Beast not the AntiChrist

[marie glen]

Surely to do so has concrete results in the heart, mind and psyche, but also in the world.. Was Israel's carrying away to Babylon metaphor only? Why now is Bible prophecy merely metaphor? (And for things already written!)
    :Chinscratch: (puzzlement :)

I actually don't believe that Revelation is written in the typical form as the OT prophecies. Whereas many of the images are from the OT they aren't written the same way. Revelation concerns various images that John saw. What they could mean is anyone's guess according to how they read the book. The prophets level certain specific predictions about Israel, whereas I don't see that kind of thing as much in Revelation. It could very well be that the OT prophecies have been fulfilled outwardly, and revelation is bringing them into the internal realm, spiritually.

That's interesting.. thanks for replying.. I guess I'm pretty convinced there is concrete (world referencing) meaning behind and to the visions given to John..

Of course I agree the strongest influence upon mankind since Eve ate from the forbidden tree, etc, is innate imperfection, the result..

..right now what I am trying to most pass on to whomever may listen, is when we see limited atomic/thermo-nuclear warfare is when things/events/pressures in the world will escalate, a pause having ended (a pause of thermo-nuclear - man's splitting of the atom - warfare-Rev 6:12-the seals described as a blend of what they are at beginning{13:13 carried out by an office} and what they are at full maturity/gallop/progression; which blend works as a lock on the vision; the pause Rev 7:1 - but believe me, I'm used to folks  not seeing it..
       :smile: :hiya: (I'd like to see believers able to pass on the vision to our kids and grand kids that some may avoid the "ten days tribulation" (great) of rev 20:4d, avoidance a blessing, imo, for those who "hear and heed")

[Seth]

That's interesting.. thanks for replying.. I guess I'm pretty convinced there is concrete (world referencing) meaning behind and to the visions given to John..

I used to look at it the same way. But then I saw that there is really no rules like that. The Bible does not demand such a view. But I always used to believe that there was because people told me so.

If I take this:

Jeremiah 25
11 And this whole land shall be a desolation, and an astonishment; and these nations shall serve the king of Babylon seventy years.

There is a literal/outward fulfillment and and a spiritual meaning, or fulfillment. But here is the catch. I don't have to interpret a metaphor there. It's plain spoken. Comparing to:

Revelation 13
1 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.

In order to come to an outward meaning for this, I MUST employ a metaphor. If not, the literal meaning of this is that there is a literal beast with seven heads and ten horns hanging around heaven. So, in order to come to a concrete interpretation, I must do something unlike I did with Jeremiah, and interpret a metaphor.

Both you and I are interpreting metaphors, and there is no guarantee that one interpretation MUST be outwardly. There's no rule.

but believe me, I'm used to folks  not seeing it

Ok, but I don't know why. Hal Lindsay has been talking about this stuff for years, to millions of people who agree with him and see it the same way he does. Same with Jack Van Impe and Rexella, and John Hagee. They've written many books about it. The nuclear stuff, the Soviets (now it's the terrorists, then Russia again), Lebanon, Obama, the Pope etc etc etc...The Left Behind series is one of the most popular books in Christendom uses the same approach to Revelation.

In fact, I grew up with those interpretations. And I am not exactly saying they are wrong. But I no longer insist on an outward interpretation of a metaphor as though it MUST be that way. I remember as a small child being instilled with nothing but dread whenever our preachers attempted to interpret the OT and Revelation. I will not be teaching my daughter those things. Now, I simply see another possibility, and alternate approach to the scripture.

[marie glen]

Hal Lindsay has been talking about this stuff for years, to millions of people who agree with him and see it the same way he does. Same with Jack Van Impe and Rexella, and John Hagee. They've written many books about it. The nuclear stuff, the Soviets (now it's the terrorists, then Russia again), Lebanon, Obama, the Pope etc etc etc...The Left Behind series is one of the most popular books in Christendom uses the same approach to Revelation.

In fact, I grew up with those interpretations. And I am not exactly saying they are wrong. But I no longer insist on an outward interpretation of a metaphor as though it MUST be that way. I remember as a small child being instilled with nothing but dread whenever our preachers attempted to interpret the OT and Revelation. I will not be teaching my daughter those things. Now, I simply see another possibility, and alternate approach to the scripture.

..I can't even read or listen to that stuff... but am convinced there is a fixed meaning concerning the world of man, the conclusion of what began in Eden at the fall, and how man's world is built on sand..

[saintwalee]

Years ago I fellowshipped at a Calvary Chapel and they did extensive study on Revelation, from a dispensational view.

They taught that most of Revelation is about Israel, interpreting the rapture of the church with John being taken up to heaven in Rev 4 and not "returning" until chapter 21. I never really "bought" that. Why would a book start out in it's first chapter expressly stating that the message was to the churches, and then only have two chapters on it?

This thread has taken on a somewhat different line of thought than originally presented, but I see the Holy Spirit working through that.

If we consider that the Revelation is about the Revelation of Jesus Christ unto the Churches, then I guess we better focus on that, as apposed to focusing on worldly events. So what is being revealed to the Church. We already know the revelation that Jesus was God's son sent unto us and that he died in atonement for our sins and was raised again to be our mediator. So all of that is already revealed in the Gospels and in the letters. (what was?)

So what is left? The epistles talked greatly about becoming a new creation, shedding off the old self, that of the anti-christ (those denying the Son and the Father), that salvation is universal. (what is?)

We see the message unto the Angels of the Churches (why not directly to the churches?). The message is of hearing, admonishment, chastisement, overcoming and promises of rewards. So then I would think that the scroll being opened up, in dramatic fashion with the breaking of the seven seals, would be the detail of the hearing, admonishment, chastisement, overcoming and promises. What seven things sealed them; wouldn't it be the opposite of what the unsealing is?

We see that Daniel was to seal up those things? What things? What happened in Babylon? Weren't the Jews and the Levites, the law and the prophets, held captive in Babylon? Is that maybe representative of mankind being held in bondage by the law, but with the hope of the prophets? Does Shadrak,Meshek and Abednigo (sp?) coming through the fire maybe represent the purging of sins? If so, then the lamb opening up the seals could represent mankind being loosed from the commandments and its judgment by His works? This would definitely be a message to the church, those things that "have been" from John's perspective. That being the general sealing and unsealing of the seals, what would be the detail of those seals?

And upon all the seals being opened, would we then not hear in further detail the message to the church and the revelation of Jesus Christ. So we should look for what represents the admonishments, the chastisements, the overcoming and the promises for the church and also the revelation of Jesus Christ.

Is that portrayed throughout the rest of revelation, from chapter 4 through 22? I can definitely see the final victory, revelation in the last two chapters of Christ and the Church, so then what about the meat, the stuff in the middle? What is being symbolized and how does it relate to the church? What significance to the church is the smiting of 1/3 of the Sun and moon? What is symbolically being represented by the seas, the rivers, the green grass, the grass, the trees, the beast, the lamb with two horns, the trumpets, the clouds...? All in regard to Christ and the Church?

I would think that all the in-between stuff is about the Church, the body of Christ. It is his message to us on what we are to be doing, growing unto perfection and being the light unto the world.

So let's take a look at that? What are we being admonished to do? What are we doing right? What do we need improvement on? What do we need to overcome?

Jesus broke us free from the bondage of sin, and has given his Church the power to be priests and kings! I think revelation is telling us how to do that.

Why the message to the Angel of the Churches?
Angels are messengers:
Rom_10:15  And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!

Oh how we have been deceived! Oh how Satan misdirected our great commission and turned the truth into a lie!

Rev_22:12  And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. This is the end, this is the grand finally. We are his reward, and he is our reward! (is to come) :dsunny:

I know regurgitating is not pleasant, but it looks like I need to get rid of my false beliefs about Revelation!

[marie glen]

I agree with some of that, but logically, it began with a world and planet... and mankind.. and results. Besides, I believe I can see what the metaphors mean.. in revelation imo I can see

the Mayflower,

modern man's splitting of the atom (fire over hiroshima and nagasaki) and the pause of that splitting as warfare,

"that which prevents being removed" (prevents man's dream of attaining world peace / paradise w/o God

the turning of western civilization on its ear by man's stronghold of the theory of evolution

world government..

the devouring of (extreme) capitalism by (extreme) socialism

and Rev 16:14-15-16 as Israel surrounded by armies and Jesus' literal return
:smile:

P.S - the birth of Jesus upon Earth, the fall of Lucifer.. perhaps more.. the collapse of man's empire, which logically (imo) cannot be avoided..

P.S.S - the triumphal gospel marching through the centuries, war given a long sword, inequity of man's world and systems, the black death,etc and mass graves.. ecological woes.. final thermo-nuclear (cross references - "the elements will melt with a fierce heat" "the earth will rock to and fro" "a new heavens and a new earth wherein righteousness" (and rightness?) "is to dwell"

a literal paradise restored to Earth and now un-breakable because all will fully know and understand good from evil, life from death, building on rock from building on sand..

[Seth]

This thread has taken on a somewhat different line of thought than originally presented, but I see the Holy Spirit working through that.

Yeah, because for me, it gets at the question of what the heck is the beast and the anti-christ to begin with. I agree they are not the same, but may also be one. You are not Jesus Christ, but he considers you part of his body. So, the two are one. What if it's the same for the beast and anti-christ and satan, the dragon etc etc. What if they are all part of one body themselves?

If we consider that the Revelation is about the Revelation of Jesus Christ unto the Churches, then I guess we better focus on that, as apposed to focusing on worldly events.

I don't mean to dismiss Marie's view out of hand. My whole thing is this: I don't want to insist on a certain formula for interpretation. There might be things in Revelation that speak to worldly events, and other images might speak wholly to internal things. I don't think there is necessarily a "key to Revelation" in the sense of a dependable formula. If there were, then we could figure it all out without God revealing it. We would just need to plug in the right scriptures and the answer comes out nice and tidy.

Anyway, my personal view of what Revelation is talking about, I believe (personally) could be summarized by this scripture:

Matthew 1:21
She will give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus, because he will save his people from their sins.

This is what I believe Revelation is talking about. Worldly events surely could play into that, but I think at the end of the day, the whole book of Revelation is about the process of Jesus saving his people from sin, from the elect all the way to the ends of the earth.

1) That's what Jesus came to do
2) That's how he got his name (Jesus means God saves)
3) It's the Revelation of Jesus Christ

So it seems to me that the Revelation of Jesus Christ is all about his mission on earth, why he was sent, his methods and tactics to get the job done, and the results.

[marie glen]

This thread has taken on a somewhat different line of thought than originally presented, but I see the Holy Spirit working through that.

Yeah, because for me, it gets at the question of what the heck is the beast and the anti-christ to begin with. I agree they are not the same, but may also be one. You are not Jesus Christ, but he considers you part of his body. So, the two are one. What if it's the same for the beast and anti-christ and satan, the dragon etc etc. What if they are all part of one body themselves?

If we consider that the Revelation is about the Revelation of Jesus Christ unto the Churches, then I guess we better focus on that, as apposed to focusing on worldly events.

I don't mean to dismiss Marie's view out of hand. My whole thing is this: I don't want to insist on a certain formula for interpretation. There might be things in Revelation that speak to worldly events, and other images might speak wholly to internal things. I don't think there is necessarily a "key to Revelation" in the sense of a dependable formula. If there were, then we could figure it all out without God revealing it. We would just need to plug in the right scriptures and the answer comes out nice and tidy.

Anyway, my personal view of what Revelation is talking about, I believe (personally) could be summarized by this scripture:

Matthew 1:21
She will give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus, because he will save his people from their sins.

This is what I believe Revelation is talking about. Worldly events surely could play into that, but I think at the end of the day, the whole book of Revelation is about the process of Jesus saving his people from sin, from the elect all the way to the ends of the earth.

1) That's what Jesus came to do
2) That's how he got his name (Jesus means God saves)
3) It's the Revelation of Jesus Christ

So it seems to me that the Revelation of Jesus Christ is all about his mission on earth, why he was sent, his methods and tactics to get the job done, and the results.

That's a nice post, Seth, thanks.. of course i agree with the story all being Jesus, but to me, also, is "the wages of sin is death" and to me, this refers also to the world, man's world..

I do believe there are at least two keys :smile: which only the Holy Spirit can give which open specific locks on the vision..

I'm pretty much a spiritual hermit, not taught doctrines.. not even U.R...

..beasts in Daniel were, imo, empires of men.. with a direct cross reference between Daniel 7:19,20 with Rev 13:1 (imo :smile: )

[saintwalee]

After I posted, a few more thoughts came to mind. This is a three step process, so to speak.

What happened in Genesis in the Garden of Edan at the tree of knowledge of good and evil? The serpent did two tremendous things. One, he made Adam and Eve sin, thereby rendering their relationship with God, but also he took control of the Earth! It has been his ever since then, until...

Jesus came to get it back!

REPENT, for the Kingdom of Heaven is at hand. This is not a call stop sinning. This is a call to come back into the Kingdom of God. Repent literally is "to bring back in". Mankind has been in Satan's kingdom, but Jesus has come to get his children back into His Kingdom (parable of lost sheep).

How is Jesus doing this? I believe he has to equip his army. First he has to empower them, and by destroying the power of sin, setting the captives free. But then the army has to take over the enemy. So the soldiers have to be trained; that is where we learn to overcome our sinful nature (this is what I believe Seth is professing), and finally, we will be ready to battle, to be conquerers.

The greatest victories are not won on the battle field, but in the hearts and minds of the people. Satan did exactly that in the Garden of Eden, he gave Eve and Adam new knowledge, and that knowledge captured them into his kingdom.

The war will be won in the same manner, by the changing of knowledge in the hearts and minds of all people. Satan's kingdom will fall from within.

No, I think it is much more that just being saved from sin and one day sitting in the clouds playing harps. The battlefield is within ourselves, as a microcosim, but Jesus' victory will be global, He will get his Kingdom back!

[marie glen]

The war will be won in the same manner, by the changing of knowledge in the hearts and minds of all people. Satan's kingdom will fall from within.

No, I think it is much more that just being saved from sin and one day sitting in the clouds playing harps. The battlefield is within ourselves, as a microcosim, but Jesus' victory will be global, He will get his Kingdom back!

I think I view this a tiny way differently perhaps, in that I believe the fall was part of God's plan all along.. It's my belief He could see all possibilities from 'the beginning' and has chosen all things just as He has done them so that the best possibility would be brought about.. Why wait and only create the universe and man and woman not only after the first bound to occur rebel thought occurred but after it was matured into full blown sedition and trickery? I think bound-to-occur rebel thought as with thinking ability (endowed) comes the ability sooner or later, to make choices.. somewhere, sometime, someone was bound to think "say, do we hAve to do everything God's way?"

You see the dilemma/paradox? once one chooses anything other than God, who is life itself (surely?) and also perfection, they become imperfect, the opposite of life. I think all would wander from perfection sooner or later, so why not engineer it so this unavoidable lesson and journey is taken by all, at once? Unavoidable, I believe, that is, if there's to be rational creatures.

And since God is life, He lives through, suffers and experiences all sufferings and indignations which ever occur! why would He put Himself through all that? Perhaps because what He's creating is not an ant farm or robots or a universe of only flora and fauna, but His own family and an eternal un-breakable paradise.. Unbreakable for aLL will fully understand good from evil which is also life from death..

Why are not all "chosen" to come to the faith in this lifetime? perhaps because a drama, even a truth-proving drama, needs more than one character (to be convincing). And what is said to be the best teacher? Imo, He is writing His law / the full understanding of good from evil upon every heart, mind and psyche. And the Book of Revelation, to me, logically, is the 'end' of the story, the conclusion, and the proof that what is built on sand and not the rock, can never stand. And to wander from God/Life can only ever result in collapse in a self destructive wisp of smoke (which of course God will have fully demonstrated, but prevented our individual destruction!! O what a wise God we serve!!!) But which smoke shall rise up eternally, in that it will never be forgotten... this great lesson He is teaching..

..this is why, imo, the languages were confused at Tower Babel "look what man does, soon nothing will be impossible to them for they are one" ending all things (in collapse) way too soon.. And then too, where would you and I be, and so many more? We wouldn't. But now, the world again is becoming one..
    :smile: God bless!

[saintwalee]

 :iagree:

I absolutely agree this is all God's plan and that nothing goes off script!

This is all for raising His children with His qualities.

But to what end? Just speculating here, but is it possible that we are to become ministering spirits elsewhere in His realm. Jesus said, "in my father's house are many mansions".

This all could just be the school for things beyond our imagination!

[Seth]

I believe we will be ministering spirits in this realm in that God is going to use his elect to bring everyone else in. That's what I believe this waiting for Christ to reveal the sons of God to the world is all about.

[saintwalee]

 :iagree:
Amen to that!

[eaglesway]

I believe we will be ministering spirits in this realm in that God is going to use his elect to bring everyone else in. That's what I believe this waiting for Christ to reveal the sons of God to the world is all about.

Yup!

[watchman1706]

Seth's Quote; "I think Revelation is a great test. Who do we point at other than ourselves?"

Maybe I'm missing your point friend.

But I believe there is a literal aspect as well, that will be played out in the theater of Earth.

My own view on Revelation is that I doubt there is a literal aspect. For example, if I take Revelation 19, where the one who sits on the white horse strikes down all the earth with the sword in his mouth. Jesus already said that if anyone does not believe in him, he will not judge them, but his words will judge them.

I don't believe that Jesus will literally use a sword to kill people. I believe it's symbolic. In fact, if we are talking about a LITERAL beast, then we can't appeal to symbolism at all, because then, it's not literal anymore.

So the question becomes, what is it symbolic of? One common thread I always see is that nobody thinks it's themselves. It's always the Romans, or the Catholics, or the Protestants, or the Jews, or America, or Russia, and on and on. But one common thread among all the theories is this: it's always someone else.

I can't claim to have the answer, but one thing I do know is that God loves a good surprise. And what if we found out that the beast is within us?

A really good read on this subject can be found here:

- Who is the Beast? by L. Ray Smith
- The Beast Within by L. Ray Smith

I believe symbols and metaphor are used in Bible prophecy, but strongly disbelieve that Bible prophecy itself is metaphor

...especially not as metaphor for what is clearly and plainly written in other books of the Bible..

Man's empires are built on sand.. Revelation, the unveiling (to me) seems most logical to be the culmination of history, the 'end' of the story so to speak.. The results and outcome which unveils and clearly shows to all, once and for all eternity, the truth that one cannot wander from God who is Life itself..

Surely to do so has concrete results in the heart, mind and psyche, but also in the world.. Was Israel's carrying away to Babylon metaphor only? Why now is Bible prophecy merely metaphor? (And for things already written!)
    :Chinscratch: (puzzlement :)

The entire book of revelations is symbolism. It says so at the beginning of chapter 1.

Rev 1:1  The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified (symbilosed) it by his angel unto his servant John:

Apochraphal symbolic writing was the common style in the day with all the events of the day. You only get in trouble when you try to force the writings to conform to a literal current event meaning.

It is the revelation of Jesus Christ...not a beast or an anti-christ. Also please note the "shortly come to pass"...not in 2000 years.


:banana: :banana: :banana:

[saintwalee]

So what are the symbols and what do they represent?

Rev 17:1  And there came one of the seven angels which had the seven vials, and talked with me, saying unto me, Come hither; I will shew unto thee the judgment of the great whore that sitteth upon many waters:

Rev 17:15  And he saith unto me, The waters which thou sawest, where the whore sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues.

So, the many waters is answered.

What about the great whore? The Sun? The moon? The Stars?... As I previously posted, what do these represent? Please post your thoughts on the symbols and what they mean. The many waters was easy, it plainly told us, but some aren't explained.

[marie glen]

So what are the symbols and what do they represent?

hi! I'll respond to your posts, but first:

I do agree with you about WHO the Rev 13:1 beast will be.. the one with ten horns..

or that is, I think we are both right!

It's was right there in front of my nose, but I forgot! -- infiltration.. (which is in progress even now).

"where the dead body is, there the vultures will be" dead, here, as w/o God

The office which carried out 13:13 (in 1945--dah? that's not toward you! It's just SO obvious and so not seen)

And the world body which become the dream of mankind (politics, the dove/peace w/o God) - the world body which the office which did 13:13 will give strength to (verse 13:?)

But, either dream, world peace or a world caliphate, cannot be attained until "he who prevents is taken away" (rev 20:4d)

I believe the world body (Rev 13:1; 17:12) to be the 'resurrection' of the League of Nations (Strong's #1285). And its formation is interesting (Lucifer as angel of light; formed by Lucifer Trust, renamed Lucis Trust)

The vulture (Islam) and the Dove (modern western politics) whether knowingly or unknowingly, will work together to attain world reach (imo :smile: )

Of interest - Ps 72:9 "The desert nomads shall bow before him; his enemies shall fall face downward in the dust."

& From Dan chapter 2(31-34;39-40)
"O king, you saw a huge and powerful statue of a man, shining brilliantly, frightening and terrible. 32 The head of the statue was made of purest gold, its chest and arms were of silver, its belly and thighs of brass, 33 its legs of iron, its feet part iron and part clay. 34 But as you watched, a Rock was cut from the mountainside by supernatural means. It came hurtling toward the statue and crushed the feet of iron and clay, smashing them to bits."

"39 "But after your kingdom" (gold/babylon) "has come to an end, another world power will arise to take your place. This empire will be inferior to yours. And after that kingdom has fallen, yet a third great power*—represented by the bronze belly of the statue—will rise to rule the world." (Greece) 40 Following it, the fourth kingdom will be strong as iron—smashing, bruising, and conquering." (Rome)

19 Then I asked about the fourth beast, the one so brutal and shocking, with its iron" (Roman) "teeth" (columns) "and bronze" (Greek) "claws" (philosophy?) "that tore men apart and stamped others to death with its feet." (Roman/Graeco)[/i] ("what the iron doesn't destroy the bronze does")

From Dan 7:19,7
7 Then, as I watched in my dream, a fourth animal rose up out of the ocean, too dreadful to describe and incredibly strong. It devoured some of its victims by tearing them apart with its huge iron teeth, and others it crushed beneath its feet. It was far more brutal and vicious than any of the other animals, and it had ten horns.
              :smile: :Peace2:

[saintwalee]

Did you see in the news that Germany sent a Delegation to Israel to broker peace?

[marie glen]

I think I did hear something about that.. Interesting..

[marie glen]

:iagree:

I absolutely agree this is all God's plan and that nothing goes off script!

This is all for raising His children with His qualities.

But to what end? Just speculating here, but is it possible that we are to become ministering spirits elsewhere in His realm. Jesus said, "in my father's house are many mansions".

This all could just be the school for things beyond our imagination!

I believe we will be ministering spirits in this realm in that God is going to use his elect to bring everyone else in. That's what I believe this waiting for Christ to reveal the sons of God to the world is all about.

I believe something like that too, I guess I think of the millenium as a time of learning and building/restoring and judgment day as lasting 500 years (has to do with the fall holy days and spaces between and they as prophecy of the 2nd advent of Jesus).. So I believe we will be 'aides' during the long, intense and difficult day of stringent review of all man's history.. Not a pretty story by any means..

After that? i agree! beyond our imaginings, even fondest!.. I believe even that every animal that ever lived will live again and of course all the people and this begins the filling of the universe..?
    :laugh2: just thinking out loud for a moment..

[watchman1706]

I have to admit, I find it a little weird that after most of you become adherents to UR, that the rest of your doctrinal leanings didn't change as you belief landscape changed. When I was blessed with the rhema of UR it put so many other things into perspective. If ET isn't true, then the vast end times mythological end times conspiracies also can't be true. If you understand your correct perspective then UR is just not compatable with end times myths. If you still think they do, then IMO you do not really understand the true ramifications of what UR means and changes in the doctrinal landscape. I must confess, I get surprised at how some of you still hold onto this nonsense. You don't need to be aware of what all the symbols mean to be successful as a disciple as the main thing to concentrate on is the chastisements and corrections of our Father who is trying to put our old man, our carnal nature to death. Anything that distracts from that is a red-herring. We trust our Father to lead us and guide us into all truth, but we don't learn it all at once. We grow into it. I don't need to know everything now...I need to learn what he is trying to teach me NOW. Not lessons for a path I haven't walked yet.

Here's an article on the symbolism of Revelations. Part 1 of a 4 part series. I hope it helps clarify things.

http://www.remnantbiblestudies.com/article9_lake_of_fire_pt1.html

:banana: :banana: :banana:

[Seth]

If ET isn't true, then the vast end times mythological end times conspiracies also can't be true. If you understand your correct perspective then UR is just not compatable with end times myths.

The fact that ET isn't true does not automatically disprove other beliefs people have about the end times. I don't change my beliefs just because. I change them when I see if the scripture supports them or does not. That requires study and conversation with other believers.

[saintwalee]

Is the White Throne Judgement at the end of some age, or does it take place while we are actually living our lives?

2Co 5:10  For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

Seeing God is with us continually, he would be witnessing first hand everything we do. (I've always felt paranoid, like someone was watching!)

I do think that Revelation is about the body of Christ, but not that only. I truly believe the events are to be played out in the world theater as well. Actually are being played out.

[watchman1706]

If ET isn't true, then the vast end times mythological end times conspiracies also can't be true. If you understand your correct perspective then UR is just not compatable with end times myths.

The fact that ET isn't true does not automatically disprove other beliefs people have about the end times. I don't change my beliefs just because. I change them when I see if the scripture supports them or does not. That requires study and conversation with other believers.

It's not brain surgery Seth. What you already knew should have come into focus and new understanding when you started to understand UR. If one thing means this, then it should affect the other thing. Are you saying you never had the "AHA!" moments in your own doctrinal understanding? You seem to be a clever guy. I find it hard to believe that you didn't. UR and trinity and free will are at odds with each other scripturally. So is end times mythology. When the broom comes to the kitchen then it needs to be swept clean...You don't save the old dust and crumbs on the floor for later. If 'all' are to be reconciled then we don't look for paths of future potential destruction and non existent boogeymen.

[Seth]

You're saying that once you understand that ET is false, then suddenly you're supposed to understand EVERYTHING all at once? Everything doesn't just fall into place. It takes study and time and fellowship to understand how everything works together. Sorry I didn't have the instant day-one doctrinal fix that you did (that must have been one dramatic day), but I guess everyone is different.

Some people believe God will beat people forever, and others believe that God will still beat people, just not forever. I discovered that God isn't out to beat people at all. But it took time and digging and questioning to get that. It didn't just come with the UR territory, and I don't believe that preterism does either. Just because God isn't going to torment people forever isn't a guarantee of preterism as a way of interpreting Revelation.

[eaglesway]

I have to admit, I find it a little weird that after most of you become adherents to UR, that the rest of your doctrinal leanings didn't change as you belief landscape changed. When I was blessed with the rhema of UR it put so many other things into perspective. If ET isn't true, then the vast end times mythological end times conspiracies also can't be true. If you understand your correct perspective then UR is just not compatable with end times myths. If you still think they do, then IMO you do not really understand the true ramifications of what UR means and changes in the doctrinal landscape. I must confess, I get surprised at how some of you still hold onto this nonsense. You don't need to be aware of what all the symbols mean to be successful as a disciple as the main thing to concentrate on is the chastisements and corrections of our Father who is trying to put our old man, our carnal nature to death. Anything that distracts from that is a red-herring. We trust our Father to lead us and guide us into all truth, but we don't learn it all at once. We grow into it. I don't need to know everything now...I need to learn what he is trying to teach me NOW. Not lessons for a path I haven't walked yet.

Here's an article on the symbolism of Revelations. Part 1 of a 4 part series. I hope it helps clarify things.

http://www.remnantbiblestudies.com/article9_lake_of_fire_pt1.html

:banana: :banana: :banana:

With all the diversity of perspective on this site I think to generalize what "most of you" believe is pretty presumptious. Maybe arrogant even. Sorry, but that's how I feel.