Matthew 13 -- Wheat & Tares

[Taffy]

I'm still feeling confused about this.  I'm just . . . stuck.  I don't know.  It's bothering me.   :sigh:

The tares are personified.  It's hard to get around feeling like they're actual people.

So . . . the fire in this passage must not be something that wholly destroys people, it's a passage that proves annihilationism, or I'm all wet in thinking that the tares are some sort of people and it's a commentary on good vs. evil.  Or maybe it's a passage that talks about destruction awaiting those who fail to convert to the New Covenant.  Can anyone here make a coherent argument for any of these?

Thanks again.

Think Two fold, the Pharisees personify the FLESH( soul) of all men , so yes ,they are TYPE of Folk, But  it also speaks of the flesh of all men,...means BOTH, the destruction of the Flesh so CHRIST can be revealed.

[Kimberlaina]

Think Two fold, the Pharisees personify the FLESH( soul) of all men , so yes ,they are TYPE of Folk, But  it also speaks of the flesh of all men,...means BOTH, the destruction of the Flesh so CHRIST can be revealed.

Ok, Taffy, so are you saying that both the Pharisees and the tares are symbols or metaphors for "fleshly man" who will be destroyed, but that this isn't describing the destruction of individuals in their entirety?  (I'm having a hard time articulating this.)  In order to discuss flesh vs. spirit, Jesus had to show his disciples and later readers of Scripture what fleshly men look like so that we'd understand the distinction.  The parable of the wheat and the tares emphasizes that we can tell the difference between flesh and spirit.  However, how can we be certain that this passage doesn't specifically describe the annihilation (or worse) of "fleshly" men, personified by the tares and the Pharisees?  Individual plant organisms get annihilated, so how can we conclude that this doesn't happen to people?  :JCThink:

Thanks again~  :HeartThrob:

Oh, btw, I should warn those conversing with me that I tend to be convinced of things very slowly.  So I hope you don't think I'm  :bdh: -- please be patient with me!

[Taffy]

Think Two fold, the Pharisees personify the FLESH( soul) of all men , so yes ,they are TYPE of Folk, But  it also speaks of the flesh of all men,...means BOTH, the destruction of the Flesh so CHRIST can be revealed.

Ok, Taffy, so are you saying that both the Pharisees and the tares are symbols or metaphors for "fleshly man" who will be destroyed, but that this isn't describing the destruction of individuals in their entirety?  (I'm having a hard time articulating this.)  In order to discuss flesh vs. spirit, Jesus had to show his disciples and later readers of Scripture what fleshly men look like so that we'd understand the distinction.  The parable of the wheat and the tares emphasizes that we can tell the difference between flesh and spirit.  However, how can we be certain that this passage doesn't specifically describe the annihilation (or worse) of "fleshly" men, personified by the tares and the Pharisees?  Individual plant organisms get annihilated, so how can we conclude that this doesn't happen to people?  :JCThink:

Thanks again~  :HeartThrob:

Oh, btw, I should warn those conversing with me that I tend to be convinced of things very slowly.  So I hope you don't think I'm  :bdh: -- please be patient with me!

Hi Kim

No  worries  in being slowly convinced... gee I got a Major in it.... :icon_flower:


so, what do you SEE as Flesh? then , what do you SEE as SPIRIT?

shall we move from there? :icon_flower:

[pneuma]

I've been studying the book of Matthew for the first time from a UR viewpoint and of course I'm hung up on the wheat and the tares.  I've searched the threads discussing this on Tentmaker and I'm still having trouble reconciling this passage.  I know that many people here believe that the wheat is the spiritual man and the tares are the carnal man, but I have a lingering question despite reading all of these explanations -- if these aren't individual people, why does Jesus personify them?  Why not just let them stand for generic good and evil?

Hi Kim, like Taffy is see this in an inward application, the wheat and the tares are produced from the seed from he who planted them, thus the tares are the seeds/thoughts/children/ of the devil and the wheat the seeds/thoughts/children of God, and God will seperate the seeds/thoughts/children of the devil from His seed/thoughts/children.

That said even if we take it as applying to man and it can be taken that way also and some men go into the fire, just remember the fire is used to correct man and to remove all the chaff that man who is in the fire can enter within the gates of the city.

The only reason imo people have a problem with this scripture is that they still look at the fire from an ET perspective and not from it corrective perspective. Once it get settled in thier own mind that Gods judgments are ALL CORRECTIVE judgment the broblem that God is going to cast people into the lake of fire disappears.

[alihaymeg]

Individual plant organisms get annihilated, so how can we conclude that this doesn't happen to people?

Plants don't have an eternal soul or spirit. I have seen some on here saying that the soul is also destroyed at death, but I don't see any concrete proof of that. Our eternal souls are what make up our individuality. If that is destroyed then we cease to exist and there would be no point to being here in the first place.

[Zeek]

2Co 10:5  Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;

Mat 3:10  And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

Gal 4:30  Nevertheless what saith the Scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.

1Co 13:8  Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.

Heb 8:13  In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

[rosered]

  soul death ?

Mar 14:34 And  says   unto them , My  soul 5590 is   exceeding sorrowful  unto death 2288:

tarry ye/you wait   here , and  watch  .


Jam 5:20 Let  him  know that  he which converts 1994 the sinner 268 from  the error 4106 of his  way  shall save 4982  a soul 5590psychē
from  death 2288thanatos
, and  shall hide a multitude 4128 of sins 266. hamartia

there is alot of soul death in the old testament and there is soul salvation  Peter explains it  in the new
  David saw corruption /decay
  to me soul death is seperation from God  making outer darkness / no knowledge wisdom ,understanding strength  the key point to what it is /means
we cannot excuse it because it is spoken of in the scriptures as soul death /salvation -saving from what ?
  that is why the Cross of Jesus Christ is very powerful and signifigant  EVENT  to me anyways

Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.


Mat 27:51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;


Mat 27:52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,


Mat 27:53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.


  the dead of  many souls did rise up out of the body of death /tomb 

  Were they dead to God  before Christ did this thing ?

[Taffy]

  soul death ?

Mar 14:34 And  says   unto them , My  soul 5590 is   exceeding sorrowful  unto death 2288:

tarry ye/you wait   here , and  watch  .


Jam 5:20 Let  him  know that  he which converts 1994 the sinner 268 from  the error 4106 of his  way  shall save 4982  a soul 5590psychē
from  death 2288thanatos
, and  shall hide a multitude 4128 of sins 266. hamartia

there is alot of soul death in the old testament and there is soul salvation  Peter explains it  in the new
  David saw corruption /decay
  to me soul death is seperation from God  making outer darkness / no knowledge wisdom ,understanding strength  the key point to what it is /means
we cannot excuse it because it is spoken of in the scriptures as soul death /salvation -saving from what ?
  that is why the Cross of Jesus Christ is very powerful and signifigant  EVENT  to me anyways

Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.


Mat 27:51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;


Mat 27:52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,


Mat 27:53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.


  the dead of  many souls did rise up out of the body of death /tomb 

  Were they dead to God  before Christ did this thing ?

All souls OF MEN are dead men waliking and talking from the Grave , for the DEAD "KNOW NOTHING", death is Known as SLEEP,  in the DARKNESS of NIGHT man sleeps, AWAKE from DARKNESS and SLEEP NO MORE

Psa 121:4 Behold, he that keepeth Israel shall neither slumber nor sleep.

Pro 6:9 How long wilt thou sleep, O sluggard? when wilt thou arise out of thy sleep? 

Pro 20:13 Love not sleep, lest thou come to poverty; open thine eyes, [and] thou shalt be satisfied with bread. 

Rom 13:11 And that, knowing the time, that now [it is] high time to awake out of sleep: for now [is] our salvation nearer than when we believed

1Cr 11:27 Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink [this] cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord.


1Cr 11:28 But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of [that] bread, and drink of [that] cup.


1Cr 11:29 For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body.


1Cr 11:30 For this cause many [are] weak and sickly among you, and many sleep.


1Cr 11:31 For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged

[rosered]

  soul death ?

Mar 14:34 And  says   unto them , My  soul 5590 is   exceeding sorrowful  unto death 2288:

tarry ye/you wait   here , and  watch  .


Jam 5:20 Let  him  know that  he which converts 1994 the sinner 268 from  the error 4106 of his  way  shall save 4982  a soul 5590psychē
from  death 2288thanatos
, and  shall hide a multitude 4128 of sins 266. hamartia

there is alot of soul death in the old testament and there is soul salvation  Peter explains it  in the new
  David saw corruption /decay
  to me soul death is seperation from God  making outer darkness / no knowledge wisdom ,understanding strength  the key point to what it is /means
we cannot excuse it because it is spoken of in the scriptures as soul death /salvation -saving from what ?
  that is why the Cross of Jesus Christ is very powerful and signifigant  EVENT  to me anyways

Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.


Mat 27:51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;


Mat 27:52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,


Mat 27:53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.


  the dead of  many souls did rise up out of the body of death /tomb 

  Were they dead to God  before Christ did this thing ?

All souls OF MEN are dead men waliking and talking from the Grave , for the DEAD "KNOW NOTHING", death is Known as SLEEP,  in the DARKNESS of NIGHT man sleeps, AWAKE from DARKNESS and SLEEP NO MORE

Psa 121:4 Behold, he that keepeth Israel shall neither slumber nor sleep.

Pro 6:9 How long wilt thou sleep, O sluggard? when wilt thou arise out of thy sleep? 

Pro 20:13 Love not sleep, lest thou come to poverty; open thine eyes, [and] thou shalt be satisfied with bread. 

Rom 13:11 And that, knowing the time, that now [it is] high time to awake out of sleep: for now [is] our salvation nearer than when we believed

1Cr 11:27 Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink [this] cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord.


1Cr 11:28 But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of [that] bread, and drink of [that] cup.


1Cr 11:29 For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body.


1Cr 11:30 For this cause many [are] weak and sickly among you, and many sleep.


1Cr 11:31 For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged

:thumbsup: you are on a roll bro !

why Christ come  to us........ :icon_flower:


Eze 18:4 Behold, all souls are mine;


as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine:


the soul that sins, it shall die.

[alihaymeg]

So what are the implications of that, if you believe that the soul can die? Are you saying that this death or seperation is permanent and therefore disproves that "All" will eventually be reconciled to God? Or do you see this as a temporary death?

[rosered]

So what are the implications of that, if you believe that the soul can die? Are you saying that this death or seperation is permanent and therefore disproves that "All" will eventually be reconciled to God? Or do you see this as a temporary death?

  Hi alihaymeg ,
  I am not saying it is permanent

  the Lord restores our souls , the mind or soul is the seat of emotion  appetite 
etc , 
those who hunger and thirst after righteousness shall be filled 
  this  defining  of the bible usage helped me to understand  a distinction of what the soul and spirit are 
they are not so far apart , we have an animal soul [carnal]  and spiritual soul  that belongs to Christ I see the soul of the beast being slain [ Paul speaks of this  here ]  Daniel  first and   Paul also  speaks of this  Dan 7:11 I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld [even] till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame.  

1Cr 13:3 And though I bestow all my goods to feed [the poor], and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profits me nothing.

  but is see the soul as   how we are different  in places of our lives
faith and   trust  in Jesus  makes us more  rested/ settled  in our walk in the Spirit because we are not so  fearful and  tossed around  doubting our salvation  to me 
I do not think our souls are  first  to be  fixed by the Lord  but last
  see how Peter  shows this plainly ? in his speech here ?1Pe 1:9 Receiving the end of your faith, [even] the salvation of [your] souls. ,


to me Peter was confident   till the trials come upon him and his soul  was tossed about  and sifted like wheat  by satan , but the Lord prayed his faith would not fail him [peter] 1Pe 2:25 For you  were as sheep going astray; but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.   Jesus said when you are turned around/converted  Peter  feed my lambs / sheep 
  through his experiences  he could  relate and help others whom were going through the same things  , having this in common

  here i see an anchor as a settled/rested  and no longer blown about
  by the expression in the  way it is written  here


Hbr 6:19 Which [hope] we have as an anchor of the soul, both sure and stedfast, and which entereth into that within the veil; Whither the forerunner is for us entered, [even] Jesus, made an high priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.
  Strong's G5590 - psychē ψυχή
psychē
Part of Speech
feminine noun

Root Word (Etymology)

from G5594

Outline of Biblical Usage 1) breath

a) the breath of life
1) the vital force which animates the body and shows itself in breathing

a) of animalsb) of men
b) life

c) that in which there is life

1) a living being, a living soul

2) the soul

a) the seat of the feelings, desires, affections, aversions (our heart, soul etc.)
b) the (human) soul in so far as it is constituted that by the right use of the aids offered it by God it can attain its highest end and secure eternal blessedness, the soul regarded as a moral being designed for everlasting life

c) the soul as an essence which differs from the body and is not dissolved by death (distinguished from other parts of the body)

  hope this helps a little 
I cannot explain things very well but keep on trying anyways 
God bless you  in searching for His Truth ..

[Taffy]

Al..
Too add w we bit to Roses Post.

The soul of Man PERISHES, The enmity which was,Our SOULS renewed  as Is the Promise of the New C.

As Rose points out , the seat of Our emoTions, Taste....

Christ Tasted Death FOR ALL MEN.

Hbr 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

those who believe On HIM shall Not TASTE death as their souls have been restored.

Jhn 8:52 Then said the Jews unto him, Now we know that thou hast a devil. Abraham is dead, and the prophets; and thou sayest, If a man keep my saying, he shall never taste of death.

Did Christ Promise This.

Mat 5:6 Blessed [are] they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled.

Exd 16:31 And the house of Israel called the name thereof Manna: and it [was] like coriander seed, white; and the taste of it [was] like wafers [made] with honey.

Hab 2:14 For the earth shall be filled with the knowledge of the glory of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea.   


Christ Tasted Death for everyman, so we could Taste the Fruit of the Tree of LIFE.

Brings again greater understanding to this scripture, to we NOT TASTE with the TONGUE?

Pro 18:21 Death and life [are] in the power of the tongue: and they that love it shall eat the fruit thereof.

:icon_flower:

[alihaymeg]

Having studied psychology, it is often hard for me to shake my ingrained notions about what the division between spirit soul and body. I always thought that Freud's Id, Ego, and Super-ego were a parallel description of that division; the soul (or ego) being caught between the influences of the body (Id) and spirit (Super-ego).

My understanding is that all evil lies in the realm of the flesh just like that little devil that sits on your shoulder influencing you to do the wrong thing.

The spirit I always equated with the life force of God made alive by the influence of the Holy Spirit. I guess that would be the angel on the other shoulder.

I understood our soul to be the part of us that is unique and gives us our individuality. We then choose what voice to listen to and that is where our character comes from.

Does this make any sense to anyone?

With that in mind, I can see how the soul could be made to sleep but I don't see how it could be destroyed without annihilating the essence of who we are.

Any thoughts?

[Kimberlaina]

so, what do you SEE as Flesh? then , what do you SEE as SPIRIT?

shall we move from there? :icon_flower:

I took a while to think about this.  Don't worry, I didn't forget the thread!

I don't promise any sort of biblical correctness here.  I grew up reading the Bible but I'm a confessed "Biblephobe" -- I always found reading it very scary  :mshock: and avoided it for years.  I'm just now trying to get myself over that fear and increase my knowledge of Scripture.

I always thought of the flesh as being the "animal" part of us.  Flesh is comfort-seeking -- it always wants to feel good and be comfortable, no matter what the cost.  There is no empathy for other human beings in flesh because it is all about survival; competition is the name of the game.  It is the part that wants violent revenge for all wrongs and always seeks to get its own way.

Spirit is the essence of who we are.  I guess I kindof see it as what God intended us to be (to steal some words from Dostoevsky), a part of us that is veiled by the evil deeds of the flesh.  Spirit is our "full potential," the part of us that is the Image of God.

I feel like this is making more sense to me.  I feel like Matthew 13 is actually applicable on many levels, too.  For example, on this earth, sometimes evil deeds cause good things to happen and vice versa.  I think that speaks to the "wheat" and the "tares" being so entangled that you can't harvest one without the other in this world.  We as human beings are the same way.  No good deed is without a little hint of evil, and no evil deed is without a little hint of good.   :happy3:

[70sevens]

Please allow me to interrupt.

[Joh 3:6]
That which is born of the flesh is flesh;
and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

'Fresh' has several meanings in the Bible.
However, here it means 'a man who is born naturally.'
'Spirit' means 'a man who is born again with Jesus life.'
(Please do not confuse with Spirit-Soul-Body, which describes
3 parts of our being)

All mankind come into this world as 'flesh', the sinners.
When a man meets true Jesus in his life,
Jesus will make him born again as 'spirit', the righteous.

Each of us is 'flesh' when born, and when we meet true Jesus,
we will be born again as 'spirit' within this lifetime.
Jesus and the whole Scriptures talks about this born again
from 'flesh' to 'spirit'

In the parable of Matthew 13,
the tare is 'flesh', which is individual people,
i.e. each of us, and is fruitless.
and wheat is 'spirit,' which bears fruit.

The tare has the possibility to be born again as wheat.
That's the reason why Jesus said to disciples to wait.
However, tare should go through the fire (God's word in Jesus)
to have all of its non-divine elements be destroyed.
Then tare will be born again as wheat.
Flesh becomes Spirit.

I guess people here consider 'the time of harvest' or 'the last day',
or 'the great and awesome day of the LORD'
as the judgment day afterlife.

It is not so.
It refers to the last day of 'flesh' of each of us, the old man (Rom 6:6)
After this last day of 'flesh', we will be born again as 'spirit', a new man.
Therefore, the last day is glorious, great and notable day. 

I see UR belivers spend hard time to explain there would be no ET.
If they really concern about ET then they should solve the issue now here,
rather than waiting for seeing it with fear throughout the life.
How can we solve ET issue here?
Very simple.
Be 'spirit', be 'wheat'.
Then we are out of ET
regardless of its existence or non-existence afterlife.

If we realize this, we will not spend time arguing over ET,
but spend time for ourselves to be born again as spirit first.

God bless.

[jabcat]

Looking at your posts, 70...enjoying them, brother. Excellent points  :thumbsup:... God's blessing, James.

[Taffy]

Hi 70s :icon_flower:
weve talked before , other forums too., Also, Hi Kim,  thanks fo rgetting back and sharing some,  for mine,70s pretty much summed it up in what I was going to reply. :icon_flower:



Indeed, The flesh is our Heart and Mind, the seat of our emotions,the enmity,TO be CANAL(FLESH) MINDED IS death, NOT our natural Body, which can confuse when reading scrips when paul states "you are spirit NOT Flesh."

This is the Tares ( balck but look like wheat) which are Burnt Up and Destroyed ,been saying this for ages, Christ Often Uses the Pharisees of the Day to Emphasize His POINT,...so it can be seen TWO fold, as a Type of Folk, those under LAW, which is equal also to the Flesh.


These are all the Same, the same meassage ALL through scripture, repititon is a Great way To learn, and us parents never thought it "first" he ha.

Flesh v Spirit
Law v Grace and Truth
Bondage v Freedom
Old C v New C
Esau v Jacob
Cain v Abel\Seth( appointed )
Child\slave \babe v Son or Heir
Old Jerusalem v New Jerusalem
Woman V Mother( ever Notice Christ never calls His Natural Mother, But Woman
Form v Reality
False Gold v GOLD which has been Tried by fire=Truth
Goliath v David
Corruptable v incorruption
Wisdom Beneath v Wisdom above.
5 Virgins no oil v 5 virgin with oil.
The sea below V the sea above ,known as the Heavens.
Josephs Folk v Joseph.
Old israel v New Israel.
Circumcision v circumcison of the Haert,
Old Man V  New Man
Darkness v light
Night v Day
Crooked  v Straight
Blind v Sight
Lame v Walk
Tof G&E V Tof L

etc
and the list goes On..
:icon_flower:

[Molly]

Indeed, The flesh is our Heart and Mind, the seat of our emotions,the enmity,TO be CANAL(FLESH) MINDED IS death, NOT our natural Body, which can confuse when reading scrips when paul states "you are spirit NOT Flesh."

This is the Tares ( balck but look like wheat) which are Burnt Up and Destroyed ,been saying this for ages, Christ Often Uses the Pharisees of the Day to Emphasize His POINT,...so it can be seen TWO fold, as a Type of Folk, those under LAW, which is equal also to the Flesh.

"The flesh is our heart and mind"

This confuses me. 

37Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.

--Mat 22


"heart"

G2588
καρδία
kardia
kar-dee'-ah
Prolonged from a primary κάρ kar (Latin cor, "heart"); the heart, that is, (figuratively) the thoughts or feelings (mind); also (by analogy) the middle: - (+ broken-) heart (-ed).



"mind"

G1271
διάνοια
dianoia
dee-an'-oy-ah
From G1223 and G3563; deep thought, properly the faculty (mind or its disposition), by implication its exercise: - imagination, mind, understanding.


"soul"

G5590
ψυχή
psuchē
psoo-khay'
From G5594; breath, that is, (by implication) spirit, abstractly or concretely (the animal sentient principle only; thus distinguished on the one hand from G4151, which is the rational and immortal soul; and on the other from G2222, which is mere vitality, even of plants: these terms thus exactly correspond respectively to the Hebrew [H5315], [H7307] and [H2416]: - heart(+ -ily), life, mind, soul, + us, + you.



So is Jesus talking about our 'tare" parts here?  But a tare only looks like  wheat, it can never be  wheat.  A tare is a different plant altogether.  Then why would he bother to instruct the tare to love God?  Such would be impossible.  The tare is destined for destruction, whereas the heart and mind are our highest faculties as humans.  So do we have a fourth component called the 'carnal mind'?


Romans 8:7
Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

This is not exactly talking about the mind--more an intent--a purpose--related to flesh--

"carnal mind"
"sarx phronema"


"carnal"
G4561
σάρξ
sarx
sarx
Probably from the base of G4563; flesh (as stripped of the skin), that is, (strictly) the meat of an animal (as food), or (by extension) the body (as opposed to the soul (or spirit), or as the symbol of what is external, or as the means of kindred, or (by implication) human nature (with its frailties (physically or morally) and passions), or (specifically) a human being (as such): - carnal (-ly, + -ly minded), flesh ([-ly]).


"mind"

G5427
φρόνημα
phronēma
fron'-ay-mah
From G5426; (mental) inclination or purpose: - (be, + be carnally, + be spiritually) mind (-ed).



In other words, it is not the mind itself that is the problem, but the intent of the mind, its purpose, its focus.


The same is true of the heart.

Matthew 6:21
For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.


Now if one has evil in his heart continually and is plotting death and destruction to millions of people, or even just his wife or boss--we have a problem.   This is not being under the law--this is just plain evil.

So what is the tare, what is the wheat--in that?  God totally wiped out people like that in the flood.  The mind and heart of these people was corrupt beyond redemption by their purpose, thought,  and intent.


5And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

6And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.

--Gen 6

[Taffy]

37Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.

Hi Molly

Thought to take your post piece by piece.

I see the scripture above all bearing witness to each other..HEART , MIND , SOUL BEING ONE.

But the Soul( heart and Mind of Man) first has to perish.....as we are told

Jhn 6:53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.

so ,I see Two Souls , The Breath which is\was breathed into Mortal Man ,That is the Adam which is Formed from the Ground and Became a Living Soul ., first the Natural Man , then the spirtual Man  which  is then  RENEWED by the TRUE breath of Life.

The first, which is Carnal,Dies, when Born anew in the New Covenant,  I see scripture reffering to this as RENEWING the face of the Earth.

and for me this ,is where I see it., for we are Told we are Being Created in God Image

Psalm 104:30Thou sendest forth thy SPIRIT, THEY are CREATED: and thou RENEWEST the face of the earth.

If we go Back the  Garden, we see The first Adam Created both Male and Female, This Is our True estate. The resurrected Christ In us, for In the KingdoM there is No male or female..we are ONE.

Gen 1:26-28  And God said, Let us make MAN in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.  27  So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he HIM [He called THEIR name ADAM]; male and female created he THEM.  28  And God blessed THEM, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and SUBDUE it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.

then we see ADAM again ( which is symbolic of Christ The MAN, who lays His life Down for the Church, He was Not decieved) ) and Then Eve (woman symbolic of the Church).

but back to The END of the seventh Day, we read THIS

Gen 2:6 But there went up a mist from the earth, and watered the whole face of the ground.

Its almost written Backwards, where our minds tend look forward.

Christ Declaring The End before the Beginning :HeartThrob:

I see this verse again
Jhn 20:22 And when he had said this, he breathed on [them], and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost

When NEW life WAS given, a renewing of our SOULS, Christ WRITTEN in OUR HEARTS and MINDS, The promise of the New Covenant.

So the Soul ,HIS breath, Is Spirit and Zoe Life...HIS Spirit ,Testifying NOW with Ours ,Making US ONE.

This Is why Paul states, The flesh( the soul of MAN)is enmity, and To be CARNAL minded is DEATH, although ADAM was formed from the Earth and Made a Living soul, the SOUL that Sinneth will die , he was a DEAD man walking.

I feel this is why there so much confusion...Quite simply, the soul which is the Flesh has to DIE , then  the TRUE breath of Life is Given.

1Cr 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam [was made] a quickening spirit. 



Carnal soul DIES

Act 3:23 And it shall come to pass, [that] every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people.
Spiritual soul lives

Act 4:32 And the multitude of them that believed were of one heart and of one soul: neither said any [of them] that ought of the things which he possessed was his own; but they had all things common.


Hbr 10:38 Now the just shall live by faith: but if [any man] draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.

What divides the HEART MIND=Soul Of Man From The Hidden man Within

Hbr 4:12 For the word of God( Christ in us)d powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and [is] a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

Pnuema may be about later to give a More technical explaination :icon_jokercolor:

t

[pneuma]

Pnuema may be about later to give a More technical explaination

:laughing7: you explained it just fine bro, but I will give more on the BREATH OF LIFE.

Breath of life

Genesis 2:7
7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Many believe that this is speaking of how natural man was created.
They believe that God took dust from the ground, breathed His spirit into the dust and that this union of dust and spirit is the make up of man who is then called a living soul.

But is that what God said?

Let's look closely at this scripture.

And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground.

It says plainly here that God formed MAN of the dust of the ground before He breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and before MAN became a living soul.

Now we know that man is made up of spirit, soul and body. 1 Thessalonians 5:23
23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

This man of dust already had a spirit, soul and body, for is not man made up of spirit, soul and body?

And if this man of dust spoken of here did not already have a spirit, soul and body can it be rightly called man?

Cannot we understand by this that man was already created? And that God is doing something other then creating a natural man here?

God is not creating a natural man here as in the creation of the first man Adam, but He is shaping man to be in His image and likeness here.

We read in Genesis 1:26-27
26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. 27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

The word created here comes from the Hebrew word bara and formed from Genesis 2:7 is the Hebrew word yatsar.

So why does the scriptures use two different words if they are both dealing with the creation of man?

Because the man being formed in Genesis 2:7 finds his fulfillment in Gen.1:26-27 in being created in the image and likeness of God.

Yatsar comes with the weight of something being squeezed into shape as a potter molding the clay.

Genesis 2:7 is telling us the process of how we are being formed into the image and likeness of God, it is not telling us how natural man was created, but it is telling us how the spiritual man is being created.

Genesis 2:7
7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Now we have always read this scripture (me included) as to how MAN was originally created. And I believe we have been understanding it all wrong.
This is not speaking about how man was originally created, but rather it is speaking of how God is making the MAN he originally created into His image and likeness.

Now when God formed MAN He formed MAN from the dust of the ground.
Now this MAN God formed from the dust of the ground already had a spirit, soul, and body. He is the flesh man or the old man or the man of sin, a living creature/beast man that lives unto itself, this is that MAN we are/were before God breathes the breath of life unto MAN.

Now Gods breath is the brimstone (Is.30:33) spoken of in the second death and here it is called the BREATH OF LIFE. Now why would that which is seen as part of the make up of the second death be called the breath of life?

To understand why a part of the second death is called the breath of life let's look at the meaning of the word BREATH.

It comes from the Hebrew word n\eshamah which is rooted in the Hebrew word nasham which means to destroy but also carries the weight of a woman in travail.

When God breathed the BREATH OF LIFE unto MAN it was for the destruction of the MAN that he was by birthing in the MAN of dust Jesus Christ.

It is because of this MAN became a living soul.

Now living soul and living creature come from the same Hebrew word nephesh.

The MAN of dust was a living creature/nephesh, living its own life until the BREATH OF LIFE was breathed upon him. Once the BREATH OF LIFE which is the birth/manifestation of Jesus Christ in the MAN of dust, MAN became a living soul/nephesh or a new creature in Christ.

[Taffy]

So is Jesus talking about our 'tare" parts here?  But a tare only looks like  wheat, it can never be  wheat.  A tare is a different plant altogether.  Then why would he bother to instruct the tare to love God?  Such would be impossible.  The tare is destined for destruction, whereas the heart and mind are our highest faculties as humans.  So do we have a fourth component called the 'carnal mind'?

Its Impossible for a Tare to Love God (Pharisee, exemplify what OUR Flesh Is), But it doesnt Prevent the decree ,One gives Up Life to Gain it, the destruction of the Soulish Mind...Math 23.

The wisdom from Below is Earthly, Christ Is The WISDOM from Above , Him in US

Yes a Tare Can Never Be wheat, Tis why Its destroyed ....Then renewed :icon_flower:

The mystery Secret of the Ages is about the HIDDEN man of the Heart.

The Tares ( The soul of man as explained) GROWS ""with" the "WHEAT", That wheat IS the Hidden Man of the heart, which  is hides behind the veil within.

When the Harvest Is Ready , the Carnal Mind( soul) Is Burnt( destroyed) which UNVIELS the Hidden Man of The Heart( wheat, this is all happening within us.....)

so No, we do Not have a Fourth component, not for mine anyways. :icon_flower:

:icon_flower:

[Molly]

The MAN of dust was a living creature/nephesh, living its own life until the BREATH OF LIFE was breathed upon him. Once the BREATH OF LIFE which is the birth/manifestation of Jesus Christ in the MAN of dust, MAN became a living soul/nephesh or a new creature in Christ.

So could we conclude from this that Eve was not a living soul?  And, that is why she was deceived?

[pneuma]

The MAN of dust was a living creature/nephesh, living its own life until the BREATH OF LIFE was breathed upon him. Once the BREATH OF LIFE which is the birth/manifestation of Jesus Christ in the MAN of dust, MAN became a living soul/nephesh or a new creature in Christ.

So could we conclude from this that Eve was not a living soul?  And, that is why she was deceived?

As Eve was in Adam when God breathed the breath of Life, I would say she recieved it to.

[Molly]

The MAN of dust was a living creature/nephesh, living its own life until the BREATH OF LIFE was breathed upon him. Once the BREATH OF LIFE which is the birth/manifestation of Jesus Christ in the MAN of dust, MAN became a living soul/nephesh or a new creature in Christ.

So could we conclude from this that Eve was not a living soul?  And, that is why she was deceived?

As Eve was in Adam when God breathed the breath of Life, I would say she recieved it to.

They why is she deceived and he isn't?

[Taffy]

The MAN of dust was a living creature/nephesh, living its own life until the BREATH OF LIFE was breathed upon him. Once the BREATH OF LIFE which is the birth/manifestation of Jesus Christ in the MAN of dust, MAN became a living soul/nephesh or a new creature in Christ.

So could we conclude from this that Eve was not a living soul?  And, that is why she was deceived?

As Eve was in Adam when God breathed the breath of Life, I would say she recieved it to.

They why is she deceived and he isn't?

Have a Think Molly, What Part of Man is deceived ?.. for mine ,the answer has already been given :icon_flower: