannot disown himself.
Quote from: Molly on October 12, 2014, 08:21:26 PM
Quote from: Seth on October 12, 2014, 08:05:30 PM
Quote from: Molly on October 12, 2014, 08:00:24 PM
Quote from: Seth on October 12, 2014, 06:37:07 PM
1John 3
22And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight. 23And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment. 24And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.
The Jews do not believe in Jesus Christ and they are not obedient to his commandments. And just like Paul said, they are not the seed of Isaac, or of Abraham. This is what I don't like about Dispensationalism. It diminishes the importance for the Jews to believe in Christ in this life, even though it is the front and center commandment of God for everyone.
But this has all been explained in the Bible. The Jews do not believe Jesus is the Messiah. But they do worship YHWH. It is a matter of successive revelation. We read the whole Bible, they don't. But Paul is quite clear about the Jews--
28 Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers. 29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. 30 For as you were once disobedient to God, yet have now obtained mercy through their disobedience, 31 even so these also have now been disobedient, that through the mercy shown you they also may obtain mercy. 32 For God has committed them all to disobedience, that He might have mercy on all.
--Romans 11
It's interesting that you do not deny that Dispensationalism diminishes the need for the Jews to believe in Christ in this life.
What Paul was clear about in that Romans 11 passage is the OT promise he quotes, an unconditional election to have ungodliness turned away from the Jews. His point was that, although God has defined the seed of Abraham through Christ, God has not forgotten the promise he made that they are elected to be saved from sin. So it is that all Israel shall be saved after the fullness of the Gentiles is come in.
Paul was not saying that they are still the seed of Abraham. They aren't. He is affirming the unconditional covenant he made to save them from ungodliness.
You'll have to forgive me. I will never understand words like 'dispensationalist.' It's not worth my time. I'm just reading the Bible as best I can.
You are saying the Jews are not the seed of Abraham. The seed of Abraham is Christ. You, Seth, know you have the seed of Abraham, meaning Christ in you the hope of glory. The hope of glory. What is that? A glorified body? You might be right that will not be given to [some of] them, I don't know. But they will be present during the millennium because Daniel tells us [and Jesus, too] they will be in the first resurrection.
"At that time Michael shall stand up,
The great prince who stands watch over the sons of your people;
And there shall be a time of trouble,
Such as never was since there was a nation,
Even to that time.
And at that time your people shall be delivered,
Every one who is found written in the book.
2
And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake,
Some to everlasting life,
Some to shame and everlasting contempt.
3
Those who are wise shall shine
Like the brightness of the firmament,
And those who turn many to righteousness
Like the stars forever and ever.
--Daniel 12
"I will pour out on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the Spirit of grace and of supplication, so that they will look on Me whom they have pierced; and they will mourn for Him, as one mourns for an only son, and they will weep bitterly over Him like the bitter weeping over a firstborn.
--Zech 12
Dispensationalism is the belief that God has two people of God, and that belief in Christ is unnecessary to be called a people of God. They believe this based on the idea that genetic heritage seals them as God's people, rather than the calling, and obedience. The Hebrew Bible itself disproves that notion along with the teachings of the New Testament.
I agree that all Israel shall be saved, but that the first shall be last as Jesus said. They shall come in after the fullness of the Gentiles have come in.
I'm starting to feel like I'm back on christainchat.com where there is a continuous debate about Covenant Theology vs. Dispensationalism. I think the Jews were God's chosen people before we were, and we've only become so through Christ. I also believe a time will come according to God's will that the Jews will receive their Messiah. I have no desire to debate Convenant Theology vs. Dispensationalism. I think what's important is to study the word of God and interpret it according to your own understanding, and it's unnecessary to categorize that according to various kinds of "theology" or "denominations." I think it's a matter of personal perspective through personal interpretation of scripture which shouldn't divide believers.
"But, I am saying, Did not Israel know at all? First Moses is saying, I shall be provoking you to jealousy over those not a nation; Over an unintelligent nation shall I be vexing you. Yet Isaiah is very daring and is saying, I was found by those who are not seeking Me; I became disclosed to those who are not inquiring for Me. Now to Israel He is saying, The whole day I spread out My hands to a stubborn and contradicting people! I am saying, then, Does not God thrust away His people? May it not be coming to that! For I also am an Israelite, out of Abraham's seed, Benjamin's tribe. God does not thrust away His people whom He foreknew. Or have you not perceived in Elijah what the scripture is saying, as he is pleading with God against Israel? Lord, Thy prophets they kill, Thine altars they dig down, and I was left alone, and they are seeking my soul. But what is that which apprises saying to him? I left for Myself seven thousand men who do not bow the knee to the image of Baal. Thus, then, in the current era also, there has come to be a remnant according to the choice of grace. Now if it is in grace, it is no longer out of works, else the grace is coming to be no longer grace. Now, if it is out of works, it is no longer grace, else the work is no longer work. What then? What Israel is seeking for, this she did not encounter, yet the chosen encountered it. Now the rest were calloused, even as it is written, God gives them a spirit of stupor, eyes not to be observing, and ears not to be hearing, till this very day." (Romans 10:19-11:8)
"On this behalf I, Paul, the prisoner of Christ Jesus for you, the nations--since you surely hear of the administration of the grace of God that is given to me for you, for by revelation the secret is made known to me (according as I write before, in brief, by which you who are reading are able to apprehend my understanding in the secret of the Christ, which, in other generations, is not made known to the sons of humanity as it was now revealed to His holy apostles and prophets): in spirit the nations are to be joint enjoyers of an allotment, and a joint body, and joint partakers of the promise in Christ Jesus, through the evangel of which I became the dispenser, in accord with the gratuity of the grace of God, which is granted to me in accord with His powerful operation." (Ephesians 3:1-7)
What is wrong with categorizing? I am a Christian. I also don't mind being called a Christian universalist so long as it's properly understood. If Molly does not consider herself a dispensationalist, that's totally fine. I am not calling her one. She did say " Seth, the elect are in two different dispensations with regard to their knowledge and understanding of Christ." Which, call me mad, silly, crazy is pretty much a dispensationalism viewpoint. If I am wrong, I don't mind being corrected. But the theology of dispensationalism does exist and I don't see a reason not to talk about it. Some may agree with it and others may disagree. I personally disagree. Is there a problem saying so? I think RaiderGonzo brought up a question and we are discussing it. Should we have just ignored him?
I didn't say categorizing is wrong. I just gave my own personal opinion when I said I think it's unnecessary to categorize "theology" because I think it can get to be divisive and counterproductive. If you want to do so, go for it, brother. I just saw so much of that Covenant Theology vs. Dispensationalism on christianchat.com that I got burned out with it, and I thought it would be much better if folks were communicating more about what they agree on. I think contention among believers can be misunderstood by some folks especially unbelievers. I've heard that "Christianity" has been like that since the beginning though. That's why the church tried to establish control with creeds and accusations of heresy. I myself am a happy heretic though who doesn't conform to any labels easily. I even hesitate to call myself a "Christian" when asked because of all that has come to mean in the world due to the distorted doctrine of the church, but I definitely believe Christ died to save all mankind and to reconcile all on earth and in the heavens to God so that God may be all in all. So you would probably call me a "Christian Universalist." You would probably say I'm guilty of "Dispensationalism" too because, from what I've read, I tend to agree more with that kind of thinking than "Covenant Theology," but, like I said, I'm not interested in debating "theology." I realize a forum is for folks to all express their own opinions which we do. If you want to debate yours, go for it. I'm not saying you're "wrong" or need to be "corrected" as you said. I'll just say I don't see some things your way once in awhile even though we agree on other things. So I think we should just agree to disagree on those things we do, but, despite our different perspectives, we are all still one in Christ. That's why I think the differences are relatively unimportant, but again I say that's just my own personal opinion. I think we're all just believers because I think most of us on this site agree that Christ died for our sins and was resurrected from the dead. After that we all have various things that we see differently. In fact some folks even see that differently because some don't think Christ really died, but that's another subject of debate depending on your "theology." I guess I'm just getting too old to want to squabble anymore over whether it's six or a half dozen or toe-MAY-toe or toe-MAH-toe. I don't take life that seriously anymore. I find some of the debates kind of amusing actually, but I don't want to offend anybody. So I just let folks do their thing and communicate about other things of interest. Then sometimes I just have to take a break from the action and enjoy some peace and quiet. That's when I really feel blessed by the spirit.
I agree with much of what you said. But, I want to be clear, that I don't believe one can be "guilty" of dispensationalism. I see it as a way of understanding the scripture, but I just disagree with it and I have reasons for that. One of the is what I perceive to be a relaxation of the necessity of Jews to believe in Christ in this life, which, I am sorry, I believe is an important issue. Belief in Christ is a sticking point to the Gospel shared by the apostles and Christ himself. I don't hold anyone to guilt for their beliefs but discussing them does not necessary division. Disagreement doesn't necessarily mean division of people, just different ideas.
I was being facetious with the word "guilty," bro. I don't think there's "a relaxation of the necessity of Jews to believe in Christ in this life." I see it rather as an understanding that it is God who has temporarily blinded them for the purpose of bringing the nations into the fold, and, when it is his time to do so, he will bring them to Christ. I think we should share the evangel with them and all who need it, but it is God who will draw them to himself according to his will when he chooses to do so. I think these are details that we can consider intelligently as long as we do it in the spirit of love. I can see you're passionate about your beliefs. Have you discussed the evangel much with Jews?
I may have discussed it without knowing they were Jewish, but I created my website to discuss it with as many people as I can afford to bring there via clicks.
And who knows how many may be lurking here?
Yeah maybe.
I think we have a moderator who is a Messianic Jew, right?
I think it's just a matter of time, bro.
Quote from: Tom on October 13, 2014, 01:14:53 AM
I think it's just a matter of time, bro.
Definitely. This is not a primary issue with me. Though I think Paul wrote extensively enough about it as a defense against circumcision and sabbath pushing, I think the true Gospel is salvation through Christ, and also that all will be saved.
I agree. The epistle to the Galatians was a warning against "judaizing." We're not proselytes of Israel. We just happened to recognize their Messiah before they did, but it's according to God's will.
Quote from: Seth on October 12, 2014, 09:22:11 PM
What is wrong with categorizing?
In theory, nothing because in one word you understand the mindset of the person you are talking to. But if I look at myself personally I doubt I fit into a group. I'm a UR Messanic that believes fragments of many other denominations. Messanic-UR-Baptist-Quaker-Catholic-pre/post millianistic-old earther, WhiteWingist is my denomination :laugh:
There is a reason that some Christians think that a third Temple will be built at the end times. There are various scriptures that imply this is the case. As we get closer to imo the end, it makes sense in light of the following facts: Our leaders are greatly pressuring Israel to make a peace treaty with Palestine. Israel is not inclined to do this for obvious reasons. Permission to build a third Temple on the temple mount as part of a peace treaty would greatly sweeten the pot for Israel. Israel is all ready to go with its third Temple, including artifacts, priests, and red heifer. They could probably get it going in a matter of months.
Some scriptures pointing to a third Temple:
Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week;
But in the middle of the week
He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering.
And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate,
Even until the consummation, which is determined,
Is poured out on the desolate."
--Daniel 9:27
In this case, the 'he' in the passage is "the prince who is to come," otherwise known as the Antichrist. It says he makes a 7 year treaty, which he breaks in the middle of the [week] 7 years, by stopping the sacrifices and offerings, presumably in a Temple, and pouring out desolation on the desolate [the Jews]. He causes desolation with 'the wing of abominations.'
"wing"
H3671
כּנף
kânâph
kaw-nawf'
From H3670; an edge or extremity; specifically (of a bird or army) a wing, (of a garment or bed clothing) a flap, (of the earth) a quarter, (of a building) a pinnacle: - + bird, border, corner, end, feather [-ed], X flying, + (one an-) other, overspreading, X quarters, skirt, X sort, uttermost part, wing ([-ed]).
"abominations"
H8251
שׁקּץ שׁקּוּץ
shiqqûts shiqqûts
shik-koots', shik-koots'
From H8262; disgusting, that is, filthy; especially idolatrous or (concretely) an idol: - abominable filth (idol, -ation), detestable (thing).
So, the 'wing of abominations' could be a destestable, filthy, idolatrous army-- ISIS comes to mind--which has overrun Jerusalem.
20"But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then recognize that her desolation is near. 21"Then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains, and those who are in the midst of the city must leave, and those who are in the country must not enter the city;...
--Luke 21
15 "Therefore when you see the 'abomination of desolation,' spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place" (whoever reads, let him understand), 16 "then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17 Let him who is on the housetop not go down to take anything out of his house. 18 And let him who is in the field not go back to get his clothes. 19 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! 20 And pray that your flight may not be in winter or on the Sabbath. 21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22 And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect's sake those days will be shortened.
--Mat 24
Jesus references Daniel 9:27 when telling us what to look for 'standing in the holy place.' He tells those who are in Judea to flee. The reason it is thought this is an end time prophecy and not 70ad is his comment about the great tribulation which will not be repeated in human history and which must be shortened or "no flesh would be saved" of the elect in Israel, that is, the Jews.
And, again, we see Paul referring to this same event:
3Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction, 4who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God. 5Do you not remember that while I was still with you, I was telling you these things?...
--2 Thess 2:4
Again, this is the army of the Antichrist, 'the man of lawlessness,' 'the son of destruction,' which enters the temple of God and he declares himself to be God. We know the Antichrist has a proclivity to think of himself as God, and by this time he is indwelt by Satan.
When this event happens, we are beginning the 3.5 years of the great tribulation, referred to by both Daniel and Jesus, and also known as "Jacob's trouble" by the prophet Jeremiah [Jer 30].
For these things to happen, it can look like we need a third Temple in Jerusalem. All these prophecies and more go together. They do not stand alone to allow for personal interpretation.
Perhaps we should be be concerned with this temple, and it's being built. :2c:
1Co 3:16 Know ye not that ye are a temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
Rev 11:1-6 I was given a reed like a measuring rod and was told, "Go and measure the temple of God and the altar, and count the worshipers there. 2 But exclude the outer court; do not measure it, because it has been given to the Gentiles. They will trample on the holy city for 42 months. 3 And I will give power to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for 1,260 days, clothed in sackcloth.4 These are the two olive trees and the two lampstands that stand before the Lord of the earth. 5 If anyone tries to harm them, fire comes from their mouths and devours their enemies. This is how anyone who wants to harm them must die. 6 These men have power to shut up the sky so that it will not rain during the time they are prophesying; and they have power to turn the waters into blood and to strike the earth with every kind of plague as often as they want."
There's. a lot more in those verses. than the Temple itself if following. Ronen's root word method.
The root of the Hebrew word for measure means "protect" "cover wth a garment".
That makes me think back at the 4 angels restraining the winds are actually. holding a clth like the cuppah roof a couple married under.
The outer court is not measured/protected. The outer court is the court of Gentiles. Unbelievers. Again like the 4 angels who protect the believers but leave unbelievers unprotected.
:2c:
Quote from: WhiteWings on October 13, 2014, 05:09:58 PM
Rev 11:1-6 I was given a reed like a measuring rod and was told, "Go and measure the temple of God and the altar, and count the worshipers there. 2 But exclude the outer court; do not measure it, because it has been given to the Gentiles. They will trample on the holy city for 42 months. 3 And I will give power to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for 1,260 days, clothed in sackcloth.4 These are the two olive trees and the two lampstands that stand before the Lord of the earth. 5 If anyone tries to harm them, fire comes from their mouths and devours their enemies. This is how anyone who wants to harm them must die. 6 These men have power to shut up the sky so that it will not rain during the time they are prophesying; and they have power to turn the waters into blood and to strike the earth with every kind of plague as often as they want."
There's. a lot more in those verses. than the Temple itself if following. Ronen's root word method.
The root of the Hebrew word for measure means "protect" "cover wth a garment".
That makes me think back at the 4 angels restraining the winds are actually. holding a clth like the cuppah roof a couple married under.
The outer court is not measured/protected. The outer court is the court of Gentiles. Unbelievers. Again like the 4 angels who protect the believers but leave unbelievers unprotected.
:2c:
:thumbsup: :thumbsup: ..that's very good! I like that.. makes sense.. :Chinscratch: It feels true!
Quote from: WhiteWings on October 13, 2014, 05:09:58 PM
Rev 11:1-6 I was given a reed like a measuring rod and was told, "Go and measure the temple of God and the altar, and count the worshipers there. 2 But exclude the outer court; do not measure it, because it has been given to the Gentiles. They will trample on the holy city for 42 months. 3 And I will give power to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for 1,260 days, clothed in sackcloth.4 These are the two olive trees and the two lampstands that stand before the Lord of the earth. 5 If anyone tries to harm them, fire comes from their mouths and devours their enemies. This is how anyone who wants to harm them must die. 6 These men have power to shut up the sky so that it will not rain during the time they are prophesying; and they have power to turn the waters into blood and to strike the earth with every kind of plague as often as they want."
There's. a lot more in those verses. than the Temple itself if following. Ronen's root word method.
The root of the Hebrew word for measure means "protect" "cover wth a garment".
That makes me think back at the 4 angels restraining the winds are actually. holding a clth like the cuppah roof a couple married under.
The outer court is not measured/protected. The outer court is the court of Gentiles. Unbelievers. Again like the 4 angels who protect the believers but leave unbelievers unprotected.
:2c:
:2thumbs:
Me too its wonderful Tony
all of you , this has been
enlightening !! :icon_flower:
Seeing the scriptures unfold
noted Jesus said Jerusalem twice ! that has always held significance to me , as to be saying twice told
under His protection [healing in His wings ] etc in the old testament
37"Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her!
H
ow often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling. 38"Behold, your house is being left to you desolate!
I see this as the Lord telling them He always wanted to Love them and protect them , but they never would seek Him and wanted to love Him back :sigh:
Quote from: Molly on October 13, 2014, 11:22:47 AM
There is a reason that some Christians think that a third Temple will be built at the end times. There are various scriptures that imply this is the case. As we get closer to imo the end, it makes sense in light of the following facts: Our leaders are greatly pressuring Israel to make a peace treaty with Palestine. Israel is not inclined to do this for obvious reasons. Permission to build a third Temple on the temple mount as part of a peace treaty would greatly sweeten the pot for Israel. Israel is all ready to go with its third Temple, including artifacts, priests, and red heifer. They could probably get it going in a matter of months.
I've heard of this..
Quote from: Molly on October 13, 2014, 11:22:47 AM
Some scriptures pointing to a third Temple:
Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week;
But in the middle of the week
He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering.
And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate,
Even until the consummation, which is determined,
Is poured out on the desolate."
--Daniel 9:27
In this case, the 'he' in the passage is "the prince who is to come," otherwise known as the Antichrist. It says he makes a 7 year treaty, which he breaks in the middle of the [week] 7 years, by stopping the sacrifices and offerings, presumably in a Temple, and pouring out desolation on the desolate [the Jews]. He causes desolation with 'the wing of abominations.'
"wing"
H3671
כּנף
kânâph
kaw-nawf'
From H3670; an edge or extremity; specifically (of a bird or army) a wing, (of a garment or bed clothing) a flap, (of the earth) a quarter, (of a building) a pinnacle: - + bird, border, corner, end, feather [-ed], X flying, + (one an-) other, overspreading, X quarters, skirt, X sort, uttermost part, wing ([-ed]).
"abominations"
H8251
שׁקּץ שׁקּוּץ
shiqqûts shiqqûts
shik-koots', shik-koots'
From H8262; disgusting, that is, filthy; especially idolatrous or (concretely) an idol: - abominable filth (idol, -ation), detestable (thing).
So, the 'wing of abominations' could be a destestable, filthy, idolatrous army-- ISIS comes to mind--which has overrun Jerusalem.
20"But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then recognize that her desolation is near. 21"Then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains, and those who are in the midst of the city must leave, and those who are in the country must not enter the city;...
--Luke 21
15 "Therefore when you see the 'abomination of desolation,' spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place" (whoever reads, let him understand), 16 "then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17 Let him who is on the housetop not go down to take anything out of his house. 18 And let him who is in the field not go back to get his clothes. 19 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! 20 And pray that your flight may not be in winter or on the Sabbath. 21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22 And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect's sake those days will be shortened.
--Mat 24
Jesus references Daniel 9:27 when telling us what to look for 'standing in the holy place.' He tells those who are in Judea to flee. The reason it is thought this is an end time prophecy and not 70ad is his comment about the great tribulation which will not be repeated in human history and which must be shortened or "no flesh would be saved" of the elect in Israel, that is, the Jews.
thanks for posting those!! awesome verses.. I know that is how it's perceived.. i wonder, or that is, I'm one who wonders if the "holy place" isn't Jerusalem itself - "when you see the abomination which desolates" (666?) "set up in the holy place" - Jerusalem? I've wondered,
but could certainly be a third temple.....and the daily sacrifice and offering.. I get a sense of the Wailing Wall where prayers and sacrifices of thanksgiving are offered every day plus prayers written and put in the stones, offerings of a sort.. Daniel said "when you see the daily sacrifice taken away..three years seven months later" (by Hebrew count) "the abomination of desolation will be set up" - Daniel 12;11,12
Quote from: Molly on October 13, 2014, 11:22:47 AM
And, again, we see Paul referring to this same event:
3Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction, 4who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God. 5Do you not remember that while I was still with you, I was telling you these things?...
--2 Thess 2:4
This one makes me think of man's theory of evolution (a ridiculous adult fairy tale) :LH: which declares God dead and man a higher power.. deciding good and evil..
- though of course it could be a third temple..
I also think of the great falling away (of Christendom) and the "strong delusion" as that same full of holes laughable, upside down theory/faith of modern man who is blinded by his own modern miracles and wonders.. :smile:
Quote from: Molly on October 13, 2014, 11:22:47 AM
Again, this is the army of the Antichrist, 'the man of lawlessness,' 'the son of destruction,' which enters the temple of God and he declares himself to be God. We know the Antichrist has a proclivity to think of himself as God, and by this time he is indwelt by Satan.
:Chinscratch: that could be.. "so that he takes his seat in the temple of God".. this is perhaps one point in Bible prophecy which I think could be analogy.. though it's very possibly of course a third temple..
Quote from: Molly on October 13, 2014, 11:22:47 AM
When this event happens, we are beginning the 3.5 years of the great tribulation, referred to by both Daniel and Jesus, and also known as "Jacob's trouble" by the prophet Jeremiah [Jer 30].
it's my belief the seven year stretch Daniel spoke of is a peace treaty "accord, covenant, league" (strong's#1285) whether it is a world peace, which I tend to think it is, or just a peace truly ratified between Israel and Palestine,who has always refused, I wonder..
And the "tribulation of those days" which Jesus speaks of i tend to think of as
following the three years seven months Daniel counts out in Dan 12:11,12...
"1,290 days (3.5 hebrew years plus one 30 da month) from the time that the daily sacrifice is taken away, the abomination which makes desolate shall be set up. Blessed be the one who waits and comes to the 1,335th day" - which is 45 days later.
yep, i believe the "tribulation lasts 45 days" with clear ---) signs! I believe the last "ten days" is when "not able to buy and sell" escalates into "will be killed" on a global scale that is.. (if not totally global, pretty much)
"write to the angel of the church of Smyrna... you shall have ten days tribulation.."
("write to the church of Philadelphia" (brotherly love) "I will keep thee from the hour of temptation that is to come...")
Mt 24:1,2 "see all these things?" (the temple complex) "I tell you not one stone shall remain one upon another" - I know the Wailing Wall is not part of a building of the Temple complex, but a wall around the complex.. but I believe Jesus said "see all these.." - Mark 13 says "all these buildings" but Mt 24 and Luke 21 say "things".. ? :smile:
Quote from: Molly on October 13, 2014, 11:22:47 AM
For these things to happen, it can look like we need a third Temple in Jerusalem. All these prophecies and more go together. They do not stand alone to allow for personal interpretation.
Very good verses Molly! :))
Quote from: Molly on October 13, 2014, 11:22:47 AM
"wing"
H3671
כּנף
kânâph
kaw-nawf'
From H3670; an edge or extremity; specifically (of a bird or army) a wing, (of a garment or bed clothing) a flap, (of the earth) a quarter, (of a building) a pinnacle: - + bird, border, corner, end, feather [-ed], X flying, + (one an-) other, overspreading, X quarters, skirt, X sort, uttermost part, wing ([-ed]).
:Chinscratch: ..."a pinnacle of abomination.." ..."overspreading.." .."uttermost quarter (of the earth) pinnacle.."
very interesting..!
Quote from: WhiteWings on October 13, 2014, 08:22:52 AM
..if I look at myself personally I doubt I fit into a group. I'm a UR Messanic that believes fragments of many other denominations. Messanic-UR-Baptist-Quaker-Catholic-pre/post millianistic-old earther, WhiteWingist is my denomination :laugh:
I think that "WhiteWingest" one might be best! :laugh:
Quote from: micah7:9 on October 13, 2014, 04:37:05 PM
Perhaps we should be be concerned with this temple, and it's being built. :2c:
1Co 3:16 Know ye not that ye are a temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
Amen. Jesus came to fulfill the Law and the the Prophets. The temple is being built in Jerusalem this very day. The irony is that when we concentrate on the shadow temple, war, unrest, bloodshed, and discord results in the world. Building that temple means tearing down the the third holiest place in Islam. But when we concentrate on building the temple which is New Jerusalem, peacemaking is possible with all men, Jews or Arab. No more tears, bloodshed, war or pain. No more hurt children or angry men.
Beautiful post Micah :HeartThrob:
Quote from: Seth on October 13, 2014, 06:16:51 PM
Quote from: micah7:9 on October 13, 2014, 04:37:05 PM
Perhaps we should be be concerned with this temple, and it's being built. :2c:
1Co 3:16 Know ye not that ye are a temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
Amen. Jesus came to fulfill the Law and the the Prophets. The temple is being built in Jerusalem this very day. The irony is that when we concentrate on the shadow temple, war, unrest, bloodshed, and discord results in the world. Building that temple means tearing down the the third holiest place in Islam. But when we concentrate on building the temple which is New Jerusalem, peacemaking is possible with all men, Jews or Arab. No more tears, bloodshed, war or pain. No more hurt children or angry men.
Beautiful post Micah :HeartThrob:
Amen my Friend, Amen :dsunny:
Quote from: WhiteWings on October 13, 2014, 05:09:58 PM
..."Go and measure the temple of God and the altar, and count the worshipers there."
I find myself thinking, ..where? what or 'which' worshippers? are in the temple... at that time?.. :Chinscratch:
Quote from: WhiteWings on October 13, 2014, 05:09:58 PM
2 But exclude the outer court; do not measure it, because it has been given to the Gentiles. They will trample on the holy city for 42 months. 3 And I will give power to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for 1,260 days, clothed in sackcloth.
:Chinscratch: 42 months is also 1,260 days.. :Chinscratch: :Chinscratch: i'm seeing like possibly two filmstrips.. negatives.. the 1,260 days sitting atop/within the 1,290 days written by Daniel? (12;11,12)
Quote from: WhiteWings on October 13, 2014, 05:09:58 PM
4 These are the two olive trees and the two lampstands that stand before the Lord of the earth. 5 If anyone tries to harm them, fire comes from their mouths and devours their enemies. This is how anyone who wants to harm them must die. 6 These men have power to shut up the sky so that it will not rain during the time they are prophesying; and they have power to turn the waters into blood and to strike the earth with every kind of plague as often as they want."
I'm wondering,
if the two, do indeed coincide - the 1,260 of Rev 10 and the 1,290 of Dan 12 - when they are killed.. will be 30 days before the abomination which desolates is 'set-up'... (Daniel 12:12(11) - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Daniel+12%3A11-12&version=NKJV
Quote from: WhiteWings on October 13, 2014, 05:09:58 PM
There's. a lot more in those verses. than the Temple itself if following. Ronen's root word method.
The root of the Hebrew word for measure means "protect" "cover wth a garment".
That makes me think back at the 4 angels restraining the winds are actually. holding a clth like the cuppah roof a couple married under.
..."
I will keep thee from the hour of temptation that is to try all men.." written "to the angel of the church of Philadelphia" (brotherly love)... "the sun shall not smite thee by day nor any heat.." Rev 7:16
Quote from: WhiteWings on October 13, 2014, 05:09:58 PM
The outer court is not measured/protected. The outer court is the court of Gentiles. Unbelievers. Again like the 4 angels who protect the believers but leave unbelievers unprotected.
:2c:
"For you are the temple of the living God, according as God said, that I will be making My home and will be walking in them, and I will be their God, and they shall be My people." (2 Corinthians 6:16)
Quote from: RaiderGonzo on October 06, 2014, 04:37:02 AM
Many evangelical groups—with Bible prophecy as a motivation—heartily support Israel and the building of a third temple. Some even send considerable sums of money each year for charitable causes in the nation. Similar to some in the Jewish community, they believe supporting Israel will help speed end-time events.
I feel sorry for the Jews that they think they need a building to worship God just like church folks do, but that's their thing. And I think it's kind of a crazy idea that building a new Jewish temple is going to "help speed end-time events" because I'm pretty sure God has his own timetable for his plan.
Quote from: Tom on October 13, 2014, 06:52:13 PM
Quote from: RaiderGonzo on October 06, 2014, 04:37:02 AM
Many evangelical groups—with Bible prophecy as a motivation—heartily support Israel and the building of a third temple. Some even send considerable sums of money each year for charitable causes in the nation. Similar to some in the Jewish community, they believe supporting Israel will help speed end-time events.
I feel sorry for the Jews that they think they need a building to worship God just like church folks do, but that's their thing. And I think it's kind of a crazy idea that building a new Jewish temple is going to "help speed end-time events" because I'm pretty sure God has his own time table for his plan.
I must be in the corner.....Amen!
Quote from: marie glen on October 13, 2014, 06:34:55 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on October 13, 2014, 05:09:58 PM
..."Go and measure the temple of God and the altar, and count the worshipers there."
I find myself thinking, ..where? what or 'which' worshippers? are in the temple... at that time?.. :Chinscratch:
I would like to hear that explained by people who believe that temple is their own body. Do they have worshippers inside of them? A court of gentiles?
QuoteQuote from: WhiteWings on October 13, 2014, 05:09:58 PM
2 But exclude the outer court; do not measure it, because it has been given to the Gentiles. They will trample on the holy city for 42 months. 3 And I will give power to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for 1,260 days, clothed in sackcloth.
:Chinscratch: 42 months is also 1,260 days.. :Chinscratch: :Chinscratch: i'm seeing like possibly two filmstrips.. negatives.. the 1,260 days sitting atop/within the 1,290 days written by Daniel? (12;11,12)
Could be a way of pinpointing the timing because leap years are 30 days (extra month) longer.
QuoteQuote from: WhiteWings on October 13, 2014, 05:09:58 PM
4 These are the two olive trees and the two lampstands that stand before the Lord of the earth. 5 If anyone tries to harm them, fire comes from their mouths and devours their enemies. This is how anyone who wants to harm them must die. 6 These men have power to shut up the sky so that it will not rain during the time they are prophesying; and they have power to turn the waters into blood and to strike the earth with every kind of plague as often as they want."
I'm wondering, if the two, do indeed coincide - the 1,260 of Rev 10 and the 1,290 of Dan 12 - when they are killed.. will be 30 days before the abomination which desolates is 'set-up'... (Daniel 12:12(11) - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Daniel+12%3A11-12&version=NKJV
They have the powers of Enoch and Eliah.
Odly enough John also wanted to bring down fire.
OK, I'm new to this thread at this point. I don't have it in me to read all the posts in this thread at this point, so this may be a repeat. That said:
The Modern nation of Israel is not necessarily Israel.
You can look at it however you choose, but consider this:
Back when Israel divided into two kingdoms, only two tribes split off - Judah and Benjamin.
They became the kingdom of Judah, and the other ten tribes became the kingdom of Israel.
Then later, both kingdoms were taken into captivity, Israel into Assyria, and Judah into Babylon.
After their captivities, Judah (the Judahites and Benjamites) went home to Palestine, BUT Israel (the other ten tribes) never went back.
Israel dispersed.
Where did they go?
One modern theory is that they went north and west into Europe, among other places, and eventually assimilated into the population.
This is my belief.
If this is true, then many Americans are descended, at least in part, from the ten tribes of Israel.
Now, who is this Modern nation called Israel?
For the most part, they are descendents of the Judahites and Benjamites.
They are not Israel, they are only PART of Israel - only two of the tribes.
And many of them are mixed in heredity.
That said, IMO, I do not consider the modern political entity to be THE nation of Israel as spoken of in the word.
The important thing is that, under the new covenant, it is the believers who are the new nation of Israel.
The Vine and the Branches (both natural branches and grafted-in branches).
The Savior and his ecclesia.
Now, that said, those who send money to help people in Israel put their lives back together after war tears them apart are doing the work of Jesus the christ.
Those who send money to help anyone anywhere WILL BE BLESSED!
You cannot go wrong helping others out of a genuine heart of love for other people.
As for sending money to help rebuild a temple for another religion, or to help with their nation's political agendas? I am not speaking of that.
Quote from: WhiteWings on Today at 05:09:58 PM
..."Go and measure the temple of God and the altar, and count the worshipers there."
I find myself thinking, ..where? what or 'which' worshippers? are in the temple... at that time?.. :Chinscratch:
I would like to hear that explained by people who believe that temple is their own body. Do they have worshippers inside of them? A court of gentiles?
I have not looked into it, but perhaps they could be found in Rev. 2 and 3 :2c:
The question is, is Israel the people or the land?
If everyone one with a single drop of Jewish/Israelian blood was removed from Jerusalem. would you still call it Jerusalem?
In other words Israel without Israeli is stll the promised land Israel.
Quote from: Tom on October 13, 2014, 06:52:13 PM
Quote from: RaiderGonzo on October 06, 2014, 04:37:02 AM
Many evangelical groups—with Bible prophecy as a motivation—heartily support Israel and the building of a third temple. Some even send considerable sums of money each year for charitable causes in the nation. Similar to some in the Jewish community, they believe supporting Israel will help speed end-time events.
I feel sorry for the Jews that they think they need a building to worship God just like church folks do, but that's their thing. And I think it's kind of a crazy idea that building a new Jewish temple is going to "help speed end-time events" because I'm pretty sure God has his own time table for his plan.
It's not a matter of 'speeding end time events.' We cannot really do that. In fact, we are told the bridegroom tarries.
"Then the kingdom of heaven shall be likened to ten virgins who took their lamps and went out to meet the bridegroom. 2 Now five of them were wise, and five were foolish. 3 Those who were foolish took their lamps and took no oil with them, 4 but the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps. 5 But while
the bridegroom was delayed, they all slumbered and slept.
--Mat 25
Quote from: JBerton on October 13, 2014, 07:10:22 PM
OK, I'm new to this thread at this point. I don't have it in me to read all the posts in this thread at this point, so this may be a repeat. That said:
The Modern nation of Israel is not necessarily Israel.
You can look at it however you choose, but consider this:
Back when Israel divided into two kingdoms, only two tribes split off - Judah and Benjamin.
They became the kingdom of Judah, and the other ten tribes became the kingdom of Israel.
Then later, both kingdoms were taken into captivity, Israel into Assyria, and Judah into Babylon.
After their captivities, Judah (the Judahites and Benjamites) went home to Palestine, BUT Israel (the other ten tribes) never went back.
Israel dispersed.
Where did they go?
One modern theory is that they went north and west into Europe, among other places, and eventually assimilated into the population.
This is my belief.
If this is true, then many Americans are descended, at least in part, from the ten tribes of Israel.
Now, who is this Modern nation called Israel?
For the most part, they are descendents of the Judahites and Benjamites.
They are not Israel, they are only PART of Israel - only two of the tribes.
And many of them are mixed in heredity.
That said, IMO, I do not consider the modern political entity to be THE nation of Israel as spoken of in the word.
The important thing is that, under the new covenant, it is the believers who are the new nation of Israel.
The Vine and the Branches (both natural branches and grafted-in branches).
The Savior and his ecclesia.
Now, that said, those who send money to help people in Israel put their lives back together after war tears them apart are doing the work of Jesus the christ.
Those who send money to help anyone anywhere WILL BE BLESSED!
You cannot go wrong helping others out of a genuine heart of love for other people.
As for sending money to help rebuild a temple for another religion, or to help with their nation's political agendas? I am not speaking of that.
I think you're right, bro. I think everybody should send me some money so you can be blessed.
:Peace2:
Quote from: WhiteWings on October 13, 2014, 07:24:44 PM
The question is, is Israel the people or the land?
If everyone one with a single drop of Jewish/Israelian blood was removed from Jerusalem. would you still call it Jerusalem?
In other words Israel without Israeli is stll the promised land Israel.
Israel is another name for Jesus. And, for the people of God--Jews and Gentiles. The land is promised to Israel by God in an everlasting covenant. Jesus and his saints--the Israel of God-- will rule and reign from Jerusalem on earth.
"Israel"H3478
ישׂראל
yiśrâ'êl
yis-raw-ale'
From H8280 and H410;
he will rule as God; Jisrael, a symbolical name of Jacob; also (typically) of his posterity: - Israel.
Quote from: Tom on October 13, 2014, 07:28:49 PM
Quote from: JBerton on October 13, 2014, 07:10:22 PM
OK, I'm new to this thread at this point. I don't have it in me to read all the posts in this thread at this point, so this may be a repeat. That said:
The Modern nation of Israel is not necessarily Israel.
You can look at it however you choose, but consider this:
Back when Israel divided into two kingdoms, only two tribes split off - Judah and Benjamin.
They became the kingdom of Judah, and the other ten tribes became the kingdom of Israel.
Then later, both kingdoms were taken into captivity, Israel into Assyria, and Judah into Babylon.
After their captivities, Judah (the Judahites and Benjamites) went home to Palestine, BUT Israel (the other ten tribes) never went back.
Israel dispersed.
Where did they go?
One modern theory is that they went north and west into Europe, among other places, and eventually assimilated into the population.
This is my belief.
If this is true, then many Americans are descended, at least in part, from the ten tribes of Israel.
Now, who is this Modern nation called Israel?
For the most part, they are descendents of the Judahites and Benjamites.
They are not Israel, they are only PART of Israel - only two of the tribes.
And many of them are mixed in heredity.
That said, IMO, I do not consider the modern political entity to be THE nation of Israel as spoken of in the word.
The important thing is that, under the new covenant, it is the believers who are the new nation of Israel.
The Vine and the Branches (both natural branches and grafted-in branches).
The Savior and his ecclesia.
Now, that said, those who send money to help people in Israel put their lives back together after war tears them apart are doing the work of Jesus the christ.
Those who send money to help anyone anywhere WILL BE BLESSED!
You cannot go wrong helping others out of a genuine heart of love for other people.
As for sending money to help rebuild a temple for another religion, or to help with their nation's political agendas? I am not speaking of that.
I think you're right, bro. I think everybody should send me some money so you can be blessed.
I agree with half of what you say. The church is the house of Israel, the birthright being given to Joseph in double portion through his two sons Ephraim and Manasseh. Jesus came the first time as the suffering servant, Messiah ben Joseph, for the house of Israel.
Jesus will come the second time for the house of Judah, modern day country of Israel, as Messiah ben David, the Lion of the tribe of Judah. He will destroy Judah's enemies. Judah was given the scepter by Jacob until Shiloh come.
Many Rabbi's are aware of this and think it is referring to two Messiahs. It is really one Messiah coming twice, so that both houses will be delivered at different times.
But, then I am a literal reader of the Bible. It's a great story when you read it literally.
16 Moreover, thou son of man, take thee one stick, and write upon it, For Judah, and for the children of Israel his companions: then take another stick, and write upon it, For Joseph, the stick of Ephraim, and for all the house of Israel his companions:
17 And join them one to another into one stick; and they shall become one in thine hand.
--Ezekiel 37
Quote from: WhiteWings on October 13, 2014, 07:05:39 PM
Quote from: marie glen on October 13, 2014, 06:34:55 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on October 13, 2014, 05:09:58 PM
..."Go and measure the temple of God and the altar, and count the worshipers there."
I find myself thinking, ..where? what or 'which' worshippers? are in the temple... at that time?.. :Chinscratch:
I would like to hear that explained by people who believe that temple is their own body. Do they have worshippers inside of them? A court of gentiles?
QuoteQuote from: WhiteWings on October 13, 2014, 05:09:58 PM
2 But exclude the outer court; do not measure it, because it has been given to the Gentiles. They will trample on the holy city for 42 months. 3 And I will give power to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for 1,260 days, clothed in sackcloth.
:Chinscratch: 42 months is also 1,260 days.. :Chinscratch: :Chinscratch: i'm seeing like possibly two filmstrips.. negatives.. the 1,260 days sitting atop/within the 1,290 days written by Daniel? (12;11,12)
Could be a way of pinpointing the timing because leap years are 30 days (extra month) longer.
QuoteQuote from: WhiteWings on October 13, 2014, 05:09:58 PM
4 These are the two olive trees and the two lampstands that stand before the Lord of the earth. 5 If anyone tries to harm them, fire comes from their mouths and devours their enemies. This is how anyone who wants to harm them must die. 6 These men have power to shut up the sky so that it will not rain during the time they are prophesying; and they have power to turn the waters into blood and to strike the earth with every kind of plague as often as they want."
I'm wondering, if the two, do indeed coincide - the 1,260 of Rev 10 and the 1,290 of Dan 12 - when they are killed.. will be 30 days before the abomination which desolates is 'set-up'... (Daniel 12:12(11) - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Daniel+12%3A11-12&version=NKJV
They have the powers of Enoch and Eliah.
Odly enough John also wanted to bring down fire.
Regarding the question: "I would like to hear that explained by people who believe that temple is their own body. Do they have worshippers inside of them? A court of gentiles?" I think some may disagree, but I don't think we believers of the nations are the New Jerusalem temple.
Quote from: Molly on October 13, 2014, 07:43:41 PM
Quote from: Tom on October 13, 2014, 07:28:49 PM
Quote from: JBerton on October 13, 2014, 07:10:22 PM
OK, I'm new to this thread at this point. I don't have it in me to read all the posts in this thread at this point, so this may be a repeat. That said:
The Modern nation of Israel is not necessarily Israel.
You can look at it however you choose, but consider this:
Back when Israel divided into two kingdoms, only two tribes split off - Judah and Benjamin.
They became the kingdom of Judah, and the other ten tribes became the kingdom of Israel.
Then later, both kingdoms were taken into captivity, Israel into Assyria, and Judah into Babylon.
After their captivities, Judah (the Judahites and Benjamites) went home to Palestine, BUT Israel (the other ten tribes) never went back.
Israel dispersed.
Where did they go?
One modern theory is that they went north and west into Europe, among other places, and eventually assimilated into the population.
This is my belief.
If this is true, then many Americans are descended, at least in part, from the ten tribes of Israel.
Now, who is this Modern nation called Israel?
For the most part, they are descendents of the Judahites and Benjamites.
They are not Israel, they are only PART of Israel - only two of the tribes.
And many of them are mixed in heredity.
That said, IMO, I do not consider the modern political entity to be THE nation of Israel as spoken of in the word.
The important thing is that, under the new covenant, it is the believers who are the new nation of Israel.
The Vine and the Branches (both natural branches and grafted-in branches).
The Savior and his ecclesia.
Now, that said, those who send money to help people in Israel put their lives back together after war tears them apart are doing the work of Jesus the christ.
Those who send money to help anyone anywhere WILL BE BLESSED!
You cannot go wrong helping others out of a genuine heart of love for other people.
As for sending money to help rebuild a temple for another religion, or to help with their nation's political agendas? I am not speaking of that.
I think you're right, bro. I think everybody should send me some money so you can be blessed.
I agree with half of what you say. The church is the house of Israel, the birthright being given to Joseph in double portion through his two sons Ephraim and Manasseh. Jesus came the first time as the suffering servant, Messiah ben Joseph, for the house of Israel.
Jesus will come the second time for the house of Judah, modern day country of Israel, as Messiah ben David, the Lion of the tribe of Judah. He will destroy Judah's enemies. Judah was given the scepter by Jacob until Shiloh come.
Many Rabbi's are aware of this and think it is referring to two Messiahs. It is really one Messiah coming twice, so that both houses will be delivered at different times.
But, then I am a literal reader of the Bible. It's a great story when you read it literally.
16 Moreover, thou son of man, take thee one stick, and write upon it, For Judah, and for the children of Israel his companions: then take another stick, and write upon it, For Joseph, the stick of Ephraim, and for all the house of Israel his companions:
17 And join them one to another into one stick; and they shall become one in thine hand.
--Ezekiel 37
You quoted me, sis, but I only said, "I think you're right, bro. I think everybody should send me some money so you can be blessed."
Quote from: micah7:9 on October 13, 2014, 07:22:36 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on Today at 05:09:58 PM
..."Go and measure the temple of God and the altar, and count the worshipers there."
I find myself thinking, ..where? what or 'which' worshippers? are in the temple... at that time?.. :Chinscratch:
I would like to hear that explained by people who believe that temple is their own body. Do they have worshippers inside of them? A court of gentiles?
I have not looked into it, but perhaps they could be found in Rev. 2 and 3 :2c:
I really , really
dont think anyone would understand ,here is a shot of trying
we are designed as the temple pattern the outer court inner court and holy of holies [the Lamb &God ]
the outer court is our flesh ,,,,,,,,,,,,,, all flesh defiles the temple of which you are
the inner court is the pattern where Jesus though tat veil His flesh as torn the barrier between God and man possible
we fellowship with one another
In Hebrews we can tell how the old is gone and NEW and Living way is brought by Jesus entering Heaven and opened for us
its in your heart all things are in your heart [God and &Lamb ] are ruling and regining in your heart and we have the True oneness and fellowship
with the great cloud of witnesses
we are actually as ONE AND WORSHIPING GOD IN SPIRIT AND TRUTH
THis is how we will be One faith one baptism one !! of your fellow worship God and the huge stumbling block is this
for many the second coming of Christ is already happened for them
and for many the blindness and no faith has kept them out as stopped them
and they wait come a second time so also the Christ, once having been offered to bear the sins of many, a second time, apart from a sin-offering,
shall appear, to those waiting for him -- to salvation! Hebrews 9
for me that is the Holy place
our fellowship is with sion
where the true worshipers dwell Hebrews 12 22But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to myriads of angels, 23to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the Judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect,...
you see we are in the place were we do not go up
It comes down to us
ascended anytime
Jesus and Nicodemus
...12"If I told you earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things? 13"
No one has ascended into heaven, but He who descended from heaven: the Son of Man. 14"As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up;
1And he showed me a river of the water of life, pure and clear as crystal, and it went out from the throne of God and of the Lamb. 2And in the center of the street on this side and on that, upon the river, The Tree of Life which produces twelve fruits, and every month it gives its fruits and its leaves for the healing of the peoples. 3And no curse shall be there, and the throne of God and of The Lamb shall be in it, and his Servants shall serve him. 4And they shall see his face and his Name shall be upon their foreheads. 5And there shall be no night there and neither will they need lights,* lamps, or the light of the Sun, because THE LORD JEHOVAH God gives them light, and he is their King* for the eternity of eternities.
6And he said to me, "These words are trustworthy and true, and THE LORD JEHOVAH, God of The Spirit of The Holy Prophets, has sent his Angel to show his Servants what is granted to happen soon."
7"And behold, I come soon. Blessed is he who keeps the words of the prophecy of this book."
8I am Yohannan, who saw and heard these things. And when I saw and heard, I fell to worship before the feet of the Angel who was showing me these things. 9And he said to me:
"Seer, no!* I am your fellow Servant and of your brothers the Prophets and of those who observe these words of this book. Worship God!"
10And he said to me, "Do not seal the words of the prophecy of this book, for the time is near." 11"And he who does evil, will do evil again; he who is foul, again will be polluted; the righteous again will do righteousness and the holy will again be hallowed."
12"
Behold, I come at once, and my reward is with me, and I shall give to every person according to his work." 13"I am Alap and I am Tau, The First and The Last, The Origin and The Fulfillment."*14"Blessings to those who are doing his Commandments; their authority shall be over
The Tree of Life, and they shall enter The City by the gates." 15
"And outside are fornicators, murderers, idol worshipers, the defiled, sorcerers and all seers* and workers of lies."
16I, Yeshua, have sent my Angel to testify these things among you before the assemblies
. I AM THE LIVING GOD, The Root and The Offspring of David, and his Companion*, and The Bright Morning Star."17"And The Spirit and The Bride are saying, 'Come', and let him who hears, say, "Come", and let him who thirsts* come and take the water of life without charge."
18
"I testify to everyone who hears the word of the prophecy of this book: Whoever will place upon these things, God shall place upon him the plagues that are written in this book." 19"A
nd whoever subtracts from the words of the Scripture of this prophecy, God shall subtract his part from The Tree of Life and from The Holy City, those things which are written in this book."20And when he testified these things, he said, "
Yes*, I am coming soon." "Come, LORD JEHOVAH Yeshua
there is no way humanly possible for any man to recognize Jesus Christ
every time it was a spiritual experience and extremely difficult to keep something that holy and pure from being defiled from a carnal mind the true enmity against the Spirit of God and grace and holiness
only hope it will help open , open our hearts to Gods love and great glory , to be known and seen and understood in the hearts , His treasures For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.
Quote from: WhiteWings on October 13, 2014, 07:24:44 PM
The question is, is Israel the people or the land?
If everyone one with a single drop of Jewish/Israelian blood was removed from Jerusalem. would you still call it Jerusalem?
In other words Israel without Israeli is stll the promised land Israel.
Or, is it a house? A family name which does not necessarily encompass physical descendants. Don't take this the wrong way, but think about a house as in the mafia. You can be part of that house without being blood relative if you are sworn in and counted as a member of the house.
Quote from: Molly on October 13, 2014, 07:27:20 PM
Quote from: Tom on October 13, 2014, 06:52:13 PM
Quote from: RaiderGonzo on October 06, 2014, 04:37:02 AM
Many evangelical groups—with Bible prophecy as a motivation—heartily support Israel and the building of a third temple. Some even send considerable sums of money each year for charitable causes in the nation. Similar to some in the Jewish community, they believe supporting Israel will help speed end-time events.
I feel sorry for the Jews that they think they need a building to worship God just like church folks do, but that's their thing. And I think it's kind of a crazy idea that building a new Jewish temple is going to "help speed end-time events" because I'm pretty sure God has his own time table for his plan.
It's not a matter of 'speeding end time events.' We cannot really do that. In fact, we are told the bridegroom tarries.
"Then the kingdom of heaven shall be likened to ten virgins who took their lamps and went out to meet the bridegroom. 2 Now five of them were wise, and five were foolish. 3 Those who were foolish took their lamps and took no oil with them, 4 but the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps. 5 But while the bridegroom was delayed, they all slumbered and slept.
--Mat 25
It that is case, then Christian leaders can stop trying to block peace treaties, and led peace reign, and allow God to whatever he will do.
Quote from: Tom on October 13, 2014, 07:54:41 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on October 13, 2014, 07:05:39 PM
Quote from: marie glen on October 13, 2014, 06:34:55 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on October 13, 2014, 05:09:58 PM
..."Go and measure the temple of God and the altar, and count the worshipers there."
I find myself thinking, ..where? what or 'which' worshippers? are in the temple... at that time?.. :Chinscratch:
I would like to hear that explained by people who believe that temple is their own body. Do they have worshippers inside of them? A court of gentiles?
QuoteQuote from: WhiteWings on October 13, 2014, 05:09:58 PM
2 But exclude the outer court; do not measure it, because it has been given to the Gentiles. They will trample on the holy city for 42 months. 3 And I will give power to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for 1,260 days, clothed in sackcloth.
:Chinscratch: 42 months is also 1,260 days.. :Chinscratch: :Chinscratch: i'm seeing like possibly two filmstrips.. negatives.. the 1,260 days sitting atop/within the 1,290 days written by Daniel? (12;11,12)
Could be a way of pinpointing the timing because leap years are 30 days (extra month) longer.
QuoteQuote from: WhiteWings on October 13, 2014, 05:09:58 PM
4 These are the two olive trees and the two lampstands that stand before the Lord of the earth. 5 If anyone tries to harm them, fire comes from their mouths and devours their enemies. This is how anyone who wants to harm them must die. 6 These men have power to shut up the sky so that it will not rain during the time they are prophesying; and they have power to turn the waters into blood and to strike the earth with every kind of plague as often as they want."
I'm wondering, if the two, do indeed coincide - the 1,260 of Rev 10 and the 1,290 of Dan 12 - when they are killed.. will be 30 days before the abomination which desolates is 'set-up'... (Daniel 12:12(11) - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Daniel+12%3A11-12&version=NKJV
They have the powers of Enoch and Eliah.
Odly enough John also wanted to bring down fire.
Regarding the question: "I would like to hear that explained by people who believe that temple is their own body. Do they have worshippers inside of them? A court of gentiles?" I think some may disagree, but I don't think we believers of the nations are the New Jerusalem temple.
New Jerusalem doesn't have a temple in the book of Revelation.
Revelation 21
22 I saw no temple in it,
for the Lord God the Almighty and the Lamb are its temple.Christ is the fulfillment of the prophets just like he said he was.
We are the temple and the temple is within us. The father was in Christ just as Christ was in Hs father.
Quote from: Seth on October 13, 2014, 08:42:19 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on October 13, 2014, 07:24:44 PM
The question is, is Israel the people or the land?
If everyone one with a single drop of Jewish/Israelian blood was removed from Jerusalem. would you still call it Jerusalem?
In other words Israel without Israeli is stll the promised land Israel.
Or, is it a house? A family name which does not necessarily encompass physical descendants. Don't take this the wrong way, but think about a house as in the mafia. You can be part of that house without being blood relative if you are sworn in and counted as a member of the house.
My point is and was that Israel can be many things. Land, tribe, spiritual, group of believers, a single person (jacob) and likely some more.
Quote from: WhiteWings on October 13, 2014, 08:49:40 PM
Quote from: Seth on October 13, 2014, 08:42:19 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on October 13, 2014, 07:24:44 PM
The question is, is Israel the people or the land?
If everyone one with a single drop of Jewish/Israelian blood was removed from Jerusalem. would you still call it Jerusalem?
In other words Israel without Israeli is stll the promised land Israel.
Or, is it a house? A family name which does not necessarily encompass physical descendants. Don't take this the wrong way, but think about a house as in the mafia. You can be part of that house without being blood relative if you are sworn in and counted as a member of the house.
My point is and was that Israel can be many things. Land, tribe, spiritual, group of believers, a single person (jacob) and likely some more.
I agree. Adding another aspect.
Quote from: Tom on October 13, 2014, 06:42:28 PM
"For you are the temple of the living God, according as God said, that I will be making My home and will be walking in them, and I will be their God, and they shall be My people." (2 Corinthians 6:16)
Quote from: Tom on October 13, 2014, 06:52:13 PM
Quote from: RaiderGonzo on October 06, 2014, 04:37:02 AM
Many evangelical groups—with Bible prophecy as a motivation—heartily support Israel and the building of a third temple. Some even send considerable sums of money each year for charitable causes in the nation. Similar to some in the Jewish community, they believe supporting Israel will help speed end-time events.
I feel sorry for the Jews that they think they need a building to worship God just like church folks do, but that's their thing. And I think it's kind of a crazy idea that building a new Jewish temple is going to "help speed end-time events" because I'm pretty sure God has his own time table for his plan.
:thumbsup:
Quote from: WhiteWings on October 13, 2014, 07:05:39 PM
..."Go and measure the temple of God and the altar, and count the worshipers there."
2 But exclude the outer court; do not measure it, because it has been given to the Gentiles. They will trample on the holy city for 42 months. 3 And I will give power to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for 1,260 days, clothed in sackcloth.
Could be a way of pinpointing the timing because leap years are 30 days (extra month) longer.
I have thought that too :smile:
Quote from: WhiteWings on October 13, 2014, 07:05:39 PM
4 These are the two olive trees and the two lampstands that stand before the Lord of the earth. 5 If anyone tries to harm them, fire comes from their mouths and devours their enemies. This is how anyone who wants to harm them must die. 6 These men have power to shut up the sky so that it will not rain during the time they are prophesying; and they have power to turn the waters into blood and to strike the earth with every kind of plague as often as they want."
They have the powers of Enoch and Eliah.
Odly enough John also wanted to bring down fire.
I think of the two witnesses as being in Israel/Jerusalem...
and the temple, as spiritual, not our bodies, but all who LOVE and follow Jesus, collectively as the temple..(??) :smile:
This thread is NOT about whether our bodies are temples, BUT
Since there is debate, the scripture says:
[1Co 6:19 ESV] "Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit within you, whom you have from God? You are not your own"
So in light of this scripture (and there are others), how can anyone say, "your body is not a temple."
Marie, I don't disagree about the collective as a temple, but I do believe our bodies are temples too. Jesus spoke about his body as a temple in John 2:21, and Paul said that we should not defile the temple by joining our bodies in fornication.
1 Cor 6
What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?
Quote from: Seth on October 13, 2014, 08:47:19 PM
Quote from: Tom on October 13, 2014, 07:54:41 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on October 13, 2014, 07:05:39 PMI would like to hear that explained by people who believe that temple is their own body. Do they have worshippers inside of them? A court of gentiles?
New Jerusalem doesn't have a temple in the book of Revelation.
Revelation 21
22 I saw no temple in it, for the Lord God the Almighty and the Lamb are its temple.
Christ is the fulfillment of the prophets just like he said he was.
Quote from: Seth on October 13, 2014, 08:49:00 PM
We are the temple and the temple is within us. The father was in Christ just as Christ was in Hs father.
Seth, by now you should know I don't fall for such tactics.
1] You are completely ignoring my question. Do you personally have worshippers inside of yourself? Do you personally have court of Gentiles inside?
2] Revelation 21 is long after the Rev chapter with the gentiles.
3] No Temple remains to be seen. Look very close at New Jerusalem. It's scaled up version of the Temple.
Note: I keep getting the impression that many do not know what the 2 literal Temples were. The Temple is only that small building you see in drawings. The courts are not part of Temple. They are part of the Temple complex.
Quote from: JBerton on October 13, 2014, 09:02:16 PM
This thread is NOT about whether our bodies are temples, BUT
Since there is debate, the scripture says:
[1Co 6:19 ESV] "Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit within you, whom you have from God? You are not your own"
So in light of this scripture (and there are others), how can anyone say, "your body is not a temple."
We must be posting at the same time :laughing7:
The reason I believe this conversation about our bodies as temples has to do with in what way we all read the prophecies differently, and how it factors into whether we should support a physical temple built in brick and mortar Jerusalem. I don't believe in having any active role in that myself. I think if the Jewish people believed in Christ and their bodies became the temple of God, they would hopefully realize that the shadow pointed to the fulfilled reality, and they don't have to fight Muslims just to build a shadow temple at the expense of men, women and children.
Right, I messed up. I forgot there's not a temple in the New Jerusalem, but I still believe we're the temple because that's what scripture says.
Quote from: WhiteWings on October 13, 2014, 09:08:23 PM
Quote from: Seth on October 13, 2014, 08:47:19 PM
Quote from: Tom on October 13, 2014, 07:54:41 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on October 13, 2014, 07:05:39 PMI would like to hear that explained by people who believe that temple is their own body. Do they have worshippers inside of them? A court of gentiles?
New Jerusalem doesn't have a temple in the book of Revelation.
Revelation 21
22 I saw no temple in it, for the Lord God the Almighty and the Lamb are its temple.
Christ is the fulfillment of the prophets just like he said he was.
Quote from: Seth on October 13, 2014, 08:49:00 PM
We are the temple and the temple is within us. The father was in Christ just as Christ was in Hs father.
Seth, by now you should know I don't fall for such tactics.
1] You are completely ignoring my question. Do you personally have worshippers inside of yourself? Do you personally have court of Gentiles inside?
2] Revelation 21 is long after the Rev chapter with the gentiles.
3] No Temple remains to be seen. Look very close at New Jerusalem. It's scaled up version of the Temple.
Note: I keep getting the impression that many do not know what the 2 literal Temples were. The Temple is only that small building you see in drawings. The courts are not part of Temple. They are part of the Temple complex.
Check your accusatory tone please. I am not using "tactics" Thank you :friendstu:
As far as I know, I was responding to Tom, not you. And Marie asked the question about whether we have worshippers within us. What my response is to that, is that God is the temple, so yes, the temple has worshippers in it(him). But also we are the temple, but only because the temple is within us. There is a two aspect fulfillment: God (the temple) in us. Us (the temple) in God.
Quote from: Tom on October 13, 2014, 09:15:44 PM
Right, I messed up. I forgot there's not temple in the New Jerusalem, but I still believe we're the temple because that's what scripture says.
Well, there actually is a temple. Just not a physical one. It says, there is no temple, because God is the temple. See what I mean? There's a temple, but not a temple, not a brick and mortar one. God is the temple, and we are the temple. Him in us, us in him.
Quote from: Seth on October 13, 2014, 09:17:41 PM
Quote from: Tom on October 13, 2014, 09:15:44 PM
Right, I messed up. I forgot there's not temple in the New Jerusalem, but I still believe we're the temple because that's what scripture says.
Well, there actually is a temple. Just not a physical one. It says, there is no temple, because God is the temple. See what I mean? There's a temple, but not a temple, not a brick and mortar one. God is the temple, and we are the temple. Him in us, us in him.
Well, it seems like Revelation 11:1,2 is talking about measuring a literal temple in "Old" Jerusalem.
"And a reed like a rod was given me, and one said, "Rouse, measure the temple of God and the altar and those worshiping in it. And the court outside of the temple cast outside, and you should not be measuring it, for it was given to the nations, and the holy city will they be treading forty-two months." (Revelation 11:1,2)
I'm getting a Revelation brain cramp. I think God is the temple in New Jerusalem. That's why there's no temple.
Quote from: Seth on October 13, 2014, 09:16:10 PM
Check your accusatory tone please. I am not using "tactics" Thank you
Sorry but that's how I see things when you views get challanged.
Quote:friendstu:
We are not and you know that.
QuoteAs far as I know, I was responding to Tom, not you
.
My apologies for posting in a public thread...
I'll just assume you can't or don't want too. I won't bother you with it anymore after competing this post.
QuoteAnd Marie asked the question about whether we have worshippers within us.
Check reply #159 to see who asked what.
QuoteWhat my response is to that, is that God is the temple, so yes, the temple has worshippers in it(him). But also we are the temple, but only because the temple is within us. There is a two aspect fulfillment: God (the temple) in us. Us (the temple) in God.
My response to that is that it doesn't answer the question.
QuoteBut also we are the temple, but only because the temple is within us.
Any verse to support the red part?
Quote from: Tom on October 13, 2014, 09:32:48 PM
Quote from: Seth on October 13, 2014, 09:17:41 PM
Quote from: Tom on October 13, 2014, 09:15:44 PM
Right, I messed up. I forgot there's not temple in the New Jerusalem, but I still believe we're the temple because that's what scripture says.
Well, there actually is a temple. Just not a physical one. It says, there is no temple, because God is the temple. See what I mean? There's a temple, but not a temple, not a brick and mortar one. God is the temple, and we are the temple. Him in us, us in him.
Well, it seems like Revelation 11:1,2 is talking about measuring a literal temple in "Old" Jerusalem.
"And a reed like a rod was given me, and one said, "Rouse, measure the temple of God and the altar and those worshiping in it. And the court outside of the temple cast outside, and you should not be measuring it, for it was given to the nations, and the holy city will they be treading forty-two months." (Revelation 11:1,2)
I'm getting a Revelation brain cramp. I think God is the temple in New Jerusalem. That's why there's no temple.
I agree. That's why I believe Israel does not need to build a third temple to fulfill the scriptures. Christ IS the fulfillment of the temple. He IS the temple. Israel should be seeking out Christ rather than fighting Mulsims.
Quote from: WhiteWings on October 13, 2014, 09:35:23 PM
Quote from: Seth on October 13, 2014, 09:16:10 PM
Check your accusatory tone please. I am not using "tactics" Thank you
Sorry but that's how I see things when you views get challanged.
Quote:friendstu:
We are not and you know that.
QuoteAs far as I know, I was responding to Tom, not you
.
My apologies for posting in a public thread...
I'll just assume you can't or don't want too. I won't bother you with it anymore after competing this post.
QuoteAnd Marie asked the question about whether we have worshippers within us.
Check reply #159 to see who asked what.
QuoteWhat my response is to that, is that God is the temple, so yes, the temple has worshippers in it(him). But also we are the temple, but only because the temple is within us. There is a two aspect fulfillment: God (the temple) in us. Us (the temple) in God.
My response to that is that it doesn't answer the question.
QuoteBut also we are the temple, but only because the temple is within us.
Any verse to support the red part?
I'll just answer the red part. God is the temple of New Jerusalem. That part was quoted already earlier. If God is in his people, that means the temple is in us, being as we
are the temple. And also we are
in the temple (God) as worshippers..
Jesus said two things:
he was in his father, and his father was within him.
White Wings
In past post you have made some insightful
observations on the types and shadows of the Wedding Ceremony.
What part would rebuilding the Third temple have in this ceremony.
Quote from: JBerton on October 13, 2014, 07:10:22 PM
OK, I'm new to this thread at this point. I don't have it in me to read all the posts in this thread at this point, so this may be a repeat. That said:
The Modern nation of Israel is not necessarily Israel.
You can look at it however you choose, but consider this:
Back when Israel divided into two kingdoms, only two tribes split off - Judah and Benjamin.
They became the kingdom of Judah, and the other ten tribes became the kingdom of Israel.
Then later, both kingdoms were taken into captivity, Israel into Assyria, and Judah into Babylon.
After their captivities, Judah (the Judahites and Benjamites) went home to Palestine, BUT Israel (the other ten tribes) never went back.
hi! I've read up on the theory.. and so some think.. but by time Cyrus said "Let aLL Israel in all my kingdom, go home" Ninevah and Assyria were part of that kingdom..
Later, at the census of Nehemiah, when the city was being rebuilt all tribes were numbered
Anna at the temple when Jesus was circumcised was from the tribe of Asher..
We are, however, all believers grafted into Israel who has fallen away (Paul said) that the nations may be grafted in.
.
Quote from: JBerton on October 13, 2014, 07:10:22 PM
Israel dispersed. Where did they go?
dispersed -- twice.. [#1] to assyria - northern kingdom(Israel) and to Babylon - southern kingdom(Judah)
then [#2] after 70 a.d. into all the world.. or large part that is.. and then the vision (prophecy, Ezekiel) of the valley of bones being all Israel
which was not (after 70a.d) but then due to the Balfour Declaration in 1917? 18? Israel was granted part of their homeland from the League of Nations..
Israel revived..
resurrected from valley of bones/not- to again a nation..
Quote from: JBerton on October 13, 2014, 07:10:22 PM
The important thing is that, under the new covenant, it is the believers who are the new nation of Israel.
The Vine and the Branches (both natural branches and grafted-in branches).
The Savior and his ecclesia.
..that I agree with! but for
prophecy and drama's sake (God's truth drama proving good from evil, mankind's history) I believe there is the two..
hence the two groups in Rev chapter 7 "sealed on their forehead" to go along with I would presume, the seal on believer's hearts
Jesus said
to Jerusalem (Israel) "
You-will-not-see-me" (Jesus) "again, until you (Israel) say 'blessed is He who comes in the name of the LORD'.."
Toward 'end' times.. more and more "Jews for Jesus" or 'Jewish' believers.. in Rev 7. Who is sealed out of the 12 tribes is listed. And a
definite number given..
- then "after this" John says "I saw a great crowd
beyond numbering out of every tribe and nations and peoples of the earth.."
So it is my belief that there is much "sealing of foreheads" (clarity?) during the pause which is REV 7:1 "the angels holding back the winds from the 4 corners that they harm no trees nor ppl".... (imo, the pausing of man's splitting of the atom as warfare.. in between 1945 and...? next limited? use) 1945 being told in Rev 13:13, as an office not a man; and in Rev 6:12-17 as a seal which the seals r described as what they are at begin and what they are at end and not even in order, but blended.. a lock on the vision.. 6th seal changed much of the fabric of life, dark that day where it occurred, especially.. "into caves and dens of the earth" (I remember bomb shelters)
:smile: :Peace2: [also cross ref for Israel/Jerusalem will not SEE Jesus again until they say "blessed is He who comes in the name of the LORD" - is (imo) verse Rev 12:17 who
by then have the testimony of Jesus.. and Rev 16:14,15,16]
Quote from: micah7:9 on October 13, 2014, 07:22:36 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on Today at 05:09:58 PM
..."Go and measure the temple of God and the altar, and count the worshipers there."
I find myself thinking, ..where? what or 'which' worshippers? are in the temple... at that time?.. :Chinscratch:
I would like to hear that explained by people who believe that temple is their own body. Do they have worshippers inside of them? A court of gentiles?
I have not looked into it, but perhaps they could be found in Rev. 2 and 3 :2c:
..and also rev 7:9? during a pause, i went into one post before this one..
Wow, Revelation always gets folks crazy! I think it's unnecessary for us believers of the nations to support the building of the third temple in Israel because we are the temple for us according to scripture, and they can build their own temple. I hear those Hasidic Jews have plenty of money in their diamond stashes. Let them finance it.
Amen Tom
Quote from: Seth on October 13, 2014, 08:47:19 PM
Quote from: Tom on October 13, 2014, 07:54:41 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on October 13, 2014, 07:05:39 PM
Quote from: marie glen on October 13, 2014, 06:34:55 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on October 13, 2014, 05:09:58 PM
..."Go and measure the temple of God and the altar, and count the worshipers there."
I find myself thinking, ..where? what or 'which' worshippers? are in the temple... at that time?.. :Chinscratch:
I would like to hear that explained by people who believe that temple is their own body. Do they have worshippers inside of them? A court of gentiles?
QuoteQuote from: WhiteWings on October 13, 2014, 05:09:58 PM
2 But exclude the outer court; do not measure it, because it has been given to the Gentiles. They will trample on the holy city for 42 months. 3 And I will give power to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for 1,260 days, clothed in sackcloth.
:Chinscratch: 42 months is also 1,260 days.. :Chinscratch: :Chinscratch: i'm seeing like possibly two filmstrips.. negatives.. the 1,260 days sitting atop/within the 1,290 days written by Daniel? (12;11,12)
Could be a way of pinpointing the timing because leap years are 30 days (extra month) longer.
QuoteQuote from: WhiteWings on October 13, 2014, 05:09:58 PM
4 These are the two olive trees and the two lampstands that stand before the Lord of the earth. 5 If anyone tries to harm them, fire comes from their mouths and devours their enemies. This is how anyone who wants to harm them must die. 6 These men have power to shut up the sky so that it will not rain during the time they are prophesying; and they have power to turn the waters into blood and to strike the earth with every kind of plague as often as they want."
I'm wondering, if the two, do indeed coincide - the 1,260 of Rev 10 and the 1,290 of Dan 12 - when they are killed.. will be 30 days before the abomination which desolates is 'set-up'... (Daniel 12:12(11) - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Daniel+12%3A11-12&version=NKJV
They have the powers of Enoch and Eliah.
Odly enough John also wanted to bring down fire.
Regarding the question: "I would like to hear that explained by people who believe that temple is their own body. Do they have worshippers inside of them? A court of gentiles?" I think some may disagree, but I don't think we believers of the nations are the New Jerusalem temple.
New Jerusalem doesn't have a temple in the book of Revelation.
Revelation 21
22 I saw no temple in it, for the Lord God the Almighty and the Lamb are its temple.
Christ is the fulfillment of the prophets just like he said he was.
Yes, but this is your literal friend speaking--
The courtyard of the Temple will be trodden underfoot 3.5 years by the Gentiles during the time of Jacob's trouble, also known as the great tribulation.
This is the Middle East we are speaking of--guess who the Gentiles are who are trodding the outer court .
[hint:it's not the church of God and it's not the Jews].
So there will be a third Temple built.
1Then there was given me a measuring rod like a staff; and someone said, "Get up and measure the temple of God and the altar, and those who worship in it. 2"Leave out the court which is outside the temple and do not measure it, for it has been given to the nations; and
they will tread under foot the holy city for forty-two months...
--Rev 11
Ezekiel 40:3
He took me there, and I saw a man whose appearance was like bronze; he was standing in the gateway with a linen cord and a measuring rod in his hand.
Quote from: Molly on October 13, 2014, 07:27:20 PM
5 But while the bridegroom was delayed,
--Mat 25
..seems to take a long time..
..the temple and outer court.. Jerusalem of course is being trampled by gentiles (even now) what with a Mosque sitting above the temple mount.. and also the gentiles/the nations put their own slant on things.. often trampling Israel but something more specific or even more so, of course, during latter 1260 days..?
But the temple in this case I think of as an analogy.. whose temple ye are.. all believers collectively.. the church/the temple.. (imo) and also as an analogy of Jerusalem, holy to YHWH. Did Jesus say the abomination which desolates, will be set-up in the temple..? or where it ought not? (
In Jerusalem? In churches?)...? ("when you see the abomination which desolates set up in the holy place" Jerusalem itself possibly(imo) .."where it ought not"
- "I will keep you from the hour of temptation which will try all men" .."written to the angel of the church of Philadelphia" (true "brotherly love", the Greek, as opposed to beating other members of the household?? a particular temptation during final days?)
OOPs! this is noT toward anyone here!! just a general observation for a long time now..
"set up" Daniel 12:11,12 - “And from the time that the daily sacrifice is taken away, and the abomination of desolation is set up, there shall be
1,290 days. 12 Blessed is he who waits, and comes to the 1,335 days.
...gentiles trample courtyard (outer) 1,260 days.. 30 days after the 2 witnesses R killed in Israel where they prophesy? the Abomination of Desolation (AoD) is (first?) set-up? that is, first time its set up, meaning to me, the 666 apparatus is set up first in Israel? considered by God a holy place.. reserved. "Measure the temple" I believe is simply Israel/Jerusalem, but gentile believers are grafted in!
Quote from: Molly on October 13, 2014, 09:54:56 PM
Yes, but this is your literal friend speaking--
:friendstu:
I have a bit of a different take on what is literal. I see the old temple as a shadow, a metaphor unto itself, of the reality which is Christ. I believe when the reality comes, we don't need to build up the shadows. So, if it is a matter of the OP "should we support the building of the third temple in Jerusalem?" My answer is "no" because why would I need to support it? God is the temple. New Jerusalem has come and will be coming until all is completed. Why do I need to focus my efforts on lending support to a political cause that could destroy millions of lives (potentially, if Israel destroys the Dome of the Rock), for something that is nothing more than a shadow of Christ? It makes no sense to me.
I understand there are many different ways of viewing prophecy fulfillment. But, as far as me supporting the up-building of a shadow, when the reality is come in Christ, even at the cost of so much suffering, no thanks for me. I believe Christian leaders should support a peace treaty and let God deal with everything.
Peacemakers are blessed, not cursed by God. Warmakers are not blessed. Christians have nothing to fear from a God who was in Christ dying for them on the cross, and who says there is no condemnation for those who walk by the Spirit. I have no part in making a physical struggle between Jews and Arabs all the more worse based on an interpretation of prophecies. I'd rather point to the reality. "Hey guys the temple is here! Believe in him and be saved!"
Quote from: marie glen on October 13, 2014, 10:01:55 PM
Quote from: Molly on October 13, 2014, 07:27:20 PM
5 But while the bridegroom was delayed,
--Mat 25
..seems to take a long time..
..the temple and outer court.. Jerusalem of course is being trampled by gentiles (even now) what with a Mosque sitting above the temple mount.. and also the gentiles/the nations put their own slant on things.. often trampling Israel but something more specific or even more so, of course, during latter 1260 days..?
But the temple in this case I think of as an analogy.. whose temple ye are.. all believers collectively.. the church/the temple.. (imo) and also as an analogy of Jerusalem, holy to YHWH. Did Jesus say the abomination which desolates, will be set-up in the temple..? or where it ought not? (In Jerusalem? In churches?)...? ("when you see the abomination which desolates set up in the holy place" Jerusalem itself possibly(imo) .."where it ought not"
- "I will keep you from the hour of temptation which will try all men" .."written to the angel of the church of Philadelphia" (true "brotherly love", the Greek, as opposed to beating other members of the household?? a particular temptation during final days?)
Marie, it specifically says 'the court which outside the
temple. Seems pretty clear to me that there will be a third temple when we put all these verses together.
2"Leave out the court which is outside the temple and do not measure it, for it has been given to the nations; and they will tread under foot the holy city for forty-two months...
Quote from: Seth on October 13, 2014, 10:08:35 PM
Quote from: Molly on October 13, 2014, 09:54:56 PM
Yes, but this is your literal friend speaking--
:friendstu:
I have a bit of a different take on what is literal. I see the old temple as a shadow, a metaphor unto itself, of the reality which is Christ. I believe when the reality comes, we don't need to build up the shadows. So, if it is a matter of the OP "should we support the building of the third temple in Jerusalem?" My answer is "no" because why would I need to support it? God is the temple. New Jerusalem has come and will be coming until all is completed. Why do I need to focus my efforts on lending support to a political cause that could destroy millions of lives (potentially, if Israel destroys the Dome of the Rock), for something that is nothing more than a shadow of Christ? It makes no sense to me.
I understand there are many different ways of viewing prophecy fulfillment. But, as far as me supporting the up-building of a shadow, when the reality is come in Christ, even at the cost of so much suffering, no thanks for me. I believe Christian leaders should support a peace treaty and let God deal with everything.
Peacemakers are blessed, not cursed by God. Warmakers are not blessed. Christians have nothing to fear from a God who was in Christ dying for them on the cross, and who says there is no condemnation for those who walk by the Spirit. I have no part in making a physical struggle between Jews and Arabs all the more worse based on an interpretation of prophecies. I'd rather point to the reality. "Hey guys the temple is here! Believe in him and be saved!"
Yes, of course it is the shadow. But the Jews are still living under that shadow until the end of the Age when the Deliverer comes to save them and take away their sins per the New Covenant made with the house of Judah.
12"FOR I WILL BE MERCIFUL TO THEIR INIQUITIES, AND I WILL REMEMBER THEIR SINS NO MORE." 13When He said, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear.
--Hebrews 8
Jeremiah 50:20
In those days, at that time," declares the LORD, "search will be made for Israel's guilt, but there will be none, and for the sins of Judah, but none will be found, for I will forgive the remnant I spare.
We both agree they are living under the shadow, but the question is, should we support the building of the third temple. I other words, should we support the shadows, and help build the shadows? If so, I find it striking that none of the Apostles preached to any Christian that they should. They didn't breathe a word about the temple other than how it represented heavenly things. So, putting aside ways to interpret the prophecies, I still see no reason to support the up-building of a shadow that could cost so much life and bring suffering, when I'd rather point to the real temple and seek after peace.
Quote from: Seth on October 13, 2014, 10:25:31 PM
We both agree they are living under the shadow, but the question is, should we support the building of the third temple. I other words, should we support the shadows, and help build the shadows? If so, I find it striking that none of the Apostles preached to any Christian that they should. They didn't breathe a word about the temple other than how it represented heavenly things. So, putting aside ways to interpret the prophecies, I still see no reason to support the up-building of a shadow that could cost so much life and bring suffering, when I'd rather point to the real temple and seek after peace.
We have been helping them. We consider them our brothers. USA and UK have always had the back of the Jews in Israel.
I'm looking at prophesy, Seth. Psalm 83 speaks of a confederacy forming against Israel. I could never figure out how that could happen as long as USA and UK had their backs. Well, look at us now. No one could have made that happen except the one in power now who refuses to help Israel and refuses to hurt the confederacy which in its infancy is known as ISIS. I could never have predicted that. The stabilizing leaders have been removed from Egypt, Iraq, Libya, and now Syria is next. They are all poised to join the caliphate. Who could have predicted that?
The Bible predicts it. The Bible talks about the period going forwards as one talks about the labor of a woman giving birth. Ever give birth? The contractions get harder and harder and closer and closer together. All these words, tribulation, trouble, sorrows, refer to birth contractions.
There will be no peace until the birth, it is only going to get worse.
All these are the beginning of sorrows.--Mat 24
"sorrows"G5604
ὠδίν
ōdin
o-deen'
Akin to G3601; a pang or throe,
especially of childbirth: - pain, sorrow, travail.
Quote from: Molly on October 13, 2014, 10:10:31 PM
Marie, it specifically says 'the court which outside the temple. Seems pretty clear to me that there will be a third temple when we put all these verses together.
hi Molly, it doesn't to me, but I think it's very possible.. imo this is one of veRy few things I see as possible analogy :smile:
Quote from: Molly on October 13, 2014, 10:10:31 PM
2"Leave out the court which is outside
...all things
outer being trampled.. the whole world trampled.. by untruth.. also Israel trampled.. the outer and specific Israel..
Jerusalem perhaps seen as God's temple/Jerusalem within which gentile believers are grafted also into..
the court outside the temple, do not measure it, for it has been given to the nations; and they will tread under foot
the holy city for forty-two months...
[/quote]
...outer.. don't measure the (outer) court,
but, they will tread under foot the holy city for forty-two months...But I do believe it is possible a third temple may be built.. time will tell! :smile: God bless!
Quote from: Molly on October 13, 2014, 10:44:21 PM
Quote from: Seth on October 13, 2014, 10:25:31 PM
We both agree they are living under the shadow, but the question is, should we support the building of the third temple. I other words, should we support the shadows, and help build the shadows? If so, I find it striking that none of the Apostles preached to any Christian that they should. They didn't breathe a word about the temple other than how it represented heavenly things. So, putting aside ways to interpret the prophecies, I still see no reason to support the up-building of a shadow that could cost so much life and bring suffering, when I'd rather point to the real temple and seek after peace.
We have been helping them. We consider them our brothers. USA and UK have always had the back of the Jews in Israel.
I'm looking at prophesy, Seth. Psalm 83 speaks of a confederacy forming against Israel. I could never figure out how that could happen as long as USA and UK had their backs. Well, look at us now. No one could have made that happen except the one in power now who refuses to help Israel and refuses to hurt the confederacy which in its infancy is known as ISIS. I could never have predicted that. The stabilizing leaders have been removed from Egypt, Iraq, Libya, and now Syria is next. They are all poised to join the caliphate. Who could have predicted that?
The Bible predicts it. The Bible talks about the period going forwards as one talks about the labor of a woman giving birth. Ever give birth? The contractions get harder and harder and closer and closer together. All these words, tribulation, trouble, sorrows, refer to birth contractions.
There will be no peace until the birth, it is only going to get worse.
All these are the beginning of sorrows.
--Mat 8
"sorrows"
G5604
ὠδίν
ōdin
o-deen'
Akin to G3601; a pang or throe, especially of childbirth: - pain, sorrow, travail.
We have been helping them? Not me. I don't help either side except to point to Christ. If I rather them believe in Jesus and live peacefully, and do good to all men.
The Bible only predicts a physical building of the temple according to how you interpret those prophecies. That's not enough for me to go forward to helping the shadow be built when I see that the reality has come. Not everybody interprets those prophecies the same way as you do. Yes I agree that there will not be peace on the earth until the Lord cleans the entire situation up, but that doesn't mean that I'm going to go ahead and join the war making process and destroy a revered site of Islam to bringing nothing but more pain and war on the earth. I could encourage and promote Jesus instead. I would rather point to the reality of the temple which is come.
Jeremiah and Isaiah prophesied that Babylon would overtake Israel. But that doesn't mean I'm going to go ahead and join Babylon and help destroy Israel just because God prophesied it. And again there are differences of opinions as to what those prophecies mean anyway. I don't read them fulfilled the same way you do.
Quote from: Seth on October 13, 2014, 10:52:10 PM
Quote from: Molly on October 13, 2014, 10:44:21 PM
Quote from: Seth on October 13, 2014, 10:25:31 PM
We both agree they are living under the shadow, but the question is, should we support the building of the third temple. I other words, should we support the shadows, and help build the shadows? If so, I find it striking that none of the Apostles preached to any Christian that they should. They didn't breathe a word about the temple other than how it represented heavenly things. So, putting aside ways to interpret the prophecies, I still see no reason to support the up-building of a shadow that could cost so much life and bring suffering, when I'd rather point to the real temple and seek after peace.
We have been helping them. We consider them our brothers. USA and UK have always had the back of the Jews in Israel.
I'm looking at prophesy, Seth. Psalm 83 speaks of a confederacy forming against Israel. I could never figure out how that could happen as long as USA and UK had their backs. Well, look at us now. No one could have made that happen except the one in power now who refuses to help Israel and refuses to hurt the confederacy which in its infancy is known as ISIS. I could never have predicted that. The stabilizing leaders have been removed from Egypt, Iraq, Libya, and now Syria is next. They are all poised to join the caliphate. Who could have predicted that?
The Bible predicts it. The Bible talks about the period going forwards as one talks about the labor of a woman giving birth. Ever give birth? The contractions get harder and harder and closer and closer together. All these words, tribulation, trouble, sorrows, refer to birth contractions.
There will be no peace until the birth, it is only going to get worse.
All these are the beginning of sorrows.
--Mat 8
"sorrows"
G5604
ὠδίν
ōdin
o-deen'
Akin to G3601; a pang or throe, especially of childbirth: - pain, sorrow, travail.
We have been helping them? Not me. I don't help either side except to point to Christ. If I rather them believe in Jesus and live peacefully, and do good to all men.
The Bible only predicts a physical building of the temple according to how you interpret those prophecies. That's not enough for me to go forward to helping the shadow be built when I see that the reality has come. Not everybody interprets those prophecies the same way as you do. Yes I agree that there will not be peace on the earth until the Lord cleans the entire situation up, but that doesn't mean that I'm going to go ahead and join the war making process and destroy a revered site of Islam to bringing nothing but more pain and war on the earth. I could encourage and promote Jesus instead. I would rather point to the reality of the temple which is come.
Jeremiah and Isaiah prophesied that Babylon would overtake Israel. But that doesn't mean I'm going to go ahead and join Babylon and help destroy Israel just because God prophesied it. And again there are differences of opinions as to what those prophecies mean anyway. I don't read them fulfilled the same way you do.
Of course I do agree with you that we are the temple of God. That is the body of Christ. One does not preclude the other. But I don't believe that anything that happens with the church precludes what will happen with the house of Judah. Scripture indicates otherwise.
A Temple in the Lord19 So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints, and are of God's household, 20having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus Himself being the corner stone, 21in whom the whole building, being fitted together, is growing into a holy temple in the Lord,...
Why can't both be true? Otherwise, what is Jacob's trouble all about? It's not about us. It is about Jacob before the name change to Israel. Don't forget, he is the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.
13"For I am the LORD your God, who upholds your right hand, Who says to you, 'Do not fear, I will help you.' 14"Do not fear, you worm Jacob, you men of Israel; I will help you," declares the LORD, "and your Redeemer is the Holy One of Israel. 15"Behold, I have made you a new, sharp threshing sledge with double edges; You will thresh the mountains and pulverize them, And will make the hills like chaff....
--Isaiah 41
This (today breathing)generation of Jews.
Have they truly been given the opportunity to Reject Jesus the Christ.
Or do they reject the Christ of the God whom tortures Eternally those who reject his Christ.
More significant than any third temple being build.
This generation of Jews may actually hear the true Gospel of the True messiah.
Quote from: dajomaco on October 13, 2014, 11:02:32 PM
This (today breathing)generation of Jews.
Have they truly been given the opportunity to Reject Jesus the Christ.
Or do they reject the Christ of the God whom tortures Eternally those who reject his Christ.
More significant than any third temple being build.
This generation of Jews may actually hear the true Gospel of the True messiah.
:thumbsup:
Quote from: Molly on October 13, 2014, 11:00:53 PM
Quote from: Seth on October 13, 2014, 10:52:10 PM
Quote from: Molly on October 13, 2014, 10:44:21 PM
Quote from: Seth on October 13, 2014, 10:25:31 PM
We both agree they are living under the shadow, but the question is, should we support the building of the third temple. I other words, should we support the shadows, and help build the shadows? If so, I find it striking that none of the Apostles preached to any Christian that they should. They didn't breathe a word about the temple other than how it represented heavenly things. So, putting aside ways to interpret the prophecies, I still see no reason to support the up-building of a shadow that could cost so much life and bring suffering, when I'd rather point to the real temple and seek after peace.
We have been helping them. We consider them our brothers. USA and UK have always had the back of the Jews in Israel.
I'm looking at prophesy, Seth. Psalm 83 speaks of a confederacy forming against Israel. I could never figure out how that could happen as long as USA and UK had their backs. Well, look at us now. No one could have made that happen except the one in power now who refuses to help Israel and refuses to hurt the confederacy which in its infancy is known as ISIS. I could never have predicted that. The stabilizing leaders have been removed from Egypt, Iraq, Libya, and now Syria is next. They are all poised to join the caliphate. Who could have predicted that?
The Bible predicts it. The Bible talks about the period going forwards as one talks about the labor of a woman giving birth. Ever give birth? The contractions get harder and harder and closer and closer together. All these words, tribulation, trouble, sorrows, refer to birth contractions.
There will be no peace until the birth, it is only going to get worse.
All these are the beginning of sorrows.
--Mat 8
"sorrows"
G5604
ὠδίν
ōdin
o-deen'
Akin to G3601; a pang or throe, especially of childbirth: - pain, sorrow, travail.
We have been helping them? Not me. I don't help either side except to point to Christ. If I rather them believe in Jesus and live peacefully, and do good to all men.
The Bible only predicts a physical building of the temple according to how you interpret those prophecies. That's not enough for me to go forward to helping the shadow be built when I see that the reality has come. Not everybody interprets those prophecies the same way as you do. Yes I agree that there will not be peace on the earth until the Lord cleans the entire situation up, but that doesn't mean that I'm going to go ahead and join the war making process and destroy a revered site of Islam to bringing nothing but more pain and war on the earth. I could encourage and promote Jesus instead. I would rather point to the reality of the temple which is come.
Jeremiah and Isaiah prophesied that Babylon would overtake Israel. But that doesn't mean I'm going to go ahead and join Babylon and help destroy Israel just because God prophesied it. And again there are differences of opinions as to what those prophecies mean anyway. I don't read them fulfilled the same way you do.
Of course I do agree with you that we are the temple of God. That is the body of Christ. One does not preclude the other. But I don't believe that anything that happens with the church precludes what will happen with the house of Judah. Scripture indicates otherwise.
A Temple in the Lord
19 So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints, and are of God's household, 20having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus Himself being the corner stone, 21in whom the whole building, being fitted together, is growing into a holy temple in the Lord,...
Why can't both be true? Otherwise, what is Jacob's trouble all about? It's not about us. It is about Jacob before the name change to Israel. Don't forget, he is the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.
13"For I am the LORD your God, who upholds your right hand, Who says to you, 'Do not fear, I will help you.' 14"Do not fear, you worm Jacob, you men of Israel; I will help you," declares the LORD, "and your Redeemer is the Holy One of Israel. 15"Behold, I have made you a new, sharp threshing sledge with double edges; You will thresh the mountains and pulverize them, And will make the hills like chaff....
--Isaiah 41
Again I have a different view on how those prophecies are to be fulfilled. Israel's trouble is in rejecting Christ. If they didn't reject Christ and if they are not still rejecting Christ they would have peace no matter where they lived and no matter what happened to them. That's exactly what happened to Paul and his own persecutions. If they believed in Jesus Christ then they would realize that they don't even need to build the temple all they would have to do is make peace with Muslims and spread the gospel to them too.
I understand how you read the prophecies and how you believe the suffering must happen, and I agree that everything is on God's timetable ultimately. But even if I agreed with how you read them, that doesn't mean I'm going to lend my hand to supporting that which is causing the suffering.
In other words just because the Bible predicts suffering, that doesn't mean that Christians need to have a hand in being the cause of it themselves. I believe in following the simple Commandments of Christ: to be a peacemaker and blessed in that, to do good to all men especially the household of the face, to love my enemy. I don't believe anything wrong can happen in Gods eyes if I do that
Quote from: Molly on October 13, 2014, 10:44:21 PM
We have been helping them. We consider them our brothers. USA and UK have always had the back of the Jews in Israel.
I'm looking at prophesy, Seth. Psalm 83 speaks of a confederacy forming against Israel. I could never figure out how that could happen as long as USA and UK had their backs. Well, look at us now. No one could have made that happen except the one in power now who refuses to help Israel and refuses to hurt the confederacy which in its infancy is known as ISIS. I could never have predicted that. The stabilizing leaders have been removed from Egypt, Iraq, Libya, and now Syria is next. They are all poised to join the caliphate.
:iagree: :iagree: :iagree:
Quote from: Molly on October 13, 2014, 10:44:21 PM
Who could have predicted that?
The Bible predicts it.
yep..!
"when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies" Lk 21 ..."three frogs like demons, go out to gather the kings of the earth" (armies of 'all' nations!) "to armageddon, behold I come suddenly, and they gathered them to a place called Armageddon" (valley of Hinnom) Rev 16:14,15,16. "It is done!" verse 17. (and Rev 14:14-20, not in order as rarely is, plus some chapters are inserts to the Rev narrative, imo, that is:)
Quote from: Seth on October 13, 2014, 11:07:07 PM
Quote from: Molly on October 13, 2014, 11:00:53 PM
Quote from: Seth on October 13, 2014, 10:52:10 PM
Quote from: Molly on October 13, 2014, 10:44:21 PM
Quote from: Seth on October 13, 2014, 10:25:31 PM
We both agree they are living under the shadow, but the question is, should we support the building of the third temple. I other words, should we support the shadows, and help build the shadows? If so, I find it striking that none of the Apostles preached to any Christian that they should. They didn't breathe a word about the temple other than how it represented heavenly things. So, putting aside ways to interpret the prophecies, I still see no reason to support the up-building of a shadow that could cost so much life and bring suffering, when I'd rather point to the real temple and seek after peace.
We have been helping them. We consider them our brothers. USA and UK have always had the back of the Jews in Israel.
I'm looking at prophesy, Seth. Psalm 83 speaks of a confederacy forming against Israel. I could never figure out how that could happen as long as USA and UK had their backs. Well, look at us now. No one could have made that happen except the one in power now who refuses to help Israel and refuses to hurt the confederacy which in its infancy is known as ISIS. I could never have predicted that. The stabilizing leaders have been removed from Egypt, Iraq, Libya, and now Syria is next. They are all poised to join the caliphate. Who could have predicted that?
The Bible predicts it. The Bible talks about the period going forwards as one talks about the labor of a woman giving birth. Ever give birth? The contractions get harder and harder and closer and closer together. All these words, tribulation, trouble, sorrows, refer to birth contractions.
There will be no peace until the birth, it is only going to get worse.
All these are the beginning of sorrows.
--Mat 8
"sorrows"
G5604
ὠδίν
ōdin
o-deen'
Akin to G3601; a pang or throe, especially of childbirth: - pain, sorrow, travail.
We have been helping them? Not me. I don't help either side except to point to Christ. If I rather them believe in Jesus and live peacefully, and do good to all men.
The Bible only predicts a physical building of the temple according to how you interpret those prophecies. That's not enough for me to go forward to helping the shadow be built when I see that the reality has come. Not everybody interprets those prophecies the same way as you do. Yes I agree that there will not be peace on the earth until the Lord cleans the entire situation up, but that doesn't mean that I'm going to go ahead and join the war making process and destroy a revered site of Islam to bringing nothing but more pain and war on the earth. I could encourage and promote Jesus instead. I would rather point to the reality of the temple which is come.
Jeremiah and Isaiah prophesied that Babylon would overtake Israel. But that doesn't mean I'm going to go ahead and join Babylon and help destroy Israel just because God prophesied it. And again there are differences of opinions as to what those prophecies mean anyway. I don't read them fulfilled the same way you do.
Of course I do agree with you that we are the temple of God. That is the body of Christ. One does not preclude the other. But I don't believe that anything that happens with the church precludes what will happen with the house of Judah. Scripture indicates otherwise.
A Temple in the Lord
19 So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints, and are of God's household, 20having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus Himself being the corner stone, 21in whom the whole building, being fitted together, is growing into a holy temple in the Lord,...
Why can't both be true? Otherwise, what is Jacob's trouble all about? It's not about us. It is about Jacob before the name change to Israel. Don't forget, he is the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.
13"For I am the LORD your God, who upholds your right hand, Who says to you, 'Do not fear, I will help you.' 14"Do not fear, you worm Jacob, you men of Israel; I will help you," declares the LORD, "and your Redeemer is the Holy One of Israel. 15"Behold, I have made you a new, sharp threshing sledge with double edges; You will thresh the mountains and pulverize them, And will make the hills like chaff....
--Isaiah 41
Again I have a different view on how those prophecies are to be fulfilled. Israel's trouble is in rejecting Christ. If they didn't reject Christ and if they are not still rejecting Christ they would have peace no matter where they lived and no matter what happened to them. That's exactly what happened to Paul and his own persecutions. If they believed in Jesus Christ then they would realize that they don't even need to build the temple all they would have to do is make peace with Muslims and spread the gospel to them too.
I understand how you read the prophecies and how you believe the suffering must happen, and I agree that everything is on God's timetable ultimately. But even if I agreed with how you read them, that doesn't mean I'm going to lend my hand to supporting that which is causing the suffering.
In other words just because the Bible predicts suffering, that doesn't mean that Christians need to have a hand in being the cause of it themselves. I believe in following the simple Commandments of Christ: to be a peacemaker and blessed in that, to do good to all men especially the household of the face, to love my enemy. I don't believe anything wrong can happen in Gods eyes if I do that
Yes, everyone must make that determination for themselves. For me, when I see the Christians in the Middle East being beheaded and driven from the homes they have occupied for 2000 years, all I can think is, Somebody do something! This even if I know it is prophecy being fulfilled. So I travail in the Spirit. I suspect you do, too, from what you have said.
Ultimately, once the childbirth begins, there is nothing we can do to stop it. We can only offer comfort and alms to those going through it directly.
Quote from: eaglesway on October 13, 2014, 11:03:42 PM
Quote from: dajomaco on October 13, 2014, 11:02:32 PM
This (today breathing)generation of Jews.
Have they truly been given the opportunity to Reject Jesus the Christ.
Or do they reject the Christ of the God whom tortures Eternally those who reject his Christ.
More significant than any third temple being build.
This generation of Jews may actually hear the true Gospel of the True messiah.
:thumbsup:
me too! :iagree:
...per according to God's plan and choice.. "some He hardens".. "til the gentiles be brought in.." .."if their falling away be salvation" (to the nations) "what will their being gathered be, but life from the dead"? The resurrection/return of Jesus..?
"Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you will not see me again" Jesus said, "until you say-blessed is He Who comes in the name of the LORD."
QuoteFor me, when I see the Christians in the Middle East being beheaded and driven from the homes they have occupied for 2000 years, all I can think is, Somebody do something!
Oh yes I absolutely do travailing that. It's horrible and awful what's happening both to the Jews and also to not only them but the Christians living in Palestine. Also the Palestinians who really don't have much to do with it like the children.
There are many more people suffering than just the Jewish people. Jesus loves them all, as I think we would both agree.
Now concerning that day or hour no one knows—neither the angels in heaven nor the Son—except the Father. 33 Watch! Be alert![m] For you don't know when the time is coming.
Isn't the reverse of the above true also .
We know for sure the Hour and Day are not going to be tomorrow
because the third temple is not built yet.
As a matter of fact we can all relax because it's going to take a least a year,
maybe six months to build the temple.
We might be able to kick back for a few more years waiting for the temple to be built.
But once the Temples build we better be watchful.
I think all the anxiety about Revelation is unnecessary because we'll be snatched away before things get heavy. I don't give Revelation much thought until it comes up in a thread like this, and then all the literal vs. figurative stuff starts getting crazy.
One of the things that intrigues me, is if they build a literal temple in Israel, how will they determine who the Law allows to serve in it? I was under the impression that in 70AD that the genealogical records were lost and that there is no way to determine who is a Levite. In Nehemiah 7:64, they used the records to establish whether or not a claimant for the priesthood could be established, and found that they weren't so they were considered unclean for the priesthood. I am wondering what the method will be for tracing the modern priesthood's descent from that tribe. I've read articles about the Temple Institute in Jerusalem saying that they have Levite priests ready and trained, but it didn't say how they determined them to be Levites.
I say, instead of supporting a new temple for the Jews, maybe we should support a new server for Tentmaker because this thing is wacko today.
Also, I wonder if building the shadow temple would lead to the eventual move toward a theocracy. I don't know. On the one hand, I don't see the current secular government of Israel ordering its citizens to make sacrifices. I would probably be done by the high priest as a ceremonial rite, but everyone else could do as they please. There would probably be a sect in Israel that would promote moving toward a theocracy built on the OT, but not sure how far that would go. Who knows. Pride in the new temple could cause people to seriously consider it. That would be a very interesting turn of events.
Quote from: Tom on October 14, 2014, 12:02:37 AM
I say, instead of supporting a new temple for the Jews, maybe we should support a new server for Tentmaker because this thing is wacko today.
:laughing7: Right?
Quote from: Seth on October 13, 2014, 11:55:02 PM
One of the things that intrigues me, is if they build a literal temple in Israel, how will they determine who the Law allows to serve in it? I was under the impression that in 70AD that the genealogical records were lost and that there is no way to determine who is a Levite. In Nehemiah 7:64, they used the records to establish whether or not a claimant for the priesthood could be established, and found that they weren't so they were considered unclean for the priesthood. I am wondering what the method will be for tracing the modern priesthood's descent from that tribe. I've read articles about the Temple Institute in Jerusalem saying that they have Levite priests ready and trained, but it didn't say how they determined them to be Levites.
DNA [don't get crazy on me now :laugh:]
Kohanim Y chromosome seen in about 7 percent of Jews.
It is unique and distinct from other Jews.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MbbpO8bs-5E
http://www.cohen-levi.org/jewish_genes_and_genealogy/the_dna_chain_of_tradition.htm
Quote from: Tom on October 14, 2014, 03:32:44 AM
http://www.cohen-levi.org/jewish_genes_and_genealogy/the_dna_chain_of_tradition.htm
29 "So Aaron shall bear the names of the sons of Israel on the breastplate of judgment over his heart, when he goes into the holy place, as a memorial before the Lord continually. 30 And you shall put in the breastplate of judgment the Urim and the Thummim, and they shall be over Aaron's heart when he goes in before the Lord. So Aaron shall bear the judgment of the children of Israel over his heart before the Lord continually.
--Exodus 28
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ioYAjdDALqk
Quote from: Molly on October 14, 2014, 03:24:30 AM
DNA [don't get crazy on me now :laugh:]
:laughing7:
Quote from: Molly on October 14, 2014, 03:41:05 AM
Quote from: Tom on October 14, 2014, 03:32:44 AM
http://www.cohen-levi.org/jewish_genes_and_genealogy/the_dna_chain_of_tradition.htm
29 "So Aaron shall bear the names of the sons of Israel on the breastplate of judgment over his heart, when he goes into the holy place, as a memorial before the Lord continually. 30 And you shall put in the breastplate of judgment the Urim and the Thummim, and they shall be over Aaron's heart when he goes in before the Lord. So Aaron shall bear the judgment of the children of Israel over his heart before the Lord continually.
--Exodus 28
Hmm...so it has something to do with the heart particularly of the high priest :Chinscratch:
IMO, The temple will not be built until the threat of jihad is eliminated by war or held at bay by treaty.
IMO, the temple may not get rebuilt by the Jews, and the Jews are mostly not of Israel. The tribe of Judah was one of twelve or thirteen tribes, depending on how you count them. After the exile in Babylon, only a small fraction of Judah and Benjamin ever returned to the old territories. The rest are probably Christians or Muslims today. The Jews of today claim descent from the tribe of Judah, but most, especially the eastern European variety, are descended from the tribe and nation of the Kazars, a branch of the Turks, a branch of the Japhethites. Their claim then, to the promises given to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob/Israel, including the land promises, are so thin that we can conclude that they are the Jews who are not Jews (of Judah) spoken of in Revelation. To support them is to go against God.
However, trying to convince most folks of this is about as easy as arguing against the existence of Hell.
Jewish DNA - The Kohanim Gene and the Lost Tribes of Israel
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ioYAjdDALqk
DNA Dynamite! Are Palestinians Actually Jews
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QLSaX1CamTA
Quote from: Lazarus Short on October 14, 2014, 09:42:06 AM
IMO, the temple may not get rebuilt by the Jews, and the Jews are mostly not of Israel. The tribe of Judah was one of twelve or thirteen tribes, depending on how you count them. After the exile in Babylon, only a small fraction of Judah and Benjamin ever returned to the old territories. The rest are probably Christians or Muslims today. The Jews of today claim descent from the tribe of Judah, but most, especially the eastern European variety, are descended from the tribe and nation of the Kazars, a branch of the Turks, a branch of the Japhethites. Their claim then, to the promises given to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob/Israel, including the land promises, are so thin that we can conclude that they are the Jews who are not Jews (of Judah) spoken of in Revelation. To support them is to go against God.
However, trying to convince most folks of this is about as easy as arguing against the existence of Hell.
Laz,
Where in the Revelation is this found, about the jews who are not jews?
Rev 2:9 I have known thy works, and tribulation, and poverty--yet thou art rich--and the evil-speaking of those saying themselves to be Jews, and are not, but are a synagogue of the Adversary.
Rev 3:9 lo, I make of the synagogue of the Adversary those saying themselves to be Jews, and are not, but do lie; lo, I will make them that they may come and bow before thy feet, and may know that I loved thee.
..this thread seems like a good place to leave this link.. it's Sinead O'connor singing Psalm 91 :smile:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5_CoCepMu7k
(not even an ad in the intro!)
a song to make us smile..
:HeartThrob:
Quote from: Lazarus Short on October 14, 2014, 09:42:06 AM
IMO, the temple may not get rebuilt by the Jews, and the Jews are mostly not of Israel. The tribe of Judah was one of twelve or thirteen tribes, depending on how you count them. After the exile in Babylon, only a small fraction of Judah and Benjamin ever returned to the old territories. The rest are probably Christians or Muslims today. The Jews of today claim descent from the tribe of Judah, but most, especially the eastern European variety, are descended from the tribe and nation of the Kazars, a branch of the Turks, a branch of the Japhethites. Their claim then, to the promises given to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob/Israel, including the land promises, are so thin that we can conclude that they are the Jews who are not Jews (of Judah) spoken of in Revelation. To support them is to go against God.
However, trying to convince most folks of this is about as easy as arguing against the existence of Hell.
Thats because it is a dubious teaching. Hitler was not exterminating the Japhethites or Kazars. He was exterminating the Jews.
In my opinion, it wouldn't matter anyway. The phrase "in Isaac thy seed shall be called" is the same logic as saying "in Christ thy seed shall be called." Not according to the flesh, and never was, but by the reckoning of God according to a chosen sonship. The promises are only for the seed of Abraham.
Quote from: eaglesway on October 15, 2014, 12:32:28 AM
Quote from: Lazarus Short on October 14, 2014, 09:42:06 AM
IMO, the temple may not get rebuilt by the Jews, and the Jews are mostly not of Israel. The tribe of Judah was one of twelve or thirteen tribes, depending on how you count them. After the exile in Babylon, only a small fraction of Judah and Benjamin ever returned to the old territories. The rest are probably Christians or Muslims today. The Jews of today claim descent from the tribe of Judah, but most, especially the eastern European variety, are descended from the tribe and nation of the Kazars, a branch of the Turks, a branch of the Japhethites. Their claim then, to the promises given to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob/Israel, including the land promises, are so thin that we can conclude that they are the Jews who are not Jews (of Judah) spoken of in Revelation. To support them is to go against God.
However, trying to convince most folks of this is about as easy as arguing against the existence of Hell.
Thats because it is a dubious teaching. Hitler was not exterminating the Japhethites or Kazars. He was exterminating the Jews.
I really don't care to debate this, but having studied into this matter for some decades now, I see it as far beyond "dubious." Anyway, what does Hitler have to do with it? Those who have penetrated beyond the History 101 level of things know that a Nazi extermination program is dubious, especially when it comes to light that the 6 million dead lie was attempted at the end of WW I. If you want to play the Hitler card, I'll mention that it is known that his personal driver was Jewish.
There's a whole world of things in this world we believe to be true, that just ain't so...
:sigh: yea, let's not debate that.
Quote from: Lazarus Short on October 15, 2014, 01:23:05 AM
There's a whole world of things in this world we believe to be true, that just ain't so...
I believe there's some truth in that. I also believe there's a whole lot of theories and conspiracy speculation - often grouped within certain websites - that can't just be taken as the truth without question either. I believe it can be hard to know for sure...I looked at the site you linked to earlier Laz, and saw in plain site an article claiming God is just imagination, made up, etc...so personally, that's probably not a site I'd try to gather a whole lot of my beliefs and information from. Again, I think sources must be examined, weighed, prayed about, and few things in such matters are "automatic". :2c:
Quote from: jabcat on October 15, 2014, 02:04:27 AM
Quote from: Lazarus Short on October 15, 2014, 01:23:05 AM
There's a whole world of things in this world we believe to be true, that just ain't so...
I believe there's some truth in that. I also believe there's a whole lot of theories and conspiracy speculation - often grouped within certain websites - that can't just be taken as the truth without question either. I believe it can be hard to know for sure...I looked at the site you linked to earlier Laz, and saw in plain site an article claiming God is just imagination, made up, etc...so personally, that's probably not a site I'd try to gather a whole lot of my beliefs and information from. Again, I think sources must be examined, weighed, prayed about, and few things in such matters are "automatic". :2c:
If you are referring to Jeff Rense's site, I know what you mean. There is some vital information, but New Age bias must be filtered out, as well as a lot of plain B.S. The Information Age has given us a lot, but has also demonstrated that many things cannot be verified with certainty, especially when so many agendas are secret and suspect.
The Coming Day of Judgment
...2"But who can endure the day of His coming? And who can stand when He appears? For He is like a refiner's fire and like fullers' soap. 3"He will sit as a smelter and purifier of silver, and He will purify the sons of Levi and refine them like gold and silver, so that they may present to the LORD offerings in righteousness. 4"Then the offering of Judah and Jerusalem will be pleasing to the LORD as in the days of old and as in former years....
--Malachi 3
Malachi is the last book of the Old Testament. The prophecy says that when Jesus returns he will purify the Levite priesthood so that they may present offerings to the Lord in righteousness.
That means that there will be a Levite priesthood when Jesus returns [as is being reconstructed in Israel today] and that implies there will also be a third Temple. Today in Israel the priesthood is being chosen, outfitted, and trained for their performance in a temple which has not yet been built--so that they will be ready to go when the temple is built.
The passage also says that the relationship between God and the Jews [Judah] will be restored as in former years.
1 Peter 2
9But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light: 10Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.
Quote from: Seth on October 15, 2014, 08:19:08 AM
1 Peter 2
9But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light: 10Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.
Yes. Two things about that verse.
1)We are a royal priesthood, that is, the Melchizedek priesthood. This is not the Levite priesthood. This priesthood is not based on genealogy, but on an indestructable life.
15And this is clearer still, if another priest arises according to the likeness of Melchizedek, 16who has become such not on the basis of a law of physical requirement,
but according to the power of an indestructible life. 17For it is attested of Him, "YOU ARE A PRIEST FOREVER ACCORDING TO THE ORDER OF MELCHIZEDEK."...
--Hebrews 7
25Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me will live even if he dies, 26and everyone who lives and believes in Me will never die.
--John 11
Like Jesus, we are both king and priest, which is why he is called King of kings and Lord of lords.
2) The second thing I'd like to comment on is that phrase you have underlined which also signals who we are.
which in time past were not a peopleDoes this ring a bell? Not a people is Lo-ammi from the book of Hosea. God tells the northern kingdom of Israel through his prophet that he is sending them away as Lo-ammi, not a people. but then, Hosea is told to prophesy that Lo-ammi will become the sons of the living God. Sound familiar? This is one of the main reasons that I consider the Christians the lost tribes of Israel, formerly known as "not a people.' They will be lost to history until Christ comes for them as Messiah ben Joseph [a name for Messiah used by the rabbi's] and, of course, Joseph, through Ephraim, is the code word for the northern kingdom of Israel. One thing we also know for the time being is that this prophecy was not made of the 15 million Jews. It more likely fits the 2 billion Christians.
9 Then God said:
"Call his name Lo-Ammi,
For you are not My people,
And I will not be your God.
The Restoration of Israel10
"Yet the number of the children of Israel
Shall be as the sand of the sea,
Which cannot be measured or numbered.
And it shall come to pass
In the place where it was said to them,
'You are not My people,'
There it shall be said to them,
'You are sons of the living God.'11
Then the children of Judah and the children of Israel
Shall be gathered together,
And appoint for themselves one head;
And they shall come up out of the land,
For great will be the day of Jezreel!
--Hosea 1
"Lo-ammi"H3818
לא עמּי
lô' ‛ammı̂y
lo am-mee'
From H3808 and H5971 with pronominal suffix,
not my people; lo Ammi, the symbolical name of a son of Hosea: - Lo-ammi.
In the place where it was said to them, you are not my people--that place is Samaria, the capital of the northern kingdom of Israel, also known as Joseph, also known as Ephraim, also known as the lost tribes, --the place where they were told they were not a people, and the place where Jesus first announced himself as the Messiah, to the woman at the well.
19 The woman said to Him, "Sir, I perceive that You are a prophet. 20 Our fathers worshiped on this mountain, and you Jews say that in Jerusalem is the place where one ought to worship."
21 Jesus said to her, "Woman, believe Me, the hour is coming when you will neither on this mountain, nor in Jerusalem, worship the Father. 22 You worship what you do not know; we know what we worship, for salvation is of the Jews. 23 But the hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for the Father is seeking such to worship Him. 24 God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth."
25 The woman said to Him, "I know that Messiah is coming" (who is called Christ). "When He comes, He will tell us all things."
26 Jesus said to her, "I who speak to you am He."
--John 4
Quote from: Molly on October 15, 2014, 07:36:51 AM
The Coming Day of Judgment
...2"But who can endure the day of His coming? And who can stand when He appears? For He is like a refiner's fire and like fullers' soap. 3"He will sit as a smelter and purifier of silver, and He will purify the sons of Levi and refine them like gold and silver, so that they may present to the LORD offerings in righteousness. 4"Then the offering of Judah and Jerusalem will be pleasing to the LORD as in the days of old and as in former years....
--Malachi 3
Malachi is the last book of the Old Testament. The prophecy says that when Jesus returns he will purify the Levite priesthood so that they may present offerings to the Lord in righteousness.
That means that there will be a Levite priesthood when Jesus returns [as is being reconstructed in Israel today] and that implies there will also be a third Temple. Today in Israel the priesthood is being chosen, outfitted, and trained for their performance in a temple which has not yet been built--so that they will be ready to go when the temple is built.
The passage also says that the relationship between God and the Jews [Judah] will be restored as in former years.
Molly sis , I love it
and agree , when we look for the examples of this very work of God the road to Damascus when Saul met Jesus in the Spirit and truth it blinded him , Jesus said he would cause the blind to see and those who see made blind
Saul /Paul was a Levite and of the tribe of Benjamin , all this is prophecy sis !
Philippians 3 1Therefore, my brethren, rejoice in Our Lord; it is not tedious to me as I write these same things to you, because they protect you.
2Beware of dogs; beware of evildoers;
beware of the circumcisers.
3F
or we are the circumcision, those who serve God in The Spirit, and we glory in Yeshua The Messiah, and we do not trust upon the flesh, 4As I did have trust in the flesh, for if a man has hoped in his trust in the flesh, I have more than he: 5C
ircumcised on the eighth day, of the family of Israel, from the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew, son of a Hebrew, in the Law, a Pharisee; 6In zeal, a persecutor of the church, in righteousness of The Written Law I was without indictment.7
But these things that were advantages to me, I have accounted losses for the sake of The Messiah. 8I also consider all these things a loss for the majesty of the knowledge of Yeshua The Messiah, my Lord, him for whose sake I have lost everything, and I consider it all as a dung heap, that I may gain The Messiah,
9And be found in him, while I do not have my own righteousness, which is from The Written Law, but that which is from the faith of The Messiah, which is the righteousness that is from God,
10That by it I may know Yeshua and the power of his resurrection, and that I may share in his sufferings and be conformed with his death,
11That perhaps I may be able to come to the resurrection from the place of the dead. we see Saul , being changed of garments from the Levi priesthood to the Melchizedek and a new name Paul
from Saul meaning asked to Paul meaning small or little , the least shall become the greatest , says even John the baptizer would be lesser than the least in Gods kingdom Matthew 11:11
Verily I say unto you, Among them
that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist:
notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he. this is the shadow and Law of turning and that shadow of the moon[ Moses , turning to blood ] suffering the violence of exposing sin and stars [Elijah /prophets ] to the Lord Jesus Christ [ the Sun / Son of righteousness ] and healing/ turning from sin to Christ being our High Priest Hebrews 9
born of woman under the Law , Jesus Come in the fullness of times to fulfill and finish the work that had started with the Law and prophets , all the blood shed and Yet Jesus was the end of sacrifices of blood /life to all mankind
and so the new priesthood and covenant begins when He rose up in Glory to the honor of the Father [GOD ]
I love reading you guys posts it makes me think of the scriptures in a different way , very helpful
love and missed you girl , love to all :flowerred:
Quote from: Molly on October 15, 2014, 09:23:01 AM
Quote from: Seth on October 15, 2014, 08:19:08 AM
1 Peter 2
9But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light: 10Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.
Yes. Two things about that verse.
1)We are a royal priesthood, that is, the Melchizedek priesthood. This is not the Levite priesthood. This priesthood is not based on genealogy, but on an indestructable life.
15And this is clearer still, if another priest arises according to the likeness of Melchizedek, 16who has become such not on the basis of a law of physical requirement, but according to the power of an indestructible life. 17For it is attested of Him, "YOU ARE A PRIEST FOREVER ACCORDING TO THE ORDER OF MELCHIZEDEK."...
--Hebrews 7
25Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me will live even if he dies, 26and everyone who lives and believes in Me will never die.
--John 11
Like Jesus, we are both king and priest, which is why he is called King of kings and Lord of lords.
2) The second thing I'd like to comment on is that phrase you have underlined which also signals who we are.
which in time past were not a people
Does this ring a bell? Not a people is Lo-ammi from the book of Hosea. God tells the northern kingdom of Israel through his prophet that he is sending them away as Lo-ammi, not a people. but then, Hosea is told to prophesy that Lo-ammi will become the sons of the living God. Sound familiar? This is one of the main reasons that I consider the Christians the lost tribes of Israel, formerly known as "not a people.' They will be lost to history until Christ comes for them as Messiah ben Joseph [a name for Messiah used by the rabbi's] and, of course, Joseph, through Ephraim, is the code word for the northern kingdom of Israel. One thing we also know for the time being is that this prophecy was not made of the 15 million Jews. It more likely fits the 2 billion Christians.
9 Then God said:
"Call his name Lo-Ammi,
For you are not My people,
And I will not be your God.
The Restoration of Israel
10
"Yet the number of the children of Israel
Shall be as the sand of the sea,
Which cannot be measured or numbered.
And it shall come to pass
In the place where it was said to them,
'You are not My people,'
There it shall be said to them,
'You are sons of the living God.'
11
Then the children of Judah and the children of Israel
Shall be gathered together,
And appoint for themselves one head;
And they shall come up out of the land,
For great will be the day of Jezreel!
--Hosea 1
"Lo-ammi"
H3818
לא עמּי
lô' ‛ammı̂y
lo am-mee'
From H3808 and H5971 with pronominal suffix, not my people; lo Ammi, the symbolical name of a son of Hosea: - Lo-ammi.
In the place where it was said to them, you are not my people--that place is Samaria, the capital of the northern kingdom of Israel, also known as Joseph, also known as Ephraim, also known as the lost tribes, --the place where they were told they were not a people, and the place where Jesus first announced himself as the Messiah, to the woman at the well.
19 The woman said to Him, "Sir, I perceive that You are a prophet. 20 Our fathers worshiped on this mountain, and you Jews say that in Jerusalem is the place where one ought to worship."
21 Jesus said to her, "Woman, believe Me, the hour is coming when you will neither on this mountain, nor in Jerusalem, worship the Father. 22 You worship what you do not know; we know what we worship, for salvation is of the Jews. 23 But the hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for the Father is seeking such to worship Him. 24 God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth."
25 The woman said to Him, "I know that Messiah is coming" (who is called Christ). "When He comes, He will tell us all things."
26 Jesus said to her, "I who speak to you am He."
--John 4
I never saw that Malachi 3 verse referring to the final judgment. Judgment has begun by fire at the house of God, after all. Any son of Levi that believes in Jesus is beings cleansed by fire and soap. I believe that prophecy is being fulfilled in them that believe and then they become the true priesthood.
"I never saw that Malachi 3 verse referring to the final judgment. Judgment has begun by fire at the house of God, after all. Any son of Levi that believes in Jesus is beings cleansed by fire and soap. I believe that prophecy is being fulfilled in them that believe and then they become the true priesthood."--Seth
"But who can endure the day of His coming?
And who can stand when He appears?"
--Malachi 3
Except that this is referring to the day of the Lord, which is second coming of Christ.
And, it is also referring to the Levite priesthood which ended in 70ad and is being revived today.
I agree that the Melchizedek priesthood is the true priesthood, but that is only open to those who are chosen.
This Malachi prophecy is talking about 'the day" of the Lord, and one thing that will happen on that day, and therefore I believe it is an end time prophecy.
Then the passage goes on to talk about the restoration of the relationship between Judah/Jerusalem and God. That certainly did not happen in 70 ad. And, for 2000 years, the only time that could happen is after 1948.
"Then the offering of Judah and Jerusalem
Will be pleasant to the Lord,
As in the days of old,
As in former years.
"For I am the Lord, I do not change;
Therefore you are not consumed, O sons of Jacob.
Yet from the days of your fathers
You have gone away from My ordinances
And have not kept them.
Return to Me, and I will return to you,"
Says the Lord of Hosts.
--Malachi 3
Can you show me how this prophecy isn't specifically concerning the Jews and Jerusalem? I don't see how you can attribute a prophecy about Judah, Jacob, and Jerusalem to the Christians.
25 For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. 26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written:
"The Deliverer will come out of Zion,
And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob;
27
For this is My covenant with them,
When I take away their sins."
28 Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers. 29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. 30 For as you were once disobedient to God, yet have now obtained mercy through their disobedience, 31 even so these also have now been disobedient, that through the mercy shown you they also may obtain mercy. 32 For God has committed them all to disobedience, that He might have mercy on all
--Romans 11
Quote from: Molly on October 15, 2014, 07:17:16 PM
"I never saw that Malachi 3 verse referring to the final judgment. Judgment has begun by fire at the house of God, after all. Any son of Levi that believes in Jesus is beings cleansed by fire and soap. I believe that prophecy is being fulfilled in them that believe and then they become the true priesthood."--Seth
"But who can endure the day of His coming?
And who can stand when He appears?"
--Malachi 3
Except that this is referring to the day of the Lord, which is second coming of Christ.
And, it is also referring to the Levite priesthood which ended in 70ad and is being revived today.
Well, the prophecy states that the Lord is coming and will refine and purify according to fire, the sons of Levi.
It does not say that it is referring to 70AD or the second coming. That is what people infer. And, interpretations are fine, but there are other interpretations. I actually view the fire and soap to be symbolic as well as "the sons of Levi" symbolizing the priesthood itself as purified in Christ's body. But even if it references fleshy sons of Levi, this does not necessitate a third temple in the future. The sons of Levi, whether priests or no priests are purified starting with their belief, going back 2000 years. Their sacrifices are made purified in Christ, through offerings of praise.
Jesus' FIRST coming was prophesied in scripture, after all. If we take the promised coming as ALWAYS representing the second coming, then that would mean that the first coming was never prophesied itself.
QuoteCan you show me how this prophecy isn't specifically concerning the Jews and Jerusalem? I don't see how you can attribute a prophecy about Judah, Jacob, and Jerusalem to the Christians.
Lets' take a look at how that can be done:
Rom 9:23-25
What if he did that (making the Israelites vessels of destruction) to show the riches of his glory to others? Those are the people he shows his mercy to. He had prepared them to receive his glory. We are those people. He has chosen us.
We do not come only from the Jewish race. Many of us are not Jews. God says in Hosea,
"I will call those who are not my people 'my people.' I will call the one who is not my loved one 'my loved one.'" He also says, "Once it was said to them, "You are not my people.' In that very place they will be called 'children of the living God.'"
Let's look at the original prophecy:
Hosea 2:9-13
"Therefore I will take away my grain when it ripens, and my new wine when it is ready. I will take back my wool and my linen, intended to cover her (Israel's) nakedness.
So now I will expose her lewdness before the eyes of her lovers (their idols); no one will take her out of my hands. I will stop all her celebrations: her yearly festivals, her New Moons, her Sabbath days—all her appointed feasts. I will ruin her vines and her fig trees, which she said were her pay from her lovers; I will make them a thicket, and wild animals will devour them. I will punish her for the days she burned incense to the Baals; she decked herself with rings and jewelry, and went after her lovers, but me she forgot," declares the LORD.
God declares judgment. Then, a restoration.
Hosea 2:14-17, 20-23
I am now going to allure her; I will lead her into the desert and speak tenderly to her.
There I will give her back her vineyards, and will make the Valley of Achor a door of hope. There she will sing as in the days of her youth, as in the day she came up out of Egypt. "In that day," declares the LORD,
"you will call me 'my husband'; you will no longer call me 'my master.' I will remove the names of the Baals from her lips; no longer will their names be invoked.
I will betroth you in faithfulness, and you will acknowledge the LORD. "In that day I will respond," declares the LORD— "I will respond to the skies, and they will respond to the earth; and the earth will respond to the grain, the new wine and oil, and they will respond to Jezreel. I will plant her for myself in the land;
I will show my love to the one I called 'Not my loved one.' I will say to those called 'Not my people,' 'You are my people'; and they will say, 'You are my God.'"The entire prophecy was about Israel, so why did Paul apply it to Gentiles? Because of what Hosea also said about Israel:
Hosea 11:1-2
The LORD continues,"When Israel was a young nation, I loved them.
I chose to bring my son out of Egypt. But the more I called out to Israel, the further they went away from me. They brought sacrifices to the statues of the gods that were named after Baal. And they burned incense to them.
Matthew applies this prophecy directly to Jesus when Mary took him to Egypt then returned with him (Matthew 2:13-15). Of course, when we consider sin as Egypt, when we enter Christ, we become Israel escaping the slavery of Egypt. Paul applied the Hosea scripture about Israel to Gentiles, because he understood Israel as a TREE, from which natural branches could be cut away, and wild branches grafted in.
Similar interpretation happens in Amos:
Amos (selections up to ch. 9)
I (God) will send fire ...I will send fire. I will send fire ... I will send fire ... I will send fire ... Seek the Lord and live, or he will sweep through the house of Joseph like a fire ... the Lord will smash the great house into pieces ... I will spare my people Israel no longer ...The time is ripe for my people Israel; I will spare them no longer ... Are not you Israelites the same to me as the Cucrapes ... I will destroy it from the face of the earth on that day I will restore David's fallen tent ... I will bring back my exiled people Israel. I will plant Israel in their own land, never again to be uprooted. (NIV)
James interprets it this way:
Acts 15:13
When they finished, James spoke up: "Brothers, listen to me. Simon has described to us how God at first showed his concern by taking from the Gentiles a people for himself. The words of the prophets are in agreement with this, as it is written: "'After this (ie sending fire)
I will return and rebuild David's fallen tent. Its ruins I will rebuild, and I will restore it, that
the remnant of men may seek the Lord,
and all the Gentiles who bear my name, says the Lord, who does these things'
Israel is a house. A family. It was judged by cutting off natural branches, but bringing back a few remnant branches and grafting them to Christ, and those branches were used to graft more wild branches onto the tree. It is restored by God sending his son (who is Israel itself, the single seed) to add unto himself a people for his name, by taking Jewish ("the remnant of men") and Gentile believers and making of the two, one man, one Jew, Jesus Christ, the body as a new creation.
Romans 11:1-7
I say then, God has not rejected His people, has He? May it never be! For I too am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. God has not rejected His people whom He foreknew. Or do you not know what the Scripture says in the passage about Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel? 3 "Lord, they have killed Your prophets, they have torn down Your altars, and I alone am left, and they are seeking my life." 4 But what is the divine response to him? "I have kept for Myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal." In the same way then, there has also come to be at the present time a remnant according to God's [c]gracious choice. But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace.
7 What then? What Israel is seeking, it has not obtained, but those who were chosen obtained it, and the rest were hardened;
That is the manner in which God has not rejected his people. Paul was a member of the remnant (the post judgment of Israel branch cutting). Elijah was a remnant. The 7,000 knees which did not bow to Ba'al were a remnant. What this is saying is that God judged Israel by fire, by cutting away the natural branches, but SAVING A REMNANT, and with that remnant, David's tent is rebuilt by grafting the wild branches onto the tree and Israel grows to this very day.
"Well, the prophecy states that the Lord is coming and will refine and purify according to fire, the sons of Levi"Quote from: SethIt does not say that it is referring to 70AD or the second coming. That is what people infer. And, interpretations are fine, but there are other interpretations. I actually view the fire and soap to be symbolic as well as "the sons of Levi" symbolizing the priesthood itself as purified in Christ's body. But even if it references fleshy sons of Levi, this does not necessitate a third temple in the future. The sons of Levi, whether priests or no priests are purified starting with their belief, going back 2000 years. Their sacrifices are made purified in Christ, through offerings of praise.
Jesus' FIRST coming was prophesied in scripture, after all. If we take the promised coming as ALWAYS representing the second coming, then that would mean that the first coming was never prophesied itself.
This incident is referred to as 'the day of the Lord's coming."
Do you disagree that 'the day of the Lord' and its variants always refers to end time prophecy?
So do you mean to say the entire Levite priesthood became Christians? We know that isn't true because they are still Jews today and being identified by the Y chromosome.
Yes, his first coming was identified in prophecy as well, but I'm not aware of it ever being called 'the day of the Lord.'
Also, as I said, it further identifies its timing by talking of the restoration of Judah [house of Judah=Jews] and Jerusalem. Are you saying that happened with the first ministry of Jesus? Seems to me Jerusalem was left in ruins and devoid of Jews in 70ad. And, the Jews themselves were scattered to the four winds, never to return home again until 1948. This further supports it as an end time prophecy.
Quote from: Molly on October 15, 2014, 10:35:57 PM
"Well, the prophecy states that the Lord is coming and will refine and purify according to fire, the sons of Levi"
Quote from: SethIt does not say that it is referring to 70AD or the second coming. That is what people infer. And, interpretations are fine, but there are other interpretations. I actually view the fire and soap to be symbolic as well as "the sons of Levi" symbolizing the priesthood itself as purified in Christ's body. But even if it references fleshy sons of Levi, this does not necessitate a third temple in the future. The sons of Levi, whether priests or no priests are purified starting with their belief, going back 2000 years. Their sacrifices are made purified in Christ, through offerings of praise.
Jesus' FIRST coming was prophesied in scripture, after all. If we take the promised coming as ALWAYS representing the second coming, then that would mean that the first coming was never prophesied itself.
This incident is referred to as 'the day of the Lord's coming."
Do you disagree that 'the day of the Lord' and its variants always refers to end time prophecy?
So do you mean to say the entire Levite priesthood became Christians? We know that isn't true because they are still Jews today and being identified by the Y chromosome.
Yes, his first coming was identified in prophecy as well, but I'm not aware of it ever being called 'the day of the Lord.'
Also, as I said, it further identifies its timing by talking of the restoration of Judah [house of Judah=Jews] and Jerusalem. Are you saying that happened with the first ministry of Jesus? Seems to me Jerusalem was left in ruins and devoid of Jews in 70ad. And, the Jews themselves were scattered to the four winds, never to return home again until 1948. This further supports it as an end time prophecy.
What I'm saying is that there was a prophesied judgment upon Israel which was prophesied in all the books of the prophets. Amos in particular prophesies a coming fire by which Israel would be destroyed. But God always saves a remnant of his people and those people were grafted onto Christ at Pentecost. After that the tent of David would be built up through Jesus Christ with Gentiles and Jewish believers.
As Amos said
in that day (yom) God would restore David's tent. James applies that to Gentiles. And a remnant of Jews. This is not talking about 70 A.D. This is talking about when Jesus declared that they were not to seed of Abraham and he himself is the only seed. They were blinded and cut off of the truth. Only the Jews who God foreknew would be saved and grafted onto the tree at Pentecost.
Just because Malachi 3 says that a day of the Lord coming does not mean that automatically means the second coming. The prophets prophesied of the day that the Lord would come and restore David's tent.
Now from what I see regarding the remnant, Jesus Christ himself was the single seed of Abraham meaning no other seeds. That meant that when he declared that they were not the seed of Abraham he himself was the only seed of all Israel. When Israel was judged in Babylon for 70 years some were killed and the others were sent into captivity. After that a remnant was brought back and grafted on.
In other words everybody was cut off and only some were brought back. Paul, Peter, James, John and priests who had converted represent the remnant who is grafted into the tree via Pentecost. And they themselves went about preaching the gospel and grafting the Gentiles on to Israel.
This means that the Malachi prophecy is being fulfilled as the sons of Levi are cleansed through belief in Jesus Christ. This continual day is still occurring. What you are assuming is that ALL the sons of Levi must be purified at once for that scripture to be fulfilled. But what we see in a Romans 11 is that God did not cast off Israel WHO HE FOREKNEW. Israel was saved
according to a remnant. The portion of the sons of Levi purified are those who were of the foreknown remnant. The very word "remnant" suggests that a judgment has occurred.
The others became the seed of Ishmael through Hagar (Galatians 4).
Oh, Amos 9, I love that passage:
Israel Will Be Restored
11
"On that day I will raise up
The tabernacle of David, which has fallen down,
And repair its damages;
I will raise up its ruins,
And rebuild it as in the days of old;
12
That they may possess the remnant of Edom,
And all the Gentiles who are called by My name,"
Says the Lord who does this thing.
13
"Behold, the days are coming," says the Lord,
"When the plowman shall overtake the reaper,
And the treader of grapes him who sows seed;
The mountains shall drip with sweet wine,
And all the hills shall flow with it.
14
I will bring back the captives of My people Israel;
They shall build the waste cities and inhabit them;
They shall plant vineyards and drink wine from them;
They shall also make gardens and eat fruit from them.
15
I will plant them in their land,
And no longer shall they be pulled up
From the land I have given them,"
Says the Lord your God.
--Amos 9
I believe this is another end times prophecy. What does he mean that he will raise up the Tabernacle of David. What was the tabernacle of David? Wasn't it the three sided tent which allowed everyone to look directly inside and see the ark of the covenant? The Most Holy Place was made manifest to all.
"tabernacle"
H5521
סכּה
sûkkâh
sook-kaw'
Feminine of H5520; a hut or lair: - booth, cottage, covert, pavilion, tabernacle, tent.
The tent refers here to the feast of booths [Tabernacles] and also, we see both the Old and New Testament using the word 'tent' for the fragile, temporary, and corruptible human body.
1 For we know that if the tent which is our earthly home is destroyed (dissolved), we have from God a building, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
2 Here indeed, in this [present abode, body], we sigh and groan inwardly, because we yearn to be clothed over [we yearn to put on our celestial body like a garment, to be fitted out] with our heavenly dwelling,
--2 Cor 5
And I heard a loud voice from heaven saying, "Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people. God Himself will be with them and be their God.
--Revelation 21
Let me suggest that this body, tent, we live in will be raised up as the tabernacle of David,-- our glorified bodies radiating God for all to see.
51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed— 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
--1 Cor 15
2And He was transfigured before them; and His face shone like the sun, and His garments became as white as light.
--Mat 17
Quote from: Molly on October 16, 2014, 04:25:29 AM
Oh, Amos 9, I love that passage:
Israel Will Be Restored
11
"On that day I will raise up
The tabernacle of David, which has fallen down,
And repair its damages;
I will raise up its ruins,
And rebuild it as in the days of old;
12
That they may possess the remnant of Edom,
And all the Gentiles who are called by My name,"
Says the Lord who does this thing.
13
"Behold, the days are coming," says the Lord,
"When the plowman shall overtake the reaper,
And the treader of grapes him who sows seed;
The mountains shall drip with sweet wine,
And all the hills shall flow with it.
14
I will bring back the captives of My people Israel;
They shall build the waste cities and inhabit them;
They shall plant vineyards and drink wine from them;
They shall also make gardens and eat fruit from them.
15
I will plant them in their land,
And no longer shall they be pulled up
From the land I have given them,"
Says the Lord your God.
--Amos 9
I believe this is another end times prophecy. What does he mean that he will raise up the Tabernacle of David. What was the tabernacle of David? Wasn't it the three sided tent which allowed everyone to look directly inside and see the ark of the covenant?
"tabernacle"
H5521
סכּה
sûkkâh
sook-kaw'
Feminine of H5520; a hut or lair: - booth, cottage, covert, pavilion, tabernacle, tent.
The tent refers here to the feast of booths [Tabernacles] and also, we see both the Old and New Testament using the word 'tent' for the fragile, temporary, and corruptible human body.
1 For we know that if the tent which is our earthly home is destroyed (dissolved), we have from God a building, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
2 Here indeed, in this [present abode, body], we sigh and groan inwardly, because we yearn to be clothed over [we yearn to put on our celestial body like a garment, to be fitted out] with our heavenly dwelling,
--2 Cor 5
And I heard a loud voice from heaven saying, "Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people. God Himself will be with them and be their God.
--Revelation 21
Let me suggest that this body, tent, we live in will be raised up as the tent of David,-- our glorified bodies radiating God for all to see.
51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed— 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
--1 Cor 15
James confirms Peter's Acts 15 statements that the Gentiles have been chosen by God to recieve the Sirit and become his people by referring to Amos. God prophecied a coming judgment upon Israel so that a remnant of men could seek The Lord, and also the Gentiles. The very term "remnant" means that a judgment has happened, and there is a remnant which has not been rejected. Paul refers to himself as a member of the remnant in Romans 11:1-2. This is well before 70AD.
The remnant rebuilds the tent of David through the foolishness of preaching, and adds Gentiles to Israel through that grafting. I appreciate the view of the body as a tent in other scriptures, but I don't see it as James point in Acts 15.
After all, if the body is a tent, then I would suggest that the body of Christ is the tent of David.
Quote from: SethJames confirms Peter's Acts 15 statements that the Gentiles have been chosen by God to recieve the Sirit and become his people by referring to Amos. God prophecied a coming judgment upon Israel so that a remnant of men could seek The Lord, and also the Gentiles. The very term "remnant" means that a judgment has happened, and there is a remnant which has not been rejected. Paul refers to himself as a member of the remnant in Romans 11:1-2. This is well before 70AD.
The remnant rebuilds the tent of David through the foolishness of preaching, and adds Gentiles to Israel through that grafting. I appreciate the view of the body as a tent in other scriptures, but I don't see it as James point in Acts 15.
After all, if the body is a tent, then I would suggest that the body of Christ is the tent of David.
I'm having trouble understanding what you are saying. If you can, what is James confirmation? What statements of Peter are being confirmed by James? What remnant are you referring to and scripture?
The remnant is not rebuilding the tent of David, God is. We have the body of Christ now. But, we do not yet have glorified bodies. Do you believe we will one day have glorified bodies? And, if so, is that an end times prophecy? What we have now is only a down payment on what we will inherit when the seventh seal is open. Do you agree?
Do you also agree that the Jews are the cultivated olive tree and the gentiles are the uncultivated tree as a starting point? Both are olive trees--one is cultivated, one is wild.
I explained all this stuff earlier. :HeartThrob:
But regarding your questions about the olive tree. I believe that Israel the HOUSE is the olive tree, and that tree contains a remnant of natural branches (Jews according to the flesh), and the rest are wild branches grafted in after a whole lot of natural branches were cut off. To me, that is Israel, a single tree.
Yes, and the natural branches that were cut off will eventually be grafted in again, as all Israel will be saved. Then, after that all who ever lived will be grafted in to the one tree, the tree of life, and God will be All in All.
Awesome.
Quote from: eaglesway on October 16, 2014, 07:32:33 AM
Yes, and the natural branches that were cut off will eventually be grafted in again, as all Israel will be saved. Then, after that all who ever lived will be grafted in to the one tree, the tree of life, and God will be All in All.
Awesome.
:thumbsup:
"He is able to graft them in again" (Romans 11:23)
Although, I believe that all Israel shall be saved "after the fullness of the Gentiles is come in" (Romans 11:25), which fulfills everything Christ said in his ministry, for the first shall be last and the last shall be first.
Quote from: Seth on October 16, 2014, 06:57:20 AM
I explained all this stuff earlier. :HeartThrob:
But regarding your questions about the olive tree. I believe that Israel the HOUSE is the olive tree, and that tree contains a remnant of natural branches (Jews according to the flesh), and the rest are wild branches grafted in after a whole lot of natural branches were cut off. To me, that is Israel, a single tree.
So there are two trees, the cultivated olive tree and the wild olive tree? But both are olive trees. Jews are the cultivated olive tree into which the wild olive tree, the gentiles, are grafted.
And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
--Romans 11:17
Romans 11:24
For if you were cut from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and grafted, contrary to nature, into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, the natural branches, be grafted back into their own olive tree.
So what do you think it means that both Jews and Gentiles are the olive tree? What is the olive tree symbolic of? What is the difference between the wild olive tree and the cultivated olive tree?
DEAR MOLLY , THE HOLY SPIRIT IS THE OIL OF THE TWO OLIVE TREES AND WITNESSES [old and new testimonies Holy Spirit &Truth was in those all whom proclaimed LIFE IN THE SPIRIT of Christ /anointed ONE ]
the old testifies of the coming of Jesus Christ the Light of the world for all to see and the new is the fulfilling of the old and making them new
and as ONE
GOD for all NATIONS Israel & all other nations under ONE GOD through Jesus Christ the Messiah ..
Sorry to interfere with you both carry on ........... :flowerred:
Seth, when is this prophecy in Amos going to happen or has it already happened, in your opinion?
13
"Behold, the days are coming," says the Lord,
"When the plowman shall overtake the reaper,
And the treader of grapes him who sows seed;
The mountains shall drip with sweet wine,
And all the hills shall flow with it.
14
I will bring back the captives of My people Israel;
They shall build the waste cities and inhabit them;
They shall plant vineyards and drink wine from them;
They shall also make gardens and eat fruit from them.
15
I will plant them in their land,
And no longer shall they be pulled up
From the land I have given them,"
Says the Lord your God.
--Amos 9
Quote from: rosered on October 16, 2014, 04:07:36 PM
DEAR MOLLY , THE HOLY SPIRIT IS THE OIL OF THE TWO OLIVE TREES AND WITNESSES [old and new testimonies Holy Spirit &Truth was in those all whom proclaimed LIFE IN THE SPIRIT of Christ /anointed ONE ]
the old testifies of the coming of Jesus Christ the Light of the world for all to see and the new is the fulfilling of the old and making them new
and as ONE
GOD for all NATIONS Israel & all other nations under ONE GOD through Jesus Christ the Messiah ..
Sorry to interfere with you both carry on ........... :flowerred:
Hi Rose,
Does the wild olive tree have the oil? I'm wondering if maybe only the cultivated tree has the oil. What makes it cultivated? The Father prunes it and shapes it. Whereas the wild olive tree is on its own? But the wild olive tree is the same tree, an olive tree.
Does only the cultivated tree have the holy root? And, the wild olive tree is Lo-ammi? Thus, the Jews as branches were broken off for us to be grafted in, and drink of the holy root, but they can be re-grafted in easily at the end of the age, and they will be.
16If the first piece of dough is holy, the lump is also; and if the root is holy, the branches are too.--Romans 11
2"Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit, He prunes it so that it may bear more fruit.
--John 15
This means Jesus was always the root of Israel.
I am the Root and the Offspring of David--Rev 22:16
That was my post you answered above. I enjoyed your answer but it was a little over my head. :winkgrin: :friendstu:
Quote from: Seth on October 16, 2014, 07:33:22 AM
Quote from: eaglesway on October 16, 2014, 07:32:33 AM
Yes, and the natural branches that were cut off will eventually be grafted in again, as all Israel will be saved. Then, after that all who ever lived will be grafted in to the one tree, the tree of life, and God will be All in All.
Awesome.
:thumbsup:
"He is able to graft them in again" (Romans 11:23)
Although, I believe that all Israel shall be saved "after the fullness of the Gentiles is come in" (Romans 11:25), which fulfills everything Christ said in his ministry, for the first shall be last and the last shall be first.
The "fulness of the Gentiles", to me, is the full compliment appointed to salvation in this age, at the end of which, or shortly after, the "epiphanea" and "parousia" of Messiah, all Israel shall be saved.
The way I see it, Paull uses the olive tree as a type of Israel in Romans, the cultivated tree having been planted in the law and the prophets for an age. The wild olive tree, the gentiles- being grafted into that heritage- the covenants and the promises, the oracles and the kingdom of Messiah, become a part of the nation/kingdom of priests.
The wild grafted in branches can be cut-off for arrogance- the original "cut-off" branches can be grafted back in by repentance and faith.
The cultivated olive tree will abide forever, until ALL are grafted in.
IMO, The "two olive trees" are a different type(prophetic code word), representing the two witnesses who stand by the Lord of the whole earth(who they are is debatable among us I am sure, but in Zechariah's day it was Joshua and Zerrubabel).
These two types are not addressing the same thing. They are two different issues, imo.
Quote from: eaglesway on October 16, 2014, 05:53:18 PM
The way I see it, Paull uses the olive tree as a type of Israel in Romans, the cultivated tree having been planted in the law and the prophets for an age. The wild olive tree, the gentiles- being grafted into that heritage- the covenants and the promises, the oracles and the kingdom of Messiah, become a part of the nation/kingdom of priests.
The wild grafted in branches can be cut-off for arrogance- the original "cut-off" branches can be grafted back in by repentance and faith.
The cultivated olive tree will abide forever, until ALL are grafted in.
IMO, The "two olive trees" are a different type(prophetic code word), representing the two witnesses who stand by the Lord of the whole earth(who they are is debatable among us I am sure, but in Zechariah's day it was Joshua and Zerrubabel).
These two types are not addressing the same thing. They are two different issues, imo.
Yes the symbolism is amazing bro John and at times hard to grasp it :thumbsup:
Zerubbabel is: A stranger at Babylon, dispersion of confusion.
Hebrew the meaning of the name Joshua is: Jehovah is generous. Jehovah saves. In the Old Testament, Joshua was chosen to succeed Moses as leader of the Israelites for their journey to the Promised Land.
http://www.abarim-publications.com/Meaning/Zerubbabel.html#.VD_g3fldVeU (http://www.abarim-publications.com/Meaning/Zerubbabel.html#.VD_g3fldVeU)
seeing it as sown in corruption and raised up incorruptible in Jesus Christ He is the ONE , HOLY ONE !
Quote from: Molly on October 16, 2014, 03:51:43 PM
Quote from: Seth on October 16, 2014, 06:57:20 AM
I explained all this stuff earlier. :HeartThrob:
But regarding your questions about the olive tree. I believe that Israel the HOUSE is the olive tree, and that tree contains a remnant of natural branches (Jews according to the flesh), and the rest are wild branches grafted in after a whole lot of natural branches were cut off. To me, that is Israel, a single tree.
So there are two trees, the cultivated olive tree and the wild olive tree? But both are olive trees. Jews are the cultivated olive tree into which the wild olive tree, the gentiles, are grafted.
And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
--Romans 11:17
Romans 11:24
For if you were cut from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and grafted, contrary to nature, into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, the natural branches, be grafted back into their own olive tree.
So what do you think it means that both Jews and Gentiles are the olive tree? What is the olive tree symbolic of? What is the difference between the wild olive tree and the cultivated olive tree?
From what I have read about olive tree cultivation, the ordinary way to graft an olive tree is to actually take a good branch and graft it onto a wild tree in order for the wild tree to produce good fruit. However, in Romans 11 God reverses the process. He says that the wild branches are grafted onto a good tree. I think here is the reasoning Paul does this:
Romans 11
16 If the first piece of dough is holy, the lump is also; and if the root is holy, the branches are too. 17 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree, 18 do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you. 19 You will say then, "Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in." 20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear;
Because on that tree, the root is holy. On the wild tree, not so much. The natural branches were broken off for unbelief, and due to their unbelief they produced no fruit in accordance with repentance:
Matthew 3
7But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come? 8Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance:
9And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.
10And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. That judgment (the fire being figurative) is about being cut off. As individual trees, those Pharisees and Sadducees best to be producing fruit (in accordance with their baptism of repentance) because trees that
do not are cut down and thrown into the "fire" (meaning cut off). So when Paul uses the image of grafting, he is showing that the gentiles once came from a bad root, a root by which their fruit was not as good as the cultivated tree can produce.
So when the natural branches were cut off of the cultivated tree for lacking good fruit, the wild branches were cut off of the unholy root and grafted onto a holy root of Israel to produce better fruit. In Romans 11 they are compared to branches, even if in another parable each individual is compared to a tree. Different uses of images to communicate different things.
There is only ONE good olive tree in the Romans 11 parable.
Quote from: Molly on October 16, 2014, 04:10:12 PM
Seth, when is this prophecy in Amos going to happen or has it already happened, in your opinion?
13
"Behold, the days are coming," says the Lord,
"When the plowman shall overtake the reaper,
And the treader of grapes him who sows seed;
The mountains shall drip with sweet wine,
And all the hills shall flow with it.
14
I will bring back the captives of My people Israel;
They shall build the waste cities and inhabit them;
They shall plant vineyards and drink wine from them;
They shall also make gardens and eat fruit from them.
15
I will plant them in their land,
And no longer shall they be pulled up
From the land I have given them,"
Says the Lord your God.
--Amos 9
In order to answer that question I have to point out that Amos along with all the other prophets, prophesied a Judgment upon ISRAEL, and then prophecied that Israel would be restored. To understand the process of restoration I believe we need to understand the concept of
The Remnant of Israel. I will need to quote larger passages to see the context so I can talk about how I see it, staring with Romans 11 pre-70AD judgment of Israel.
Romans 11
1 I say then, God has not rejected His people, has He? May it never be! For I too am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God has not rejected His people
whom He foreknew (that's important). Or do you not know what the Scripture says in the passage about Elijah, how he pleads with God
against Israel? 3 "Lord, they have killed Your prophets, they have torn down Your altars,
and I alone am left, and they are seeking my life." 4 But what is the divine response to him?
"I have kept for Myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal." 5 In the same way then, there has also come to be at
the present time a remnant according to God's gracious choice. 6 But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace.
7 What then? What Israel is seeking, it has not obtained,
but those who were chosen obtained it, and the rest were hardened;
Israel has been judged according to Paul here, and that is why at "the present time there is a remnant." There's no such thing as a remnant except that there is something to be a remainder of. That is why God has not rejected the people of Israel .... THAT HE FOREKNEW. That is when Paul immediately refers to
himself, and
Elijah and the
7,000 knees that did not bow to Ba'al. Those are examples of
remnants. Not ALL Israel, but a REMNANT of Israel for "
the present time." Yes, all Israel shall be saved, but "at the present time" there is only a remnant of Israel so that the Gentiles may come in.
Romans 8
28And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them
who are the called according to his purpose. 29For whom
he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
This is talking about the Sons of God, those who are grafted into "Israel is my first born son, and out of Egypt I called my son." (Hosea 11:1). So, getting to Amos 9:
Amos 9
8 "Behold, the eyes of the Lord God are on the sinful kingdom,
And I will destroy it from the face of the earth;
Nevertheless, I will not totally destroy the house of Jacob,"Declares the Lord.
9 "For behold, I am commanding,
And I will shake the house of Israel among all nationsAs grain is shaken in a sieve,
But not a kernel will fall to the ground.
10 "All the sinners of My people will die by the sword,
Those who say, 'The calamity will not overtake or confront us.'
11 "In that day I will raise up the fallen booth of David,And wall up its breaches;
I will also raise up its ruins
And rebuild it as in the days of old;
12 That they may possess the remnant of Edom
And all the nations who are called by My name,"Declares the Lord who does this.
When God says that he will shake Israel with the nations in a sieve, it means he is going to
put them together, and all the dross is going to pour through the sieve, but not one kernel (the foreknown remnant and the chosen Gentiles) will be lost. What's left in the sieve is God's chosen people. This prophecy, about a judgment upon Israel (just like how Paul interpreted Hosea), James uses to validate Peter's statements about the Jews receiving the Holy Spirit and becoming a people of God. I know it's alot of text, but I believe it is important to show it, so the context will come through:
Acts 15
6 The apostles and the elders came together to ook into this matter (circumcision for the Gentiles). 7 After there had been much debate, Peter stood up and said to them, "Brethren, you know that in the early days God made a choice among you,
that by my mouth the Gentiles would hear the word of the gospel and believe. 8 And God, who knows the heart, testified to them
giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He also did to us; 9
and He made no distinction between us and them, cleansing their hearts by faith. 10 Now therefore why do you put God to the test by placing upon the neck of the disciples a yoke which neither our fathers nor we have been able to bear? 11 But we believe that we are saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, in the same way as they also are."
12 All the people kept silent, and they were listening to Barnabas and Paul as they were relating what signs and wonders God had done through them among the Gentiles. 13 After they had stopped speaking, James answered, saying, "Brethren, listen to me. 14 Simeon has related how God first concerned Himself about
taking from among the Gentiles a people for His name. 15
With this the words of the Prophets agree, just as it is written, (in Amos 9)16 'After these things I will return,
And I will rebuild the tabernacle of David which has fallen,
And I will rebuild its ruins,
And I will restore it,
17 So that the remnant of man may seek the Lord,
And all the Gentiles who are called by My name,'
18 Says the Lord, who makes these things known from long ago.According to James, Amos is being applied to what Peter said and they all agree. Amos 9 is prophesying about a time when the Gentiles would receive the Spirit and be called a people for his name, and MAKE NO DISTINCTION between Jew and Gentile believers (they are all Jews according to the Spirit).
What does this have to do with returning to the land? Well, as Amos said, that God would not destroy ALL of Israel, and there is a remnant for a present time. The REMNANT, the leftovers, would enter into the land.
Hebrews 4
4 Therefore, let us fear if,
while a promise remains of entering His rest, any one of you may seem to have come short of it. 2 For indeed we have had good news preached to us, just as they also; but the word they heard did not profit them, because it was not united by faith in those who heard.
That is what Amos has to do with Gentiles receiving the Holy Spirit. The moment that the "natural branches" became counted for the seed of Ishmael and Hagar (Galatians 4),
they had already been cast out of the land. That is why Revelation says that Christ was crucified in SODOM AND EGYPT. When the REMNANT returned and were grafted onto the tree so that the Gentiles could recieve the same, they returned because God counts his SON AS ISRAEL, and he counts believers as the seed.
That is why, in Galatians 4, Paul makes special note that the Law was given to Israel IN EGYPT. It means
that the Jews who are under the Law are standing on Egyptian soil where they first received the Law, no matter where they think they are standing physically. But, the true Jerusalem is ABOVE, and she is still waiting for the natural branches to enter into her. So my answer is that the quoted Amos passage is fulfilled in Christ and has been fulfilled in Christ since day one.
This is why the prophecies say that Israel shall be
"wiped off the face of the earth (Hb - adamos - land)". That's because Christ's kingdom IS NOT OF THIS WORLD. The events of 1948, to me, represent nothing more than Israel of the flesh leaving Sodom and Egypt and entering into more Sodom and Egypt where Christ was crucified. Those who believe in Jesus Christ are placed in heavenly places, because that is where Israel is today, with Christ, the firstborn son who IS Israel. Israel from below is wiped from face of the earth. There is only an Israel from above which the remnant and the Gentiles may enter into, and eventually everyone else will too.