Torment = Shame and Regret?

[MacPherson]

I was playing catch up reading "My Utmost For His Highest" a daily devotional complied by the wife of Oswald Chambers. Jan 1st starts out with Philippians 1:20
"My eager desire and hope being that I may never feel ashamed, but that now as ever I may do honor to Christ in my own person by fearless courage" (Moffatt)

"My eager desire and hope being that I may never feel ashamed".
We shall all feel very much ashamed if we do not yield to Jesus on the point He has asked us to yield for Him.

All of a sudden passages like wailing and gnashing of teeth, and the Rich Man in Luke talking about being in torment, suddenly translated into expressions of... Shame.

Could it be all of that wailing and torment simply translates as shame?

Is really as simple as that?

I remember that one of the supreme tortures inflicted upon the detainees at the Guantánamo Bay Detention Camp, was to subject them to intense shame.

It's said that the number 1 fear that most people have, is speaking in front of an audience. Death, is the number 2 fear that most people have. To paraphrase something I heard Jerry Seinfeld say, "This means that most people would rather be the person in the casket, than the person delivering the eulogy!"

Why? SHAME! They're terrified of being embarrassed.

In many cultures, a person would kill themselves over or to avoid shame.

Shame is Torment!

In the case of the Bible however, it would be the person feeling intense shame for their own wrongdoing and shortsightedness, in the searing light of pure righteousness, rather than anything God is inflicting upon them.

Eternal Torment . Age-during Punishment. Age-abiding Correction. = Shame?

By Jove (or more correctly Holy Spirit), do I have it? :icon_king:

Bill

[martincisneros]

I'm not sure if they're equivalents, although the Bible does speak of God shaming Israel with all of His goodness and that they'd never again open their mouths.  Probably not literally a perpetual vow of silence, but in the sense that we'd even use it in modern English where a certain subject is closed, a debate is gone, nothing more to complain about, someone's presumption has been put in it's proper place, etc.

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Interesting thought. I always took the shame to be from not being IN Christ, ie. not being clothed with the garment of righteousness that comes from the Spirit. Blessings...

Jer 23:40 -
    And I will bring an everlasting reproach upon you, and a perpetual shame, which shall not be forgotten.

Da 12:2 -
    And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

PS. So I could see how that could apply, as He removes our shame and thus our "torment" from not being in Christ.

[rosered]

  This is  good stuff Mac ,
 
  the last day church  and the warning   came to mind as well ...
 

  And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;


Rev 3:15 I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.


Rev 3:16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.

Rev 3:17 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:

Rev 3:18 I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and [that] the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.


Rev 3:19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.
shame here is 152  greek  word  aischynē

1) the confusion of one who is ashamed of anything, sense of shame

2) ignominy, disgrace, dishonour

3) a thing to be ashamed of

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Well, there's more to the workman being approved. Jesus was "approved among us by signs and wonders", which is what He gave me to show me to keep my mouth shut in regards to judging some of my brethren one time, who were not quite up to "my" standards because they didn't have the revelation I had regarding the rapture.

Signs and wonders follow them that believe, and so if someone has signs and wonders following them, wisdom dictates to leave them alone, lest we find we are boxing with God. Blessings...

[MacPherson]

:cloud9: Interesting thought. I always took the shame to be from not being IN Christ, ie. not being clothed with the garment of righteousness that comes from the Spirit. Blessings...

Jer 23:40 -
    And I will bring an everlasting reproach upon you, and a perpetual shame, which shall not be forgotten.

Da 12:2 -
    And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

PS. So I could see how that could apply, as He removes our shame and thus our "torment" from not being in Christ.

As this is turning over in my mind, I'm also thinking of regret as well. I remember a preacher saying how some people say they don't care about rewards or a garment of righteousness, they'll be satisfied with just making it by the skin of their teeth. But when they're before God standing naked, they will care. I'll take any interpretation that detracts from the God literally torturing people with a blowtorch type of scenario.
Could be that the shame, regret etc. that those who haven't been saved are doomed to endure, while it's what those who have been washed white as snow, will be saved from. How awful it would be to stand before the pureness of God in those filthy rags. How shameful how regretful. What torment. I can see myself wailing and gnashing my teeth in that condition - without seeing God as cruel. These people will know they did this to themselves and they'll seek reconciliation. And He will purify all unrighteousness, through which will be an agonizing process of rehabilitation. Like the agony an obese out of shape person has to go through to become athletic.  And then He will wipe away every tear, that they all shall gratefully bow their knee and every tongue will joyfully confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the Glory of the Father. Just seems that put into perspectives like this, "hell" suddenly makes sense.
Yes, it's terrible. But it's not horrifically cruel. It's not purposely inflected incomprehensible torture that serves no purpose. It's more of a cause and effect factor. Not the place or situation I would want to find myself in, but yet still would be able to deal with my loved ones being in, knowing that they're not being purposely tortured, but being put through rehabilitation and purification, and they'll come out of it cleansed. Like Spiritual Boot Camp. Being put through the sausage grinder. That I have been subjected to here on earth, and most certainly came out the better for. I think of how much David suffered and anguish when confronted by Nathan. Or how much Esau lamented and agonized after realizing he had sold away his birthright over a bowl of soup. But they, after going through the school of hard knocks, ended up living happily ever after.

[Cardinal]

Cardinal shows it as being IN Christ and Christ shows it as MY WORDS abiding IN YOU (and Him as well) because apart from him we can do nothing.

:cloud9: Here is where I was going with that.

Acts  2:11
    Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God. The Spirit of Christ is as a garment, of praise, for one.

Isa 61:3 - To appoint unto them that mourn in Zion, to give unto them beauty for ashes, the oil of joy for mourning, the GARMENT OF PRAISE for the spirit of heaviness; that they might be called trees of RIGHTEOUSNESS, the planting of the LORD, that he might be glorified.

Ro 13:14 -But put ye ON the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfill the lusts thereof.

If you put on something, you're IN it.

Ga 3:27 - For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put ON Christ.

2Co 5:17 - Therefore if any man be IN Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

isa 64:6 - But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our RIGHTEOUSNESSESS are as filthy RAGS (as a garment); and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.

And now in my own words.......The priests had to wear linen (linen speaks of the RIGHTEOUSNESS of the saints) not mixed with wool. They ministered in the inner court, which speaks now of the priestly nation who have had the baptism IN His Spirit.

Wool speaks of the works of the flesh, which is exactly opposite of the Holy Ghost we received on our day of Pentecost, doing the works. The reason they were told by God not to wear wool, was because wool causes sweat and sweat is an offense to Him in His sanctuary.

Why? Because Adam's part of the curse was to get his BREAD by the SWEAT of his brow, ie. works. Jesus came to reverse the curse (s), this particular one was also reversed on the day of Pentecost as well, as we received the Holy Ghost which does the works.

So the inner court is the realm of the baptism in the Spirit, which is Christ. It's Jesus (outer court), Christ (inner court), Lord (Holy of Holies). So we "wear" or are IN CHRIST as a garment, a garment of "fine linen" because linen speaks of the righteousness of the saints, and because Christ IS the sanctuary now.

Now this particular revelation tying in sweat, linen, righteousness, works, and the Spirit of Christ, came with Him speaking to me, "Christ is the sanctuary now" in response to my plea to Him to give me something new that a pastor I was being sent to with a disciplinary word I was dreading giving, would not have heard anywhere (so that he would know I heard God in his situation also).

It triggered the flood of scriptures above to prove the word given to me from His mouth, as the Spirit comes to perform or illuminate the letter word, which is "dead" ie. not risen/resurrected, until He does. Blessings...

[Cardinal]

Wheres the words "workman approved" that Paul added anything to it in respect to it?

You mean theres more then just studying and rightly dividing the scriptures? I would agree with that

And thats another thing though keeping His words would mean "judge not lest you be judged" and so keeping His words would be walking in obedience to His commands.


But judging "others words" (as even Paul admonished us to do) when he said, "Judge ye what I SAY" (even others as 2 or 3 others speak the others judge, we are admonished to do that.

Signs and wonders arent always an indicator it appears in regards to signs and wonders, you think?

Duet 13:2 And **the sign or the wonder **come to pass**, whereof he spake unto thee, saying, Let us go after other gods, which thou hast not known, and let us serve them;

Duet 13;13 Thou shalt not hearken unto the words of that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams: for the LORD your God proveth you, to know whether ye love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul.

Heres another

2Thes 2:9 [Even him], whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders

It shows He proves us and our love for the truth, and even Him.

Following after anyone for signs and wonders might not be a good idea think? :grin:

They are mentioned again here...

Mark 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if [it were] possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

:cloud9: I was referring to this....

2Ti 2:15 - Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

Jesus was approved by miracles, signs and wonders. We are approved of God in the same way. If so be it, our shame has been replaced with His righteousness, and we have rightly divided the word of truth.

Ever wonder why it says "rightly divided"? Because the Spirit of God who is our teacher, is the only One who can walk between the pieces, raising/resurrecting/lifting up the "fragments" so we can see Him face to face, ie. beholding ourselves as in a mirror, and hopefully NOT walking away and forgetting what manner of man we are. Blessings....

[Cardinal]

[I sorta agree with this, it speaks of salt losing its savor and that savor elsewhere speaks of the knowledge of Christ.

Sorta reminds me of what becomes UNPROFITABLE in relation to "the savor" and that GIRDLE burried in the earth PROFITABLE for NOTHING  :grin: Cardinal mentions the earth  :grin:

On the topic of salt.....He gave me this.

He gives grace to the humble. This is why He can and will come as judgment, thru us, as we have allowed unconditional love of His to cleanse the motive of our hearts so that the judgments are righteous.

He quickened to me in another scripture once, ie. if my people who are called by My name will humble themselves and pray, that what He means by humbling is different from what we think (isn't it always?).

He said to humble ourselves is to empty ourselves of everything we think to take in everything He thinks. So as His thoughts are shared in a right motive, His Spirit as always, will go forth and perform the Word.

To the humble, it will be like a balm of milk and honey, soothing to the soul; to the "proud" flesh (oddly enough, a term in the natural that means "inflamed"), it will burn as fire and salt burns. Ever notice how the Word "burns" sometimes? It burns us as the "chaff" is being burnt.

This is why the Word is a two edged sword, why we are not to lose our salt. They that teach a false love devoid of judging any flesh, have lost their salt and therefore their ability to preserve and are good for nothing except to be trampled underfoot (like grapes, until the new wine of the Kingdom/Spirit comes forth). Blessings...

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: I gotcha. The problem is, if I explain, I'm REALLY long winded......

[sven]

it reminds me a bit at the jewish view on purgatory, i also think punishment consists of remorse and seeing the evil people had done

[MacPherson]

I like that naked analogy you made too when they disobeyed His words and listened to anothers, that was good

I got that one from 'ol doc Murray.
And suddenly Adam and Eve spring to mind, trying to cover their nakedness.

[MacPherson]

it reminds me a bit at the jewish view on purgatory, i also think punishment consists of remorse and seeing the evil people had done

I've never once heard from the pulpit that purgatory was a part of Judaism.
Everyone is told it was invented by the Catholics. At least in the US and UK.

[MacPherson]

it reminds me a bit at the jewish view on purgatory, i also think punishment consists of remorse and seeing the evil people had done

I've never once heard from the pulpit that purgatory was a part of Judaism.
Everyone is told it was invented by the Catholics. At least in the US and UK.

You know, I dont know if I would trust Judaism as a source have you ever read the talmud before?  :mshock:


This is from the Talmud supposedly but not the english version which toned down from what I hear

Gittin 57a "'Yashu' is in Hell being boiled in hot excrement."

Have you ever done a search on Judaism and the Talmud?

Im still looking into this but it allows sex with a small child and other nasty things it appears, could this be what Jesus was so angry about in relation to what God says over what they traditionally look to as a higher authority in many things?

I was referring to Judaism in the time of Christ. What Judaic beliefs where when Jesus was talking about "hell". The Talmud is a long ways from the Torah.

[MacPherson]

I like that naked analogy you made too when they disobeyed His words and listened to anothers, that was good

There's also "Behold, I come like a thief! Blessed is he who stays awake and keeps his clothes with him, so that he may not go naked and be shamefully exposed."
Revelation 16:15

Which really stood out reading Revelation last night, being the only red letter verse between ch. 4 to ch. 22

[MacPherson]

Heres anothe reference to hell in the Jewish Talmud....are there "versions" to this thing?  :grin:

Rosh Hashanah 17a  Christians ("minim") and others who reject the Talmud will go to hell and be punished there for all generations

Sanhedrin 59a: "A Goy (Gentile) who pries into the law (Talmud) is guilty of death."  :grin: (im doomed)

Libbre David 37: "To communicate anything with a Goy about our religious relations would be equal to the killing of all Jews, for if the Goyim knew what we teach about them, they would kill us openly.

Have you guys read this thing?

I have now. Thanks alot. Now I have to endure that "what if this is right?" syndrome.

[sven]

Have you ever done a search on Judaism and the Talmud?

maybe some Jews aren't the most honest people, all Jewish sites i read state that they believe in "hell" only for 12 months, Maimonides a Jewish philosopher called hell an invention of men. but yes, without doubt some Jews believed in hell and maybe still do, eg. the Book of Enoch

[rosered]

Rev 3:9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.

  thought of what we were talking about  Fire 

  This is very intersting to me and now after looking into it more   
I  found this there  a 3 types of Jews ?

  In Jesus day     and now ?
  this site is very informative !!! Sadducees = "the righteous"

1) a religious party at the time of Christ among the Jews, who denied that the oral law was a revelation of God to the Israelites, and who deemed the written law alone to be obligatory on the nation, as the divine authority. They denied the following doctrines:

a) resurrection of the body

b) immortality of the soul

c) existence of spirits and angels




http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/History/sadducees_pharisees_essenes.html
   what I find is how literal they are and how they   keep bound by the traditions of men ! 

   I hope this is on topic  :mblush:

[MacPherson]

MacPherson  :grin: I laughed when I saw your post, I didnt mean to give you doubts, I have such an eye opener reading the such differences between the Jews and I was never more pleasantly surprised to find a group that actually blessed me because most of them drove me crazy and Jesus speaking of stiff necks was all that come to mind  :grin:

I was just joking. There was a time not too long ago.... But I'm past that now.

[rosered]

LOL
  BRIAN  hee hee  now ya look just like Nates twin , with the  handle bar mustache    and eye glasses  hee hee , you went on ya '' paint'' program
  , how funny  i noticed  yer new look ! :icon_jokercolor:   good one bro  :thumbsup:

[Taffy]

Hi Brian ...
nice to see the real you Bud....


:icon_flower:

[Nathan]

Yeah, I saw the "modifications" as well . . . are they knocking down your door yet?  A problem I've had all my life a course. :angel5:

[Taffy]

Yeah, I saw the "modifications" as well . . . are they knocking down your door yet?  A problem I've had all my life a course. :angel5:

:laughing7: :laughing7: :laughing7: :laughing7: :laughing7:

  Babe Magnet, yeah I forgot :laughing7:

[Nathan]

Hey, I jus calls em likes I sees em. I caint hep that God made me so perty.

[Taffy]

Hey, I jus calls em likes I sees em. I caint hep that God made me so perty.

he ha

Just as wel ya Wife loves ya Bud :HeartThrob:
cos for sure, I would nt  wont ta Kiss ya.. :laughing7:

but they say LOVE IS "BLIND" :icon_flower:
OR those who think they LOVE are Blind to it