I've been studying the book of Matthew for the first time from a UR viewpoint and of course I'm hung up on the wheat and the tares. I've searched the threads discussing this on Tentmaker and I'm still having trouble reconciling this passage. I know that many people here believe that the wheat is the spiritual man and the tares are the carnal man, but I have a lingering question despite reading all of these explanations -- if these aren't individual people, why does Jesus personify them? Why not just let them stand for generic good and evil?
Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
Quoteif these aren't individual people, why does Jesus personify them? Why not just let them stand for generic good and evil?
Hi Kim ,
To me each name has a meaning , giving a nature
Lazurus means ''whom God helps '' John means God is a gracious giver , Paul means small or little , to me Paul was the least that =shall become the greatest in the Kingdom start to finnish .. Jesus said John the baptist was least and those whom eter are greater than he , because to me John the Baptist represented the end of the Law of moses and the begining of Truth and Grace By Jesus Christ , the Kingdom come by violence till Christ come and was rebvealed though He was here from the Begining ..
all of us have good and evil in us , every last one born naturally and born spiritually as well
Hope this helps you some how sis
love ..rose
Hi
to me the parable of wheat and tares is a strong argument pro universalism. But I've read many, like in the post below, who have difficult with this parable. Indeed I've never seen it used in universalist writings. I'm struck by this and I wonder if I'm making it too easy, so I'd like to know your opinion about my view.
The usual reading tells the grain (God' sons) are the good men and the tares (the devil's sons) are the evil men, but to me this doesn't hold water at all. Evil men are by no means sons of the devil, they're as sons of God as the good men and Jesus further says the tares where sown by the devil after God had sown the wheat.
I see only two possibile interpretations:
A) the sons of God are the good deeds and the sons of devil are the evil deeds
or
B) the sons of God are the men and the sons of devil are the sins that entangle men
in either case the sins/evil deeds get burned away, in case A this says nothing either for or against universalism, in case B this is another very strong argument for universalism: the tares get burned with crying and gnashing of teeth but all the men, even those more entangled with tares, get saved. To me this stand up to par with the parable of the good shepard.
What's your opinion about this? Am I wrong?
Renzo
Hi Renzo..
you did a good job explaining :thumbsup:
the Good seed is CHRIST / WORD OF GOD sowed in our hearts
the darnel /weeds look similar till mature
1) a kind of darnel, resembling wheat except the grains are black
wheat is useful and the darnel is useless
On a spiritual level this does signify that at the end of my life, God will burn those things that are tares and keep the wheat, but when reading the text I think it is important to put it into perspective as to the times Jesus was addressing. The Romans were occupying the land and allowing the Jewish people to inhabit their land, but it was a volitile situation. He gave the warning that when you see the armies surround the city, flee. Those who were close to Him and His teachings knew that when they saw the Roman army surround the city to flee. This actually happened. Titus surrounded the city ready to take it down, but then they were called away to deal with another emergency. At this time the Christians fled the city. Soon the army returned and destroyed the temple, marking the end of the age. The tares were those who did not follow Christ, but remained faithful to the sacrificial system, they were literally burned in the fire. The wheat were the Christians who escaped the judgement.
Mat 13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.
Mat 13:39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world (age); and the reapers are the angels.
1Jn 3:3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.
1Jn 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
1Jn 3:5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
1Jn 3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
1Jn 3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous
1Jn 5:18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.
Rom 8:6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
1Jn 5:4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.
I think that burning the tares is a burning of "non believers", the house come crashing down, left desolate with a perpetual shame. A fire to bring down one's pride.
Rev 3:17 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:
Faith can be tried by fire
1Pe 1:7 That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold thatperisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honor and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:
But faith is not a sin that needs to be purged, gathered up/bundled up to burn.
Quote from: Zeek on December 02, 2008, 03:24:05 PM
I think that burning the tares is a burning of "non believers", the house come crashing down, left desolate with a perpetual shame. A fire to bring down one's pride.
Rev 3:17 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:
Faith can be tried by fire
1Pe 1:7 That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold thatperisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honor and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:
But faith is not a sin that needs to be purged, gathered up/bundled up to burn.
All men have tares that must be burned, even the faithful, some have less tares, some have more, some even an awful lot, so the more he has and the more he'll suffer in burning the tares. Paul says at 1 Corinthians 3:15: "If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as through fire." This quote is perfectly consistent with the parable of wheat and tares.
Renzo
Quote from: barbierir on December 02, 2008, 03:54:13 PM
Quote from: Zeek on December 02, 2008, 03:24:05 PM
I think that burning the tares is a burning of "non believers", the house come crashing down, left desolate with a perpetual shame. A fire to bring down one's pride.
Rev 3:17 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:
Faith can be tried by fire
1Pe 1:7 That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold thatperisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honor and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:
But faith is not a sin that needs to be purged, gathered up/bundled up to burn.
All men have tares that must be burned, even the faithful, some have less tares, some have more, some even an awful lot, so the more he has and the more he'll suffer in burning the tares. Paul says at 1 Corinthians 3:15: "If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as through fire." This quote is perfectly consistent with the parable of wheat and tares.
Renzo
Rom 8:9 But ye
are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be
that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
No mixing of law and grace.
you can't put old wine in new wine skins.
Wages of sin is death.
He who believes in me, will never die.
believest thou this??
We are a NEW CREATION
2Co 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
1Jn 5:4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.
Jesus himself explained the wheat and the tares.
36Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field.
37He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;
38The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;
39The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.
40As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
41The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
42And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
43Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.
--Mat 13
Rom 14:17 For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.
Php 4:7 And the peace of God, which passeth all understanding, shall keep your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus.
understanding:
G3563
νοῦς
nous
nooce
Probably from the base of G1097; the intellect, that is, mind (divine or human; in thought, feeling, or will); by implication meaning: - mind, understanding. Compare G5590.
1Co 2:16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.
passeth all understanding.
Heb 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
Hi everyone :icon_flower:
you all have done a great job , explaining and going into details
another saying of Jesus that also goes with the reapers''to cut down '' /are the angels ''messengers '' /men of God
Mat 13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.
Jhn 15:6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast [them] into the fire, and they are burned.
the Faith part you brought in Zeek is a very good comparison :HeartThrob: :thumbsup:
I'm coming from a Calvinist background and I feel like I'm tripping over it every time I read this verse. These are the thoughts I have so far . . .
-The wheat and the tares are entangled. If they're not obviously separate, that helps the case that it has to do with the good and evil that dwell within each of us.
-What is the end of the age? Many say that an age ended/began when Jesus was crucified. Is *this* when the tares were burned, or is Jesus talking about the end of a different age?
-Let's say the tares are unbelievers. Does being thrown into the furnace = hell or annihilation? Or is another force at work there?
Thanks for all your helpful commentary. I'm still trying to figure this one out.
Kimberlaina :icon_flower:
In Galatians, Paul talks of Abraham's two sons.
I think they relate to the tares and wheat.
u might find this article helpful
http://www.presence.tv/cms/twosons.php
Quote from: rosered on December 02, 2008, 10:59:30 PM
the Faith part you brought in Zeek is a very good comparison :HeartThrob: :thumbsup:
Mat 9:22 But Jesus turned him about, and when he saw her, he said, Daughter, be of good comfort;
thy faith hath made thee whole. And the woman was made whole from that hour.
Psa 11:5 The LORD trieth the righteous: but the wicked and him that loveth violence his soul hateth.
Psa 11:6 Upon the wicked he shall rain snares, fire and brimstone, and a horrible tempest: this shall be the portion of their cup.
Psa 11:7 For the righteous LORD loveth righteousness; his countenance doth behold the upright.
Mat 17:20 And Jesus said unto them, Because of your unbelief: for verily I say unto you, If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you.
Heb 12:18 For ye are not come unto the mount that might be touched, and that burned with fire, nor unto blackness, and darkness, and tempest,
Heb 12:22 But ye are come unto mount Zion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
Psa 1:6 For the LORD knoweth the way of the righteous: but the way of the ungodly shall perish.
Psa 5:8 Lead me, O LORD, in thy righteousness because of mine enemies; make thy way straight before my face.
Psa 5:9 For there is no faithfulness in their mouth; their inward part is very wickedness; their throat is an open sepulcher; they flatter with their tongue.
Psa 5:10 Destroy thou them, O God; let them fall by their own counsels; cast them out in the multitude of their transgressions; for they have rebelled against thee.
Psa 5:11 But let all those that put their trust in thee rejoice: let them ever shout for joy, because thou defendest them: let them also that love thy name be joyful in thee.
Psa 5:12 For thou, LORD, wilt bless the righteous; with favor wilt thou compass him as with a shield.
Gal 4:22 For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.
Gal 4:23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.
Gal 4:24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which engendereth to bondage, which is Hagar.
Gal 4:25 For this Hagar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.
Gal 4:26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.
Gal 4:27 For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not; for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath a husband.
Gal 4:28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.
Gal 4:29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.
Gal 4:30 Nevertheless what saith the Scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.
Gal 4:31 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.
two covenants
those who held onto the old=tares, children of the bondwoman, Ishmaels; who persecuted the first century church, whose pride in the law system had to be crushed.
the new: those given faith, eyes to see, who turned away from the old system. FAITH. rewarded.
One to be burned, one to be rewarded. In the end, the consumation of an age (the old covenant age).
In with the NEW, the new covenant age.
Some saved from the fire, many were not saved.
But with the changing of the covenants, All reconciled through the NEW
Quote from: Zeek on December 03, 2008, 08:07:18 AM
Gal 4:22 For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.
Gal 4:23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.
Gal 4:24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which engendereth to bondage, which is Hagar.
Gal 4:25 For this Hagar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.
Gal 4:26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.
Gal 4:27 For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not; for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath a husband.
Gal 4:28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.
Gal 4:29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.
Gal 4:30 Nevertheless what saith the Scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.
Gal 4:31 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.
two covenants
those who held onto the old=tares, children of the bondwoman, Ishmaels; who persecuted the first century church, whose pride in the law system had to be crushed.
the new: those given faith, eyes to see, who turned away from the old system. FAITH. rewarded.
One to be burned, one to be rewarded. In the end, the consumation of an age (the old covenant age).
In with the NEW, the new covenant age.
Some saved from the fire, many were not saved.
But with the changing of the covenants, All reconciled through the NEW
:thumbsup:
Old Man , New Man , Night , Day ,Slave, Heir, babe\Child , Son etc
QuoteGal 4:31 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.
That must have been a sour note on the ears of tyrants in Paul's day. Any wonder why they were burning them at the stake? Any wonder why this concept is still surpressed in churches today? Any wonder why even today the powers that be are terribly threatened by Christianity?
It all comes down to one radical word--
freedom.Isaiah 61:1
The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound;
I'm still feeling confused about this. I'm just . . . stuck. I don't know. It's bothering me. :sigh:
The tares are personified. It's hard to get around feeling like they're actual people.
So . . . the fire in this passage must not be something that wholly destroys people, it's a passage that proves annihilationism, or I'm all wet in thinking that the tares are some sort of people and it's a commentary on good vs. evil. Or maybe it's a passage that talks about destruction awaiting those who fail to convert to the New Covenant. Can anyone here make a coherent argument for any of these?
Thanks again.
Quote from: Kimberlaina on December 06, 2008, 11:54:45 PM
I'm still feeling confused about this. I'm just . . . stuck. I don't know. It's bothering me. :sigh:
The tares are personified. It's hard to get around feeling like they're actual people.
So . . . the fire in this passage must not be something that wholly destroys people, it's a passage that proves annihilationism, or I'm all wet in thinking that the tares are some sort of people and it's a commentary on good vs. evil. Or maybe it's a passage that talks about destruction awaiting those who fail to convert to the New Covenant. Can anyone here make a coherent argument for any of these?
Thanks again.
Think Two fold, the Pharisees personify the FLESH( soul) of all men , so yes ,they are TYPE of Folk, But it also speaks of the flesh of all men,...means BOTH, the destruction of the Flesh so CHRIST can be revealed.
Quote from: Taffy on December 07, 2008, 12:04:15 AM
Think Two fold, the Pharisees personify the FLESH( soul) of all men , so yes ,they are TYPE of Folk, But it also speaks of the flesh of all men,...means BOTH, the destruction of the Flesh so CHRIST can be revealed.
Ok, Taffy, so are you saying that both the Pharisees and the tares are symbols or metaphors for "fleshly man" who will be destroyed, but that this isn't describing the destruction of individuals in their entirety? (I'm having a hard time articulating this.) In order to discuss flesh vs. spirit, Jesus had to show his disciples and later readers of Scripture what fleshly men look like so that we'd understand the distinction. The parable of the wheat and the tares emphasizes that we can tell the difference between flesh and spirit. However, how can we be certain that this passage doesn't specifically describe the annihilation (or worse) of "fleshly" men, personified by the tares and the Pharisees? Individual plant organisms get annihilated, so how can we conclude that this doesn't happen to people? :JCThink:
Thanks again~ :HeartThrob:
Oh, btw, I should warn those conversing with me that I tend to be convinced of things very slowly. So I hope you don't think I'm :bdh: -- please be patient with me!
Quote from: Kimberlaina on December 07, 2008, 12:58:07 AM
Quote from: Taffy on December 07, 2008, 12:04:15 AM
Think Two fold, the Pharisees personify the FLESH( soul) of all men , so yes ,they are TYPE of Folk, But it also speaks of the flesh of all men,...means BOTH, the destruction of the Flesh so CHRIST can be revealed.
Ok, Taffy, so are you saying that both the Pharisees and the tares are symbols or metaphors for "fleshly man" who will be destroyed, but that this isn't describing the destruction of individuals in their entirety? (I'm having a hard time articulating this.) In order to discuss flesh vs. spirit, Jesus had to show his disciples and later readers of Scripture what fleshly men look like so that we'd understand the distinction. The parable of the wheat and the tares emphasizes that we can tell the difference between flesh and spirit. However, how can we be certain that this passage doesn't specifically describe the annihilation (or worse) of "fleshly" men, personified by the tares and the Pharisees? Individual plant organisms get annihilated, so how can we conclude that this doesn't happen to people? :JCThink:
Thanks again~ :HeartThrob:
Oh, btw, I should warn those conversing with me that I tend to be convinced of things very slowly. So I hope you don't think I'm :bdh: -- please be patient with me!
Hi Kim
No worries in being slowly convinced... gee I got a Major in it.... :icon_flower:
so, what do you SEE as Flesh? then , what do you SEE as SPIRIT?
shall we move from there? :icon_flower:
Quote from: Kimberlaina on December 02, 2008, 02:15:56 AM
I've been studying the book of Matthew for the first time from a UR viewpoint and of course I'm hung up on the wheat and the tares. I've searched the threads discussing this on Tentmaker and I'm still having trouble reconciling this passage. I know that many people here believe that the wheat is the spiritual man and the tares are the carnal man, but I have a lingering question despite reading all of these explanations -- if these aren't individual people, why does Jesus personify them? Why not just let them stand for generic good and evil?
Hi Kim, like Taffy is see this in an inward application, the wheat and the tares are produced from the seed from he who planted them, thus the tares are the seeds/thoughts/children/ of the devil and the wheat the seeds/thoughts/children of God, and God will seperate the seeds/thoughts/children of the devil from His seed/thoughts/children.
That said even if we take it as applying to man and it can be taken that way also and some men go into the fire, just remember the fire is used to correct man and to remove all the chaff that man who is in the fire can enter within the gates of the city.
The only reason imo people have a problem with this scripture is that they still look at the fire from an ET perspective and not from it corrective perspective. Once it get settled in thier own mind that Gods judgments are ALL CORRECTIVE judgment the broblem that God is going to cast people into the lake of fire disappears.
QuoteIndividual plant organisms get annihilated, so how can we conclude that this doesn't happen to people?
Plants don't have an eternal soul or spirit. I have seen some on here saying that the soul is also destroyed at death, but I don't see any concrete proof of that. Our eternal souls are what make up our individuality. If that is destroyed then we cease to exist and there would be no point to being here in the first place.
2Co 10:5 Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;
Mat 3:10 And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
Gal 4:30 Nevertheless what saith the Scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.
1Co 13:8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.
Heb 8:13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.
soul death ?
Mar 14:34 And says unto them , My soul 5590 is exceeding sorrowful unto death 2288:
tarry ye/you wait here , and watch .
Jam 5:20 Let him know that he which converts 1994 the sinner 268 from the error 4106 of his way shall save 4982 a soul 5590psychē
from death 2288thanatos
, and shall hide a multitude 4128 of sins 266. hamartia
there is alot of soul death in the old testament and there is soul salvation Peter explains it in the new
David saw corruption /decay
to me soul death is seperation from God making outer darkness / no knowledge wisdom ,understanding strength the key point to what it is /means
we cannot excuse it because it is spoken of in the scriptures as soul death /salvation -saving from what ?
that is why the Cross of Jesus Christ is very powerful and signifigant EVENT to me anyways
Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.
Mat 27:51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;
Mat 27:52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
Mat 27:53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.
the dead of many souls did rise up out of the body of death /tomb
Were they dead to God before Christ did this thing ?
Quote from: rosered on December 08, 2008, 04:00:02 PM
soul death ?
Mar 14:34 And says unto them , My soul 5590 is exceeding sorrowful unto death 2288:
tarry ye/you wait here , and watch .
Jam 5:20 Let him know that he which converts 1994 the sinner 268 from the error 4106 of his way shall save 4982 a soul 5590psychē
from death 2288thanatos
, and shall hide a multitude 4128 of sins 266. hamartia
there is alot of soul death in the old testament and there is soul salvation Peter explains it in the new
David saw corruption /decay
to me soul death is seperation from God making outer darkness / no knowledge wisdom ,understanding strength the key point to what it is /means
we cannot excuse it because it is spoken of in the scriptures as soul death /salvation -saving from what ?
that is why the Cross of Jesus Christ is very powerful and signifigant EVENT to me anyways
Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.
Mat 27:51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;
Mat 27:52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
Mat 27:53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.
the dead of many souls did rise up out of the body of death /tomb
Were they dead to God before Christ did this thing ?
All souls OF MEN are dead men waliking and talking from the Grave , for the DEAD "KNOW NOTHING", death is Known as SLEEP, in the DARKNESS of NIGHT man sleeps, AWAKE from DARKNESS and SLEEP NO MORE
Psa 121:4 Behold, he that
keepeth Israel shall neither
slumber nor sleep. Pro 6:9 How long wilt thou sleep, O sluggard? when wilt thou arise out of thy sleep?
Pro 20:13 Love not sleep, lest thou come to poverty; open thine eyes, [and] thou shalt be satisfied with bread.
Rom 13:11 And that, knowing the time, that now [it is] high time to awake out of sleep: for now [is] our salvation nearer than when we believed
1Cr 11:27 Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink [this] cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord.
1Cr 11:28 But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of [that] bread, and drink of [that] cup.
1Cr 11:29 For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body.
1Cr 11:30 For this cause many [are] weak and sickly among you, and many sleep.
1Cr 11:31 For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged
Quote from: Taffy on December 08, 2008, 08:34:38 PM
Quote from: rosered on December 08, 2008, 04:00:02 PM
soul death ?
Mar 14:34 And says unto them , My soul 5590 is exceeding sorrowful unto death 2288:
tarry ye/you wait here , and watch .
Jam 5:20 Let him know that he which converts 1994 the sinner 268 from the error 4106 of his way shall save 4982 a soul 5590psychē
from death 2288thanatos
, and shall hide a multitude 4128 of sins 266. hamartia
there is alot of soul death in the old testament and there is soul salvation Peter explains it in the new
David saw corruption /decay
to me soul death is seperation from God making outer darkness / no knowledge wisdom ,understanding strength the key point to what it is /means
we cannot excuse it because it is spoken of in the scriptures as soul death /salvation -saving from what ?
that is why the Cross of Jesus Christ is very powerful and signifigant EVENT to me anyways
Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.
Mat 27:51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;
Mat 27:52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
Mat 27:53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.
the dead of many souls did rise up out of the body of death /tomb
Were they dead to God before Christ did this thing ?
All souls OF MEN are dead men waliking and talking from the Grave , for the DEAD "KNOW NOTHING", death is Known as SLEEP, in the DARKNESS of NIGHT man sleeps, AWAKE from DARKNESS and SLEEP NO MORE
Psa 121:4 Behold, he that keepeth Israel shall neither slumber nor sleep.
Pro 6:9 How long wilt thou sleep, O sluggard? when wilt thou arise out of thy sleep?
Pro 20:13 Love not sleep, lest thou come to poverty; open thine eyes, [and] thou shalt be satisfied with bread.
Rom 13:11 And that, knowing the time, that now [it is] high time to awake out of sleep: for now [is] our salvation nearer than when we believed
1Cr 11:27 Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink [this] cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord.
1Cr 11:28 But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of [that] bread, and drink of [that] cup.
1Cr 11:29 For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body.
1Cr 11:30 For this cause many [are] weak and sickly among you, and many sleep.
1Cr 11:31 For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged
:thumbsup: you are on a roll bro !
why Christ come to us........ :icon_flower:
Eze 18:4
Behold, all souls are mine;
as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine:
the soul that sins, it shall die.
So what are the implications of that, if you believe that the soul can die? Are you saying that this death or seperation is permanent and therefore disproves that "All" will eventually be reconciled to God? Or do you see this as a temporary death?
Quote from: alihaymeg on December 09, 2008, 06:35:36 AM
So what are the implications of that, if you believe that the soul can die? Are you saying that this death or seperation is permanent and therefore disproves that "All" will eventually be reconciled to God? Or do you see this as a temporary death?
Hi alihaymeg ,
I am not saying it is permanent
the Lord restores our souls , the mind or soul is the seat of emotion appetite
etc ,
those who hunger and thirst after righteousness shall be filled
this defining of the bible usage helped me to understand a distinction of what the soul and spirit are
they are not so far apart , we have an animal soul [carnal] and spiritual soul that belongs to Christ I see the soul of the beast being slain [ Paul speaks of this here ] Daniel first and Paul also speaks of this Dan 7:11 I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld [even] till the
beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame. 1Cr 13:3 And though I bestow all my goods to feed [the poor], and though
I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profits me nothing.
but is see the soul as how we are different in places of our lives
faith and trust in Jesus makes us more rested/ settled in our walk in the Spirit because we are not so fearful and tossed around doubting our salvation to me
I do not think our souls are first to be fixed by the Lord
but last see how Peter shows this plainly ? in his speech here ?1Pe 1:9 Receiving the
end of your faith, [even] the salvation of [your] souls. ,
to me Peter was confident till the trials come upon him and his soul was tossed about and sifted like wheat by satan , but the Lord prayed his faith would not fail him [peter] 1Pe 2:25 For you were as sheep going astray; but are now returned unto the Shepherd and
Bishop of your souls. Jesus said when you are turned around/converted Peter feed my lambs / sheep
through his experiences he could relate and help others whom were going through the same things , having this in common
here i see an anchor as a settled/rested and no longer blown about
by the expression in the way it is written here
Hbr 6:19 Which [hope] we have
as an anchor of the soul,
both sure and stedfast, and which entereth into that within the veil; Whither the forerunner is for us entered, [even]
Jesus, made an high priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.
Strong's G5590 - psychē ψυχή
psychē
Part of Speech
feminine noun
Root Word (Etymology)
from G5594
Outline of Biblical Usage 1) breath
a)
the breath of life1) the vital force which animates the body and shows itself in breathing
a)
of animalsb)
of menb) life
c) that in which there is life
1) a living being, a living soul
2) the soul
a)
the seat of the feelings, desires, affections, aversions (our heart, soul etc.)b) the (human) soul in so far as it is constituted that by the right use of the aids offered it by God it can attain its highest end and secure eternal blessedness, the soul regarded as a moral being designed for everlasting life
c) the soul as an essence which differs from the body
and is not dissolved by death (distinguished from other parts of the body) hope this helps a little
I cannot explain things very well but keep on trying anyways
God bless you in searching for His Truth ..
Al..
Too add w we bit to Roses Post.
The soul of Man PERISHES, The enmity which was,Our SOULS renewed as Is the Promise of the New C.
As Rose points out , the seat of Our emoTions, Taste....
Christ Tasted Death FOR ALL MEN.
Hbr 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.
those who believe On HIM shall Not TASTE death as their souls have been restored.
Jhn 8:52 Then said the Jews unto him, Now we know that thou hast a devil. Abraham is dead, and the prophets; and thou sayest, If a man keep my saying, he shall never taste of death.
Did Christ Promise This.
Mat 5:6 Blessed [are] they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled.
Exd 16:31 And the house of Israel called the name thereof Manna: and it [was] like coriander seed, white; and the taste of it [was] like wafers [made] with honey.
Hab 2:14 For the earth shall be filled with the knowledge of the glory of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea.
Christ Tasted Death for everyman, so we could Taste the Fruit of the Tree of LIFE.
Brings again greater understanding to this scripture, to we NOT TASTE with the TONGUE?
Pro 18:21 Death and life [are] in the power of the tongue: and they that love it shall eat the fruit thereof.
:icon_flower:
Having studied psychology, it is often hard for me to shake my ingrained notions about what the division between spirit soul and body. I always thought that Freud's Id, Ego, and Super-ego were a parallel description of that division; the soul (or ego) being caught between the influences of the body (Id) and spirit (Super-ego).
My understanding is that all evil lies in the realm of the flesh just like that little devil that sits on your shoulder influencing you to do the wrong thing.
The spirit I always equated with the life force of God made alive by the influence of the Holy Spirit. I guess that would be the angel on the other shoulder.
I understood our soul to be the part of us that is unique and gives us our individuality. We then choose what voice to listen to and that is where our character comes from.
Does this make any sense to anyone?
With that in mind, I can see how the soul could be made to sleep but I don't see how it could be destroyed without annihilating the essence of who we are.
Any thoughts?
Quote from: Taffy on December 07, 2008, 01:47:00 AM
so, what do you SEE as Flesh? then , what do you SEE as SPIRIT?
shall we move from there? :icon_flower:
I took a while to think about this. Don't worry, I didn't forget the thread!
I don't promise any sort of biblical correctness here. I grew up reading the Bible but I'm a confessed "Biblephobe" -- I always found reading it very scary :mshock: and avoided it for years. I'm just now trying to get myself over that fear and increase my knowledge of Scripture.
I always thought of the flesh as being the "animal" part of us. Flesh is comfort-seeking -- it always wants to feel good and be comfortable, no matter what the cost. There is no empathy for other human beings in flesh because it is all about survival; competition is the name of the game. It is the part that wants violent revenge for all wrongs and always seeks to get its own way.
Spirit is the essence of who we are. I guess I kindof see it as what God intended us to be (to steal some words from Dostoevsky), a part of us that is veiled by the evil deeds of the flesh. Spirit is our "full potential," the part of us that is the Image of God.
I feel like this is making more sense to me. I feel like Matthew 13 is actually applicable on many levels, too. For example, on this earth, sometimes evil deeds cause good things to happen and vice versa. I think that speaks to the "wheat" and the "tares" being so entangled that you can't harvest one without the other in this world. We as human beings are the same way. No good deed is without a little hint of evil, and no evil deed is without a little hint of good. :happy3:
Please allow me to interrupt.
[Joh 3:6]
That which is born of the flesh is flesh;
and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
'Fresh' has several meanings in the Bible.
However, here it means 'a man who is born naturally.'
'Spirit' means 'a man who is born again with Jesus life.'
(Please do not confuse with Spirit-Soul-Body, which describes
3 parts of our being)
All mankind come into this world as 'flesh', the sinners.
When a man meets true Jesus in his life,
Jesus will make him born again as 'spirit', the righteous.
Each of us is 'flesh' when born, and when we meet true Jesus,
we will be born again as 'spirit' within this lifetime.
Jesus and the whole Scriptures talks about this born again
from 'flesh' to 'spirit'
In the parable of Matthew 13,
the tare is 'flesh', which is individual people,
i.e. each of us, and is fruitless.
and wheat is 'spirit,' which bears fruit.
The tare has the possibility to be born again as wheat.
That's the reason why Jesus said to disciples to wait.
However, tare should go through the fire (God's word in Jesus)
to have all of its non-divine elements be destroyed.
Then tare will be born again as wheat.
Flesh becomes Spirit.
I guess people here consider 'the time of harvest' or 'the last day',
or 'the great and awesome day of the LORD'
as the judgment day afterlife.
It is not so.
It refers to the last day of 'flesh' of each of us, the old man (Rom 6:6)
After this last day of 'flesh', we will be born again as 'spirit', a new man.
Therefore, the last day is glorious, great and notable day.
I see UR belivers spend hard time to explain there would be no ET.
If they really concern about ET then they should solve the issue now here,
rather than waiting for seeing it with fear throughout the life.
How can we solve ET issue here?
Very simple.
Be 'spirit', be 'wheat'.
Then we are out of ET
regardless of its existence or non-existence afterlife.
If we realize this, we will not spend time arguing over ET,
but spend time for ourselves to be born again as spirit first.
God bless.
Looking at your posts, 70...enjoying them, brother. Excellent points :thumbsup:... God's blessing, James.
Hi 70s :icon_flower:
weve talked before , other forums too., Also, Hi Kim, thanks fo rgetting back and sharing some, for mine,70s pretty much summed it up in what I was going to reply. :icon_flower:
Indeed, The flesh is our Heart and Mind, the seat of our emotions,the enmity,TO be CANAL(FLESH) MINDED IS death, NOT our natural Body, which can confuse when reading scrips when paul states "you are spirit NOT Flesh."
This is the Tares ( balck but look like wheat) which are Burnt Up and Destroyed ,been saying this for ages, Christ Often Uses the Pharisees of the Day to Emphasize His POINT,...so it can be seen TWO fold, as a Type of Folk, those under LAW, which is equal also to the Flesh.
These are all the Same, the same meassage ALL through scripture, repititon is a Great way To learn, and us parents never thought it "first" he ha.
Flesh v Spirit
Law v Grace and Truth
Bondage v Freedom
Old C v New C
Esau v Jacob
Cain v Abel\Seth( appointed )
Child\slave \babe v Son or Heir
Old Jerusalem v New Jerusalem
Woman V Mother( ever Notice Christ never calls His Natural Mother, But Woman
Form v Reality
False Gold v GOLD which has been Tried by fire=Truth
Goliath v David
Corruptable v incorruption
Wisdom Beneath v Wisdom above.
5 Virgins no oil v 5 virgin with oil.
The sea below V the sea above ,known as the Heavens.
Josephs Folk v Joseph.
Old israel v New Israel.
Circumcision v circumcison of the Haert,
Old Man V New Man
Darkness v light
Night v Day
Crooked v Straight
Blind v Sight
Lame v Walk
Tof G&E V Tof L
etc
and the list goes On..
:icon_flower:
Quote from: TaffyIndeed, The flesh is our Heart and Mind, the seat of our emotions,the enmity,TO be CANAL(FLESH) MINDED IS death, NOT our natural Body, which can confuse when reading scrips when paul states "you are spirit NOT Flesh."
This is the Tares ( balck but look like wheat) which are Burnt Up and Destroyed ,been saying this for ages, Christ Often Uses the Pharisees of the Day to Emphasize His POINT,...so it can be seen TWO fold, as a Type of Folk, those under LAW, which is equal also to the Flesh.
"The flesh is our heart and mind"
This confuses me.
37Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. --Mat 22
"heart"G2588
καρδία
kardiakar-dee'-ah
Prolonged from a primary κάρ kar (Latin cor, "heart"); the heart, that is, (figuratively)
the thoughts or feelings (mind); also (by analogy) the middle: - (+ broken-) heart (-ed).
"mind"G1271
διάνοια
dianoiadee-an'-oy-ah
From G1223 and G3563;
deep thought, properly the faculty (mind or its disposition), by implication its exercise: - imagination, mind,
understanding."soul"G5590
ψυχή
psuchēpsoo-khay'
From G5594; breath, that is, (by implication)
spirit, abstractly or concretely
(the animal sentient principle only; thus distinguished on the one hand from G4151, which is the rational and immortal soul; and on the other from G2222, which is mere vitality, even of plants: these terms thus exactly correspond respectively to the Hebrew [H5315], [H7307] and [H2416]: -
heart(+ -ily),
life, mind, soul, + us, + you.
So is Jesus talking about our 'tare" parts here? But a tare only looks like wheat, it can never be wheat. A tare is a different plant altogether. Then why would he bother to instruct the tare to love God? Such would be impossible. The tare is destined for destruction, whereas the heart and mind are our highest faculties as humans. So do we have a fourth component called the 'carnal mind'?
Romans 8:7
Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.This is not exactly talking about the mind--more an intent--a purpose--related to flesh--
"carnal mind"
"sarx phronema"
"carnal"G4561
σάρξ
sarxsarx
Probably from the base of G4563;
flesh (as stripped of the skin), that is, (strictly) the meat of an animal (as food), or (by extension)
the body (as opposed to the soul (or spirit), or as the symbol of what is external, or as the means of kindred, or (by implication)
human nature (with its frailties (physically or morally) and passions), or (specifically) a human being (as such): - carnal (-ly, + -ly minded), flesh ([-ly]).
"mind"G5427
φρόνημα
phronēmafron'-ay-mah
From G5426;
(mental) inclination or purpose: - (be, + be carnally, + be spiritually) mind (-ed).
In other words, it is not the mind itself that is the problem, but the intent of the mind, its purpose, its focus.
The same is true of the heart.
Matthew 6:21
For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.Now if one has evil in his heart continually and is plotting death and destruction to millions of people, or even just his wife or boss--we have a problem. This is not being under the law--this is just plain evil.
So what is the tare, what is the wheat--in that? God totally wiped out people like that in the flood. The mind and heart of these people was corrupt beyond redemption by their purpose, thought, and intent.
5And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.
6And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart. --Gen 6
Quote37Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
Hi Molly
Thought to take your post piece by piece.
I see the scripture above all bearing witness to each other..HEART , MIND , SOUL BEING ONE.
But the Soul( heart and Mind of Man) first has to perish.....as we are told
Jhn 6:53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood,
ye have no life in you. so ,I see Two Souls , The Breath which is\was breathed into Mortal Man ,That is the Adam which is Formed from the Ground and Became a Living Soul ., first the Natural Man , then the spirtual Man which is then RENEWED by the TRUE breath of Life.
The first, which is Carnal,Dies, when Born anew in the New Covenant, I see scripture reffering to this as
RENEWING the face of the Earth.and for me this ,is where I see it., for we are Told we are Being
Created in God Image
Psalm 104:30Thou sendest forth thy SPIRIT,
THEY are CREATED: and thou
RENEWEST the face of the earth.
If we go Back the Garden, we see The first Adam
Created both Male and Female, This Is our True estate. The resurrected Christ In us, for In the KingdoM there is No male or female..we are ONE.
Gen 1:26-28 And God said, Let us make MAN in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. 27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he HIM [He called THEIR name ADAM]; male and female created he THEM. 28 And God blessed THEM, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and SUBDUE it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.
then we see ADAM again ( which is symbolic of Christ The MAN, who lays His life Down for the Church, He was Not decieved) ) and Then Eve (woman symbolic of the Church).
but back to The END of the seventh Day, we read THIS
Gen 2:6 But there went up a
mist from the earth, and
watered the whole face of the ground. Its almost written Backwards, where our minds tend look forward.
Christ Declaring The End before the Beginning :HeartThrob:
I see this verse again
Jhn 20:22 And when he had said this,
he breathed on [them], and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost
When NEW life WAS given, a renewing of our SOULS, Christ WRITTEN in OUR HEARTS and MINDS, The promise of the New Covenant.
So the Soul ,HIS breath, Is Spirit and Zoe Life...HIS Spirit ,Testifying NOW with Ours ,Making US ONE.
This Is why Paul states, The flesh( the soul of MAN)is enmity, and To be CARNAL minded is DEATH, although ADAM was formed from the Earth and Made a Living soul, the SOUL that Sinneth will die , he was a DEAD man walking.
I feel this is why there so much confusion...Quite simply, the soul which is the Flesh has to DIE , then the TRUE breath of Life is Given.
1Cr 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam [was made] a quickening spirit.
Carnal soul DIES
Act 3:23 And it shall come to pass, [that]
every soul, which will not
hear that prophet, shall be
destroyed from among the people. Spiritual soul lives
Act 4:32 And the multitude of them that believed were of
one heart and of one soul: neither said any [of them] that ought of the things which he possessed was his own; but they had all things common.
Hbr 10:38 Now the
just shall live by faith: but if [any man]
draw back,
my soul shall have no pleasure in him. What divides the HEART MIND=Soul Of Man From The Hidden man Within
Hbr 4:12 For the word of God( Christ in us)d powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and [is] a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
Pnuema may be about later to give a More technical explaination :icon_jokercolor:
t
QuotePnuema may be about later to give a More technical explaination
:laughing7: you explained it just fine bro, but I will give more on the BREATH OF LIFE.
Breath of life
Genesis 2:7
7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
Many believe that this is speaking of how natural man was created.
They believe that God took dust from the ground, breathed His spirit into the dust and that this union of dust and spirit is the make up of man who is then called a living soul.
But is that what God said?
Let's look closely at this scripture.
And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground.
It says plainly here that God formed MAN of the dust of the ground before He breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and before MAN became a living soul.
Now we know that man is made up of spirit, soul and body. 1 Thessalonians 5:23
23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
This man of dust already had a spirit, soul and body, for is not man made up of spirit, soul and body?
And if this man of dust spoken of here did not already have a spirit, soul and body can it be rightly called man?
Cannot we understand by this that man was already created? And that God is doing something other then creating a natural man here?
God is not creating a natural man here as in the creation of the first man Adam, but He is shaping man to be in His image and likeness here.
We read in Genesis 1:26-27
26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. 27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
The word created here comes from the Hebrew word bara and formed from Genesis 2:7 is the Hebrew word yatsar.
So why does the scriptures use two different words if they are both dealing with the creation of man?
Because the man being formed in Genesis 2:7 finds his fulfillment in Gen.1:26-27 in being created in the image and likeness of God.
Yatsar comes with the weight of something being squeezed into shape as a potter molding the clay.
Genesis 2:7 is telling us the process of how we are being formed into the image and likeness of God, it is not telling us how natural man was created, but it is telling us how the spiritual man is being created.
Genesis 2:7
7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
Now we have always read this scripture (me included) as to how MAN was originally created. And I believe we have been understanding it all wrong.
This is not speaking about how man was originally created, but rather it is speaking of how God is making the MAN he originally created into His image and likeness.
Now when God formed MAN He formed MAN from the dust of the ground.
Now this MAN God formed from the dust of the ground already had a spirit, soul, and body. He is the flesh man or the old man or the man of sin, a living creature/beast man that lives unto itself, this is that MAN we are/were before God breathes the breath of life unto MAN.
Now Gods breath is the brimstone (Is.30:33) spoken of in the second death and here it is called the BREATH OF LIFE. Now why would that which is seen as part of the make up of the second death be called the breath of life?
To understand why a part of the second death is called the breath of life let's look at the meaning of the word BREATH.
It comes from the Hebrew word n\eshamah which is rooted in the Hebrew word nasham which means to destroy but also carries the weight of a woman in travail.
When God breathed the BREATH OF LIFE unto MAN it was for the destruction of the MAN that he was by birthing in the MAN of dust Jesus Christ.
It is because of this MAN became a living soul.
Now living soul and living creature come from the same Hebrew word nephesh.
The MAN of dust was a living creature/nephesh, living its own life until the BREATH OF LIFE was breathed upon him. Once the BREATH OF LIFE which is the birth/manifestation of Jesus Christ in the MAN of dust, MAN became a living soul/nephesh or a new creature in Christ.
QuoteSo is Jesus talking about our 'tare" parts here? But a tare only looks like wheat, it can never be wheat. A tare is a different plant altogether. Then why would he bother to instruct the tare to love God? Such would be impossible. The tare is destined for destruction, whereas the heart and mind are our highest faculties as humans. So do we have a fourth component called the 'carnal mind'?
Its Impossible for a Tare to Love God (Pharisee, exemplify what OUR Flesh Is), But it doesnt Prevent the decree ,One gives Up Life to Gain it, the destruction of the Soulish Mind...Math 23.
The wisdom from Below is Earthly, Christ Is The WISDOM from Above , Him in US
Yes a Tare Can Never Be wheat, Tis why Its destroyed ....Then renewed :icon_flower:
The mystery Secret of the Ages is about the
HIDDEN man of the Heart.
The Tares ( The soul of man as explained) GROWS ""with" the "WHEAT", That wheat IS the Hidden Man of the heart, which is hides behind the veil
within.
When the Harvest Is Ready , the Carnal Mind( soul) Is Burnt( destroyed) which UNVIELS the Hidden Man of The Heart( wheat, this is all happening within us.....)
so No, we do Not have a Fourth component, not for mine anyways. :icon_flower:
:icon_flower:
Quote from: PneumaThe MAN of dust was a living creature/nephesh, living its own life until the BREATH OF LIFE was breathed upon him. Once the BREATH OF LIFE which is the birth/manifestation of Jesus Christ in the MAN of dust, MAN became a living soul/nephesh or a new creature in Christ.
So could we conclude from this that Eve was not a
living soul? And, that is why she was deceived?
Quote from: Molly on December 12, 2008, 06:27:14 PM
Quote from: PneumaThe MAN of dust was a living creature/nephesh, living its own life until the BREATH OF LIFE was breathed upon him. Once the BREATH OF LIFE which is the birth/manifestation of Jesus Christ in the MAN of dust, MAN became a living soul/nephesh or a new creature in Christ.
So could we conclude from this that Eve was not a living soul? And, that is why she was deceived?
As Eve was in Adam when God breathed the breath of Life, I would say she recieved it to.
Quote from: pneuma on December 12, 2008, 06:37:49 PM
Quote from: Molly on December 12, 2008, 06:27:14 PM
Quote from: PneumaThe MAN of dust was a living creature/nephesh, living its own life until the BREATH OF LIFE was breathed upon him. Once the BREATH OF LIFE which is the birth/manifestation of Jesus Christ in the MAN of dust, MAN became a living soul/nephesh or a new creature in Christ.
So could we conclude from this that Eve was not a living soul? And, that is why she was deceived?
As Eve was in Adam when God breathed the breath of Life, I would say she recieved it to.
They why is she deceived and he isn't?
Quote from: Molly on December 12, 2008, 06:42:33 PM
Quote from: pneuma on December 12, 2008, 06:37:49 PM
Quote from: Molly on December 12, 2008, 06:27:14 PM
Quote from: PneumaThe MAN of dust was a living creature/nephesh, living its own life until the BREATH OF LIFE was breathed upon him. Once the BREATH OF LIFE which is the birth/manifestation of Jesus Christ in the MAN of dust, MAN became a living soul/nephesh or a new creature in Christ.
So could we conclude from this that Eve was not a living soul? And, that is why she was deceived?
As Eve was in Adam when God breathed the breath of Life, I would say she recieved it to.
They why is she deceived and he isn't?
Have a Think Molly, What Part of Man is deceived ?.. for mine ,the answer has already been given :icon_flower:
Quote from: Taffy on December 12, 2008, 06:52:27 PM
Quote from: Molly on December 12, 2008, 06:42:33 PM
Quote from: pneuma on December 12, 2008, 06:37:49 PM
Quote from: Molly on December 12, 2008, 06:27:14 PM
Quote from: PneumaThe MAN of dust was a living creature/nephesh, living its own life until the BREATH OF LIFE was breathed upon him. Once the BREATH OF LIFE which is the birth/manifestation of Jesus Christ in the MAN of dust, MAN became a living soul/nephesh or a new creature in Christ.
So could we conclude from this that Eve was not a living soul? And, that is why she was deceived?
As Eve was in Adam when God breathed the breath of Life, I would say she recieved it to.
They why is she deceived and he isn't?
Have a Think Molly, What Part of Man is deceived ?.. for mine ,the answer has already been given :icon_flower:
So you are saying Eve represents the flesh of man [Adam]?
Adam = your spirit
Eve = your mind
serpent = ego.
Ego is flesh, spirit is light, the mind is the part of me that "chooses" whether to follow ego, or follow spirit. This is the simplest explanation I can come up with for where I'm at right now.
Have a Think Molly, What Part of Man is deceived ?.. for mine ,the answer has already been given :icon_flower:
[/quote]So you are saying Eve represents the flesh of man?
[/quote]
No, You said It :laughing7:....
similitudes Molly.
How is The Flesh\soul of Man restored?..maybe the Second Adam :icon_flower: which Takes Us back to the Beginning ,being made equal,in the Kingdom there is NO MALE and Female? :icon_flower:
Quote from: Nathan on December 12, 2008, 06:59:05 PM
Adam = your spirit
Eve = your mind
serpent = ego.
Ego is flesh, spirit is light, the mind is the part of me that "chooses" whether to follow ego, or follow spirit. This is the simplest explanation I can come up with for where I'm at right now.
Where did you come from :laughing7:
My Mamma! :first:
So has Christ literally given us [his Eve] a new body [flesh]?
35 But someone will say, "How are the dead raised? What kind of body will they have when they come?" 36 Foolish one! What you sow does not come to life unless it dies. 37 And as for what you sow—you are not sowing the future body, but only a seed, perhaps of wheat or another grain. 38 But God gives it a body as He wants, and to each of the seeds its own body. 39 Not all flesh is the same flesh; there is one flesh for humans, another for animals, another for birds, and another for fish. 40 There are heavenly bodies and earthly bodies, but the splendor of the heavenly bodies is different from that of the earthly ones. 41 There is a splendor of the sun, another of the moon, and another of the stars; for star differs from star in splendor. 42 So it is with the resurrection of the dead:
--1Cor 15
John 19:34
But one of the soldiers with a spear pierced his side, and forthwith came there out blood and water.
19 Therefore, brothers, since we have boldness to enter the sanctuary through the blood of Jesus, 20 by the new and living way that He has inaugurated for us, through the curtain (that is, His flesh ); 21 and since we have a great high priest over the house of God, 22 let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, our hearts sprinkled [clean] from an evil conscience and our bodies washed in pure water.
--Heb 10
"true" [heart]
G228
ἀληθινός
alēthinos
al-ay-thee-nos'
From G227; truthful: - true.
Ezekiel 11:19
And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them an heart of flesh:
20That they may walk in my statutes, and keep mine ordinances, and do them: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God.
Just as some believe in post-trib, pre-trib, mid-trib . . .I'm a "pan-trib". Everything will pan out in the end . . .it's an oldie, I know, but when dealing with subjects like this, that always comes back to me. I know we'll all have transformed and eternal bodies to replace these aging and aching ones. I also beleive that "we're the ones that can bring that about by again, entering into the realm where all things are complete, and begin speaking those finished things in Spirit, as though they are in the flesh.
I'm crazy enough to believe that the day is going to come when the glory of the Lord covers my earth as the waters cover the see and the faith is going to be flowing so forcefully and effeciently that we'll look at passages that speak of immortal bodies and we'll say "I can see that happening right now . . ." and we'll just stop dying . . . and why not.
But in the mean time, we need to understand and pursue the spiritual immortality that "can" be manifested in us now as it's been available to all men for 2,000 years and counting.
A thought with the Eve thing . . .if you read the origin carefully, you'll note that Eve didn't change when she ate of the fruit. She ate "before" giving it to Adam. But it wasn't until "Adam" ate that they both saw their nakedness. Why do you suppose that was?
Because Eve finally realized it when she saw Adam's eyes suddenly popping out of his head? :laughing7:. He was our forefather you know.
Quote from: Molly on December 12, 2008, 08:13:05 PM
So has Christ literally given us [his Eve] a new body [flesh]?
35 But someone will say, "How are the dead raised? What kind of body will they have when they come?" 36 Foolish one! What you sow does not come to life unless it dies. 37 And as for what you sow—you are not sowing the future body, but only a seed, perhaps of wheat or another grain. 38 But God gives it a body as He wants, and to each of the seeds its own body. 39 Not all flesh is the same flesh; there is one flesh for humans, another for animals, another for birds, and another for fish. 40 There are heavenly bodies and earthly bodies, but the splendor of the heavenly bodies is different from that of the earthly ones. 41 There is a splendor of the sun, another of the moon, and another of the stars; for star differs from star in splendor. 42 So it is with the resurrection of the dead:
--1Cor 15
John 19:34
But one of the soldiers with a spear pierced his side, and forthwith came there out blood and water.
19 Therefore, brothers, since we have boldness to enter the sanctuary through the blood of Jesus, 20 by the new and living way that He has inaugurated for us, through the curtain (that is, His flesh ); 21 and since we have a great high priest over the house of God, 22 let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, our hearts sprinkled [clean] from an evil conscience and our bodies washed in pure water.
--Heb 10
"true" [heart]
G228
ἀληθινός
alēthinos
al-ay-thee-nos'
From G227; truthful: - true.
Ezekiel 11:19
And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them an heart of flesh:
20That they may walk in my statutes, and keep mine ordinances, and do them: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God.
Molly,
Search some....DIG for yourself, LET him reveal.
start here..ket me Know what ya Find...
Gen 2:23 And Adam said, This [is] now
bone of my bones, and
flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man.
Eph 5:30 For we are
members of his body, of his
flesh, and of his bones. If ya would have read me posts ,Im sure ive given in recent times the explaination of the Glory of the Stars Moons etc...let me know if ya cant find it...
Go dig sister...sometimes Tis the ONLY way :icon_flower:
Ok, so the thing about Adam and Eve just went [whoosh] over my head. But the rest of it is beginning to make sense. Honestly, I've read so many of those passages about heart, soul, mind, and spirit but I never really thought about what they are! :Oops: Perhaps it was that Biblephobia . . . :sigh:
The first time I read the "multiple men inside every man" concept I thought it was far-flung, frankly. I can't say I've ever really heard this before. I always understood flesh=body and soul/spirit=inner self. It's so much more complicated than that . . . so other than 1 Thessalonians 5:23, are there any other verses that explicitly discuss our component parts and what they are? I'd like to study this idea further.
Allow me to pester you with more (probably redundant) questions :thumbsup:
If we are flesh, spirit, and soul, can someone please explain where the heart and mind fit in? Why aren't they part of the three main components?
Which parts of us exist eternally, or into the future?
Is saying that the tares of Matthew 13 are "carnal men within us" really justified? How can we justify this application?
I'm trying to develop a working definition of these things so that I can apply it to Matthew 13 :bigGrin:
For me, heart and spirit are one and the same . .as is soul and flesh. And the tares in me are the imperfections in me that God is kinda saying . . .hey, you are perfected in me, stop trying to perfect what's in you. The tares, I think of them like a person who is constantly trying to remove the little specs of dust off their clothes . .we're constantly brushing oursleves off, picking at scabs from past scars, almost being healed, but never really because we won't leave well enough alone.
My nature . .I am a field that seeds are planted in. The fruit of those things planted become the manifestation to others of my nature from within. And of course, others will also see the tares, which leads you to the spec in your neighbor's eye and the beam in yours . .that was really the same principle there as well. Leave them alone . . .let them mature into what God has ordained for them to be, not what "I" think they should become.
So the tares in me are my faults, failures, bad habits . . .but in the end, the angels (messenger/message) are what does the dividing . . .flesh from spirit . . .it's not people or people's ministries, it's the Word of God that does the separating in me.
1 Thes 5:23 [ Greek Font Size: – / + | Toggle Font ] [ View in: BYZ / TR | Side-by-side | Greek Lexical Parser ]
And the very God of peace sanctify (5659) you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved (5684) blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Spirit= Pneuma (transliterated)
the third person of the triune God, the Holy Spirit, coequal, coeternal with the Father and the Son
sometimes referred to in a way which emphasises his personality and character (the \Holy\ Spirit)
sometimes referred to in a way which emphasises his work and power (the Spirit of \Truth\)
never referred to as a depersonalised force
the spirit, i.e. the vital principal by which the body is animated
the rational spirit, the power by which the human being feels, thinks, decides
the soul
a spirit, i.e. a simple essence, devoid of all or at least all grosser matter, and possessed of the power of knowing, desiring, deciding, and acting
a life giving spirit
a human soul that has left the body
a spirit higher than man but lower than God, i.e. an angel
used of demons, or evil spirits, who were conceived as inhabiting the bodies of men
the spiritual nature of Christ, higher than the highest angels and equal to God, the divine nature of Christ
the disposition or influence which fills and governs the soul of any one
the efficient source of any power, affection, emotion, desire, etc.
a movement of air (a gentle blast)
of the wind, hence the wind itself
breath of nostrils or mouth
Soul= Psuche (transliterated)
breath
the breath of life
the vital force which animates the body and shows itself in breathing 1a
of animals 1a
of men
life
that in which there is life
a living being, a living soul
the soul
the seat of the feelings, desires, affections, aversions (our heart, soul etc.)
the (human) soul in so far as it is constituted that by the right use of the aids offered it by God it can attain its highest end and secure eternal blessedness, the soul regarded as a moral being designed for everlasting life
the soul as an essence which differs from the body and is not dissolved by death (distinguished from other parts of the body)
Body= Soma (transliterated)
the body both of men or animals
a dead body or corpse
the living body
of animals
the bodies of planets and of stars (heavenly bodies)
is used of a (large or small) number of men closely united into one society, or family as it were; a social, ethical, mystical body
so in the NT of the church
that which casts a shadow as distinguished from the shadow itself
The previous were derived from the KJV Strong's Version. I think there are some biases in the definitions based on earlier understandings of the words as they were translated into Latin and other languages. The original Greek meanings of the words may still elude us.
1 Thes 5:23 seems to clearly establish a difference between the three.
Mathew 28:19 [ Greek Font Size: – / + | Toggle Font ] [ View in: BYZ / TR | Side-by-side | Greek Lexical Parser ]
Go ye (5679) therefore, and teach (5657) all nations, baptizing (5723) them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
This verse shows the "immage" of God in which we were created. Just as He is a triune being, so are we. (eg. spirit, soul, and body)
Quote from: Taffy on December 03, 2008, 12:04:20 PM
Quote from: Zeek on December 03, 2008, 08:07:18 AM
Gal 4:22 For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.
Gal 4:23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.
Gal 4:24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which engendereth to bondage, which is Hagar.
Gal 4:25 For this Hagar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.
Gal 4:26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.
Gal 4:27 For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not; for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath a husband.
Gal 4:28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.
Gal 4:29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.
Gal 4:30 Nevertheless what saith the Scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.
Gal 4:31 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.
two covenants
those who held onto the old=tares, children of the bondwoman, Ishmaels; who persecuted the first century church, whose pride in the law system had to be crushed.
the new: those given faith, eyes to see, who turned away from the old system. FAITH. rewarded.
One to be burned, one to be rewarded. In the end, the consumation of an age (the old covenant age).
In with the NEW, the new covenant age.
Some saved from the fire, many were not saved.
But with the changing of the covenants, All reconciled through the NEW
:thumbsup:
Old Man , New Man , Night , Day ,Slave, Heir, babe\Child , Son etc
What exactly DO you believe, Taffy?
Ho A...
Hang about Some ..or if Ya Choose..read many Posts from the Profile..youll Get A picture...
If ,In anyway You struggling to see a Point..Then Please ask and Ill do me Utmost to Help...but sometimes that doesnt work Either :icon_flower:
Christ Died For ALL,...Not a few..which is a Brief summary :icon_flower:
Quote from: Taffy on December 14, 2008, 03:37:40 AM
Ho A...
Hang about Some ..or if Ya Choose..read many Posts from the Profile..youll Get A picture...
If ,In anyway You struggling to see a Point..Then Please ask and Ill do me Utmost to Help...but sometimes that doesnt work Either :icon_flower:
Christ Died For ALL,...Not a few..which is a Brief summary :icon_flower:
Well, I just can't tell if you b elieve in UR or not- which is what I believe in. And you seem pretty fond of that flower...
Quote from: Andromeda_Organa on December 14, 2008, 03:44:43 AM
Quote from: Taffy on December 14, 2008, 03:37:40 AM
Ho A...
Hang about Some ..or if Ya Choose..read many Posts from the Profile..youll Get A picture...
If ,In anyway You struggling to see a Point..Then Please ask and Ill do me Utmost to Help...but sometimes that doesnt work Either :icon_flower:
Christ Died For ALL,...Not a few..which is a Brief summary :icon_flower:
Well, I just can't tell if you b elieve in UR or not- which is what I believe in. And you seem pretty fond of that flower...
Yeah That Flower, Kinda Like it, sorta a Calling card , A sunny Face, with 8 Blue Petals :icon_flower:
I just responded to your Pm...
Yes, Christ THE SAVIOR of ALL... :icon_flower:
in that same light, then the passage you quoted would be saying that God is sending those who don't "know" him to hell as well. Yes?
All things are spiritual . . .which for me is "internal". Internally, I have wheat and tares. I have godly traits and ungodly traits. It is not for me to try to remove my ungodly traits by my own reasoning, but rather, as my wheat comes into maturity, the message of light then does the harvesting, as the spirit sifts the wheat in me from the tares in me . . .it's a spiritual process of maturity and the barn to me is the temple made up of living stones. . .which is believers in the faith of Truth.
It's just another dimension or perspective.
For me, the other doesn't fit either in the sense that we are taught to separate ourselves from the world . .from flesh . . .but here with the tares, we're told to leave them where they are .. . which is it? Am I to separate myself from ungodly people or not?
... a struggle within!
But I say, walk by the Spirit, and do not gratify the desires of the flesh. For the desires of the flesh are against the Spirit, and the desires of the Spirit are against the flesh; for these are opposed to each other, to prevent you from doing what you would. But if you are led by the Spirit you are not under the law (Galatians 5:16-18) – of the flesh.
Excellent questions, and responses ...love, joy and peace, as not all desires are of the flesh.
peacemaker
One more distinction:
Spirit= Had no beginning and will have no end
Soul= Had a beginning but will have no end
Body = Had a beginning and will have an end
I know this is off topic, but why are all of Brian's posts a period now?
Quote from: Andromeda_Organa on December 18, 2008, 07:56:01 PM
I know this is off topic, but why are all of Brian's posts a period now?
He seems to have deleted them along with His account,youll probably pick a Little more up as you browse certain threads . :icon_flower:
This still isn't settling yet, I can't respond to it in the Revelation thread, I can't clarify questions raised there, so I will try to do what I can here. The passage in question is again, Matthew 13.
36Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field. 37He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man; 8The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one; 39The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels. 40As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world. 41The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; 42And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. 43Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.
One of the arguements that even the disciples had with Jesus was . .why couldn't he just be straight forward? Why couldn't he say things about what is spiritual and what is carnal? Why did he always present his message is a "story-book" format? Time and time again, the disciples would constantly be tripping over their minds when trying to comprehend things Jesus said. There was a time when they were getting into a boat and Jesus told them to beware of the leaven of the pharisees . . .and the disciples were all upset because they "thought" Jesus was mad at them for forgetting to bring food on the trip.
They never understood what he meant, even though it seems he was so clear, when he told them he was going away to die . . . after everything was said and done, he died, was buried and then resurrected and was with them again . . .they STILL thought he was PHYSCIALLY going to overthrow the Roman government and literally be the king of the Jews. It was not until the outpouring of the Holy Spirit that the natural stories Jesus planted in them, came to spiritual life.
So here, they don't get the parable of the good seed, the bad seed. . .so they pull Jesus aside to explain . .bear in mind . . .the Holy Spirit had still not yet been poured out. Which means that they still weren't going to comprehend what Jesus was saying at that time. So he explains to them about the tares NOT being removed from the wheat. If you choose to embrace the idea that this is literally dealing with godly men versus ungodly men . . .could you then explain why would removing the ungodly men would damage the godly men? That "is" why the tares were to remain . . . because if the tares would be removed, it would damage the wheat.
-------------------------------------------------
That's major problem #1.
Problem #2 is . . .can you explain to me what it means when we see all through the New Testament the little phrase "he that hath an ear, let him hear"?
Very curious to hear the explanation on these two issues.
Let me give Explanations to Problem #1 & #2
1.
The disciples at that time have no eyes to distinguish tares from the wheat.
So if they are allowed to remove tares, they would remove anything, including wheat.
Likewise, we do not know what is good to God's standard,
However, we are judging good and evil by our own standard, ethical probably.
This will damage God's good.
Think about what Saul(Paul) did, before he met Jesus.
2.
They, the disciples, can do that only when
they reached Pentacost stage of their faith.
At that stage, they will become the reapers, the angels in the parable,
who have eyes to distinguish good and evil.
And only at that point,
they can understand the meaning of this parable.
But now, no matter what extra explanation are given,
they cannot hear.
They will not know what it means, until they grow up to that stage.
So the Bible is not to be studied,
but as we grow in faith, the Bible will read to us.
Quote from: 70sevens on December 23, 2008, 06:41:48 PM
Let me give Explanations to Problem #1 & #2
1.
The disciples at that time have no eyes to distinguish tares from the wheat.
So if they are allowed to remove tares, they would remove anything, including wheat.
Likewise, we do not know what is good to God's standard,
However, we are judging good and evil by our own standard, ethical probably.
This will damage God's good.
Think about what Saul(Paul) did, before he met Jesus.
2.
They, the disciples, can do that only when
they reached Pentacost stage of their faith.
At that stage, they will become the reapers, the angels in the parable,
who have eyes to distinguish good and evil.
And only at that point,
they can understand the meaning of this parable.
But now, no matter what extra explanation are given,
they cannot hear.
They will not know what it means, until they grow up to that stage.
So the Bible is not to be studied,
but as we grow in faith, the Bible will read to us.
So are you saying then the wheat to you are godly people and tares are ungodly? that's been the argument from the beginning.
Quote from Nathan--------------------------
So are you saying then the wheat to you are godly people
and tares are ungodly? that's been the argument from the beginning.
--------------------------------------------
Yes, that's right. I do not see any problem saying that.
Earlier, I mentioned that tare is flesh(=sinner)
and wheat is spirit(=born-again man).
Blessings.
Okay, "if" it's dealing with godly people versus ungodly people . . .then what damage is being done if the one is being removed from the other? How can removing ungodly people from godly people, damage the godly people?
The point is this.
Tare himself does not have eyes to distinguish tare and wheat.
Think about one of the famous tares, Saul (former name of Paul).
You would know what Saul did before he met Jesus?
He was the man who tried very hard to single out tares from wheat in the name of God.
But, in fact, what he singled out were wheat, not tares.
He put that wheat into jail.
Saul was doing damages to wheat in the process of removing tares.
So Jesus said to Saul when He met him in Damascus.
[Ac 9:4]
And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him,
Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?
He persecuted (damaged) the believers in the name of God ignorantly.
And could it be that it has to do with my attitude, that I'm not to judge and try to remove the bad? What if I'm wrong? It better be real obvious, because most of the time, I'd say we don't really know the difference...only God sees the heart.
Quote from: 70sevens on December 24, 2008, 09:04:15 AM
The point is this.
Tare himself does not have eyes to distinguish tare and wheat.
Think about one of the famous tares, Saul (former name of Paul).
You would know what Saul did before he met Jesus?
He was the man who tried very hard to single out tares from wheat in the name of God.
But, in fact, what he singled out were wheat, not tares.
He put that wheat into jail.
Saul was doing damages to wheat in the process of removing tares.
So Jesus said to Saul when He met him in Damascus.
[Ac 9:4]
And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him,
Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?
He persecuted (damaged) the believers in the name of God ignorantly.
The interesting thing about that is that Paul was getting it right every single time. He could tell the tares from the wheat, he just didn't know which was which.
Was Paul ever a tare himself? I find it hard to say that about a man who was set apart in his mother's womb.
15But when God, who set me apart from birth and called me by his grace, was pleased16to reveal his Son in me so that I might preach him among the Gentiles, I did not consult any man,
--Gal 1
"set me apart"G873
ἀφορίζω
aphorizōaf-or-id'-zo
From G575 and G3724;
to set off by boundary, that is, (figuratively) limit, exclude,
appoint, etc.: - divide, separate, sever.
Oh look at this.
15Faithful [is] the word, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom *I* am [the] first [Greek: protos].
--1 Tim (Darby Translation)
Paul is not saying he is the first sinner, or the worst sinner--he is saying he is the first sinner to be saved.
Hebrews 9:28
So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.
It is the second appearance [coming of] Christ which Paul experienced on the road to Damascus. That word "appear" is "optonomai," meaning "to gaze with wide open eyes"--Paul sees Christ and he is changed!
16But for this reason mercy was shewn me, that in me, [the] first [Greek:protos], Jesus Christ might display the whole long-suffering, for a delineation of those about to believe on him to life eternal.
--1Tim 1
He is saying that Jesus is using him as an example of what it looks like for those who are about to believe on Christ unto eternal life. He is the first example of this process of receiving God's mercy unto salvation.
What happens to him on the road to Damascus?--a blinding light and voice.
We know what that voice is--John has already told us in the first chapter of Revelation--"a great voice as of a trumpet" [Rev 1:10]
And Paul will tell us in 1Cor 15 that when the last trumpet (the trumpet of tabernacles) sounds, in a moment, meaning on an atomic level (greek:atomos), in the twinkling of an eye, we shall be changed.
17Now to the King of the ages, [the] incorruptible, invisible, only God, honour and glory to the ages of ages. Amen.
--1Tim 1
Nice post Molly , That eyesalve is AWESOME
Quote from: Taffy on December 24, 2008, 01:56:54 PM
Nice post Molly , That eyesalve is AWESOME
Yes, Nathan has pointed out we are in the third day, which would be tabernacles, and Tony has pointed out our God is the happy God. I never saw that before but if God is happy, that's good enough for me--I find that very comforting because He knows more than I do.
1Tim 1:11
According to the Gospel of the blessed God, which was committed to my trust."blessed" [God]
G3107
makarios
supremely blessed, happy
QuoteOkay, "if" it's dealing with godly people versus ungodly people . . .then what damage is being done if the one is being removed from the other? How can removing ungodly people from godly people, damage the godly people?
The reason given in scripture is that one might accidentily pull up/destroy the godly while pulling out the ungodly. The correct time to separate is harvest time, perhaps when the difference between wheat and tares is clearly seen. In other words, let the evil become exceedingly evil and the good become exceedingly good so the distiction is clearly made. If I am a young wheat bud :happygrin: and am deciding whom to follow, I may choose a tare if he looks a lot like me. I may stay in the city, be gathered in the barn, and burned. This is why the burning didn't occur until harvest time when the plants were mature. I'm sure by that time it was very apparent who were followers of Jesus and who were not. In the beginning Christianity was seen as more of a theological deviation, it wasn't until later that the radicalness of it manifested.
From reading the parable we get the mental picture of winged creatures separating people, but in reality it is people who separate themselves based upon their response to the messenger. If the flood or fire comes to early, the message hasn't been given the chance to reveal the heart.
It is not the person who is burned up but their unworthy works (the tares). That which remains (the wheat) is their worthy works.
1 Corinthians 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned up, he shall suffer loss; but he himself shall be saved, yet so as by fire.
Quote from: Sarah on December 24, 2008, 10:29:54 PM
QuoteOkay, "if" it's dealing with godly people versus ungodly people . . .
then what damage is being done if the one is being removed from the other?
How can removing ungodly people from godly people, damage the godly people?
The reason given in scripture is that one might accidentily pull up/destroy the godly while pulling out the ungodly.
The correct time to separate is harvest time, perhaps when the difference between wheat and tares is clearly seen.
I am afraid
here, Jesus is not saying the bud time of tares and wheat,
but fruit time when both are fully grown and are clearly distinguishable.
Please see the following verse.
[Mt 13:26]
But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit,
then appeared the tares also.
So it is not matter of accidentality that might happen because of bud time,
but the matter of his beingness whether tare or wheat.
Tares have no eyes.
So they cannot tell tares from wheat, even though tares have reached fruit time.
For instance, Saul (tare) watched and saw the fruit of tares,
and he tried to remove them. But they were wheat.
Someone said about Saul as follows:
"He could tell the tares from the wheat, he just didn't know which was which."
The above sentence is self-contradictory.
If a person could tell the tares from the wheat, he did know which was which.
Quote from: alihaymeg on December 24, 2008, 11:03:27 PM
It is not the person who is burned up but their unworthy works (the tares). That which remains (the wheat) is their worthy works.
1 Corinthians 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned up, he shall suffer loss; but he himself shall be saved, yet so as by fire.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
I certainly agree with the point of your message along with the quoted scripture Alihaymeg.
For me this message has been made plain:
That all of mankind shall be found with some works to be burned, some possibly much more than others, most may go through that burning during the course of this life before the grave that part is up to God who knows the heart because there are far too many things where the flesh profits nothing outside of the temporal fruits of our sweat and labor in this life, in fact scripture tells us the flesh profits nothing spiritualy in eternal things, that I believe is what Paul was pointing out when he said: that which he would do he did not, and the very things he would not do that he did because of the tare (sin) that dwelled within him. He probably knew which things they were yet as he prayed many times asking for God to remove this thorne God said "no", God knew Paul would be exalted above measure by other men and maybe even in Pauls own eyes, so Gods ways are not our ways when it comes to working out Gods devine plan for each and every one of us.
It appears we all have the tares and the wheat within us, if we try to improve and remove the tare or what we think is tare by the doctrines and standards set forth by men or by our own measure and standard it would be no more than works of
self-righteousness which could damage or hinder the wheat within us far more than if we just left it to rest in Christ and trusted in Gods grace and the Spirits guidance within until the end as he is the one who directs our steps in sickness and in health just as he did with Job and many others while in this life.
Peace,
Fire Walker
1Awake, awake; put on thy strength, O Zion; put on thy beautiful garments, Jerusalem, the holy city: for henceforth there shall no more come into thee the uncircumcised and the unclean.
2Shake thyself from the dust; arise, sit down, Jerusalem: loose thyself from the bands of thy neck, captive daughter of Zion.
3For thus saith Jehovah: Ye have sold yourselves for nought, and ye shall be redeemed without money.
4For thus saith the Lord Jehovah: My people went down at the first into Egypt to sojourn there, and Assyria oppressed them without cause;
5and now, what have I here, saith Jehovah, that my people hath been taken away for nought? They that rule over them make them to howl, saith Jehovah; and continually all the day is my name scorned.
6Therefore my people shall know my name; therefore [they shall know] in that day that I [am] HE, that saith, Here am I.
7How beautiful upon the mountains are the feet of him that announceth glad tidings, that publisheth peace; that announceth glad tidings of good, that publisheth salvation, that saith unto Zion, Thy God reigneth!
8-- The voice of thy watchmen, they lift up the voice, they sing aloud together; for they shall see eye to eye, when Jehovah shall bring again Zion.
9Break forth, sing aloud together, waste places of Jerusalem; for Jehovah comforteth his people, he hath redeemed Jerusalem.
10Jehovah hath made bare his holy arm in the sight of all the nations; and all the ends of the earth shall see the salvation of our God.
11-- Depart, depart, go out from thence, touch not what is unclean; go out of the midst of her, be ye clean, that bear the vessels of Jehovah.
12For ye shall not go out with haste, nor go by flight; for Jehovah will go before you, and the God of Israel will be your rear-guard.
13Behold, my servant shall deal prudently; he shall be exalted and be lifted up, and be very high.
14As many were astonished at thee -- his visage was so marred more than any man, and his form more than the children of men
15-- so shall he astonish many nations; kings shall shut their mouths at him: for what had not been told them shall they see, and what they had not heard shall they consider.
--Isa 52
10 Love works no ill to its neighbour; love therefore [is the] whole law.
11This also, knowing the time, that it is already time that *we* should be aroused out of sleep; for now [is] our salvation nearer than when we believed.
12The night is far spent, and the day is near; let us cast away therefore the works of darkness, and let us put on the armour of light.
13As in the day, let us walk becomingly; not in rioting and drunkenness, not in chambering and lasciviousness, not in strife and emulation.
14But put on the Lord Jesus Christ, and do not take forethought for the flesh to [fulfil its] lusts.
--Rom 13
[all the ends of the earth shall see]
"the salvation of our God"
Y'shuah 'ĕlôhîym
Mathew 13
36Then he left the crowd and went into the house. His disciples came to him and said, "Explain to us the parable of the weeds in the field."
37He answered, "The one who sowed the good seed is the Son of Man. 38The field is the world, and the good seed stands for the sons of the kingdom. The weeds are the sons of the evil one, 39and the enemy who sows them is the devil. The harvest is the end of the age, and the harvesters are angels.
40"As the weeds are pulled up and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of the age. 41The Son of Man will send out his angels, and they will weed out of his kingdom
everything that causes sin and all who do evil. 42They will throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. 43Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear.
The explanation of the parable is very clear. Yes, the seed does refer to men and things within men. And obviously since God is the savior of all men I am not promoting annihilation. It is a matter of falling on the rock and being broken, or having the rock fall on you and being ground to powder.
Quoteam afraid
here, Jesus is not saying the bud time of tares and wheat,
but fruit time when both are fully grown and are clearly distinguishable.
Please see the following verse.
I think this is what I was saying.
QuoteIt is not the person who is burned up but their unworthy works (the tares). That which remains (the wheat) is their worthy works.
I agree. But what of pharisee who has no worthy works? All was built on the sand of ritual and tradition and not on love and mercy. When the winds came and the collapse of the house was complete and disasterous, certainly their was much weeping and knashing of teeth. As it will be for us if we come to the end of our days in this tent and realize that our life was nothing more than fit for a garbage dump because all was done in self serving purposes.
I agree...I believe that in some rare cases (Pharisees, Hitler) the only thing that may be worth saving is the spirit within us, which will return to God from whence it came.
God will eventually purify every human soul. Yes, even Hitler and the Pharisees will eventually get there. Our works refers to more than what can be observed overtly. Only God knows the desires of the heart, and He is the only worthy judge. I don't know anyone who is incapable of showing kindness, or patience, or gentleness, or meekness, or longsuffering etc. These are the fruits of the spirit and they are the "good works" that we are talking about. Jesus said to love God with all of your being, and to love your neighbor as yourself. This sums up the Law and the Prophets. It is really very simple (in theory). Just walk in love and don't do anything without listening to your spirit. However (in practice) it is much harder to do than to say.
Being a student of psychology, I see people all the time who are suffering from mental and physical ailments that keep them from being able to control their anger and other compulsions. It is easy to make the "Fundamental Attribution Error" and assume that these actions are due to the person's character. We see ourselves, on the other hand, as being the victims of circumstance when we fail to walk in love. The point is that it may take longer for some to reach perfection, but all eventually will.
Great Post Alimayheg!
Yes, the good works are the natural outcropping of the spirit. When I think of not producing the fruits of the spirit, it is because the life is spent in the satisfying of the lusts of the flesh, the lusts of the eye, and the pride of life. What better way to satisfy the flesh than to elevate oneself through religious ideology while hypocritically satisfying the lusts! The Pharasee was great at this, but I think we would be presumptuous to think this spirit is rare and limited to those in Jesus time and Hitler.
When I think of the 'punishment' of this person, it is in realization. It is a realization of the truth. That you spent your whole life for a worthless cause, that the product of your endevers were useless, that your fruit was nasty, and the vanity of your life is fit for the dump. You also realize the impact you have had on others, good or bad. I believe the experience would be like loosing children. But thank God their is restoration and love!
Yep! There will be restoration and love for every one. Even though those who put themselves first here will be last in the kingdom to come, they will still be welcomed in. Those who live a life of servitude will inherit the positions of authority in the next age (It is not earnable by works of the flesh, but is only achievable by obedience to the Holy Spirit).
Free will is an illusion. I use instruments for evaluating a person's tendencies to respond on a regular basis. These instruments use very focused questions intended to limit the posible responses. The most focused question is "True & False". It leaves little room for interpretation or subtlety. Our predicament is like that. Yes, we have choices, but they are limited between two extremes. Two voices influence us. The voice of the Holy Spirit and the voice of the flesh. Our (so called) free will does not allow us to create other options for responding. We are limited to these two. Yes, life is a test. But it is not a pass or fail situation. Even if we never make the correct response, we are still sons and daughters of God.
I've enjoyed this thread. I can't tell you how great it is to see that there are many coming into the realization that this wheat and tares thing is not just dealing with sinners and saints. I believe that "does" have an application, but for me, it's not to be the emphasis. The emphasis for me is understanding that there are both the good seeds and bad planted within me. And as I mature . . .the fruit of both come to manifest. What separates them in me is the Word of God . . not Scripture . .but the living Word that Scripture is a part of, just not the whole.
In the natural, when a tare sprouts up with the wheat, they look identical. The naked eye can't tell which one is of worth and which one is not. It's only through the maturity of time in both that it becomes evident which one is which. the wheat becomes heavy with fruit and it bows over . . .a sign of submission . . .where as the tare, which has a pod similar to the wheat but the pod of a tare is hollow . . .causing it to stand erect and brittle. The sign of pride.
There has been no really good explanation given to explain why sinners are not to be separated from saints or what kind of damage the removal of the sinners would have on the saints . . . that was why I kept asking the questions . . .
The other point on this is . . .it is a field where a crop is planted .. .not like the garden . .there is a big difference between a garden and a field. A garden, a tree is planted, and as it grows, it bears much fruit year after year depending on weather conditions as to how much fruit is produced, but fruit is produced nonetheless. However with a field . . .you plant once . . .you get fruit once . . .but then you have to wait for the next season where the ground thaws, (heart softens) soil is cultivated and ferilized, seed planted . . and "then" depending on the weather as to how much of a crop you get . .but point is . .when dealing with fields, you are living in the second dimension of the temple life.
There is no rest. There is never-ending activity required in order for the harvest to be full. Harvest comes through labor when you are in a "field" mentality. But when you pursue the holy of holies .. the garden mentality, the scales of spiritual blindness fall from your eyes and you begin to see men as trees . . .where God plants his seed of life and year after year, without the laboring mind of man, fruit comes forth.
:cloud9: Hi, just passing thru and saw this post. I haven't read all the replies, so not stepping on anybody's toe's here, just sharing. This is one of my favorite passages, as it is what the Lord used to show me; 1) deliverance for Christians, and 2) there is no rapture as it is being taught in the churches. Praise be to God.
He opened my understanding one night 23 years ago when my Bible fell open to this passage, and after I read it, I was slain in the Spirit. I called the only friend of mine who was being raised up as I was at that time, and told her line by line, what had been opened to me. A few seconds later, I heard her go, "WOOO!" and her phone dropped, and I knew she had been slain as well. I said,(not expecting an answer); "That's exactly what happened to me, I wonder why He did that?!" And He said; "Because my Word is Spirit and you have just received pure Spirit."
Anyway, Matt. 13:36 Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field. 37 He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man; 38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one; 39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels. 40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world. 41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; 42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. 43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.
We know that the good seed is Christ which has been sown in us, ie. Christ in us the hope of glory, in the field, which is identified as the "world". The Word is personal to us, we are the world, Adam was taken from the dust of the earth/world, and he was put to sleep, but you cannot find where God ever woke him up. It is interesting to note that the Hebrew word for ankle, literally means, "the end of the world." And the Kingdom of God is within us, so we know He is talking about us.
This is because Satan who was commanded to eat/consume our dust, is in the earth realm, ie. his tares were planted in ALL OF US, while we/Adam have been asleep in the "dust". This is why all sin is common to man, or all sin is buried in man. We have the choice of whether or not to give it "life" ie. soulish expression, but it is very much there. In our walk, as we decrease so Christ in us can increase, He begins to remove the tares, which are that which offends and does iniquity, and cast them into the fire of the Holy Ghost to be consumed. The angels (which means messages or messengers) come to bring instruction/deliverance, that truly end this "world" of soulish dominion.
It is the same in content as if you put a lit candle under a bushel basket, and removed one stave of the basket at a time. First a little light comes through, and then as more staves are removed, a little more light, until finally the candle set upon a hill is not hid anymore. The tares/darkness are anti-Christ in two ways; 1) they are literally against, in the sense of next to, or covering Christ within us, and 2) they are counter to His nature. The righteous shining forth, is Christ in each one. Blessings...
Quote from: Cardinal on December 27, 2008, 03:48:32 AM
:cloud9: Hi, just passing thru and saw this post. I haven't read all the replies, so not stepping on anybody's toe's here, just sharing. This is one of my favorite passages, as it is what the Lord used to show me; 1) deliverance for Christians, and 2) there is no rapture as it is being taught in the churches. Praise be to God.
He opened my understanding one night 23 years ago when my Bible fell open to this passage, and after I read it, I was slain in the Spirit. I called the only friend of mine who was being raised up as I was at that time, and told her line by line, what had been opened to me. A few seconds later, I heard her go, "WOOO!" and her phone dropped, and I knew she had been slain as well. I said,(not expecting an answer); "That's exactly what happened to me, I wonder why He did that?!" And He said; "Because my Word is Spirit and you have just received pure Spirit."
Anyway, Matt. 13:36 Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field. 37 He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man; 38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one; 39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels. 40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world. 41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; 42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. 43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.
We know that the good seed is Christ which has been sown in us, ie. Christ in us the hope of glory, in the field, which is identified as the "world". The Word is personal to us, we are the world, Adam was taken from the dust of the earth/world, and he was put to sleep, but you cannot find where God ever woke him up. It is interesting to note that the Hebrew word for ankle, literally means, "the end of the world." And the Kingdom of God is within us, so we know He is talking about us.
This is because Satan who was commanded to eat/consume our dust, is in the earth realm, ie. his tares were planted in ALL OF US, while we/Adam have been asleep in the "dust". This is why all sin is common to man, or all sin is buried in man. We have the choice of whether or not to give it "life" ie. soulish expression, but it is very much there. In our walk, as we decrease so Christ in us can increase, He begins to remove the tares, which are that which offends and does iniquity, and cast them into the fire of the Holy Ghost to be consumed. The angels (which means messages or messengers) come to bring instruction/deliverance, that truly end this "world" of soulish dominion.
It is the same in content as if you put a lit candle under a bushel basket, and removed one stave of the basket at a time. First a little light comes through, and then as more staves are removed, a little more light, until finally the candle set upon a hill is not hid anymore. The tares/darkness are anti-Christ in two ways; 1) they are literally against, in the sense of next to, or covering Christ within us, and 2) they are counter to His nature. The righteous shining forth, is Christ in each one. Blessings...
Ahhhh ., . . a fresh breeze just went through . . . . can ya feel it??? :goodpost:
1. Recognizing Ourselves.
Are we tares or wheat?
Identify ourselves first!
The original question of this thread was :
if these aren't individual people, why does Jesus personify them?
Yes, Jesus personified them because they are individual people.
Jesus wants us to confirm our current beingness, whether we are tares or wheat, black or white.
Here are only two classifications, tares or wheat.
Not three i.e., 'tares', 'wheat' and 'the man tares and wheat within'.
So if we say we are the men with tares and wheat elements inside, we are missing the point.
We should not watch this scene, as a third party. We should be the scene itself.
If we are tares,
we cannot tell what is Christ from what is anti-Christ.
Under this circumstance, even Christ cannot do any good to us.
To blind man, even the light cannot do anything.
So we should not deceive ourselves
by saying that the living Word of God (the Christ, the Lord, the light)
will come to us to remove tares within us.
Even though that is true, but to tares its only a pie in the sky.
Because tares have no eyes at all to tell the Christ from anti-Christ.
2. Purification Process
The following purification process by Jesus Christ is only applicable
to those who have the eyes to recognize Him.
This is their harvest time in their faith life, which is mentioned in the parable.
The harvest time will come only to a person who realize himself as real tare.
When he realize himself as real tare, then he will have eyes to see Jesus Christ to follow.
And he, the real tare, now can associate with Jesus Christ who is the friend of sinners.
Jesus is waiting for this harvest time for each one of us.
Therefore, Jesus said in the parable "Let both grow together until the harvest"
The real tare will be born again as wheat in due course by Jesus.
So we also have to go through the process,
i.e., 'from tares to wheat' by recognizing ourselves as real tare.
Quote from: Cardinal on December 27, 2008, 03:48:32 AM
This is because Satan who was commanded to eat/consume our dust, is in the earth realm, ie. his tares were planted in ALL OF US, while we/Adam have been asleep in the "dust". This is why all sin is common to man, or all sin is buried in man. We have the choice of whether or not to give it "life" ie. soulish expression, but it is very much there. In our walk, as we decrease so Christ in us can increase, He begins to remove the tares, which are that which offends and does iniquity, and cast them into the fire of the Holy Ghost to be consumed. The angels (which means messages or messengers) come to bring instruction/deliverance, that truly end this "world" of soulish dominion.
70sevens,
You say that you are either a wheat or a tare.
You say tares can't know that they are tares because they have no eyes.
Then you say of the tares "When he realize himself as real tare, then he will have eyes to see Jesus Christ to follow."
This is a paradox. How can you realize you are a tare if you haven't eyes? This scenario seems complicated that you have drawn.
In reality it is simple. When Jesus spoke this parable he was speaking of men. Those men who trusted in the temple and Jerusalum for salvation experienced the weeping of knashing of teeth when it burned. Those men who trusted in Jesus, heeded his words and escaped.
In application to us now, we are the field and the seeds are words of God. Will we suffer great loss at the end of our age with weeping and knashing of teeth or will we yield a crop? The physical first then the spiritual.
In agreement with Sarah on this, I'd like to also at the thought of Paul's explanation of having this inner battle going on WITHIN him . . . "I know what I should do (wheat) but I don't do it (tare) and I know what I shouldn't do (wheat) but I go ahead and do it anyway (tare). Oh what a wretched man I am! Why? Because "I become what I behold" and if all I'm focusing on is my realm of flesh .. . that's all I'm ever going to see, death and destruction.
But Paul had a revelation "Thanks be to God . . here, read it for yourself :bigGrin:
14For we know that the law is spiritual: (good seed) but I am carnal (carnal seed) , sold under sin.
15For that which I do (tare) I allow not (wheat): for what I would, (wheat) that do I not; (tare) but what I hate,(wheat) that do I. (tare) see the patterns?
16If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.
17Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
18For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
19For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
20Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
21I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
22For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
23But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
24O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
25I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
For those who see themselves "in" Christ . . . you can not sin . . . it's your mind that tells you that you can and do . . .but the spirit isn't the one pointing that out . .it's the flesh . . .who told you that you were naked???
It sounds like the same result is atained no matter how you translate this parable. Either we must change from tare to wheat, or we must change our works from tares to wheat. The point is still that the bad will be burned away leaving the good. 1 Corinthians 3:14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. 1 Corinthians 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
Peace and Love
Quote from: Sarah on December 27, 2008, 06:59:54 PM
70sevens,
You say that you are either a wheat or a tare.
You say tares can't know that they are tares because they have no eyes.
Then you say of the tares "When he realize himself as real tare, then he will have eyes to see Jesus Christ to follow."
This is a paradox. How can you realize you are a tare if you haven't eyes? This scenario seems complicated that you have drawn.
Thank you for reading my post.
As for the paradox, that's why I differentiate 'real tare' from 'tare'.
For instance, the Pharisees are blind spiritually.
So they cannot follow Jesus, the Son of God, even though they believe in God.
Nevertheless, they think that they are not blind at all.
They are tares, not knowing they are. Do you agree?
However, there are tares who realize themselves as real tares.
Like the publican below:
[Lk 18:13]
And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven,
but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.
The publican here realized himself as real tare, so he now can listen to Jesus.
He reached the time of harvest, and eventually he will be born again by Jesus as wheat.
Pharisees and publican came to this world all as same tares.
But Pharisees did not realize themselves as tares, but publican did.
Jesus said to Pharisees :
[Jn 9:40-41]
40/ And some of the Pharisees which were with him heard these words,
and said unto him, Are we blind also?
41/ Jesus said unto them, If ye were blind, ye should have no sin:
but now ye say, We see; therefore your sin remaineth.
If Pharisees realized themselves as real tares (if you were blind),
then they could follow Jesus to be born again sinless (you should have no sin).
But they insisted they were no tares, so they couldnot follow Jesus and had to remain as tares.
The persons, including Pharisees, in the Bible do not mean those historical persons.
They are we.
Our faith start with tares (Pharisees), and when harvest time comes in our life,
we will be meeting Jesus and then enter into the Kingdom of God.
Quote from: 70sevens on December 28, 2008, 12:59:07 AM
Quote from: Sarah on December 27, 2008, 06:59:54 PM
70sevens,
You say that you are either a wheat or a tare.
You say tares can't know that they are tares because they have no eyes.
Then you say of the tares "When he realize himself as real tare, then he will have eyes to see Jesus Christ to follow."
This is a paradox. How can you realize you are a tare if you haven't eyes? This scenario seems complicated that you have drawn.
Thank you for reading my post.
As for the paradox, that's why I differentiate 'real tare' from 'tare'.
For instance, the Pharisees are blind spiritually.
So they cannot follow Jesus, the Son of God, even though they believe in God.
Nevertheless, they think that they are not blind at all.
They are tares, not knowing they are. Do you agree?
However, there are tares who realize themselves as real tares.
Like the publican below:
[Lk 18:13]
And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven,
but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.
The publican here realized himself as real tare, so he now can listen to Jesus.
He reached the time of harvest, and eventually he will be born again by Jesus as wheat.
Pharisees and publican came to this world all as same tares.
But Pharisees did not realize themselves as tares, but publican did.
Jesus said to Pharisees :
[Jn 9:40-41]
40/ And some of the Pharisees which were with him heard these words,
and said unto him, Are we blind also?
41/ Jesus said unto them, If ye were blind, ye should have no sin:
but now ye say, We see; therefore your sin remaineth.
If Pharisees realized themselves as real tares (if you were blind),
then they could follow Jesus to be born again sinless (you should have no sin).
But they insisted they were no tares, so they couldnot follow Jesus and had to remain as tares.
The persons, including Pharisees, in the Bible do not mean those historical persons.
They are we.
Our faith start with tares (Pharisees), and when harvest time comes in our life,
we will be meeting Jesus and then enter into the Kingdom of God.
MM. faith starting with the Tares...From Faith to Faith?....From Form to Reality ..From Death T Life .from Soul to Zoe Life, Darkness to Light, Bondage to Freedom,Blindnss to sight The list continues for Mine, :icon_flower:...well at least for now
QuoteThey are tares, not knowing they are. Do you agree?
Yes.
I fully understand the concept that "if the light in you is darkness, how great is that darkness"...referring to the religious who see no need for change. This is the worst state of blindness.
You seem to make the argument that all people are tares. Is this what you are saying when you say that publicans and Pharisees are tares? Or do you see the wheat as the 12, or the Jewish disciples?
Quote[The persons, including Pharisees, in the Bible do not mean those historical persons.
They are we.
Our faith start with tares (Pharisees), and when harvest time comes in our life,
we will be meeting Jesus and then enter into the Kingdom of God.
/quote]
I'm not sure how your analogy of changing from a tare to a wheat fits in with the parable. In the parable it appears that the tares are destroyed. But I do agree with the above statement in a different context (except for the part of Pharisees not being historical people).
1. All are tares
All human being are born to this world as tares, including Pharisees, publicans and us.
[Ro 3:10-12]
10/ As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: 11/ There is none that understandeth,
there is none that seeketh after God. 12/ They are all gone out of the way,
they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
All mankind are born sinners.
Don't misunderstand this statement as that we killed someone and/or stole something,
but we are sinners as we are.
I am not making a new argument, but it's a basics of Christianity.
[Ro 5:19]
For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners,
so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
At the time of parable spoken,
tares and wheat are as follows :
tares = servants of the householder = 12 disciples (and all mankind out there)
wheat = reapers = angels (= 12 disciples afterwards)*
*12 disciples will be born again as wheat at the cross and/or at Pentecost.
See what the apostles did after Pentecost.
They were preaching the gospel, which is harvesting wheat from tares as reapers/angels.
2. Adam's life should be Destroyed
Born-again means that one's old life is destroyed and new life begins.
Paul said :
[Ro 6:6]
Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him,
that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
Here old man (tare) is crucified and body of sin (old man) is destroyed.
This is what is happening at the time of harvest in the parable.
3. Pharisees
Do not be misunderstood.
I am not saying non-existence of Pharisees historically.
But the Scriptures are referring to the spiritual meaning of such.
For instance,
[Gal 4:24-26]
24/ Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai,
which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar. 25/ For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia,
and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.
26/ But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.
Here Paul do not translate Agar and Sara historically, but spiritually as the law and grace directly.
Same is true Pharisees.
Pharisees are the persons who have faith under the law, having self-righteousness.
If we are under the law having self-righteousness then we are Pharisees.
What else are we going to be?
We tend to think that we are not as bad as Pharisees, but we sometimes do the works of tares.
Sorry, if we are so, we are tares.
Because in wheat there will be no tare element at all.
It is quite natural that wheat contains no tare nature whatsoever.
That's why John said as follows :
[1Jn 3:9]
Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him:
and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
:cloud9: There is macrocosm and microcosm, ie. world view and personal view, to every scripture in there. So one is not wrong, just a different perspective depending on whether or not you are looking at the big picture, or looking a little closer to "home". Blessings...
Quote from: Cardinal on December 29, 2008, 05:11:01 PM
:cloud9: There is macrocosm and microcosm, ie. world view and personal view, to every scripture in there. So one is not wrong, just a different perspective depending on whether or not you are looking at the big picture, or looking a little closer to "home". Blessings...
Kinda Like that adage too :icon_flower: :cloud9:
well said Card! my sentiments exactly .. just dont know them ''macro , micro ''words though lol
I love it too Taff :HeartThrob:
1. Personal view and World view are same in case....
Example,
Peter said:
"I ate and got full". This is personal view.
The Scriptures says :
All men who eat will get full. This is world view.
To Peter, his personal view is the world view. No difference.
In fact, no one can express world view, but personal view.
Nevertheless, when he experienced it, his personal view would be world view.
If we think deeply, all the scriptures, which we may think world view, are,
in fact, personal view of each authors.
2. Personal view and World view will be different in case...
However, suppose, one who did not eat,
but he read the Scriptures and knew that "All men who eat will get full."
And he preaches the world view to others.
This case, his personal view does not match the world view.
What he is preaching is a lie and hypocrisy.
Eventually he will die, not because of lie and hypocrisy, but because of hunger.
Such misguided concept of world view will massacre the spirits of many.
We should have personal view through experience,
which would be world view at the same time.
Have we eaten really?
Could be wrong 007,..Wheres Moneypenny :icon_flower:
Roger Moore really isnt James Bond, Sean Connery Is :laughing7: or is it Timothy Dalton :icon_king:
Maybe,...... :dontknow: Could it be That the comment was from ONES personal perspective, In how they view what they SEE...
I kinda got from what was said...An OUTWARD Man View, Then the INNER man perspective. :icon_flower:
Quote from: Nathan link=topic=3763.msg43669#msg43669/quote]
Ahhhh ., . . a fresh breeze just went through . . . . can ya feel it??? :goodpost:
Amen!
Quote from: 70sevens on December 30, 2008, 01:29:35 AM
1. Personal view and World view are same in case....
Example,
Peter said:
"I ate and got full". This is personal view.
The Scriptures says :
All men who eat will get full. This is world view.
To Peter, his personal view is the world view. No difference.
In fact, no one can express world view, but personal view.
Nevertheless, when he experienced it, his personal view would be world view.
If we think deeply, all the scriptures, which we may think world view, are,
in fact, personal view of each authors.
2. Personal view and World view will be different in case...
However, suppose, one who did not eat,
but he read the Scriptures and knew that "All men who eat will get full."
And he preaches the world view to others.
This case, his personal view does not match the world view.
What he is preaching is a lie and hypocrisy.
Eventually he will die, not because of lie and hypocrisy, but because of hunger.
Such misguided concept of world view will massacre the spirits of many.
We should have personal view through experience,
which would be world view at the same time.
Have we eaten really?
World view says . . .when ya drink a glass of water . .it'll quench your thirst . .but you'll get thirsty again eventually.
Personal view . . . God uses natural (world view) things to reveal spiritual (inner/ personal) truth. The water is an example of how Christ and the Spirit of life will quench your every desire . .but in the internal view . . .it's not natural water that I'm desiring . . .it's the spiritual water.
Natural will never comprehend spiritual as it doesn't have the capacity. It's like trying to play a baseball game using football rules. It just won't fit. So for me . . . they're not "supposed" to match up. If they do . .something is spiritually wrong. I don't want to glean off the mind of another man because it's already clear, the mind of man can't comprehend the mind of God. I want to become as an eagle . . .and glean off the carcass, the body of Christ . . .which is . . .each of us when we're spiritually discerning and sharing what it is we're seeing so that all will benefit from our experience that we then may all grow and mature into the deeper things of the Spirit and leave the natural things to the spiritually dead.
Is it perhaps that we are talking about two different parables as if they are expressing the same idea?
The parable of the wheat and the tares expresses a different idea totally than does the teaching of the wheat and chaff.
Chaff is the outer husk of the wheat which needs to be separated, it is no good for use. That to me everyone has and will be burned up in the fire of Christ's consuming presence in this life.
Tares, on the other hand, are a false wheat, totally separate from real wheat, and are those who look and act like believers but are not. Believers are not tares. Those tares will be burned up, also in the presence of the Lord, but in that burning they themselves will come to know Him.
I admit that I have not read through every single post here on this topic but it just appeared to me that these twos ideas were being spoken of as synonymous. If that's not the case, then just ignore what I just wrote. :laughing7:
Ron
Quote from: gregoryfl on January 25, 2009, 05:53:34 PM
Is it perhaps that we are talking about two different parables as if they are expressing the same idea?
The parable of the wheat and the tares expresses a different idea totally than does the teaching of the wheat and chaff.
Chaff is the outer husk of the wheat which needs to be separated, it is no good for use. That to me everyone has and will be burned up in the fire of Christ's consuming presence in this life.
Tares, on the other hand, are a false wheat, totally separate from real wheat, and are those who look and act like believers but are not. Believers are not tares. Those tares will be burned up, also in the presence of the Lord, but in that burning they themselves will come to know Him.
I admit that I have not read through every single post here on this topic but it just appeared to me that these twos ideas were being spoken of as synonymous. If that's not the case, then just ignore what I just wrote. :laughing7:
Ron
I think you have a good point Ron. I see it as two separate parables.
While talking about wheat and tares,
I guess, folks here are having a fundamental oversight
that tares do not know themseves being tares.
Therefore, if we think we are real belivers, i.e., wheat,
then how can we know that?
What if we are tares?
Nobody goes to hell, knowing he is going there.
Whoever goes to hell, is going there without knowing it.
What makes you think the tares don't know they are tares?
I think many tares know of themselfs they are tares.
But many that think they are wheat are actually tares.
I don't know the verse but is like this: Go away I have never known you.
Quote from: pneuma on December 12, 2008, 05:26:45 PM
QuotePnuema may be about later to give a More technical explaination
:laughing7: you explained it just fine bro, but I will give more on the BREATH OF LIFE.
Breath of life
Genesis 2:7
7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
Many believe that this is speaking of how natural man was created.
They believe that God took dust from the ground, breathed His spirit into the dust and that this union of dust and spirit is the make up of man who is then called a living soul.
But is that what God said?
Let's look closely at this scripture.
And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground.
It says plainly here that God formed MAN of the dust of the ground before He breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and before MAN became a living soul.
Now we know that man is made up of spirit, soul and body. 1 Thessalonians 5:23
23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
This man of dust already had a spirit, soul and body, for is not man made up of spirit, soul and body?
And if this man of dust spoken of here did not already have a spirit, soul and body can it be rightly called man?
Cannot we understand by this that man was already created? And that God is doing something other then creating a natural man here?
God is not creating a natural man here as in the creation of the first man Adam, but He is shaping man to be in His image and likeness here.
We read in Genesis 1:26-27
26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. 27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
The word created here comes from the Hebrew word bara and formed from Genesis 2:7 is the Hebrew word yatsar.
So why does the scriptures use two different words if they are both dealing with the creation of man?
Because the man being formed in Genesis 2:7 finds his fulfillment in Gen.1:26-27 in being created in the image and likeness of God.
Yatsar comes with the weight of something being squeezed into shape as a potter molding the clay.
Genesis 2:7 is telling us the process of how we are being formed into the image and likeness of God, it is not telling us how natural man was created, but it is telling us how the spiritual man is being created.
Genesis 2:7
7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
Now we have always read this scripture (me included) as to how MAN was originally created. And I believe we have been understanding it all wrong.
This is not speaking about how man was originally created, but rather it is speaking of how God is making the MAN he originally created into His image and likeness.
Now when God formed MAN He formed MAN from the dust of the ground.
Now this MAN God formed from the dust of the ground already had a spirit, soul, and body. He is the flesh man or the old man or the man of sin, a living creature/beast man that lives unto itself, this is that MAN we are/were before God breathes the breath of life unto MAN.
Now Gods breath is the brimstone (Is.30:33) spoken of in the second death and here it is called the BREATH OF LIFE. Now why would that which is seen as part of the make up of the second death be called the breath of life?
To understand why a part of the second death is called the breath of life let's look at the meaning of the word BREATH.
It comes from the Hebrew word n\eshamah which is rooted in the Hebrew word nasham which means to destroy but also carries the weight of a woman in travail.
When God breathed the BREATH OF LIFE unto MAN it was for the destruction of the MAN that he was by birthing in the MAN of dust Jesus Christ.
It is because of this MAN became a living soul.
Now living soul and living creature come from the same Hebrew word nephesh.
The MAN of dust was a living creature/nephesh, living its own life until the BREATH OF LIFE was breathed upon him. Once the BREATH OF LIFE which is the birth/manifestation of Jesus Christ in the MAN of dust, MAN became a living soul/nephesh or a new creature in Christ.
Not finished reading the thread yet, but just has to say AMEN to this post!!
AMEN!!!I remember well the day I suddenly realized that a soul (nephesh) is:
"
a breathing creature". :declare:
But it is not until God sends forth HIS SPIRIT that men are "created" in His image and after His likeness.
Psa 104:30
Thou sendest forth thy spirit, they are created: and
thou renewest the face of the earth.
Psa 102:18
This shall be written for the generation to come: and the people which shall be created shall praise the LORD.
Quote from: Taffy on December 12, 2008, 01:28:49 PM
Hi 70s :icon_flower:
weve talked before , other forums too., Also, Hi Kim, thanks fo rgetting back and sharing some, for mine,70s pretty much summed it up in what I was going to reply. :icon_flower:
Indeed, The flesh is our Heart and Mind, the seat of our emotions,the enmity,TO be CANAL(FLESH) MINDED IS death, NOT our natural Body, which can confuse when reading scrips when paul states "you are spirit NOT Flesh."
This is the Tares ( balck but look like wheat) which are Burnt Up and Destroyed ,been saying this for ages, Christ Often Uses the Pharisees of the Day to Emphasize His POINT,...so it can be seen TWO fold, as a Type of Folk, those under LAW, which is equal also to the Flesh.
These are all the Same, the same meassage ALL through scripture, repititon is a Great way To learn, and us parents never thought it "first" he ha.
Flesh v Spirit
Law v Grace and Truth
Bondage v Freedom
Old C v New C
Esau v Jacob
Cain v Abel\Seth( appointed )
Child\slave \babe v Son or Heir
Old Jerusalem v New Jerusalem
Woman V Mother( ever Notice Christ never calls His Natural Mother, But Woman
Form v Reality
False Gold v GOLD which has been Tried by fire=Truth
Goliath v David
Corruptable v incorruption
Wisdom Beneath v Wisdom above.
5 Virgins no oil v 5 virgin with oil.
The sea below V the sea above ,known as the Heavens.
Josephs Folk v Joseph.
Old israel v New Israel.
Circumcision v circumcison of the Haert,
Old Man V New Man
Darkness v light
Night v Day
Crooked v Straight
Blind v Sight
Lame v Walk
Tof G&E V Tof L
etc
and the list goes On..
:icon_flower:
I like the way you divide things. :thumbsup:
(that list looks a little bit familiar.... I see it's growing.... :grin:)
Quote from: Pneuma
The MAN of dust was a living creature/nephesh, living its own life until the BREATH OF LIFE was breathed upon him. Once the BREATH OF LIFE which is the birth/manifestation of Jesus Christ in the MAN of dust, MAN became a living soul/nephesh or a new creature in Christ.
Pneuma,
Don't know if you still come around or read on here but I just wanted to tell you that was an awesome post. :thumbsup: I learned something I never thought of before. :bgdance:
CHB
1. Molly
The sinners do not know they are sinners.
They think they are the righteous all the way, not knowing they are not.
[Jn 16:2]
They shall put you out of the synagogues:
yea, the time cometh, that whosoever killeth you will think that he doeth God service.
[Lk 23:34]
Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do.
And they parted his raiment, and cast lots.
Quote from: Molly on January 25, 2009, 08:59:03 PM
What makes you think the tares don't know they are tares?
Now, you tell me
what makes you think that you are wheat or tare whatever?
2. WhiteWings
The scriptures state the truth and true nature of the things always.
So, your statements below are self-contrdictory.
"
I think many tares know of themselfs they are tares.
But many that think they are wheat are actually tares.
"
If tares know themselves, they know.
If tares do not know themselves, they do not know.
Do not mix up two together.
Choose one!
Black is black.
White is white.
Black is white???
It's a chaotic statement.
Please review what you are saying.
Quote from: WhiteWings on January 25, 2009, 09:08:48 PM
I think many tares know of themselfs they are tares.
But many that think they are wheat are actually tares.
I don't know the verse but is like this: Go away I have never known you.
Quote from: 70sevens on January 26, 2009, 04:14:57 AM
1. Molly
The sinners do not know they are sinners.
They think they are the righteous all the way, not knowing they are not.
I'm a sinner and I know that.
The more I understand from the Bible the more I know I'm on the wrong side of the line.
QuoteQuote from: Molly on January 25, 2009, 08:59:03 PM
What makes you think the tares don't know they are tares?
Now, you tell me
what makes you think that you are wheat or tare whatever?
Suppose I know the Bible and I've done some killing and stealing.
For me it would be clear I'm a tare.
Quote2. WhiteWings
The scriptures state the truth and true nature of the things always.
So, your statements below are self-contrdictory.
"
Not how I look at it.
Quote"
I think many tares know of themselfs they are tares.
But many that think they are wheat are actually tares.
If tares know themselves, they know.
If tares do not know themselves, they do not know.
Do not mix up two together.
Choose one!
2 situations. 2 choices.
I'll explain.
Some people know they are tares. Again the example of the person that kills and steals.
Some people think they live their lives in a good way. (weat) But when judged they are classified as tares.
(go away I never knew you)
QuoteBlack is black.
White is white.
Black is white???
It's a chaotic statement.
Nope it's just chaotic reading...
WW, just a question for you . . .
You've admitted in past posts that you're atheist and here you state that you know you're on the wrong side of the fence so to speak when concerning your salvation status . . . my question is, when you see yourself as a sinner, are you saying this is how the Bible portrays you? Or are you saying that you realize that you are?
If the latter be the case, aren't you interested in changing that status?
I know it's easy to misread things, but for me, you're coming across as "I know I'm a sinner and I'm OK with that. . ."
And I think I do see where your coming from with the black and white analogy. If people are tares, those that are tares . .and see themselves as tares . . .either don't care so they don't change . .or they see how successful the religious people are at loving them . . .(cynically so) and they know they don't want that either, so they still don't change.
Usually, when one realizes they have come up short, they make the decision to find the means to make up the difference. There are many different scenerios really. Some rebel against the plumb line, some just don't care, and yet others care, but don't want to make the effort . .and lastly, there are those who are truly desiring to change through the conviction of the Spirit in their hearts.
"If" people are the tares . .then there would have to be some way to transform the tares into wheat . .otherwise . . .we can't consider ourselves URists. So even though I've commented about people being tares, that was for the benefit of the previous conversation. But there is no indication in any of the tare/wheat parables where the tares are transformed into wheat . .they are simply separated from the wheat and destroyed . . .which leads me back to my original thought on the matter that wheat and tares is the godly and ungodly natures within us.
In these last days, doesn't every man have a conscience?
Thus, even the sociopath knows the difference between right and wrong; he just doesn't care.
I've seen children as young as 2 and 3 who know the difference between right and wrong.
So, something would have to happen to them after that to cause them to want to choose wrong.
And, there are people who are hard at work destroying children for this purpose.
But, when a man does what is wrong--his conscience pipes up and eats at him, burning him in God's fire.
Quote from: Nathan on January 26, 2009, 06:18:57 PM
WW, just a question for you . . .
You've admitted in past posts that you're atheist and here you state that you know you're on the wrong side of the fence so to speak when concerning your salvation status . . . my question is, when you see yourself as a sinner, are you saying this is how the Bible portrays you? Or are you saying that you realize that you are?
I don't feel myself a sinner. But according to the Bible I am. I simply don't see harm in some things that the Bible sees as sin. Including some of the deadly sins.
QuoteIf the latter be the case, aren't you interested in changing that status?
Questions getting harder. Answer: Yes, but my drive is low.
QuoteI know it's easy to misread things, but for me, you're coming across as "I know I'm a sinner and I'm OK with that. . ."
Almost right. More like: "I know I'm a sinner and I'm not really worried with that. . ."
To be honest somehow I don't really know the answers to the above 2 questions. Weird but true.
QuoteAnd I think I do see where your coming from with the black and white analogy. If people are tares, those that are tares . .and see themselves as tares . . .either don't care so they don't change . .or they see how successful the religious people are at loving them . . .(cynically so) and they know they don't want that either, so they still don't change.
More grey. But yes I often tend to look at things black or white.
Basicly I'm like: I always pay back.
If someone does something negative to me I enjoy giving it back in tenfold.
But if people help me I won't forget either and pay back whatever I can.
Then the main question for me is: Am I part of evolution or should I thank God?
I know your answer. But I'm not at that point. I'm looking. I'm serious on this board. I'm not here to secretly laugh at Bible people.
If I had real evidence God gave me life. (a rather good one I might add) then it would be easier to "payback"
Yep, I know that's works etc etc. But you know; nothing comes free.
Biblically seen nonsense. But not in my daily life.
QuoteUsually, when one realizes they have come up short, they make the decision to find the means to make up the difference. There are many different scenerios really. Some rebel against the plumb line, some just don't care, and yet others care, but don't want to make the effort . .and lastly, there are those who are truly desiring to change through the conviction of the Spirit in their hearts.
I'm somewhere in the blue part.
Quote"If" people are the tares . .then there would have to be some way to transform the tares into wheat . .otherwise . . .we can't consider ourselves URists.
If it comes from within it hasn't started yet. Same if it's an outside force.
QuoteSo even though I've commented about people being tares, that was for the benefit of the previous conversation. But there is no indication in any of the tare/wheat parables where the tares are transformed into wheat . .they are simply separated from the wheat and destroyed . . .which leads me back to my original thought on the matter that wheat and tares is the godly and ungodly natures within us.
That almost sounds like all are equal. I don't wanna sit in the seat of God but history to me shows some people lean very close to 100% tare.
End of confession.
Signed,
WhiteWings :laughing7:
WhiteWing------------------------
I'm a sinner and I know that.
The more I understand from the Bible the more I know I'm on the wrong side of the line.
---------------------------------
According to the Bible, you are not a sinner.
If you really realized you are a sinner, you would not stay in the current status.
I guess this issue was dealt somehow in the dialoges with Nathan and yourself.
When you come to an end of your tether, pary to God.
Only at that time you will realize that your are a sinner who has been apart from God.
Then God will send you Jesus, the friend of the sinners.
From that time on, Jesus will lead you to the heaven.
Until then, let us live each way.
Millions of words at this stage will not work.
WhiteWing------------------------
situations. 2 choices.
I'll explain.
Some people know they are tares. Again the example of the person that kills and steals.
Some people think they live their lives in a good way. (weat) But when judged they are classified as tares.
(go away I never knew you)
------------------------------------
Do be misunderstood.
people are tares itself.
First,
If some tares know they are tares,
Then other tares do not know they are tares?
All tares are having same nature.
If the natures are different, they are not tares anymore.
Tare is tare.
This is the meaning of "black is black, white is white."
Second,
Some tares think they are wheat, but classified as tares later.
What made them think that they were wheat?
Did they forget that they killed someone and stole someting due to poor memory?
Quote from: 70sevens on January 27, 2009, 01:49:44 AM
WhiteWing------------------------
I'm a sinner and I know that.
The more I understand from the Bible the more I know I'm on the wrong side of the line.
---------------------------------
According to the Bible, you are not a sinner.
If you really realized you are a sinner, you would not stay in the current status.
I guess this issue was dealt somehow in the dialoges with Nathan and yourself.
Maybe Nathan did explain/say it. Likely 100% Biblically true. But that's not how it feels to me.
I see the part of staying a sinner like this:
At new years eve many people promise: I stop smoking. I eat health food. I'll work out more. etc.
They all know that are good things. Then ask them on February 1st how they. They still are at their old unhealty life.
They still agree their lifestyle is bad for their health. They have plenty excuses why they didn't start that healty life.
I'm one of those persons. But my new years eve promise is to follow the guidelines of the Bible.....
QuoteWhen you come to an end of your tether, pary to God.
Only at that time you will realize that your are a sinner who has been apart from God.
Then God will send you Jesus, the friend of the sinners.
From that time on, Jesus will lead you to the heaven.
Until then, let us live each way.
Millions of words at this stage will not work.
I hope I understand the blue words....
I'm not. I've never been depressed. My life is one big laugh. (in a positive way)
And even if I would be depressed on the edge of suisidal I would not ask for help.
Especially if I at that point understand I did wrong to God my whole life.
I believe in reap what you sow. So I won't beg for a bail out from God...
QuoteWhiteWing------------------------
situations. 2 choices.
I'll explain.
Some people know they are tares. Again the example of the person that kills and steals.
Some people think they live their lives in a good way. (weat) But when judged they are classified as tares.
(go away I never knew you)
------------------------------------
Do be misunderstood.
people are tares itself.
First,
If some tares know they are tares,
Then other tares do not know they are tares?
Correct.
For example some people pray for forgiveness. They know they are tares that need forgivenes.
Others are tares and they don't know. For example because they live to standards of other religions.
Or they are atheists that never broke the laws of the country they live in. Where I live there are no laws against adultery. It may not break a country law but it surely breaks God law.
QuoteAll tares are having same nature.
If the natures are different, they are not tares anymore.
Tare is tare.
This is the meaning of "black is black, white is white."
Sorry I don't understand your answer. Or don't agree with it.
"You shall not steal" I'm very aware when I steal something. Doesn't that make me a knowing wheat?
QuoteSecond,
Some tares think they are wheat, but classified as tares later.
What made them think that they were wheat?
Did they forget that they killed someone and stole someting due to poor memory?
Maybe they did. Or they think it was forgiven by praying.
Or some people may for some reason think they are at the level of Jesus.
Isn't that what the verse "Go away I never knew you." means?
Quote from: CHB on January 26, 2009, 12:24:16 AM
Quote from: Pneuma
The MAN of dust was a living creature/nephesh, living its own life until the BREATH OF LIFE was breathed upon him. Once the BREATH OF LIFE which is the birth/manifestation of Jesus Christ in the MAN of dust, MAN became a living soul/nephesh or a new creature in Christ.
Pneuma,
Don't know if you still come around or read on here but I just wanted to tell you that was an awesome post. :thumbsup: I learned something I never thought of before. :bgdance:
CHB
Hi sis, don't spend much time on the net these days as I went back to college and they keep me very busy, but was gald to see that what the Lord gave me planted a seed in you.
God bless
In the parable or illustration of the ' wheat and weeds', Jesus said that "the kingdom of the heavens has become like a man that sowed fine seed in his field. While men were sleeping, his enemy came and oversowed weeds in among the wheat, and left. When the blade sprouted and produced fruit, then the weeds appeared also."(Matt 13:24-26) What did Jesus mean by this illustration ? That he, as the "man that sowed fine seed in his field", established Christianity during his ministry of 29-33 C.E., with the holy spirit being poured out upon the initial ones on the day of Pentecost.(Acts 2:1-4)
However, Jesus said in the illustration that "when the (wheat) blade sprouted and produced fruit, then the weeds appeared also."(Matt 13:26) There was now a growing of the "wheat and weeds" together. The slaves ask: "Master, did you not sow fine seed in your field? How, then, does it come to have weeds ?'. The "Master" replies: "'An enemy, a man, did this.' (Matt 13:27,28) The slaves now ask: "'Do you want us, then, to go out and collect them?', with the "Master" telling his slaves: "No; that by no chance, while collecting the weeds, you uproot the wheat with them. Let both grow together until the harvest; and in the harvest season I will tell the reapers, First collect the weeds and bind them in bundles to burn them up, then go to gathering the wheat into my storehouse.'"(Matt 13:29,30)
Who is "the enemy" ? Jesus identifies him as Satan the Devil, who "came and oversown weeds".(Matt 13:39) Yet what are the "weeds" ? These "weeds" are counterfeit Christians that have been placed or "oversowed" among the "wheat" by Satan. When did this begin to happen ? "While men were sleeping", or following the death of the apostles, with the apostle John most likely having died in about 100 C.E. Even while the apostles were alive, counterfeit Christians were already at work. The apostle Paul told the "elders" from Ephesus, that "I know that after my going away oppressive wolves will enter in among you and will not treat the flock with tenderness, and from among you yourselves men will rise and speak twisted things to draw away the disciples after themselves."(Acts 20:29,30)
Thus, there were those that ' rose and spoke twisted things' that drew "draw away the disciples after themselves". These therefore became apostates, which literally means "stand away from"(Greek a·po·sta·si´a), and has the sense of "desertion, abandonment or rebellion." (Ac 21:21) The apostle John, in about 96 C.E., wrote: "Young children, it is the last hour, and, just as you have heard that antichrist is coming, even now there have come to be many antichrists; from which fact we gain the knowledge that it is the last hour."(1 John 2:18) Hence, even at that "last hour", true Christianity was being overtaken by the "antichrists"(meaning "against [or instead of] Christ)", "weeds", counterfeit Christians.
Hence, within a period of less than 300 years from the time that Jesus established the Christian congregation, the wheat field of Christianity had been overrun with the "weeds" of apostate antichrists to the point where Constantine the Great (himself incriminated in the murder of no less than seven close friends and relatives) figured in events that led to the development of a state religion disguised as "Christianity", with the Council of Nicaea in 325 C.E.
A prophesy by Isaiah directs one attention that true Christianity, though infiltrated with "weeds" during the course of over 1900 years, from the days of the apostles, would once again be reestablished in the "final part of the days", our time period. Isaiah was inspired to write: "it shall come to pass in the latter days, that the mountain of Jehovah's house shall be established on the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it. And many peoples shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of Jehovah, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of Jehovah from Jerusalem. And he will judge between the nations, and will decide concerning many peoples; and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning-hooks; nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more."(Isaiah 2:2-4, American Standard Version)
During the "latter days", our time period, angels will ' collect the weeds and burn them with fire ', these to be destroyed (Matt 13:39,40), during which time "the righteous ones will shine as brightly as the sun in the kingdom of their Father."(Matt 13:43) Hence, true Christianity would once again flourish in these "latter days", even though "weeds", counterfeit Christians are still abounding.