As the Beast is a a Satanic kingdom, as apposed to God's Kingdom, I contend that the Anti-Christ is not the Beast, but rather the false prophet.
John had this to say about the anti-christ:
1Jn_2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
1Jn_2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.
1Jn_4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.
2Jn_1:7 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.
Joh_1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.
Now this Lamb would be a ewe lamb, or a female lamb, as that is the lamb that is sacrificed for the sins of the common people, and it is a lamb that is sacrificed
In Lev. iv. the laws descend finally to the individual. If one of the common people sinned unwittingly (verses 27-32), he was to offer a female goat or a ewe lamb as a sin-offering. The offenses whichdemanded a sin-offering are detailed in Lev. v. 1-6. They are for the most part of a non-moral nature, such as contact with a dead body, with an unclean reptile, or with an unclean discharge from a human being; but two of them have more of a moral character. These latter are (1) cases where a man permits injustice by withholding information (ib. verse 1), and (2) cases of rash though ignorant swearing to that which turns out to be false (ib. verse 4). A noticeable feature of Lev. iv. and v. is that the expense of the sacrifice is graded according to the dignity or wealth of the offender. Thus in ch. iv. the offering may be a bullock, a he-goat, a she-goat, or a ewe lamb, while in ch. v. it may be a she-goat, a ewe lamb, a turtle-dove, a young pigeon, or the tenth part of an ephah of fine flour (comp. ib. verses 6, 7, 11). Reference: jewishencyclopedia.com
The lamb of Revelation is a male lamb, in apposition of course, to the true lamb, Jesus.
Rev 13:11 And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.
Rev_16:13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.
I can think of one religion (hmm,hmm ... Islam) that acknowledges Jesus as a Great Prophet, but denies He is the Son of God, and who themselves have a Prophet, Muhammad. Of course Islam speaks blasphemies by denying Jesus as the Christ.
And this is also of the False Prophet:
Rev 13:12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.
Rev 13:13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,
Rev 13:14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.
Any thoughts on these. Especially the part where the False Prophet commands everyone to make an image of the beast. From what little I know of Islam, is that they are very stringent on not worshipping idols, even drawing pictures of Muhammad is forbidden.
hi! :hiya:
I agree the beast (Rev 13:1-10) is not the anti-christ/individual and I'm always a bit surprised when it's not seen there are the two beasts in Rev chapter 13.. Imo, the verse 1-10 beast is a world governing beast/body.. many heads and horns/powers.. Especially the ten (horns, toes, kings, divisions) which rule 'one hour' with the beast, the final hour..
But I think the anti-Christ is 13:11-18, an office which carried out 13:13 (in 1945) same office, imo, will furnish the head of beast 1, finally giving breath/authority to it.. (this head, or beast having expired when it's founder / same office, did not sign on, after all..)
I think of the false prophet (teacher, teaching, which does include a prophecy of mankind once again looking to the stars) as one who "went before" (KJ) and prepared the way, both for world governing and for the harlot (greek-"pornos") or that is to say for western civilization/capitalism going "pornos", which (capitalism) will be devoured (finally) by the ten kings (socialism)..
[[ the false prophet and the world governing beast/body are the two thrown "alive"/active into the LOF at Christ's return. I do not believe these two are individuals but institutions of man active at the time of His return.. thrown into the LOF and to be no more..
Many years ago when I asked the Lord to reveal to me Bible prophecy as concerning our modern day, and the Book of Revelation, the (first) thing which immediately 'came back to me' was a question - "what are the strongest forces at work upon mankind today?" (Emphasis on "today".) And into my mind like a light turning on - man's theory of evolution (as to origins).. the false prophet, pornos, and the trend toward a world governance and peace, plenty and utopia attempted w/o God (who iS life).
The religion/belief in evolution as to origins declares mankind to be the higher power, i.e. "declaring himself to be God.." Also they believe Jesus lived but was only a man, not the Son come in the flesh..
The dream of world peace, I think of as the "dove" - and Islam as the "vulture" (Mt 24, black clad) and carries out the beheadings of Rev 20:4 - imo, the dove will compatriot (and, or harness, make use of) the vulture in order to "remove that which prevents".
:Peace2: :smile:
"what are the strongest forces at work upon mankind today?"
I would say its sin in the flesh, personally. I have come to believe that the false prophet and beast are indicative of the forces that work within us all.
Ecc 3:18 I said in my heart concerning the matter of the sons of man that God might cleanse them, so as to see that they themselves are beasts.
:thumbsup:
I am in agreement with marie glen about the false prophet being a religious system as well, and that the blasphemy of that system is the theory of evolution, as I had posted in Kingdom of the Beast. This definitely could be the case for the secular society, but could also coincide with Islam. As the Beast is a secular governmental system, the non-religious would have their "faith" in evolution, and at the same time, Islam would continue to worship the false prophet Muhammad. Maybe that is indicative of the two horns of the lamb.
IMO, the final Beast government would come out of Europe as something of a revived Roman empire, but this government will make a covenant with ten kings, who I propose will be a confederation of ten Islam nations. I currently see Germany as the strongest member of the European community, and wouldn't that be something if they were to come back so to speak. It would make the world marvel that the Beast who had a death wound was revived!
Just my thoughts...
I think Revelation is a great test. Who do we point at other than ourselves?
Good point Seth. There is no anti-christ personified. This myth is a left over of the catholic jesuit conspiracy of futurism to take the attention away from from the catholic church of the day being labelled as the anti-christ itself. Especially with the protestant eruption throughout europe. It is complete bunk and the beast is just our own carnal natures. Nothing more. Read this.
http://www.remnantbiblestudies.com/article15_rapture_pt1.html
:banana: :banana: :banana:
I agree that the revelation from one aspect reveals our own personal salvation, of the second Adam over the first Adam, through the power of Jesus Christ.
But if we contend that it is about our own salvation, would we be saying that we are Jesus Christ as well and by our own will, overcome sin and death?
Seth's Quote; "I think Revelation is a great test. Who do we point at other than ourselves?"
Maybe I'm missing your point friend.
But I believe there is a literal aspect as well, that will be played out in the theater of Earth.
Let those who have ears to hear hear what the Spirit is saying to the churches.
I am He that tries the reins and the hearts.
Behold, I am coming quickly.
Behold I am making all things new.
The Spirit and the Bride say, "Come". Let everyone who thirsts come, drink freely of the water of life.
In the introduction to the vision Jesus is walking among the Lampstands, and measuring them. I see ther a strong correlation to 1 corinthians 3:10-17
10 According to the grace of God which was given to me, like a wise master builder I laid a foundation, and another is building on it. But each man must be careful how he builds on it. 11 For no man can lay a foundation other than the one which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if any man builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, 13 each man's work will become evident; for the day will show it because it is to be revealed with fire, and the fire itself will test the quality of each man's work. 14 If any man's work which he has built on it remains, he will receive a reward. 15 If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.
16 Do you not know that you are a temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you? 17 If any man destroys(phtheirei-wither, ruin) the temple of God, God will destroy(phtheirei) him, for the temple of God is holy, and that is what you are.
Talk about a test :o)
Quote from: saintwalee on July 10, 2014, 05:09:14 AM
Seth's Quote; "I think Revelation is a great test. Who do we point at other than ourselves?"
Maybe I'm missing your point friend.
But I believe there is a literal aspect as well, that will be played out in the theater of Earth.
My own view on Revelation is that I doubt there is a literal aspect. For example, if I take Revelation 19, where the one who sits on the white horse strikes down all the earth with the sword in his mouth. Jesus already said that if anyone does not believe in him, he will not judge them, but his words will judge them.
I don't believe that Jesus will literally use a sword to kill people. I believe it's symbolic. In fact, if we are talking about a LITERAL beast, then we can't appeal to symbolism at all, because then, it's not literal anymore.
So the question becomes, what is it symbolic of? One common thread I always see is that nobody thinks it's themselves. It's always the Romans, or the Catholics, or the Protestants, or the Jews, or America, or Russia, and on and on. But one common thread among all the theories is this: it's always someone else.
I can't claim to have the answer, but one thing I do know is that God loves a good surprise. And what if we found out that the beast is within us?
A really good read on this subject can be found here:
- Who is the Beast? by L. Ray Smith (http://bible-truths.com/lake13.html)
- The Beast Within by L. Ray Smith (http://bible-truths.com/lake14.html)
:iagree:
In my post, the Kingdom of the Beast, that is what I presented, and some of the replies even quoted some pictures that man is a beast.
Even though I don't think many take Revelation literally, that there is an actual two edged sword coming out of Jesus' mouth, I do think that there will be a physical manifestation of the events on earth and that not the whole of revelation is the battle taking place within each individual.
I also agree with what you say about many always talk about the Beast and anti-Christ as someone else. I think that comes from all the hoopla about the whole rapture thing.
Thanks for the links, I will definitely check those out as well!
Yeah, it's a very mysterious book, and so I may be wrong, and maybe there is a guy somewhere or a government system that the beast represents, so I don't mean to say that other interpretations are wrong. I find them all interesting. But, yeah take a look at those articles, you might find some interesting stuff there.
man,though he be in honour[in the image of God],without understanding is like the beast.
my people perish through lack of knowledge[of the one true God]
when I was 17,and anointed of Christ one night/shortly after I first heard of the salvation of all men....
but rejected it [not hitler etc] a few weeks after that I was given a vision in the night.....a voice told me..
'get out of bed and go to the bathroom' and I did..then the voice said go to the mirror..I did...then the voice
said 'look into the mirror" and I did....then the voice siad 'look closer" and I did...I saw in the pupil
of my eye...a young wman running in a feild..as she ran she turned and looked behind her..as if something
was in pursuit of her....I said..'what is he running from?' and a great beast filled the mirror and growled.....
startled and shook me up bad.......only years later did I realize that He had anointed and tried to teach me
but I was way too carnal and as a beast that could not be taught of Him,at that time. ) years later,after
walking a really rough road...I found out about the salvation of all men..and was elated over it...so thankful
of it. no flippant rejection of it,then..
I was once given a vivid dream in which a great male baboon was chasing me up a dry river bed.
After waking, and meditating upon it, I realized that the Lord was showing me that I had not been walking in the spirit. The river that makes glad the city of God had dried up in me, and I was being spiritually dominated by my flesh, the beast in me, the carnal mind.
Great thread guys all have given some great insight and scriptures !
I noticed in Rev 12 Satan the deceiver, that old red dragon was given an adjective of describing '' accusing the brethren day night before God'' and being thrown down /cast down
now the head and tail in the old describes in Isaiah 9 ...14So the LORD cuts off head and tail from Israel, Both palm branch and bulrush in a single day.DAY /JESUS /CROSS ]
15The head is the elder and honorable man, And the prophet who teaches falsehood is the tail. 16For those who guide this people are leading them astray; And those who are guided by them are brought to confusion.... Babylon means confusion by mixing
I am seeing that the honor of men and wisdom of men and doctrines of men as [ beasts /carnal minds ] in the earth our mortal bodies and sea being the many nations tongues and languages where the woman sits [ woman being the Queen of heaven described in Jeremiah ,Jer 7:18 The children gather wood, and the fathers kindle the fire, and the women knead their dough, to make cakes to the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto other gods, that they may provoke me to anger noted the children gather the wood , for the wood , hay and stubble for the kindling fires the fathers start by opening their mouths
the firey little member the tongue that no man can tame that sets the course of hell [graves ] condemnation
The new covenant being set from the moment of the CROSS OF JESUS CHRIST , thus being the need for the new heavens and earth that Jesus Christ Himself rules and reigns , This is the NEW JERUSALEM Jerusalem = "set ye double peace" [ double Visions of and teaching of peace ]That comes down from heaven ...To Gods glory and honor and praise !
Rev 12
9And the great dragon was thrown down, the serpent of old who is called the devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him
.Rev 8:12 And the fourth angel sounded, and the third part of the sun was smitten, and the third part of the moon, and the third part of the stars; so as the third part of them was darkened, and the day shone not for a third part of it, and the night likewise.
lRev 12:4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.
I can see that Satans tail is LIES drawing the stars of heaven [ Abraham 's blessing His children being as plentiful and the stars of heaven and sands of the sea shore ,,, the stars had LIGHT in them [light of Christ , but become deceived by the lies of satans tail / false lies accusing
10Then I heard a loud voice in heaven, saying, "Now the salvation, and the power, and the kingdom of our God and the authority of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren has been thrown down, he who accuses them before our God day and night. 11"And they overcame him because of the blood of the Lamb and because of the word of their testimony, and they did not love their life even when faced with death....
This to me represents the baptism of Christ death that many also must undergo
as the death of HIS saints , holy ones chosen for this death and new LIFE here and now
Psalms 116
1I love the Lord, for he heard my voice;
he heard my cry for mercy.
2Because he turned his ear to me,
I will call on him as long as I live.
3The cords of death entangled me,
the anguish of the grave came over me;
I was overcome by distress and sorrow.
4Then I called on the name of the Lord:
"Lord, save me!"
5The Lord is gracious and righteous;
our God is full of compassion.
6The Lord protects the unwary;
when I was brought low, he saved me.
7Return to your rest, my soul,
for the Lord has been good to you.
8For you, Lord, have delivered me from death,
my eyes from tears,
my feet from stumbling,
9that I may walk before the Lord
in the land of the living.
10I trusted in the Lord when I said,
"I am greatly afflicted";
11in my alarm I said,
"Everyone is a liar."
12What shall I return to the Lord
for all his goodness to me?
13I will lift up the cup of salvation
and call on the name of the Lord.
14I will fulfill my vows to the Lord
in the presence of all his people.
15Precious in the sight of the Lord
is the death of his faithful servants.
16Truly I am your servant, Lord;
I serve you just as my mother did;
you have freed me from my chains.
17I will sacrifice a thank offering to you
and call on the name of the Lord.
18I will fulfill my vows to the Lord
in the presence of all his people,
19in the courts of the house of the Lord—
in your midst, Jerusalem.
Praise the Lord.
Now live for the Lord though Jesus Christ ! all things are new and being made perfect /complete by the LIGHT and knowledge of HIS WILL !
yep..EW..mine looked like a big ape too! on another forum Kingdomtalk..there was a brother on there,Lee,
who also stated,when I shared my dream/vision...the same..a great ape chained to him....that tried to harm
everyone who came near him..of which he would try and beat back into submission.
Loved your post,Rose.
Quote from: Seth on July 09, 2014, 07:02:19 PM
"what are the strongest forces at work upon mankind today?"
I would say its sin in the flesh, personally. I have come to believe that the false prophet and beast are indicative of the forces that work within us all.
Are you saying Bible prophecy is only within one's heart? and does not concern the world?
Quote from: saintwalee on July 10, 2014, 02:43:11 AM
I am in agreement with marie glen about the false prophet being a religious system as well, and that the blasphemy of that system is the theory of evolution, as I had posted in Kingdom of the Beast. This definitely could be the case for the secular society, but could also coincide with Islam. As the Beast is a secular governmental system, the non-religious would have their "faith" in evolution, and at the same time, Islam would continue to worship the false prophet Muhammad. Maybe that is indicative of the two horns of the lamb.
IMO, the final Beast government would come out of Europe as something of a revived Roman empire, but this government will make a covenant with ten kings, who I propose will be a confederation of ten Islam nations. I currently see Germany as the strongest member of the European community, and wouldn't that be something if they were to come back so to speak. It would make the world marvel that the Beast who had a death wound was revived!
Just my thoughts...
Very interesting! I've come to think of a 'revived' roman empire as an evolved roman empire, also Graeco/Roman,
..notice the bronze (claws) and iron (teeth/columns) of the ten horned beast of Dan 7:19,20 a cross reference of Rev 13:1.. And how Nebuchadnezzar's dream of the giant statue which God gave Daniel the interpretation of, almost all Bible prophecy scholars and buffs alike agree was a series of world empires -
..think gold, silver, bronze, like the olympic medals, then iron.. with bronze being Greek (Graeco) and Iron being Rome
How western civilization sprang from the iron and bronze (or brass as some interpret) with roman courts, senates, architecture, etc, and greek arts, drams, philosophy, etc..
Which I believe will also include Islam as confederate to carry out Rev 20:4d
Also the League of Nations, a world body/beast (beasts in Bible prophecy being governments and empires) expired when its original head did not sign on after all.. but mankind was convinced to rebuild when the fire of 13:13 occurred (13:14)
But also, I have to wonder how many Islamic persons, known and unknown, are in the nations.. I keep seeing the black burkas ("vultures") and who can say, in that day, if a man or woman is within?
So we are a bit in agreement but see it slightly different. :smile:
Quote from: Seth on July 10, 2014, 02:55:00 AM
I think Revelation is a great test. Who do we point at other than ourselves?
I agree with that.. but as also mankind and what we create and build.. on sand..
I believe the lesson we are (all) learning (good from evil/life from nonlife) is the same lesson and story in every life and also about mankind and all
history as a whole..
:smile:
Quote from: watchman1706 on July 10, 2014, 04:54:21 AM
Good point Seth. There is no anti-christ personified. This myth is a left over of the catholic jesuit conspiracy of futurism to take the attention away from from the catholic church of the day being labelled as the anti-christ itself. Especially with the protestant eruption throughout europe. It is complete bunk and the beast is just our own carnal natures. Nothing more. Read this.
http://www.remnantbiblestudies.com/article15_rapture_pt1.html
:banana: :banana: :banana:
I have to wonder why things written out plainly in all the letters of the New Testament would be rewritten as metaphor in the Book of Revelation..
..and then the warning not to take away from the book is written at the end..
...and at the beginning promises a blessing to those who read, hear and heed?
:Chinscratch:
Quote from: Seth on July 10, 2014, 08:31:34 PM
Quote from: saintwalee on July 10, 2014, 05:09:14 AM
Seth's Quote; "I think Revelation is a great test. Who do we point at other than ourselves?"
Maybe I'm missing your point friend.
But I believe there is a literal aspect as well, that will be played out in the theater of Earth.
My own view on Revelation is that I doubt there is a literal aspect. For example, if I take Revelation 19, where the one who sits on the white horse strikes down all the earth with the sword in his mouth. Jesus already said that if anyone does not believe in him, he will not judge them, but his words will judge them.
I don't believe that Jesus will literally use a sword to kill people. I believe it's symbolic. In fact, if we are talking about a LITERAL beast, then we can't appeal to symbolism at all, because then, it's not literal anymore.
So the question becomes, what is it symbolic of? One common thread I always see is that nobody thinks it's themselves. It's always the Romans, or the Catholics, or the Protestants, or the Jews, or America, or Russia, and on and on. But one common thread among all the theories is this: it's always someone else.
I can't claim to have the answer, but one thing I do know is that God loves a good surprise. And what if we found out that the beast is within us?
A really good read on this subject can be found here:
- Who is the Beast? by L. Ray Smith (http://bible-truths.com/lake13.html)
- The Beast Within by L. Ray Smith (http://bible-truths.com/lake14.html)
I believe symbols and metaphor are used in Bible prophecy, but strongly disbelieve that Bible prophecy itself is metaphor
...especially not as metaphor for what is clearly and plainly written in other books of the Bible..
Man's empires are built on sand.. Revelation, the unveiling (to me) seems most logical to be the culmination of history, the 'end' of the story so to speak.. The results and outcome which unveils and clearly shows to all, once and for all eternity, the truth that one cannot wander from God who is Life itself..
Surely to do so has concrete results in the heart, mind and psyche, but also in the world.. Was Israel's carrying away to Babylon metaphor only? Why now is Bible prophecy merely metaphor? (And for things already written!)
:Chinscratch: (puzzlement :)
Revelation 1:20 " the.. stars.. are angels.."
:smile: :hiya:
Quote from: marie glen on July 11, 2014, 08:00:52 PM
Quote from: Seth on July 09, 2014, 07:02:19 PM
"what are the strongest forces at work upon mankind today?"
I would say its sin in the flesh, personally. I have come to believe that the false prophet and beast are indicative of the forces that work within us all.
Are you saying Bible prophecy is only within one's heart? and does not concern the world?
I'm just saying what I believe is the strongest force at work in the world. It makes me think about Romans 7.
QuoteSurely to do so has concrete results in the heart, mind and psyche, but also in the world.. Was Israel's carrying away to Babylon metaphor only? Why now is Bible prophecy merely metaphor? (And for things already written!)
:Chinscratch: (puzzlement :)
I actually don't believe that Revelation is written in the typical form as the OT prophecies. Whereas many of the images are from the OT they aren't written the same way. Revelation concerns various images that John saw. What they could mean is anyone's guess according to how they read the book. The prophets level certain specific predictions about Israel, whereas I don't see that kind of thing as much in Revelation. It could very well be that the OT prophecies have been fulfilled outwardly, and revelation is bringing them into the internal realm, spiritually.
Quote from: Seth on July 11, 2014, 09:51:21 PM
QuoteSurely to do so has concrete results in the heart, mind and psyche, but also in the world.. Was Israel's carrying away to Babylon metaphor only? Why now is Bible prophecy merely metaphor? (And for things already written!)
:Chinscratch: (puzzlement :)
I actually don't believe that Revelation is written in the typical form as the OT prophecies. Whereas many of the images are from the OT they aren't written the same way. Revelation concerns various images that John saw. What they could mean is anyone's guess according to how they read the book. The prophets level certain specific predictions about Israel, whereas I don't see that kind of thing as much in Revelation. It could very well be that the OT prophecies have been fulfilled outwardly, and revelation is bringing them into the internal realm, spiritually.
That's interesting.. thanks for replying.. I guess I'm pretty convinced there is concrete (world referencing) meaning behind and to the visions given to John..
Of course I agree the strongest influence upon mankind since Eve ate from the forbidden tree, etc, is innate imperfection, the result..
..right now what I am trying to most pass on to whomever may listen, is when we see limited atomic/thermo-nuclear warfare is when things/events/pressures in the world will escalate, a pause having ended (a pause of thermo-nuclear - man's splitting of the atom - warfare-Rev 6:12-the seals described as a blend of what they are at beginning{13:13 carried out by an office} and what they are at full maturity/gallop/progression; which blend works as a lock on the vision; the pause Rev 7:1 - but believe me, I'm used to folks not seeing it..
:smile: :hiya: (I'd like to see believers able to pass on the vision to our kids and grand kids that some may avoid the "ten days tribulation" (great) of rev 20:4d, avoidance a blessing, imo, for those who "hear and heed")
Quote from: marie glen on July 12, 2014, 12:22:57 AM
That's interesting.. thanks for replying.. I guess I'm pretty convinced there is concrete (world referencing) meaning behind and to the visions given to John..
I used to look at it the same way. But then I saw that there is really no rules like that. The Bible does not demand such a view. But I always used to believe that there was because people told me so.
If I take this:
Jeremiah 25
11 And this whole land shall be a desolation, and an astonishment; and these nations shall serve the king of Babylon seventy years.
There is a literal/outward fulfillment and and a spiritual meaning, or fulfillment. But here is the catch.
I don't have to interpret a metaphor there. It's plain spoken. Comparing to:
Revelation 13
1 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.
In order to come to an outward meaning for this, I MUST employ a metaphor. If not, the literal meaning of this is that there is a literal beast with seven heads and ten horns hanging around heaven. So, in order to come to a concrete interpretation, I must do something unlike I did with Jeremiah, and interpret a metaphor.
Both you and I are interpreting metaphors, and there is no guarantee that one interpretation MUST be outwardly. There's no rule.
Quotebut believe me, I'm used to folks not seeing it
Ok, but I don't know why. Hal Lindsay has been talking about this stuff for years, to millions of people who agree with him and see it the same way he does. Same with Jack Van Impe and Rexella, and John Hagee. They've written many books about it. The nuclear stuff, the Soviets (now it's the terrorists, then Russia again), Lebanon, Obama, the Pope etc etc etc...The Left Behind series is one of the most popular books in Christendom uses the same approach to Revelation.
In fact, I grew up with those interpretations. And I am not exactly saying they are wrong. But I no longer insist on an outward interpretation of a metaphor as though it MUST be that way. I remember as a small child being instilled with nothing but dread whenever our preachers attempted to interpret the OT and Revelation. I will not be teaching my daughter those things. Now, I simply see another possibility, and alternate approach to the scripture.
Quote from: Seth on July 12, 2014, 12:58:23 AM
Hal Lindsay has been talking about this stuff for years, to millions of people who agree with him and see it the same way he does. Same with Jack Van Impe and Rexella, and John Hagee. They've written many books about it. The nuclear stuff, the Soviets (now it's the terrorists, then Russia again), Lebanon, Obama, the Pope etc etc etc...The Left Behind series is one of the most popular books in Christendom uses the same approach to Revelation.
In fact, I grew up with those interpretations. And I am not exactly saying they are wrong. But I no longer insist on an outward interpretation of a metaphor as though it MUST be that way. I remember as a small child being instilled with nothing but dread whenever our preachers attempted to interpret the OT and Revelation. I will not be teaching my daughter those things. Now, I simply see another possibility, and alternate approach to the scripture.
..I can't even read or listen to that stuff... but am convinced there is a fixed meaning concerning the world of man, the conclusion of what began in Eden at the fall, and how man's world is built on sand..
Years ago I fellowshipped at a Calvary Chapel and they did extensive study on Revelation, from a dispensational view.
They taught that most of Revelation is about Israel, interpreting the rapture of the church with John being taken up to heaven in Rev 4 and not "returning" until chapter 21. I never really "bought" that. Why would a book start out in it's first chapter expressly stating that the message was to the churches, and then only have two chapters on it?
This thread has taken on a somewhat different line of thought than originally presented, but I see the Holy Spirit working through that.
If we consider that the Revelation is about the Revelation of Jesus Christ unto the Churches, then I guess we better focus on that, as apposed to focusing on worldly events. So what is being revealed to the Church. We already know the revelation that Jesus was God's son sent unto us and that he died in atonement for our sins and was raised again to be our mediator. So all of that is already revealed in the Gospels and in the letters. (what was?)
So what is left? The epistles talked greatly about becoming a new creation, shedding off the old self, that of the anti-christ (those denying the Son and the Father), that salvation is universal. (what is?)
We see the message unto the Angels of the Churches (why not directly to the churches?). The message is of hearing, admonishment, chastisement, overcoming and promises of rewards. So then I would think that the scroll being opened up, in dramatic fashion with the breaking of the seven seals, would be the detail of the hearing, admonishment, chastisement, overcoming and promises. What seven things sealed them; wouldn't it be the opposite of what the unsealing is?
We see that Daniel was to seal up those things? What things? What happened in Babylon? Weren't the Jews and the Levites, the law and the prophets, held captive in Babylon? Is that maybe representative of mankind being held in bondage by the law, but with the hope of the prophets? Does Shadrak,Meshek and Abednigo (sp?) coming through the fire maybe represent the purging of sins? If so, then the lamb opening up the seals could represent mankind being loosed from the commandments and its judgment by His works? This would definitely be a message to the church, those things that "have been" from John's perspective. That being the general sealing and unsealing of the seals, what would be the detail of those seals?
And upon all the seals being opened, would we then not hear in further detail the message to the church and the revelation of Jesus Christ. So we should look for what represents the admonishments, the chastisements, the overcoming and the promises for the church and also the revelation of Jesus Christ.
Is that portrayed throughout the rest of revelation, from chapter 4 through 22? I can definitely see the final victory, revelation in the last two chapters of Christ and the Church, so then what about the meat, the stuff in the middle? What is being symbolized and how does it relate to the church? What significance to the church is the smiting of 1/3 of the Sun and moon? What is symbolically being represented by the seas, the rivers, the green grass, the grass, the trees, the beast, the lamb with two horns, the trumpets, the clouds...? All in regard to Christ and the Church?
I would think that all the in-between stuff is about the Church, the body of Christ. It is his message to us on what we are to be doing, growing unto perfection and being the light unto the world.
So let's take a look at that? What are we being admonished to do? What are we doing right? What do we need improvement on? What do we need to overcome?
Jesus broke us free from the bondage of sin, and has given his Church the power to be priests and kings! I think revelation is telling us how to do that.
Why the message to the Angel of the Churches?
Angels are messengers:
Rom_10:15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
Oh how we have been deceived! Oh how Satan misdirected our great commission and turned the truth into a lie!
Rev_22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. This is the end, this is the grand finally. We are his reward, and he is our reward! (is to come) :dsunny:
I know regurgitating is not pleasant, but it looks like I need to get rid of my false beliefs about Revelation!
I agree with some of that, but logically, it began with a world and planet... and mankind.. and results. Besides, I believe I can see what the metaphors mean.. in revelation imo I can see
the Mayflower,
modern man's splitting of the atom (fire over hiroshima and nagasaki) and the pause of that splitting as warfare,
"that which prevents being removed" (prevents man's dream of attaining world peace / paradise w/o God
the turning of western civilization on its ear by man's stronghold of the theory of evolution
world government..
the devouring of (extreme) capitalism by (extreme) socialism
and Rev 16:14-15-16 as Israel surrounded by armies and Jesus' literal return
:smile:
P.S - the birth of Jesus upon Earth, the fall of Lucifer.. perhaps more.. the collapse of man's empire, which logically (imo) cannot be avoided..
P.S.S - the triumphal gospel marching through the centuries, war given a long sword, inequity of man's world and systems, the black death,etc and mass graves.. ecological woes.. final thermo-nuclear (cross references - "the elements will melt with a fierce heat" "the earth will rock to and fro" "a new heavens and a new earth wherein righteousness" (and rightness?) "is to dwell"
a literal paradise restored to Earth and now un-breakable because all will fully know and understand good from evil, life from death, building on rock from building on sand..
Quote from: saintwalee on July 12, 2014, 02:16:14 AMThis thread has taken on a somewhat different line of thought than originally presented, but I see the Holy Spirit working through that.
Yeah, because for me, it gets at the question of what the heck is the beast and the anti-christ to begin with. I agree they are not the same, but may also be one. You are not Jesus Christ, but he considers you part of his body. So, the two are one. What if it's the same for the beast and anti-christ and satan, the dragon etc etc. What if they are all part of one body themselves?
QuoteIf we consider that the Revelation is about the Revelation of Jesus Christ unto the Churches, then I guess we better focus on that, as apposed to focusing on worldly events.
I don't mean to dismiss Marie's view out of hand. My whole thing is this: I don't want to insist on a certain formula for interpretation. There might be things in Revelation that speak to worldly events, and other images might speak wholly to internal things. I don't think there is necessarily a "key to Revelation" in the sense of a dependable formula. If there were, then we could figure it all out without God revealing it. We would just need to plug in the right scriptures and the answer comes out nice and tidy.
Anyway, my personal view of what Revelation is talking about, I believe (personally) could be summarized by this scripture:
Matthew 1:21
She will give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus, because he will save his people from their sins.
This is what I believe Revelation is talking about. Worldly events surely could play into that, but I think at the end of the day, the whole book of Revelation is about the process of Jesus saving his people from sin, from the elect all the way to the ends of the earth.
1) That's what Jesus came to do
2) That's how he got his name (Jesus means God saves)
3) It's the Revelation of Jesus Christ
So it seems to me that the Revelation of Jesus Christ is all about his mission on earth, why he was sent, his methods and tactics to get the job done, and the results.
Quote from: Seth on July 12, 2014, 02:27:22 AM
Quote from: saintwalee on July 12, 2014, 02:16:14 AMThis thread has taken on a somewhat different line of thought than originally presented, but I see the Holy Spirit working through that.
Yeah, because for me, it gets at the question of what the heck is the beast and the anti-christ to begin with. I agree they are not the same, but may also be one. You are not Jesus Christ, but he considers you part of his body. So, the two are one. What if it's the same for the beast and anti-christ and satan, the dragon etc etc. What if they are all part of one body themselves?
QuoteIf we consider that the Revelation is about the Revelation of Jesus Christ unto the Churches, then I guess we better focus on that, as apposed to focusing on worldly events.
I don't mean to dismiss Marie's view out of hand. My whole thing is this: I don't want to insist on a certain formula for interpretation. There might be things in Revelation that speak to worldly events, and other images might speak wholly to internal things. I don't think there is necessarily a "key to Revelation" in the sense of a dependable formula. If there were, then we could figure it all out without God revealing it. We would just need to plug in the right scriptures and the answer comes out nice and tidy.
Anyway, my personal view of what Revelation is talking about, I believe (personally) could be summarized by this scripture:
Matthew 1:21
She will give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus, because he will save his people from their sins.
This is what I believe Revelation is talking about. Worldly events surely could play into that, but I think at the end of the day, the whole book of Revelation is about the process of Jesus saving his people from sin, from the elect all the way to the ends of the earth.
1) That's what Jesus came to do
2) That's how he got his name (Jesus means God saves)
3) It's the Revelation of Jesus Christ
So it seems to me that the Revelation of Jesus Christ is all about his mission on earth, why he was sent, his methods and tactics to get the job done, and the results.
That's a nice post, Seth, thanks.. of course i agree with the story all being Jesus, but to me, also, is "the wages of sin is death" and to me, this refers also to the world, man's world..
I do believe there are at least two keys :smile: which only the Holy Spirit can give which open specific locks on the vision..
I'm pretty much a spiritual hermit, not taught doctrines.. not even U.R...
..beasts in Daniel were, imo, empires of men.. with a direct cross reference between Daniel 7:19,20 with Rev 13:1 (imo :smile: )
After I posted, a few more thoughts came to mind. This is a three step process, so to speak.
What happened in Genesis in the Garden of Edan at the tree of knowledge of good and evil? The serpent did two tremendous things. One, he made Adam and Eve sin, thereby rendering their relationship with God, but also he took control of the Earth! It has been his ever since then, until...
Jesus came to get it back!
REPENT, for the Kingdom of Heaven is at hand. This is not a call stop sinning. This is a call to come back into the Kingdom of God. Repent literally is "to bring back in". Mankind has been in Satan's kingdom, but Jesus has come to get his children back into His Kingdom (parable of lost sheep).
How is Jesus doing this? I believe he has to equip his army. First he has to empower them, and by destroying the power of sin, setting the captives free. But then the army has to take over the enemy. So the soldiers have to be trained; that is where we learn to overcome our sinful nature (this is what I believe Seth is professing), and finally, we will be ready to battle, to be conquerers.
The greatest victories are not won on the battle field, but in the hearts and minds of the people. Satan did exactly that in the Garden of Eden, he gave Eve and Adam new knowledge, and that knowledge captured them into his kingdom.
The war will be won in the same manner, by the changing of knowledge in the hearts and minds of all people. Satan's kingdom will fall from within.
No, I think it is much more that just being saved from sin and one day sitting in the clouds playing harps. The battlefield is within ourselves, as a microcosim, but Jesus' victory will be global, He will get his Kingdom back!
Quote from: saintwalee on July 12, 2014, 03:07:56 AM
The war will be won in the same manner, by the changing of knowledge in the hearts and minds of all people. Satan's kingdom will fall from within.
No, I think it is much more that just being saved from sin and one day sitting in the clouds playing harps. The battlefield is within ourselves, as a microcosim, but Jesus' victory will be global, He will get his Kingdom back!
I think I view this a tiny way differently perhaps, in that I believe the fall was part of God's plan all along.. It's my belief He could see all possibilities from 'the beginning' and has chosen all things just as He has done them so that the best possibility would be brought about.. Why wait and only create the universe and man and woman not only after the first bound to occur rebel thought occurred but after it was matured into full blown sedition and trickery? I think bound-to-occur rebel thought as with thinking ability (endowed) comes the ability sooner or later, to make choices.. somewhere, sometime, someone was bound to think "say, do we hAve to do everything God's way?"
You see the dilemma/paradox? once one chooses anything other than God, who is life itself (surely?) and also perfection, they become imperfect, the opposite of life. I think all would wander from perfection sooner or later, so why not engineer it so this unavoidable lesson and journey is taken by all, at once? Unavoidable, I believe, that is, if there's to be rational creatures.
And since God is life, He lives through, suffers and experiences all sufferings and indignations which ever occur! why would He put Himself through all that? Perhaps because what He's creating is not an ant farm or robots or a universe of only flora and fauna, but His own family and an eternal un-breakable paradise.. Unbreakable for aLL will fully understand good from evil which is also life from death..
Why are not all "chosen" to come to the faith in this lifetime? perhaps because a drama, even a truth-proving drama, needs more than one character (to be convincing). And what is said to be the best teacher? Imo, He is writing His law / the full understanding of good from evil upon every heart, mind and psyche. And the Book of Revelation, to me, logically, is the 'end' of the story, the conclusion, and the proof that what is built on sand and not the rock, can never stand. And to wander from God/Life can only ever result in collapse in a self destructive wisp of smoke (which of course God will have fully demonstrated,
but prevented our individual destruction!! O what a wise God we serve!!!) But which smoke shall rise up eternally, in that it will never be forgotten... this great lesson He is teaching..
..this is why, imo, the languages were confused at Tower Babel "look what man does, soon nothing will be impossible to them for they are one" ending all things (in collapse) way too soon.. And then too, where would you and I be, and so many more? We wouldn't. But now, the world again is becoming one..
:smile: God bless!
:iagree:
I absolutely agree this is all God's plan and that nothing goes off script!
This is all for raising His children with His qualities.
But to what end? Just speculating here, but is it possible that we are to become ministering spirits elsewhere in His realm. Jesus said, "in my father's house are many mansions".
This all could just be the school for things beyond our imagination!
I believe we will be ministering spirits in this realm in that God is going to use his elect to bring everyone else in. That's what I believe this waiting for Christ to reveal the sons of God to the world is all about.
:iagree:
Amen to that!
Quote from: Seth on July 12, 2014, 03:53:01 AM
I believe we will be ministering spirits in this realm in that God is going to use his elect to bring everyone else in. That's what I believe this waiting for Christ to reveal the sons of God to the world is all about.
Yup!
Quote from: marie glen on July 11, 2014, 08:33:57 PM
Quote from: Seth on July 10, 2014, 08:31:34 PM
Quote from: saintwalee on July 10, 2014, 05:09:14 AM
Seth's Quote; "I think Revelation is a great test. Who do we point at other than ourselves?"
Maybe I'm missing your point friend.
But I believe there is a literal aspect as well, that will be played out in the theater of Earth.
My own view on Revelation is that I doubt there is a literal aspect. For example, if I take Revelation 19, where the one who sits on the white horse strikes down all the earth with the sword in his mouth. Jesus already said that if anyone does not believe in him, he will not judge them, but his words will judge them.
I don't believe that Jesus will literally use a sword to kill people. I believe it's symbolic. In fact, if we are talking about a LITERAL beast, then we can't appeal to symbolism at all, because then, it's not literal anymore.
So the question becomes, what is it symbolic of? One common thread I always see is that nobody thinks it's themselves. It's always the Romans, or the Catholics, or the Protestants, or the Jews, or America, or Russia, and on and on. But one common thread among all the theories is this: it's always someone else.
I can't claim to have the answer, but one thing I do know is that God loves a good surprise. And what if we found out that the beast is within us?
A really good read on this subject can be found here:
- Who is the Beast? by L. Ray Smith (http://bible-truths.com/lake13.html)
- The Beast Within by L. Ray Smith (http://bible-truths.com/lake14.html)
I believe symbols and metaphor are used in Bible prophecy, but strongly disbelieve that Bible prophecy itself is metaphor
...especially not as metaphor for what is clearly and plainly written in other books of the Bible..
Man's empires are built on sand.. Revelation, the unveiling (to me) seems most logical to be the culmination of history, the 'end' of the story so to speak.. The results and outcome which unveils and clearly shows to all, once and for all eternity, the truth that one cannot wander from God who is Life itself..
Surely to do so has concrete results in the heart, mind and psyche, but also in the world.. Was Israel's carrying away to Babylon metaphor only? Why now is Bible prophecy merely metaphor? (And for things already written!)
:Chinscratch: (puzzlement :)
The entire book of revelations is symbolism. It says so at the beginning of chapter 1.
Rev 1:1
The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must
shortly come to pass; and he sent and
signified (symbilosed) it by his angel unto his servant John:
Apochraphal symbolic writing was the common style in the day with all the events of the day. You only get in trouble when you try to force the writings to conform to a literal current event meaning.
It is the revelation of Jesus Christ...not a beast or an anti-christ. Also please note the "shortly come to pass"...not in 2000 years.
:banana: :banana: :banana:
So what are the symbols and what do they represent?
Rev 17:1 And there came one of the seven angels which had the seven vials, and talked with me, saying unto me, Come hither; I will shew unto thee the judgment of the great whore that sitteth upon many waters:
Rev 17:15 And he saith unto me, The waters which thou sawest, where the whore sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues.
So, the many waters is answered.
What about the great whore? The Sun? The moon? The Stars?... As I previously posted, what do these represent? Please post your thoughts on the symbols and what they mean. The many waters was easy, it plainly told us, but some aren't explained.
Quote from: saintwalee on July 12, 2014, 07:39:55 AM
So what are the symbols and what do they represent?
hi! I'll respond to your posts, but first:
I do agree with you about WHO the Rev 13:1 beast will be.. the one with ten horns..
or that is, I think we are both right!
It's was right there in front of my nose, but I forgot! -- infiltration.. (which
is in progress even now).
"where the dead body is, there the vultures will be" dead, here, as w/o God
The office which carried out 13:13 (in 1945--dah? that's not toward you! It's just SO obvious and so not seen)
And the world body which become the dream of mankind (politics, the dove/peace w/o God) - the world body which the office which did 13:13 will give strength to (verse 13:?)
But, either dream, world peace or a world caliphate, cannot be attained until "he who prevents is taken away" (rev 20:4d)
I believe the world body (Rev 13:1; 17:12) to be the 'resurrection' of the League of Nations (Strong's #1285). And its formation is interesting (Lucifer as angel of light; formed by Lucifer Trust, renamed Lucis Trust)
The vulture (Islam) and the Dove (modern western politics) whether knowingly or unknowingly, will work together to attain world reach (imo :smile: )
Of interest -
Ps 72:9 "
The desert nomads shall bow before him; his enemies shall fall face downward in the dust."
&
From Dan chapter 2(31-34;39-40)
"
O king, you saw a huge and powerful statue of a man, shining brilliantly, frightening and terrible. 32 The head of the statue was made of purest gold, its chest and arms were of silver, its belly and thighs of brass, 33 its legs of iron, its feet part iron and part clay. 34 But as you watched, a Rock was cut from the mountainside by supernatural means. It came hurtling toward the statue and crushed the feet of iron and clay, smashing them to bits.""39
"But after your kingdom" (gold/babylon) "has come to an end, another world power will arise to take your place. This empire will be inferior to yours. And after that kingdom has fallen, yet a third great power*—represented by the bronze belly of the statue—will rise to rule the world." (Greece) 40
Following it, the fourth kingdom will be strong as iron—smashing, bruising, and conquering." (Rome)
19
Then I asked about the fourth beast, the one so brutal and shocking, with its iron" (Roman) "teeth" (columns) "and bronze" (Greek) "claws" (philosophy?) "that tore men apart and stamped others to death with its feet." (Roman/Graeco)[/i] ("what the iron doesn't destroy the bronze does")
From Dan 7:19,77
Then, as I watched in my dream, a fourth animal rose up out of the ocean, too dreadful to describe and incredibly strong. It devoured some of its victims by tearing them apart with its huge iron teeth, and others it crushed beneath its feet. It was far more brutal and vicious than any of the other animals, and it had ten horns.
:smile: :Peace2:
Did you see in the news that Germany sent a Delegation to Israel to broker peace?
I think I did hear something about that.. Interesting..
Quote from: saintwalee on July 12, 2014, 03:49:57 AM
:iagree:
I absolutely agree this is all God's plan and that nothing goes off script!
This is all for raising His children with His qualities.
But to what end? Just speculating here, but is it possible that we are to become ministering spirits elsewhere in His realm. Jesus said, "in my father's house are many mansions".
This all could just be the school for things beyond our imagination!
Quote from: Seth on July 12, 2014, 03:53:01 AM
I believe we will be ministering spirits in this realm in that God is going to use his elect to bring everyone else in. That's what I believe this waiting for Christ to reveal the sons of God to the world is all about.
I believe something like that too, I guess I think of the millenium as a time of learning and building/restoring and judgment day as lasting 500 years (has to do with the fall holy days and spaces between and they as prophecy of the 2nd advent of Jesus).. So I believe we will be 'aides' during the long, intense and difficult day of stringent review of all man's history.. Not a pretty story by any means..
After that? i agree! beyond our imaginings, even fondest!.. I believe even that every animal that ever lived will live again and of course all the people and this begins the filling of the universe..?
:laugh2: just thinking out loud for a moment..
I have to admit, I find it a little weird that after most of you become adherents to UR, that the rest of your doctrinal leanings didn't change as you belief landscape changed. When I was blessed with the rhema of UR it put so many other things into perspective. If ET isn't true, then the vast end times mythological end times conspiracies also can't be true. If you understand your correct perspective then UR is just not compatable with end times myths. If you still think they do, then IMO you do not really understand the true ramifications of what UR means and changes in the doctrinal landscape. I must confess, I get surprised at how some of you still hold onto this nonsense. You don't need to be aware of what all the symbols mean to be successful as a disciple as the main thing to concentrate on is the chastisements and corrections of our Father who is trying to put our old man, our carnal nature to death. Anything that distracts from that is a red-herring. We trust our Father to lead us and guide us into all truth, but we don't learn it all at once. We grow into it. I don't need to know everything now...I need to learn what he is trying to teach me NOW. Not lessons for a path I haven't walked yet.
Here's an article on the symbolism of Revelations. Part 1 of a 4 part series. I hope it helps clarify things.
http://www.remnantbiblestudies.com/article9_lake_of_fire_pt1.html
:banana: :banana: :banana:
QuoteIf ET isn't true, then the vast end times mythological end times conspiracies also can't be true. If you understand your correct perspective then UR is just not compatable with end times myths.
The fact that ET isn't true does not automatically disprove other beliefs people have about the end times. I don't change my beliefs just because. I change them when I see if the scripture supports them or does not. That requires study and conversation with other believers.
Is the White Throne Judgement at the end of some age, or does it take place while we are actually living our lives?
2Co 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.
Seeing God is with us continually, he would be witnessing first hand everything we do. (I've always felt paranoid, like someone was watching!)
I do think that Revelation is about the body of Christ, but not that only. I truly believe the events are to be played out in the world theater as well. Actually are being played out.
Quote from: Seth on July 14, 2014, 05:10:05 AM
QuoteIf ET isn't true, then the vast end times mythological end times conspiracies also can't be true. If you understand your correct perspective then UR is just not compatable with end times myths.
The fact that ET isn't true does not automatically disprove other beliefs people have about the end times. I don't change my beliefs just because. I change them when I see if the scripture supports them or does not. That requires study and conversation with other believers.
It's not brain surgery Seth. What you already knew should have come into focus and new understanding when you started to understand UR. If one thing means this, then it should affect the other thing. Are you saying you never had the "AHA!" moments in your own doctrinal understanding? You seem to be a clever guy. I find it hard to believe that you didn't. UR and trinity and free will are at odds with each other scripturally. So is end times mythology. When the broom comes to the kitchen then it needs to be swept clean...You don't save the old dust and crumbs on the floor for later. If 'all' are to be reconciled then we don't look for paths of future potential destruction and non existent boogeymen.
You're saying that once you understand that ET is false, then suddenly you're supposed to understand EVERYTHING all at once? Everything doesn't just fall into place. It takes study and time and fellowship to understand how everything works together. Sorry I didn't have the instant day-one doctrinal fix that you did (that must have been one dramatic day), but I guess everyone is different.
Some people believe God will beat people forever, and others believe that God will still beat people, just not forever. I discovered that God isn't out to beat people at all. But it took time and digging and questioning to get that. It didn't just come with the UR territory, and I don't believe that preterism does either. Just because God isn't going to torment people forever isn't a guarantee of preterism as a way of interpreting Revelation.
Quote from: watchman1706 on July 14, 2014, 05:06:35 AM
I have to admit, I find it a little weird that after most of you become adherents to UR, that the rest of your doctrinal leanings didn't change as you belief landscape changed. When I was blessed with the rhema of UR it put so many other things into perspective. If ET isn't true, then the vast end times mythological end times conspiracies also can't be true. If you understand your correct perspective then UR is just not compatable with end times myths. If you still think they do, then IMO you do not really understand the true ramifications of what UR means and changes in the doctrinal landscape. I must confess, I get surprised at how some of you still hold onto this nonsense. You don't need to be aware of what all the symbols mean to be successful as a disciple as the main thing to concentrate on is the chastisements and corrections of our Father who is trying to put our old man, our carnal nature to death. Anything that distracts from that is a red-herring. We trust our Father to lead us and guide us into all truth, but we don't learn it all at once. We grow into it. I don't need to know everything now...I need to learn what he is trying to teach me NOW. Not lessons for a path I haven't walked yet.
Here's an article on the symbolism of Revelations. Part 1 of a 4 part series. I hope it helps clarify things.
http://www.remnantbiblestudies.com/article9_lake_of_fire_pt1.html
:banana: :banana: :banana:
With all the diversity of perspective on this site I think to generalize what "most of you" believe is pretty presumptious. Maybe arrogant even. Sorry, but that's how I feel.
Quote from: saintwalee on July 14, 2014, 06:21:02 AM
Is the White Throne Judgement at the end of some age, or does it take place while we are actually living our lives?
It's not even agreed upon what the White Throne actually is. :laugh:
http://tentmaker.org/forum/lounge/great-white-throne-judgement-judgement-from-within/msg119683/#msg119683
Quote from: saintwalee on July 14, 2014, 06:21:02 AM
I do think that Revelation is about the body of Christ, but not that only. I truly believe the events are to be played out in the world theater as well. Actually are being played out.
I think if you would compile a list of all views that were ever written down by mankind you have perfect list of how things
not gonna be :banana:
I think His 2nd coming will be overlooked just as His 1st coming. The few that did see the first coming were basically hunted down for blasphemy and the ones that will see His second coming end up in an asylum. :winkgrin:
So what will be the body of Christ? I would say it's about people who believe Him. Really believe in Him.
Just imagine Jesus arrives tomorrow and starts preaching. He will be called insane by atheists. Most believers will call Him the beast, false prophet or similar because He doesn't preach according to their doctrine. Miracles won't work either because most just assume He's the new David Copperfield or has satanic powers. Sounds a bit like 2000 years ago, doesn't it?
I'm really wondering what things will look like....
Quote from: watchman1706 on July 12, 2014, 06:29:26 AM
The entire book of revelations is symbolism. It says so at the beginning of chapter 1.
:hiya: :smile:
Revelation 1:1-3 - Young's Literal Translation (YLT)
1
A revelation of Jesus Christ, that God gave to him, to shew to his servants what things it behoveth to come to pass quickly; and he did signify [it], having sent through his messenger to his servant John,"
signify" - the Greek = "semaino" =
to indicate2
who did testify the word of God, and the testimony of Jesus Christ, as many things also as he did see.
3 Happy is he who is reading, and those hearing, the words of the prophecy, and keeping the things written in it -- for the time is nigh!It's been said this prophecy was about 70a.d but it was written in 90 a.d approx.. like death, apocalypse (collapse revealing error/untruth) is always nigh.. close & possible
Besides "shortly" is inserted by the translators and a closer rendering would be "which things it is binding to occur quickly"
Quote from: watchman1706 on July 12, 2014, 06:29:26 AM
Apochraphal symbolic writing was the common style in the day with all the events of the day. You only get in trouble when you try to force the writings to conform to a literal current event meaning.
So why the Book of Revelation at all? Since it simply repeats things written plainly elsewhere. And if that's true is just a way to waste believer's time? Also Daniel refers to prophecy being sealed for a time.. so our Lord using Apochraphal and symbolism makes a lot of sense.. but simply repeating what is already written elsewhere, doesn't to me, make sense at all..
"
to show to His servants things which must come to pass"...
And I do believe the Lord had specific intent of what each symbol, etc means...
"watch" (watch and pray) - why write it and send it if it cannot or is not meant to be understood?
"
to show to His servants things which must come to pass" - I hadn't taken note of the word "must" before.. :Chinscratch:
:Peace2:
Quote from: watchman1706 on July 14, 2014, 05:06:35 AM
I have to admit, I find it a little weird that after most of you become adherents to UR, that the rest of your doctrinal leanings didn't change as you belief landscape changed. When I was blessed with the rhema of UR it put so many other things into perspective. If ET isn't true, then the vast end times mythological end times conspiracies also can't be true. If you understand your correct perspective then UR is just not compatable with end times myths. If you still think they do, then IMO you do not really understand the true ramifications of what UR means and changes in the doctrinal landscape. I must confess, I get surprised at how some of you still hold onto this nonsense. You don't need to be aware of what all the symbols mean to be successful as a disciple as the main thing to concentrate on is the chastisements and corrections of our Father who is trying to put our old man, our carnal nature to death. Anything that distracts from that is a red-herring. We trust our Father to lead us and guide us into all truth, but we don't learn it all at once. We grow into it. I don't need to know everything now...I need to learn what he is trying to teach me NOW. Not lessons for a path I haven't walked yet.
Here's an article on the symbolism of Revelations. Part 1 of a 4 part series. I hope it helps clarify things.
http://www.remnantbiblestudies.com/article9_lake_of_fire_pt1.html
:banana: :banana: :banana:
repentence yes, and the further we grow, the more glaring our flaws.. yet it is not all and only about me, but sharing the Word with others..
"O what of the Watchman?!" "if he see the sword coming and not warn, I will require their blood at their hand"! And is there something wrong with seeing the 'story' (Bible) as a whole thing?? from fall (including of the world) and redemption (including the world).. Revelation is the peak.. I reject the idea it should be left out.. if I didn't feel I understood it, fine.. I would pray to do so..
Quote from: watchman1706 on July 14, 2014, 05:06:35 AM
"We trust our Father to lead us and guide us into all truth, but we don't learn it all at once. We grow into it. I don't need to know everything now."
I've been reading the Word for 35 years.. as surely many others have too, and yes, to me, saying something in God's Word is only metaphor, is not logical
Hebrews 6:1-3 New King James Version (NKJV)
6
Therefore, leaving the discussion of the elementary principles of Christ, let us go on to perfection, not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God, 2 of the doctrine of baptisms, of laying on of hands, of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment. 3 And this we will do if God permits. :smile: God bless!
P.S -
Quote from: watchman1706 on July 14, 2014, 05:06:35 AM
I have to admit, I find it a little weird that after most of you become adherents to UR, that the rest of your doctrinal leanings didn't change
Are you referring to the LOF as ppl being cast into? I would agree.. but that's the only adherence I'm seeing..
Quote from: WhiteWings on July 14, 2014, 09:38:40 AM
Quote from: saintwalee on July 14, 2014, 06:21:02 AM
I do think that Revelation is about the body of Christ, but not that only. I truly believe the events are to be played out in the world theater as well. Actually are being played out.
that seems logical to me.. other wise, it is an open ended thing..
Quote from: WhiteWings on July 14, 2014, 09:38:40 AM
I think if you would compile a list of all views that were ever written down by mankind you have perfect list of how things not gonna be :banana:
The only thing I care about is what the Word says..
Quote from: WhiteWings on July 14, 2014, 09:38:40 AM
I think His 2nd coming will be overlooked just as His 1st coming. The few that did see the first coming were basically hunted down for blasphemy and the ones that will see His second coming end up in an asylum. :winkgrin:
So what will be the body of Christ? I would say it's about people who believe Him. Really believe in Him.
Just imagine Jesus arrives tomorrow and starts preaching. He will be called insane by atheists. Most believers will call Him the beast, false prophet or similar because He doesn't preach according to their doctrine. Miracles won't work either because most just assume He's the new David Copperfield or has satanic powers. Sounds a bit like 2000 years ago, doesn't it?
I'm really wondering what things will look like....
..doesn't it say He returns and every eye will see Him?
"what will be the sign of your coming?" Mt 24, Lk 21, Mk 13
Matthew 24:29-31Young's Literal Translation (YLT)
29 `And immediately after the tribulation of those days, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from the heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken;
30 and then shall appear the sign of the Son of Man in the heaven; and then shall all the tribes of the earth smite the breast, and they shall see the Son of Man coming upon the clouds of the heaven, with power and much glory;
31 and he shall send his messengers with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his chosen from the four winds, from the ends of the heavens unto the ends thereof."
Zechariah 14:4 King James Version (KJV)
4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
see verse 3 + Rev 19:21
From Revelation 20 - Young's Literal Translation (YLT)
20 And I saw a messenger coming down out of the heaven, having the key of the abyss, and a great chain...
2 and he laid hold on the dragon, the old serpent, who is Devil and Adversary, and did bind him a thousand years,
3 and he cast him to the abyss, and did shut him up, and put a seal upon him, that he may not lead astray the nations any more, till the thousand years may be finished; and after these it behoveth him to be loosed a little time.
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given to them, and the souls of those who have been beheaded because of the testimony of Jesus, and because of the word of God, and who did not bow before the beast, nor his image, and did not receive the mark upon their forehead and upon their hand, and they did live and reign with Christ the thousand years;
5 and the rest of the dead did not live again till the thousand years may be finished; this [is] the first rising again.
6 Happy and holy [is] he who is having part in the first rising again; over these the second death hath not authority, but they shall be priests of God and of the Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
7 And when the thousand years may be finished, the Adversary shall be loosed out of his prison,
8 and he shall go forth to lead the nations astray, that are in the four corners of the earth -- Gog and Magog -- to gather them together to war, of whom the number [is] as the sand of the sea;
9 and they did go up over the breadth of the land, and did surround the camp of the saints, and the beloved city, and there came down fire from God out of the heaven, and devoured them;
10 and the Devil, who is leading them astray, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where [are] the beast and the false prophet" (imo institutions of men, no ppl thus far in LOF) "and they shall be tormented" (Strong's 928, from root 931 w/ sense of "going to the bottom") "day and night -- to the ages of the ages.
11 And I saw a great white throne, and Him who is sitting upon it, from whose face the earth and the heaven did flee away, and place was not found for them;
12 and I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and scrolls were opened, and another scroll was opened, which is that of the life, and the dead were judged out of the things written in the scrolls -- according to their works;[/u]"
(fall holy day-as prophecy of the 2nd peak of His 2nd advent? - DOA - from Lev 23:27-29 - "Also the tenth day of this seventh month shall be the Day of Atonement. It shall be a holy convocation for you; you shall afflict your souls.. for it is the Day of Atonement, to make atonement for you before the Lord your God. 29 ..any person who is not afflicted in soul on that same day shall be cut off from among his people."
Leviticus 25:9 - "Then you shall cause the trumpet of the Jubilee to sound ..on the Day of Atonement you shall make the trumpet to sound throughout all your land."
imo, spring holy days prophesied 1st advent and thus fall ones..?
"13 and the sea did give up those dead in it, and the death and the hades did give up the dead in them, and they were judged, each one according to their works;
Psalm 22:27 - "All the ends of the world shall remember and turn unto the Lord" (when?) "and all the families of the nations shall worship before thee."
Psalm 72:9,11 - "The desert nomads shall bow before him; his enemies shall fall face downward in the dust.. all kings shall fall down before him: all nations shall serve him.[/i]" When will this occur?
14 and" (then?) "the death and the hades were cast to the lake of the fire -- this [is] the second death;
15 and if (by then???) any one was not found written in the scroll of the life, he was cast to the lake of the fire.
God bless..
Quote from: saintwalee on July 12, 2014, 07:39:55 AM
So what are the symbols and what do they represent?
Rev 17:1 And there came one of the seven angels which had the seven vials, and talked with me, saying unto me, Come hither; I will shew unto thee the judgment of the great whore that sitteth upon many waters:
the 7 vials Revelation says is the final wrath.. imo, final results/consequences.. which is what I believe the judgment of God is!! :HeartThrob: I believe they are concurrent and are thermal-nuclear (rev 6:12 described in ch 6(12-17) - the splitting of the atom, as a blend, what it is at its beginning/1st and what it is when fully matured/fully galloped or matured, if this one was riding a horse, that is! this description of the seals as a blend of its 1st and last is a lock on the vision, confusing it..
notice 7:1 a pause of this new fiery wind..(imo) and where I believe we are at right now.. til limited thermal-nuclear warfare will signify the opening of the 7th seal and thus moving on to the trumpets and escalation.
Quote from: saintwalee on July 12, 2014, 07:39:55 AM
Rev 17:15 And he saith unto me, The waters which thou sawest, where the whore sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues.
So, the many waters is answered.
What about the great whore? The Sun? The moon? The Stars?... As I previously posted, what do these represent? Please post your thoughts on the symbols and what they mean. The many waters was easy, it plainly told us, but some aren't explained.
the sun and moon are darkened, literal.. from smokiness.. but the sun and "moon under her feet is symbolism for the faith, Israel gives birth to the manchild/Son of man / with twelve stars around her head, but after Christ is not devoured by the dragon via Herod and is later caught up to God and His throne, the woman, the faith is Christianity.. which 2 major migrations of.. -- rev ch 12-one of three inserts which work to confuse the vision along with one other 'lock'
"the stars.. are angels.." end of rev 1 - the dragon, that old serpent and adversary drew 1/3 of the stars to the earth.. (downward) - Rev ch 12
The Harlot, the city which enchants and beguiles, etc, on 7 hills/continents - the Greek - "harlot" = "pornos" Capitalism went pornos and corrupted the nations and will deserve her crash ("fallen! fallen!") and the falling of her towers "in the day all the towers fall" - Isaiah? Do many think man's towers (built on sand) will stand forever?? Rev 17 & 18 describe her.. she made the merchants wealthy, her forehead, all babble/untruth is cause of
all slain on earth; the kings are in bed with her.. the merchants weep when she falls in one day.. see the list of her products and luxuries which she sold.. Rev 17 & 18.
:smile:
I think of the rev characters as a pentagram (imo)
1-world beast/body (13:1; Dan 7:19,7)
2-an office which in the sight of man brought fire down [imo,upon hiroshima and nagasaki--(dah?!?not toward anyone, just a general feeling of mine:)]
3-the false prophet, white smocked with many modern miracles and marvels, and who has turned Christendom/western civilization on its ear, and also a great falling away/delusion.. a GReaT delusion, which we've yet to see the fulness of? it does prophecy and look once again to the stars..
4-$ity Babble on and on (rev chapters 17 & 18)
5-and her forehead (psyche) all babble/untruth
note how socialism will at last devour capitalism (the world beast/body
of last hour (rev 17:12,16,17) with ten divisions?/kings/toes some iron(western/graco-roman/bronze-iron,see daniel2:31+ and 7:19,7) some clay/not western
God bless..
sorry to write so much
Quote from: marie glen on July 14, 2014, 05:19:08 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on July 14, 2014, 09:38:40 AM
Quote from: saintwalee on July 14, 2014, 06:21:02 AM
I do think that Revelation is about the body of Christ, but not that only. I truly believe the events are to be played out in the world theater as well. Actually are being played out.
that seems logical to me.. other wise, it is an open ended thing..
Quote from: WhiteWings on July 14, 2014, 09:38:40 AM
I think if you would compile a list of all views that were ever written down by mankind you have perfect list of how things not gonna be :banana:
The only thing I care about is what the Word says..
You are missing my point. All people on that list care what the Word says.
QuoteQuote from: WhiteWings on July 14, 2014, 09:38:40 AM
I think His 2nd coming will be overlooked just as His 1st coming. The few that did see the first coming were basically hunted down for blasphemy and the ones that will see His second coming end up in an asylum. :winkgrin:
So what will be the body of Christ? I would say it's about people who believe Him. Really believe in Him.
Just imagine Jesus arrives tomorrow and starts preaching. He will be called insane by atheists. Most believers will call Him the beast, false prophet or similar because He doesn't preach according to their doctrine. Miracles won't work either because most just assume He's the new David Copperfield or has satanic powers. Sounds a bit like 2000 years ago, doesn't it?
I'm really wondering what things will look like....
..doesn't it say He returns and every eye will see Him?
Just like it was very clear at His first coming with
many prophesies pointing to Him.
QuoteSo why the Book of Revelation at all? Since it simply repeats things written plainly elsewhere. And if that's true is just a way to waste believer's time?
Matthew 10:27
What I tell you in the dark, speak in the daylight; what is whispered in your ear, proclaim from the roofs.
Speaking plainly is a way to reveal what Christ says in the dark. The Book of Revelation is filled with symbols which are used to justify false doctrine. The plain spoken written things are useful to explain what Revelation is talking about, and same with the parables.
Why did Jesus speak in parables? Because "to them it was not given to know the mysteries of the kingdom, but for you it is given."
Quote from: marie glen on July 14, 2014, 03:53:24 PM
"signify" - the Greek = "semaino" = to indicate
Although I believe the Rev is full of symbols (obviously) I believe that's a bit of misnomer that's often used regarding 'signify' = "everything in it is symbolic so it's all spiritual and there's NOTHING literal about it because it says so right at the beginning". As you just pointed out, signify doesn't necessarily (or even
primarily) mean 'symbol'. It has other primary definitions besides symbol or symbolize.
:iagree:
Quote from: jabcat on July 14, 2014, 08:49:48 PM
Quote from: marie glen on July 14, 2014, 03:53:24 PM
"signify" - the Greek = "semaino" = to indicate
Although I believe the Rev is full of symbols (obviously) I believe that's a bit of misnomer that's often used regarding 'signify' = "everything in it is symbolic so it's all spiritual and there's NOTHING literal about it because it says so right at the beginning". As you just pointed out, signify doesn't necessarily (or even primarily) mean 'symbol'. It has other primary definitions besides symbol or symbolize.
I think a large percentage of Revelation is symbolic. But for me that doesn't mean the same percentage is spiritual only.
A lamb is symbolic for Jesus. Both animal and the Man are very real.
The Temple was a pattern (symbol) of heaven. It really existed for centuries.
I think almost everything is literal in Revelation, but in a symbolic way.
So if Revelation would state, angry birds devour Iraq, it could symbolically mean American (eagle) bombers and fighter jets are on a warpath.
A symbolic beast could be literal nation.
None of that all excludes spiritual parallels.
I agree that it could mean those things but I think it could also be exclusively spiritual as well. My whole point is that we should throw out all rules such as the church has created. It could be that one symbol over here represents an outward thing, and a symbol over there an inward thing, and yet again a symbol over there, both.
I heard a Christian radio guy say that we must interpret everything in the Bible literally, unless it's obviously a metaphor. I thought, why? Who made that rule up, and are we certain that God is abiding by it at all times?
Quote from: Seth on July 14, 2014, 06:50:35 AM
You're saying that once you understand that ET is false, then suddenly you're supposed to understand EVERYTHING all at once? Everything doesn't just fall into place. It takes study and time and fellowship to understand how everything works together. Sorry I didn't have the instant day-one doctrinal fix that you did (that must have been one dramatic day), but I guess everyone is different.
Some people believe God will beat people forever, and others believe that God will still beat people, just not forever. I discovered that God isn't out to beat people at all. But it took time and digging and questioning to get that. It didn't just come with the UR territory, and I don't believe that preterism does either. Just because God isn't going to torment people forever isn't a guarantee of preterism as a way of interpreting Revelation.
No, but the process certainly did. And like you said, it did take study, but my brain juices started flowing and as I talked it out with fellow believers, it did fall into place. What I said had nothing to do with preterism. I am not a follower of that line of thinking. Nor am I a follower of any 'ism'. But the light switch should have flicked on and brought light to other places.
Quote from: eaglesway on July 14, 2014, 09:04:21 AM
Quote from: watchman1706 on July 14, 2014, 05:06:35 AM
I have to admit, I find it a little weird that after most of you become adherents to UR, that the rest of your doctrinal leanings didn't change as you belief landscape changed. When I was blessed with the rhema of UR it put so many other things into perspective. If ET isn't true, then the vast end times mythological end times conspiracies also can't be true. If you understand your correct perspective then UR is just not compatable with end times myths. If you still think they do, then IMO you do not really understand the true ramifications of what UR means and changes in the doctrinal landscape. I must confess, I get surprised at how some of you still hold onto this nonsense. You don't need to be aware of what all the symbols mean to be successful as a disciple as the main thing to concentrate on is the chastisements and corrections of our Father who is trying to put our old man, our carnal nature to death. Anything that distracts from that is a red-herring. We trust our Father to lead us and guide us into all truth, but we don't learn it all at once. We grow into it. I don't need to know everything now...I need to learn what he is trying to teach me NOW. Not lessons for a path I haven't walked yet.
Here's an article on the symbolism of Revelations. Part 1 of a 4 part series. I hope it helps clarify things.
http://www.remnantbiblestudies.com/article9_lake_of_fire_pt1.html
:banana: :banana: :banana:
With all the diversity of perspective on this site I think to generalize what "most of you" believe is pretty presumptious. Maybe arrogant even. Sorry, but that's how I feel.
I don't have to presume it. I just need to read the posts in general and the weird stuff comes tumbling out. Nephalim, beast or anti-christ, one world government, general conspiracy, end times tales. I've seen you name on some of those threads. Does that make me presumptuous? UR is such a massively pivotal doctrinal correction that is is like a large gravity pool. It affects the other things around it. Including all that we believe. It changes everything.
That is my point. Perhaps you could focus on that point instead of looking for nonexistent slights.
Quote from: watchman1706 on July 15, 2014, 02:43:25 AM
No, but the process certainly did. And like you said, it did take study, but my brain juices started flowing and as I talked it out with fellow believers, it did fall into place. What I said had nothing to do with preterism. I am not a follower of that line of thinking. Nor am I a follower of any 'ism'. But the light switch should have flicked on and brought light to other places.
Fair enough, I agree. When I believed in UR, I mistakenly thought there was nothing else to know. Boy was I wrong it was really just the beginning of the journey
Quote from: Seth on July 15, 2014, 02:57:22 AM
Quote from: watchman1706 on July 15, 2014, 02:43:25 AM
No, but the process certainly did. And like you said, it did take study, but my brain juices started flowing and as I talked it out with fellow believers, it did fall into place. What I said had nothing to do with preterism. I am not a follower of that line of thinking. Nor am I a follower of any 'ism'. But the light switch should have flicked on and brought light to other places.
Fair enough, I agree. When I believed in UR, I mistakenly thought there was nothing else to know. Boy was I wrong it was really just the beginning of the journey
You are absolutely right. But it is a great start. I will restate something. If you had a good grounding in the word before UR then UR should bring great understanding. If you were not a student then you still have to plow the field
Marie-Glen,
You are right. Words can have different meanings, but what defines that? Context! In what context was the word used? Not just in the grammar, but what did it mean also in the context of the language of the day it was written in? How did the people think and what affected what they thought? It is my opinion that 'symbol' is correct in this context, especially in a book of symbols. And the fact that much of the writings had to be coded as well due to the political ramifications of the day. You could be killed for writing clearly in that time. Very oppressive and pessamistic times under the tyranny of Rome. Hence the use of appocryphal language being so prevelent in that time. The other main context to remember is that it is "the revelation of Jesus Christ" That is the true focus. So that adds a more defined lense to understanding revelation. The subject is Jesus Christ. The interpretations need to reflect this. It is more than just picking out one possible meaning that we like more than others. :2c:
In my previous post, I stated that Revelation started out with a grand introduction to the messages to the Churches and that the rest of Revelation should be the details of that Revelation.
(burp) Someone has given me some Light, that may not be the case.
Rev 1:19 Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;
We know that John testified in his Gospel, that which thou hast seen. and in Revelation 2 and 3 are the letters to the churches, the things which are (even to this present day). Which leaves the things which shall be hereafter.
Rev 4:1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.
There is an order of business that still needs to be resolved. Israel must still be judged. I think that is where the scrolls are opened (the ones sealed in Daniel's day). Jesus needs to clean house and bring all of Israel back so He can be there earthly King.
Included in the 144,000
Judah (earth)
Not included in the 144,000
Ephraim (rivers and foundations of waters/Nile river delta/Egypt/world)
Dan (Seas) [interesting link on Dan:http://www.hope-of-israel.org/i000035a.htm (http://www.hope-of-israel.org/i000035a.htm)
Some math:
1/3 of Stars, Moon, Son, etc.
Time,Times and 1/2 time (x)(x)(x/2)=3x/2; x=2/3
1/3 + 2/3 = 1 Any significance or tie-ins with this? Is maybe the time directly correlated with Judah, or Ephraim and Dan?
What first caught my attention was the 10 lost tribes of Israel and the 10 kings on the 7 horns of the Beast.
"That which was, and is not, but yet is". Israel was a nation. At the writing of Revelation ~90 AD (preterist accepted) is not. And yet is, as all 12 tribes where dispersed throughout the world.
Just thinking outside the box. Any thoughts?
Quote from: Seth on July 14, 2014, 10:28:27 PM
I agree that it could mean those things but I think it could also be exclusively spiritual as well. My whole point is that we should throw out all rules such as the church has created. It could be that one symbol over here represents an outward thing, and a symbol over there an inward thing, and yet again a symbol over there, both.
I heard a Christian radio guy say that we must interpret everything in the Bible literally, unless it's obviously a metaphor. I thought, why? Who made that rule up, and are we certain that God is abiding by it at all times?
Your suggestion is just as, or even more dangerous as that of the 'radio guy'. I don't know which church rules you are referring to because they vary.
I see a lot of pick and chose and take the easy way out in the method you suggest. Nothing could be more perfect to create false doctrine. Just assume literal reading. When it gets hard or against what you assume it must mean just switch to spiritual.
I think my simple method is way better.
Everything is literal * (in the symbolic way I described in my previous post)
At the same time everything has a spiritual meaning. *
*=I don't rule out multiple. On the contrary, I expect multiple.
If I can't find those meanings I'm either too stupid to understand or just should keep studying.
Because the literal and spiritual are patterns of each other they can't contradict. That means the spiritual and literal interpretations must align. A safeguard against false doctrine.
Quote from: WhiteWings on July 15, 2014, 07:28:48 AM
Your suggestion is just as, or even more dangerous as that of the 'radio guy'. I don't know which church rules you are referring to because they vary.
I see a lot of pick and chose and take the easy way out in the method you suggest. Nothing could be more perfect to create false doctrine.
False doctrine can be created either way, WhiteWings. The bottom line is that God reveals truth, and no amount of rules, or lack thereof can guarantee success in analyzing scripture. When God creates a mystery, he pretty much safeguards it against man's formulas and only reveals it to whoever he wants.
That's why Paul's revelations were too hard for many of his brothers to swallow.
QuoteJust assume literal reading. When it gets hard or against what you assume it must mean just switch to spiritual.
There is no way to guarantee that method is correct, and the Bible does NOT verify or validate it. So your guess is still as good as mine in your approach. False doctrine has been created by this approach too.
Quote from: watchman1706 on July 15, 2014, 03:23:11 AM
Marie-Glen,
You are right. Words can have different meanings, but what defines that? Context! In what context was the word used? Not just in the grammar, but what did it mean also in the context of the language of the day it was written in? How did the people think and what affected what they thought? It is my opinion that 'symbol' is correct in this context, especially in a book of symbols. And the fact that much of the writings had to be coded as well due to the political ramifications of the day. You could be killed for writing clearly in that time. Very oppressive and pessamistic times under the tyranny of Rome. Hence the use of appocryphal language being so prevelent in that time. The other main context to remember is that it is "the revelation of Jesus Christ" That is the true focus. So that adds a more defined lense to understanding revelation. The subject is Jesus Christ. The interpretations need to reflect this. It is more than just picking out one possible meaning that we like more than others. :2c:
indicate 1) to direct attention to; to point to or point out; show 2)to be or give a sign token or indication of ; signify
signify 1) to be a sign or indication of (the rags signify the poverty) 2) to show or make known, as by sign, words, etc. :2c:
Trying to "teach" others doctrine from John's, apocalypse, a message from Jesus to the churches, can be a wrong approach to begin with. The revelation of John is purposely interpretive, and it's author, the Logos(written on His thigh, Word of God, Faithful and True) says repeatedly," Let the one who has ears to hear, hear."
So many people quote the injunction not to add to or take away from the words of the scroll, even as they do so themselves. The Holy Spirit is able to communicate the primary truths of the scroll..."You have no need that any man teach you, for you have an anointing that teaches you all things".
It is indisputably better to share from a more humble attitude of, "it seems to me", or "I believe" or "imo" than to treat the views of others with disrespect and trumpet our own views as rock solid perspectives.
Some things the scroll unveils are, imo....
Messiah Jesus(radiance of the Father's glory and express image of His nature) and Him as the one who weighs the reins and the hearts (eyes of fire, face like the sun shining in its strength).
The spiritual conditions of prototypical churches among whom elements of all the downfalls and strengths of local assemblies throughout the ages can be weighed
Pictures of spiritual reality in the age of the ecclessia- images that may hold layers of revelation that speak to various applications and times or be applicable through out the age
Pictures of world events yet to come, kingdoms to rise and fall, whether earthly kingdoms or spiritual principalities not always being clear.
Interestingly to me, there are at least three vivid descriptions of the second coming of Christ(Dake taught them as three seprate coming's, I think he was wrong about that)
If everyone was able to live in the 7 letters to the & churches, as they introduce the apocalypse of the mystery. Ther would be more common edification and agreement, and certainly less grandstanding and presumption. As we all stand together before the one whose eyes are as flames of fire, who tries the reigns and the hearts.
To introduce the unveiling walking among the Lampstands, and to close it with the Bride descending and the call, from the Spirit and the Bride, "Come, let all who thirst drink freely from the water of life"............. I would offer that there is an amazing opportunity to apprehend that which we were apprehended for and walk in union as children and sons and daughters of God in the midst of this perverse generation ;o)
I think the beast, the dragon, those who bear the number of his name, the image that speaks blasphemy from the holy place- on some level all these things speak to the carnal man, the snake eating it own self from the tail forward, the adversaries who imitate the truth, "suppressing the truth in unrighteousness".
It would be funny if in all our figuring and projecting we missed the message to "us" hidden in tapestry.
Religion, yuck :o)
:iagree: :gimmefive:
It has amazed me in this thread how many different points of view there are on Revelation. We all love mysteries (even mystery novels). Even though Revelation is a very serious matter, to me at least it is enjoyable digging for any truths we can find.
Likewise, Jesus also advised us to be on the lookout, so that day would not approach us as a thief in the night, and that we would be caught unaware.
To me it is just like driving into Dallas for the first time, from a distance you see the skyline, but as you get closer and get into the city, the perspective gets more in focus until you are finally there and you can actually see it. Some of the things I thought about Dallas and how it actually is were pretty different. For one, not everyone wore cowboy hats! :laugh:
Only revelation comes with a blessing
Rev 1:3 Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand. . :dsunny:
Quote from: saintwalee on July 15, 2014, 07:03:46 AM
In my previous post, I stated that Revelation started out with a grand introduction to the messages to the Churches and that the rest of Revelation should be the details of that Revelation.
..that sounds reasonable..
Quote from: saintwalee on July 15, 2014, 07:03:46 AM
(burp) Someone has given me some Light, that may not be the case.
oh! what'd I miss! :laughing7:
Quote from: saintwalee on July 15, 2014, 07:03:46 AM
Rev 1:19 Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;
We know that John testified in his Gospel, that which thou hast seen. and in Revelation 2 and 3 are the letters to the churches, the things which are (even to this present day). Which leaves the things which shall be hereafter.
Rev 4:1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.
...very interesting.. :Chinscratch:
Quote from: saintwalee on July 15, 2014, 07:03:46 AM
There is an order of business that still needs to be resolved. Israel must still be judged. I think that is where the scrolls are opened (the ones sealed in Daniel's day). Jesus needs to clean house and bring all of Israel back so He can be there earthly King.
I think
one facet of Israel is they are a microcosm of the world.. they went astray.. all did, for example..(?)
Quote from: saintwalee on July 15, 2014, 07:03:46 AM
Included in the 144,000
Judah (earth)
Not included in the 144,000
Ephraim (rivers and foundations of waters/Nile river delta/Egypt/world)
Dan (Seas) [interesting link on Dan:http://www.hope-of-israel.org/i000035a.htm (http://www.hope-of-israel.org/i000035a.htm)
this makes me think ten tribes not so lost after all.. (also were listed by Nehemiah after the dispersion and return..)
Quote from: saintwalee on July 15, 2014, 07:03:46 AM
Some math:
1/3 of Stars, Moon, Son, etc.
Time,Times and 1/2 time (x)(x)(x/2)=3x/2; x=2/3
1/3 + 2/3 = 1 Any significance or tie-ins with this? Is maybe the time directly correlated with Judah, or Ephraim and Dan?
What first caught my attention was the 10 lost tribes of Israel and the 10 kings on the 7 horns of the Beast.
"That which was, and is not, but yet is". Israel was a nation. At the writing of Revelation ~90 AD (preterist accepted) is not. And yet is, as all 12 tribes where dispersed throughout the world.
Just thinking outside the box. Any thoughts?
I love numbers and I think God makes use of them a lot.. 1/3 of sun, moon, stars (Joel's smoky day?).. of trees.. and sea / trade? mankind..
:Chinscratch:
the use of numbers which most intrigue me is in two places.. I won't much go into rev 12, where the numbers (3.5) follow a 2nd migration of the faith (imo) when the faith is given the two wings of an eagle to
sail fly to a new place.. and then kept safe from the face of the dragon/serpent for 3.5.. here I think of it as 3.5 modern divisions, aka, centuries.. after which a flood of vomit is released after the faith in an effort to wash it off the earth, but the earth opens its mouth - drought? LUKE 23:38,31(?)
The second, which really catches my eye is at the end of the book of Daniel - Dan 12:11,12
..which says (paraphrased) - verse 11 - from the time the (place of?) daily sacrifice (prayers,etc?) is taken away, some versions refer to removed.. and the abomination which makes desolate is set up (amplified Bible calls this the 666 of Rev 13) will be 1,290 days - or that is 3.5 (Hebrew) years and an additional month (a Hebrew leap month?)
verse 12 - Happy is the one who waits and come to (makes it to?) 45 days later..
[you did say you love a mystery!]
when I read those verses, I think, what happy event occurs on day 1335 after the daily sacrifice is taken away? And occurs on day 45 of 666?
I've heard it interpreted as years, but it's hard for a person to wait and come to that many years..
Here's what I think is a cross reference to the daily sacrifice (place of?) being taken away/removed, which wasn't shown to me by the Holy Spirit but by another poster years ago, in a 'webtv' discussion group--
(Mt 24:1,2) "Then Jesus went out and departed from the temple, and His disciples came up to show Him the buildings of the temple. And Jesus said to them, "Do you not see
aLL these things? Assuredly, I say to you,
not one stone shall be left here upon another,
that shall not be thrown down."
Does it suggest anything to you? these three verses?? I can't help wondering if another will see this as I do..
Quote from: saintwalee on July 16, 2014, 05:47:28 AM
:iagree: :gimmefive:
It has amazed me in this thread how many different points of view there are on Revelation.
It's always amazed me how many since first reading it.. but even more so since attempting to discuss it..
Myself, I have always assumed and perceived it as the collapse of man's system and replaced with God's system, paradise.. Not being overly fond of man's system and its inequity, famines, etc, I have taken that as (ultimately) good news..
That it correlates to inner collapse of one's towers and castles in the air, seems logical too, though not only..
I am curious as to what the view is otherwise, as to what the book is saying.. Is it the idea that what is written has already occurred?
Or is it that it is only referring to inner and spiritual things? (But with some things viewed as world events, such as "behold I make all things new"..?)
[I wonder how I would go about becoming a speaker to churches on the Book of Rev and Bible prophecy.. tho I may be getting too old for that! But how great it would be to speak freely on it.. or to even just pass on what I believe the HS during my hermit years showed me.]
:icon_jokercolor: :Peace2: