How would you respond if an ET'er uses the following verses of Hebrews 10 to assert that eternal torment is just and fair.
Hebrews 10:26-31
26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
If you read those verses with a presumption that judgment lasts forever, it supports an ET paradigm. But where there does it say anything about eternal torment? The judgment of God is fearsome, and our God IS a consuming fire, but there is nothing in these verses that overrule all the verses that say God will ultimately reconcile all, even His adversaries. Especially Col 1:15-20 and 1 Cor 15:22-28.
Quote from: Searching_For_The_Truth on February 13, 2015, 04:07:53 AM
How would you respond if an ET'er uses the following verses of Hebrews 10 to assert that eternal torment is just and fair.
Hebrews 10:26-31
26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
That's the thing. I don't reason with ETers on what is just and fair, but what the Bible says and what it does not say. If an ETer says "Eternal Torment is fair because Hebrews 10" my response is the same as Eaglesway, where does Hebrews 10 mention anything about eternal torment?
Concordant Literal Version -
Heb. 10:26 For at our sinning voluntarily after obtaining the recognition of the truth, it is no longer leaving a sacrifice concerned with sins,
27 but a certain fearful waiting for judging and fiery jealousy, about to be eating the hostile.
28 Anyone repudiating Moses' law is dying without pity on the testimony of two or three witnesses.
29 Of how much worse punishment, [Gk: timoria], are you supposing, will he be counted worthy who tramples on the Son of God, and deems the blood of the covenant by which he is hallowed contaminating, and outrages the spirit of grace?
This is a most powerful Scripture to be sure, but it does not speak of "eternal" punishment as Eaglesway and Seth point out, and it is the only scripture in the entirety of the new testament that uses the correct translation "punishment", [Gk: timoria], with reference to punishing sinners!
Those who have committed the above sin towards the Lord are few. To have been called into a personal relationship with Christ, and then reject Him as Lord and Saviour is very grievous. Very few in this category. Maybe Judas is one? Most of humanity that will be judged in the lake of fire have never even heard of Jesus Christ, let alone, "trodden underfoot the Son of God, and counted the blood of the covenant, an unholything, and done despite unto the Spirit of grace."
Most have never even heard of such sins, let alone committed them.
Yes we read in Heb. 10:26, "For if we sin willfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remains no more sacrifice for sins,"?
That's true, but that does not doom that person to an eternal punishment and torture in some hell. "But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries" (Heb. 10:27).
Yes, there are sins that will not be forgiven in this lifetime, but will rather be judged in the day of God's Judgment upon the whole wicked world. That will not be a happy time for those who will have their sins judged in that manner, but neither will it be an ET situation.
Excellent post!
Thanks EW :ty:
:dsunny:
Quote from: Searching_For_The_Truth on February 13, 2015, 04:07:53 AM
How would you respond if an ET'er uses the following verses of Hebrews 10 to assert that eternal torment is just and fair.
Hebrews 10:26-31
26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
'will be counted worthy'..doesn't mean they'll get said punishment.
everyone needs to realize His great great LOVE for man. His word is like fire...in that it will will consume/dross/tares of the adversary
even satan.....that seek to destroy the grace He has given His children. So, your adversary and mine..best beware of Father's indignation
that he be handing his children serpents and stones..and they do tremble...and know the time of their torment is at hand.
the adversary knows when God chose grace and salvation for man..and nailed the law to the cross..that they had no legal
right to plague His children[men] Under the old law covenant they could plague those who disobeyed..........
sift like wheat..is what satan demanded...but Jesus said..fear not.....not one of the hairs of your head will fall to the earth.
only chaff and tare seed will fall to the earth..but the Word of God come in flesh will stand TRUE..even the salvation of all men.
see His eyes of fire in revelation? How HE watches the works of the adversary as it infiltrates His church...and see the final end of His
church/bride..without spot or blemish. The intensity of His LOVE will accomplish this. Don't you doubt it for a moment..nothing
will thwart His purpose.....even if He must hand the church over to satan for the destruction of the flesh/chaff/tares that the spirit
[wheat]be saved on His DAY[Laodecia]..the flesh counts for nothing......and ALL must be delivered from this body undergoing
this death. His zeal[intense LOVE] will accomplish this.
BUT IF WE DO SIN...WE HAVE AN ADVOCATE...............some men's sins precede them to judgement[before GRACE GIVEN]
some men's sins after. the man of lawlessness[without spirit of LOVE/God] even the spirit of the adversary..will not learn
righteousness even when Grace is shown...but will continue with his wicked works to his own destruction.....even devouring
and putting to death those whom God made atonement for and gave Grace to.[spirit willing/flesh weak,desire to do good/evil present]
WHO WILL DELIVER US FROM THIS BODY UNDERGOING THIS DEATH? the enemy falls on the border of Israel...keep the
commandments of the Holy spirit..that you enjoy spiritual health...abstain from fornication,idolatry,blood and things strangled
this is your border...this is what turns the enemy back at the gate[that the enemy may not enter you/but be without/even though
he surround you[camp of Holy city] May His spirit be burning hot in you/and your flesh cold as dead
those with an unjust pair of scales[grace to some..He does not take away all sin] are already infiltrated with a cheating pair of scales.
the spirit of iniquity is in them[all bound up in disobedience that grace be given to all] but where iniquity abounds,grace abounds all
the more. He counted the cost to Himself..before He set His heart on delivering man..and though it 'appear" the adversary has
been victorious[just as when they put Him to death on the cross] it is quite to the contrary. Death has no sting..O'Death I shall
be thy plague. I AM THE RESURRECTION..and though man be as sheep led to slaughter..not one of them shall be missing!
24 Wretched man that I am! Who will set me free from the body of this death? 25 Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, on the one hand I myself with my mind am serving the law of God, but on the other, with my flesh the law of sin.
Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death.
Through the administration of the fulness of times God is gathering all men into one in Christ Jesus(Eph 1:9,10; John 12:2, Romans 11:32-36)
It has been a process through the ages.
The law was given well into that process, as Paul said, "To mke sin more sinful(meaning to make it evident/manifest what is good and what is evil).
The law was not sufficient- and it was not meant to be. So it was burned up. Nailed to a tree. Killed. Cast into the fire and anulled. Swallowed up by that which it foreshadowed.
It was a stage. Israel was not the final product either- it was never meant to be. It was a prototype, almost a stick drawing compared to what God is revealing through the church to the principalities and powers in the heavenlu realms. Compared to the revelation of the children of God....compared to the kingdom of God and the all in all.
The church(general assembly of the firstborn registered in heaven) is also a stage. It is not the final product either. It is the first fruit of the harvest. The harvest is "all" in the ages to come. In this age it is the ecclesia, the first fruits.
Those who are not "in Christ" are "in Adam". All who are in Christ have passed from death unto life.
All who are in Adam are still under the reign of death. When the administration of the fulness of times is fulfilled, all will be "in Christ" and God will be all in all.
There is no "unjust scale" in declaring that there will be judgment for the wicked on the great day. Jesus declared it. Paul declared it. Peter declared it. Jude declared it. James declared it.
It is not an unjust scale because whatever aionios kolassis and aionian pyr represent- they will accomplish the same things in those who experience them that fiery trials and tribulations are accomplishing in us in this life.
It is not unjust that God reproves the wicked in this life. When we speak of God's love we have to include the scriptures which say, "God disciplines every son whom He receives."
It is for discipline that we endure.
So, is it an "unjust scale" to declare that God will have a fiery trial for the wicked who denied His grace and love in this life? Those who laughed at His righteousness and consumed His creation like bread?
No, it is not- because God has Himself declared it through the apostles and the prophets. Some will be saved through the breakers that will roll over them in the presence of God when they cry out to the rocks to hide them from His face- bt that is ok.
In fact it is wonderful.
All correction is for the purpose of reclamation, redemption, reconciliation, revelation and restoration.
To portray those who declare the wrath to come as having false scales is the same as saying none of the prophets or apostles understood the word of God.
To characterize them, or anyone else who believes in aionios pyr and aionios kolassis as condemning men is not accurate. All the apsotles understood universal reconciliation.
They also understood that there would be a process of correction involved in the accomplishment of the full harvest. Its already so now. There is nothing at all eggregious about stating that it will continue in the age to come until the last adversary if cast into the lake of fire.
A good question is this.
If the lake of fire is the second death, how is death cast into it. How does death consume death- since a house divided cannot stand and if Satan casts out Satan he cannot stand according to Jesus Himself.
Only Life and immortality can consume death.
"O death where is thy sting.....Death is swallowed up by immortality"
Punishment and correction are different, altho there can be an element of punishment in correction- punishment is not always for correction.
But in Christ correction is always the goal of any punishment- and there is punishment.
"You shall not escape until you have paid the last penny"
"If after you have gone to your brother with two witnesses, if he does not repent, take him before the whole church and let him become as an unbeliever"- thats Jesus talking btw.
"I hav decided to deliver such a one over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh so that his spirit may be saved in the Day."
David said, in Psalm 32
"How blessed is the man to whom the LORD does not impute iniquity, And in whose spirit there is no deceit! 3When I kept silent about my sin, my body wasted away Through my groaning all day long. 4For day and night Your hand was heavy upon me; My vitality was drained away as with the fever heat of summer. Selah...."
Seems he spent some time in his own little lake of fire.
This is the same as Romans 7 and 8... if we are in Adam, refusing to confess....if we are in Christ but set upon the flesh
The hand of the Lord will rest heavy upon us- TO DELIVER US.
"Who shall deliver me from the body of this death"
We ought not confuse declaring the process of correction with a failure to understand God's love because God corrects every son He receives- for their edification.
Therefore it makes sense to me that if God corrects the wicked who persist in their hardness. If God honors His word that HE IS NOT MOCKED, in the age to come- it will not be because He does not love them.
It will be because they locked themselves into a state of being by their persistent wickedness that will take fire to burn thorugh from within.
This is why we need to be honest and humble before Him when He corrects us. This why we are to let no root of bitterness spring up. This is why we are not to allow wilful persistent sins to be committed by members of the assembly. It allows roots to become trees of defilement that must have an axe laid to their root so they can be cast into the fire.
THEY DO NOT GET CAST INTO THE FIRE JUST AS REVENGE FOR THEIR INIQUITY. They get cast into the fire because they must start from scratch. Get back to the undefiled SEED. Return to their FIRST LOVE. PEEL BACK THE VEIL OF THEIR SELF-SUFFICIENCY and SELF WILL. The fire separates out THE ALLOYS- strong things mixed throughout the inner parts that men think are good but are actually evil.
3When I kept silent about my sin, my body wasted away Through my groaning all day long. 4For day and night Your hand was heavy upon me; My vitality was drained away as with the fever heat of summer. Selah....
Behold both the kindness and the severity of the Father- All of it proceeds from HIS LOVE. All of it PROCEEDS FROM HIS GRACE.
This is what the writer means when He says , "If the righteous scarcely be saved where shall the godless and the ssinner appear?"
They will appear before the throne of God on the Day God judges the secrets of men's hearts through Jesus Christ. I believe many, maybe even most will bow the knee immediatley- but I also believe that many will not, and some will also find themselves unable, because of the defilement that has grown up within their bones and is twisted throughout their soul and spirit. God is not mocked, He warns for a reason.
We speak as if it is about arbitrary values and law, but it is about life. How a tree grows. How the ground goes fallow. How fruit gets poisoned. How a predator becomes untouched by death. How a ruler becomes deaf to the cries of hos people. How a religious man becomes indifferent to the stranger beaten and dying on the side of the road.
God loves them all, but in this life we do more than turn switches on and off. It is organic. It is in our bones and our flesh. If we will not receive the cleansing blood through transparency and humility- we find that the axe and the fire will grant us the transparency and humility we need :o)
Those under Moses who died after two or three witnesses will be resurrected.. And it is a fearful thing in not yet born again state to fall into the hands of the living God..! To be still flawed and in His Presence.
We are all destroyed - without Jesus, that is. But there is resurrection. I don't know anywhere in God's Word where it says once having lived and died, that's it, if without Jesus- no hope. Even torment 'forever'.. Gee i sure wish YHWH had been more capable...
Would I say it like that? No, I'm a real wimp, haha, just very polite. Usually. :gsmile:
..just responding to the opening post.. little late as usual. I'm actually on vacation.. A camping vacation.. the best..
Glad to see Eaglesway is here..
Luke 7;41..there was a certain creditor which had two debtors; the one owed five hundred pence and the other fifty..
and when they had nothing to pay...he frankly fogave them both. Tell me,therefore,which of them will love him most?
now imagine this scenario...the prodigal son has left..and gone off in rebellion and not remained home withe Father. The Father mourns
this loss/death..even though he is still alive etc. and the elder son starts slandering that good-for-nothing wicked brother of his.
he expects..if that wicked brother should ever perhaps return home..for Father to really let him have it. Now the Father knows
what is out there and just what a hard fix that prodigal will be in away from his Father's help..and the ruin he'll come to.
imagine the elder sons surprise when the fatted calf and the best robe is given.
the spirit is willing and the flesh weak.......it is hard to discern a servant from a son when they are young[our time here on earth]
...sometimes a son will act like a servant and not remain in his Father's house...and sometimes a son that has always served in His
Father's house will refuse to join the celebration taking place in His Fathers house.
Now the Father re-assures the elder son that all I have is yours[position in the kingdom]but I had to rejoice,for this,YOUR BROTHER
was dead and is alive!
As I see it you make my point. The prodigal son went through his "lake of fire". He did not return home until he "came to his senses". His kolaasis. came in the pig pen. He repented and returned to his fathers house a as a humble servant.
Who would prevent him that experience? The older brother did not place him there. We as the first fruits will rejoice as every knee bows and every tongue confesses Jesus Christ is Lord, in a repentant heart ready to serve. We are not the older brother because certain adversaries may experience aionios kolassis.
We are not the older brother because Jesus will say to some, Depart from me you lawless ones into the fire prepared for the devil and his angels."
We will rejoice with the angels as each one bows until no adversaries remain and God is all
In my opinion, we cannot add to the parables by ascribing a thought life to the characters that is not given in the parable itself. We shouldn't be adding like that.
Given ONLY the information Jesus gives in the parable, the older brother gets a gentle correction, having remained with his father and worked, having apparently no desire to leave his father's house. The prodigal son goes through "hell."
That's it. That's the information we have. Older brother gets a verbal correction; younger brother goes through hell. Personally, I believe this parable is a chiding against being elitist on the one had. And also a demonstration of the wisdom of the father giving that son everything he asked for so that he would be broken down and humbled.
Isaiah 30
12"Because you have rejected this message,
relied on oppression
and depended on deceit,
13 this sin will become for you
like a high wall, cracked and bulging,
that collapses suddenly, in an instant.
Didn't Paul warn "for sudden destruction will come upon them, and they shall not escape? That's what I also, echoing Eaglesway, believe happened to the prodigal son.
BTW, I just want to add a thought about the prodigal son. I believe it represents Christians, not a Christian and an unbeliever.
It's two sons, both in the same house, who both receive an inheritance. How they use the inheritance is the subject of the parable. It's a post-inheritance parable. One brother makes use of it, but isn't perfect. The other completely squanders it.
To me, I think the parable reminds me what Peter described in 2 Peter 2. Those who were freed from sin, only to return like a dog to vomit and become worse off than they were before.
2 Peter 2
17 These people are springs without water and mists driven by a storm. Blackest darkness is reserved for them. 18 For they mouth empty, boastful words and, by appealing to the lustful desires of the flesh, they entice people who are just escaping from those who live in error.19 They promise them freedom, while they themselves are slaves of depravity—for "people are slaves to whatever has mastered them." 20 If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and are overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning. 21 It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them. 22 Of them the proverbs are true: "A dog returns to its vomit," and, "A sow that is washed returns to her wallowing in the mud."
well..since it is now ok to add a thought..I will indulge..[and I do like your thought]
.the inheritance/dominion was Adams...and all in Adam become prodigal's
and squandered the earth they inherited. the true heir is Christ Jesus..and He took everything He had and made himself poor
to buy back His prodigal brother's..the elder brother's just repented first and were fellow workers with him
The way I see it is that the parable is about the kingdom similar to 10 virgins and of the talents. It's about the inheritance of money which according to the talents parable is good for investing and increasing value rather than burying, or in the case of the prodigal son wasting.
I don't see the loving father who awaited his sons return as being Adam. The same father who gave the inheritance is the one who throws the party.
Luke 3;38 Adam the son of God
And not an unbeliever.
Reminded me of the two sons ...
Matt 21 21:28 "What do you think? A man had two sons. He went to the first and said, 'Son, go and work in the vineyard today.'
21:29 The boy answered, 'I will not.' But later he had a change of heart and went.
21:30 The father went to the other son and said the same thing. This boy answered, 'I will, sir,' but did not go.
21:31 Which of the two did his father's will?" They said, "The first." Jesus said to them, "I tell you the truth, tax collectors and prostitutes will go ahead of you into the kingdom of God!
21:32 For John came to you in the way of righteousness, and you did not believe him. But the tax collectors and prostitutes believed him. Although you saw this, you did not later change your minds and believe him."
I see this as catchy , the ones whom do change their minds/ faith is working , do the FATHERS WILL ..
BUT the ones whom don't change their minds to the obedient by faith works from the rebellious , even with proof and prodding of God ? and a third party/ all other nations /gentiles now
JESUS spoke only of the humbled not the hardened as far as doing the Fathers will .
Is the trick question a matter of heart and love being the motive ?
How many times have we done somthing because we love , but did not think it though and end up only to be crushed by it ?
LOTS of reasonings and oblique interpretaions of parables to by-pass direct statements of scripture.
"If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10 he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed in full strength in the cup of His anger; and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. Rv 14:10
and the Devil, who is leading them astray, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where [are] the beast and the false prophet, and they shall be tormented day and night -- to the ages of the ages. And I saw a great white throne, and Him who is sitting upon it, from whose face the earth and the heaven did flee away, and place was not found for them.......and the death and the hades were cast to the lake of the fire -- this [is] the second death; and if any one was not found written in the scroll of the life, he was cast to the lake of the fire. Rv 20
5 but, according to thy hardness and impenitent heart, thou dost treasure up to thyself wrath, in a day of wrath and of the revelation of the righteous judgment of God, who shall render to each according to his works; to those, indeed, who in continuance of a good work, do seek glory, and honour, and incorruptibility -- life age-during; and to those contentious, and disobedient, indeed, to the truth, and obeying the unrighteousness -- indignation and wrath, Rom 2
6 For after all it is only just for God to repay with affliction those who afflict you, and to give relief to you who are afflicted and to us as well when the Lord Jesus will be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire, dealing out retribution to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from[/s](apo- out of/from) the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes to be glorified in His saints on that day, and to be marveled at among all who have believed—for our testimony to you was believed. 2 Thess 1
Perhaps Paul and John were just a couple of old Pharisees short on revelation, out of the loop. But the Lord of Glory confirms their words...
31"But when the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on His glorious throne. 32"All the nations will be gathered before Him; and He will separate them from one another, as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats; 33and He will put the sheep on His right, and the goats on the left.....
41Then He will say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42For I was hungry and you gave Me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave Me nothing to drink....
It is one thing to tell opponents of UR that all will be reconciled. It is another to tell them there will be no "aionion pyr"- no correction in the age to come.
UR is clearly presented in the scripture and irrefutable to a reasoned mind. We all agree on that.
The second is not.
The practice of presenting philosophy and reasonings without addressing the scriptures that oppose ones view does not satisfy or convince. We are to be workmen worthy to be approved in our handling of the scriptures.
Those who are in Christ are a new creation, they are no longer in Adam, they have died, and when Christ who is their life is revealed in glory, they will appear with Him in glory.
Those who have rejected Christ will not. They will appear with all the rest of the dead to be judged according to their works.
John the Baptist understood this as well.
7But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming for baptism, he said to them, "You brood of vipers, who warned you to flee from the wrath to come? 8"Therefore bear fruit in keeping with repentance; 9and do not suppose that you can say to yourselves, 'We have Abraham for our father'; for I say to you that from these stones God is able to raise up children to Abraham. 10"The axe is already laid at the root of the trees; therefore every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.
The ongoing dispute here is whether all who remain to be judged will receive immediate forgiveness or not. I have presented a few out of many verses that indocate that some corrective measure will remain into the age to come.
It is described in the scriptures as fire from the presence of God.
This is no great thing, since our God is a consuming fire.
I would love to believe that all are immediatley forgiven. I personally hav no problem with that. God can do as He wills and I am fine with whatever He does but....
The scriptures are given for our instruction- and this is not what the scriptures present.
I have made no assertions as to what EXACTLY aionion pyr is because no one knows.
I have made no assertions as to how long it lasts, because the scriptures DO NOT SAY- and it is the scriptures that carry weight with me, not reasonings and well wishes.
Paul sees the second coming as a historical event.
It is a spiritual event that happens in history- as was the death burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ.
John the Baptist proclaimed the wrath to come....
7But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming for baptism, he said to them, "You brood of vipers, who warned you to flee from the wrath to come? 8"Therefore bear fruit in keeping with repentance; 9and do not suppose that you can say to yourselves, 'We have Abraham for our father'; for I say to you that from these stones God is able to raise up children to Abraham. 10"The axe is already laid at the root of the trees; therefore every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.
The nations who are reconciled to God through Christ trace their fatherhood to Abraham, not Adam. In Adam all died, in Abraham all have been grafted into Jesus Christ, who is our life.
Now, the prupose of our gospel is not, primarily- do declare wrath, so I dont want anyone to say that I am advocating that. Ours is a ministry of reconciliation and that is what I rejoice in.
I just think it is a clear and a very obvious error to try to excise the correction of God in the age to come from the scriptures. There are just too many references to it.
:iagree:
Quote from: eaglesway on September 07, 2016, 06:21:16 PM
I just think it is a clear and a very obvious error to try to excise the correction of God in the age to come from the scriptures. There are just too many references to it.
agreed
:iagree: :dsunny:
I do believe the beast is our own carnality John , and it is serving our own bellies and dwells in death
to be carnally minded is death Living in the Spirit is life and peace ....
...5Those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh; but those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit. 6The mind of the flesh is death, but the mind of the Spirit is life and peace, 7because the mind of the flesh is hostile to God: It does not submit to God's Law, nor can it do so....
Berean Study Bible
Romans 6:21
What fruit did you reap at that time from the things you are now ashamed of? The outcome of those things is death.
Many things I am ashamed of now and HOPE that they never happen again unless a worse thing comes to battle , vexing the Spirit
Isaiah 63:10
But they rebelled and grieved His Holy Spirit;
So He turned Himself against them as an enemy,
And He fought against them.
Psalm 78:8
And may not be like their fathers,
A stubborn and rebellious generation,
A generation that did not set its heart aright,
And whose spirit was not faithful to God.
40:How often they provoked Him in the wilderness,
And grieved Him in the desert!
41 Yes, again and again they tempted God,
And limited the Holy One of Israel.
Acts 7:51
"You stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears! You always resist the Holy Spirit; as your fathers did, so do you.
Ephesians 4:30
And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.
Hebrews 10:29
Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace?
Romans 6:23
For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
I so do believe the scriptures and that some are reaping 30 fold sixty fold and 100 fold in the now and have Life in CHRIST .
To me the good ground / earth is the Body of Christ that the meek inherit . Matt 5
Romans 8:13
For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.
The cutting off of the hand and foot and eye , those body parts that keep you out of the Kingdom of God now ...
Romans 8:27
And He who searches our hearts knows the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for the saints according to the will of God.
Galatians 6:8
The one who sows to please his flesh, from the flesh will reap destruction; but the one who sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life.
I LOVE THE GOSPEL AND THE TESTIMONY OF JESUS CHRIST BEING THE VERY SPIRIT OF PROPHECY that John and Paul carried in their bosom along with the faith works of Abraham ........
I believe what God has joined together no man can separate and nothing can separate us from the Love of God as we love Him back ......
God Works In All Things
(Ephesians 1:3-14)
28And we know that God works all things together for the good of those who love Him, who are called according to His purpose.
29For those God foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son,
so that He would be the firstborn among many brothers.
30And those He predestined He also called, those He called He also justified, those He justified He also glorified.
31What then shall we say in response to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us!
32He who did not spare His own Son but gave Him up for us all, how will He not also, along with Him, freely give us all things? 33Who will bring any charge against God's elect? It is God who justifies.
34Who is there to condemn us? For Christ Jesus, who died, and more than that was raised to life, is at the right hand of God—and He is interceding for us.
More than Conquerors
(Psalm 44:1-26)
35Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall trouble or distress or persecution or famine or nakedness or danger or sword? 36As it is written:
"For Your sake we face death all day long;
we are considered as sheep to be slaughtered."
37No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through Him who loved us.
38For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor principalities, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, 39neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
But not at this present time all Love GOD completely , am a babe in that my sins are forgiven for His name sake , but have NOT overcome the evil one yet , but trying , apparently not all my heart and soul and might is diminished yet striving against sin Matt 5 blasted loud and clear as to not being complete in LOVE yet ...... the proof or the fruit is in the root ...
JAMES 2 Faith and Works
...17So too, faith by itself, if it is not complemented by action, is dead.
18But someone will say, "You have faith and I have deeds." Show me your faith without deeds,
and I will show you my faith by my deeds.
19You believe that God is one. Good for you! Even the demons believe that, and shudder!...20O foolish man, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is worthless?d 21Was not our father Abraham justified by what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22You see that his faith was working with his actions, and his faith was perfected by what he did. 23And the Scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,"e and he was called a friend of God. 24As you can see, a man is justified by his deeds and not by faith alone.
25In the same way, was not even Rahab the prostitute justified by her actions when she welcomed the messengers and sent them off on another route? 26As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead.
Must be the dead works Paul spoke of in Hebrews 6 ? , having faith but no fruits of the Spirit working to completeness ?
With all due respect to scripture....warnings and all.
Prophecies of terrible judgements..to come, as some hear, preaching a kind of get-in-line sinner before all comes crashing down on you in something called God's holy wrath.
He didn't deal with me that way tho. He loved me, called me gently and melted me in His loving Being and Truth.
So I do not know anymore how to look on any human being He created...and not see how ....how He loved me....as my purpose in Him while I live in Him...to love them..each one...that same way. Each one, no matter how bound in sin...IS our brother and sister He died for.
That is all I really know. To practically and actually love our brothers and sisters now when they need us most in this age now...we live. Nice thought to be in the first resurrection...looking to the future someday sometime somewhere over that rainbow.
To me...the 1st resurrection is all of us as first fruits He raised up even now....we are alive in Him. Alive in love. Alive in His mercy. Alive to shine in even the deepest darkness that presents which opposes His actual blood shed death....and resurrection as the Lord of the living and the *still dead.
Physician. Healer. Saviour. Provider. King of glory.
A dear brother in Christ told me all about the suffering in Guatamala. Terrible things are happening there to children...countless innocent orphaned children.
Examining myself as a believer in this wicked eon... in the face of his bravery to go there time and time again...knowing all the evil he faces...he goes anyway. Knowing death could wait for him due to the situation there.
He just knows who He loves and Who has loved him. He is not polished in researching jots and tittles.
I learned more from this bro in 3 months than I did at "bible college."
Things that matter.
Like love.
QuoteWith all due respect to scripture....warnings and all.
Prophecies of terrible judgements..to come, as some hear, preaching a kind of get-in-line sinner before all comes crashing down on you in something called God's holy wrath.
He didn't deal with me that way tho. He loved me, called me gently and melted me in His loving Being and Truth.
From what I see in scripture, there is a progression about being led to repentance. Not, an immediate harsh judgment. This is, I think, explained in Romans 2.
Romans 2
2 You, therefore, have no excuse, you who pass judgment on someone else, for at whatever point you judge another, you are condemning yourself, because you who pass judgment do the same things. 2 Now we know that God's judgment against those who do such things is based on truth. 3 So when you, a mere human being, pass judgment on them and yet do the same things, do you think you will escape God's judgment? 4 Or do you
show contempt for the riches of his kindness, forbearance and patience, not realizing that God's kindness is intended to lead you to repentance?5 But because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart,
you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God's wrath, when his righteous judgment will be revealed. 6 God "will repay each person according to what they have done."[a] 7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. 8 But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger. 9 There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile; 10 but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. 11 For God does not show favoritism.
Paul is talking to people who have been led to repentance but then it appears there has been some elitism and hypocritical judgment in the manner described in 2 Peter 2.
So, this isn't about God just blasting sinners. The scriptures say he is SLOW to anger. All throughout the Bible, particularly with King Ahab, there were warnings and pleadings of several prophets. And finally, God just dealt with him. It can get to that place where the only thing that will work is a Nebuchadnezzar experience of being sent out to the wilderness with a heart made like a beast to be beastly until repentance comes again.
correction and wrath are two different things.......GOODNEWS there is a ministry in HEAVEN..that corrects and perfects the
just spirits of men! It gives perfect instruction.. fiery lectures for purifying.......
God's wrath is higher than man's wrsth so I don't see any tension between his wrath and corrective fruit.
hellists use this to support eternal damnation..how many street preachers have i heard recently spouting this terrifying stuff ...only a monster would torture people forever..i can be scared of such a god and pray to him out of terror n fear but cannot love such a being..i cant believe God does that..he doesnt torment people in a lake of fire
I wonder sometimes if we are just like religious buttons.
After long involved discussions about things like this imparticular- I wonder if we communicate at all with one another.
Does anyone really read anyone elses posts?
Does anyone read the scriptures? lol
There is a seam that runs through all the scriptures. A perfect integration of love and truth, judgment and mercy, righteousness and grace.
God judges. He corrects. He is the fire- and the fire is love, and it is only torment to those who hate.
If someone says, "I love God," and hates his brother, he is a liar; for the one who does not love his brother whom he has seen, cannot love God whom he has not seen. 21And this commandment we have from Him, that the one who loves God should love his brother also.
There are no physical flames consuming flesh. There is light consuming darkness, love exposing hate. It is the presence of God and the face of Jesus Christ shining like the sun.
For God, who said, "Light shall shine out of darkness," is the One who has shone in our hearts to give the Light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ.
Jesus is the Savior of the World. When Jesus died on the cross, and rose again, He redeemed ALL humanity..most do not realize this Wonderful Truth yet..but they will, in their time..whether in this life or the next....and, ultimately, ALL will be saved and reconciled to the Father...you, me . everybody who has ever lived..we will ALL be there, one day, with Jesus...praising Him for redeeming us and giving us the priceless gift of never ending life...this is what I believe the Bible says.
Quote from: Song91 on September 07, 2016, 08:36:06 PM
With all due respect to scripture....warnings and all.
Prophecies of terrible judgements..to come, as some hear, preaching a kind of get-in-line sinner before all comes crashing down on you in something called God's holy wrath.
He didn't deal with me that way tho. He loved me, called me gently and melted me in His loving Being and Truth.
So I do not know anymore how to look on any human being He created...and not see how ....how He loved me....as my purpose in Him while I live in Him...to love them..each one...that same way. Each one, no matter how bound in sin...IS our brother and sister He died for.
That is all I really know. To practically and actually love our brothers and sisters now when they need us most in this age now...we live. Nice thought to be in the first resurrection...looking to the future someday sometime somewhere over that rainbow.
To me...the 1st resurrection is all of us as first fruits He raised up even now....we are alive in Him. Alive in love. Alive in His mercy. Alive to shine in even the deepest darkness that presents which opposes His actual blood shed death....and resurrection as the Lord of the living and the *still dead.
Physician. Healer. Saviour. Provider. King of glory.
A dear brother in Christ told me all about the suffering in Guatamala. Terrible things are happening there to children...countless innocent orphaned children.
Examining myself as a believer in this wicked eon... in the face of his bravery to go there time and time again...knowing all the evil he faces...he goes anyway. Knowing death could wait for him due to the situation there.
He just knows who He loves and Who has loved him. He is not polished in researching jots and tittles.
I learned more from this bro in 3 months than I did at "bible college."
Things that matter.
Like love.
Nice post!
Quote from: darryl on September 08, 2016, 07:04:02 AM
hellists use this to support eternal damnation..how many street preachers have i heard recently spouting this terrifying stuff ...only a monster would torture people forever..i can be scared of such a god and pray to him out of terror n fear but cannot love such a being..i cant believe God does that..he doesnt torment people in a lake of fire
:iagree:
Quote from: darryl on September 08, 2016, 07:27:28 AM
Jesus is the Savior of the World. When Jesus died on the cross, and rose again, He redeemed ALL humanity..most do not realize this Wonderful Truth yet..but they will, in their time..whether in this life or the next....and, ultimately, ALL will be saved and reconciled to the Father...you, me . everybody who has ever lived..we will ALL be there, one day, with Jesus...praising Him for redeeming us and giving us the priceless gift of never ending life...this is what I believe the Bible says.
:iagree:
Quote from: Patinak on September 08, 2016, 07:37:29 AM
Quote from: Song91 on September 07, 2016, 08:36:06 PM
With all due respect to scripture....warnings and all.
Prophecies of terrible judgements..to come, as some hear, preaching a kind of get-in-line sinner before all comes crashing down on you in something called God's holy wrath.
He didn't deal with me that way tho. He loved me, called me gently and melted me in His loving Being and Truth.
So I do not know anymore how to look on any human being He created...and not see how ....how He loved me....as my purpose in Him while I live in Him...to love them..each one...that same way. Each one, no matter how bound in sin...IS our brother and sister He died for.
That is all I really know. To practically and actually love our brothers and sisters now when they need us most in this age now...we live. Nice thought to be in the first resurrection...looking to the future someday sometime somewhere over that rainbow.
To me...the 1st resurrection is all of us as first fruits He raised up even now....we are alive in Him. Alive in love. Alive in His mercy. Alive to shine in even the deepest darkness that presents which opposes His actual blood shed death....and resurrection as the Lord of the living and the *still dead.
Physician. Healer. Saviour. Provider. King of glory.
A dear brother in Christ told me all about the suffering in Guatamala. Terrible things are happening there to children...countless innocent orphaned children.
Examining myself as a believer in this wicked eon... in the face of his bravery to go there time and time again...knowing all the evil he faces...he goes anyway. Knowing death could wait for him due to the situation there.
He just knows who He loves and Who has loved him. He is not polished in researching jots and tittles.
I learned more from this bro in 3 months than I did at "bible college."
Things that matter.
Like love.
Nice post!
:thumbsup: :HeartThrob:
Sounds sweet and mushy wonderful but really all that is written matters and the warnings given to the wicked are a substantial part of the revelation of God.
But love is the key point. However we may disagree what love is. A father who does not disipline his son hates his son- according to the scriptures. Every father who loves his son disciplines his son, according to the scriptures. Any son who is not disciplined by the Father is an illegitimate son and has no inheritance, because the Father scourges every son He receives.
So defining love in the new age mishmash that "transcends" the scriptures isn't really love at all in my view. It is hate. Carnal enmity against God. A failure to discern His ways, His plan, His Word.
Thank God all winds up in love and we all agree on that, but the process involves work and pain and tears and sometimes, terror, sacrifice and blood.
The problem I see is that when UR adherents begtin to excise the judgment and discipline of God from the gospel is they wind up like unitarian univeralists- all new agey and and full of exalted revelations that transcend the scriptures- but truly in error and without discernment.
that post didn't sound new age to me. Love isn't for sissies..love is as strong as death. Love has it's own discipline and fruit.
Well that is just it in a nutshell ........
God has allowed all this grace , to prove the point , man cannot ''govern '' himself , much less anyone else .
The pride and arrogance of the carnal mind , that subtle beast is astounding , just consider the political situation of the U.S.
The slander and backbiting and HATE that pours forth like a flood full of filthy lies , he who hates is the exact same as a murderer .
and never address the ''core '' of the problems being divisions , divisions , divisions that none can agree on anything fully ..
truly everyone is left to their own ways .......
The Rich Young Man
...28Jesus said to them, "Truly I tell you, in the renewal of all things, when the Son of Man sits on His glorious throne, you who have followed Me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
According to the scriptures Jesus is sitting on His glorious Throne when He ascended to the FATHER ...
29And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or wife or children or fields for the sake of My name will receive a hundredfold and will inherit eternal life. 30But many who are first will be last, and the last will be first....
Matthew 6:33
But seek first the kingdom of God and His righteousness, and all these things will be added unto you.
Matthew 25:34
Then the King will say to those on His right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.
Matthew 25:46
And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."
What if your whole life here is a punishment ?
and what if your whole life here is BLESSED OF GOD , because you seeked His Kingdom and righteousness first and loved HIM the way He loves us , WE ARE TO LOVE GOD with every fiber of our being and in every way first and foremost , so you can love everyone else . you cannot love everyone else without Loving GOD first , If He is not working within you ...
JESUS said I do all this work as the Father teaches me to do and say what He tells me to as to nothing was of himself per se ' ..His own words ,, HE WAS THE WILLING AND EMPTY VESSEL FILLED WITH GOD AS COMPLETE AND PERFECT and poured out as the only offering and sacrifice given to mankind for a SIGN and PERFECT EXAMPLE ....
God being the very source and power of LOVE is corrective from sin which is error and missing the mark of the higher calling to RISE above all this death and LIVE TO HIM and for Him to the utmost of your abilities given by HIM as HE adds the increase of spiritual growth and TRUTH to anyone at any time whom is honest and sincere about the salvation of all plan in the here and now .. TODAY if you hear His voice and do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion !!
and working against God , HE BECOMES YOUR ENEMY ...there is no other god or way evil in the day is punished and set for destruction......
Romans 13:4
For he is God's servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword in vain. For he is the servant of God, an avenger who carries out God's wrath on the wrongdoer.
Matthew 5:38-39
"You have heard that it was said, 'An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.' But I say to you, Do not resist the one who is evil. But if anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also.
Psalm 23:4
Even though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil, for you are with me; your rod and your staff, they comfort me.
1 Timothy 5:8
But if anyone does not provide for his relatives, and especially for members of his household, he has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever.
James 4:4
You adulterous people! Do you not know that friendship with the world is enmity with God? Therefore whoever wishes to be a friend of the world makes himself an enemy of God.
Matthew 10:34
"Do not think that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I have not come to bring peace, but a sword.
Exodus 14:14
The Lord will fight for you, and you have only to be silent."
Psalm 34:7-10
The angel of the Lord encamps around those who fear him, and delivers them. Oh, taste and see that the Lord is good! Blessed is the man who takes refuge in him! Oh, fear the Lord, you his saints, for those who fear him have no lack! The young lions suffer want and hunger; but those who seek the Lord lack no good thing.
Exodus 23:22
"But if you carefully obey his voice and do all that I say, then I will be an enemy to your enemies and an adversary to your adversaries.
Psalm 109:1-31
To the choirmaster. A Psalm of David. Be not silent, O God of my praise! For wicked and deceitful mouths are opened against me, speaking against me with lying tongues. They encircle me with words of hate, and attack me without cause. In return for my love they accuse me, but I give myself to prayer. So they reward me evil for good, and hatred for my love. ...
Ezekiel 25:17
I will execute great vengeance on them with wrathful rebukes. Then they will know that I am the Lord, when I lay my vengeance upon them."
Vengeance is mine says the Lord , He is a Jealous God and STRONG LOVE does just that , His glory He will not give to another god ever ...
Quote from: sheila on September 09, 2016, 10:23:52 AM
that post didn't sound new age to me. Love isn't for sissies..love is as strong as death. Love has it's own discipline and fruit.
I know Eaglesway is capable of explaining himself, but I just hate when someone's words are so mishandled as this. I didn't see where he said love is for sissies.
The problem is when we ignore, brush over, or otherwise denigrate scripture to prop up our own version love, or how God demonstrates love, to make the Gospel what we want it to be, rather than how the Bible presents it. Over the course of 7 or 8 years believing in UR, I have had many conversations, read many articles and have learned so much from fellow UR believers. But, anyone who brushes off scripture, cherry picks or calls into question the validity of scripture they don't like have nothing to teach me about God or the Gospel.
Quote from: Seth on September 09, 2016, 06:13:02 PM
The problem is when we ignore, brush over, or otherwise denigrate scripture to prop up our own version love, or how God demonstrates love, to make the Gospel what we want it to be, rather than how the Bible presents it. Over the course of 7 or 8 years believing in UR, I have had many conversations, read many articles and have learned so much from fellow UR believers. But, anyone who brushes off scripture, cherry picks or calls into question the validity of scripture they don't like have nothing to teach me about God or the Gospel.
IN GENERAL, there's a wave of new age inspired (not
truly based on scripture, but on erroneous interpretations or dismissal altogether) beliefs permeating everything, but especially UR/"universalism". True Biblical UR, based upon the Holy Scriptures, should not be blended in with it. It can be difficult to recognize, because it is often "pretty", sounds good, ear tickling, and is dangerous because error can be easily fed into - it feels good. It appears there is a need for clearer demarcations, helping us be able to recognize the differences - something we can refer back to when necessary.
Quote from: Seth on September 09, 2016, 06:13:02 PM
Quote from: sheila on September 09, 2016, 10:23:52 AM
that post didn't sound new age to me. Love isn't for sissies..love is as strong as death. Love has it's own discipline and fruit.
I know Eaglesway is capable of explaining himself, but I just hate when someone's words are so mishandled as this. I didn't see where he said love is for sissies.
The problem is when we ignore, brush over, or otherwise denigrate scripture to prop up our own version love, or how God demonstrates love, to make the Gospel what we want it to be, rather than how the Bible presents it. Over the course of 7 or 8 years believing in UR, I have had many conversations, read many articles and have learned so much from fellow UR believers. But, anyone who brushes off scripture, cherry picks or calls into question the validity of scripture they don't like have nothing to teach me about God or the Gospel.
And I know Sheila is capable of explaining herself too, and I hate the same things you do. But she didn't brush off scripture , cherry pick or call into question the validity of any scripture. She never does that. And Eaglesway didn't say 'love is for sissies,' and Sheila didn't say he said that.
And I also agree with what Eaglesway said about judgement and discipline. Those are things I want in my life because they are for good, not something to fear if I'm trying to do right. And it does sound sweet and mushy wonderful, but that's what it is to me. I think when we think what others are going to think we start getting worried they will take it wrong and think anything goes.
Quote from Darryl, "Jesus is the Savior of the World. When Jesus died on the cross, and rose again, He redeemed ALL humanity..most do not realize this Wonderful Truth yet..but they will, in their time..whether in this life or the next....and, ultimately, ALL will be saved and reconciled to the Father...you, me . everybody who has ever lived..we will ALL be there, one day, with Jesus...praising Him for redeeming us and giving us the priceless gift of never ending life...this is what I believe the Bible says."
I just wanted to say this is how I believe too and it is wonderful. It brings peace and rest and love instead of fear.
since we're all speaking for each other lol :laugh: i'm not sure seth was directly talking about what sheila said with most of his post...but i may be wrong, so seth can now answer for himself. :dsunny:
:laughing7:
I wasn't talking about Sheila was doing with scripture, only in what way I agreed with him about the propensity of UR beluevers to ignore and even denigrate scripture in order to prop up a personal idea of the Gospel and thier own ideas of love substituted for those found in the Gospel.
BTW
Quote from: bushyQuote from Darryl, "Jesus is the Savior of the World. When Jesus died on the cross, and rose again, He redeemed ALL humanity..most do not realize this Wonderful Truth yet..but they will, in their time..whether in this life or the next....and, ultimately, ALL will be saved and reconciled to the Father...you, me . everybody who has ever lived..we will ALL be there, one day, with Jesus...praising Him for redeeming us and giving us the priceless gift of never ending life...this is what I believe the Bible says."
I just wanted to say this is how I believe too and it is wonderful. It brings peace and rest and love instead of fear.
:iagree:
But the scripture also says "it is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God." I can't ignore that. I can't ignore warnings that are clearly present in scripture just because I want to focus on the things that make me feel good. Not saying you do, but it is a trend in UR to do that even to the point of quesioning the validity of scripture.
Song91 has made 3 posts on this forum. All of the posts are of a positive nature. I for one found this last post not one about some disputable theology, rather a great personal story of how (he/she?) has received God's blessings. Each of us has our own story, and each one is different.
I hope Song91 sticks around, there is so much good on this website.
When I first started reading Tentmaker, there was a poster, julietang, who always signed off: "don't forget love"
DON'T FORGET LOVE
Pat
I do agree Panitak, let's not forget love. However, I find that I usually need to say things like "don't forget love" to people in some form of ET, who focus so much on a false form of judgment that they have no concept of the love of God. Then, on the other hand, there is a trend in UR that focuses so much on what THEY think love is, that they disregard judgment and wrath altogether. And then they tend to view people who point to scriptures about that subject as forgetting love. Actually, it is an attempt to recognize the balance provided in scripture, not to favor one thing over another.
For example, the Bible says "God gives grace to the humble and resists the proud." I have found in UR, that there are many that just want to focus on the first three words of that sentence, and just gloss over the remaining seven. And people who say "hey guys, there's seven more words there" tend to be treated as though they are forgetting about love.
Quote from: Seth on September 09, 2016, 08:03:29 PM
BTW
Quote from: bushyQuote from Darryl, "Jesus is the Savior of the World. When Jesus died on the cross, and rose again, He redeemed ALL humanity..most do not realize this Wonderful Truth yet..but they will, in their time..whether in this life or the next....and, ultimately, ALL will be saved and reconciled to the Father...you, me . everybody who has ever lived..we will ALL be there, one day, with Jesus...praising Him for redeeming us and giving us the priceless gift of never ending life...this is what I believe the Bible says."
I just wanted to say this is how I believe too and it is wonderful. It brings peace and rest and love instead of fear.
:iagree:
But the scripture also says "it is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God." I can't ignore that. I can't ignore warnings that are clearly present in scripture just because I want to focus on the things that make me feel good. Not saying you do, but it is a trend in UR to do that even to the point of quesioning the validity of scripture.
With scriptures there is always the counter scripture , and learning to discern just whom that WORD IS FOR and speaking too .....
I agree it is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the Living God ..
But also Phil 4 Think on These Things.............
7And the peace of God, which surpasses all understanding,
will guard your hearts and your minds in Christ Jesus.
8Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is right,
whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable — if anything is excellent or praiseworthy — think on these things.
9Whatever you have learned and received and heard from me, and seen in me, put these things into practice. And the God of peace will be with you....
People need to understand we are all examples too , how to be or not to be , this has always been what is in question .
If we judge we are to judge what is right in the sight of God ...
Mankind will never understand in his own thinking the ways of God , that the book is sealed to those that dwell in the carnal mind , it truly is an enmity to the SPIRIT Romans 8 Living in the Spirit.......
...6The mind of the flesh is death, but the mind of the Spirit is life and peace,
7because the mind of the flesh is hostile to God:
It does not submit to God's Law, nor can it do so.
8Those controlled by the flesh cannot please God.... but those whom keep the law of God are spirit born sons of God
1John ...8The one who practices sin is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the very start.
This is why the Son of God was revealed, to destroy the works of the devil.
9Anyone born of God refuses to practice sin,
because God's seed abides in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God.
10By this the children of God and the children of the devil
can be distinguished: Anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is anyone
who does not love his brother.... Why would the LIVING GOD tell us to love our brother and He not love them as well ? why would one kill his spiritual brother , by crushing his spirit ?
We are to admonish anyone found in sin and God is faithful and just to forgive them , when they confess their sins , I believe we are to do so as the scriptures says to .
Jesus told Peter about forgiveness , not just 7 times but 77 times ....... Do we never see or selves in the wrong ? BUT we are guilty of breaking one law we have broken them all ... leaving us undone ....
Matt 18 The Unforgiving Servant
21Then Peter came to Jesus and asked, "Lord, how many times shall I forgive my brother who sins against me? Up to seven times?" 22Jesus answered, "I tell you, not just seven times, but seventy-seven times! 23 Because of this, the kingdom of heaven is like a king who wanted to settle accounts with his servants....
25And of him having nothing to pay, the master commanded him to be sold, and the wife and children, and everything that he had, and payment to be made.
26Therefore the servant, having fallen down, was bowing on his knees to him, saying, 'Have patience with me, and I will pay everything to you.'
27And the master of that servant having been moved with compassion, released him and forgave him the debt.
28But the same servant having gone out, found one of his fellow servants who was owing him a hundred denarii,f and having seized him, he was throttling him, saying, 'Pay what you owe.'
29Therefore his fellow servant having fallen down, was begging him, saying, 'Have patience with me, and I will pay you.'
30But he was not willing. Rather, having gone, he cast him into prison until he should pay what was owed.
31Therefore his fellow servants having seen the things having taken place, were deeply grieved, and having gone, narrated to their master everything having taken place.
32Then his master having called him, says to him,
'Evil servant, I forgave you all that debt because you begged me.
33Did it not behoove you also to have
pitied your fellow servant, as I also had pitied you?' 34And having been angry, his master delivered him to the jailers, until that he should pay all being owed to him.
35Thus also My Heavenly Father will do to you, unless each of you forgives his brother from your heart."
Mercy always triumphs over judgment And until we actually practice that kind of righteousness and begin to master it ,
we will find as we judged so shall we be judged in that same measure . But Jesus said , Forgive them Father they do not know what they are doing .
Who is my brother ? whomever does Gods desire , I do believe everyone will come to their senses and glorify GOD in the end .
Our HOPE IS IN THE LIVING GOD and obedience does please Him ...
Quote from: rosered on September 09, 2016, 08:48:04 PM
With scriptures there is always the counter scripture , and learning to discern just whom that WORD IS FOR and speaking too .....
I agree it is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the Living God ..
But also Phil 4 Think on These Things.............
7And the peace of God, which surpasses all understanding,
will guard your hearts and your minds in Christ Jesus.
8Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is right,
whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable — if anything is excellent or praiseworthy — think on these things.
9Whatever you have learned and received and heard from me, and seen in me, put these things into practice. And the God of peace will be with you....
Yes, and I think we can both agree that "think on these things" does not mean "only think about this scripture and not on other scriptures." After all, Paul shows that he did some heavy thinking in Romans 1 about things which are not honorable and which were impure, if only to put them into focus when comparing them against what is lovely and admirable.
"Think on these things" doesn't mean ignore other things, right? It just means, think on these things.
Quote from: roseredPeople need to understand we are all examples too , how to be or not to be , this has always been what is in question .
If we judge we are to judge what is right in the sight of God ...
Mankind will never understand in his own thinking the ways of God , that the book is sealed to those that dwell in the carnal mind , it truly is an enmity to the SPIRIT Romans 8 Living in the Spirit.......
:thumbsup:
Quote from: roseredWhy would the LIVING GOD tell us to love our brother and He not love them as well ? why would one kill his spiritual brother , by crushing his spirit ? We are to admonish anyone found in sin and God is faithful and just to forgive them , when they confess their sins , I believe we are to do so as the scriptures says to .
Jesus told Peter about forgiveness , not just 7 times but 77 times ....... Do we never see or selves in the wrong ? BUT we are guilty of breaking one law we have broken them all ... leaving us undone ....
:thumbsup:
Quote from: rosered on September 09, 2016, 08:48:04 PM
Quote from: Seth on September 09, 2016, 08:03:29 PM
BTW
Quote from: bushyQuote from Darryl, "Jesus is the Savior of the World. When Jesus died on the cross, and rose again, He redeemed ALL humanity..most do not realize this Wonderful Truth yet..but they will, in their time..whether in this life or the next....and, ultimately, ALL will be saved and reconciled to the Father...you, me . everybody who has ever lived..we will ALL be there, one day, with Jesus...praising Him for redeeming us and giving us the priceless gift of never ending life...this is what I believe the Bible says."
I just wanted to say this is how I believe too and it is wonderful. It brings peace and rest and love instead of fear.
:iagree:
But the scripture also says "it is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God." I can't ignore that. I can't ignore warnings that are clearly present in scripture just because I want to focus on the things that make me feel good. Not saying you do, but it is a trend in UR to do that even to the point of quesioning the validity of scripture.
With scriptures there is always the counter scripture , and learning to discern just whom that WORD IS FOR and speaking too .....
I agree it is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the Living God ..
But also Phil 4 Think on These Things.............
7And the peace of God, which surpasses all understanding,
will guard your hearts and your minds in Christ Jesus.
8Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is right,
whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable — if anything is excellent or praiseworthy — think on these things.
9Whatever you have learned and received and heard from me, and seen in me, put these things into practice. And the God of peace will be with you....
People need to understand we are all examples too , how to be or not to be , this has always been what is in question .
If we judge we are to judge what is right in the sight of God ...
Mankind will never understand in his own thinking the ways of God , that the book is sealed to those that dwell in the carnal mind , it truly is an enmity to the SPIRIT Romans 8 Living in the Spirit.......
...6The mind of the flesh is death, but the mind of the Spirit is life and peace,
7because the mind of the flesh is hostile to God: It does not submit to God's Law, nor can it do so.
8Those controlled by the flesh cannot please God.... but those whom keep the law of God are spirit born sons of God
1John ...8The one who practices sin is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the very start.
This is why the Son of God was revealed, to destroy the works of the devil.
9Anyone born of God refuses to practice sin, because God's seed abides in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God.
10By this the children of God and the children of the devil can be distinguished: Anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is anyone who does not love his brother....
Why would the LIVING GOD tell us to love our brother and He not love them as well ? why would one kill his spiritual brother , by crushing his spirit ?
We are to admonish anyone found in sin and God is faithful and just to forgive them , when they confess their sins , I believe we are to do so as the scriptures says to .
Jesus told Peter about forgiveness , not just 7 times but 77 times ....... Do we never see or selves in the wrong ? BUT we are guilty of breaking one law we have broken them all ... leaving us undone ....
Matt 18 The Unforgiving Servant
21Then Peter came to Jesus and asked, "Lord, how many times shall I forgive my brother who sins against me? Up to seven times?" 22Jesus answered, "I tell you, not just seven times, but seventy-seven times! 23 Because of this, the kingdom of heaven is like a king who wanted to settle accounts with his servants....
25And of him having nothing to pay, the master commanded him to be sold, and the wife and children, and everything that he had, and payment to be made.
26Therefore the servant, having fallen down, was bowing on his knees to him, saying, 'Have patience with me, and I will pay everything to you.'
27And the master of that servant having been moved with compassion, released him and forgave him the debt.
28But the same servant having gone out, found one of his fellow servants who was owing him a hundred denarii,f and having seized him, he was throttling him, saying, 'Pay what you owe.'
29Therefore his fellow servant having fallen down, was begging him, saying, 'Have patience with me, and I will pay you.'
30But he was not willing. Rather, having gone, he cast him into prison until he should pay what was owed.
31Therefore his fellow servants having seen the things having taken place, were deeply grieved, and having gone, narrated to their master everything having taken place.
32Then his master having called him, says to him, 'Evil servant, I forgave you all that debt because you begged me.
33Did it not behoove you also to have pitied your fellow servant, as I also had pitied you?' 34And having been angry, his master delivered him to the jailers, until that he should pay all being owed to him.
35Thus also My Heavenly Father will do to you, unless each of you forgives his brother from your heart."
Mercy always triumphs over judgment And until we actually practice that kind of righteousness and begin to master it ,
we will find as we judged so shall we be judged in that same measure . But Jesus said , Forgive them Father they do not know what they are doing .
Who is my brother ? whomever does Gods desire , I do believe everyone will come to their senses and glorify GOD in the end .
Our HOPE IS IN THE LIVING GOD and obedience does please Him ...
Beautiful post rosered!
and my post was simply stating I didn't see any new age in that post....Love is the most powerful force in existence..it never fails..
perfect LOVE casts out fear..for fear hath torment. fear of death..fear of judgement..........we have to go on to perfection...
everyone get's corrected..He says God himself will finish your training...somethings,personally..I had to learn the hard way....
other's I avoided by heeding or seeing some-one else learn a hard lesson.
Quote from: Patinak on September 09, 2016, 08:24:53 PM
Song91 has made 3 posts on this forum. All of the posts are of a positive nature. I for one found this last post not one about some disputable theology, rather a great personal story of how (he/she?) has received God's blessings. Each of us has our own story, and each one is different.
I hope Song91 sticks around, there is so much good on this website.
When I first started reading Tentmaker, there was a poster, julietang, who always signed off: "don't forget love"
DON'T FORGET LOVE
Pat
AMEN !!!!!!!!! LOVE IS THE GREATEST THING OF'' ALL THINGS'' !!!
Scriptures testifies of it continually , GOD IS LOVE .
You will not have GOD IF you have not love , they are the SAME today as yesterday and tomorrow .
One of the biggest problems I had with UR was , Can it be true ? Does God love more than despising His own creation ?
and set to destroy everything , I could never understand the point of fear our whole lives of never getting it right with God and than making us suffer in this life and than suffer forever
I WAS SO WRONG about GOD !! That false image I had about God has been shattered and blasted to the 4 winds as dust and the serpents food ..
Only because I never understood that Love and mercy of God surpassed all the understanding a human being can muster up in his own mind .
God has to change our minds and hearts and make us a whole new creation in CHRIST .
Many say it is up to us , and others will say it is up to God , but the truth is , in my own consideration , a covenant is an agreement between both parties and cannot be valid with out both sides keeping their end of the agreement .
In our weakness God is our strength as the Spirit is willing but the flesh is weak , learning to walk in the Spirit is what we have to practice not just say it . and found as counted worthy of their calling
and that is depending and trusting in God to give the Spiritual growth and measure as He Alone sees fit to give it .
Quote from: sheila on September 09, 2016, 09:07:35 PM
and my post was simply stating I didn't see any new age in that post....Love is the most powerful force in existence..it never fails..
perfect LOVE casts out fear..for fear hath torment. fear of death..fear of judgement..........we have to go on to perfection...
everyone get's corrected..He says God himself will finish your training...somethings,personally..I had to learn the hard way....
other's I avoided by heeding or seeing some-one else learn a hard lesson.
yes !!! seasoned with salt and fire HOLY SPIRIT witness , that suffering for doing both good and evil , till the perfect comes !! :HeartThrob:
Love
1If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I have become a sounding brass or a clanging cymbal.
2And if I should have prophecy and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I should have all faith so as to remove mountains,
but have not love, I am nothing. 3And if I may give away all my possessions, and I may deliver up my body that I may boast,a
but have not love, I am profited nothing.
4
Love is patient, love is kind, love is not envious, it is not boastful, it is not puffed up. 5It does not act unbecomingly, it does not seek the things of its own, is not easily provoked, it keeps no account of wrongs. 6It does not delight at unrighteousness, but rejoices in the truth. 7It bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things. DESCRIBING LOVE OF GOD PERFECTLY HERE !
8Love never fails; but if there are prophesies, they will be done away; if there are tongues, they will be ceased; if there is knowledge it will pass away. 9For we know in part and we prophesy in part; 1
0but when the perfect should come, the partial will be done away.
11When I was a child, I was speaking like a child, I was thinking like a child, I was reasoning like a child; when I became a man, I did away with the things of the child. 12For presently we see through a glass in obscurity; but then, face to face. Presently, I know in part; but then I will know fully, even as I have been fully known.
13But now these three things abide: faith, hope, love; but the greatest of these is love.
1 John 4
17Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world. 18There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love. 19We love him, because he first loved us. 20If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen? 21And this commandment have we from him, That he who loveth God love his brother also.
In other words, my view being, if you love your brother you may have boldness in the day of judgment.
YES! Fear Not little flock...I have overcome the world!
Quote from: Seth on September 09, 2016, 09:14:41 PM
1 John 4
17Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world. 18There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love. 19We love him, because he first loved us. 20If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen? 21And this commandment have we from him, That he who loveth God love his brother also.
In other words, my view being, if you love your brother you may have boldness in the day of judgment.
WHAT IS THE DAY OF JUDGMENT SETH ?
There is a judgment coming called the Day of the Lord. There have been past days of the Lord, but there is also a coming one. Some will say to Jesus "Lord, Lord, look at all our miracles." And he will say to them, "I never knew you. Away from me ye who work iniquity." A day of judgment.
1 Thess 5:3
For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
---
Peace and safety? What's wrong with "peace?" What is wrong with "safety?" Those are good things right? But, what KIND of peace will they be talking about, and what kind of safety? Jesus said to be watchful, to take inventory, to be ready.
Quote from: Seth on September 09, 2016, 09:23:07 PM
There is a judgment coming called the Day of the Lord. There have been past days of the Lord, but there is also a coming one. Some will say to Jesus "Lord, Lord, look at all our miracles." And he will say to them, "I never knew you. Away from me ye who work iniquity." A day of judgment.
I AGREE , SOME will and some have , and some are going through it now .
JOHN 5 ...
Speaks of death being that judgment , Jesus Christ being the Lord of the dead and the living , both are held within HIM , HE has the power and authority over life and death
all things are made in Christ and are at HIS FEET Hebrews 10 Christ's Perfect Sacrifice
...12But when
this Priest had offered for all time one sacrifice for sins, He sat down at the right hand of God. 13Since that time, He waits for His enemies to be made a footstool for His feet, 14 because by a single offering
He has made perfect for all time those who are sanctified....15And the Holy Spirit also bears witness to us; for after having said before:
16"This is the covenant that I will make with them,
after those days, says the Lord,
putting My Laws into their hearts,
and I will inscribe them into their mind,"b
17and,
"Their sins and their lawless acts,
I will remember no more."
18Now where there is forgiveness of these,
no longer is there an offering for sin.9For this reason, since the day we heard about you, we have not stopped praying for you and asking God to fill you with the knowledge of His will in all spiritual wisdom and understanding,
10so that you may walk in a manner worthy of the Lord and may please Him in every way: bearing fruit in every good work, growing in the knowledge of God, 11being strengthened with all power according to His glorious might so that you may have full endurance and patience, and joyfully
12giving thanks to the Father, who has qualified youc to share in the inheritance of the saints in the light. 13He has rescued us from the dominion of darkness and brought us into the kingdom of His beloved Son,
14in whom we have redemption,
the forgiveness of sins.The Supremacy of Christ
(Hebrews 1:1-14)
15The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
16For in Him all things were created, things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities.
All things were created through Him and for Him.17
He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together. 18And He is the head of the body, the church; He is the beginning and firstborn from among the dead,
so that in all things He may have preeminence. 19For God was pleased to have all His fullness dwell in Him,
20
and through Him to reconcile to Himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through the blood of His cross.21Once you were alienated from God and were hostile in your minds because of your evil deeds.
22But now He has reconciled you by Christ's physical body through death to present you holy, unblemished, and blameless in His presence— 23if indeed you continue in your faith, established and firm, not moved from the hope of the gospel you heard, which has been proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul, have become a servant.
(2 Corinthians 11:16-33)
24
Now I rejoice in my sufferings for you, and I fill up in my flesh what is lacking in regard to Christ's afflictions for the sake of His body, which is the church. 25I became its servant by the commission
God gave me to fully proclaim to you the word of God, 26
the mystery that was hidden for ages and generations but is now revealed to His saints, 27to whom God has chosen to make known
among the Gentiles the glorious riches of this mystery, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory.28
We proclaim Him, admonishing and teaching everyone with all wisdom, so that we may present everyone perfect in Christ. 29To this end I labor, striving with all His energy working powerfully within me. Understanding these things by the Holy Spirit of Life is that promise we are all clinging too in my humbled opinion .
If I were to put that together, what you have presented, I would say, just like so MANY MANY examples in the Old Testament show, that God starts with forbearance and long-suffering. He is slow to anger, but it doesn't mean he has no anger. And "anger" shouldn't be, in my opinion, analyzed according to human emotion which is difficult to do because we tend to filter our experience through emotion.
So anyway, it starts with forbearance and long suffering. After that is ignored, despised and trampled on, there is wrath and resistance, until all are led to the well to drink. That is how I believe all these seeming counter-scriptures work together toward a whole.
That is what I believe true Biblical UR is, taking all the scriptures and seeing them work toward the whole.
that's talking about the secound coming....he who seeks to save his natural/corrupt image life will lose it[the natural life] he who loses
his life for the sake of the kingdom of Heaven[raised up in incorruption] shall find it.like a woman in travail=a whole nation[spiritual
Israel of God.].born on that DAY. ye are ALL the children of light and the children of the DAY;we are not of the night or of darkness.
for God hath not appointed us to wrath but to obtain salvation by Our Lord Jesus Christ...who died for us..that whether we wake or sleep
we should live togather with Him. all of natural man loses his natural life for the sake of the Kingdom of Heaven...whether willingly or
not. we are awaiting Him..many are asleep...
the nations are wrathful..and Your wrath is come...why are the nations wrathful? because satan knows his time is short..........
words out...all men saved and to recieve eternal salvation..he's lost his position as prosecutor in heaven...the time of his torment
judgement has come..as well as the approaching great deliverance of all men.....
that man's spirit return unto Father and the incorruptible /immortal in God's and Christ's image live.
I don't see Satan as a prosecutor, but as an accuser. A prosecutor serves justice in a courtroom with evidence and many times with truth on his side. Then, a jury or judge can decide based on the evidence. An accuser just accuses, sometimes not truthfully. God never needed a prosecutor to dispense justice or judgment. He can do that by himself. I don't see any evidence in the Bible that Satan's presence is a key necessity for that.
In other words, removing Satan does not remove God's judgment.
I believe that the judgement of the world is the Cross, not as a PAST event, but as the destruction of the carnal man within. I do believe that when someone believes and confesses all past sins are blotted out. But, God does not need a prosecutor to see the current truth in front of his eyes. Yes the time is indeed approaching for all men to be saved, and yet some must pass through the fire and suffer loss.
:thumbsup: accusor is a better word.
Quote from: sheila on September 09, 2016, 09:18:22 PM
YES! Fear Not little flock...I have overcome the world!
The little flock is made up of those who have forsaken all to follow Him.
time ago, at first I argued with UR believers and said that God did send human beings to hell forever but, gradually, I saw the light...it takes time because I was suffering from being brainwashed ...yes, even now sometimes I still find myself drifting back to belief in eternal hell because I believed it so long...then, I go pray and read the positive scriptures and the fear leaves me...I cannot be too hard on hellists because I have been the same..so forgive me hellists for being harsh and impatient for you to embrace Universal Reconciliation..UR is just such a better thing to believe and it DOES have scriptural backing..I suspect many pastors don't believe in UR though...still, I pray they hold out the HOPE that ALL are ultimately reconciled to God at the very least. Dear hellists, please, do not believe God torments/punishes human beings forever !. :dsunny:
Loosing'' friends '' over the UR message is nothing new to me lol ..
Treated like a leper or totally deceived and not to go near ... Even some in the UR fold , this has happened .
I have forsaken all , Because of the peace Jesus Christ has given surpasses all human understanding and reasoning .
The carnal mind is the enemy and holds captive the fear of death and the 10 thousands of divisions chopping us all to shreds
I have certainly considered the Holy Spirit, so holy / pure as to even keep our own [carnal minds from touching those holy things of God ] being sealed up
within us [as Gods possessions and treasures in earthen vessels , as death[carnal minds ] keeps its hold and giving the outward appearance as still unclean .
[ that unholy still] that every human being judges and is corruptible and called the body of death , all human beings have placed their trust in at some time or the other , till it fails you utterly and learn not to trust in it at all , till you quit touching the unclean thing within yourself or in others ,
it is the human wisdom of the world that has always failed the test of time and place and the very reason Jesus Christ come and manifested itself to destroy the ''works of the devil'' being the adversary to Gods will , it is a human spirit as in Adam all die and are dead works , being useless and vain ... the knowledge of good and evil tree in which death come upon all as the serpent / carnal mind / beast tempts every one with and sees this as the only life , being 70 years of dying from the day of birth to ''get it right with God '' .
and likewise unable to obtain , Till Christ comes , Christ means the anointing Light to shine in the dark places of the human heart , that is desperately wicked above all else and who can know it ? [what human being can ever know the ways of God when it is kept from him all the days of his human existence/life ?
Evil hides itself in the human heart , the Bible calls it the evil one ruling the human heart , and this protection of God is the sweet prayers of Jesus taught us how to keep us from it , by the secret prayers to the Father in private that no man knows about , not even your own man of sin /error.
Because the TRUTH is perfect and complete and HOLY pure WORD OF GOD LIVING THING all by itself and what has been Gathered into ITSELF
and that is the simplicity in Christ, to me, founded by faith , hope and Love
When the Word of God is anointed by Gods own Spirit of truth it becomes a LIVING THING working within you ..
No longer dead letters of the law to JUDGE with and divide with and pollute and destroy with . and use as a weapon to KILL with .
This great war of WORDS is the divisions between the Wisdom of God over the wisdom of the world and separates us all , Cutting asunder by the SWORD OF THE SPIRIT dividing between the soul /mind / womb of mankind [that ruler of the heart ] and the spirit of GOD , a very painful process in my own opinion , as the deadly wound is healed [beastly knowledge of the world /mind of mankind as cut off ] and given the soul , mind of Christ /anointing of the Father in the pure Light of Life , this is the woman part of Adam [Gen 1 ] and the womb for the new birth to begin in us ,
a new creation and new creatures in Christ
Paul was given some excellent revelations of Christ , being blinded , in the coming of Christ to him , he could no longer see as he did before , putting to death the old man of sin when it would rise up carnally and beastly to rule over his body of death
the tree of knowledge of good and evil [ law of life and death ] had been removed and God planted the tree of Life in him ,[LIVING WORD OF GOD ] when He longer knew NOTHING but Jesus Christ and Him crucified , from that point on it was a straight path and way that leads to LIFE IN CHRIST .
Jesus come to die on the cross / baptism of death to the world, and tasting death for every man and saving that which was lost and to bring HOLY SPIRIT AND FIRE upon the whole world by poring out His OWN SPIRIT on all flesh and dissolving the elements [Hebrews 6] by removing the veil by His own flesh body 2Cor 3 But whenever someone turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away!
destroying evil by the breath of His coming BY LIGHT AND LIFE , THIS NEW THING was ALL OF GOD HIMSELF ,,,
The new covenant promises of God would come to the holy ones born of water and Spirit Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God[ John 3 ] by the blood of Jesus Christ covering them , this grace was going to be the sufficient sacrifice of great grace for all time and the inheritance of His new creation to be fulfilled in being His own possession and perfect work and will not give His glory to another , GOD is a consuming fire and in His jealousy will not give His glory to another .
By the Spirit of prophecy being the testimony of Jesus Christ /WORD OF GOD new and living way working in those given the new heavens and earth Mind/heaven to dwell on the holy things of Gods desire and earth tasting GOD and knowing His goodness / Body of Christ , eat my body and drink my blood that you may have LIFE in You.....
And is still being fulfilled to This very Day and hour , but the mind of man cannot see it in the natural eyes, it is hidden from his sight , being blinded by the veil till it be removed completely in Christ by CHRIST coming to them by the Light and Life of the Living WORD working in them by the SPIRIT OF THE LIVING GOD ..
I know the Lord said that do not worry about who can kill the body , but whom can destroy both the soul and body in Gehenna fire , the great fire of Gods jealousy and correction the Babylons end ,, all spoken of the in the revealing of JESUS CHRIST [ all of Revelation REVEALING OF CHRIST ON THE DAY OF THE LORD ] by the SPIRIT AND WORD OF TRUTH ] destroying everything that offends and keeps the VILE LIE against God going on from the beginning.
Fear God Alone
(Luke 12:4-7)
26Therefore you should not fear them! For nothing is concealed that will not be revealed, or hidden that will not be known. 27 What I tell you in the darkness, speak in the light; and what you hear in the ear, proclaim upon the housetops![ THE VEIL REMOVED AND SEEING CHRIST IN ALL HIS GLORY ]
28And you should not be afraid of those killing the body but not being able to kill the soul. Indeed rather you should fear the One being able to destroy both soul and body in Gehenna. [THE FIRE OF GODS JEALOUSY and what belongs to HIM ONLY ]
29Are not two sparrows sold for an assarion?b And not one of them will fall to the ground apart from your Father. 30And even the hairs of your head are all numbered. 31Therefore you should not fear; you are worth more than many sparrows.
Confessing Christ
(Luke 12:8-12)
32Therefore everyone who will confess in Me before men, I also will confess in him before My Father in the heavens. 33And whoever shall deny Me before men, I also will deny him before My Father in the heavens.
The Sword of the Gospel
(Luke 12:49-53)
34Do not think that I came to bring peace to the earth; I came not to bring peace, but a sword. 35For I came to set at variance
'A man against his father,
and a daughter against her mother,
and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law,
36and the enemies of the man are his own household.'
The great dividing within us all by the SWORD OF THE SPIRIT which is the word of God THAT ALL TRUTH REIGNS SUPREME .
the WORD OF GOD wages war in heaven Rev 12
I will fight against you with the Sword of my Mouth , rev 2 15In the same way, some of you also hold to the teaching of the Nicolaitans
. 16 Therefore repent! Otherwise I will come to you shortly and wage war against them with the sword of My mouth.
17 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To the one who is victorious, I will give the hidden manna. I will also give him a white stone inscribed with a new name, known only to the one who receives it....
7 is the completeness of GODS WISDOM Proverbs 9 [seven pillars 7 churches and seven eyes and 7 spirits and in 7 everything is numbered and multiplied and summed up in TRUTH and in Revelations fulfilling all things by the Testimony of Jesus Christ by the Spirit of prophecy :HeartThrob:
Spoken of in the old as Psalms 119 167 The sum of Thy word is truth, And to the age is every judgment of Thy righteousness!
Quote from: rosered on September 30, 2016, 02:09:24 PM
Gehenna fire , the great fire of Gods jealousy and correction
:thumbsup: :thumbsup: This is the best description of "gehenna (fire)" I have ever read! :thumbsup:
Quote from: Seth on September 09, 2016, 09:30:58 PM
1 Thess 5:3
For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
---
Peace and safety? What's wrong with "peace?" What is wrong with "safety?" Those are good things right? But, what KIND of peace will they be talking about, and what kind of safety? Jesus said to be watchful, to take inventory, to be ready.
Amen.. what the world does not understand is "peace and safety" are great things!
But, man is trying to be God.. deciding good and evil, etc.. and is trying and will try to bring about "peace and safety" (world peace? and
dominion/domination :mshock: )
Peace without God the Holy Creator and sustainer! Mankind has shoved God aside.. The great move toward 'world peace' is embraced by western civilization, which at one time was called "Christendom" until over the decades has fallen under a great delusion and has asked (and demanded) that God and Jesus be gone from the culture.. Which culture now of course has a cup pretty full of the side effects of all this. The dissolution of family.. the embracing of "perversions, fornication, murder"/abortions, etc.. Which cup will be fully drank from and digested.. (apocalypse, as what is metaphorically called "crashing and burning" will be
the unveiling of how God is right about all things.. not man. God rules, not man. Man's works, not built on the Rock can only, ever, 'crash and burn'.)
"That they may know that You, whose name alone is the Lord, are the Most High over all the earth." - Ps 83:18...the day of the LORD comes as a thief, unexpectedly, when they are saying "Peace, and safety, security (reliability, firmness)"..
:thumbsup:
We know that we cannot depend on what the world considers peace and safety because...
"All flesh is as grass, the flower fades, the grass withers, the wind blows it away"
I think the thief in its ultimate form is death, which can come at anytime, so we watch and pray and walk in the light as children of the day because that is where our peace is secured...Death brings everyone finally, into the Day
43But understand this: If the owner of the house had known in which watch of the night the thief was coming, he would have kept watch and would not have let his house be broken into.
But kno one knows the hour..
"Yea, tho I walk through the valley of the shadow of death I will fear no evil"
The thief can steal nothing meaningful from anyone who is abiding in Christ. Our life is hidden with Christ in God.
Perhaps we all will have some measure of wood, hay and stubble that will disappear in the light of His countenance like mists as the dawn rises toward the full day, but our gold, silver and precious stone, the foundations of love towards God, love towards one another, and faith in His kingdom will secure our lives forever.
38 For I am persuaded that neither death nor life, nor angels nor principalities nor powers, nor things present nor things to come, 39 nor height nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord
Quote from: rosered on September 30, 2016, 02:09:24 PM
Loosing" friends " over the UR message is nothing new to me lol ..
Treated like a leper or totally deceived and not to go near ... Even some in the UR fold , this has happened .
I have forsaken all , Because of the peace Jesus Christ has given surpasses all human understanding and reasoning .
The carnal mind is the enemy and holds captive the fear of death and the 10 thousands of divisions chopping us all to shreds
I have certainly considered the Holy Spirit, so holy / pure as to even keep our own [carnal minds from touching those holy things of God ] being sealed up
within us [as Gods possessions and treasures in earthen vessels , as death[carnal minds ] keeps its hold and giving the outward appearance as still unclean .
[ that unholy still] that every human being judges and is corruptible and called the body of death , all human beings have placed their trust in at some time or the other , till it fails you utterly and learn not to trust in it at all , till you quit touching the unclean thing within yourself or in others ,
it is the human wisdom of the world that has always failed the test of time and place and the very reason Jesus Christ come and manifested itself to destroy the "works of the devil" being the adversary to Gods will , it is a human spirit as in Adam all die and are dead works , being useless and vain ... the knowledge of good and evil tree in which death come upon all as the serpent / carnal mind / beast tempts every one with and sees this as the only life , being 70 years of dying from the day of birth to "get it right with God " .
and likewise unable to obtain , Till Christ comes , Christ means the anointing Light to shine in the dark places of the human heart , that is desperately wicked above all else and who can know it ? [what human being can ever know the ways of God when it is kept from him all the days of his human existence/life ?
Evil hides itself in the human heart , the Bible calls it the evil one ruling the human heart , and this protection of God is the sweet prayers of Jesus taught us how to keep us from it , by the secret prayers to the Father in private that no man knows about , not even your own man of sin /error.
Because the TRUTH is perfect and complete and HOLY pure WORD OF GOD LIVING THING all by itself and what has been Gathered into ITSELF
and that is the simplicity in Christ, to me, founded by faith , hope and Love
When the Word of God is anointed by Gods own Spirit of truth it becomes a LIVING THING working within you ..
No longer dead letters of the law to JUDGE with and divide with and pollute and destroy with . and use as a weapon to KILL with .
This great war of WORDS is the divisions between the Wisdom of God over the wisdom of the world and separates us all , Cutting asunder by the SWORD OF THE SPIRIT dividing between the soul /mind / womb of mankind [that ruler of the heart ] and the spirit of GOD , a very painful process in my own opinion , as the deadly wound is healed [beastly knowledge of the world /mind of mankind as cut off ] and given the soul , mind of Christ /anointing of the Father in the pure Light of Life , this is the woman part of Adam [Gen 1 ] and the womb for the new birth to begin in us ,
a new creation and new creatures in Christ
Paul was given some excellent revelations of Christ , being blinded , in the coming of Christ to him , he could no longer see as he did before , putting to death the old man of sin when it would rise up carnally and beastly to rule over his body of death
the tree of knowledge of good and evil [ law of life and death ] had been removed and God planted the tree of Life in him ,[LIVING WORD OF GOD ] when He longer knew NOTHING but Jesus Christ and Him crucified , from that point on it was a straight path and way that leads to LIFE IN CHRIST .
Jesus come to die on the cross / baptism of death to the world, and tasting death for every man and saving that which was lost and to bring HOLY SPIRIT AND FIRE upon the whole world by poring out His OWN SPIRIT on all flesh and dissolving the elements [Hebrews 6] by removing the veil by His own flesh body 2Cor 3 But whenever someone turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away!
destroying evil by the breath of His coming BY LIGHT AND LIFE , THIS NEW THING was ALL OF GOD HIMSELF ,,,
The new covenant promises of God would come to the holy ones born of water and Spirit Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God[ John 3 ] by the blood of Jesus Christ covering them , this grace was going to be the sufficient sacrifice of great grace for all time and the inheritance of His new creation to be fulfilled in being His own possession and perfect work and will not give His glory to another , GOD is a consuming fire and in His jealousy will not give His glory to another .
By the Spirit of prophecy being the testimony of Jesus Christ /WORD OF GOD new and living way working in those given the new heavens and earth Mind/heaven to dwell on the holy things of Gods desire and earth tasting GOD and knowing His goodness / Body of Christ , eat my body and drink my blood that you may have LIFE in You.....
And is still being fulfilled to This very Day and hour , but the mind of man cannot see it in the natural eyes, it is hidden from his sight , being blinded by the veil till it be removed completely in Christ by CHRIST coming to them by the Light and Life of the Living WORD working in them by the SPIRIT OF THE LIVING GOD ..
I know the Lord said that do not worry about who can kill the body , but whom can destroy both the soul and body in Gehenna fire , the great fire of Gods jealousy and correction the Babylons end ,, all spoken of the in the revealing of JESUS CHRIST [ all of Revelation REVEALING OF CHRIST ON THE DAY OF THE LORD ] by the SPIRIT AND WORD OF TRUTH ] destroying everything that offends and keeps the VILE LIE against God going on from the beginning.
Fear God Alone
(Luke 12:4-7)
26Therefore you should not fear them! For nothing is concealed that will not be revealed, or hidden that will not be known. 27 What I tell you in the darkness, speak in the light; and what you hear in the ear, proclaim upon the housetops![ THE VEIL REMOVED AND SEEING CHRIST IN ALL HIS GLORY ]
28And you should not be afraid of those killing the body but not being able to kill the soul. Indeed rather you should fear the One being able to destroy both soul and body in Gehenna. [THE FIRE OF GODS JEALOUSY and what belongs to HIM ONLY ]
29Are not two sparrows sold for an assarion?b And not one of them will fall to the ground apart from your Father. 30And even the hairs of your head are all numbered. 31Therefore you should not fear; you are worth more than many sparrows.
Confessing Christ
(Luke 12:8-12)
32Therefore everyone who will confess in Me before men, I also will confess in him before My Father in the heavens. 33And whoever shall deny Me before men, I also will deny him before My Father in the heavens.
The Sword of the Gospel
(Luke 12:49-53)
34Do not think that I came to bring peace to the earth; I came not to bring peace, but a sword. 35For I came to set at variance
'A man against his father,
and a daughter against her mother,
and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law,
36and the enemies of the man are his own household.'
The great dividing within us all by the SWORD OF THE SPIRIT which is the word of God THAT ALL TRUTH REIGNS SUPREME .
the WORD OF GOD wages war in heaven Rev 12
I will fight against you with the Sword of my Mouth , rev 2 15In the same way, some of you also hold to the teaching of the Nicolaitans
. 16 Therefore repent! Otherwise I will come to you shortly and wage war against them with the sword of My mouth.
17 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To the one who is victorious, I will give the hidden manna. I will also give him a white stone inscribed with a new name, known only to the one who receives it....
7 is the completeness of GODS WISDOM Proverbs 9 [seven pillars 7 churches and seven eyes and 7 spirits and in 7 everything is numbered and multiplied and summed up in TRUTH and in Revelations fulfilling all things by the Testimony of Jesus Christ by the Spirit of prophecy :HeartThrob:
Spoken of in the old as Psalms 119 167 The sum of Thy word is truth, And to the age is every judgment of Thy righteousness!
:thumbsup: :banana: :dsunny:
Quote from: eaglesway on February 13, 2015, 04:58:52 AM
"it is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God."
2Sa 24:14 And David said unto Gad, I am in a great strait: let us fall now into the hand of the LORD; for his mercies [are] great: and let me not fall into the hand of man.
It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of God, but not as fearful as falling into the hands of men who have no mercy. This verse does not speak of ET, but for his mercy in the midst of judgement/punishment.
:thumbsup: May my tongue cleave to the roof of my mouth if I remember not Jerusalem! I have engraven
thee on the palm of my hand. sounds good to me! He's got the whole world..in His hands..He's got the whole
wide world..in His hands.....I'd rather be in My creator's hands then anywhere else!!! He knows my
broken parts..and He knows how to heal me. and He knows how to give more abundant honor to my
uncomely parts!!!
Quote from: Pig on February 14, 2017, 10:59:06 PM
Quote from: eaglesway on February 13, 2015, 04:58:52 AM
"it is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God."
2Sa 24:14 And David said unto Gad, I am in a great strait: let us fall now into the hand of the LORD; for his mercies [are] great: and let me not fall into the hand of man.
It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of God, but not as fearful as falling into the hands of men who have no mercy. This verse does not speak of ET, but for his mercy in the midst of judgement/punishment.
:thumbsup:
Amen! :iagree: :thumbsup:
Quote from: Searching_For_The_Truth on February 13, 2015, 04:07:53 AM
How would you respond if an ET'er uses the following verses of Hebrews 10 to assert that eternal torment is just and fair.
Hebrews 10:26-31
26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
David chose the wrath of God over that of his enemies because God is more merciful than his human enemies. Why hen do we imagine that God is less merciful?