Beast not the AntiChrist

[WhiteWings]

Is the White Throne Judgement at the end of some age, or does it take place while we are actually living our lives?

It's not even agreed upon what the White Throne actually is.  :laugh:

http://tentmaker.org/forum/lounge/great-white-throne-judgement-judgement-from-within/msg119683/#msg119683

[WhiteWings]

I do think that Revelation is about the body of Christ, but not that only. I truly believe the events are to be played out in the world theater as well. Actually are being played out.

I think if you would compile a list of all views that were ever written down by mankind you have perfect list of how things not gonna be  :banana:


I think His 2nd coming will be overlooked just as His 1st coming. The few that did see the first coming were basically hunted down for blasphemy and the ones that will see His second coming end up in an asylum.  :winkgrin:


So what will be the body of Christ? I would say it's about people who believe Him. Really believe in Him.
Just imagine Jesus arrives tomorrow and starts preaching. He will be called insane by atheists. Most believers will call Him the beast, false prophet or similar because He doesn't preach according to their doctrine. Miracles won't work either because most just assume He's the new David Copperfield or has satanic powers. Sounds a bit like 2000 years ago, doesn't it?


I'm really wondering what things will look like....

[marie glen]

The entire book of revelations is symbolism. It says so at the beginning of chapter 1.

      :hiya:  :smile:
Revelation 1:1-3 - Young's Literal Translation (YLT)

1 A revelation of Jesus Christ, that God gave to him, to shew to his servants what things it behoveth to come to pass quickly; and he did signify [it], having sent through his messenger to his servant John,

"signify" - the Greek = "semaino" = to indicate

2 who did testify the word of God, and the testimony of Jesus Christ, as many things also as he did see.

3 Happy is he who is reading, and those hearing, the words of the prophecy, and keeping the things written in it -- for the time is nigh!

It's been said this prophecy was about 70a.d but it was written in 90 a.d approx.. like death, apocalypse (collapse revealing error/untruth) is always nigh.. close & possible

Besides "shortly" is inserted by the translators and a closer rendering would be "which things it is binding to occur quickly"

Apochraphal symbolic writing was the common style in the day with all the events of the day. You only get in trouble when you try to force the writings to conform to a literal current event meaning.

So why the Book of Revelation at all? Since it simply repeats things written plainly elsewhere. And if that's true is just a way to waste believer's time? Also Daniel refers to prophecy being sealed for a time.. so our Lord using Apochraphal and symbolism makes a lot of sense.. but simply repeating what is already written elsewhere, doesn't to me, make sense at all..

"to show to His servants things which must come to pass"...

And I do believe the Lord had specific intent of what each symbol, etc means...

"watch" (watch and pray) - why write it and send it if it cannot or is not meant to be understood?

"to show to His servants things which must come to pass" - I hadn't taken note of the word "must" before.. :Chinscratch:
            :Peace2:

[marie glen]

I have to admit, I find it a little weird that after most of you become adherents to UR, that the rest of your doctrinal leanings didn't change as you belief landscape changed. When I was blessed with the rhema of UR it put so many other things into perspective. If ET isn't true, then the vast end times mythological end times conspiracies also can't be true. If you understand your correct perspective then UR is just not compatable with end times myths. If you still think they do, then IMO you do not really understand the true ramifications of what UR means and changes in the doctrinal landscape. I must confess, I get surprised at how some of you still hold onto this nonsense. You don't need to be aware of what all the symbols mean to be successful as a disciple as the main thing to concentrate on is the chastisements and corrections of our Father who is trying to put our old man, our carnal nature to death. Anything that distracts from that is a red-herring. We trust our Father to lead us and guide us into all truth, but we don't learn it all at once. We grow into it. I don't need to know everything now...I need to learn what he is trying to teach me NOW. Not lessons for a path I haven't walked yet.

Here's an article on the symbolism of Revelations. Part 1 of a 4 part series. I hope it helps clarify things.

http://www.remnantbiblestudies.com/article9_lake_of_fire_pt1.html

:banana: :banana: :banana:

repentence yes, and the further we grow, the more glaring our flaws.. yet it is not all and only about me, but sharing the Word with others.. "O what of the Watchman?!" "if he see the sword coming and not warn, I will require their blood at their hand"! And is there something wrong with seeing the 'story' (Bible) as a whole thing?? from fall (including of the world) and redemption (including the world).. Revelation is the peak.. I reject the idea it should be left out.. if I didn't feel I understood it, fine.. I would pray to do so..

"We trust our Father to lead us and guide us into all truth, but we don't learn it all at once. We grow into it. I don't need to know everything now."

I've been reading the Word for 35 years.. as surely many others have too, and yes, to me, saying something in God's Word is only metaphor, is not logical

Hebrews 6:1-3 New King James Version (NKJV)

6 Therefore, leaving the discussion of the elementary principles of Christ, let us go on to perfection, not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God, 2 of the doctrine of baptisms, of laying on of hands, of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment. 3 And this we will do if God permits.
         :smile: God bless!

P.S -

I have to admit, I find it a little weird that after most of you become adherents to UR, that the rest of your doctrinal leanings didn't change

Are you referring to the LOF as ppl being cast into? I would agree.. but that's the only adherence I'm seeing..

[marie glen]

I do think that Revelation is about the body of Christ, but not that only. I truly believe the events are to be played out in the world theater as well. Actually are being played out.

that seems logical to me.. other wise, it is an open ended thing..

I think if you would compile a list of all views that were ever written down by mankind you have perfect list of how things not gonna be  :banana:

The only thing I care about is what the Word says..

I think His 2nd coming will be overlooked just as His 1st coming. The few that did see the first coming were basically hunted down for blasphemy and the ones that will see His second coming end up in an asylum.  :winkgrin:


So what will be the body of Christ? I would say it's about people who believe Him. Really believe in Him.
Just imagine Jesus arrives tomorrow and starts preaching. He will be called insane by atheists. Most believers will call Him the beast, false prophet or similar because He doesn't preach according to their doctrine. Miracles won't work either because most just assume He's the new David Copperfield or has satanic powers. Sounds a bit like 2000 years ago, doesn't it?

I'm really wondering what things will look like....

..doesn't it say He returns and every eye will see Him?

"what will be the sign of your coming?" Mt 24, Lk 21, Mk 13

Matthew 24:29-31Young's Literal Translation (YLT)

29 `And immediately after the tribulation of those days, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from the heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken;

30 and then shall appear the sign of the Son of Man in the heaven; and then shall all the tribes of the earth smite the breast, and they shall see the Son of Man coming upon the clouds of the heaven, with power and much glory;
31 and he shall send his messengers with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his chosen from the four winds, from the ends of the heavens unto the ends thereof."

Zechariah 14:4 King James Version (KJV)

4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
see verse 3 + Rev 19:21

From Revelation 20 - Young's Literal Translation (YLT)

20 And I saw a messenger coming down out of the heaven, having the key of the abyss, and a great chain...

2 and he laid hold on the dragon, the old serpent, who is Devil and Adversary, and did bind him a thousand years,

3 and he cast him to the abyss, and did shut him up, and put a seal upon him, that he may not lead astray the nations any more, till the thousand years may be finished; and after these it behoveth him to be loosed a little time.

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given to them, and the souls of those who have been beheaded because of the testimony of Jesus, and because of the word of God, and who did not bow before the beast, nor his image, and did not receive the mark upon their forehead and upon their hand, and they did live and reign with Christ the thousand years;

5 and the rest of the dead did not live again till the thousand years may be finished; this [is] the first rising again.

6 Happy and holy [is] he who is having part in the first rising again; over these the second death hath not authority, but they shall be priests of God and of the Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

7 And when the thousand years may be finished, the Adversary shall be loosed out of his prison,

8 and he shall go forth to lead the nations astray, that are in the four corners of the earth -- Gog and Magog -- to gather them together to war, of whom the number [is] as the sand of the sea;

9 and they did go up over the breadth of the land, and did surround the camp of the saints, and the beloved city, and there came down fire from God out of the heaven, and devoured them;

10 and the Devil, who is leading them astray, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where [are] the beast and the false prophet" (imo institutions of men, no ppl thus far in LOF) "and they shall be tormented" (Strong's 928, from root 931 w/ sense of "going to the bottom") "day and night -- to the ages of the ages.

11 And I saw a great white throne, and Him who is sitting upon it, from whose face the earth and the heaven did flee away, and place was not found for them;

12 and I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and scrolls were opened, and another scroll was opened, which is that of the life, and the dead were judged out of the things written in the scrolls -- according to their works;[/u]"

(fall holy day-as prophecy of the 2nd peak of His 2nd advent? - DOA - from Lev 23:27-29 - "Also the tenth day of this seventh month shall be the Day of Atonement. It shall be a holy convocation for you; you shall afflict your souls.. for it is the Day of Atonement, to make atonement for you before the Lord your God. 29 ..any person who is not afflicted in soul on that same day shall be cut off from among his people."

Leviticus 25:9 - "Then you shall cause the trumpet of the Jubilee to sound ..on the Day of Atonement you shall make the trumpet to sound throughout all your land."

imo, spring holy days prophesied 1st advent and thus fall ones..?

"13 and the sea did give up those dead in it, and the death and the hades did give up the dead in them, and they were judged, each one according to their works;

Psalm 22:27 - "All the ends of the world shall remember and turn unto the Lord" (when?) "and all the families of the nations shall worship before thee."

Psalm 72:9,11 - "The desert nomads shall bow before him; his enemies shall fall face downward in the dust.. all kings shall fall down before him: all nations shall serve him.[/i]" When will this occur?

14 and" (then?) "the death and the hades were cast to the lake of the fire -- this [is] the second death;

15 and if (by then???) any one was not found written in the scroll of the life, he was cast to the lake of the fire.
  God bless..

[marie glen]

So what are the symbols and what do they represent?

Rev 17:1  And there came one of the seven angels which had the seven vials, and talked with me, saying unto me, Come hither; I will shew unto thee the judgment of the great whore that sitteth upon many waters:

the 7 vials Revelation says is the final wrath.. imo, final results/consequences.. which is what I believe the judgment of God is!! :HeartThrob: I believe they are concurrent and are thermal-nuclear (rev 6:12 described in ch 6(12-17) - the splitting of the atom, as a blend, what it is at its beginning/1st and what it is when fully matured/fully galloped or matured, if this one was riding a horse, that is! this description of the seals as a blend of its 1st and last is a lock on the vision, confusing it..
notice 7:1 a pause of this new fiery wind..(imo) and where I believe we are at right now.. til limited thermal-nuclear warfare will signify the opening of the 7th seal and thus moving on to the trumpets and escalation.
       

Rev 17:15  And he saith unto me, The waters which thou sawest, where the whore sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues.

So, the many waters is answered.

What about the great whore? The Sun? The moon? The Stars?... As I previously posted, what do these represent? Please post your thoughts on the symbols and what they mean. The many waters was easy, it plainly told us, but some aren't explained.

the sun and moon are darkened, literal.. from smokiness.. but the sun and "moon under her feet is symbolism for the faith, Israel gives birth to the manchild/Son of man / with twelve stars around her head, but after Christ is not devoured by the dragon via Herod and is later caught up to God and His throne, the woman, the faith is Christianity.. which 2 major migrations of.. -- rev ch 12-one of three inserts which work to confuse the vision along with one other 'lock'

"the stars.. are angels.." end of rev 1 - the dragon, that old serpent and adversary drew 1/3 of the stars to the earth.. (downward) - Rev ch 12

The Harlot, the city which enchants and beguiles, etc, on 7 hills/continents - the Greek - "harlot" = "pornos" Capitalism went pornos and corrupted the nations and will deserve her crash ("fallen! fallen!") and the falling of her towers "in the day all the towers fall" - Isaiah? Do many think man's towers (built on sand) will stand forever?? Rev 17 & 18 describe her.. she made the merchants wealthy, her forehead, all babble/untruth is cause of all slain on earth; the kings are in bed with her.. the merchants weep when she falls in one day.. see the list of her products and luxuries which she sold.. Rev 17 & 18.
     :smile:

I think of the rev characters as a pentagram (imo)
1-world beast/body (13:1; Dan 7:19,7)

2-an office which in the sight of man brought fire down [imo,upon hiroshima and nagasaki--(dah?!?not toward anyone, just a general feeling of mine:)]

3-the false prophet, white smocked with many modern miracles and marvels, and who has turned Christendom/western civilization on its ear, and also a great falling away/delusion.. a GReaT delusion, which we've yet to see the fulness of? it does prophecy and look once again to the stars..

4-$ity Babble on and on (rev chapters 17 & 18)

5-and her forehead (psyche) all babble/untruth

note how socialism will at last devour capitalism (the world beast/body of last hour (rev 17:12,16,17) with ten divisions?/kings/toes some iron(western/graco-roman/bronze-iron,see daniel2:31+ and 7:19,7) some clay/not western
           God bless..

sorry to write so much

[WhiteWings]

I do think that Revelation is about the body of Christ, but not that only. I truly believe the events are to be played out in the world theater as well. Actually are being played out.

that seems logical to me.. other wise, it is an open ended thing..

I think if you would compile a list of all views that were ever written down by mankind you have perfect list of how things not gonna be  :banana:

The only thing I care about is what the Word says..

You are missing my point. All people on that list care what the Word says.

I think His 2nd coming will be overlooked just as His 1st coming. The few that did see the first coming were basically hunted down for blasphemy and the ones that will see His second coming end up in an asylum.  :winkgrin:


So what will be the body of Christ? I would say it's about people who believe Him. Really believe in Him.
Just imagine Jesus arrives tomorrow and starts preaching. He will be called insane by atheists. Most believers will call Him the beast, false prophet or similar because He doesn't preach according to their doctrine. Miracles won't work either because most just assume He's the new David Copperfield or has satanic powers. Sounds a bit like 2000 years ago, doesn't it?

I'm really wondering what things will look like....

..doesn't it say He returns and every eye will see Him?

Just like it was very clear at His first coming with many prophesies pointing to Him.

[Seth]

So why the Book of Revelation at all? Since it simply repeats things written plainly elsewhere. And if that's true is just a way to waste believer's time?

Matthew 10:27
What I tell you in the dark, speak in the daylight; what is whispered in your ear, proclaim from the roofs.

Speaking plainly is a way to reveal what Christ says in the dark. The Book of Revelation is filled with symbols which are used to justify false doctrine. The plain spoken written things are useful to explain what Revelation is talking about, and same with the parables.

Why did Jesus speak in parables? Because "to them it was not given to know the mysteries of the kingdom, but for you it is given."

[jabcat]

"signify" - the Greek = "semaino" = to indicate

Although I believe the Rev is full of symbols (obviously) I believe that's a bit of misnomer that's often used regarding 'signify' = "everything in it is symbolic so it's all spiritual and there's NOTHING literal about it because it says so right at the beginning".  As you just pointed out, signify doesn't necessarily (or even primarily) mean 'symbol'.  It has other primary definitions besides symbol or symbolize. 

[Seth]

 :iagree:

[WhiteWings]

"signify" - the Greek = "semaino" = to indicate

Although I believe the Rev is full of symbols (obviously) I believe that's a bit of misnomer that's often used regarding 'signify' = "everything in it is symbolic so it's all spiritual and there's NOTHING literal about it because it says so right at the beginning".  As you just pointed out, signify doesn't necessarily (or even primarily) mean 'symbol'.  It has other primary definitions besides symbol or symbolize.

I think a large percentage of Revelation is symbolic. But for me that doesn't mean the same percentage is spiritual only.
A lamb is symbolic for Jesus. Both animal and the Man are very real.
The Temple was a pattern (symbol) of heaven. It really existed for centuries.
I think almost everything is literal in Revelation, but in a symbolic way.
So if Revelation would state, angry birds devour Iraq, it could symbolically mean American (eagle) bombers and fighter jets are on a warpath.
A symbolic beast could be  literal nation.

None of that all excludes spiritual parallels.

[Seth]

I agree that it could mean those things but I think it could also be exclusively spiritual as well. My whole point is that we should throw out all rules such as the church has created. It could be that one symbol over here represents an outward thing, and a symbol over there an inward thing, and yet again a symbol over there, both.

I heard a Christian radio guy say that we must interpret everything in the Bible literally, unless it's obviously a metaphor. I thought, why? Who made that rule up, and are we certain that God is abiding by it at all times?

[watchman1706]

You're saying that once you understand that ET is false, then suddenly you're supposed to understand EVERYTHING all at once? Everything doesn't just fall into place. It takes study and time and fellowship to understand how everything works together. Sorry I didn't have the instant day-one doctrinal fix that you did (that must have been one dramatic day), but I guess everyone is different.

Some people believe God will beat people forever, and others believe that God will still beat people, just not forever. I discovered that God isn't out to beat people at all. But it took time and digging and questioning to get that. It didn't just come with the UR territory, and I don't believe that preterism does either. Just because God isn't going to torment people forever isn't a guarantee of preterism as a way of interpreting Revelation.

No, but the process certainly did. And like you said, it did take study, but my brain juices started flowing and as I talked it out with fellow believers, it did fall into place. What I said had nothing to do with preterism. I am not a follower of that line of thinking. Nor am I a follower of any 'ism'. But the light switch should have flicked on and brought light to other places.

[watchman1706]

I have to admit, I find it a little weird that after most of you become adherents to UR, that the rest of your doctrinal leanings didn't change as you belief landscape changed. When I was blessed with the rhema of UR it put so many other things into perspective. If ET isn't true, then the vast end times mythological end times conspiracies also can't be true. If you understand your correct perspective then UR is just not compatable with end times myths. If you still think they do, then IMO you do not really understand the true ramifications of what UR means and changes in the doctrinal landscape. I must confess, I get surprised at how some of you still hold onto this nonsense. You don't need to be aware of what all the symbols mean to be successful as a disciple as the main thing to concentrate on is the chastisements and corrections of our Father who is trying to put our old man, our carnal nature to death. Anything that distracts from that is a red-herring. We trust our Father to lead us and guide us into all truth, but we don't learn it all at once. We grow into it. I don't need to know everything now...I need to learn what he is trying to teach me NOW. Not lessons for a path I haven't walked yet.

Here's an article on the symbolism of Revelations. Part 1 of a 4 part series. I hope it helps clarify things.

http://www.remnantbiblestudies.com/article9_lake_of_fire_pt1.html

:banana: :banana: :banana:

With all the diversity of perspective on this site I think to generalize what "most of you" believe is pretty presumptious. Maybe arrogant even. Sorry, but that's how I feel.

I don't have to presume it. I just need to read the posts in general and the weird stuff comes tumbling out. Nephalim, beast or anti-christ, one world government, general conspiracy, end times tales. I've seen you name on some of those threads. Does that make me presumptuous? UR is such a massively pivotal doctrinal correction that is is like a large gravity pool. It affects the other things around it. Including all that we believe. It changes everything.
That is my point. Perhaps you could focus on that point instead of looking for nonexistent slights.

[Seth]

No, but the process certainly did. And like you said, it did take study, but my brain juices started flowing and as I talked it out with fellow believers, it did fall into place. What I said had nothing to do with preterism. I am not a follower of that line of thinking. Nor am I a follower of any 'ism'. But the light switch should have flicked on and brought light to other places.

Fair enough, I agree. When I believed in UR, I mistakenly thought there was nothing else to know. Boy was I wrong it was really just the beginning of the journey

[watchman1706]

No, but the process certainly did. And like you said, it did take study, but my brain juices started flowing and as I talked it out with fellow believers, it did fall into place. What I said had nothing to do with preterism. I am not a follower of that line of thinking. Nor am I a follower of any 'ism'. But the light switch should have flicked on and brought light to other places.

Fair enough, I agree. When I believed in UR, I mistakenly thought there was nothing else to know. Boy was I wrong it was really just the beginning of the journey

You are absolutely right. But it is a great start. I will restate something. If you had a good grounding in the word before UR then UR should bring great understanding. If you were not a student then you still have to plow the field

[watchman1706]

Marie-Glen,
You are right. Words can have different meanings, but what defines that? Context! In what context was the word used? Not just in the grammar, but what did it mean also in the context of the language of the day it was written in? How did the people think and what affected what they thought? It is my opinion that 'symbol' is correct in this context, especially in a book of symbols. And the fact that much of the writings had to be coded as well due to the political ramifications of the day. You could be killed for writing clearly in that time. Very oppressive and pessamistic times under the tyranny of Rome. Hence the use of appocryphal language being so prevelent in that time. The other main context to remember is that it is "the revelation of Jesus Christ" That is the true focus. So that adds a more defined lense to understanding revelation. The subject is Jesus Christ. The interpretations need to reflect this. It is more than just picking out one possible meaning that we like more than others.  :2c:

[saintwalee]

In my previous post, I stated that Revelation started out with a grand introduction to the messages to the Churches and that the rest of Revelation should be the details of that Revelation.

(burp) Someone has given me some Light, that may not be the case.

Rev 1:19  Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;

We know that John testified in his Gospel, that which thou hast seen. and in Revelation 2 and 3 are the letters to the churches, the things which are (even to this present day). Which leaves the things which shall be hereafter.

Rev 4:1  After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.

There is an order of business that still needs to be resolved. Israel must still be judged. I think that is where the scrolls are opened (the ones sealed in Daniel's day). Jesus needs to clean house and bring all of Israel back so He can be there earthly King.

Included in the 144,000
Judah (earth)

Not included in the 144,000
Ephraim (rivers and foundations of waters/Nile river delta/Egypt/world)
Dan (Seas) [interesting link on Dan:http://www.hope-of-israel.org/i000035a.htm

Some math:
1/3 of Stars, Moon, Son, etc.
Time,Times and 1/2 time (x)(x)(x/2)=3x/2; x=2/3
1/3 + 2/3 = 1 Any significance or tie-ins with this? Is maybe the time directly correlated with Judah, or Ephraim and Dan?

What first caught my attention was the 10 lost tribes of Israel and the 10 kings on the 7 horns of the Beast.

"That which was, and is not, but yet is". Israel was a nation. At the writing of Revelation ~90 AD (preterist accepted) is not. And yet is, as all 12 tribes where dispersed throughout the world.

Just thinking outside the box. Any thoughts?

[WhiteWings]

I agree that it could mean those things but I think it could also be exclusively spiritual as well. My whole point is that we should throw out all rules such as the church has created. It could be that one symbol over here represents an outward thing, and a symbol over there an inward thing, and yet again a symbol over there, both.

I heard a Christian radio guy say that we must interpret everything in the Bible literally, unless it's obviously a metaphor. I thought, why? Who made that rule up, and are we certain that God is abiding by it at all times?

Your suggestion is just as, or even more dangerous as that of the 'radio guy'. I don't know which church rules you are referring to because they vary.

I see a lot of pick and chose and take the easy way out in the method you suggest. Nothing could be more perfect to create false doctrine. Just assume literal reading. When it gets hard or against what you assume it must mean just switch to spiritual.

I think my simple method is way better.
Everything is literal * (in the symbolic way I described in my previous post)
At the same time everything has a spiritual meaning. *
*=I don't rule out multiple. On the contrary, I expect multiple.

If I can't find those meanings I'm either too stupid to understand or just should keep studying.
Because the literal and spiritual are patterns of each other they can't contradict. That means the spiritual and literal interpretations must align. A safeguard against false doctrine.

[Seth]

Your suggestion is just as, or even more dangerous as that of the 'radio guy'. I don't know which church rules you are referring to because they vary.

I see a lot of pick and chose and take the easy way out in the method you suggest. Nothing could be more perfect to create false doctrine.

False doctrine can be created either way, WhiteWings. The bottom line is that God reveals truth, and no amount of rules, or lack thereof can guarantee success in analyzing scripture. When God creates a mystery, he pretty much safeguards it against man's formulas and only reveals it to whoever he wants.

That's why Paul's revelations were too hard for many of his brothers to swallow.

Just assume literal reading. When it gets hard or against what you assume it must mean just switch to spiritual.

There is no way to guarantee that method is correct, and the Bible does NOT verify or validate it. So your guess is still as good as mine in your approach. False doctrine has been created by this approach too.

[micah7:9]

Marie-Glen,
You are right. Words can have different meanings, but what defines that? Context! In what context was the word used? Not just in the grammar, but what did it mean also in the context of the language of the day it was written in? How did the people think and what affected what they thought? It is my opinion that 'symbol' is correct in this context, especially in a book of symbols. And the fact that much of the writings had to be coded as well due to the political ramifications of the day. You could be killed for writing clearly in that time. Very oppressive and pessamistic times under the tyranny of Rome. Hence the use of appocryphal language being so prevelent in that time. The other main context to remember is that it is "the revelation of Jesus Christ" That is the true focus. So that adds a more defined lense to understanding revelation. The subject is Jesus Christ. The interpretations need to reflect this. It is more than just picking out one possible meaning that we like more than others.  :2c:

indicate 1) to direct attention to; to point to or point out; show 2)to be or give a sign token or indication of ; signify
signify 1) to be a sign or indication of (the rags signify the poverty) 2) to show or make known, as by sign, words, etc. :2c:

[eaglesway]

Trying to "teach" others doctrine from John's, apocalypse, a message from Jesus to the churches, can be a wrong approach to begin with. The revelation of John is purposely interpretive, and it's author, the Logos(written on His thigh, Word of God, Faithful and True) says repeatedly," Let the one who has ears to hear, hear."

So many people quote the injunction not to add to or take away from the words of the scroll, even as they do so themselves. The Holy Spirit is able to communicate the primary truths of the scroll..."You have no need that any man teach you, for you have an anointing that teaches you all things".

It is indisputably better to share from a more humble attitude of, "it seems to me", or "I believe" or "imo" than to treat the views of others with disrespect and trumpet our own views as rock solid perspectives.

Some things the scroll unveils are, imo....

Messiah Jesus(radiance of the Father's glory and express image of His nature) and Him as the one who weighs the reins and the hearts (eyes of fire, face like the sun shining in its strength).

The spiritual conditions of prototypical churches among whom elements of all the downfalls and strengths of local assemblies throughout the ages can be weighed

Pictures of spiritual reality in the age of the ecclessia- images that may hold layers of revelation that speak to various applications and times or be applicable through out the age

Pictures of world events yet to come, kingdoms to rise and fall, whether earthly kingdoms or spiritual principalities not always being clear.

Interestingly to me, there are at least three vivid descriptions of the second coming of Christ(Dake taught them as three seprate coming's, I think he was wrong about that)

If everyone was able to live in the 7 letters to the & churches, as they introduce the apocalypse of the mystery. Ther would be more common edification and agreement, and certainly less grandstanding and presumption. As we all stand together before the one whose eyes are as flames of fire, who tries the reigns and the hearts.

To introduce the unveiling walking among the Lampstands, and to close it with the Bride descending and the call, from the Spirit and the Bride, "Come, let all who thirst drink freely from the water of life"............. I would offer that there is an amazing opportunity to apprehend that which we were apprehended for and walk in union as children and sons and daughters of God in the midst of this perverse generation ;o)

I think the beast, the dragon, those who bear the number of his name, the image that speaks blasphemy from the holy place- on some level all these things speak to the carnal man, the snake eating it own self from the tail forward, the adversaries who imitate the truth, "suppressing the truth in unrighteousness".

It would be funny if in all our figuring and projecting we missed the message to "us" hidden in tapestry.

Religion, yuck :o)

[saintwalee]

 :iagree: :gimmefive:

It has amazed me in this thread how many different points of view there are on Revelation. We all love mysteries (even mystery novels). Even though Revelation is a very serious matter, to me at least it is enjoyable digging for any truths we can find.

Likewise, Jesus also advised us to be on the lookout, so that day would not approach us as a thief in the night, and that we would be caught unaware.

To me it is just like driving into Dallas for the first time, from a distance you see the skyline, but as you get closer and get into the city, the perspective gets more in focus until you are finally there and you can actually see it. Some of the things I thought about Dallas and how it actually is were pretty different. For one, not everyone wore cowboy hats! :laugh:

Only revelation comes with a blessing
Rev 1:3  Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand. . :dsunny:

[marie glen]

In my previous post, I stated that Revelation started out with a grand introduction to the messages to the Churches and that the rest of Revelation should be the details of that Revelation.

..that sounds reasonable..

(burp) Someone has given me some Light, that may not be the case.

oh! what'd I miss! :laughing7:

Rev 1:19  Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;

We know that John testified in his Gospel, that which thou hast seen. and in Revelation 2 and 3 are the letters to the churches, the things which are (even to this present day). Which leaves the things which shall be hereafter.

Rev 4:1  After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.

...very interesting.. :Chinscratch:

There is an order of business that still needs to be resolved. Israel must still be judged. I think that is where the scrolls are opened (the ones sealed in Daniel's day). Jesus needs to clean house and bring all of Israel back so He can be there earthly King.

I think one facet of Israel is they are a microcosm of the world.. they went astray.. all did, for example..(?)

Included in the 144,000
Judah (earth)

Not included in the 144,000
Ephraim (rivers and foundations of waters/Nile river delta/Egypt/world)
Dan (Seas) [interesting link on Dan:http://www.hope-of-israel.org/i000035a.htm

this makes me think ten tribes not so lost after all.. (also were listed by Nehemiah after the dispersion and return..)

Some math:
1/3 of Stars, Moon, Son, etc.
Time,Times and 1/2 time (x)(x)(x/2)=3x/2; x=2/3
1/3 + 2/3 = 1 Any significance or tie-ins with this? Is maybe the time directly correlated with Judah, or Ephraim and Dan?

What first caught my attention was the 10 lost tribes of Israel and the 10 kings on the 7 horns of the Beast.

"That which was, and is not, but yet is". Israel was a nation. At the writing of Revelation ~90 AD (preterist accepted) is not. And yet is, as all 12 tribes where dispersed throughout the world.

Just thinking outside the box. Any thoughts?

I love numbers and I think God makes use of them a lot.. 1/3 of sun, moon, stars (Joel's smoky day?).. of trees.. and sea / trade? mankind..
               :Chinscratch:

the use of numbers which most intrigue me is in two places.. I won't much go into rev 12, where the numbers (3.5) follow a 2nd migration of the faith (imo) when the faith is given the two wings of an eagle to sail fly to a new place.. and then kept safe from the face of the dragon/serpent for 3.5.. here I think of it as 3.5 modern divisions, aka, centuries.. after which a flood of vomit is released after the faith in an effort to wash it off the earth, but the earth opens its mouth - drought? LUKE 23:38,31(?)

The second, which really catches my eye is at the end of the book of Daniel - Dan 12:11,12

..which says (paraphrased) - verse 11 - from the time the (place of?) daily sacrifice (prayers,etc?) is taken away, some versions refer to removed.. and the abomination which makes desolate is set up (amplified Bible calls this the 666 of Rev 13) will be 1,290 days - or that is 3.5 (Hebrew) years and an additional month (a Hebrew leap month?)
    verse 12 - Happy is the one who waits and come to (makes it to?) 45 days later..

[you did say you love a mystery!]

when I read those verses, I think, what happy event occurs on day 1335 after the daily sacrifice is taken away? And occurs on day 45 of 666?

I've heard it interpreted as years, but it's hard for a person to wait and come to that many years..

Here's what I think is a cross reference to the daily sacrifice (place of?) being taken away/removed, which wasn't shown to me by the Holy Spirit but by another poster years ago, in a 'webtv' discussion group--

  (Mt 24:1,2) "Then Jesus went out and departed from the temple, and His disciples came up to show Him the buildings of the temple. And Jesus said to them, "Do you not see aLL these things? Assuredly, I say to you, not one stone shall be left here upon another, that shall not be thrown down."

Does it suggest anything to you? these three verses?? I can't help wondering if another will see this as I do..

[marie glen]

:iagree: :gimmefive:

It has amazed me in this thread how many different points of view there are on Revelation.

It's always amazed me how many since first reading it.. but even more so since attempting to discuss it..

Myself, I have always assumed and perceived it as the collapse of man's system and replaced with God's system, paradise.. Not being overly fond of man's system and its inequity, famines, etc, I have taken that as (ultimately) good news..

That it correlates to inner collapse of one's towers and castles in  the air, seems logical too, though not only..

I am curious as to what the view is otherwise, as to what the book is saying.. Is it the idea that what is written has already occurred?

Or is it that it is only referring to inner and spiritual things? (But with some things viewed as world events, such as "behold I make all things new"..?)

[I wonder how I would go about becoming a speaker to churches on the Book of Rev and Bible prophecy.. tho I may be getting too old for that! But how great it would be to speak freely on it.. or to even just pass on what I believe the HS during my hermit years showed me.]
                 :icon_jokercolor: :Peace2: