Torment = Shame and Regret?

[Nathan]

Yup, and ifn ya don't mind turnin yours down just a hair . . . I'm having a little trouble breathin with  all the warmth that's oozin outa ya.

[gregoryfl]

When Jesus died on the cross, what is it that he endured? The way he generally is portrayed in movies and in sermons, you would think it was the physical pain, yet, while he certainly was in most horrendous pain, the scriptures tell us he endured something far more revealing. Revealing, because the answer deals specifically with what occurs with those who are without God. There is only one scripture which tells us what he endured with regard to the cross, and it's found in Hebrews 12:2:

looking to Yahushua, the author and finisher of steadiness, who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising its shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of the Mighty-Yoked-Guide.

Yes, it wasn't pain that was the focus, but shame. He took on the shame of the whole world, yet you rarely if ever hear anything concerning this.

While todays culture is more driven by the concept of guilt and innocence, in the east, and in biblical times it was driven by the concept of shame and honor. Knowing this sheds important light on the subject of what happens to those who remain in darkness.

Just a couple of thoughts regarding this I would like to share. First, Daniel speaks of the contrast of two types of people who are raised to life.

Dan 12:2 Many of those who sleep in the dust of the land shall awake, some to filled-stomachs in the horizon, and some to shame [producing weeping] and contempt [producing gnashing of teeth] in the horizon.

Here the contrast is between life and shame with contempt. No mention of physical pain here. Take another look at the different parables concerning what has been usually described as a future of physical torture and pain and I think you will find it actually not concerning those things at all, but rather shame. Also in looking again at the different scriptures speaking of the fate of the wicked, particularly in the psalms and proverbs, shame, not pain, is what is highlighted.

So his being revealed will produce different emotions, more or less intense. For to be in the presence of pure righteousness and light will be pure mental torment for the wicked, with weeping and gnashing of teeth, and mental anguish, but not from the one who is Love, for he bore their shame as well, though they do not know it. It is a product of their own mind, the judgment that was accomplished in Christ, yet hangs over them. They will indeed be hurt by the second death, whatever portion they have in it as the lake of fire.

I think of Joseph's brothers, who, although having been forgiven by Joseph, still were tormented mentally in shame, thinking they were "gonna get it but good", especially when their father died. This to me is a picture of being hurt by the second death, that fiery trial Joseph put them through until he revealed who he was to them and God's hand in their lives through their evil.

For those of us in Christ, we can rejoice that our sense of shame has been dealt with so that we may appear before him in boldness, with joy, for he has taken us out of the realm of shame and brought us into his realm of honor. Therefore we will not be hurt by the second death, for it has no power over us.

Ron

[WhiteWings]

I've been playing with those words too. Below what I scribbled down:
(sorry for the bad formatting)

1 Corinthians 11:32  and being judged by the Lord, we are chastened ....                           => We are judged by being chastened.
Titus 2:11-12  For the saving grace of God was manifested to all men, teaching us, that .... => Teaching is the grace of God.
Revelation 20:10  .... and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Judged Þ Chastened Þ Teaching Þ Grace
God corrects His children by teaching them, so He can approve them with love

God corrects His children by teaching them, so He can approve them with love

Strong definitions
Teaching + Chastened
paideu,w paideuo {pahee-dyoo'-o}
Meaning: 
to train children
to be instructed or taught or learn
to cause one to learn
to chastise
to chastise or castigate with words, to correct
of those who are moulding the character of others by reproof and admonition
of God
to chasten by the affliction of evils and calamities
to chastise with blows, to scourge
of a father punishing his son
of a judge ordering one to be scourged

Grace
ca,rij charis {khar'-ece}
Meaning: 
grace
that which affords joy, pleasure, delight, sweetness, charm, loveliness: grace of speech
good will, loving-kindness, favour
of the merciful kindness by which God, exerting his holy influence upon souls, turns them to Christ, keeps, strengthens, increases them in Christian faith, knowledge, affection, and kindles them to the exercise of the Christian virtues
what is due to grace
the spiritual condition of one governed by the power of divine grace
the token or proof of grace, benefit
a gift of grace
benefit, bounty
thanks, (for benefits, services, favours), recompense, reward

Judged
kri,nw krino {kree'-no}
Meaning: 
to separate, put asunder, to pick out, select, choose
to approve, esteem, to prefer
to be of opinion, deem, think, to be of opinion
to determine, resolve, decree
to judge
to pronounce an opinion concerning right and wrong
to be judged, i.e. summoned to trial that one's case may be examined and judgment passed upon it
to pronounce judgment, to subject to censure
of those who act the part of judges or arbiters in matters of common life, or pass judgment on the deeds and words of others
to rule, govern
to preside over with the power of giving judicial decisions, because it was the prerogative of kings and rulers to pass judgment
to contend together, of warriors and combatants
to dispute
in a forensic sense
to go to law, have suit at law


Tormented
928 basani,zw basanizo {bas-an-id'-zo}
Meaning: 
to test (metals) by the touchstone, which is a black siliceous stone used to test the purity of gold or silver by the color of the streak produced on it by rubbing it with either metal
to question by applying torture
to torture
to vex with grievous pains (of body or mind), to torment
to be harassed, distressed
of those who at sea are struggling with a head wind

Bit better formated version attached.

[rosered]

  wow Good  work Tony   WW ,   
very clear , I can see  there is  alot to consider

   The forum is slow and weird   format  display today for  me , is anyone else having this trounble ?  :sigh: 
  I will not be on much today because of this  format  problem on my end lol ..
have a  nice day   all  :HeartThrob:

[willieH]

willieH: Hi Gregoryfl...  :cloud9:

When Jesus died on the cross, what is it that he endured? The way he generally is portrayed in movies and in sermons, you would think it was the physical pain, yet, while he certainly was in most horrendous pain, the scriptures tell us he endured something far more revealing. Revealing, because the answer deals specifically with what occurs with those who are without God. There is only one scripture which tells us what he endured with regard to the cross, and it's found in Hebrews 12:2:

looking to Yahushua, the author and finisher of steadiness, who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising its shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of the Mighty-Yoked-Guide.

Mighty-Yoked-Guide?   :laughing7:  Sorry bro... but the more modern the translations get, the more "out of touch" they appear as they endeavor to use such wordings...

It kind of reminds me of the modern day Generation... they have blue hair, tatoos on most visible portions of their bodies, and what is not tatooed is pierced... Which in my observation is a statement that the natural look they were given by GOD was just not GOOD ENOUGH and had to be IMPROVED upon...

Yes, it wasn't pain that was the focus, but shame. He took on the shame of the whole world, yet you rarely if ever hear anything concerning this.

While todays culture is more driven by the concept of guilt and innocence, in the east, and in biblical times it was driven by the concept of shame and honor. Knowing this sheds important light on the subject of what happens to those who remain in darkness.

Just a couple of thoughts regarding this I would like to share. First, Daniel speaks of the contrast of two types of people who are raised to life.

Dan 12:2 Many of those who sleep in the dust of the land shall awake, some to filled-stomachs in the horizon, and some to shame [producing weeping] and contempt [producing gnashing of teeth] in the horizon.

I don't condemn you for this observation bro... WEEPING, because of SHAME, well, I agree with, for when I came to CHRIST in MY SHAME, I certainly WEPT!  :Mcry:  It was not a TORMENTING event, it was a CLEANSING event...

GOD is IMPARTIAL to men... and HE brought us each into this life, with the KNOWLEDGE of our ENTIRE LIFE, before ONE shameful deed was committed... Putting us into different environments, which have varying AFFECTS on our behavioral outcome... So for Him to make one "GNASH TEETH" and not another, is an example of PARTIALITY...  But that upon the REVELATION of JESUS CHRIST in each life, ...each in turn would experience their due SHAME for their part in His DEATH... that to me, more demonstrates, IMPARTIALITY.

But, just for funsies, ...let me ask you, ...WHEN have you observed "GNASHING of TEETH" as a reaction to SHAME?   :dontknow:

Here the contrast is between life and shame with contempt. No mention of physical pain here. Take another look at the different parables concerning what has been usually described as a future of physical torture and pain and I think you will find it actually not concerning those things at all, but rather shame. Also in looking again at the different scriptures speaking of the fate of the wicked, particularly in the psalms and proverbs, shame, not pain, is what is highlighted.

I agree with this portion of your post... the "fate of the WICKED" is a common one, for the UNREVEALED HEART, is DESPARATELY WICKED, and found in EACH human being.

So his being revealed will produce different emotions, more or less intense. For to be in the presence of pure righteousness and light will be pure mental torment for the wicked, with weeping and gnashing of teeth, and mental anguish, but not from the one who is Love, for he bore their shame as well, though they do not know it. It is a product of their own mind, the judgment that was accomplished in Christ, yet hangs over them. They will indeed be hurt by the second death, whatever portion they have in it as the lake of fire.

Sorry bro, but my "agreement phase" is ended...

Whether you realize this or not, you are IN the Lake of FIRE, ...NOW... and because YOU have been chosen to know GOD NOW, and you have born your SHAME before Him NOW, ...means that you do not have to be "hurt" by repeating this event.  But for those who have NOT been chosen... their SHAME shall not be WORSE than was YOURS, or GOD is displaying PARTIALITY...

It is of HIS CHOOSING, who comes to CHRIST in this life (John 6:44)... and because others you observe as due SHAME which shall cause MENTAL TORMENT, and GNASHING of TEETH as well as SHAME, because they have not DONE as have YOU in this life... is (IMO) a misobservation of IMPARTIALITY...

The above is a proposal of ONE getting "better" from God, than does another, even though HE CHOSE who they would be, when they would be, what would surround them in their molding processes, etc...

SHAME is due ALL of us, for ALL have SINNED... and that SHAME is not meant as TORMENT, it is meant as a RECONCILING event, ...for GOD is LOVE (1 John 4:8) and, ...TORMENT is not a part of LOVE, and LOVE does not TORMENT its object (1 John 4:18), it seeks to REDEEM it from TORMENT.

To teach otherwise, is contrary to the teaching of what DIVINE LOVE is... DIVINE LOVE is about FORGIVENESS, and RECONCILATION... not TORMENTING one and not the other...

I think of Joseph's brothers, who, although having been forgiven by Joseph, still were tormented mentally in shame, thinking they were "gonna get it but good", especially when their father died. This to me is a picture of being hurt by the second death, that fiery trial Joseph put them through until he revealed who he was to them and God's hand in their lives through their evil.

Again, I believe your observation of SHAME is in the negative... and when LOVE is applied to SHAME, it finds that SHAME as a RECONCILING element, not a TORMENTING one...

For those of us in Christ, we can rejoice that our sense of shame has been dealt with so that we may appear before him in boldness, with joy, for he has taken us out of the realm of shame and brought us into his realm of honor. Therefore we will not be hurt by the second death, for it has no power over us.

Ron

This means you have already "hit your knees" Ron... And therefore, you have been CHOSEN to be a light in this present darkness... :HeartThrob:

However, ...those that have yet to be revealed, shall find no more TORMENT in "hitting their knees", than have you...  :dontknow:

And THAT is ...GOOD NEWS!

In JESUS the name above ALL NAMES...

:laughing7:  willieH     :laughing7:

[Zeek]

willieH: Hi Gregoryfl...  :cloud9:

When Jesus died on the cross, what is it that he endured? The way he generally is portrayed in movies and in sermons, you would think it was the physical pain, yet, while he certainly was in most horrendous pain, the scriptures tell us he endured something far more revealing. Revealing, because the answer deals specifically with what occurs with those who are without God. There is only one scripture which tells us what he endured with regard to the cross, and it's found in Hebrews 12:2:

looking to Yahushua, the author and finisher of steadiness, who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising its shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of the Mighty-Yoked-Guide.

Mighty-Yoked-Guide?   :laughing7:  Sorry bro... but the more modern the translations get, the more "out of touch" they appear as they endeavor to use such wordings...

It kind of reminds me of the modern day Generation... they have blue hair, tatoos on most visible portions of their bodies, and what is not tatooed is pierced... Which in my observation is a statement that the natural look they were given by GOD was just not GOOD ENOUGH and had to be IMPROVED upon...

Yes, it wasn't pain that was the focus, but shame. He took on the shame of the whole world, yet you rarely if ever hear anything concerning this.

While todays culture is more driven by the concept of guilt and innocence, in the east, and in biblical times it was driven by the concept of shame and honor. Knowing this sheds important light on the subject of what happens to those who remain in darkness.

Just a couple of thoughts regarding this I would like to share. First, Daniel speaks of the contrast of two types of people who are raised to life.

Dan 12:2 Many of those who sleep in the dust of the land shall awake, some to filled-stomachs in the horizon, and some to shame [producing weeping] and contempt [producing gnashing of teeth] in the horizon.

I don't condemn you for this observation bro... WEEPING, because of SHAME, well, I agree with, for when I came to CHRIST in MY SHAME, I certainly WEPT!  :Mcry:  It was not a TORMENTING event, it was a CLEANSING event...

GOD is IMPARTIAL to men... and HE brought us each into this life, with the KNOWLEDGE of our ENTIRE LIFE, before ONE shameful deed was committed... Putting us into different environments, which have varying AFFECTS on our behavioral outcome... So for Him to make one "GNASH TEETH" and not another, is an example of PARTIALITY...  But that upon the REVELATION of JESUS CHRIST in each life, ...each in turn would experience their due SHAME for their part in His DEATH... that to me, THAT more demonstrates, IMPARTIALITY.

But, just for funsies, ...let me ask you, ...WHEN have you observed "GNASHING of TEETH" as a reaction to SHAME?   :dontknow:

Here the contrast is between life and shame with contempt. No mention of physical pain here. Take another look at the different parables concerning what has been usually described as a future of physical torture and pain and I think you will find it actually not concerning those things at all, but rather shame. Also in looking again at the different scriptures speaking of the fate of the wicked, particularly in the psalms and proverbs, shame, not pain, is what is highlighted.

I agree with this portion of your post... the "fate of the WICKED" is a common one, for the UNREVEALED HEART, is DESPARATELY WICKED, and found in EACH human being.

So his being revealed will produce different emotions, more or less intense. For to be in the presence of pure righteousness and light will be pure mental torment for the wicked, with weeping and gnashing of teeth, and mental anguish, but not from the one who is Love, for he bore their shame as well, though they do not know it. It is a product of their own mind, the judgment that was accomplished in Christ, yet hangs over them. They will indeed be hurt by the second death, whatever portion they have in it as the lake of fire.

Sorry bro, but my "agreement phase" is ended...

Whether you realize this or not, you are IN the Lake of FIRE, ...NOW... and because YOU have been chosen to know GOD NOW, and you have born your SHAME before Him NOW, ...means that you do not have to be "hurt" by repeating this event.  But for those who have NOT been chosen... their SHAME shall not be WORSE than was YOURS, or GOD is displaying PARTIALITY...

It is of HIS CHOOSING, who comes to CHRIST in this life (John 6:44)... and because others you observe as due SHAME which shall cause MENTAL TORMENT, and GNASHING of TEETH as well as SHAME, because they have not DONE as have YOU in this life... is (IMO) a misobservation of IMPARTIALITY...

The above is a proposal of ONE getting "better" from God, than does another, even though HE CHOSE who they would be, when they would be, what would surround them in their molding processes, etc...

SHAME is due ALL of us, for ALL have SINNED... and that SHAME is not meant as TORMENT, it is meant as a RECONCILING event, ...for GOD is LOVE (1 John 4:8) and, ...TORMENT is not a part of LOVE, and LOVE does not TORMENT its object (1 John 4:18), it seeks to REDEEM it from TORMENT.

To teach otherwise, is contrary to the teaching of what DIVINE LOVE is... DIVINE LOVE is about FORGIVENESS, and RECONCILATION... not TORMENTING one and not the other...

I think of Joseph's brothers, who, although having been forgiven by Joseph, still were tormented mentally in shame, thinking they were "gonna get it but good", especially when their father died. This to me is a picture of being hurt by the second death, that fiery trial Joseph put them through until he revealed who he was to them and God's hand in their lives through their evil.

Again, I believe your observation of SHAME is in the negative... and when LOVE is applied to SHAME, it finds that SHAME as a RECONCILING element, not a TORMENTING one...

For those of us in Christ, we can rejoice that our sense of shame has been dealt with so that we may appear before him in boldness, with joy, for he has taken us out of the realm of shame and brought us into his realm of honor. Therefore we will not be hurt by the second death, for it has no power over us.

Ron

This means you have already "hit your knees" Ron... And therefore, you have been CHOSEN to be a light in this present darkness... :HeartThrob:

However, ...those that have yet to be revealed, shall find no more TORMENT in "hitting their knees", than have you...  :dontknow:

And THAT is ...GOOD NEWS!

In JESUS the name above ALL NAMES...

:laughing7:  willieH     :laughing7:

    
Psa 83:17 Let them be confounded and troubled for ever; yea, let them be put to shame, and perish: 





Jhn 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.


Jhn 11:26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this? 


Mat 7:14 Because strait [is] the gate, and narrow [is] the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it. 


Mat 21:44 And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder. 

[Zeek]

Willie, do you believe all go through the wide gait, and through this gait we find life?

[gregoryfl]

Hey there Willie,

Actually, we agree on more than you think there. I may not have expressed some of those things in a way that shows that, but I agree with much of what you shared. For example, I do believe that we are in the lake of fire today. That lake of fire I believe to be God himself, a consuming fire that purifies.

I am of course, still working out many things in my mind on these matters, and so am always willing to have my thoughts refined. The reason I wrote that I thought there would be varying degrees of shame is because of the verse I see concerning, for example, some being beaten with many stripes and some with few. If you have any thoughts on that please do share.

As for the verse about shame and contempt, there are a couple ways I can understand it. If these are 2 feelings that a person shows, then there are many examples, women molesters to take one, who feel shame from being rejected by women, which leads them to show contempt, or to despise women and thus hurt them.

I believe that the jews who stoned Steven felt shame from being exposed as they were, being disgraced by Steven, which led them to gnash their teeth at him. However, like you said, and I agree wholeheartedly, that this shame and contempt these are going through now, for I believe this is speaking about now, will ultimately lead to a cleansing for them.

One last thing, about the translation I have, yes, I know it may sound very weird to read of God as a Mighty-Yoked-Guide, but my translation is an attempt to bring out as much as possible the Hebraic concrete meanings of the words. Of course, I don't expect it to resonate with everyone and that is fine. To whom it may benefit, then that is who I hope it ministers to. Of course, only if I ever complete it. I don't have the fancy computer programs professionals use.  :laughing7:

Thanks for your sharpening thoughts my brother.

Ron

[willieH]

willieH: Hi  Z  :eek:

Willie, do you believe all go through the wide gait, and through this gait we find life?

No... but GOD decides who does or does not walk through the Narrow Gate bro... You do NOTHING of yourself, or you make yourself more than did JESUS, for He said:

The SON of man CAN do NOTHING of Himself... (John 5:19 / 5:30)

So if you are found walking thru the Narrow gate... then consider it a blessing with PURPOSE, not that YOU somehow, made the right call...

GOD has PURPOSE in ALL bro... MUCH of which we do NOT SEE... If you KNOW Him, and I believe you DO, ...then you KNOW THIS...  :cloud9:

In JESUS the name above ALL NAMES...

:laughing7:  willieH     :laughing7:

[willieH]

willieH: Hi Ron... :hithere:

Hey there Willie,

Actually, we agree on more than you think there. I may not have expressed some of those things in a way that shows that, but I agree with much of what you shared. For example, I do believe that we are in the lake of fire today. That lake of fire I believe to be God himself, a consuming fire that purifies.

Well, Paul noted that (Acts 17:28) IN HIM, ...we LIVE, MOVE and have our BEING... if this is indeed true (which it is), and He is a CONSUMING FIRE... then we are AMIDST that FIRE!

I am of course, still working out many things in my mind on these matters, and so am always willing to have my thoughts refined. The reason I wrote that I thought there would be varying degrees of shame is because of the verse I see concerning, for example, some being beaten with many stripes and some with few. If you have any thoughts on that please do share.

More than happy to bro... Some will experience the sufferings of CHRIST in this life... If we follow Him, and our lives are found merged into His...then we shall likely SUFFER as did He... this was typical of His followers of old, why should the pattern change?

I consider it a privilidge to recieve stripes... I just had MAJOR SURGERY (I presently have cancer brother)... and at 63, it just aint as easy as it once was...  :sigh:

I have confessed my SHAME and battled through many adversities in my lifetime... which I shall not disclose here... but suffice it to say... it would definitely shock some.  If I am due stripes, then so be the will of GOD in me...  :Pray:

As for the verse about shame and contempt, there are a couple ways I can understand it. If these are 2 feelings that a person shows, then there are many examples, women molesters to take one, who feel shame from being rejected by women, which leads them to show contempt, or to despise women and thus hurt them.

There is much to the human mental condition that is not at all, understood by men... One cannot deduce his or her own, or anothers behavioral summary upon that which one can MENTALLY recall or even observes in the other...

Our recall is pretty pathetic in the best of us... How many can name what they had for lunch 10 days ago... or what shirt they wore last tuesday?

So to determine WHO we are, and WHY we are the way we are... is information pretty much privy to the Creator.  Irregardless of what we might THINK we know...

I believe that the jews who stoned Steven felt shame from being exposed as they were, being disgraced by Steven, which led them to gnash their teeth at him. However, like you said, and I agree wholeheartedly, that this shame and contempt these are going through now, for I believe this is speaking about now, will ultimately lead to a cleansing for them.

One last thing, about the translation I have, yes, I know it may sound very weird to read of God as a Mighty-Yoked-Guide, but my translation is an attempt to bring out as much as possible the Hebraic concrete meanings of the words. Of course, I don't expect it to resonate with everyone and that is fine. To whom it may benefit, then that is who I hope it ministers to. Of course, only if I ever complete it. I don't have the fancy computer programs professionals use.  :laughing7:

Thanks for your sharpening thoughts my brother.

Ron

No offense was intended against any endeavor to translate the Holy Scriptures... I just find that it is adding to confusion to add more and more of them as time goes on, because it allows people to look for a version which supports their beliefs, and use that verse from the version most "doctrine friendly"... I stick with KJV regardless of its myriads of errors... I believe it is sufficient ground to stand on, whether or not it might support my thinking.

This way, I don't have to "recall" which version I made my points from...  :laughing7:

In other words... if the KJV doesn't work for my UR belief, I'll just look and see if the ASB or NIV, or Message, or whatever... more supports my viewpoint... :mnah:

You are a genuine guy Ron... thanks for your reply bro...  :friendstu:

In JESUS the name above ALL NAMES...

:laughing7:  willieH     :laughing7:

[Zeek]

willieH: Hi  Z  :eek:

Willie, do you believe all go through the wide gait, and through this gait we find life?

No... but GOD decides who does or does not walk through the Narrow Gate bro... You do NOTHING of yourself, or you make yourself more than did JESUS, for He said:

The SON of man CAN do NOTHING of Himself... (John 5:19 / 5:30)

So if you are found walking thru the Narrow gate... then consider it a blessing with PURPOSE, not that YOU somehow, made the right call...

GOD has PURPOSE in ALL bro... MUCH of which we do NOT SEE... If you KNOW Him, and I believe you DO, ...then you KNOW THIS...  :cloud9:

In JESUS the name above ALL NAMES...

:laughing7:  willieH     :laughing7:

but isn't this God demonstrating unequal treatment/partiality? 

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Willie, as I was reading your words on this thread, the thought of the Lord came to me to speak an abounding of His life to you. That's all.... :HeartThrob:

[willieH]

willieH: Hi  Z  :eek:

Willie, do you believe all go through the wide gait, and through this gait we find life?

No... but GOD decides who does or does not walk through the Narrow Gate bro... You do NOTHING of yourself, or you make yourself more than did JESUS, for He said:

The SON of man CAN do NOTHING of Himself... (John 5:19 / 5:30)

So if you are found walking thru the Narrow gate... then consider it a blessing with PURPOSE, not that YOU somehow, made the right call...

GOD has PURPOSE in ALL bro... MUCH of which we do NOT SEE... If you KNOW Him, and I believe you DO, ...then you KNOW THIS...  :cloud9:

*** I would like to add something to this that I forgot... is this WALK [thru the "wide & narrow" gates], done NOW?  And if we are "walking" thru the "LIFE or DESTRUCTION gates" NOW, is not NOW the result taking place?

Failing to realize that we are ALL part of ALL THINGS, which GOD is working NOW, is to place LIFE and DESTRUCTION beyond... which is a (not meaning offense) [IMO] astray observation, for GOD gives NONE the ability to SEE what is BEYOND.  So how may we determine it?  :mshock:

LIFE and DESTRUCTION are in THIS LIFE... for only LIFE [GOD] is in that which is beyond this present life...

You can't see this?  Fine bro, we all are either learning or not learning...  :cloud9:  At the CHOOSING of GOD... and IN THAT, if we are WISE, we shall know that there are things we are YET to KNOW...  :dontknow:

but isn't this God demonstrating unequal treatment/partiality? 

I think you missed what I said brother... Consider it a blessing that you are chosen to sojourn the NARROW pathway which your SAVIOR walked...

That GOD chooses to do as He does, does not involve PARTIALITY because His PURPOSE for ALL has to do with ALL being CHOSEN to do what they do in their [NARROW and WIDE] parts of THAT PURPOSE... which demonstrates GOOD versus EVIL, ...to ALL...

That YOU have been chosen to "walk through the NARROW GATE" is NOT an EASY JOURNEY!  But that you recognize that HE chose you to walk this journey (even though it is a rough and often thankless trek) is a BLESSING.

Might I suggest the example of JESUS CHRIST... He was CHOSEN and SENT to Save the WORLD... was it "easy"?   (do I need to answer this for you?)... Was it a BLESSING?  (again, do I need to answer this for you?)...  Was it for the GOOD of ALL? (one more time, need an answer?)  Though it was very HARD and often PAINFUL in physical, mental and spiritual ways, was it WORTH IT?  Was His journey through that gate and on that pathway, "about Him" or about US?  :Chinscratch:

Well brother... that YOU are chosen to walk on the pathway and through the GATE which JESUS walked through, finds ALL the same QUESTIONS with ALL the same ANSWERS...  :dontknow: 

Is it your perception that your journey is, ...about YOU?  If it is, then it is a walk other than was HIS...  :sigh:

GOD's choosing is NEVER about PARTIALITY, ...it is about ACCOMPLISHMENT...  The UNSPIRITUAL would say about PARTIALITY:   

:blahgreen:  Well, not EVERYONE is "good looking", and not EVERYONE is born of "wealthy" parents, and not EVERYONE is as "talented" as some, etc.  Does this NOT DISPLAY PARTIALITY with GOD?  :blah:

Can you answer this Z :eek: ???

Try this:  If EVERYONE was born WEALTHY or GOOD LOOKING, how might we KNOW what these things actually MEAN?  If GOD made ALL "GOOD LOOKING", how might we KNOW that ALL are in such a state?  :dontknow: 

We would in fact, ALL be beautiful, yet we would ALSO be WITHOUT the ability to recognize BEAUTY,  and certainly devoid of the ability to be THANKFUL that He made us so, BECAUSE we could not RECOGNIZE the  Beauty of HIS work in us...  :dontknow:  ...eh?  :dontknow:

If ALL were the EYE, where would be the HEARING?  If ALL were the HAND, where would be the FEET?  heLLo???  ...Air-ye catchin-me-drift ...matey?

PARTIALITY from a CARNAL view, sees LACK by comparisons in the PHYSICAL world, without regard to the HIGHER planes we live in...

Of the SPIRITUAL, ...You might take the "same road", and say that GOD making PETER -- Peter, instead of me, is PARTIALITY in the Spirit... and to that I would quote the Apostle Paul:

Rom 9:20 ...Nay but, O man WHO ART THOU that repliest against [talks back TO]  GOD?  Shall the thing FORMED say unto Him that FORMED, ...WHY hast THOU made ME, thus? 

I leave you with this z... unless YOU [or I], are able to see the PURPOSES of GOD in the OVERALL, then you [or I] are NOT in position to QUESTION the WAY He ordains and SETS in place ALL THINGS, as HE WORKS together, ...ALL THINGS... after the counsel [advising] of HIS OWN WILL (Eph 1:11)

In JESUS the name above ALL NAMES...

:laughing7:  willieH     :laughing7:

[willieH]

willieH: Hi sister R... :hithere:

:cloud9: Willie, as I was reading your words on this thread, the thought of the Lord came to me to speak an abounding of His life to you. That's all.... :HeartThrob:

:ty: :HeartThrob:   :cloud9:

In JESUS the name above ALL NAMES...

:laughing7:  willieH     :laughing7:

[Zeek]

willieH: Hi  Z  :eek:

Willie, do you believe all go through the wide gait, and through this gait we find life?

No... but GOD decides who does or does not walk through the Narrow Gate bro... You do NOTHING of yourself, or you make yourself more than did JESUS, for He said:

The SON of man CAN do NOTHING of Himself... (John 5:19 / 5:30)

So if you are found walking thru the Narrow gate... then consider it a blessing with PURPOSE, not that YOU somehow, made the right call...

GOD has PURPOSE in ALL bro... MUCH of which we do NOT SEE... If you KNOW Him, and I believe you DO, ...then you KNOW THIS...  :cloud9:

*** I would like to add something to this that I forgot... is this WALK [thru the "wide & narrow" gates], done NOW?  And if we are "walking" thru the "LIFE or DESTRUCTION gates" NOW, is not NOW the result taking place?

Failing to realize that we are ALL part of ALL THINGS, which GOD is working NOW, is to place LIFE and DESTRUCTION beyond... which is a (not meaning offense) [IMO] astray observation, for GOD gives NONE the ability to SEE what is BEYOND.  So how may we determine it?  :mshock:

LIFE and DESTRUCTION are in THIS LIFE... for only LIFE [GOD] is in that which is beyond this present life...

You can't see this?  Fine bro, we all are either learning or not learning...  :cloud9:  At the CHOOSING of GOD... and IN THAT, if we are WISE, we shall know that there are things we are YET to KNOW...  :dontknow:

but isn't this God demonstrating unequal treatment/partiality? 

I think you missed what I said brother... Consider it a blessing that you are chosen to sojourn the NARROW pathway which your SAVIOR walked...

That GOD chooses to do as He does, does not involve PARTIALITY because His PURPOSE for ALL has to do with ALL being CHOSEN to do what they do in their [NARROW and WIDE] parts of THAT PURPOSE... which demonstrates GOOD versus EVIL, ...to ALL...

That YOU have been chosen to "walk through the NARROW GATE" is NOT an EASY JOURNEY!  But that you recognize that HE chose you to walk this journey (even though it is a rough and often thankless trek) is a BLESSING.

Might I suggest the example of JESUS CHRIST... He was CHOSEN and SENT to Save the WORLD... was it "easy"?   (do I need to answer this for you?)... Was it a BLESSING?  (again, do I need to answer this for you?)...  Was it for the GOOD of ALL? (one more time, need an answer?)  Though it was very HARD and often PAINFUL in physical, mental and spiritual ways, was it WORTH IT?  Was His journey through that gate and on that pathway, "about Him" or about US?  :Chinscratch:

Well brother... that YOU are chosen to walk on the pathway and through the GATE which JESUS walked through, finds ALL the same QUESTIONS with ALL the same ANSWERS...  :dontknow: 

Is it your perception that your journey is, ...about YOU?  If it is, then it is a walk other than was HIS...  :sigh:

GOD's choosing is NEVER about PARTIALITY, ...it is about ACCOMPLISHMENT...  The UNSPIRITUAL would say about PARTIALITY:   

:blahgreen:  Well, not EVERYONE is "good looking", and not EVERYONE is born of "wealthy" parents, and not EVERYONE is as "talented" as some, etc.  Does this NOT DISPLAY PARTIALITY with GOD?  :blah:

Can you answer this Z :eek: ???

Try this:  If EVERYONE was born WEALTHY or GOOD LOOKING, how might we KNOW what these things actually MEAN?  If GOD made ALL "GOOD LOOKING", how might we KNOW that ALL are in such a state?  :dontknow: 

We would in fact, ALL be beautiful, yet we would ALSO be WITHOUT the ability to recognize BEAUTY,  and certainly devoid of the ability to be THANKFUL that He made us so, BECAUSE we could not RECOGNIZE the  Beauty of HIS work in us...  :dontknow:  ...eh?  :dontknow:

If ALL were the EYE, where would be the HEARING?  If ALL were the HAND, where would be the FEET?  heLLo???  ...Air-ye catchin-me-drift ...matey?

PARTIALITY from a CARNAL view, sees LACK by comparisons in the PHYSICAL world, without regard to the HIGHER planes we live in...

Of the SPIRITUAL, ...You might take the "same road", and say that GOD making PETER -- Peter, instead of me, is PARTIALITY in the Spirit... and to that I would quote the Apostle Paul:

Rom 9:20 ...Nay but, O man WHO ART THOU that repliest against [talks back TO]  GOD?  Shall the thing FORMED say unto Him that FORMED, ...WHY hast THOU made ME, thus? 

I leave you with this z... unless YOU [or I], are able to see the PURPOSES of GOD in the OVERALL, then you [or I] are NOT in position to QUESTION the WAY He ordains and SETS in place ALL THINGS, as HE WORKS together, ...ALL THINGS... after the counsel [advising] of HIS OWN WILL (Eph 1:11)

In JESUS the name above ALL NAMES...

:laughing7:  willieH     :laughing7:

thanks for clarifying willie.  I appreciate your response. 

Z

[willieH]

willieH: Hi  Z  :eek:

thanks for clarifying willie.  I appreciate your response. 

Z

You bet me-bratha!  :friendstu:

PS... hope you dont mind the Z  :eek: ...thing, I mean no offense or sarcasm, just fun...   :wink2: :laughing7:


In JESUS the name above ALL NAMES...

:laughing7:  willieH     :laughing7: