Hebrews 10 Fierdy Indignation

[Searching_For_The_Truth]

How would you respond if an ET'er uses the following verses of Hebrews 10 to assert that eternal torment is just and fair.

Hebrews 10:26-31

26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:

29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.

31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

[eaglesway]

If you read those verses with a presumption that judgment lasts forever, it supports an ET paradigm. But where there does it say anything about eternal torment? The judgment of God is fearsome, and our God IS a consuming fire, but there is nothing in these verses that overrule all the verses that say God will ultimately reconcile all, even His adversaries. Especially Col 1:15-20 and 1 Cor 15:22-28.

[Seth]

How would you respond if an ET'er uses the following verses of Hebrews 10 to assert that eternal torment is just and fair.

Hebrews 10:26-31

26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:

29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.

31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

That's the thing. I don't reason with ETers on what is just and fair, but what the Bible says and what it does not say. If an ETer says "Eternal Torment is fair because Hebrews 10" my response is the same as Eaglesway, where does Hebrews 10 mention anything about eternal torment?

[joeteekay]

Concordant Literal Version -
Heb. 10:26 For at our sinning voluntarily after obtaining the recognition of the truth, it is no longer leaving a sacrifice concerned with sins,
27 but a certain fearful waiting for judging and fiery jealousy, about to be eating the hostile.
28 Anyone repudiating Moses' law is dying without pity on the testimony of two or three witnesses.
29 Of how much worse punishment, [Gk: timoria],  are you supposing, will he be counted worthy who tramples on the Son of God, and deems the blood of the covenant by which he is hallowed contaminating, and outrages the spirit of grace?

This is a most powerful Scripture to be sure, but it does not speak of "eternal" punishment as Eaglesway and Seth point out, and it is the only scripture in the entirety of the new testament that uses the correct translation "punishment", [Gk: timoria], with reference to punishing sinners!

Those who have committed the above sin towards the Lord are few.  To have been called into a personal relationship with Christ, and then reject Him as Lord and Saviour is very grievous.  Very few in this category.  Maybe Judas is one?  Most of humanity that will be judged in the lake of fire have never even heard of Jesus Christ, let alone, "trodden underfoot the Son of God, and counted the blood of the covenant, an unholything, and done despite unto the Spirit of grace."

Most have never even heard of such sins, let alone committed them.


Yes we read in Heb. 10:26, "For if we sin willfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remains no more sacrifice for sins,"?

That's true, but that does not doom that person to an eternal punishment and torture in some hell. "But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries" (Heb. 10:27).

Yes, there are sins that will not be forgiven in this lifetime, but will rather be judged in the day of God's Judgment upon the whole wicked world. That will not be a happy time for those who will have their sins judged in that manner, but neither will it be an ET situation.

[eaglesway]

Excellent post!

[joeteekay]

Thanks EW  :ty:

[micah7:9]

 :dsunny:

[darryl]

How would you respond if an ET'er uses the following verses of Hebrews 10 to assert that eternal torment is just and fair.

Hebrews 10:26-31

26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:

29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.

31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

'will be counted worthy'..doesn't mean they'll get said punishment.

[sheila]

everyone needs to realize His great great LOVE for man.  His word is like fire...in that it will will consume/dross/tares of the adversary

even satan.....that seek to destroy the grace He has given His children. So, your adversary and mine..best beware of Father's indignation

  that he be handing his children serpents and stones..and they do tremble...and know the time of their torment is at hand.

   the adversary knows when God chose grace and salvation for man..and nailed the law to the cross..that they had no legal

right to plague His children[men] Under the old law covenant they could plague those who disobeyed..........


   sift like  wheat..is what satan demanded...but Jesus said..fear not.....not one of the hairs of your head will fall to the earth.

   only chaff and tare seed will fall to the earth..but the Word of God come in flesh will stand TRUE..even the salvation of all men.

   see His eyes of fire in revelation? How HE watches the works of the adversary as it infiltrates His church...and see the final end of His

church/bride..without spot or blemish. The intensity of His LOVE will accomplish this. Don't you doubt it for a moment..nothing

will thwart His purpose.....even if He must hand the church over to satan for the destruction of the flesh/chaff/tares that the spirit

   [wheat]be saved on His DAY[Laodecia]..the flesh counts for nothing......and ALL must be delivered from this body undergoing

this death. His zeal[intense LOVE] will accomplish this.

   BUT IF WE DO SIN...WE HAVE AN ADVOCATE...............some men's sins precede them to judgement[before GRACE GIVEN]

some men's sins after.  the man of lawlessness[without  spirit of LOVE/God] even the spirit of the adversary..will not learn

righteousness even when Grace is shown...but will continue with his wicked works to his own destruction.....even devouring

and putting to death those whom God made atonement for and gave Grace to.[spirit willing/flesh weak,desire to do good/evil present]


  WHO WILL DELIVER US FROM THIS BODY UNDERGOING THIS DEATH?   the enemy falls on the border of Israel...keep the

commandments of the Holy spirit..that you enjoy spiritual health...abstain from fornication,idolatry,blood and things strangled

  this is your border...this is what turns the enemy back at the gate[that the enemy may not enter you/but be without/even though

he surround you[camp of Holy city] May His spirit be burning hot in you/and your flesh cold as dead


    those with an unjust pair of scales[grace to some..He does not take away all sin] are already infiltrated with a cheating pair of scales.

   the spirit of iniquity is in them[all bound up in disobedience that grace be given to all] but where iniquity abounds,grace abounds all

  the more. He counted the cost to Himself..before He set His heart on delivering man..and though it 'appear" the adversary has

been victorious[just as when they put Him to death on the cross]  it is quite to the contrary. Death has no sting..O'Death I shall

be thy plague. I AM THE RESURRECTION..and though man be as sheep led to slaughter..not one of them shall be missing!

   

[eaglesway]

24 Wretched man that I am! Who will set me free from the body of this death? 25 Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, on the one hand I myself with my mind am serving the law of God, but on the other, with my flesh the law of sin.

Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death.

Through the administration of the fulness of times God is gathering all men into one in Christ Jesus(Eph 1:9,10; John 12:2, Romans 11:32-36)

It has been a process through the ages.

The law was given well into that process, as Paul said, "To mke sin more sinful(meaning to make it evident/manifest what is good and what is evil).

The law was not sufficient- and it was not meant to be. So it was burned up. Nailed to a tree. Killed. Cast into the fire and anulled. Swallowed up by that which it foreshadowed.

It was a stage. Israel was not the final product either- it was never meant to be. It was a prototype, almost a stick drawing compared to what God is revealing through the church to the principalities and powers in the heavenlu realms. Compared to the revelation of the children of God....compared to the kingdom of God and the all in all.

The church(general assembly of the firstborn registered in heaven) is also a stage. It is not the final product either. It is the first fruit of the harvest. The harvest is "all" in the ages to come. In this age it is the ecclesia, the first fruits.

Those who are not "in Christ" are "in Adam". All who are in Christ have passed from death unto life.

All who are in Adam are still under the reign of death. When the administration of the fulness of times is fulfilled, all will be "in Christ" and God will be all in all.

There is no "unjust scale" in declaring that there will be judgment for the wicked on the great day. Jesus declared it. Paul declared it. Peter declared it. Jude declared it. James declared it.

It is not an unjust scale because whatever aionios kolassis and aionian pyr represent- they will accomplish the same things in those who experience them that fiery trials and tribulations are accomplishing in us in this life.

It is not unjust that God reproves the wicked in this life. When we speak of God's love we have to include the scriptures which say, "God disciplines every son whom He receives."

It is for discipline that we endure.

So, is it an "unjust scale" to declare that God will have a fiery trial for the wicked who denied His grace and love in this life? Those who laughed at His righteousness and consumed His creation like bread?

No, it is not- because God has Himself declared it through the apostles and the prophets. Some will be saved through the breakers that will roll over them in the presence of God when they cry out to the rocks to hide them from His face- bt that is ok.

In fact it is wonderful.

All correction is for the purpose of reclamation, redemption, reconciliation, revelation and restoration.

To portray those who declare the wrath to come as having false scales is the same as saying none of the prophets or apostles understood the word of God.

To characterize them, or anyone else who believes in aionios pyr and aionios kolassis as condemning men is not accurate. All the apsotles understood universal reconciliation.

They also understood that there would be a process of correction involved in the accomplishment of the full harvest. Its already so now. There is nothing at all eggregious about stating that it will continue in the age to come until the last adversary if cast into the lake of fire.

A good question is this.

If the lake of fire is the second death, how is death cast into it. How does death consume death- since a house divided cannot stand and if Satan casts out Satan he cannot stand according to Jesus Himself.

Only Life and immortality can consume death.

"O death where is thy sting.....Death is swallowed up by immortality"

Punishment and correction are different, altho there can be an element of punishment in correction- punishment is not always for correction.

But in Christ correction is always the goal of any punishment- and there is punishment.

"You shall not escape until you have paid the last penny"

"If after you have gone to your brother with two witnesses, if he does not repent, take him before the whole church and let him become as an unbeliever"- thats Jesus talking btw.

"I hav decided to deliver such a one over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh so that his spirit may be saved in the Day."

David said, in Psalm 32

"How blessed is the man to whom the LORD does not impute iniquity, And in whose spirit there is no deceit! 3When I kept silent about my sin, my body wasted away Through my groaning all day long. 4For day and night Your hand was heavy upon me; My vitality was drained away as with the fever heat of summer. Selah...."

Seems he spent some time in his own little lake of fire.

This is the same as Romans 7 and 8... if we are in Adam, refusing to confess....if we are in Christ but set upon the flesh

The hand of the Lord will rest heavy upon us- TO DELIVER US.

"Who shall deliver me from the body of this death"

We ought not confuse declaring the process of correction with a failure to understand God's love because God corrects every son He receives- for their edification.

Therefore it makes sense to me that if God corrects the wicked who persist in their hardness. If God honors His word that HE IS NOT MOCKED, in the age to come- it will not be because He does not love them.

It will be because they locked themselves into a state of being by their persistent wickedness that will take fire to burn thorugh from within.

This is why we need to be honest and humble before Him when He corrects us. This why we are to let no root of bitterness spring up. This is why we are not to allow wilful persistent sins to be committed by members of the assembly. It allows roots to become trees of defilement that must have an axe laid to their root so they can be cast into the fire.

THEY DO NOT GET CAST INTO THE FIRE JUST AS REVENGE FOR THEIR INIQUITY. They get cast into the fire because they must start from scratch. Get back to the undefiled SEED. Return to their FIRST LOVE. PEEL BACK THE VEIL OF THEIR SELF-SUFFICIENCY and SELF WILL. The fire separates out THE ALLOYS- strong things mixed throughout the inner parts that men think are good but are actually evil.

3When I kept silent about my sin, my body wasted away Through my groaning all day long. 4For day and night Your hand was heavy upon me; My vitality was drained away as with the fever heat of summer. Selah....

Behold both the kindness and the severity of the Father- All of it proceeds from HIS LOVE. All of it PROCEEDS FROM HIS GRACE.

This is what the writer means when He says , "If the righteous scarcely be saved where shall the godless and the ssinner appear?"

They will appear before the throne of God on the Day God judges the secrets of men's hearts through Jesus Christ. I believe many, maybe even most will bow the knee immediatley- but I also believe that many will not, and some will also find themselves unable, because of the defilement that has grown up within their bones and is twisted throughout their soul and spirit. God is not mocked, He warns for a reason.

We speak as if it is about arbitrary values and law, but it is about life. How a tree grows. How the ground goes fallow. How fruit gets poisoned. How a predator becomes untouched by death. How a ruler becomes deaf to the cries of hos people. How a religious man becomes indifferent to the stranger beaten and dying on the side of the road.

God loves them all, but in this life we do more than turn switches on and off. It is organic. It is in our bones and our flesh. If we will not receive the cleansing blood through transparency and humility- we find that the axe and the fire will grant us the transparency and humility we need :o)

[marie glen]

Those under Moses who died after two or three witnesses will be resurrected.. And it is a fearful thing in not yet born again state to fall into the hands of the living God..! To be still flawed and in His Presence.

We are all destroyed - without Jesus, that is. But there is resurrection. I don't know anywhere in God's Word where it says once having lived and died, that's it, if without Jesus- no hope. Even torment 'forever'.. Gee i sure wish YHWH had been more capable...

Would I say it like that? No, I'm a real wimp, haha, just very polite. Usually. :gsmile:

..just responding to the opening post.. little late as usual. I'm actually on vacation.. A camping vacation.. the best..

Glad to see Eaglesway is here..

[sheila]

Luke 7;41..there was a certain creditor which had two debtors; the one owed five hundred pence and the other fifty..

   and when they had nothing to pay...he frankly fogave them both. Tell me,therefore,which of them will love him most?

[sheila]

now imagine  this scenario...the prodigal son has left..and gone off in rebellion and not remained home withe Father. The Father mourns

  this loss/death..even though he is still alive etc.   and the elder son starts slandering that good-for-nothing wicked brother of his.

   he expects..if that wicked brother should ever perhaps return home..for Father to really let him have it. Now the Father knows

  what is out there and just what a hard fix that prodigal will be in away from his Father's help..and the ruin he'll come to.

   imagine the elder sons surprise when the fatted calf and the best robe is given.

    the spirit is willing and the flesh weak.......it is hard to discern a servant from a son when they are young[our time here on earth]

...sometimes a son will act like a servant and not remain in his Father's house...and sometimes a son that has always served in His

Father's house will refuse to join the celebration taking place in His Fathers house.

    Now the Father re-assures the elder son that all I have is yours[position in the kingdom]but I had to rejoice,for this,YOUR BROTHER

was dead and is alive!

[eaglesway]

As I see it you make my point. The prodigal son went through his "lake of fire". He did not return home until he "came to his senses". His kolaasis. came in the pig pen. He repented and returned to his fathers house a as a humble servant.

Who would prevent him that experience? The older brother did not place him there. We as the first fruits will rejoice as every knee bows and every tongue confesses Jesus Christ is Lord, in a repentant heart ready to serve. We are not the older brother because certain adversaries may experience aionios kolassis.

We are not the older brother because Jesus will say to some, Depart from me you lawless ones into the fire prepared for the devil and his angels."

We will rejoice with the angels as each one bows until no adversaries remain and God is all

[Seth]

In my opinion, we cannot add to the parables by ascribing a thought life to the characters that is not given in the parable itself. We shouldn't be adding like that.

Given ONLY the information Jesus gives in the parable, the older brother gets a gentle correction, having remained with his father and worked, having apparently no desire to leave his father's house. The prodigal son goes through "hell."

That's it. That's the information we have. Older brother gets a verbal correction; younger brother goes through hell. Personally, I believe this parable is a chiding against being elitist on the one had. And also a demonstration of the wisdom of the father giving that son everything he asked for so that he would be broken down and humbled.

Isaiah 30
12"Because you have rejected this message,
    relied on oppression
    and depended on deceit,
13 this sin will become for you
    like a high wall, cracked and bulging,
    that collapses suddenly, in an instant.

Didn't Paul warn "for sudden destruction will come upon them, and they shall not escape? That's what I also, echoing Eaglesway, believe happened to the prodigal son.

[Seth]

BTW, I just want to add a thought about the prodigal son. I believe it represents Christians, not a Christian and an unbeliever.

It's two sons, both in the same house, who both receive an inheritance. How they use the inheritance is the subject of the parable. It's a post-inheritance parable. One brother makes use of it, but isn't perfect. The other completely squanders it.

To me, I think the parable reminds me what Peter described in 2 Peter 2. Those who were freed from sin, only to return like a dog to vomit and become worse off than they were before.

2 Peter 2
17 These people are springs without water and mists driven by a storm. Blackest darkness is reserved for them. 18 For they mouth empty, boastful words and, by appealing to the lustful desires of the flesh, they entice people who are just escaping from those who live in error.19 They promise them freedom, while they themselves are slaves of depravity—for "people are slaves to whatever has mastered them." 20 If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and are overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning. 21 It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them. 22 Of them the proverbs are true: "A dog returns to its vomit," and, "A sow that is washed returns to her wallowing in the mud."

[sheila]

well..since it is now ok to add a thought..I will indulge..[and I do like your thought]

.the inheritance/dominion was Adams...and all in Adam become prodigal's

  and squandered the earth they inherited. the true heir is Christ Jesus..and He took everything He had and made himself poor

to buy back His prodigal brother's..the elder brother's just repented first and were fellow workers with him

[Seth]

The way I see it is that the parable is about the kingdom similar to 10 virgins and of the talents. It's about the inheritance of money which according to the talents parable is good for investing and increasing value rather than burying, or in the case of the prodigal son wasting.

I don't see the loving father who awaited his sons return as being Adam. The same father who gave the inheritance is the one who throws the party.

[sheila]

Luke 3;38  Adam the son of God

[Seth]

And not an unbeliever.

[rosered]

  Reminded me of the two sons ...

Matt   21 21:28 "What do you think? A man had two sons. He went to the first and said, 'Son, go and work in the vineyard today.'


21:29 The boy answered, 'I will not.' But later he had a change of heart and went.


21:30 The father went to the other son and said the same thing. This boy answered, 'I will, sir,' but did not go.


21:31 Which of the two did his father's will?" They said, "The first." Jesus said to them, "I tell you the truth, tax collectors and prostitutes will go ahead of you into the kingdom of God!

21:32 For John came to you in the way of righteousness, and you did not believe him. But the tax collectors and prostitutes believed him. Although you saw this, you did not later change your minds and believe him."

I see this as   catchy   , the ones whom do change    their minds/ faith is  working ,  do the FATHERS  WILL    ..


BUT  the ones whom don't   change their  minds  to  the obedient by faith works  from the rebellious ,  even  with  proof and prodding of God ?   and a third party/ all other nations /gentiles  now

JESUS spoke  only of the  humbled not the hardened as far as doing the Fathers will .
  Is   the trick question  a matter of heart and love being the motive  ?

How many times have we done somthing because we love  , but did not think it though  and  end  up only to be  crushed by it ? 

[eaglesway]

LOTS of reasonings and oblique interpretaions of parables to by-pass direct statements of scripture.

"If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10 he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed in full strength in the cup of His anger; and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. Rv 14:10

and the Devil, who is leading them astray, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where [are] the beast and the false prophet, and they shall be tormented day and night -- to the ages of the ages. And I saw a great white throne, and Him who is sitting upon it, from whose face the earth and the heaven did flee away, and place was not found for them.......and the death and the hades were cast to the lake of the fire -- this [is] the second death; and if any one was not found written in the scroll of the life, he was cast to the lake of the fire. Rv 20

5  but, according to thy hardness and impenitent heart, thou dost treasure up to thyself wrath, in a day of wrath and of the revelation of the righteous judgment of God, who shall render to each according to his works; to those, indeed, who in continuance of a good work, do seek glory, and honour, and incorruptibility -- life age-during; and to those contentious, and disobedient, indeed, to the truth, and obeying the unrighteousness -- indignation and wrath, Rom 2

6 For after all it is only just for God to repay with affliction those who afflict you, and to give relief to you who are afflicted and to us as well when the Lord Jesus will be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire, dealing out retribution to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from[/s](apo- out of/from) the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes to be glorified in His saints on that day, and to be marveled at among all who have believed—for our testimony to you was believed. 2 Thess 1

Perhaps Paul and John were just a couple of old Pharisees short on revelation, out of the loop. But the Lord of Glory confirms their words...

  31"But when the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on His glorious throne. 32"All the nations will be gathered before Him; and He will separate them from one another, as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats; 33and He will put the sheep on His right, and the goats on the left.....

41Then He will say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42For I was hungry and you gave Me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave Me nothing to drink....

It is one thing to tell opponents of UR that all will be reconciled. It is another to tell them there will be no "aionion pyr"- no correction in the age to come.

UR is clearly presented in the scripture and irrefutable to a reasoned mind. We all agree on that.

The second is not.

The practice of presenting philosophy and reasonings without addressing the scriptures that oppose ones view does not satisfy or convince. We are to be workmen worthy to be approved in our handling of the scriptures.

Those who are in Christ are a new creation, they are no longer in Adam, they have died, and when Christ who is their life is revealed in glory, they will appear with Him in glory.

Those who have rejected Christ will not. They will appear with all the rest of the dead to be judged according to their works.

John the Baptist understood this as well.

7But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming for baptism, he said to them, "You brood of vipers, who warned you to flee from the wrath to come? 8"Therefore bear fruit in keeping with repentance; 9and do not suppose that you can say to yourselves, 'We have Abraham for our father'; for I say to you that from these stones God is able to raise up children to Abraham. 10"The axe is already laid at the root of the trees; therefore every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.

The ongoing dispute here is whether all who remain to be judged will receive immediate forgiveness or not. I have presented a few out of many verses that indocate that some corrective measure will remain into the age to come.

It is described in the scriptures as fire from the presence of God.

This is no great thing, since our God is a consuming fire.

I would love to believe that all are immediatley forgiven. I personally hav no problem with that. God can do as He wills and I am fine with whatever He does  but....

The scriptures are given for our instruction- and this is not what the scriptures present.

I have made no assertions as to what EXACTLY aionion pyr is because no one knows.

I have made no assertions as to how long it lasts, because the scriptures DO NOT SAY- and it is the scriptures that  carry weight with me, not reasonings and well wishes.

Paul sees the second coming as a historical event.

It is a spiritual event  that happens in history- as was the death burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ.

John the Baptist proclaimed the wrath to come....

7But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming for baptism, he said to them, "You brood of vipers, who warned you to flee from the wrath to come? 8"Therefore bear fruit in keeping with repentance; 9and do not suppose that you can say to yourselves, 'We have Abraham for our father'; for I say to you that from these stones God is able to raise up children to Abraham. 10"The axe is already laid at the root of the trees; therefore every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.

The nations who are reconciled to God through Christ trace their fatherhood to Abraham, not Adam. In Adam all died, in Abraham all have been grafted into Jesus Christ, who is our life.

Now, the prupose of our gospel is not, primarily- do declare wrath, so I dont want anyone to say that I am advocating that. Ours is a ministry of reconciliation and that is what I rejoice in.

I just think it is a clear and a very obvious error to try to excise the correction of God in the age to come from the scriptures. There are just too many references to it.

[Seth]

 :iagree:

[jabcat]

I just think it is a clear and a very obvious error to try to excise the correction of God in the age to come from the scriptures. There are just too many references to it.

agreed

[rosered]

 

                :iagree:     :dsunny:
I do believe the beast is our own carnality   John  ,  and it is serving our own  bellies  and dwells in   death


to be carnally minded is death Living in the Spirit is life and peace ....


...5Those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh; but those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit. 6The mind of the flesh is death, but the mind of the Spirit is life and peace, 7because the mind of the flesh is hostile to God: It does not submit to God's Law, nor can it do so....

Berean Study Bible

Romans 6:21
What fruit did you reap at that time from the things you are now ashamed of? The outcome of those things is death.


  Many things I am ashamed of  now and   HOPE  that they never happen again unless a worse thing comes to battle , vexing the Spirit


Isaiah 63:10
But they rebelled and grieved His Holy Spirit;
So He turned Himself against them as an enemy,
And He fought against them.


Psalm 78:8
And may not be like their fathers,
A stubborn and rebellious generation,
A generation that did not set its heart aright,
And whose spirit was not faithful to God.
40:How often they provoked Him in the wilderness,
And grieved Him in the desert!
41 Yes, again and again they tempted God,
And limited the Holy One of Israel.


Acts 7:51
"You stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears! You always resist the Holy Spirit; as your fathers did, so do you.

Ephesians 4:30
And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.



Hebrews 10:29
Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace?

Romans 6:23
For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

I so do believe the scriptures and that some are reaping  30 fold sixty  fold and 100  fold  in the now   and have  Life in CHRIST .

  To me the good ground /  earth   is the Body of Christ  that the meek inherit .  Matt 5

Romans 8:13
For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.

The cutting off of the hand and foot and eye , those body parts that keep you out of  the Kingdom of God now ...

Romans 8:27
And He who searches our hearts knows the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for the saints according to the will of God.

Galatians 6:8
The one who sows to please his flesh, from the flesh will reap destruction; but the one who sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life.

I LOVE THE GOSPEL     AND THE TESTIMONY OF JESUS CHRIST  BEING THE VERY SPIRIT OF PROPHECY      that John and   Paul carried in their  bosom  along with the   faith works of Abraham   ........


I believe what God has joined together  no man  can separate    and nothing can separate us from the Love of God   as we love Him back     ......

God Works In All Things
(Ephesians 1:3-14)
28And we know that God works all things together for the good of those who love Him, who are called according to His purpose.

29For those God foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son,

so that He would be the firstborn among many brothers.

30And those He predestined He also called, those He called He also justified, those He justified He also glorified.

31What then shall we say in response to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us!

32He who did not spare His own Son but gave Him up for us all, how will He not also, along with Him, freely give us all things? 33Who will bring any charge against God's elect? It is God who justifies.

34Who is there to condemn us? For Christ Jesus, who died, and more than that was raised to life, is at the right hand of God—and He is interceding for us.

More than Conquerors
(Psalm 44:1-26)
35Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall trouble or distress or persecution or famine or nakedness or danger or sword? 36As it is written:

"For Your sake we face death all day long;
we are considered as sheep to be slaughtered."
37No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through Him who loved us.

38For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor principalities, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, 39neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

But not at this present time all Love GOD completely  , am a babe in that my sins are forgiven       for His name sake , but have NOT  overcome the  evil one yet ,  but  trying  , apparently not   all my heart and soul and might   is  diminished yet  striving against   sin    Matt 5   blasted  loud and clear    as to not being complete   in LOVE yet    ......  the proof or the fruit is in the root ...


JAMES   2 Faith and Works


...17So too, faith by itself, if it is not complemented by action, is dead.


18But someone will say, "You have faith and I have deeds." Show me your faith without deeds,

and I will show you my faith by my deeds.

19You believe that God is one. Good for you! Even the demons believe that, and shudder!...20O foolish man, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is worthless?d 21Was not our father Abraham justified by what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22You see that his faith was working with his actions, and his faith was perfected by what he did. 23And the Scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,"e and he was called a friend of God. 24As you can see, a man is justified by his deeds and not by faith alone.

25In the same way, was not even Rahab the prostitute justified by her actions when she welcomed the messengers and sent them off on another route? 26As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead.

Must be the dead works Paul spoke of in Hebrews 6 ?   , having faith but no fruits of the Spirit working  to completeness  ?