Dear siblings :friendstu:
We currently have an email discussion on UR with a friend. He has several objections, some easier to answer than other.
I'd like to hear your responds on the following:
- 'I am concerned about your family, because you do not warn your children for an eternal hell. This makes the choice for God too open-ended / non-committal'. Our friend thinks because we teach our children UR, they are laid back about following God.
- Our friend has sent us an article in which a view on hell is promoted, of which I have heard more often. It is a softer kind of hell, the CS Lewis kind of hell so to say. It basically comes down to this: people live on forever, but left to themselves and their sin, without God and without hope. I view this as if God says FREEZE at the moment you die (you stay in the state you were just before you died forever), without hope. Have you ever discussed this with brothers and sisters?
That's a philosophy of man which is false doctrine not found in scripture, but this is the truth of the inspired written word of God.
"and through Him to reconcile all to Him (making peace through the blood of His cross), through Him, whether those on the earth or those in the heavens" (Colossians 1:20)
Quote from: Abigail on May 05, 2015, 06:51:39 PM
- Our friend has sent us an article in which a view on hell is promoted, of which I have heard more often. It is a softer kind of hell, the CS Lewis kind of hell so to say. It basically comes down to this: people live on forever, but left to themselves and their sin, without God and without hope. I view this as if God says FREEZE at the moment you die (you stay in the state you were just before you died forever), without hope. Have you ever discussed this with brothers and sisters?
Wow! I've never heard that before.. very interesting.. certainly a better vision/idea than the usual! :smile:
But not, in my opinion, very logical! :faint: Seeing as God is everywhere, it would be sort of like having a mansion, but the restroom is an unkempt outhouse.. Sure makes God seem to be less than able.. less than all powerful.. less than perfect..
Quote from: Abigail on May 05, 2015, 06:51:39 PM
- 'I am concerned about your family, because you do not warn your children for an eternal hell. This makes the choice for God too open-ended / non-committal'. Our friend thinks because we teach our children UR, they are laid back about following God.
I actually can see that point.. not that UR makes one more laid back about following the Lord, but perhaps a bit less urgent feeling we simply MUSt convince someone.. no matter what.. Which I think mainstream christians sometimes are obnoxious in their attempts to persuade, believing the one they are talking to will perish (or worse!)
And also, i believe UR is infinitely more believable than the mainstream message as it's put forth. I believe the doctrine of hell does two main things - blasphemes God's holy and good character every day, and 2-very effectively keeps the message/good news hidden, for frankly, it sounds unbelievable, aka ridiculous.. It doesn't ring true and so people do not believe the gospel message, :sigh: ...and increasingly western civilization is going atheist (and, or pagan). Because the message - a little leaven, leavens the whole lump - does not ring true to their ears (and heart).. But thankfully "with God all things are possible" and people do still come to the Lord. [I actually think any untruth to our message, voids, for a large part, the message.]
I also think trying to persuade someone before the Spirit has made them ready, can do more harm than good, pushing them away from the Lord.. I'm not saying persuasion never works, but I'm more of a scatter a bit of seed here and there. ..Unless more,
via the Spirit's prompting, is called for.
It is likely true, the churches do more missions, etc. That's why i see the churches, even though they don't perceive UR, as still being of the sevenfold Spirit of God.. Still brethren, etc. Where one lacks another abounds, and where one abounds, the other lacks..
Quote from: Abigail on May 05, 2015, 06:51:39 PM
Dear siblings :friendstu:
We currently have an email discussion on UR with a friend. He has several objections, some easier to answer than other.
I'd like to hear your responds on the following:
- 'I am concerned about your family, because you do not warn your children for an eternal hell. This makes the choice for God too open-ended / non-committal'. Our friend thinks because we teach our children UR, they are laid back about following God.
I`d respond by asking them to show me where Jesus ever said to warn our children of eternal hell in scripture.
Then I`d point out the scripture where he said let the children come to me and forbid them not etc. Which is what you are doing as their mother....praying with them, speaking of him, loving them as you walk and and are loving the Lord.
Plus, if I were to teach my kids about an eternal hell...it would be a kind of forbidding them to go to him.....eternally.
Dear Abbigale
I love what everyone has shared ,,,
the fear of the Lord is the beginning of Wisdom , and that is a good start , but by no means is the end , we are all grow in truth and grace as God gives the increase .. More Spiritual gifts of truth and strength and mercy and love etc to the fulness of Christ ..
Luke 2 39When they had performed everything according to the Law of the Lord, they returned to Galilee, to their own city of Nazareth.
40The Child continued to grow and become strong, increasing in wisdom; and the grace of God was upon Him.
We are to learn though the example Jesus Christ in the Word , He showed us the way and we must walk also in the same light of truth as the grace of God covers us with the blood of the Lamb
Jesus abolished death at the cross , its in His total and complete control , HE has the keys to hades / unseen graves and death and frees those whom He owns , we belong to Jesus :HeartThrob:
Rev 1 I am the Living One; I was dead, and now look, I am alive for ever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and Hades
Love your responds :banana:
Another point our friend mentioned, I know something is wrong, but I cannot figure out exactly what.
'Universalism teaches a second chance. Like when you missed the first chance you get another chance in the afterlife'. :Chinscratch:
Well, they're probably saying that because those who die as unbelievers will be judged before the great white throne and go into the second death-the lake of fire, but they will eventually be saved when death is abolished at the consummation of the eons because "God is the savior of all mankind." (1 Timothy 4:10) It's up to God who has faith because we believers are saved "in grace through faith" (Ephesians 2:8,9) as a gift from God, not by anything we do to earn it. God chose us from before the disruption of the world. (Ephesians 1:4) God has mercy on unbelievers. They won't have eonian life like believers, but they will eventually be immortalized just like believers. That happens to all mankind in three classes. Christ was the firstfruit; we believers come next when we're snatched away to meet Christ in the air; then unbelievers when death is abolished. (1 Corinthians 15:22-24) So your friend is right about unbelievers getting "a second chance," and that drives church people that believe in torture in fire forever crazy because they think that means that you can just do whatever you want without suffering the consequences. Most fellow Christian believers probably hope unbelievers will be tortured in fire forever because they think they deserve it, but scripture says all on the earth and in the heavens will be reconciled to God through Christ's blood on the cross. (Colossians 1:20) That not only includes Hitler but Satan himself. Most people can't understand how that can be right, but that's what scripture says. Who are we to judge who deserves to have God's mercy? We are all sinners, and we believers are only justified through Christ. Christ died for the sins of the whole world (1 John 2:2) not just believers. Church doctrine is exclusive, but the evangel of God as written in the word of God is inclusive of not only all mankind but all on the earth and in the heavens. (Colossians 1:20) That's what universal reconciliation is. It's simply the truth of scripture that those who are trapped by the systematized deception of Satan's church counterfeit for the ecclesia deny because they have been programmed to believe it is heresy which is nothing but a belief that doesn't conform to church doctrine, but it is the church that invalidates the word of the living God not those who believe it. I don't care who calls me a heretic. I think it's funny and true, and I'm not ashamed of it. I think everybody who isn't a heretic needs to check their doctrine because what the church is preaching is a lie straight from Satan. There's no way to sugar coat that. It is Satan slandering the Father by saying his ultimate plan is to torture the majority of mankind in fire forever. That is a lie that most Christians have been deceived into believing by the institution that is supposed to represent God in the world but actually represents the chief Adversary of God, and that is Satan himself and the world church regardless of denomination. Christianity became corrupt when it was hijacked by Rome, and the Protestant Reformation neglected to purge some of the basic deception. So your Protestant denominations are guilty of the same deception even though there are good people in both the Catholic Church and the Protestant Church who are true believers. They just don't understand the full scope of the evangel because it has been distorted by their church preaching. It's hard to watch fellow believers who are still trapped by the deception experience the agony of being told the truth about their church because they consider it to be righteous, but anybody with an open mind who studies church history and church doctrine compared to an accurate translation of scripture has to realize that they're two very different stories. I was raised in the Roman Catholic Church, and I tried the Protestant Church for awhile. Now I'm an ex-churcher who says that scripture is sufficient. I was a truth seeker when I left the Catholic Church in my youth, and I traveled down a lot of dead ends before I found the way and the truth and the life in the inspired written word of God. That's all I need. I get inspired with holy spirit when I read the word of God. I no longer have a need or a desire to belong to a church. I belong to the ecclesia, the body of Christ. I communicate with fellow believers wherever whenever I can sometimes online here at the forum. I know some folks want to be able to socialize in the real world, and I think that's cool. But I'm not going to do it at the expense of the truth. We're supposed to worship in spirit and truth. (John 4:23,24) I can't do that in church. So I don't go to church anymore. I believe the word of God is truth, and reading the inspired written word of God inspires you with the holy spirit of God. So I don't have to go to church because, like I said, scripture is sufficient.
Quote from: Tom on May 05, 2015, 11:47:26 PM
So your friend is right about unbelievers getting "a second chance," and that drives church people that believe in torture in fire forever crazy because they think that means that you can just do whatever you want without suffering the consequences.
Well, I was wondering whether you could say 'chance'. Sounds weird to me, sounds like having to do with gambling... I wonder whether there is 'chances' with God, or should we pose this differently.
They will get a second "chance" at life because death will be abolished. It's not about gambling. It is a certain thing to happen according to the word of God. They will receive immortality just like believers, but at the consummation of the eons. They will not experience eonian life in Christ like believers. They will be dead, but death will abolished at the consummation of the eons. That's when all mankind will be saved, and all on the earth and in the heavens will be reconciled to God through Christ's blood on the cross.
http://www.saviourofall.org/charts/ChartOfJudgments.html
If you prefer, you could say that you would rather say they get to experience life again, but there is no "chance" involved because God has said it will happen in the inspired written word of God.
That is God's ultimate plan which their church doctrine hides and replaces with torture in fire forever, and that's supported by forgery in the translation of scripture which is why I say you need to read an accurate translation to get the truth straight from the source not from the preacher at church.
http://concordant.org/online/index.html
Quote from: Tom on May 06, 2015, 12:50:49 AM
If you prefer, you could say that you would rather say they get to experience life again, but there is no "chance" involved because God has said it will happen in the inspired written word of God.
I think that's what I mean
Another thing he asks is:
'In the last chapters of Revelations I read again and again about hell. There is nothing about transition to heaven. If universalism would be right, wouldn't you expect a scripture on that transition?'
Quote from: Psalm91:4 on May 05, 2015, 08:32:19 PM
Quote from: Abigail on May 05, 2015, 06:51:39 PM
I`d respond by asking them to show me where Jesus ever said to warn our children of eternal hell in scripture.
He says we ought to warn them for hell, because he says Jesus warns people for hell (in general, not specifically children)
Although I already pointed out Jesus was speaking about judgments.
Quote from: Psalm91:4 on May 05, 2015, 08:32:19 PM
Quote from: Abigail on May 05, 2015, 06:51:39 PM
Plus, if I were to teach my kids about an eternal hell...it would be a kind of forbidding them to go to him.....eternally.
:iagree:
"- 'I am concerned about your family, because you do not warn your children for an eternal hell. This makes the choice for God too open-ended / non-committal'. Our friend thinks because we teach our children UR, they are laid back about following God."
In my opinion the mainstream notion of everything riding on our free will (rather than God's will) makes God seem more laid back/non-commital than the concept of Christian Universalism. Deep down people like that have no love for God because all that's driving them to worship him is their fear of eternal torment. Without love for God, our worship and deeds are meaningless. At the end of the day, God does the saving when the time is right. Trust God and all things will work out somehow.
John 6:44 MKJV
(44) No one can come to Me unless the Father Who has sent Me draw him, and I will raise him up at the last day.
Matthew 16:15-17 MKJV
(15) He said to them, But Who do you say I am?
(16) And Simon Peter answered and said, You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.
(17) Jesus answered and said to him, You are blessed, Simon, son of Jonah, for flesh and blood did not reveal it to you, but My Father in Heaven.
Sis, I just posted a link to a vid that I just published on YouTube. I think it's a good explanation of why people think Jesus talked about so called "hell." Check it out.
http://tentmaker.org/forum/hellbusters-hallow/hell-is-a-lie-13339/
The thing about Revelation is that most Christians think it's the end of the story, but it's not. Paul is the one that tells about the consummation of the eons when all mankind will be saved and all on the earth and in the heavens will be reconciled to God.
You read "nothing about transition to heaven" in Revelation because that is written to the Jewish people who look forward to their earthly kingdom of the heavens ruled by their Messiah in Jerusalem. You will need to read Paul's letters to find out about the destiny of those of us of the nations who are told about the celestial realm. Just because somebody decided to stick Revelation at the end of your Bible doesn't mean it's the end of the story. Somebody just wanted you to think that. See the attachments.
[attachment deleted by admin]
The Old English word "hell" used to translate the Greek "hades," literally "unseen," in the King James Version should not be confused with "Gehenna" as it is in the King James Version intentionally twelve times. That is where most people think Jesus is talking about "hell," but he's talking about the garbage dump of Jerusalem where the corpses of executed criminals will be burned in the coming eon just as they were in the past. You need an accurate translation of scripture to read that though. Jesus was referring to Isaiah 66:23,24 when he spoke of "Gehenna" not "hell." In Revelation 20:14, the "unseen," or "hell" in the King James Version, is cast into "the lake of fire." So "hell" is obviously not "the lake of fire." Scripture says "the lake of fire" is "the second death." (Revelation 20:14) That means all unbelievers will be dead while believers will experience eonian life in Christ, but unbelievers will be made alive and given immortality at the consummation of the eons when death is abolished. (1 Corinthians 15:26)
Scripture only says the Adversary, the wild beast, and the false prophet will be tormented for the eons of the eons. (Revelation 20:10) They can not be mortals because scripture says the dead know nothing. (Ecclesiastes 9:5) I think most people confuse the judgment of the nations for how they treated Israel with the judgment of individuals at the great white throne a thousand years later. That causes people to think dead unbelievers will be chastened in "the lake of fire," but I believe the "chastening eonian" spoken of in Matthew 25:46 applies to live nations rather than dead unbelievers. Here is some information about that.
http://www.saviourofall.org/charts/ChartOfJudgments.html
Quote from: Tom on May 06, 2015, 04:08:27 AM
In Revelation 20:14, the "unseen," or "hell" in the King James Version, is cast into "the lake of fire." So "hell" is obviously not "the lake of fire." Scripture says "the lake of fire" is "the second death." (Revelation 20:14) That means all unbelievers will be dead while believers will experience eonian life in Christ, but unbelievers will be made alive and given immortality at the consummation of the eons when death is abolished. (1 Corinthians 15:26)
The Gehenna stuff is clear to me and I already explained to our friend. What I find more difficult to understand is the lake of fire, since not only death & Hades are thrown into it, but also those whose name was not found recorded in the Book of Life. So death, hades and unbelievers are destroyed (sounds like annihilation?). When you say 'they shall be given immortality at the consummation of the eons when death is abolished... how can that be, since death was already abolished in Rev. 20:14? :dontknow:
Quote from: Searching_For_The_Truth on May 06, 2015, 02:43:55 AM
In my opinion the mainstream notion of everything riding on our free will (rather than God's will) makes God seem more laid back/non-commital than the concept of Christian Universalism. Deep down people like that have no love for God because all that's driving them to worship him is their fear of eternal torment. Without love for God, our worship and deeds are meaningless. At the end of the day, God does the saving when the time is right. Trust God and all things will work out somehow.
John 6:44 MKJV
(44) No one can come to Me unless the Father Who has sent Me draw him, and I will raise him up at the last day.
Matthew 16:15-17 MKJV
(15) He said to them, But Who do you say I am?
(16) And Simon Peter answered and said, You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.
(17) Jesus answered and said to him, You are blessed, Simon, son of Jonah, for flesh and blood did not reveal it to you, but My Father in Heaven.
:iagree:
Quote from: Tom on May 06, 2015, 04:19:47 AM
I think most people confuse the judgment of the nations for how they treated Israel with the judgment of individuals at the great white throne a thousand years later.
Could be, but I'm not sure and I cannot prove this by scripture, since 'nations' can also mean 'people', in the sense it just expresses there are a lot of people :Chinscratch:
Of course our friend came up with this scripture too...
The main point to me is 'when'? When does 'the Son of Man come in His glory and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory'?
How can I know this is not the same throne as the great white one? Or, maybe the same throne, but another judgment? :dontknow:
Furthermore, it's somewhat odd to take this as believers versus nonbelievers (which has to do with saving faith), since the whole story is about
deeds/works.
Quote from: Tom on May 06, 2015, 03:46:38 AM
You read "nothing about transition to heaven" in Revelation because that is written to the Jewish people who look forward to their earthly kingdom of the heavens ruled by their Messiah in Jerusalem. You will need to read Paul's letters to find out about the destiny of those of us of the nations who are told about the celestial realm. Just because somebody decided to stick Revelation at the end of your Bible doesn't mean it's the end of the story. Somebody just wanted you to think that. See the attachments.
Yes, I agree with this. It took me a long time to understand this.
CHB
All this is just my interpretation as I believe everybody has their own interpretation of scripture. I claim no authority. I believe the word of God is our authority. Destruction, perishing, and being lost are all the same and not a permanent condition in scripture because God is the savior of all mankind. When death and hades go into the lake of fire, it means the dead unbelievers. The death that is abolished at the consummation of the eons is the second death. Then there will be no more death at all, and all mankind will be vivified. The way you know the judgment of the nations a thousand years before the judgment at the great white throne is different is because of the chastening eonian of the nations which couldn't affect the dead in the second death-the lake of fire because the dead know nothing (Ecclesiastes 9:5). Chastening is about correction not punishment, and you have to be alive and conscious to be corrected. The only judgment for believers will be at the dais of Christ (2 Corinthians 5:10; 1 Corinthians 3:10-15) where our unworthy works will be burned up, and we'll receive wages for our good works not condemnation. Judgment is not always about condemnation.
http://concordant.org/expohtml/TheProblemOfEvil/index.html
http://www.saviourofall.org/charts/ChartOfJudgments.html
I see the main thrust of Ecclesiastes this way:
The author presents a Sage who questions the plans of God in the light of how he, the Sage, has perceived the world (under the sun) as he has been living in it. His recounting of his lifetime's observations is in ebbs and flows.
The Sage is frustrated because he cannot see God's plans working out in his observations of the world.
He sees the wise becoming insignificant, the king of fools being remembered, He does not know whether the righteous and wise will receive love or hate, and there is no way to tell.
It appears that everybody is going to come to the same end whether they perform religious ceremonies or not, whether they are clean or dirty - everything under the sun is pointless. This is the conclusion reached by a person who observes "everything under the sun" of the material world, which does not tally up with God's viewpoint.
"This is the evil in everything that happens under the sun: The same destiny overtakes all".
This is the same frame of mind from which it is stated that: "The dead know nothing".
At one stage the viewpoint (which is a sensible one under the circumstances), is to make the best of life regardless and count what blessings one has. But the world is still frustratingly irreconcilable with God's vision.
The final chapter takes sharp turn in narrative delivery. We see youth being reminded of the life of the Sage with his inability to balance his worldly perceptions with the purpose of God.
Here we see youth being warned to learn from the Sage's observations, to remember the Creator, and not to waste time travelling the same path before it is too late and old age comes, when inevitably the silver cord is loosed from the physical body:
"If ever the silver cord be severed... and the dust returns to the ground it came from, and the spirit returns to God who gave it".
The Sage's message is: Learn from the experience of the wearisome path that has already been travelled by someone else; do not make the mistake of adding to it - be wise in time!
Finally, youth is urged to accept in faith, and without doubt, that God has overseen everything, therefore to obey with reverence His commands, and see that His laws (the sowing and reaping) provide perfect justice, which applies to both good and evil.
"Now all has been heard;
Here is the conclusion of the matter:
Fear God and keep his commandments,
For this is the duty of all mankind.
For God will bring every deed into judgment,
Including every hidden thing,
Whether it is good or evil".
Ecclesiastes 12
In my opinion, it would not be wise to take an observation used by the Sage to describe that which is irreconcilable with God's plan, i.e.
"For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing..."
...which is apparently a paired opposite to the Sage's ultimate conclusion: "if ever the silver cord be loosed... the dust returns to the ground it came from, and the spirit returns to God who gave it" - and use it in support of ones eschatological viewpoint.
Why do I care so much? For many good reasons.
"I am charging you in the sight of God, Who is vivifying all, and of Jesus Christ, Who testifies in the ideal avowal before Pontius Pilate, that you keep this precept unspotted, irreprehensible, unto the advent of our Lord, Christ Jesus, which, to its own eras, the happy and only Potentate will be showing: He is King of kings and Lord of lords, Who alone has immortality, making His home in light inaccessible, Whom not one of mankind perceived nor can be perceiving, to Whom be honor and might eonian! Amen!" (1 Timothy 6:13-16)
"Now we do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who are reposing, lest you may sorrow according as the rest, also, who have no expectation. For, if we are believing that Jesus died and rose, thus also, those who are put to repose, will God, through Jesus, lead forth together with Him. For this we are saying to you by the word of the Lord, that we, the living, who are surviving to the presence of the Lord, should by no means outstrip those who are put to repose, for the Lord Himself will be descending from heaven with a shout of command, with the voice of the Chief Messenger, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ shall be rising first. Thereupon we, the living who are surviving, shall at the same time be snatched away together with them in clouds, to meet the Lord in the air. And thus shall we always be together with the Lord." (1 Thessalonians 4:13-17)
"Yet from profane prattlings stand aloof, for they will be progressing to more irreverence, and their word will spread as gangrene, of whom are Hymeneus and Philetus, who swerve as to truth, saying that the resurrection has already occurred, and are subverting the faith of some." (2 Timothy 2:16-18)
"Thus also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is roused in incorruption. It is sown in dishonor; it is roused in glory. It is sown in infirmity; it is roused in power. It is sown a soulish body; it is roused a spiritual body. If there is a soulish body, there is a spiritual also. Thus it is written also, The first man, Adam, "became a living soul:" the last Adam a vivifying Spirit. But not first the spiritual, but the soulish, thereupon the spiritual. The first man was out of the earth, soilish; the second Man is the Lord out of heaven. Such as the soilish one is, such are those also who are soilish, and such as the Celestial One, such are those also who are celestials. And according as we wear the image of the soilish, we should be wearing the image also of the Celestial. Now this I am averring, brethren, that flesh and blood is not able to enjoy an allotment in the kingdom of God, neither is corruption enjoying the allotment of incorruption. Lo! a secret to you am I telling! We all, indeed, shall not be put to repose, yet we all shall be changed, in an instant, in the twinkle of an eye, at the last trump. For He will be trumpeting, and the dead will be roused incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal put on immortality. Now, whenever this corruptible should be putting on incorruption and this mortal should be putting on immortality, then shall come to pass the word which is written, Swallowed up was Death by Victory. Where, O Death, is your victory? Where, O Death, is your sting?" (1 Corinthians 15:42-55)
http://concordant.org/expohtml/DeathAndJudgment/WhatIsDeath.html
Love it lastpost! :HeartThrob: you give it a poetic justice :thumbsup:
Solomon had been given much earthly wisdom and it was for his time , But Jesus said a Greater than Solomon is Here !!! What a message !! :dsunny:
Nothing new under the sun , Oh ,but in the Sun the Light of the gospel of Jesus Christ :dsunny:
an angel standing in the Sun and a revelatory saying ! A messenger standing in the Light of the Gospel /new covenant /revealing of Christ !
Defeat of the Beast and False Prophet
rev 19
17Then I saw an angel standing in the sun, and he cried out with a loud voice, saying to all the birds which fly in midheaven, "Come, assemble for the great supper of God,
18so that you may eat the flesh of kings and the flesh of commanders and the flesh of mighty men and the flesh of horses and of those who sit on them and the flesh of all men, both free men and slaves, and small and great."
I have a inkling that this is a wonderful thing of God when the fleshly and carnal and worldly wisdom is out of the way is out of the way [defeat of the beastly nature and false prophet liar ] than the true cleansing begins
The Hope what remains is the Holy Spirit and truth out of all that slaughter , of Gods supper
Quote
"Yet from profane prattlings stand aloof, for they will be progressing to more irreverence, and their word will spread as gangrene, of whom are Hymeneus and Philetus, who swerve as to truth, saying that the resurrection has already occurred, and are subverting the faith of some." (2 Timothy 2:16-18)
Hi Tom , I used to have such a struggle with that when first reading the WORD OF GOD , it broke my heart to think of it
I prayed for Jesus to show me what is true ,
the Light came when He spoke in my heart saying
I AM ALWAYS , I AM THE RESURRECTION AND THE LIFE ,the resurrection
IS always !!! AS HE WAS IS AND WILL BE LIFE IN AND OF ITSELF
Saying its past is of a truth and saying it is ,. is of a truth and saying it will be is also of a truth , but to say its past is not truth alone , and making those of faith think it is for nothing Jesus has not risen we do not rise ?, or saying it is now is hope in the now , but not spoken alone , nor is saying its future correct saying it alone , some believe now and may miss a chance , if it sounds so far off and yet future .. so I say it like Jesus does the resurrection is him and HE IS always
I shouted with joy !! :dsunny:
it was a true moment of revelation of Jesus Christ within my heart :HeartThrob:,,,
NET Bible
Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. The one who believes in me will live even if he dies,
Aramaic Bible in Plain English
Yeshua said to her, "I AM THE LIVING GOD, The Resurrection and The Life; whoever trusts in me, even if he dies, he shall live."
GOD'S WORD® Translation
Jesus said to her, "I am the one who brings people back to life, and I am life itself. Those who believe in me will live even if they die.Jubilee Bible 2000
Jesus said unto her, I AM the resurrection and the life; he that believes in me, though he is dead, yet shall he live;
King James 2000 Bible
Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believes in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
American Standard Version
Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth on me, though he die, yet shall he live;
Darby Bible Translation
Jesus said to her, I am the resurrection and the life: he that believes on me, though he have died, shall live;
English Revised Version
Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth on me, though he die, yet shall he live:
Webster's Bible Translation
Jesus said to her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
Weymouth New Testament
"I am the Resurrection and the Life," said Jesus; "he who believes in me, even if he has died, he shall live;
World English Bible
Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in me will still live, even if he dies.
Young's Literal Translation
Jesus said to her, 'I am the rising again, and the life; he who is believing in me, even if he may die, shall live;
I'm sorry, sis. I believe what I read in scripture. It doesn't break my heart as you say it did yours to believe death is not another form of life because I believe that resurrection will be the true return of life to the truly dead just as it was to Jesus Christ. I believe that Jesus was truly dead just as I believe that he is now truly alive, and he is the only one who has been immortalized so far. But the wonderful expectation is that we all will be when we're snatched away to meet him in the air to be with him always, and then, at the consummation of the eons, even those who died as unbelievers will be.
I know this may sound strange to you Tom ,
but I have considered the new name that no man will know except Him whom receives it , Given by the Lord Himself , this is a bold statement and not taken anything away from the first born from the dead , But I see them as Gathering into JESUS CHRIST corporately speaking , not singularly as just one guy whom come in the flesh , but His Spirit and ,LIFE poured out into all flesh [His name is no name under heaven by which you must be saved ]
Pauls makes some bold truths in saying all things come out of Him and though Him and for HIM ALL THINGS exist ...
ITS BIG , much bigger than any human mind can comprehend
is the same name JESUS CHRIST ,meaning '' salvation'''' anointed'' !!
Rev 2 16'Therefore repent; or else I am coming to you quickly,
and I will make war against them with the sword of My mouth.
17He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.
To him who overcomes, to him I will give some of the hidden manna, and I will give him a white stone, and a new name written on the stone which no one knows but he who receives it.'
I do believe the Spirit of God and the Spirit of Christ dwell within many , those who have passed on from the physical plain, Written in the book of life , those whom are HIS
I believe spirit will return to them when they are vivified.
Quote from: Tom on May 07, 2015, 01:41:09 AM
I believe spirit will return to them when they are vivified.
This is fine by me bro , no worries we do have a different view on the scriptures in many cases .
For me , believing the HOLY SPIRIT is everywhere , all around us and in us and though us ACTS 17
not very far from any of us
and when you physically die , you are still a spirit being that goes back into God whom the
HOLY SPIRIT IS and all the LIVING 26and He made from one man every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth,
having determined their appointed times and the boundaries of their habitation,
27that they would seek God, if perhaps they might grope for Him and find Him,
though He is not far from each one of us;
28
for in Him we live and move and exist, as even some of your own poets have said, 'For we also are His children.'...
I don't think we mortals are "spirit beings" because scripture says we're living souls until we die and become dead souls. I think, when you die, the body returns to the soil, the spirit to God, and the soul to the unseen state it was in before life. I think the soul could be said to be figuratively sleeping, but I think the spirit is the power of life that returns to God until he decides to give us immortality. I think that has already happened once with Jesus Christ, and it will happen two more times for believers first to experience eonian life and beyond, and then unbelievers at the consummation of the eons.
http://concordant.org/expohtml/DeathAndJudgment/WhatIsTheSoul.html
The way I see it is, the first man Adam was a living soul. The last Adam is Christ, a life-giving spirit. If anyone be in Christ Jesus he is a new creation.
When we are born from above the portal of the heart opens to the heavens, the veil is removed from over the consciousness, and the Spirit of God descends and dwells over the mercy-seat(heart). The spirit of the man is vivified at that point, he is a new creature within. There is a process that remains in spreading that "newness" throughout, culminating in the redemption of our bodies, our adoption as sons. To begin, newborn, we cry Abba Father, little children in the spirit of adoption, in the end we will rejoice as "many sons unto glory".
The teaching that the spirit of man is only the breath of God could possibly be true for the unredeemed, they have not been made new. They are not in Christ, the life-giving spirit. They are still in Adam, the living soul. Those who are in Christ are life-giving spirits, children of the Most High- many brethren unto glory, many branches in one live giving Vine.
Numbers 16:22 But they fell on their faces and said, "O God, God of the spirits of all flesh, when one man sins, will You be angry with the entire congregation?"
Numbers 27:16 "May the Lord, the God of the spirits of all flesh, appoint a man over the congregation,
God is the God of the spirits of all flesh.
Psalm 32:2 How blessed is the man to whom the Lord does not impute iniquity, And in whose spirit there is no deceit!
Can a breath be deceitful? Does it choose truth or lie?
Proverbs 17:27 He who restrains his words has knowledge, And he who has a cool spirit is a man of understanding.
How does a man have any wisdom in remaining cool? if his spirit is just a breath having no person within it? Deos not the Spirit of God carry the person of God wherever it goes?
Proverbs 20:27 The spirit of man is the lamp of the Lord, Searching all the innermost parts of his being.
How does a breath search the innermost parts? Is it not the conscience(Rom 1) that will be revealed when hearts are searched on the Day? The word conscience is actually consciousness.
Proverbs 29:23 A man's pride will bring him low, But a humble spirit will obtain honor.
Can a breathe be humble or arrogant, and how do you judge the breath for being so, one way or another unless it is connected to the person and character of that person.
Zechariah 12:1 The burden of the word of the Lord concerning Israel. Thus declares the Lord who stretches out the heavens, lays the foundation of the earth, and forms the spirit of man within him,
God forms the spirit in man, and He forms it to be the consciousness of the man, knowing his innermost thoughts, even as God's Spirit searches out His own innermost thoughts
1 Corinthians 2:11 For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so the thoughts of God no one knows except the Spirit of God.
Why doesnt Paul say the soul of man know his innermost thoughts? Because God formed the spirit in man to be his consciousness, his innermost thoughts and character reside within his spirit. No man knows the thoughts of that person but his own spirit that is in him. Wherever that breath goes, the consciousness of the man goes with it.
1 Corinthians 15:45 So also it is written, "The first man, Adam, became a living soul." The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.
AWESOME bro John!! :HeartThrob:
Made me think of the '' fulness of Christ bodily ''
Ephesians 4 Expanded Bible (EXB)
The Unity of the Body
4 [L Therefore,] As a prisoner [3:1] ·for [because I belong to; or in] the Lord, I urge you to ·live [walk] in a manner worthy of the calling ·you have received [L to which you were called].
2 ·Always be [or Be completely] humble, gentle, and patient, ·accepting [putting up/bearing with] each other in love.
3 Make every effort to preserve the unity ·of [provided by; available through] the Spirit ·in [through] the ·peace that joins us together [L bond of peace].
4 There is one body and one Spirit, and God called you to ·have one hope [L one hope of your calling]. 5 There is one Lord, one faith, and one baptism. 6 There is one God and Father of everything. ·He rules everything and is everywhere and is in everything [L ...who is over all and through all and in all].
7 Each one of us has been given the ·special gift of grace [L grace; or gift], ·showing how generous Christ is [or in proportion to Christ's gift; L according to the measure of Christ's gift].
8 That is why it says in the Scriptures,
"When he ·went up [ascended] to the heights,
he ·led a parade of captives [or took captives into captivity],
and he gave gifts to people [Ps. 68:18]."
9 When it says, "He ·went up [ascended]," what does it mean?
·It means [L ...except] that he first ·came down [descended] to the ·earth [or lower regions, namely the earth; or the depths of the earth; C probably refers to (1)
the Incarnation, though possibly (2) Christ's descent to Hades after his death (1 Pet. 3:19–20), or (3) Christ's descent through the Spirit at Pentecost (Acts 2)].
10 So the one who ·came down [descended] is the same one who ·went up [ascended] above all the heavens.
·Christ did that [L ...in order] to fill ·everything with his presence [L all things].
11 And ·Christ gave gifts to people—he made some to be apostles, some to be prophets, some to go and tell the Good News, and some to have the work of caring for and teaching God's people [L he himself gave apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors/shepherds, and teachers].
12 ·Christ gave those gifts to prepare [L ...to equip] God's holy people for the work of serving, to make the body of Christ stronger.
13 This work must continue until we ·are all joined together in the same faith [or all reach unity in the faith] and in the same knowledge of the Son of God.
We must become like ·a mature person [or the perfect Man; C Christ], ·growing until we become like Christ and have his perfection [L to the measure of the stature of Christ's fullness].
14 Then we will no longer be ·babies [children]. We will not be tossed about like a ship that the waves carry one way and then another. We will not be ·influenced by every new teaching [L carried along by every wind of (false) teaching] we hear from people who are trying to ·fool [trick] us. They ·make plans [scheme] and try any kind of trick to fool people into following ·the wrong path [error; false teaching].
15 ·No! [Instead; Rather] ·Speaking [or Living out; Practicing] the truth with love, we will grow up in every way into Christ, who is the head.
16 ·The whole body depends on Christ, and [L ...through/by whom] all the parts of the body are joined and held together.
Each ·part [supporting joint/ligament] ·does its own work [performs its function] to make the whole body grow and ·be strong with [to build itself up in] love.
Love is what makes the Body of CHRIST COMPLETE /perfect ..
Faith , hope and Love , Love being the perfect bond of Jesus peace !! :HeartThrob:
Matt 5 pure in heart shall see God and peacemakers called the children of God , Jesus speaks in MATT 5 and Paul expounds in Eph 4
I find this soooo true in the Way Jesus said Jerusalem Jerusalem , whom kill the prophets , How many times I would have gathered you , like a hen gathers her chicks under her wings ''to protect them from harm'' , but you were NOT willing , truly wisdom is justified of her children Proverbs 8 ...
It is Love and trust and not warring nor scattering from HIM :HeartThrob:
So, in other words, if you were a believer, you're alive when you're dead, and our dead loved ones are alive somewhere now wandering around, in heaven I guess, even though scripture says only Christ has immortality now. That sounds a lot like the zombies I keep seeing advertised but don't watch on TV. My last ex is from where some folks really believe in zombies, but I finally found out that phenomenon is caused by voodoo priests drugging their victims with poison from a local fish so they're temporarily paralyzed until they come out of the graves and scare the hell out of folks. I seem to be in the minority here, but I still believe you're dead when you're dead, as in oblivious, figuratively sleeping, unconscious, unseen, gone but not forgotten, until the resurrection when Christ wakes the dead, and the dead and living are snatched away together to meet Christ in the air to be with him always.
"Now we do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who are reposing, lest you may sorrow according as the rest, also, who have no expectation. For, if we are believing that Jesus died and rose, thus also, those who are put to repose, will God, through Jesus, lead forth together with Him. For this we are saying to you by the word of the Lord, that we, the living, who are surviving to the presence of the Lord, should by no means outstrip those who are put to repose, for the Lord Himself will be descending from heaven with a shout of command, with the voice of the Chief Messenger, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ shall be rising first. Thereupon we, the living who are surviving, shall at the same time be snatched away together with them in clouds, to meet the Lord in the air. And thus shall we always be together with the Lord. So that, console one another with these words." (1 Thessalonians 4:13-18)
I know you may think this is about the Father, but I think it's about Jesus Christ.
"I am charging you in the sight of God, Who is vivifying all, and of Jesus Christ, Who testifies in the ideal avowal before Pontius Pilate, that you keep this precept unspotted, irreprehensible, unto the advent of our Lord, Christ Jesus, which, to its own eras, the happy and only Potentate will be showing: He is King of kings and Lord of lords, Who alone has immortality, making His home in light inaccessible, Whom not one of mankind perceived nor can be perceiving, to Whom be honor and might eonian! Amen!" (1 Timothy 6:13-16)
If it's not about Jesus Christ, then I guess he's not immortalized, and he's not in heaven with the Father, but somehow all other dead believers are. There's something kind of strange about that picture if you ask me.
I understand that we're a "new creation," but I believe that's in a figurative sense until we are literally changed in the twinkle of an eye.
"Now if Christ is being heralded that He has been roused from among the dead, how are some among you saying that there is no resurrection of the dead? Now if there is no resurrection of the dead, neither has Christ been roused. Now if Christ has not been roused, for naught, consequently, is our heralding, and for naught is your faith. Now we are being found false witnesses also of God, seeing that we testify by God that He rouses Christ, Whom, consequently, He rouses not, if so be that the dead are not being roused. For, if the dead are not being roused, neither has Christ been roused. Now, if Christ has not been roused, vain is your faith--you are still in your sins! Consequently those also, who are put to repose in Christ, perished. If we are having an expectation in Christ in this life only, more forlorn than all men are we. (Yet now Christ has been roused from among the dead, the Firstfruit of those who are reposing. For since, in fact, through a man came death, through a Man, also, comes the resurrection of the dead. For even as, in Adam, all are dying, thus also, in Christ, shall all be vivified. Yet each in his own class: the Firstfruit, Christ; thereupon those who are Christ's in His presence; thereafter the consummation, whenever He may be giving up the kingdom to His God and Father, whenever He should be nullifying all sovereignty and all authority and power. For He must be reigning until He should be placing all His enemies under His feet. The last enemy is being abolished: death. For He subjects all under His feet. Now whenever He may be saying that all is subject, it is evident that it is outside of Him Who subjects all to Him. Now, whenever all may be subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also shall be subjected to Him Who subjects all to Him, that God may be All in all.) Else what shall those be doing who are baptizing? It is for the sake of the dead absolutely if the dead are not being roused. Why are they baptizing also for their sake? Why are we also in danger every hour? Daily am I dying. By this boast of yours, brethren, which I have in Christ Jesus, our Lord, if, as a man, I fight wild beasts in Ephesus, what is the benefit to me? If the dead are not being roused, "we may be eating and drinking, for tomorrow we are dying." Be not deceived: evil conversations are corrupting kind characters. Sober up justly and do not be sinning, for some have an ignorance of God. To abash you am I saying it. But someone will be protesting, "How are the dead being roused? Now with what body are they coming?" Imprudent one! What you are sowing is not being vivified if it should not be dying. And, what you are sowing, you are not sowing the body which shall come to be, but a naked kernel, perchance of wheat or some of the rest. Yet God is giving it a body according as He wills, and to each of the seeds its own body. Not all flesh is the same flesh, but there is one, indeed, of men, yet another flesh of beasts, yet another flesh of flyers, yet another of fishes. There are bodies celestial as well as bodies terrestrial. But a different glory, indeed, is that of the celestial, yet a different that of the terrestrial, another glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars, for star is excelling star in glory. Thus also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is roused in incorruption. It is sown in dishonor; it is roused in glory. It is sown in infirmity; it is roused in power. It is sown a soulish body; it is roused a spiritual body. If there is a soulish body, there is a spiritual also. Thus it is written also, The first man, Adam, "became a living soul:" the last Adam a vivifying Spirit. But not first the spiritual, but the soulish, thereupon the spiritual. The first man was out of the earth, soilish; the second Man is the Lord out of heaven. Such as the soilish one is, such are those also who are soilish, and such as the Celestial One, such are those also who are celestials. And according as we wear the image of the soilish, we should be wearing the image also of the Celestial. Now this I am averring, brethren, that flesh and blood is not able to enjoy an allotment in the kingdom of God, neither is corruption enjoying the allotment of incorruption. Lo! a secret to you am I telling! We all, indeed, shall not be put to repose, yet we all shall be changed, in an instant, in the twinkle of an eye, at the last trump. For He will be trumpeting, and the dead will be roused incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal put on immortality. Now, whenever this corruptible should be putting on incorruption and this mortal should be putting on immortality, then shall come to pass the word which is written, Swallowed up was Death by Victory. Where, O Death, is your victory? Where, O Death, is your sting?" (1 Corinthians 15:12-55)
That tells me that Jesus Christ was really dead and was roused from the dead just like what I believe will happen to all believers who die when they are roused from the dead by Jesus Christ and snatched away to meet him in the air which hasn't happened yet unless there's a bunch of us who think we're believers, but I guess we aren't because we got left behind when everybody else already got snatched away.
I'm not trying to offend anybody, but I think the idea that souls are inherently immortal is simply the philosophy of man not the truth of scripture. I realize that's an unpopular interpretation here on this forum, but that's what I believe.
I think you're alive until you die, and then you're really dead until you're given immortality in a spiritual body which I don't think any of you have yet or you wouldn't still be suffering from the effects of dying like we all are.
http://concordant.org/expohtml/DeathAndJudgment/WhatIsDeath.html
Quote from: Tom on May 07, 2015, 04:50:34 PM
So, in other words, if you were a believer, you're alive when you're dead, and our dead loved ones are alive somewhere now wondering around, in heaven I guess, even though scripture says only Christ has immortality now. That sounds a lot like the zombies I keep seeing advertised but don't watch on TV. My last ex is from where some folks really believe in zombies, but I finally found out that phenomenon is caused by voodoo priests drugging their victims with poison from a local fish so they're temporarily paralyzed until they come out of the graves and scare the hell out of folks. I seem to be in the minority here, but I still believe you're dead when you're dead, as in oblivious, figuratively sleeping, unconscious, unseen, gone but not forgotten, until the resurrection when Christ wakes the dead, and the dead and living are snatched away together to meet Christ in the air to be with him always.
"Now we do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who are reposing, lest you may sorrow according as the rest, also, who have no expectation. For, if we are believing that Jesus died and rose, thus also, those who are put to repose, will God, through Jesus, lead forth together with Him. For this we are saying to you by the word of the Lord, that we, the living, who are surviving to the presence of the Lord, should by no means outstrip those who are put to repose, for the Lord Himself will be descending from heaven with a shout of command, with the voice of the Chief Messenger, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ shall be rising first. Thereupon we, the living who are surviving, shall at the same time be snatched away together with them in clouds, to meet the Lord in the air. And thus shall we always be together with the Lord. So that, console one another with these words." (1 Thessalonians 4:13-18)
I know you think this is about the Father, but I think it's about Jesus Christ.
"I am charging you in the sight of God, Who is vivifying all, and of Jesus Christ, Who testifies in the ideal avowal before Pontius Pilate, that you keep this precept unspotted, irreprehensible, unto the advent of our Lord, Christ Jesus, which, to its own eras, the happy and only Potentate will be showing: He is King of kings and Lord of lords, Who alone has immortality, making His home in light inaccessible, Whom not one of mankind perceived nor can be perceiving, to Whom be honor and might eonian! Amen!" (1 Timothy 6:13-16)
If it's not about Jesus Christ, then I guess he's not immortalized, and he's not in heaven with the Father, but somehow all other dead believers are. There's something kind of strange about that picture if you ask me.
I understand that we're a "new creation," but I believe that's in a figurative sense until we are literally changed in the twinkle of an eye.
"Now if Christ is being heralded that He has been roused from among the dead, how are some among you saying that there is no resurrection of the dead? Now if there is no resurrection of the dead, neither has Christ been roused. Now if Christ has not been roused, for naught, consequently, is our heralding, and for naught is your faith. Now we are being found false witnesses also of God, seeing that we testify by God that He rouses Christ, Whom, consequently, He rouses not, if so be that the dead are not being roused. For, if the dead are not being roused, neither has Christ been roused. Now, if Christ has not been roused, vain is your faith--you are still in your sins! Consequently those also, who are put to repose in Christ, perished. If we are having an expectation in Christ in this life only, more forlorn than all men are we. (Yet now Christ has been roused from among the dead, the Firstfruit of those who are reposing. For since, in fact, through a man came death, through a Man, also, comes the resurrection of the dead. For even as, in Adam, all are dying, thus also, in Christ, shall all be vivified. Yet each in his own class: the Firstfruit, Christ; thereupon those who are Christ's in His presence; thereafter the consummation, whenever He may be giving up the kingdom to His God and Father, whenever He should be nullifying all sovereignty and all authority and power. For He must be reigning until He should be placing all His enemies under His feet. The last enemy is being abolished: death. For He subjects all under His feet. Now whenever He may be saying that all is subject, it is evident that it is outside of Him Who subjects all to Him. Now, whenever all may be subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also shall be subjected to Him Who subjects all to Him, that God may be All in all.) Else what shall those be doing who are baptizing? It is for the sake of the dead absolutely if the dead are not being roused. Why are they baptizing also for their sake? Why are we also in danger every hour? Daily am I dying. By this boast of yours, brethren, which I have in Christ Jesus, our Lord, if, as a man, I fight wild beasts in Ephesus, what is the benefit to me? If the dead are not being roused, "we may be eating and drinking, for tomorrow we are dying." Be not deceived: evil conversations are corrupting kind characters. Sober up justly and do not be sinning, for some have an ignorance of God. To abash you am I saying it. But someone will be protesting, "How are the dead being roused? Now with what body are they coming?" Imprudent one! What you are sowing is not being vivified if it should not be dying. And, what you are sowing, you are not sowing the body which shall come to be, but a naked kernel, perchance of wheat or some of the rest. Yet God is giving it a body according as He wills, and to each of the seeds its own body. Not all flesh is the same flesh, but there is one, indeed, of men, yet another flesh of beasts, yet another flesh of flyers, yet another of fishes. There are bodies celestial as well as bodies terrestrial. But a different glory, indeed, is that of the celestial, yet a different that of the terrestrial, another glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars, for star is excelling star in glory. Thus also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is roused in incorruption. It is sown in dishonor; it is roused in glory. It is sown in infirmity; it is roused in power. It is sown a soulish body; it is roused a spiritual body. If there is a soulish body, there is a spiritual also. Thus it is written also, The first man, Adam, "became a living soul:" the last Adam a vivifying Spirit. But not first the spiritual, but the soulish, thereupon the spiritual. The first man was out of the earth, soilish; the second Man is the Lord out of heaven. Such as the soilish one is, such are those also who are soilish, and such as the Celestial One, such are those also who are celestials. And according as we wear the image of the soilish, we should be wearing the image also of the Celestial. Now this I am averring, brethren, that flesh and blood is not able to enjoy an allotment in the kingdom of God, neither is corruption enjoying the allotment of incorruption. Lo! a secret to you am I telling! We all, indeed, shall not be put to repose, yet we all shall be changed, in an instant, in the twinkle of an eye, at the last trump. For He will be trumpeting, and the dead will be roused incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal put on immortality. Now, whenever this corruptible should be putting on incorruption and this mortal should be putting on immortality, then shall come to pass the word which is written, Swallowed up was Death by Victory. Where, O Death, is your victory? Where, O Death, is your sting?" (1 Corinthians 15:12-55)
That tells me that Jesus Christ was really dead and was roused from the dead just like what I believe will happen to all believers who die when they are roused from the dead by Jesus Christ and snatched away to meet him in the air which hasn't happened yet unless there's a bunch of us who think we're believers, but I guess we aren't because we got left behind when everybody else already got snatched away.
I'm not trying to offend anybody, but I think the idea that souls are inherently immortal is simply the philosophy of man not the truth of scripture. I realize that's an unpopular interpretation here on this forum, but that's what I believe.
I think you're alive until you die, and then you're really dead until you're given immortality in a spiritual body which I don't think any of you have yet or you wouldn't still be suffering from the effects of dying like we all are.
http://concordant.org/expohtml/DeathAndJudgment/WhatIsDeath.html
:thumbsup: :dsunny:
EW :thumbsup: that how I see it,too. that's all part of the fallen nature[first Adam/die] condition..and the raising up in
Christ[life giving spirit] last man Adam. surely the SAVIOUR SAVES THOSE CONDEMNED TO DIE [do not eat/all in first Adam]
BY MY SPIRIT!!!!!!![ALL IN LAST ADAM/CHRIST]
SOME DO NOT BELIEVE ...some believe but not to the salvation of the soul... the soul's saviour is the life-giving spirit........
for the spirit in Christ cries out...AT last! bone of my bone and flesh of my flesh...and no man ever hated his own flesh..but feeds
and cherishes it[these words I speak are spirit and truth].
Jesus as kinsman redeemer..brought up seed for his dead brother Adam [the woman's seed shall bruise the serpents head]
I realized that I had to correct my typo "wondering" to "wandering" even though those zombies are probably wondering what's up because they're supposed to be dead.
Quote from: eaglesway on May 07, 2015, 06:42:47 AM
The way I see it is, the first man Adam was a living soul. The last Adam is Christ, a life-giving spirit. If anyone be in Christ Jesus he is a new creation.
When we are born from above the portal of the heart opens to the heavens, the veil is removed from over the consciousness, and the Spirit of God descends and dwells over the mercy-seat(heart). The spirit of the man is vivified at that point, he is a new creature within. There is a process that remains in spreading that "newness" throughout, culminating in the redemption of our bodies, our adoption as sons. To begin, newborn, we cry Abba Father, little children in the spirit of adoption, in the end we will rejoice as "many sons unto glory".
The teaching that the spirit of man is only the breath of God could possibly be true for the unredeemed, they have not been made new. They are not in Christ, the life-giving spirit. They are still in Adam, the living soul. Those who are in Christ are life-giving spirits, children of the Most High- many brethren unto glory, many branches in one live giving Vine.
Numbers 16:22 But they fell on their faces and said, "O God, God of the spirits of all flesh, when one man sins, will You be angry with the entire congregation?"
Numbers 27:16 "May the Lord, the God of the spirits of all flesh, appoint a man over the congregation,
God is the God of the spirits of all flesh.
Psalm 32:2 How blessed is the man to whom the Lord does not impute iniquity, And in whose spirit there is no deceit!
Can a breath be deceitful? Does it choose truth or lie?
Proverbs 17:27 He who restrains his words has knowledge, And he who has a cool spirit is a man of understanding.
How does a man have any wisdom in remaining cool? if his spirit is just a breath having no person within it? Deos not the Spirit of God carry the person of God wherever it goes?
Proverbs 20:27 The spirit of man is the lamp of the Lord, Searching all the innermost parts of his being.
How does a breath search the innermost parts? Is it not the conscience(Rom 1) that will be revealed when hearts are searched on the Day? The word conscience is actually consciousness.
Proverbs 29:23 A man's pride will bring him low, But a humble spirit will obtain honor.
Can a breathe be humble or arrogant, and how do you judge the breath for being so, one way or another unless it is connected to the person and character of that person.
Zechariah 12:1 The burden of the word of the Lord concerning Israel. Thus declares the Lord who stretches out the heavens, lays the foundation of the earth, and forms the spirit of man within him,
God forms the spirit in man, and He forms it to be the consciousness of the man, knowing his innermost thoughts, even as God's Spirit searches out His own innermost thoughts
1 Corinthians 2:11 For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so the thoughts of God no one knows except the Spirit of God.
Why doesnt Paul say the soul of man know his innermost thoughts? Because God formed the spirit in man to be his consciousness, his innermost thoughts and character reside within his spirit. No man knows the thoughts of that person but his own spirit that is in him. Wherever that breath goes, the consciousness of the man goes with it.
1 Corinthians 15:45 So also it is written, "The first man, Adam, became a living soul." The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.
Just seems odd to me anyway, how the words breath and spirit are interchanged to how it fits what we deem to believe. Just my :2c: :HeartThrob:
...well..as far as the 'wandering' zombies go...or otherwise known as the night of the living dead..... do you not know their
life is sustained[having no life in themselves] by drinking the blood of the living[one] and eating the flesh of the living[one]?
I think their life is sustained by Hollywood, sis.
Deut 26;5 Then you shall declare before the Lord your God...' MY FATHER[first Adam] WAS A WANDERING ARAMEAN "
Yeah, well, I've done plenty of wandering myself in my crazy life, but I think I'm still alive even though a lot of folks have been surprised about that along the way including me.
Quote from: Tom on May 07, 2015, 05:49:45 PM
I think their life is sustained by Hollywood, sis.
Now Tom lets not throw logic and common sense into this :2c:
QuoteSo, in other words, if you were a believer, you're alive when you're dead, and our dead loved ones are alive somewhere now wandering around, in heaven I guess, even though scripture says only Christ has immortality now. That sounds a lot like the zombies
I keep seeing advertised but don't watch on TV. My last ex is from where some folks really believe in zombies, but I finally found out that phenomenon is caused by voodoo priests drugging their victims with poison from a local fish so they're temporarily paralyzed until they come out of the graves and scare the hell out of folks
. I seem to be in the minority here, but I still believe you're dead when you're dead, as in oblivious, figuratively sleeping, unconscious, unseen, gone but not forgotten, until the resurrection when Christ wakes the dead, and the dead and living are snatched away together to meet Christ in the air to be with him always.
Dear Tom ,
After reading some of your post , it need some spaces lol :laughing7:
I dont think you understand what some of us are saying at all , and that is not your fault
Mainly the power the Cross of Christ has over death DEFEATED !! FINISHED DONE JESUS CHRIST IS THE LORD OF THE DEAD AND LIVING RIGHT NOW
This seems to be the main flaw I can see in those writings you keep sharing and keep saying denying there are any sons of God being born yet and only Jesus is the one and Him alone , in the sense that HE IS JUST SITTING UP THERE WAITING FOR EONS , 2 MORE EONS ? :eek:
They deny the power of the resurrection for anyone and only JESUS CHRIST for now , which is odd to me , BECAUSE CHRIST IS GATHERING INTO HIMSELF THE DEAD AND THE LIVING MAKING ALIVE FOR THE FATHER GOD IS THE GOD OF THE LIVING on earth as it is in heaven
and to be honest I think you ar and Micah are really missing out .. :sigh: with worldly wisdom and the teachings of men
James 1
16 My ·dear [beloved] brothers and sisters [C fellow believers],
do not be ·fooled [deceived] about this. 17 Every good ·action [or act of giving] and every perfect gift ·is from God [L comes from above]. These good gifts come down from the ·Creator of the sun, moon, and stars [L the father of lights; C
referring to God's creation of the heavenly bodies (Gen. 1:14–19; Ps. 136:7–9; Jer. 31:35)],
who does not change like their shifting shadows. 18
God ·decided [chose; willed] to give us ·life [birth] through the ·word of truth [true message] so we might be ·the most important [or the first of many; L a kind of firstfruits; C firstfruits were the first crops to be harvested and guaranteed the coming harvest; Ex. 34:22; 2 Thess. 2:13; Rev. 14:4] of all ·the things he made [or his creatures]. They are just as the stars messengers speaking what the Spirit is saying to them , just as we are messengers sharing what the Spirit is teaching and saying to us we change by Gods design not of ourselves
I would love to simplify this , into the ages stages and 3 days Jesus spoke of
being the age /eon sin reigned till Moses and than death reigned till Christ now Life reigns :2c:
Thanks, sis, but I'll pass on "worldly wisdom." I apologize for not using paragraphs like I guess I should, but I just let the stuff flow out of my head in a steady stream and don't think about breaking it up. You know, the ancient manuscripts are just a bunch of letters all crammed together with no caps, and they don't even break up the words or have punctuation. At least I stick a few commas and periods in there for you, and I even capitalize a few letters. I understand what you're saying. I just don't agree that means that the dead are alive.
"Christ does not commission me to be baptizing, but to be bringing the evangel, not in wisdom of word, lest the cross of Christ may be made void. For the word of the cross is stupidity, indeed, to those who are perishing, yet to us who are being saved it is the power of God. For it is written, I shall be destroying the wisdom of the wise, and the understanding of the intelligent shall I be repudiating. Where is the wise? Where is the scribe? Where is the discusser of this eon? Does not God make stupid the wisdom of this world? For since, in fact, in the wisdom of God, the world through wisdom knew not God, God delights, through the stupidity of the heralding, to save those who are believing, since, in fact, Jews signs are requesting, and Greeks wisdom are seeking, yet we are heralding Christ crucified, to Jews, indeed, a snare, yet to the nations stupidity, yet to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ, the power of God and the wisdom of God, for the stupidity of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men. For you are observing your calling, brethren, that there are not many wise according to the flesh; not many powerful, not many noble, but the stupidity of the world God chooses, that He may be disgracing the wise, and the weakness of the world God chooses, that He may be disgracing the strong, and the ignoble and the contemptible things of the world God chooses, and that which is not, that He should be discarding that which is, so that no flesh at all should be boasting in God's sight. Yet you, of Him, are in Christ Jesus, Who became to us wisdom from God, besides righteousness and holiness and deliverance, that, according as it is written, He who is boasting, in the Lord let him be boasting. And I, coming to you, brethren, came not with superiority of word or of wisdom, announcing to you the testimony of God, for I decide not to perceive anything among you except Jesus Christ and Him crucified. And I came to be with you in weakness, and in fear, and in much trembling, and my word and my heralding were not with the persuasive words of human wisdom, but with demonstration of spirit and of power, that your faith may not be in the wisdom of men but in the power of God. Yet wisdom are we speaking among the mature, yet a wisdom not of this eon, neither of the chief men of this eon, who are being discarded, but we are speaking God's wisdom in a secret, wisdom which has been concealed, which God designates before--before the eons, for our glory, which not one of the chief men of this eon knows, for if they know, they would not crucify the Lord of glory. But, according as it is written, That which the eye did not perceive, and the ear did not hear, and to which the heart of man did not ascend--whatever God makes ready for those who are loving Him. Yet to us God reveals them through His spirit, for the spirit is searching all, even the depths of God. For is any of humanity acquainted with that which is human except the spirit of humanity which is in it? Thus also, that which is of God no one knows, except the spirit of God. Now we obtained, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God, that we may be perceiving that which is being graciously given to us by God, which we are speaking also, not with words taught by human wisdom, but with those taught by the spirit, matching spiritual blessings with spiritual words. Now the soulish man is not receiving those things which are of the spirit of God, for they are stupidity to him, and he is not able to know them, seeing that they are spiritually examined. Now he who is spiritual is, indeed, examining all, yet he is being examined by no one. For who knew the mind of the Lord? Who will be deducing from Him? Yet we have the mind of Christ." (1 Corinthians 1:17-2:16)
Quote from: micah7:9 on May 07, 2015, 05:40:17 PM
Just seems odd to me anyway, how the words breath and spirit are interchanged to how it fits what we deem to believe. Just my :2c: :HeartThrob:
Nothing was interchanged with anything. All those verses are in the Bible, and their content and context is "spirit". Does a breath think?
But I am not saying breath never fits either. We like to say a word must be ether this or that, as it fits our belief. I am only saying the word cannot be limited to "breath", especially in th verses I listed. In John 3:8 it is "wind". I think no one will ever switch Holy Spirit to Holy Breath :o) :2c:
"Let no one be deluding himself. If anyone among you is presuming to be wise in this eon, let him become stupid, that he may be becoming wise, for the wisdom of this world is stupidity with God. For it is written, "He is clutching the wise in their craftiness." And again, The Lord knows the reasonings of the wise, that they are vain." (1 Corinthians 3:18-20)
Quote from: Tom on May 07, 2015, 07:14:42 PM
"Let no one be deluding himself. If anyone among you is presuming to be wise in this eon, let him become stupid, that he may be becoming wise, for the wisdom of this world is stupidity with God. For it is written, "He is clutching the wise in their craftiness." And again, The Lord knows the reasonings of the wise, that they are vain." (1 Corinthians 3:18-20)
I do believe we both agree with this Tom :thumbsup:
May the Lord is Grace be a showing us His truth by His spirit :HeartThrob:
Amen to that, sis.
Ecclesiastes 9:3
This is an evil among all things that are done under the sun, that there is one event unto all: yea, also the heart of the sons of men is full of evil, and madness is in their heart while they live, and after that they go to the dead.
Quote from: rosered on May 07, 2015, 07:18:28 PM
Quote from: Tom on May 07, 2015, 07:14:42 PM
"Let no one be deluding himself. If anyone among you is presuming to be wise in this eon, let him become stupid, that he may be becoming wise, for the wisdom of this world is stupidity with God. For it is written, "He is clutching the wise in their craftiness." And again, The Lord knows the reasonings of the wise, that they are vain." (1 Corinthians 3:18-20)
I do believe we both agree with this Tom :thumbsup:
May the Lord is Grace be a showing us His truth by His spirit :HeartThrob:
Or should He be showing us truth by His breath? :o)
I think the Hebrew and Greek words for spirit and breath are, as has been said, interpreted according to context. I think the breath of God that gives us life is by implication spirit, the power of life, action, and intelligence.
Who will be deducing from Him?
Wow it seems to me in some places the Concordant just went way out of their way to be obscure.
Quote from: eaglesway on May 07, 2015, 07:24:48 PM
Quote from: rosered on May 07, 2015, 07:18:28 PM
Quote from: Tom on May 07, 2015, 07:14:42 PM
"Let no one be deluding himself. If anyone among you is presuming to be wise in this eon, let him become stupid, that he may be becoming wise, for the wisdom of this world is stupidity with God. For it is written, "He is clutching the wise in their craftiness." And again, The Lord knows the reasonings of the wise, that they are vain." (1 Corinthians 3:18-20)
I do believe we both agree with this Tom :thumbsup:
May the Lord is Grace be a showing us His truth by His spirit :HeartThrob:
Or should He be showing us truth by His breath? :o)
Joh 20:22 and this having said, he breathed[spirited] on them , and saith to them, `Receive the Holy Spirit; :o)
I agree that their language takes a little getting used to, but I think they've tried to get the best meaning of the text even if it ends up sounding strange to us sometimes.
Quote from: eaglesway on May 07, 2015, 07:28:02 PM
Who will be deducing from Him?
Wow it seems to me in some places the Concordant just went way out of their way to be obscure.
That's why I try to use the Concordant more for reference. I just finished reading the CLV from Acts to Rev. I found it quite hard to read, but I am a slow reader and comprehender. :Peace2:
In John 20:22 "breathed" is "enephysessen", from en phusa, "to blow". Spirit is pneuma :o)
Quote from: eaglesway on May 07, 2015, 07:24:48 PM
Quote from: rosered on May 07, 2015, 07:18:28 PM
Quote from: Tom on May 07, 2015, 07:14:42 PM
"Let no one be deluding himself. If anyone among you is presuming to be wise in this eon, let him become stupid, that he may be becoming wise, for the wisdom of this world is stupidity with God. For it is written, "He is clutching the wise in their craftiness." And again, The Lord knows the reasonings of the wise, that they are vain." (1 Corinthians 3:18-20)
I do believe we both agree with this Tom :thumbsup:
May the Lord is Grace be a showing us His truth by His spirit :HeartThrob:
Or should He be showing us truth by His breath? :o)
:laughing7: Yes it would seem the Spirit of truth has a powerful breath , but not just contained to that one expression ! OH so much more than that !!!
:HeartThrob: When Jesus shows Himself to His followers and when he breaths on them wow !!
John 20 19 When it was evening on the first day of the week, Jesus' ·followers [disciples] were together.
The doors were ·locked [shut], because they were afraid of ·the elders [the Jewish leaders; L the Jews].
Then Jesus came and stood right in the middle of them and said, "Peace be with you."
20
After he said this, he showed them his hands and his side. His ·followers [disciples] ·were thrilled [rejoiced] when they saw the Lord.21 Then Jesus said to them again, "Peace be with you. As the Father sent me, I now send you."
22
After he said this, he breathed on them [Gen. 2:7] and said, "Receive the Holy Spirit. 23 If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven. If you ·don't forgive them [withhold forgiveness; L retain the sins of any; Matt. 16:19; 18:18], they are not forgiven." we are given that same Holy Spirit as a guarantee and seal of approval to teach and correct and comfort and the power of being able to overcome the world with Christ within us , greater is He whom is in you than in the world !!
Prohibiting and Permitting
18 "And so I tell all of you: what you prohibit on earth will be prohibited in heaven, and what you permit on earth will be permitted in heaven.
Matthew 18:18 (HCSB) | In Context | Whole Chapter
18 I assure you: Whatever you bind on earth is already bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth is already loosed in heaven.
Matthew 18:18 (ICB) | In Context | Whole Chapter
18 "I tell you the truth. The things you don't allow on earth will be the things God does not allow. The things you allow on earth will be the things that God allows.
Matthew 18:18 (ISV) | In Context | Whole Chapter
18 "I tell all of you with certainty, whatever you prohibit on earth will have been prohibited in heaven, and whatever you permit on earth will have been permitted in heaven.
Matthew 18:18 (PHILLIPS) | In Context | Whole Chapter
The connection between earthly conduct and spiritual reality
18 "Believe me, whatever you forbid upon earth will be what is forbidden in Heaven, and whatever you permit on earth will be what is permitted in Heaven."
Matthew 18:18 (JUB) | In Context | Whole Chapter
18 Verily I say unto you, Whatever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in the heaven; and whatever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in the heaven.
Matthew 18:18 (KJV) | In Context | Whole Chapter
18 Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
Matthew 18:18 (AKJV) | In Context | Whole Chapter
18 Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
Matthew 18:18 (LEB) | In Context | Whole Chapter
18 "Truly I say to you, whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you release on earth will be released in heaven.
Matthew 18:18 (TLB) | In Context | Whole Chapter
18 And I tell you this—whatever you bind on earth is bound in heaven, and whatever you free on earth will be freed in heaven.
Matthew 18:18 (NOG) | In Context | Whole Chapter
18 I can guarantee this truth: Whatever you imprison, God will imprison. And whatever you set free, God will set free.
what is in mans hearts are being exposed right here in the earth as we judge so shall we be judged
If you compare the other versions in the Interlinear Scripture Analyzer, I think you'll see that the Concordant Version actually makes more sense. See the attachment.
The Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary definition of "deduce" is:
"to use logic or reason to form (a conclusion or opinion about something) : to decide (something) after thinking about the known facts"
[attachment deleted by admin]
wow I was typing this above and you guys already there !!!
where two or 3 are gathered in MY NAME i am in the midst of them !!! :HeartThrob:
Quote from: micah7:9 on May 07, 2015, 07:35:10 PM
Quote from: eaglesway on May 07, 2015, 07:28:02 PM
Who will be deducing from Him?
Wow it seems to me in some places the Concordant just went way out of their way to be obscure.
That's why I try to use the Concordant more for reference. I just finished reading the CLV from Acts to Rev. I found it quite hard to read, but I am a slow reader and comprehender. :Peace2:
I find it difficult too!!
Way to vague for me
I actually love the expanded bible , it has many simple but other comparisons that add to a study in my opinion
and the references of course :icon_flower:
A matter of opinion, certainly. :o)
Translation is about thoughts, as well as words. If you lose the flowing expression of thoughts in overpursuing the words, you lose meaning.
But I see what Micah wrote. Perhaps the Concordant is meant more for researching words than reading.
Quote from: eaglesway on May 07, 2015, 07:37:18 PM
In John 20:22 "breathed" is "enephysessen", from en phusa, "to blow". Spirit is pneuma :o)
:sigh: :HeartThrob:
When I first switched from the King James to Young's Literal Translation, it seemed strange too, and then it was even stranger when I switched to the Concordant Version. But now I don't even think about the literal language, and I think it's a small sacrifice for the truth.
Micah, look up "spirit" in the Keyword Concordance at the end of your Concordant Literal New Testament, and see what it says. If you have the paperback without it, here's the PDF file.
http://concordant.org/online/index.html
Here's a screenshot. See the attachment.
[attachment deleted by admin]
"And at the fulfillment of the day of Pentecost they were all alike in the same place. And suddenly there came out of heaven a blare, even as of a violent, carrying blast, and it fills the whole house where they were sitting." (Acts 2:1,2)
I know there was some hesitance to accept this word before. So I include the definition again.
The Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary definition of "blast" is:
"a mass of air that moves very quickly and forcefully"
I like to read any version with an interlinear open. I believe the Concordant is as flawed in places, as are they all, so I use them all as parralels and check the differences in interlinears and lexicons to see if I can iron out the wrinkles to my own satisfaction. I have seen several places where it seems to me the Concordant is a vessel of Knoch's theology rather than a translation (as are they all at one point or another because translators are theologically flawed).
I dont think blast works well across all usages of pneuma. For instance.
1 Cor 2:10 ,11
But God has revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searches all things, yea, the deep things of God.
For what man knows the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God no man knows, but the Spirit of God.
Replace Spirit with blast, and I dont think it translates the thought at all.
To me, that is the test. How well the word chosen to represent the thought fits all usages and contexts.
I agree that everything that comes through humans is imperfect. That's why there are so many errors in all the ancient manuscripts, but the truth still comes through. I use the Interlinear Scripture Analyzer even though I've personally proofread the New Testament section of the Concordant Literal Version module and started on the Old Testament but was told to forget it because a new one was coming. While doing so, I saw a lot of typos but helped to correct them. Unfortunately the Old Testament section replacement is delayed because the author is working on a Concordant Version module for eSword right now which will be the first one from the Concordant folks and badly needed because the ones out there haven't even updated the New Testament section. I like the ISA because it compares the King James, Young's Literal Translation, and the Concordant Version with the ancient text and an ultra-literal translation. I don't think there is a perfect translation because something is always lost in translation, but I think the Concordant Version is the best I've seen.
We've already established the importance of context, right?
That's what was said about "spirit" vs. "breath."
The whole theory behind the Concordant Version is to be consistent with the definition as much as possible except when allowing variation for the sake of idiom.
As far as Knoch's theology goes, I've read all the Concordant writings, and though much of it was different than what I used to believe when I first read it, I now think it all makes sense. We all have a "theology" or "ideology" or "philosophy" or "worldview" or "perspective" or "viewpoint," but I don't think that means we should ignore what anybody else says. We obviously don't all agree with each other, but it's interesting to compare what we believe with each other.
I read a number of versions, referencing the concordant ISA program as the closest translation, even the Concordant New Testament falling short of it.. i like the interlinear, and the ISA program is the best one I've used yet.. When seeking that true meaning, I believe mostly it comes through from the Spirit of God. There are times when seeking in the interlinear, I will find it reflects the sense I was expecting..
I read the scripture, except for specific study, but daily reading in ways geared to help me to `enter the story`- this, to me, for myself is the most important way.. I want to be in the word, and the word in me, and abiding.. I used to read one gospel per season, for instance (4 gospels / 4 seasons) but now I read a blend of (mostly) two, blended together, on a six month schedule.. Acts and Revelation have weekly readings.. and the letters of the new testament, I read through the year, in order believed written in 365 readings.. I want the letters in my mind to always be lined up with Acts.. and after, in the proper perspective..
I don't believe I have a hard time reading the original intent of verses, when I do I read the same verses in the concordant, or better yet the interlinear.. And also in my regular reading I often read the same in the Concordant.. I also want to be able to quote the KJ and the NIV as those are the most commonly known.. And by knowing their versions, can locate a verse using regular concordances.. for locating the verse..
I am loving the ISA program (interlinear) as before then I was using one I purchased from the Watchtower, though I was never affiliated.. :smile:
Quote from: Tom on May 07, 2015, 08:36:58 PM
As far as Knoch's theology goes, I've read all the Concordant writings, and though much of it was different than what I used to believe when I first read it, I now think it all makes sense. We all have a "theology" or "ideology" or "philosophy" or "worldview" or "perspective" or "viewpoint," but I don't think that means we should ignore what anybody else says. We obviously don't all agree with each other, but it's interesting to compare what we believe with each other.
I totally agree with you Tom , is good to keep and open mind and heart , knowledge is knowledge and it comes to its own fruition
reap what we sow , so to speak , I am not saying i am right in everything I share , its just what is in my heart and sharing it , just as you brother , this is all ..
But LOVE NEVER FAILS ANY OF US :HeartThrob:
Quote from: eaglesway on May 07, 2015, 08:13:24 PM
I like to read any version with an interlinear open. I believe the Concordant is as flawed in places, as are they all, so I use them all as parralels and check the differences in interlinears and lexicons to see if I can iron out the wrinkles to my own satisfaction. I have seen several places where it seems to me the Concordant is a vessel of Knoch's theology rather than a translation (as are they all at one point or another because translators are theologically flawed).
:iagree:
Quote from: Tom on May 07, 2015, 08:36:58 PM
As far as Knoch's theology goes, I've read all the Concordant writings, and though much of it was different than what I used to believe when I first read it, I now think it all makes sense. We all have a "theology" or "ideology" or "philosophy" or "worldview" or "perspective" or "viewpoint," but I don't think that means we should ignore what anybody else says. We obviously don't all agree with each other, but it's interesting to compare what we believe with each other.
:iagree: :iagree: especially with "it's interesting to compare what we believe with each other."
I am always assuming that each one bases their thoughts on what they perceive the Word is saying.. or from a particular 'level' of it, namely inner or outer, mostly - as I believe the Word is both; and whereas I tend to focus on the outer, total universe/creation plan of God mostly because I feel that is the answers the world is seeking these days, others may focus a bit more on how the plan of God impacts us within.. therefor I believe most can be pretty much synchronized.. most, likely not all..
But to me, the important thing is we are all being transformed into His image and likeness, and especially, His character.. His character being it.. the goal post.. If this forum is any indication, UR seems to bear good fruit when it comes to dialog and sharing.. Argumentativeness and condescension seems to be so much more less than what is found (possibly at) some other places..
"esteeming others as better than yourself" or at least equal! goes a long way in letting dialog and ideas flow.. And really, it's not our job to convince others of `truth`.. that is the Holy Spirit's 'job'! Discussing things i believe is beneficial.. And one day I believe we will all speak with one tongue - the word. :smile:
:thumbsup:
I say thumbs up to all that is being said :dsunny:
I love the Holy Spirit of truth teaching us what is right in the sight of God and that is what matters most to all of us .
pleasing HIM :HeartThrob:
Right, I think, even though we all see things a little differently, it's good to share with each other, and we're all just students of the word of God. We're blessed to be able to get together even if we make each other crazy sometimes. I never mean to offend or claim any authority. I'm just figuring it all out as I go along sometimes getting flashes of new revelation or remembering something in a different light. God bless ya all.
Quote from: marie glen on May 07, 2015, 08:59:05 PM
Quote from: Tom on May 07, 2015, 08:36:58 PM
As far as Knoch's theology goes, I've read all the Concordant writings, and though much of it was different than what I used to believe when I first read it, I now think it all makes sense. We all have a "theology" or "ideology" or "philosophy" or "worldview" or "perspective" or "viewpoint," but I don't think that means we should ignore what anybody else says. We obviously don't all agree with each other, but it's interesting to compare what we believe with each other.
:iagree: :iagree: especially with "it's interesting to compare what we believe with each other."
I am always assuming that each one bases their thoughts on what they perceive the Word is saying.. or from a particular 'level' of it, namely inner or outer, mostly - as I believe the Word is both; and whereas I tend to focus on the outer, total universe/creation plan of God mostly because I feel that is the answers the world is seeking these days, others may focus a bit more on how the plan of God impacts us within.. therefor I believe most can be pretty much synchronized.. most, likely not all..
But to me, the important thing is we are all being transformed into His image and likeness, and especially, His character.. His character being it.. the goal post.. If this forum is any indication, UR seems to bear good fruit when it comes to dialog and sharing.. Argumentativeness and condescension seems to be so much more less than what is found (possibly at) some other places..
"esteeming others as better than yourself" or at least equal! goes a long way in letting dialog and ideas flow.. And really, it's not our job to convince others of `truth`.. that is the Holy Spirit's 'job'! Discussing things i believe is beneficial.. And one day I believe we will all speak with one tongue - the word. :smile:
I agree Tom. I value Knoch's theology, I was just making a point about translations. The Bible is not much more than an idol for many. The fact that we can share our views from diffefent perspectives is a posiive thing, especially since we share Christ crucified and the salvation of all. That is a lot. I think it is the reason we can share our differences. There is a reverence that comes with the knowledge that Christ was crucified for each of us.
And certainly, Marie, being transformed into His image is the beauty of that gospel, and the goalpost we will all get kicked through when all is said and done LOLOL.
I am just so glad you said that John !
Making the Bible and idol .
Its written , that God come down in Gen 11 and confounded the languages on purpose . the tower of Babel and we still have this happening to this very day !
Those building a tower to heaven together and doing it without God included or by just using His name only .. of their own doings and calling it, '' inspired from God ''.
When He really wants a one on one relationship with every one of us .
Being a friend of God was a honor that Abram even to this day its written about , because He believed and obeyed and mostly trusted God though everything he was living though in this world
God gave His life a purpose and meaning and made Abraham blessed and a father of many nations and example of what real faith means to help us
understand , what pleases God .
The whole bible is about examples to help us trust God though the best and worst of circumstances in this life by all those who came before us .
Abraham had no bible to read and He done well in the presence of God . :HeartThrob:
Quote from: eaglesway on May 08, 2015, 08:58:56 AM
The Bible is not much more than an idol for many.
Then surely one lives in the shadow of God
For if one lived in the Light of the God in Christ
Then one could never raise an idol to such status
That it should be called by the most Sacred Name of all.
A temple is built round the idol
Casting further shadow blocking the Light
As the Light of the God in Christ
Are words to be repeated.
The treasures of the temple are bound
In which one must tarry and abide
Until the shadow no longer satisfies
And the Light of God in Christ is sought.
Quote from: rosered on May 08, 2015, 12:25:16 PM
I am just so glad you said that John !
Making the Bible and idol .
Its written , that God come down in Gen 11 and confounded the languages on purpose . the tower of Babel and we still have this happening to this very day !
Those building a tower to heaven together and doing it without God included or by just using His name only .. of their own doings and calling it, " inspired from God ".
When He really wants a one on one relationship with every one of us .
Being a friend of God was a honor that Abram even to this day its written about , because He believed and obeyed and mostly trusted God though everything he was living though in this world
God gave His life a purpose and meaning and made Abraham blessed and a father of many nations and example of what real faith means to help us
understand , what pleases God .
The whole bible is about examples to help us trust God though the best and worst of circumstances in this life by all those who came before us .
Abraham had no bible to read and He done well in the presence of God . :HeartThrob:
Yes, and it appears our language is still quite confounded, which indicates that we have not yet heard clearly the one voice. Still building towers, I guess.
"That you may be one, even as I and the Father are one- I in the Father and the Father in Me and I in you."
Amen , God bless :flowerred:
Quote'I am concerned about your family, because you do not warn your children for an eternal hell. This makes the choice for God too open-ended / non-committal'. Our friend thinks because we teach our children UR, they are laid back about following God.
A really good qustion! I would counter this with a relatively simple but also a harsh argument.
Wich God do you serve?
If hes name is Yahweh, do you not follow Yahwehs commandments?
Where in the
OLD TESTAMANENT does Yahwe speak of the "wages of sin being eternal torture in a dark pit?"
"But Jesus said..."
Did Jesus
REALLY say that? You know, the words of
ONE MAN can rather easily be twisted to suit
POLITICAL IDEALS!Like Gehenna meaning Hell, when the Greek equivalent for that would be
HADES!Especially by a Pagan sun worshipping emperor who claims that the
SON GOD APOLLO came to him in a dream before a crucial battle and gave him
HIS INSIGNIA on wich to follow him to victory!
http://kahalyahweh.net/Articles/chirho.htm
Jesus said so...Yeah, and ofcourse your King James bible will tell you that! You know, the one based on
LATIN VULGATE!http://egregores.blogspot.fi/2010/10/augustine-in-defense-of-torturing.html
(http://img1.photographersdirect.com/img/262/wm/pd1845952.jpg)
Jesus said he had come to
PUT AWAY the old law, and to preach the gospel to the gentiles!
“Don’t think that I came to destroy the law or the prophets. I didn’t come to destroy, but to fulfill. For most certainly, I tell you, until heaven and earth pass away, not even one smallest letter† or one tiny pen stroke‡ shall in any way pass away from the law, until all things are accomplished. Whoever, therefore, shall break one of these least commandments, and teach others to do so, shall be called least in the Kingdom of Heaven; but whoever shall do and teach them shall be called great in the Kingdom of Heaven. For I tell you that unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, there is no way you will enter into the Kingdom of Heaven."
Matthew:17-20
But he answered, “I wasn’t sent to anyone but the lost sheep of the house of Israel.”
Matthew 15:24
Yes ofcourse! It all makes perfect sense now! And Jesus
WAS talking about a place controlled by fiery fire demons!
NOT Gods
HOLY purifying presence, because thats the old covenant and it has now literally been done away with!
"For the
LORD your God is a consuming fire, a jealous God."
Deuteronomy 4:24
"for our "God is a consuming fire."
Hebrews 12:29
By
SATAN and the "teachers of the law" who are the only magic beings on earth that can actually translate Koine Greek!
Believe in this, or God
WILL strike you down and cast you into a bottomless
DARK PIT!!!Do you serve Yahwe or the "christian god" created by the pagan
SUN WORSHIPPING "church" Also know in Latin as Solar Invictus!
Only one is the real
TRUE GOOD! Choose wisely!
P.S:
The word "church"
ORIGINALLY both in Hebrew & Greek meant a
CONGRECATION OF PEOPLE! Not an
ORGANISATION or a building!
http://biblehub.com/greek/1577.htm
http://biblehub.com/hebrew/6951.htm
How could God come to he people of Israel in Sinai, as they did not have
ANY KIND OF OFFICIAL BUILDING or cult worship on how to worship him?
How could God speak to them as they were not followers of an
OFFICIAL CHURCH!Guess they were just listening to some
DEVIL in the wind :sigh:
I would say.. judge for yourself what is right.......in a marriage...which is better.......a wife in constant terror/fear of her husband...
or a wife who genuinely loves and respects/honours her husband.?
Quote from: sheila on May 09, 2015, 05:15:26 PM
I would say.. judge for yourself what is right.......in a marriage...which is better.......a wife in constant terror/fear of her husband...
or a wife who genuinely loves and respects/honours her husband.?
:iagree: :HeartThrob: