I was playing catch up reading "My Utmost For His Highest" a daily devotional complied by the wife of Oswald Chambers. Jan 1st starts out with Philippians 1:20
"My eager desire and hope being that I may never feel ashamed, but that now as ever I may do honor to Christ in my own person by fearless courage" (Moffatt)
"My eager desire and hope being that I may never feel ashamed".
We shall all feel very much ashamed if we do not yield to Jesus on the point He has asked us to yield for Him.
All of a sudden passages like wailing and gnashing of teeth, and the Rich Man in Luke talking about being in torment, suddenly translated into expressions of... Shame.
Could it be all of that wailing and torment simply translates as shame?
Is really as simple as that?
I remember that one of the supreme tortures inflicted upon the detainees at the Guantánamo Bay Detention Camp, was to subject them to intense shame.
It's said that the number 1 fear that most people have, is speaking in front of an audience. Death, is the number 2 fear that most people have. To paraphrase something I heard Jerry Seinfeld say, "This means that most people would rather be the person in the casket, than the person delivering the eulogy!"
Why? SHAME! They're terrified of being embarrassed.
In many cultures, a person would kill themselves over or to avoid shame.
Shame is Torment!
In the case of the Bible however, it would be the person feeling intense shame for their own wrongdoing and shortsightedness, in the searing light of pure righteousness, rather than anything God is inflicting upon them.
Eternal Torment . Age-during Punishment. Age-abiding Correction. = Shame?
By Jove (or more correctly Holy Spirit), do I have it? :icon_king:
Bill
I'm not sure if they're equivalents, although the Bible does speak of God shaming Israel with all of His goodness and that they'd never again open their mouths. Probably not literally a perpetual vow of silence, but in the sense that we'd even use it in modern English where a certain subject is closed, a debate is gone, nothing more to complain about, someone's presumption has been put in it's proper place, etc.
:cloud9: Interesting thought. I always took the shame to be from not being IN Christ, ie. not being clothed with the garment of righteousness that comes from the Spirit. Blessings...
Jer 23:40 -
And I will bring an everlasting reproach upon you, and a perpetual shame, which shall not be forgotten.
Da 12:2 -
And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
PS. So I could see how that could apply, as He removes our shame and thus our "torment" from not being in Christ.
This is good stuff Mac ,
the last day church and the warning came to mind as well ...
And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;
Rev 3:15 I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.
Rev 3:16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.
Rev 3:17 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:
Rev 3:18 I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and [that] the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.
Rev 3:19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.
shame here is 152 greek word aischynē
1) the confusion of one who is ashamed of anything, sense of shame
2) ignominy, disgrace, dishonour
3) a thing to be ashamed of
:cloud9: Well, there's more to the workman being approved. Jesus was "approved among us by signs and wonders", which is what He gave me to show me to keep my mouth shut in regards to judging some of my brethren one time, who were not quite up to "my" standards because they didn't have the revelation I had regarding the rapture.
Signs and wonders follow them that believe, and so if someone has signs and wonders following them, wisdom dictates to leave them alone, lest we find we are boxing with God. Blessings...
Quote from: Cardinal on January 05, 2009, 12:29:42 AM
:cloud9: Interesting thought. I always took the shame to be from not being IN Christ, ie. not being clothed with the garment of righteousness that comes from the Spirit. Blessings...
Jer 23:40 -
And I will bring an everlasting reproach upon you, and a perpetual shame, which shall not be forgotten.
Da 12:2 -
And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
PS. So I could see how that could apply, as He removes our shame and thus our "torment" from not being in Christ.
As this is turning over in my mind, I'm also thinking of regret as well. I remember a preacher saying how some people say they don't care about rewards or a garment of righteousness, they'll be satisfied with just making it by the skin of their teeth. But when they're before God standing naked, they will care. I'll take any interpretation that detracts from the God literally torturing people with a blowtorch type of scenario.
Could be that the shame, regret etc. that those who haven't been saved are doomed to endure, while it's what those who have been washed white as snow, will be saved from. How awful it would be to stand before the pureness of God in those filthy rags. How shameful how regretful. What torment. I can see myself wailing and gnashing my teeth in that condition - without seeing God as cruel. These people will know they did this to themselves and they'll seek reconciliation. And He will purify all unrighteousness, through which will be an agonizing process of rehabilitation. Like the agony an obese out of shape person has to go through to become athletic. And then He will wipe away every tear, that they all shall gratefully bow their knee and every tongue will joyfully confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the Glory of the Father. Just seems that put into perspectives like this, "hell" suddenly makes sense.
Yes, it's terrible. But it's not horrifically cruel. It's not purposely inflected incomprehensible torture that serves no purpose. It's more of a cause and effect factor. Not the place or situation I would want to find myself in, but yet still would be able to deal with my loved ones being in, knowing that they're not being purposely tortured, but being put through rehabilitation and purification, and they'll come out of it cleansed. Like Spiritual Boot Camp. Being put through the sausage grinder. That I have been subjected to here on earth, and most certainly came out the better for. I think of how much David suffered and anguish when confronted by Nathan. Or how much Esau lamented and agonized after realizing he had sold away his birthright over a bowl of soup. But they, after going through the school of hard knocks, ended up living happily ever after.
Quote from: Fireinfolding on January 05, 2009, 01:13:45 AM
Cardinal shows it as being IN Christ and Christ shows it as MY WORDS abiding IN YOU (and Him as well) because apart from him we can do nothing.
:cloud9: Here is where I was going with that.
Acts 2:11
Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God. The Spirit of Christ is as a garment, of praise, for one.
Isa 61:3 - To appoint unto them that mourn in Zion, to give unto them beauty for ashes, the oil of joy for mourning, the GARMENT OF PRAISE for the spirit of heaviness; that they might be called trees of RIGHTEOUSNESS, the planting of the LORD, that he might be glorified.
Ro 13:14 -But put ye ON the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfill the lusts thereof.
If you put on something, you're IN it.
Ga 3:27 - For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put ON Christ.
2Co 5:17 - Therefore if any man be IN Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
isa 64:6 - But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our RIGHTEOUSNESSESS are as filthy RAGS (as a garment); and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.
And now in my own words.......The priests had to wear linen (linen speaks of the RIGHTEOUSNESS of the saints) not mixed with wool. They ministered in the inner court, which speaks now of the priestly nation who have had the baptism IN His Spirit.
Wool speaks of the works of the flesh, which is exactly opposite of the Holy Ghost we received on our day of Pentecost, doing the works. The reason they were told by God not to wear wool, was because wool causes sweat and sweat is an offense to Him in His sanctuary.
Why? Because Adam's part of the curse was to get his BREAD by the SWEAT of his brow, ie. works. Jesus came to reverse the curse (s), this particular one was also reversed on the day of Pentecost as well, as we received the Holy Ghost which does the works.
So the inner court is the realm of the baptism in the Spirit, which is Christ. It's Jesus (outer court), Christ (inner court), Lord (Holy of Holies). So we "wear" or are IN CHRIST as a garment, a garment of "fine linen" because linen speaks of the righteousness of the saints, and because Christ IS the sanctuary now.
Now this particular revelation tying in sweat, linen, righteousness, works, and the Spirit of Christ, came with Him speaking to me, "Christ is the sanctuary now" in response to my plea to Him to give me something new that a pastor I was being sent to with a disciplinary word I was dreading giving, would not have heard anywhere (so that he would know I heard God in his situation also).
It triggered the flood of scriptures above to prove the word given to me from His mouth, as the Spirit comes to perform or illuminate the letter word, which is "dead" ie. not risen/resurrected, until He does. Blessings...
Quote from: Fireinfolding on January 05, 2009, 03:04:01 AM
Wheres the words "workman approved" that Paul added anything to it in respect to it?
You mean theres more then just studying and rightly dividing the scriptures? I would agree with that
And thats another thing though keeping His words would mean "judge not lest you be judged" and so keeping His words would be walking in obedience to His commands.
But judging "others words" (as even Paul admonished us to do) when he said, "Judge ye what I SAY" (even others as 2 or 3 others speak the others judge, we are admonished to do that.
Signs and wonders arent always an indicator it appears in regards to signs and wonders, you think?
Duet 13:2 And **the sign or the wonder **come to pass**, whereof he spake unto thee, saying, Let us go after other gods, which thou hast not known, and let us serve them;
Duet 13;13 Thou shalt not hearken unto the words of that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams: for the LORD your God proveth you, to know whether ye love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul.
Heres another
2Thes 2:9 [Even him], whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders
It shows He proves us and our love for the truth, and even Him.
Following after anyone for signs and wonders might not be a good idea think? :grin:
They are mentioned again here...
Mark 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if [it were] possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
:cloud9: I was referring to this....
2Ti 2:15 - Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
Jesus was approved by miracles, signs and wonders. We are approved of God in the same way. If so be it, our shame has been replaced with His righteousness, and we have rightly divided the word of truth.
Ever wonder why it says "rightly divided"? Because the Spirit of God who is our teacher, is the only One who can walk between the pieces, raising/resurrecting/lifting up the "fragments" so we can see Him face to face, ie. beholding ourselves as in a mirror, and hopefully NOT walking away and forgetting what manner of man we are. Blessings....
Quote from: Fireinfolding on January 05, 2009, 01:13:45 AM
[I sorta agree with this, it speaks of salt losing its savor and that savor elsewhere speaks of the knowledge of Christ.
Sorta reminds me of what becomes UNPROFITABLE in relation to "the savor" and that GIRDLE burried in the earth PROFITABLE for NOTHING :grin: Cardinal mentions the earth :grin:
On the topic of salt.....He gave me this.
He gives grace to the humble. This is why He can and will come as judgment, thru us, as we have allowed unconditional love of His to cleanse the motive of our hearts so that the judgments are righteous.
He quickened to me in another scripture once, ie. if my people who are called by My name will humble themselves and pray, that what He means by humbling is different from what we think (isn't it always?).
He said to humble ourselves is to empty ourselves of everything we think to take in everything He thinks. So as His thoughts are shared in a right motive, His Spirit as always, will go forth and perform the Word.
To the humble, it will be like a balm of milk and honey, soothing to the soul; to the "proud" flesh (oddly enough, a term in the natural that means "inflamed"), it will burn as fire and salt burns. Ever notice how the Word "burns" sometimes? It burns us as the "chaff" is being burnt.
This is why the Word is a two edged sword, why we are not to lose our salt. They that teach a false love devoid of judging any flesh, have lost their salt and therefore their ability to preserve and are good for nothing except to be trampled underfoot (like grapes, until the new wine of the Kingdom/Spirit comes forth). Blessings...
:cloud9: I gotcha. The problem is, if I explain, I'm REALLY long winded......
it reminds me a bit at the jewish view on purgatory, i also think punishment consists of remorse and seeing the evil people had done
Quote from: Fireinfolding on January 05, 2009, 03:16:48 AM
I like that naked analogy you made too when they disobeyed His words and listened to anothers, that was good
I got that one from 'ol doc Murray.
And suddenly Adam and Eve spring to mind, trying to cover their nakedness.
Quote from: sven on January 05, 2009, 07:51:53 PM
it reminds me a bit at the jewish view on purgatory, i also think punishment consists of remorse and seeing the evil people had done
I've never once heard from the pulpit that purgatory was a part of Judaism.
Everyone is told it was invented by the Catholics. At least in the US and UK.
Quote from: Fireinfolding on January 07, 2009, 03:53:02 AM
Quote from: MacPherson on January 07, 2009, 03:32:05 AM
Quote from: sven on January 05, 2009, 07:51:53 PM
it reminds me a bit at the jewish view on purgatory, i also think punishment consists of remorse and seeing the evil people had done
I've never once heard from the pulpit that purgatory was a part of Judaism.
Everyone is told it was invented by the Catholics. At least in the US and UK.
You know, I dont know if I would trust Judaism as a source have you ever read the talmud before? :mshock:
This is from the Talmud supposedly but not the english version which toned down from what I hear
Gittin 57a "'Yashu' is in Hell being boiled in hot excrement."
Have you ever done a search on Judaism and the Talmud?
Im still looking into this but it allows sex with a small child and other nasty things it appears, could this be what Jesus was so angry about in relation to what God says over what they traditionally look to as a higher authority in many things?
I was referring to Judaism in the time of Christ. What Judaic beliefs where when Jesus was talking about "hell". The Talmud is a long ways from the Torah.
Quote from: Fireinfolding on January 05, 2009, 03:16:48 AM
I like that naked analogy you made too when they disobeyed His words and listened to anothers, that was good
There's also "Behold, I come like a thief! Blessed is he who stays awake and keeps his clothes with him, so that he may not go naked and be shamefully exposed."
Revelation 16:15
Which really stood out reading Revelation last night, being the only red letter verse between ch. 4 to ch. 22
Quote from: Fireinfolding on January 07, 2009, 06:33:30 AM
Heres anothe reference to hell in the Jewish Talmud....are there "versions" to this thing? :grin:
Rosh Hashanah 17a Christians ("minim") and others who reject the Talmud will go to hell and be punished there for all generations
Sanhedrin 59a: "A Goy (Gentile) who pries into the law (Talmud) is guilty of death." :grin: (im doomed)
Libbre David 37: "To communicate anything with a Goy about our religious relations would be equal to the killing of all Jews, for if the Goyim knew what we teach about them, they would kill us openly.
Have you guys read this thing?
I have now. Thanks alot. Now I have to endure that "what if this is right?" syndrome.
QuoteHave you ever done a search on Judaism and the Talmud?
maybe some Jews aren't the most honest people, all Jewish sites i read state that they believe in "hell" only for 12 months, Maimonides a Jewish philosopher called hell an invention of men. but yes, without doubt some Jews believed in hell and maybe still do, eg. the Book of Enoch
Rev 3:9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.
thought of what we were talking about Fire
This is very intersting to me and now after looking into it more
I found this there a 3 types of Jews ?
In Jesus day and now ?
this site is very informative !!! Sadducees = "the righteous"
1) a religious party at the time of Christ among the Jews, who denied that the oral law was a revelation of God to the Israelites, and who deemed the written law alone to be obligatory on the nation, as the divine authority. They denied the following doctrines:
a) resurrection of the body
b) immortality of the soul
c) existence of spirits and angels
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/History/sadducees_pharisees_essenes.html (http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/History/sadducees_pharisees_essenes.html)
what I find is how literal they are and how they keep bound by the traditions of men !
I hope this is on topic :mblush:
Quote from: Fireinfolding on January 08, 2009, 11:17:58 PM
MacPherson :grin: I laughed when I saw your post, I didnt mean to give you doubts, I have such an eye opener reading the such differences between the Jews and I was never more pleasantly surprised to find a group that actually blessed me because most of them drove me crazy and Jesus speaking of stiff necks was all that come to mind :grin:
I was just joking. There was a time not too long ago.... But I'm past that now.
LOL
BRIAN hee hee now ya look just like Nates twin , with the handle bar mustache and eye glasses hee hee , you went on ya '' paint'' program
, how funny i noticed yer new look ! :icon_jokercolor: good one bro :thumbsup:
Hi Brian ...
nice to see the real you Bud....
:icon_flower:
Yeah, I saw the "modifications" as well . . . are they knocking down your door yet? A problem I've had all my life a course. :angel5:
Quote from: Nathan on January 09, 2009, 11:40:27 PM
Yeah, I saw the "modifications" as well . . . are they knocking down your door yet? A problem I've had all my life a course. :angel5:
:laughing7: :laughing7: :laughing7: :laughing7: :laughing7:
Babe Magnet, yeah I forgot :laughing7:
Hey, I jus calls em likes I sees em. I caint hep that God made me so perty.
Quote from: Nathan on January 10, 2009, 01:30:09 AM
Hey, I jus calls em likes I sees em. I caint hep that God made me so perty.
he ha
Just as wel ya Wife loves ya Bud :HeartThrob:
cos for sure, I would nt wont ta Kiss ya.. :laughing7:
but they say LOVE IS "BLIND" :icon_flower:
OR those who think they LOVE are Blind to it
Yup, and ifn ya don't mind turnin yours down just a hair . . . I'm having a little trouble breathin with all the warmth that's oozin outa ya.
When Jesus died on the cross, what is it that he endured? The way he generally is portrayed in movies and in sermons, you would think it was the physical pain, yet, while he certainly was in most horrendous pain, the scriptures tell us he endured something far more revealing. Revealing, because the answer deals specifically with what occurs with those who are without God. There is only one scripture which tells us what he endured with regard to the cross, and it's found in Hebrews 12:2:
looking to Yahushua, the author and finisher of steadiness, who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising its shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of the Mighty-Yoked-Guide.
Yes, it wasn't pain that was the focus, but shame. He took on the shame of the whole world, yet you rarely if ever hear anything concerning this.
While todays culture is more driven by the concept of guilt and innocence, in the east, and in biblical times it was driven by the concept of shame and honor. Knowing this sheds important light on the subject of what happens to those who remain in darkness.
Just a couple of thoughts regarding this I would like to share. First, Daniel speaks of the contrast of two types of people who are raised to life.
Dan 12:2 Many of those who sleep in the dust of the land shall awake, some to filled-stomachs in the horizon, and some to shame [producing weeping] and contempt [producing gnashing of teeth] in the horizon.
Here the contrast is between life and shame with contempt. No mention of physical pain here. Take another look at the different parables concerning what has been usually described as a future of physical torture and pain and I think you will find it actually not concerning those things at all, but rather shame. Also in looking again at the different scriptures speaking of the fate of the wicked, particularly in the psalms and proverbs, shame, not pain, is what is highlighted.
So his being revealed will produce different emotions, more or less intense. For to be in the presence of pure righteousness and light will be pure mental torment for the wicked, with weeping and gnashing of teeth, and mental anguish, but not from the one who is Love, for he bore their shame as well, though they do not know it. It is a product of their own mind, the judgment that was accomplished in Christ, yet hangs over them. They will indeed be hurt by the second death, whatever portion they have in it as the lake of fire.
I think of Joseph's brothers, who, although having been forgiven by Joseph, still were tormented mentally in shame, thinking they were "gonna get it but good", especially when their father died. This to me is a picture of being hurt by the second death, that fiery trial Joseph put them through until he revealed who he was to them and God's hand in their lives through their evil.
For those of us in Christ, we can rejoice that our sense of shame has been dealt with so that we may appear before him in boldness, with joy, for he has taken us out of the realm of shame and brought us into his realm of honor. Therefore we will not be hurt by the second death, for it has no power over us.
Ron
I've been playing with those words too. Below what I scribbled down:
(sorry for the bad formatting)
Quote1 Corinthians 11:32 and being judged by the Lord, we are chastened .... => We are judged by being chastened.
Titus 2:11-12 For the saving grace of God was manifested to all men, teaching us, that .... => Teaching is the grace of God.
Revelation 20:10 .... and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
Judged Þ Chastened Þ Teaching Þ Grace
God corrects His children by teaching them, so He can approve them with love
QuoteGod corrects His children by teaching them, so He can approve them with love
Quote
Strong definitions
Teaching + Chastened
paideu,w paideuo {pahee-dyoo'-o}
Meaning:
to train children
to be instructed or taught or learn
to cause one to learn
to chastise
to chastise or castigate with words, to correct
of those who are moulding the character of others by reproof and admonition
of God
to chasten by the affliction of evils and calamities
to chastise with blows, to scourge
of a father punishing his son
of a judge ordering one to be scourged
Grace
ca,rij charis {khar'-ece}
Meaning:
grace
that which affords joy, pleasure, delight, sweetness, charm, loveliness: grace of speech
good will, loving-kindness, favour
of the merciful kindness by which God, exerting his holy influence upon souls, turns them to Christ, keeps, strengthens, increases them in Christian faith, knowledge, affection, and kindles them to the exercise of the Christian virtues
what is due to grace
the spiritual condition of one governed by the power of divine grace
the token or proof of grace, benefit
a gift of grace
benefit, bounty
thanks, (for benefits, services, favours), recompense, reward
Judged
kri,nw krino {kree'-no}
Meaning:
to separate, put asunder, to pick out, select, choose
to approve, esteem, to prefer
to be of opinion, deem, think, to be of opinion
to determine, resolve, decree
to judge
to pronounce an opinion concerning right and wrong
to be judged, i.e. summoned to trial that one's case may be examined and judgment passed upon it
to pronounce judgment, to subject to censure
of those who act the part of judges or arbiters in matters of common life, or pass judgment on the deeds and words of others
to rule, govern
to preside over with the power of giving judicial decisions, because it was the prerogative of kings and rulers to pass judgment
to contend together, of warriors and combatants
to dispute
in a forensic sense
to go to law, have suit at law
Tormented
928 basani,zw basanizo {bas-an-id'-zo}
Meaning:
to test (metals) by the touchstone, which is a black siliceous stone used to test the purity of gold or silver by the color of the streak produced on it by rubbing it with either metal
to question by applying torture
to torture
to vex with grievous pains (of body or mind), to torment
to be harassed, distressed
of those who at sea are struggling with a head wind
Bit better formated version attached.
wow Good work Tony WW ,
very clear , I can see there is alot to consider
The forum is slow and weird format display today for me , is anyone else having this trounble ? :sigh:
I will not be on much today because of this format problem on my end lol ..
have a nice day all :HeartThrob:
willieH: Hi Gregoryfl... :cloud9:
Quote from: gregoryfl on January 22, 2009, 08:56:17 AM
When Jesus died on the cross, what is it that he endured? The way he generally is portrayed in movies and in sermons, you would think it was the physical pain, yet, while he certainly was in most horrendous pain, the scriptures tell us he endured something far more revealing. Revealing, because the answer deals specifically with what occurs with those who are without God. There is only one scripture which tells us what he endured with regard to the cross, and it's found in Hebrews 12:2:
looking to Yahushua, the author and finisher of steadiness, who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising its shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of the Mighty-Yoked-Guide.
Mighty-Yoked-Guide? :laughing7: Sorry bro... but the more modern the translations get, the more "out of touch" they appear as they endeavor to use such wordings...
It kind of reminds me of the modern day Generation... they have blue hair, tatoos on most visible portions of their bodies, and what is not tatooed is pierced... Which in my observation is a statement that the natural look they were given by GOD was just not GOOD ENOUGH and had to be IMPROVED upon...
QuoteYes, it wasn't pain that was the focus, but shame. He took on the shame of the whole world, yet you rarely if ever hear anything concerning this.
While todays culture is more driven by the concept of guilt and innocence, in the east, and in biblical times it was driven by the concept of shame and honor. Knowing this sheds important light on the subject of what happens to those who remain in darkness.
Just a couple of thoughts regarding this I would like to share. First, Daniel speaks of the contrast of two types of people who are raised to life.
Dan 12:2 Many of those who sleep in the dust of the land shall awake, some to filled-stomachs in the horizon, and some to shame [producing weeping] and contempt [producing gnashing of teeth] in the horizon.
I don't condemn you for this observation bro... WEEPING, because of SHAME, well, I agree with, for when I came to
CHRIST in MY SHAME, I certainly WEPT! :Mcry: It was not a TORMENTING event, it was a CLEANSING event...
GOD is IMPARTIAL to men... and HE brought us each into this life, with the KNOWLEDGE of our ENTIRE LIFE, before ONE shameful deed was committed... Putting us into different environments, which have varying AFFECTS on our behavioral outcome... So for Him to make one
"GNASH TEETH" and not another, is an example of
PARTIALITY... But that upon the REVELATION of
JESUS CHRIST in each life, ...each in turn would experience their due
SHAME for their part in His DEATH... that to me, more demonstrates, IMPARTIALITY.
But, just for funsies, ...let me ask you, ...WHEN have you observed
"GNASHING of TEETH" as a reaction to SHAME? :dontknow:
QuoteHere the contrast is between life and shame with contempt. No mention of physical pain here. Take another look at the different parables concerning what has been usually described as a future of physical torture and pain and I think you will find it actually not concerning those things at all, but rather shame. Also in looking again at the different scriptures speaking of the fate of the wicked, particularly in the psalms and proverbs, shame, not pain, is what is highlighted.
I agree with this portion of your post... the "fate of the WICKED" is a common one, for the UNREVEALED HEART, is DESPARATELY WICKED, and found in EACH human being.
QuoteSo his being revealed will produce different emotions, more or less intense. For to be in the presence of pure righteousness and light will be pure mental torment for the wicked, with weeping and gnashing of teeth, and mental anguish, but not from the one who is Love, for he bore their shame as well, though they do not know it. It is a product of their own mind, the judgment that was accomplished in Christ, yet hangs over them. They will indeed be hurt by the second death, whatever portion they have in it as the lake of fire.
Sorry bro, but my "agreement phase" is ended...
Whether you realize this or not, you are
IN the
Lake of FIRE, ...NOW... and because YOU have been chosen to know GOD NOW, and you have born your SHAME before Him NOW, ...means that you do not have to be "hurt" by repeating this event. But for those who have NOT been chosen... their SHAME shall not be WORSE than was YOURS, or GOD is displaying PARTIALITY...
It is of HIS CHOOSING, who comes to
CHRIST in this life (John 6:44)... and because others you observe as due SHAME which shall cause MENTAL TORMENT, and GNASHING of TEETH as well as SHAME, because they have not DONE as have YOU in this life... is (IMO) a misobservation of IMPARTIALITY...
The above is a proposal of ONE getting "better" from God, than does another, even though HE CHOSE who they would be, when they would be, what would surround them in their molding processes, etc...
SHAME is due ALL of us, for ALL have SINNED... and that SHAME is not meant as TORMENT, it is meant as a RECONCILING event, ...for GOD is LOVE (1 John 4:8) and, ...
TORMENT is not a part of LOVE, and LOVE does not
TORMENT its object (1 John 4:18), it seeks to
REDEEM it from
TORMENT.
To teach otherwise, is contrary to the teaching of what DIVINE LOVE is... DIVINE LOVE is about FORGIVENESS, and RECONCILATION... not TORMENTING one and not the other...
QuoteI think of Joseph's brothers, who, although having been forgiven by Joseph, still were tormented mentally in shame, thinking they were "gonna get it but good", especially when their father died. This to me is a picture of being hurt by the second death, that fiery trial Joseph put them through until he revealed who he was to them and God's hand in their lives through their evil.
Again, I believe your observation of SHAME is in the negative... and when LOVE is applied to SHAME, it finds that SHAME as a RECONCILING element, not a TORMENTING one...
QuoteFor those of us in Christ, we can rejoice that our sense of shame has been dealt with so that we may appear before him in boldness, with joy, for he has taken us out of the realm of shame and brought us into his realm of honor. Therefore we will not be hurt by the second death, for it has no power over us.
Ron
This means you have already "hit your knees" Ron... And therefore, you have been CHOSEN to be a light in this present darkness... :HeartThrob:
However, ...those that have yet to be revealed, shall find no more TORMENT in "hitting their knees", than have you... :dontknow:
And THAT is ...GOOD NEWS!
In JESUS the name above ALL NAMES...
:laughing7:
willieH :laughing7:
Quote from: willieH on January 22, 2009, 10:27:06 PM
willieH: Hi Gregoryfl... :cloud9:
Quote from: gregoryfl on January 22, 2009, 08:56:17 AM
When Jesus died on the cross, what is it that he endured? The way he generally is portrayed in movies and in sermons, you would think it was the physical pain, yet, while he certainly was in most horrendous pain, the scriptures tell us he endured something far more revealing. Revealing, because the answer deals specifically with what occurs with those who are without God. There is only one scripture which tells us what he endured with regard to the cross, and it's found in Hebrews 12:2:
looking to Yahushua, the author and finisher of steadiness, who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising its shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of the Mighty-Yoked-Guide.
Mighty-Yoked-Guide? :laughing7: Sorry bro... but the more modern the translations get, the more "out of touch" they appear as they endeavor to use such wordings...
It kind of reminds me of the modern day Generation... they have blue hair, tatoos on most visible portions of their bodies, and what is not tatooed is pierced... Which in my observation is a statement that the natural look they were given by GOD was just not GOOD ENOUGH and had to be IMPROVED upon...
QuoteYes, it wasn't pain that was the focus, but shame. He took on the shame of the whole world, yet you rarely if ever hear anything concerning this.
While todays culture is more driven by the concept of guilt and innocence, in the east, and in biblical times it was driven by the concept of shame and honor. Knowing this sheds important light on the subject of what happens to those who remain in darkness.
Just a couple of thoughts regarding this I would like to share. First, Daniel speaks of the contrast of two types of people who are raised to life.
Dan 12:2 Many of those who sleep in the dust of the land shall awake, some to filled-stomachs in the horizon, and some to shame [producing weeping] and contempt [producing gnashing of teeth] in the horizon.
I don't condemn you for this observation bro... WEEPING, because of SHAME, well, I agree with, for when I came to CHRIST in MY SHAME, I certainly WEPT! :Mcry: It was not a TORMENTING event, it was a CLEANSING event...
GOD is IMPARTIAL to men... and HE brought us each into this life, with the KNOWLEDGE of our ENTIRE LIFE, before ONE shameful deed was committed... Putting us into different environments, which have varying AFFECTS on our behavioral outcome... So for Him to make one "GNASH TEETH" and not another, is an example of PARTIALITY... But that upon the REVELATION of JESUS CHRIST in each life, ...each in turn would experience their due SHAME for their part in His DEATH... that to me, THAT more demonstrates, IMPARTIALITY.
But, just for funsies, ...let me ask you, ...WHEN have you observed "GNASHING of TEETH" as a reaction to SHAME? :dontknow:
QuoteHere the contrast is between life and shame with contempt. No mention of physical pain here. Take another look at the different parables concerning what has been usually described as a future of physical torture and pain and I think you will find it actually not concerning those things at all, but rather shame. Also in looking again at the different scriptures speaking of the fate of the wicked, particularly in the psalms and proverbs, shame, not pain, is what is highlighted.
I agree with this portion of your post... the "fate of the WICKED" is a common one, for the UNREVEALED HEART, is DESPARATELY WICKED, and found in EACH human being.
QuoteSo his being revealed will produce different emotions, more or less intense. For to be in the presence of pure righteousness and light will be pure mental torment for the wicked, with weeping and gnashing of teeth, and mental anguish, but not from the one who is Love, for he bore their shame as well, though they do not know it. It is a product of their own mind, the judgment that was accomplished in Christ, yet hangs over them. They will indeed be hurt by the second death, whatever portion they have in it as the lake of fire.
Sorry bro, but my "agreement phase" is ended...
Whether you realize this or not, you are IN the Lake of FIRE, ...NOW... and because YOU have been chosen to know GOD NOW, and you have born your SHAME before Him NOW, ...means that you do not have to be "hurt" by repeating this event. But for those who have NOT been chosen... their SHAME shall not be WORSE than was YOURS, or GOD is displaying PARTIALITY...
It is of HIS CHOOSING, who comes to CHRIST in this life (John 6:44)... and because others you observe as due SHAME which shall cause MENTAL TORMENT, and GNASHING of TEETH as well as SHAME, because they have not DONE as have YOU in this life... is (IMO) a misobservation of IMPARTIALITY...
The above is a proposal of ONE getting "better" from God, than does another, even though HE CHOSE who they would be, when they would be, what would surround them in their molding processes, etc...
SHAME is due ALL of us, for ALL have SINNED... and that SHAME is not meant as TORMENT, it is meant as a RECONCILING event, ...for GOD is LOVE (1 John 4:8) and, ...TORMENT is not a part of LOVE, and LOVE does not TORMENT its object (1 John 4:18), it seeks to REDEEM it from TORMENT.
To teach otherwise, is contrary to the teaching of what DIVINE LOVE is... DIVINE LOVE is about FORGIVENESS, and RECONCILATION... not TORMENTING one and not the other...
QuoteI think of Joseph's brothers, who, although having been forgiven by Joseph, still were tormented mentally in shame, thinking they were "gonna get it but good", especially when their father died. This to me is a picture of being hurt by the second death, that fiery trial Joseph put them through until he revealed who he was to them and God's hand in their lives through their evil.
Again, I believe your observation of SHAME is in the negative... and when LOVE is applied to SHAME, it finds that SHAME as a RECONCILING element, not a TORMENTING one...
QuoteFor those of us in Christ, we can rejoice that our sense of shame has been dealt with so that we may appear before him in boldness, with joy, for he has taken us out of the realm of shame and brought us into his realm of honor. Therefore we will not be hurt by the second death, for it has no power over us.
Ron
This means you have already "hit your knees" Ron... And therefore, you have been CHOSEN to be a light in this present darkness... :HeartThrob:
However, ...those that have yet to be revealed, shall find no more TORMENT in "hitting their knees", than have you... :dontknow:
And THAT is ...GOOD NEWS!
In JESUS the name above ALL NAMES...
:laughing7: willieH :laughing7:
Psa 83:17 Let them be confounded and troubled for ever; yea,
let them be put to shame, and
perish:
Jhn 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him
should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Jhn 11:26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me
shall never die. Believest thou this?
Mat 7:14 Because strait [is] the gate, and
narrow [is] the way, which leadeth unto life, and
few there be that find it.
Mat 21:44 And
whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on
whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.
Willie, do you believe all go through the wide gait, and through this gait we find life?
Hey there Willie,
Actually, we agree on more than you think there. I may not have expressed some of those things in a way that shows that, but I agree with much of what you shared. For example, I do believe that we are in the lake of fire today. That lake of fire I believe to be God himself, a consuming fire that purifies.
I am of course, still working out many things in my mind on these matters, and so am always willing to have my thoughts refined. The reason I wrote that I thought there would be varying degrees of shame is because of the verse I see concerning, for example, some being beaten with many stripes and some with few. If you have any thoughts on that please do share.
As for the verse about shame and contempt, there are a couple ways I can understand it. If these are 2 feelings that a person shows, then there are many examples, women molesters to take one, who feel shame from being rejected by women, which leads them to show contempt, or to despise women and thus hurt them.
I believe that the jews who stoned Steven felt shame from being exposed as they were, being disgraced by Steven, which led them to gnash their teeth at him. However, like you said, and I agree wholeheartedly, that this shame and contempt these are going through now, for I believe this is speaking about now, will ultimately lead to a cleansing for them.
One last thing, about the translation I have, yes, I know it may sound very weird to read of God as a Mighty-Yoked-Guide, but my translation is an attempt to bring out as much as possible the Hebraic concrete meanings of the words. Of course, I don't expect it to resonate with everyone and that is fine. To whom it may benefit, then that is who I hope it ministers to. Of course, only if I ever complete it. I don't have the fancy computer programs professionals use. :laughing7:
Thanks for your sharpening thoughts my brother.
Ron
willieH: Hi
Z :eek:
Quote from: Zeek on January 23, 2009, 12:56:26 AM
Willie, do you believe all go through the wide gait, and through this gait we find life?
No... but GOD decides who does or does not walk through the Narrow Gate bro... You do NOTHING of yourself, or you make yourself more than did
JESUS, for He said:
The SON of man CAN do NOTHING of Himself... (John 5:19 / 5:30)
So if you are found walking thru the Narrow gate... then consider it a blessing with PURPOSE, not that
YOU somehow, made the right call...
GOD has PURPOSE in ALL bro... MUCH of which we do NOT SEE... If you KNOW Him, and I believe you DO, ...then you KNOW THIS... :cloud9:
In JESUS the name above ALL NAMES...
:laughing7:
willieH :laughing7:
willieH: Hi Ron... :hithere:
Quote from: gregoryfl on January 23, 2009, 03:54:04 AM
Hey there Willie,
Actually, we agree on more than you think there. I may not have expressed some of those things in a way that shows that, but I agree with much of what you shared. For example, I do believe that we are in the lake of fire today. That lake of fire I believe to be God himself, a consuming fire that purifies.
Well, Paul noted that (Acts 17:28)
IN HIM, ...we LIVE, MOVE and have our BEING... if this is indeed true (which it is), and He is a CONSUMING FIRE... then we are AMIDST that FIRE!
QuoteI am of course, still working out many things in my mind on these matters, and so am always willing to have my thoughts refined. The reason I wrote that I thought there would be varying degrees of shame is because of the verse I see concerning, for example, some being beaten with many stripes and some with few. If you have any thoughts on that please do share.
More than happy to bro... Some will experience the sufferings of
CHRIST in this life... If we follow Him, and our lives are found merged into His...then we shall likely SUFFER as did He... this was typical of His followers of old, why should the pattern change?
I consider it a privilidge to recieve stripes... I just had MAJOR SURGERY (I presently have cancer brother)... and at 63, it just aint as easy as it once was... :sigh:
I have confessed my SHAME and battled through many adversities in my lifetime... which I shall not disclose here... but suffice it to say... it would definitely shock some. If I am due stripes, then so be the will of GOD in me... :Pray:
QuoteAs for the verse about shame and contempt, there are a couple ways I can understand it. If these are 2 feelings that a person shows, then there are many examples, women molesters to take one, who feel shame from being rejected by women, which leads them to show contempt, or to despise women and thus hurt them.
There is much to the human mental condition that is not at all, understood by men... One cannot deduce his or her own, or anothers behavioral summary upon that which one can MENTALLY recall or even observes in the other...
Our recall is pretty pathetic in the best of us... How many can name what they had for lunch 10 days ago... or what shirt they wore last tuesday?
So to determine WHO we are, and WHY we are the way we are... is information pretty much privy to the Creator. Irregardless of what we might THINK we know...
QuoteI believe that the jews who stoned Steven felt shame from being exposed as they were, being disgraced by Steven, which led them to gnash their teeth at him. However, like you said, and I agree wholeheartedly, that this shame and contempt these are going through now, for I believe this is speaking about now, will ultimately lead to a cleansing for them.
One last thing, about the translation I have, yes, I know it may sound very weird to read of God as a Mighty-Yoked-Guide, but my translation is an attempt to bring out as much as possible the Hebraic concrete meanings of the words. Of course, I don't expect it to resonate with everyone and that is fine. To whom it may benefit, then that is who I hope it ministers to. Of course, only if I ever complete it. I don't have the fancy computer programs professionals use. :laughing7:
Thanks for your sharpening thoughts my brother.
Ron
No offense was intended against any endeavor to translate the Holy Scriptures... I just find that it is adding to confusion to add more and more of them as time goes on, because it allows people to look for a version which supports their beliefs, and use that verse from the version most "doctrine friendly"... I stick with KJV regardless of its myriads of errors... I believe it is sufficient ground to stand on, whether or not it might support my thinking.
This way, I don't have to "recall" which version I made my points from... :laughing7:
In other words... if the KJV doesn't work for my UR belief, I'll just look and see if the ASB or NIV, or Message, or whatever... more supports my viewpoint... :mnah:
You are a genuine guy Ron... thanks for your reply bro... :friendstu:
In JESUS the name above ALL NAMES...
:laughing7:
willieH :laughing7:
Quote from: willieH on January 23, 2009, 09:52:40 AM
willieH: Hi Z :eek:
Quote from: Zeek on January 23, 2009, 12:56:26 AM
Willie, do you believe all go through the wide gait, and through this gait we find life?
No... but GOD decides who does or does not walk through the Narrow Gate bro... You do NOTHING of yourself, or you make yourself more than did JESUS, for He said:
The SON of man CAN do NOTHING of Himself... (John 5:19 / 5:30)
So if you are found walking thru the Narrow gate... then consider it a blessing with PURPOSE, not that YOU somehow, made the right call...
GOD has PURPOSE in ALL bro... MUCH of which we do NOT SEE... If you KNOW Him, and I believe you DO, ...then you KNOW THIS... :cloud9:
In JESUS the name above ALL NAMES...
:laughing7: willieH :laughing7:
but isn't this God demonstrating unequal treatment/partiality?
:cloud9: Willie, as I was reading your words on this thread, the thought of the Lord came to me to speak an abounding of His life to you. That's all.... :HeartThrob:
willieH: Hi
Z :eek:
Quote from: Zeek on January 23, 2009, 12:56:26 AM
Willie, do you believe all go through the wide gait, and through this gait we find life?
Quote from: willieH on January 23, 2009, 09:52:40 AMNo... but GOD decides who does or does not walk through the Narrow Gate bro... You do NOTHING of yourself, or you make yourself more than did JESUS, for He said:
The SON of man CAN do NOTHING of Himself... (John 5:19 / 5:30)
So if you are found walking thru the Narrow gate... then consider it a blessing with PURPOSE, not that YOU somehow, made the right call...
GOD has PURPOSE in ALL bro... MUCH of which we do NOT SEE... If you KNOW Him, and I believe you DO, ...then you KNOW THIS... :cloud9:
*** I would like to add something to this that I forgot... is this WALK [thru the "wide & narrow" gates], done NOW? And if we are "walking" thru the "LIFE or DESTRUCTION gates" NOW, is not NOW the result taking place?
Failing to realize that we are ALL part of ALL THINGS, which GOD is working NOW, is to place LIFE and DESTRUCTION beyond... which is a (not meaning offense) [IMO] astray observation, for GOD gives NONE the ability to SEE what is BEYOND. So how may we determine it? :mshock:
LIFE and DESTRUCTION are in THIS LIFE... for
only LIFE [GOD] is in that which is beyond this present life...
You can't see this? Fine bro, we all are either learning or not learning... :cloud9: At the CHOOSING of GOD... and IN THAT, if we are WISE, we shall know that there are things we are YET to KNOW... :dontknow:
Quote from: Zeek on January 23, 2009, 03:12:18 PMbut isn't this God demonstrating unequal treatment/partiality?
I think you missed what I said brother... Consider it a blessing that you are chosen to sojourn the NARROW pathway which your SAVIOR walked...
That GOD chooses to do as He does, does not involve PARTIALITY because His PURPOSE for ALL has to do with ALL being CHOSEN to
do what they do in their [NARROW and WIDE] parts of THAT PURPOSE... which demonstrates GOOD
versus EVIL, ...to
ALL...
That YOU have been chosen to "walk through the NARROW GATE" is
NOT an EASY JOURNEY! But that you recognize that HE chose you to walk this journey (even though it is a rough and often thankless trek) is a
BLESSING.
Might I suggest the example of
JESUS CHRIST... He was CHOSEN and SENT to Save the WORLD... was it "easy"?
(do I need to answer this for you?)... Was it a BLESSING?
(again, do I need to answer this for you?)... Was it for the GOOD of ALL?
(one more time, need an answer?) Though it was very HARD and often PAINFUL in physical, mental and spiritual ways, was it WORTH IT? Was His journey through that gate and on that pathway, "about Him" or about US? :Chinscratch:
Well brother... that
YOU are chosen to walk on the pathway and through the GATE which
JESUS walked through, finds ALL the same QUESTIONS with ALL the same ANSWERS... :dontknow:
Is it your perception that
your journey is, ...about
YOU? If it is, then it is a walk other than was HIS... :sigh:
GOD's choosing is NEVER about PARTIALITY, ...it is about ACCOMPLISHMENT... The UNSPIRITUAL would say about PARTIALITY:
:blahgreen: Well, not EVERYONE is "good looking", and not EVERYONE is born of "wealthy" parents, and not EVERYONE is as "talented" as some, etc. Does this NOT DISPLAY
PARTIALITY with GOD? :blah:
Can you answer this
Z :eek: ???
Try this: If EVERYONE was born WEALTHY or GOOD LOOKING, how might we KNOW what these things actually MEAN? If GOD made ALL "GOOD LOOKING", how might we KNOW that ALL are in such a state? :dontknow:
We would in fact, ALL be beautiful, yet we would ALSO be WITHOUT the ability to recognize BEAUTY, and certainly devoid of the ability to be THANKFUL that He made us so, BECAUSE we could not RECOGNIZE the Beauty of HIS work in us... :dontknow: ...eh? :dontknow:
If ALL were the EYE, where would be the HEARING? If ALL were the HAND, where would be the FEET? heLLo??? ...Air-ye catchin-me-drift ...matey?
PARTIALITY from a CARNAL view, sees LACK by comparisons in the PHYSICAL world, without regard to the HIGHER planes we live in...
Of the SPIRITUAL, ...You might take the "same road", and say that GOD making PETER -- Peter, instead of
me, is PARTIALITY in the Spirit... and to that I would quote the Apostle Paul:
Rom 9:20 ...Nay but, O man WHO ART THOU that repliest against [talks back TO] GOD? Shall the thing FORMED say unto Him that FORMED, ...WHY hast THOU made ME, thus?
I leave you with this z... unless YOU [or I], are able to see the PURPOSES of GOD in the OVERALL, then you [or I] are NOT in position to QUESTION the WAY He ordains and SETS in place ALL THINGS, as HE WORKS together, ...ALL THINGS... after the counsel [advising] of HIS OWN WILL (Eph 1:11)
In JESUS the name above ALL NAMES...
:laughing7:
willieH :laughing7:
willieH: Hi sister R... :hithere:
Quote from: Cardinal on January 23, 2009, 05:32:40 PM
:cloud9: Willie, as I was reading your words on this thread, the thought of the Lord came to me to speak an abounding of His life to you. That's all.... :HeartThrob:
:ty: :HeartThrob: :cloud9:
In JESUS the name above ALL NAMES...
:laughing7:
willieH :laughing7:
Quote from: willieH on January 23, 2009, 10:06:12 PM
willieH: Hi Z :eek:
Quote from: Zeek on January 23, 2009, 12:56:26 AM
Willie, do you believe all go through the wide gait, and through this gait we find life?
Quote from: willieH on January 23, 2009, 09:52:40 AMNo... but GOD decides who does or does not walk through the Narrow Gate bro... You do NOTHING of yourself, or you make yourself more than did JESUS, for He said:
The SON of man CAN do NOTHING of Himself... (John 5:19 / 5:30)
So if you are found walking thru the Narrow gate... then consider it a blessing with PURPOSE, not that YOU somehow, made the right call...
GOD has PURPOSE in ALL bro... MUCH of which we do NOT SEE... If you KNOW Him, and I believe you DO, ...then you KNOW THIS... :cloud9:
*** I would like to add something to this that I forgot... is this WALK [thru the "wide & narrow" gates], done NOW? And if we are "walking" thru the "LIFE or DESTRUCTION gates" NOW, is not NOW the result taking place?
Failing to realize that we are ALL part of ALL THINGS, which GOD is working NOW, is to place LIFE and DESTRUCTION beyond... which is a (not meaning offense) [IMO] astray observation, for GOD gives NONE the ability to SEE what is BEYOND. So how may we determine it? :mshock:
LIFE and DESTRUCTION are in THIS LIFE... for only LIFE [GOD] is in that which is beyond this present life...
You can't see this? Fine bro, we all are either learning or not learning... :cloud9: At the CHOOSING of GOD... and IN THAT, if we are WISE, we shall know that there are things we are YET to KNOW... :dontknow:
Quote from: Zeek on January 23, 2009, 03:12:18 PMbut isn't this God demonstrating unequal treatment/partiality?
I think you missed what I said brother... Consider it a blessing that you are chosen to sojourn the NARROW pathway which your SAVIOR walked...
That GOD chooses to do as He does, does not involve PARTIALITY because His PURPOSE for ALL has to do with ALL being CHOSEN to do what they do in their [NARROW and WIDE] parts of THAT PURPOSE... which demonstrates GOOD versus EVIL, ...to ALL...
That YOU have been chosen to "walk through the NARROW GATE" is NOT an EASY JOURNEY! But that you recognize that HE chose you to walk this journey (even though it is a rough and often thankless trek) is a BLESSING.
Might I suggest the example of JESUS CHRIST... He was CHOSEN and SENT to Save the WORLD... was it "easy"? (do I need to answer this for you?)... Was it a BLESSING? (again, do I need to answer this for you?)... Was it for the GOOD of ALL? (one more time, need an answer?) Though it was very HARD and often PAINFUL in physical, mental and spiritual ways, was it WORTH IT? Was His journey through that gate and on that pathway, "about Him" or about US? :Chinscratch:
Well brother... that YOU are chosen to walk on the pathway and through the GATE which JESUS walked through, finds ALL the same QUESTIONS with ALL the same ANSWERS... :dontknow:
Is it your perception that your journey is, ...about YOU? If it is, then it is a walk other than was HIS... :sigh:
GOD's choosing is NEVER about PARTIALITY, ...it is about ACCOMPLISHMENT... The UNSPIRITUAL would say about PARTIALITY:
:blahgreen: Well, not EVERYONE is "good looking", and not EVERYONE is born of "wealthy" parents, and not EVERYONE is as "talented" as some, etc. Does this NOT DISPLAY PARTIALITY with GOD? :blah:
Can you answer this Z :eek: ???
Try this: If EVERYONE was born WEALTHY or GOOD LOOKING, how might we KNOW what these things actually MEAN? If GOD made ALL "GOOD LOOKING", how might we KNOW that ALL are in such a state? :dontknow:
We would in fact, ALL be beautiful, yet we would ALSO be WITHOUT the ability to recognize BEAUTY, and certainly devoid of the ability to be THANKFUL that He made us so, BECAUSE we could not RECOGNIZE the Beauty of HIS work in us... :dontknow: ...eh? :dontknow:
If ALL were the EYE, where would be the HEARING? If ALL were the HAND, where would be the FEET? heLLo??? ...Air-ye catchin-me-drift ...matey?
PARTIALITY from a CARNAL view, sees LACK by comparisons in the PHYSICAL world, without regard to the HIGHER planes we live in...
Of the SPIRITUAL, ...You might take the "same road", and say that GOD making PETER -- Peter, instead of me, is PARTIALITY in the Spirit... and to that I would quote the Apostle Paul:
Rom 9:20 ...Nay but, O man WHO ART THOU that repliest against [talks back TO] GOD? Shall the thing FORMED say unto Him that FORMED, ...WHY hast THOU made ME, thus?
I leave you with this z... unless YOU [or I], are able to see the PURPOSES of GOD in the OVERALL, then you [or I] are NOT in position to QUESTION the WAY He ordains and SETS in place ALL THINGS, as HE WORKS together, ...ALL THINGS... after the counsel [advising] of HIS OWN WILL (Eph 1:11)
In JESUS the name above ALL NAMES...
:laughing7: willieH :laughing7:
thanks for clarifying willie. I appreciate your response.
Z
willieH: Hi
Z :eek:
Quote from: Zeek on January 23, 2009, 10:16:27 PM
thanks for clarifying willie. I appreciate your response.
Z
You bet me-bratha! :friendstu:
PS... hope you dont mind the
Z :eek: ...thing, I mean no offense or sarcasm, just fun... :wink2: :laughing7:
In JESUS the name above ALL NAMES...
:laughing7:
willieH :laughing7: