what would you answer

[Abigail]

Dear siblings  :friendstu:

We currently have an email discussion on UR with a friend. He has several objections, some easier to answer than other.
I'd like to hear your responds on the following:

- 'I am concerned about your family, because you do not warn your children for an eternal hell. This makes the choice for God too open-ended / non-committal'. Our friend thinks because we teach our children UR, they are laid back about following God.

- Our friend has sent us an article in which a view on hell is promoted, of which I have heard more often. It is a softer kind of hell, the CS Lewis kind of hell so to say. It basically comes down to this: people live on forever, but left to themselves and their sin, without God and without hope. I view this as if God says FREEZE at the moment you die (you stay in the state you were just before you died forever), without hope. Have you ever discussed this with brothers and sisters?

[Tom]

That's a philosophy of man which is false doctrine not found in scripture, but this is the truth of the inspired written word of God.

"and through Him to reconcile all to Him (making peace through the blood of His cross), through Him, whether those on the earth or those in the heavens" (Colossians 1:20)

[marie glen]

- Our friend has sent us an article in which a view on hell is promoted, of which I have heard more often. It is a softer kind of hell, the CS Lewis kind of hell so to say. It basically comes down to this: people live on forever, but left to themselves and their sin, without God and without hope. I view this as if God says FREEZE at the moment you die (you stay in the state you were just before you died forever), without hope. Have you ever discussed this with brothers and sisters?

  Wow! I've never heard that before.. very interesting.. certainly a better vision/idea than the usual! :smile:
But not, in my opinion, very logical! :faint: Seeing as God is everywhere, it would be sort of like having a mansion, but the restroom is an unkempt outhouse.. Sure makes God seem to be less than able.. less than all powerful.. less than perfect..

- 'I am concerned about your family, because you do not warn your children for an eternal hell. This makes the choice for God too open-ended / non-committal'. Our friend thinks because we teach our children UR, they are laid back about following God.

I actually can see that point.. not that UR makes one more laid back about following the Lord, but perhaps a bit less urgent feeling we simply MUSt convince someone.. no matter what.. Which I think mainstream christians sometimes are obnoxious in their attempts to persuade, believing the one they are talking to will perish (or worse!)

And also, i believe UR is infinitely more believable than the mainstream message as it's put forth. I believe the doctrine of hell does two main things - blasphemes God's holy and good character every day, and 2-very effectively keeps the message/good news hidden, for frankly, it sounds unbelievable, aka ridiculous.. It doesn't ring true and so people do not believe the gospel message, :sigh: ...and increasingly western civilization is going atheist (and, or pagan). Because the message - a little leaven, leavens the whole lump - does not ring true to their ears (and heart).. But thankfully "with God all things are possible" and people do still come to the Lord. [I actually think any untruth to our message, voids, for a large part, the message.]

I also think trying to persuade someone before the Spirit has made them ready, can do more harm than good, pushing them away from the Lord.. I'm not saying persuasion never works, but I'm more of a scatter a bit of seed here and there. ..Unless more, via the Spirit's prompting, is called for.

It is likely true, the churches do more missions, etc. That's why i see the churches, even though they don't perceive UR, as still being of the sevenfold Spirit of God.. Still brethren, etc. Where one lacks another abounds, and where one abounds, the other lacks..

[Psalm91:4]

Dear siblings  :friendstu:

We currently have an email discussion on UR with a friend. He has several objections, some easier to answer than other.
I'd like to hear your responds on the following:

- 'I am concerned about your family, because you do not warn your children for an eternal hell. This makes the choice for God too open-ended / non-committal'. Our friend thinks because we teach our children UR, they are laid back about following God.

I`d respond by asking them to show me where Jesus ever said to warn our children of eternal hell in scripture. 

Then I`d point out the scripture where he said let the children come to me and forbid them not etc.  Which is what you are doing as their mother....praying with them,  speaking of him, loving them as you walk and and are  loving the Lord.

Plus, if I were to teach my kids about an eternal hell...it would be a kind of forbidding them to go to him.....eternally. 

[rosered]

  Dear Abbigale 
  I love what everyone has shared ,,,

    the fear of the Lord is the beginning of Wisdom  ,   and that is a good start , but by no means is the end   , we are  all grow in truth and grace    as God gives the increase     ..     More Spiritual  gifts of  truth and strength and mercy and love etc to the fulness of Christ ..

    Luke 2   39When they had performed everything according to the Law of the Lord, they returned to Galilee, to their own city of Nazareth.


40The Child continued to grow and become strong, increasing in wisdom; and the grace of God was upon Him.

  We are to learn though the example Jesus Christ  in the Word   ,    He  showed us the way     and we must walk also  in the same light of truth as the grace of God    covers us   with the blood of the Lamb 


Jesus abolished death at the cross     , its in His total and   complete  control  ,  HE   has the keys to hades / unseen graves and death       and  frees those whom He  owns , we belong to Jesus      :HeartThrob:

      Rev 1 I am the Living One; I was dead, and now look, I am alive for ever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and Hades

[Abigail]

Love your responds  :banana:

Another point our friend mentioned, I know something is wrong, but I cannot figure out exactly what.

'Universalism teaches a second chance. Like when you missed the first chance you get another chance in the afterlife'.  :Chinscratch:

[Tom]

Well, they're probably saying that because those who die as unbelievers will be judged before the great white throne and go into the second death-the lake of fire, but they will eventually be saved when death is abolished at the consummation of the eons because "God is the savior of all mankind." (1 Timothy 4:10) It's up to God who has faith because we believers are saved "in grace through faith" (Ephesians 2:8,9) as a gift from God, not by anything we do to earn it. God chose us from before the disruption of the world. (Ephesians 1:4) God has mercy on unbelievers. They won't have eonian life like believers, but they will eventually be immortalized just like believers. That happens to all mankind in three classes. Christ was the firstfruit; we believers come next when we're snatched away to meet Christ in the air; then unbelievers when death is abolished. (1 Corinthians 15:22-24) So your friend is right about unbelievers getting "a second chance," and that drives church people that believe in torture in fire forever crazy because they think that means that you can just do whatever you want without suffering the consequences. Most fellow Christian believers probably hope unbelievers will be tortured in fire forever because they think they deserve it, but scripture says all on the earth and in the heavens will be reconciled to God through Christ's blood on the cross. (Colossians 1:20) That not only includes Hitler but Satan himself. Most people can't understand how that can be right, but that's what scripture says. Who are we to judge who deserves to have God's mercy? We are all sinners, and we believers are only justified through Christ. Christ died for the sins of the whole world (1 John 2:2) not just believers. Church doctrine is exclusive, but the evangel of God as written in the word of God is inclusive of not only all mankind but all on the earth and in the heavens. (Colossians 1:20) That's what universal reconciliation is. It's simply the truth of scripture that those who are trapped by the systematized deception of Satan's church counterfeit for the ecclesia deny because they have been programmed to believe it is heresy which is nothing but a belief that doesn't conform to church doctrine, but it is the church that invalidates the word of the living God not those who believe it. I don't care who calls me a heretic. I think it's funny and true, and I'm not ashamed of it. I think everybody who isn't a heretic needs to check their doctrine because what the church is preaching is a lie straight from Satan. There's no way to sugar coat that. It is Satan slandering the Father by saying his ultimate plan is to torture the majority of mankind in fire forever. That is a lie that most Christians have been deceived into believing by the institution that is supposed to represent God in the world but actually represents the chief Adversary of God, and that is Satan himself and the world church regardless of denomination. Christianity became corrupt when it was hijacked by Rome, and the Protestant Reformation neglected to purge some of the basic deception. So your Protestant denominations are guilty of the same deception even though there are good people in both the Catholic Church and the Protestant Church who are true believers. They just don't understand the full scope of the evangel because it has been distorted by their church preaching. It's hard to watch fellow believers who are still trapped by the deception experience the agony of being told the truth about their church because they consider it to be righteous, but anybody with an open mind who studies church history and church doctrine compared to an accurate translation of scripture has to realize that they're two very different stories. I was raised in the Roman Catholic Church, and I tried the Protestant Church for awhile. Now I'm an ex-churcher who says that scripture is sufficient. I was a truth seeker when I left the Catholic Church in my youth, and I traveled down a lot of dead ends before I found the way and the truth and the life in the inspired written word of God. That's all I need. I get inspired with holy spirit when I read the word of God. I no longer have a need or a desire to belong to a church. I belong to the ecclesia, the body of Christ. I communicate with fellow believers wherever whenever I can sometimes online here at the forum. I know some folks want to be able to socialize in the real world, and I think that's cool. But I'm not going to do it at the expense of the truth. We're supposed to worship in spirit and truth. (John 4:23,24) I can't do that in church. So I don't go to church anymore. I believe the word of God is truth, and reading the inspired written word of God inspires you with the holy spirit of God. So I don't have to go to church because, like I said, scripture is sufficient.

[Abigail]

So your friend is right about unbelievers getting "a second chance," and that drives church people that believe in torture in fire forever crazy because they think that means that you can just do whatever you want without suffering the consequences.

Well, I was wondering whether you could say 'chance'. Sounds weird to me, sounds like having to do with gambling... I wonder whether there is 'chances' with God, or should we pose this differently.

[Tom]

They will get a second "chance" at life because death will be abolished. It's not about gambling. It is a certain thing to happen according to the word of God. They will receive immortality just like believers, but at the consummation of the eons. They will not experience eonian life in Christ like believers. They will be dead, but death will abolished at the consummation of the eons. That's when all mankind will be saved, and all on the earth and in the heavens will be reconciled to God through Christ's blood on the cross.

http://www.saviourofall.org/charts/ChartOfJudgments.html

[Tom]

If you prefer, you could say that you would rather say they get to experience life again, but there is no "chance" involved because God has said it will happen in the inspired written word of God.

[Tom]

That is God's ultimate plan which their church doctrine hides and replaces with torture in fire forever, and that's supported by forgery in the translation of scripture which is why I say you need to read an accurate translation to get the truth straight from the source not from the preacher at church.

http://concordant.org/online/index.html

[Abigail]

If you prefer, you could say that you would rather say they get to experience life again, but there is no "chance" involved because God has said it will happen in the inspired written word of God.

I think that's what I mean

[Abigail]

Another thing he asks is:

'In the last chapters of Revelations I read again and again about hell. There is nothing about transition to heaven. If universalism would be right, wouldn't you expect a scripture on that transition?'

[Abigail]

I`d respond by asking them to show me where Jesus ever said to warn our children of eternal hell in scripture. 

He says we ought to warn them for hell, because he says Jesus warns people for hell (in general, not specifically children)
Although I already pointed out Jesus was speaking about judgments.

[Abigail]

Plus, if I were to teach my kids about an eternal hell...it would be a kind of forbidding them to go to him.....eternally.

:iagree:

[Searching_For_The_Truth]

"- 'I am concerned about your family, because you do not warn your children for an eternal hell. This makes the choice for God too open-ended / non-committal'. Our friend thinks because we teach our children UR, they are laid back about following God."

In my opinion the mainstream notion of everything riding on our free will (rather than God's will) makes God seem more laid back/non-commital than the concept of Christian Universalism. Deep down people like that have no love for God because all that's driving them to worship him is their fear of eternal torment. Without love for God, our worship and deeds are meaningless. At the end of the day, God does the saving when the time is right. Trust God and all things will work out somehow.

John 6:44 MKJV
(44) No one can come to Me unless the Father Who has sent Me draw him, and I will raise him up at the last day.

Matthew 16:15-17 MKJV
(15) He said to them, But Who do you say I am?
(16) And Simon Peter answered and said, You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.
(17) Jesus answered and said to him, You are blessed, Simon, son of Jonah, for flesh and blood did not reveal it to you, but My Father in Heaven.

[Tom]

Sis, I just posted a link to a vid that I just published on YouTube. I think it's a good explanation of why people think Jesus talked about so called "hell." Check it out.

http://tentmaker.org/forum/hellbusters-hallow/hell-is-a-lie-13339/

The thing about Revelation is that most Christians think it's the end of the story, but it's not. Paul is the one that tells about the consummation of the eons when all mankind will be saved and all on the earth and in the heavens will be reconciled to God.

[Tom]

You read "nothing about transition to heaven" in Revelation because that is written to the Jewish people who look forward to their earthly kingdom of the heavens ruled by their Messiah in Jerusalem. You will need to read Paul's letters to find out about the destiny of those of us of the nations who are told about the celestial realm. Just because somebody decided to stick Revelation at the end of your Bible doesn't mean it's the end of the story. Somebody just wanted you to think that. See the attachments.

[attachment deleted by admin]

[Tom]

The Old English word "hell" used to translate the Greek "hades," literally "unseen," in the King James Version should not be confused with "Gehenna" as it is in the King James Version intentionally twelve times. That is where most people think Jesus is talking about "hell," but he's talking about the garbage dump of Jerusalem where the corpses of executed criminals will be burned in the coming eon just as they were in the past. You need an accurate translation of scripture to read that though. Jesus was referring to Isaiah 66:23,24 when he spoke of "Gehenna" not "hell." In Revelation 20:14, the "unseen," or "hell" in the King James Version, is cast into "the lake of fire." So "hell" is obviously not "the lake of fire." Scripture says "the lake of fire" is "the second death." (Revelation 20:14) That means all unbelievers will be dead while believers will experience eonian life in Christ, but unbelievers will be made alive and given immortality at the consummation of the eons when death is abolished. (1 Corinthians 15:26)

[Tom]

Scripture only says the Adversary, the wild beast, and the false prophet will be tormented for the eons of the eons. (Revelation 20:10) They can not be mortals because scripture says the dead know nothing. (Ecclesiastes 9:5) I think most people confuse the judgment of the nations for how they treated Israel with the judgment of individuals at the great white throne a thousand years later. That causes people to think dead unbelievers will be chastened in "the lake of fire," but I believe the "chastening eonian" spoken of in Matthew 25:46 applies to live nations rather than dead unbelievers. Here is some information about that.

http://www.saviourofall.org/charts/ChartOfJudgments.html

[Abigail]

In Revelation 20:14, the "unseen," or "hell" in the King James Version, is cast into "the lake of fire." So "hell" is obviously not "the lake of fire." Scripture says "the lake of fire" is "the second death." (Revelation 20:14) That means all unbelievers will be dead while believers will experience eonian life in Christ, but unbelievers will be made alive and given immortality at the consummation of the eons when death is abolished. (1 Corinthians 15:26)

The Gehenna stuff is clear to me and I already explained to our friend. What I find more difficult to understand is the lake of fire, since not only death & Hades are thrown into it, but also those whose name was not found recorded in the Book of Life. So death, hades and unbelievers are destroyed (sounds like annihilation?). When you say 'they shall be given immortality at the consummation of the eons when death is abolished... how can that be, since death was already abolished in Rev. 20:14?  :dontknow:

[Abigail]

In my opinion the mainstream notion of everything riding on our free will (rather than God's will) makes God seem more laid back/non-commital than the concept of Christian Universalism. Deep down people like that have no love for God because all that's driving them to worship him is their fear of eternal torment. Without love for God, our worship and deeds are meaningless. At the end of the day, God does the saving when the time is right. Trust God and all things will work out somehow.

John 6:44 MKJV
(44) No one can come to Me unless the Father Who has sent Me draw him, and I will raise him up at the last day.

Matthew 16:15-17 MKJV
(15) He said to them, But Who do you say I am?
(16) And Simon Peter answered and said, You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.
(17) Jesus answered and said to him, You are blessed, Simon, son of Jonah, for flesh and blood did not reveal it to you, but My Father in Heaven.

:iagree:

[Abigail]

I think most people confuse the judgment of the nations for how they treated Israel with the judgment of individuals at the great white throne a thousand years later.

Could be, but I'm not sure and I cannot prove this by scripture, since 'nations' can also mean 'people', in the sense it just expresses there are a lot of people :Chinscratch:
Of course our friend came up with this scripture too...
The main point to me is 'when'? When does 'the Son of Man come in His glory and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory'?
How can I know this is not the same throne as the great white one? Or, maybe the same throne, but another judgment? :dontknow:
Furthermore, it's somewhat odd to take this as believers versus nonbelievers (which has to do with saving faith), since the whole story is about deeds/works.

[CHB]

You read "nothing about transition to heaven" in Revelation because that is written to the Jewish people who look forward to their earthly kingdom of the heavens ruled by their Messiah in Jerusalem. You will need to read Paul's letters to find out about the destiny of those of us of the nations who are told about the celestial realm. Just because somebody decided to stick Revelation at the end of your Bible doesn't mean it's the end of the story. Somebody just wanted you to think that. See the attachments.

Yes, I agree with this. It took me a long time to understand this.

CHB

[Tom]

All this is just my interpretation as I believe everybody has their own interpretation of scripture. I claim no authority. I believe the word of God is our authority. Destruction, perishing, and being lost are all the same and not a permanent condition in scripture because God is the savior of all mankind. When death and hades go into the lake of fire, it means the dead unbelievers. The death that is abolished at the consummation of the eons is the second death. Then there will be no more death at all, and all mankind will be vivified. The way you know the judgment of the nations a thousand years before the judgment at the great white throne is different is because of the chastening eonian of the nations which couldn't affect the dead in the second death-the lake of fire because the dead know nothing (Ecclesiastes 9:5). Chastening is about correction not punishment, and you have to be alive and conscious to be corrected. The only judgment for believers will be at the dais of Christ (2 Corinthians 5:10; 1 Corinthians 3:10-15) where our unworthy works will be burned up, and we'll receive wages for our good works not condemnation. Judgment is not always about condemnation.

http://concordant.org/expohtml/TheProblemOfEvil/index.html

http://www.saviourofall.org/charts/ChartOfJudgments.html