Should We Support the building of the Third Temple in Jerusalem?

[WhiteWings]

The question is,  is Israel the people or the land?
If everyone one with a single drop of Jewish/Israelian blood was removed from Jerusalem. would you still call it Jerusalem? 

In other words Israel without Israeli is stll the promised land Israel.

Or, is it a house? A family name which does not necessarily encompass physical descendants. Don't take this the wrong way, but think about a house as in the mafia. You can be part of that house without being blood relative if you are sworn in and counted as a member of the house.

My point is and was that Israel can be many things.  Land,  tribe,  spiritual,  group of believers,  a single person (jacob) and likely some more.

[Seth]

The question is,  is Israel the people or the land?
If everyone one with a single drop of Jewish/Israelian blood was removed from Jerusalem. would you still call it Jerusalem? 

In other words Israel without Israeli is stll the promised land Israel.

Or, is it a house? A family name which does not necessarily encompass physical descendants. Don't take this the wrong way, but think about a house as in the mafia. You can be part of that house without being blood relative if you are sworn in and counted as a member of the house.

My point is and was that Israel can be many things.  Land,  tribe,  spiritual,  group of believers,  a single person (jacob) and likely some more.

I agree. Adding another aspect.

[marie glen]

"For you are the temple of the living God, according as God said, that I will be making My home and will be walking in them, and I will be their God, and they shall be My people." (2 Corinthians 6:16)

Many evangelical groups—with Bible prophecy as a motivation—heartily support Israel and the building of a third temple. Some even send considerable sums of money each year for charitable causes in the nation. Similar to some in the Jewish community, they believe supporting Israel will help speed end-time events.

I feel sorry for the Jews that they think they need a building to worship God just like church folks do, but that's their thing. And I think it's kind of a crazy idea that building a new Jewish temple is going to "help speed end-time events" because I'm pretty sure God has his own time table for his plan.

:thumbsup:

..."Go and measure the temple of God and the altar, and count the worshipers there."

2 But exclude the outer court; do not measure it, because it has been given to the Gentiles. They will trample on the holy city for 42 months. 3 And I will give power to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for 1,260 days, clothed in sackcloth.

Could be a way of pinpointing the timing because leap years are 30 days (extra month) longer.

I have thought that too :smile:

4 These are the two olive trees and the two lampstands that stand before the Lord of the earth. 5 If anyone tries to harm them, fire comes from their mouths and devours their enemies. This is how anyone who wants to harm them must die. 6 These men have power to shut up the sky so that it will not rain during the time they are prophesying; and they have power to turn the waters into blood and to strike the earth with every kind of plague as often as they want."


They have the powers of Enoch and Eliah.
Odly enough John also wanted to bring down fire.

I think of the two witnesses as being in Israel/Jerusalem...

and the temple, as spiritual, not our bodies, but all who LOVE and follow Jesus, collectively as the temple..(??)  :smile:

[jbertonbounds]

This thread is NOT about whether our bodies are temples, BUT
Since there is debate, the scripture says:
[1Co 6:19 ESV] "Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit within you, whom you have from God? You are not your own"
So in light of this scripture (and there are others), how can anyone say, "your body is not a temple."

[Seth]

Marie, I don't disagree about the collective as a temple, but I do believe our bodies are temples too. Jesus spoke about his body as a temple in John 2:21, and Paul said that we should not defile the temple by joining our bodies in fornication.

1 Cor 6
What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?

[WhiteWings]

I would like to hear that explained by people who believe that temple is their own body. Do they have worshippers inside of them? A court of gentiles?

New Jerusalem doesn't have a temple in the book of Revelation.

Revelation 21
22 I saw no temple in it, for the Lord God the Almighty and the Lamb are its temple.

Christ is the fulfillment of the prophets just like he said he was.

We are the temple and the temple is within us. The father was in Christ just as Christ was in Hs father.

Seth, by now you should know I don't fall for such tactics.
1] You are completely ignoring my question. Do you personally have worshippers inside of yourself? Do you personally have  court of Gentiles inside?

2] Revelation 21 is long after the Rev chapter with the gentiles.

3] No Temple remains to be seen. Look very close at New Jerusalem. It's scaled up version of the Temple.


Note: I keep getting the impression that many do not know what the 2 literal Temples were. The Temple is only that small building you see in drawings. The courts are not part of Temple. They are part of the Temple complex.

[Seth]

This thread is NOT about whether our bodies are temples, BUT
Since there is debate, the scripture says:
[1Co 6:19 ESV] "Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit within you, whom you have from God? You are not your own"
So in light of this scripture (and there are others), how can anyone say, "your body is not a temple."

We must be posting at the same time  :laughing7:

The reason I believe this conversation about our bodies as temples has to do with in what way we all read the prophecies differently, and how it factors into whether we should support a physical temple built in brick and mortar Jerusalem. I don't believe in having any active role in that myself. I think if the Jewish people believed in Christ and their bodies became the temple of God, they would hopefully realize that the shadow pointed to the fulfilled reality, and they don't have to fight Muslims just to build a shadow temple at the expense of men, women and children.

[Tom]

Right, I messed up. I forgot there's not a temple in the New Jerusalem, but I still believe we're the temple because that's what scripture says.

[Seth]

I would like to hear that explained by people who believe that temple is their own body. Do they have worshippers inside of them? A court of gentiles?

New Jerusalem doesn't have a temple in the book of Revelation.

Revelation 21
22 I saw no temple in it, for the Lord God the Almighty and the Lamb are its temple.

Christ is the fulfillment of the prophets just like he said he was.

We are the temple and the temple is within us. The father was in Christ just as Christ was in Hs father.

Seth, by now you should know I don't fall for such tactics.
1] You are completely ignoring my question. Do you personally have worshippers inside of yourself? Do you personally have  court of Gentiles inside?

2] Revelation 21 is long after the Rev chapter with the gentiles.

3] No Temple remains to be seen. Look very close at New Jerusalem. It's scaled up version of the Temple.


Note: I keep getting the impression that many do not know what the 2 literal Temples were. The Temple is only that small building you see in drawings. The courts are not part of Temple. They are part of the Temple complex.

Check your accusatory tone please. I am not using "tactics" Thank you  :friendstu:

As far as I know, I was responding to Tom, not you. And Marie asked the question about whether we have worshippers within us. What my response is to that, is that God is the temple, so yes, the temple has worshippers in it(him). But also we are the temple, but only because the temple is within us. There is a two aspect fulfillment: God (the temple) in us. Us (the temple) in God.

[Seth]

Right, I messed up. I forgot there's not temple in the New Jerusalem, but I still believe we're the temple because that's what scripture says.

Well, there actually is a temple. Just not a physical one. It says, there is no temple, because God is the temple. See what I mean? There's a temple, but not a temple, not a brick and mortar one. God is the temple, and we are the temple. Him in us, us in him.

[Tom]

Right, I messed up. I forgot there's not temple in the New Jerusalem, but I still believe we're the temple because that's what scripture says.

Well, there actually is a temple. Just not a physical one. It says, there is no temple, because God is the temple. See what I mean? There's a temple, but not a temple, not a brick and mortar one. God is the temple, and we are the temple. Him in us, us in him.

Well, it seems like Revelation 11:1,2 is talking about measuring a literal temple in "Old" Jerusalem.

"And a reed like a rod was given me, and one said, "Rouse, measure the temple of God and the altar and those worshiping in it. And the court outside of the temple cast outside, and you should not be measuring it, for it was given to the nations, and the holy city will they be treading forty-two months." (Revelation 11:1,2)

I'm getting a Revelation brain cramp. I think God is the temple in New Jerusalem. That's why there's no temple.

[WhiteWings]

Check your accusatory tone please. I am not using "tactics" Thank you

Sorry but that's how I see things when you views get challanged.

:friendstu:

We are not and you know that.

As far as I know, I was responding to Tom, not you

.
My apologies for posting in a public thread...
I'll just assume you can't or don't want too. I won't bother you with it anymore after competing this post.

And Marie asked the question about whether we have worshippers within us.

Check reply #159 to see who asked what.

What my response is to that, is that God is the temple, so yes, the temple has worshippers in it(him). But also we are the temple, but only because the temple is within us. There is a two aspect fulfillment: God (the temple) in us. Us (the temple) in God.

My response to that is that it doesn't answer the question.

But also we are the temple, but only because the temple is within us.

Any verse to support the red part?

[Seth]

Right, I messed up. I forgot there's not temple in the New Jerusalem, but I still believe we're the temple because that's what scripture says.

Well, there actually is a temple. Just not a physical one. It says, there is no temple, because God is the temple. See what I mean? There's a temple, but not a temple, not a brick and mortar one. God is the temple, and we are the temple. Him in us, us in him.

Well, it seems like Revelation 11:1,2 is talking about measuring a literal temple in "Old" Jerusalem.

"And a reed like a rod was given me, and one said, "Rouse, measure the temple of God and the altar and those worshiping in it. And the court outside of the temple cast outside, and you should not be measuring it, for it was given to the nations, and the holy city will they be treading forty-two months." (Revelation 11:1,2)

I'm getting a Revelation brain cramp. I think God is the temple in New Jerusalem. That's why there's no temple.

I agree. That's why I believe Israel does not need to build a third temple to fulfill the scriptures. Christ IS the fulfillment of the temple. He IS the temple. Israel should be seeking out Christ rather than fighting Mulsims.

[Seth]

Check your accusatory tone please. I am not using "tactics" Thank you

Sorry but that's how I see things when you views get challanged.

:friendstu:

We are not and you know that.

As far as I know, I was responding to Tom, not you

.
My apologies for posting in a public thread...
I'll just assume you can't or don't want too. I won't bother you with it anymore after competing this post.

And Marie asked the question about whether we have worshippers within us.

Check reply #159 to see who asked what.

What my response is to that, is that God is the temple, so yes, the temple has worshippers in it(him). But also we are the temple, but only because the temple is within us. There is a two aspect fulfillment: God (the temple) in us. Us (the temple) in God.

My response to that is that it doesn't answer the question.

But also we are the temple, but only because the temple is within us.

Any verse to support the red part?

I'll just answer the red part. God is the temple of New Jerusalem. That part was quoted already earlier. If God is in his people, that means the temple is in us, being as we are the temple. And also we are in the temple (God)  as worshippers..

Jesus said two things: he was in his father, and his father was within him.

[dajomaco]

White Wings
In past post you have made some insightful
observations on the types and shadows of the Wedding Ceremony.
What part would rebuilding the Third temple have in this ceremony.

[marie glen]

OK, I'm new to this thread at this point. I don't have it in me to read all the posts in this thread at this point, so this may be a repeat. That said:

The Modern nation of Israel is not necessarily Israel.
You can look at it however you choose, but consider this:
Back when Israel divided into two kingdoms, only two tribes split off - Judah and Benjamin.
They became the kingdom of Judah, and the other ten tribes became the kingdom of Israel.
Then later, both kingdoms were taken into captivity, Israel into Assyria, and Judah into Babylon.
After their captivities, Judah (the Judahites and Benjamites) went home to Palestine, BUT Israel (the other ten tribes) never went back.

hi! I've read up on the theory.. and so some think.. but by time Cyrus said "Let aLL Israel in all my kingdom, go home" Ninevah and Assyria were part of that kingdom..

Later, at the census of Nehemiah, when the city was being rebuilt all tribes were numbered

Anna at the temple when Jesus was circumcised was from the tribe of Asher..

We are, however, all believers grafted into Israel who has fallen away (Paul said) that the nations may be grafted in.
.

Israel dispersed. Where did they go?

dispersed -- twice.. [#1] to assyria - northern kingdom(Israel) and to Babylon - southern kingdom(Judah)

then [#2] after 70 a.d. into all the world.. or large part that is.. and then the vision (prophecy, Ezekiel) of the valley of bones being all Israel which was not (after 70a.d) but then due to the Balfour Declaration in 1917? 18? Israel was granted part of their homeland from the League of Nations.. Israel revived.. resurrected from valley of bones/not- to again a nation..

The important thing is that, under the new covenant, it is the believers who are the new nation of Israel.
The Vine and the Branches (both natural branches and grafted-in branches).
The Savior and his ecclesia.

..that I agree with! but for prophecy and drama's sake (God's truth drama proving good from evil, mankind's history) I believe there is the two.. hence the two groups in Rev chapter 7 "sealed on their forehead" to go along with I would presume, the seal on believer's hearts

Jesus said to Jerusalem (Israel) "
You-will-not-see-me" (Jesus) "again, until you (Israel) say 'blessed is He who comes in the name of the LORD'.."

Toward 'end' times.. more and more "Jews for Jesus" or 'Jewish' believers.. in Rev 7. Who is sealed out of the 12 tribes is listed. And a definite number given..
- then "after this" John says "I saw a great crowd beyond numbering out of every tribe and nations and peoples of the earth.."

So it is my belief that there is much "sealing of foreheads" (clarity?) during the pause which is REV 7:1 "the angels holding back the winds from the 4 corners that they harm no trees nor ppl".... (imo, the pausing of man's splitting of the atom as warfare.. in between 1945 and...? next limited? use) 1945 being told in Rev 13:13, as an office not a man; and in Rev 6:12-17 as a seal which the seals r described as what they are at begin and what they are at end and not even in order, but blended.. a lock on the vision.. 6th seal changed much of the fabric of life, dark that day where it occurred, especially.. "into caves and dens of the earth" (I remember bomb shelters)

    :smile: :Peace2:  [also cross ref for Israel/Jerusalem will not SEE Jesus again until they say "blessed is He who comes in the name of the LORD" - is (imo) verse Rev 12:17 who by then have the testimony of Jesus.. and Rev 16:14,15,16]

[marie glen]

Quote from: WhiteWings on Today at 05:09:58 PM

..."Go and measure the temple of God and the altar, and count the worshipers there."


  I find myself thinking, ..where? what or 'which' worshippers? are in the temple... at that time?.. :Chinscratch:
I would like to hear that explained by people who believe that temple is their own body. Do they have worshippers inside of them? A court of gentiles?

I have not looked into it, but perhaps they could be found in Rev. 2 and 3 :2c:

..and also rev 7:9? during a pause, i went into one post before this one..

[Tom]

Wow, Revelation always gets folks crazy! I think it's unnecessary for us believers of the nations to support the building of the third temple in Israel because we are the temple for us according to scripture, and they can build their own temple. I hear those Hasidic Jews have plenty of money in their diamond stashes. Let them finance it.

[Seth]

 Amen Tom

[Molly]

..."Go and measure the temple of God and the altar, and count the worshipers there."

  I find myself thinking, ..where? what or 'which' worshippers? are in the temple... at that time?.. :Chinscratch:

I would like to hear that explained by people who believe that temple is their own body. Do they have worshippers inside of them? A court of gentiles?

2 But exclude the outer court; do not measure it, because it has been given to the Gentiles. They will trample on the holy city for 42 months. 3 And I will give power to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for 1,260 days, clothed in sackcloth.

  :Chinscratch: 42 months is also 1,260 days..  :Chinscratch: :Chinscratch: i'm seeing like possibly two filmstrips.. negatives.. the 1,260 days sitting atop/within the 1,290 days written by Daniel? (12;11,12)

Could be a way of pinpointing the timing because leap years are 30 days (extra month) longer.

4 These are the two olive trees and the two lampstands that stand before the Lord of the earth. 5 If anyone tries to harm them, fire comes from their mouths and devours their enemies. This is how anyone who wants to harm them must die. 6 These men have power to shut up the sky so that it will not rain during the time they are prophesying; and they have power to turn the waters into blood and to strike the earth with every kind of plague as often as they want."

I'm wondering, if the two, do indeed coincide -  the 1,260 of Rev 10 and the 1,290 of Dan 12 - when they are killed.. will be 30 days before the abomination which desolates is 'set-up'... (Daniel 12:12(11) - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Daniel+12%3A11-12&version=NKJV

They have the powers of Enoch and Eliah.
Odly enough John also wanted to bring down fire.

Regarding the question: "I would like to hear that explained by people who believe that temple is their own body. Do they have worshippers inside of them? A court of gentiles?" I think some may disagree, but I don't think we believers of the nations are the New Jerusalem temple.

New Jerusalem doesn't have a temple in the book of Revelation.

Revelation 21
22 I saw no temple in it, for the Lord God the Almighty and the Lamb are its temple.

Christ is the fulfillment of the prophets just like he said he was.

Yes, but this is your literal friend speaking--

The courtyard of the Temple will be trodden underfoot 3.5 years by the Gentiles during the time of Jacob's trouble, also known as the great tribulation.

This is the Middle East we are speaking of--guess who the Gentiles are who are trodding the outer court .

[hint:it's not the church of God and it's not the Jews].

So there will be a third Temple built.


1Then there was given me a measuring rod like a staff; and someone said, "Get up and measure the temple of God and the altar, and those who worship in it. 2"Leave out the court which is outside the temple and do not measure it, for it has been given to the nations; and they will tread under foot the holy city for forty-two months...

--Rev 11



Ezekiel 40:3
He took me there, and I saw a man whose appearance was like bronze; he was standing in the gateway with a linen cord and a measuring rod in his hand.

[marie glen]

5 But while the bridegroom was delayed,
--Mat 25

..seems to take a long time..

..the temple and outer court.. Jerusalem of course is being trampled by gentiles (even now) what with a Mosque sitting above the temple mount.. and also the gentiles/the nations put their own slant on things.. often trampling Israel but something more specific or even more so, of course, during latter 1260 days..?

But the temple in this case I think of as an analogy.. whose temple ye are.. all believers collectively.. the church/the temple.. (imo) and also as an analogy of Jerusalem, holy to YHWH. Did Jesus say the abomination which desolates, will be set-up in the temple..? or where it ought not? (In Jerusalem? In churches?)...? ("when you see the abomination which desolates set up in the holy place" Jerusalem itself possibly(imo) .."where it ought not"

- "I will keep you from the hour of temptation which will try all men" .."written to the angel of the church of Philadelphia" (true "brotherly love", the Greek, as opposed to beating other members of the household?? a particular temptation during final days?) OOPs! this is noT toward anyone here!! just a general observation for a long time now..

"set up" Daniel 12:11,12 - “And from the time that the daily sacrifice is taken away, and the abomination of desolation is set up, there shall be 1,290 days. 12 Blessed is he who waits, and comes to the 1,335 days.

...gentiles trample courtyard (outer) 1,260 days.. 30 days after the 2 witnesses R killed in Israel where they prophesy? the Abomination of Desolation (AoD) is (first?) set-up? that is, first time its set up, meaning to me, the 666 apparatus is set up first in Israel? considered by God a holy place.. reserved. "Measure the temple" I believe is simply Israel/Jerusalem, but gentile believers are grafted in!

[Seth]

Yes, but this is your literal friend speaking--

:friendstu:

I have a bit of a different take on what is literal. I see the old temple as a shadow, a metaphor unto itself, of the reality which is Christ. I believe when the reality comes, we don't need to build up the shadows. So, if it is a matter of the OP "should we support the building of the third temple in Jerusalem?" My answer is "no" because why would I need to support it? God is the temple. New Jerusalem has come and will be coming until all is completed. Why do I need to focus my efforts on lending support to a political cause that could destroy millions of lives (potentially, if Israel destroys the Dome of the Rock), for something that is nothing more than a shadow of Christ? It makes no sense to me.

I understand there are many different ways of viewing prophecy fulfillment. But, as far as me supporting the up-building of a shadow, when the reality is come in Christ, even at the cost of so much suffering, no thanks for me. I believe Christian leaders should support a peace treaty and let God deal with everything.

Peacemakers are blessed, not cursed by God. Warmakers are not blessed. Christians have nothing to fear from a God who was in Christ dying for them on the cross, and who says there is no condemnation for those who walk by the Spirit. I have no part in making a physical struggle between Jews and Arabs all the more worse based on an interpretation of prophecies. I'd rather point to the reality. "Hey guys the temple is here! Believe in him and be saved!"

[Molly]

5 But while the bridegroom was delayed,
--Mat 25

..seems to take a long time..

..the temple and outer court.. Jerusalem of course is being trampled by gentiles (even now) what with a Mosque sitting above the temple mount.. and also the gentiles/the nations put their own slant on things.. often trampling Israel but something more specific or even more so, of course, during latter 1260 days..?

But the temple in this case I think of as an analogy.. whose temple ye are.. all believers collectively.. the church/the temple.. (imo) and also as an analogy of Jerusalem, holy to YHWH. Did Jesus say the abomination which desolates, will be set-up in the temple..? or where it ought not? (In Jerusalem? In churches?)...? ("when you see the abomination which desolates set up in the holy place" Jerusalem itself possibly(imo) .."where it ought not"

- "I will keep you from the hour of temptation which will try all men" .."written to the angel of the church of Philadelphia" (true "brotherly love", the Greek, as opposed to beating other members of the household?? a particular temptation during final days?)

Marie, it specifically says 'the court which outside the temple.  Seems pretty clear to me that there will be a third temple when we put all these verses together.


2"Leave out the court which is outside the temple and do not measure it, for it has been given to the nations; and they will tread under foot the holy city for forty-two months...

[Molly]

Yes, but this is your literal friend speaking--

:friendstu:

I have a bit of a different take on what is literal. I see the old temple as a shadow, a metaphor unto itself, of the reality which is Christ. I believe when the reality comes, we don't need to build up the shadows. So, if it is a matter of the OP "should we support the building of the third temple in Jerusalem?" My answer is "no" because why would I need to support it? God is the temple. New Jerusalem has come and will be coming until all is completed. Why do I need to focus my efforts on lending support to a political cause that could destroy millions of lives (potentially, if Israel destroys the Dome of the Rock), for something that is nothing more than a shadow of Christ? It makes no sense to me.

I understand there are many different ways of viewing prophecy fulfillment. But, as far as me supporting the up-building of a shadow, when the reality is come in Christ, even at the cost of so much suffering, no thanks for me. I believe Christian leaders should support a peace treaty and let God deal with everything.

Peacemakers are blessed, not cursed by God. Warmakers are not blessed. Christians have nothing to fear from a God who was in Christ dying for them on the cross, and who says there is no condemnation for those who walk by the Spirit. I have no part in making a physical struggle between Jews and Arabs all the more worse based on an interpretation of prophecies. I'd rather point to the reality. "Hey guys the temple is here! Believe in him and be saved!"

Yes, of course it is the shadow.  But the Jews are still living under that shadow until the end of the Age when the Deliverer comes to save them and take away their sins per the New Covenant made with the house of Judah.


12"FOR I WILL BE MERCIFUL TO THEIR INIQUITIES, AND I WILL REMEMBER THEIR SINS NO MORE." 13When He said, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear.

--Hebrews 8


Jeremiah 50:20
In those days, at that time," declares the LORD, "search will be made for Israel's guilt, but there will be none, and for the sins of Judah, but none will be found, for I will forgive the remnant I spare.

[Seth]

We both agree they are living under the shadow, but the question is, should we support the building of the third temple. I other words, should we support the shadows, and help build the shadows? If so, I find it striking that none of the Apostles preached to any Christian that they should. They didn't breathe a word about the temple other than how it represented heavenly things. So, putting aside ways to interpret the prophecies, I still see no reason to support the up-building of a shadow that could cost so much life and bring suffering, when I'd rather point to the real temple and seek after peace.