what would you answer

[lastpost]

I see the main thrust of Ecclesiastes this way:

The author presents a Sage who questions the plans of God in the light of how he, the Sage, has perceived the world (under the sun) as he has been living in it. His recounting of his lifetime's observations is in ebbs and flows.

The Sage is frustrated because he cannot see God's plans working out in his observations of the world.

He sees the wise becoming insignificant, the king of fools being remembered, He does not know whether the righteous and wise will receive love or hate, and there is no way to tell.

It appears that everybody is going to come to the same end whether they perform religious ceremonies or not, whether they are clean or dirty - everything under the sun is pointless. This is the conclusion reached by a person who observes "everything under the sun" of the material world, which does not tally up with God's viewpoint.

"This is the evil in everything that happens under the sun: The same destiny overtakes all".

This is the same frame of mind from which it is stated that: "The dead know nothing".

At one stage the viewpoint (which is a sensible one under the circumstances), is to make the best of life regardless and count what blessings one has. But the world is still frustratingly irreconcilable with God's vision.

The final chapter takes sharp turn in narrative delivery. We see youth being reminded of the life of the Sage with his inability to balance his worldly perceptions with the purpose of God.

Here we see youth being warned to learn from the Sage's observations, to remember the Creator, and not to waste time travelling the same path before it is too late and old age comes, when inevitably the silver cord is loosed from the physical body:

"If ever the silver cord be severed... and the dust returns to the ground it came from, and the spirit returns to God who gave it".

The Sage's message is: Learn from the experience of the wearisome path that has already been travelled by someone else; do not make the mistake of adding to it - be wise in time!

Finally, youth is urged to accept in faith, and without doubt, that God has overseen everything, therefore to obey with reverence His commands, and see that His laws (the sowing and reaping) provide perfect justice, which applies to both good and evil.

"Now all has been heard;
Here is the conclusion of the matter:
Fear God and keep his commandments,
For this is the duty of all mankind.
For God will bring every deed into judgment,
Including every hidden thing,
Whether it is good or evil".

Ecclesiastes 12

In my opinion, it would not be wise to take an observation used by the Sage to describe that which is irreconcilable with God's plan, i.e.

"For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing..."

...which is apparently a paired opposite to the Sage's ultimate conclusion: "if ever the silver cord be loosed... the dust returns to the ground it came from, and the spirit returns to God who gave it" - and use it in support of ones eschatological viewpoint.

Why do I care so much? For many good reasons.

[Tom]

"I am charging you in the sight of God, Who is vivifying all, and of Jesus Christ, Who testifies in the ideal avowal before Pontius Pilate, that you keep this precept unspotted, irreprehensible, unto the advent of our Lord, Christ Jesus, which, to its own eras, the happy and only Potentate will be showing: He is King of kings and Lord of lords, Who alone has immortality, making His home in light inaccessible, Whom not one of mankind perceived nor can be perceiving, to Whom be honor and might eonian! Amen!" (1 Timothy 6:13-16)

"Now we do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who are reposing, lest you may sorrow according as the rest, also, who have no expectation. For, if we are believing that Jesus died and rose, thus also, those who are put to repose, will God, through Jesus, lead forth together with Him. For this we are saying to you by the word of the Lord, that we, the living, who are surviving to the presence of the Lord, should by no means outstrip those who are put to repose, for the Lord Himself will be descending from heaven with a shout of command, with the voice of the Chief Messenger, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ shall be rising first. Thereupon we, the living who are surviving, shall at the same time be snatched away together with them in clouds, to meet the Lord in the air. And thus shall we always be together with the Lord." (1 Thessalonians 4:13-17)

"Yet from profane prattlings stand aloof, for they will be progressing to more irreverence, and their word will spread as gangrene, of whom are Hymeneus and Philetus, who swerve as to truth, saying that the resurrection has already occurred, and are subverting the faith of some." (2 Timothy 2:16-18)

"Thus also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is roused in incorruption. It is sown in dishonor; it is roused in glory. It is sown in infirmity; it is roused in power. It is sown a soulish body; it is roused a spiritual body. If there is a soulish body, there is a spiritual also. Thus it is written also, The first man, Adam, "became a living soul:" the last Adam a vivifying Spirit. But not first the spiritual, but the soulish, thereupon the spiritual. The first man was out of the earth, soilish; the second Man is the Lord out of heaven. Such as the soilish one is, such are those also who are soilish, and such as the Celestial One, such are those also who are celestials. And according as we wear the image of the soilish, we should be wearing the image also of the Celestial. Now this I am averring, brethren, that flesh and blood is not able to enjoy an allotment in the kingdom of God, neither is corruption enjoying the allotment of incorruption. Lo! a secret to you am I telling! We all, indeed, shall not be put to repose, yet we all shall be changed, in an instant, in the twinkle of an eye, at the last trump. For He will be trumpeting, and the dead will be roused incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal put on immortality. Now, whenever this corruptible should be putting on incorruption and this mortal should be putting on immortality, then shall come to pass the word which is written, Swallowed up was Death by Victory. Where, O Death, is your victory? Where, O Death, is your sting?" (1 Corinthians 15:42-55)

http://concordant.org/expohtml/DeathAndJudgment/WhatIsDeath.html

[rosered]

 

Love it lastpost!    :HeartThrob:   you give it a poetic justice  :thumbsup:
Solomon had  been given  much   earthly wisdom and it was   for his time  , But Jesus said a  Greater than Solomon is Here !!!   What a message !! :dsunny:

Nothing new under the sun ,  Oh ,but in the Sun  the Light of the gospel of Jesus Christ  :dsunny:

an  angel standing in the Sun    and a revelatory    saying !    A messenger  standing in the Light of the Gospel /new covenant /revealing of Christ !

Defeat of the Beast and False Prophet
rev 19

17Then I saw an angel standing in the sun, and he cried out with a loud voice, saying to all the birds which fly in midheaven, "Come, assemble for the great supper of God,

18so that you may eat the flesh of kings and the flesh of commanders and the flesh of mighty men and the flesh of horses and of those who sit on them and the flesh of all men, both free men and slaves, and small and great."

I have a  inkling    that     this is a wonderful thing  of God  when the fleshly and carnal      and worldly wisdom is out of the way    is   out of the way [defeat of   the beastly nature and false prophet liar ]       than the  true cleansing begins

The   Hope what remains is the   Holy Spirit and truth   out of all that     slaughter     , of Gods supper 

[rosered]

"Yet from profane prattlings stand aloof, for they will be progressing to more irreverence, and their word will spread as gangrene, of whom are Hymeneus and Philetus, who swerve as to truth, saying that the resurrection has already occurred, and are subverting the faith of some." (2 Timothy 2:16-18)

  Hi Tom , I used to have such a struggle with that when first reading the WORD OF GOD     , it broke my heart to think     of it
  I prayed for Jesus to show me what  is true    ,
the Light came  when He  spoke in my heart  saying I AM ALWAYS , I AM THE RESURRECTION AND THE LIFE     ,the resurrection IS  always !!!      AS HE WAS IS AND WILL BE  LIFE  IN AND OF ITSELF     

   Saying its past   is   of a truth and saying it is ,.   is of a truth and saying it will be is also of a truth   ,   but to say its  past is not   truth alone  ,  and  making those of faith think it is for nothing   Jesus has not risen   we do  not rise  ?,  or saying it is now   is hope    in the now , but  not spoken alone   , nor is saying its future  correct saying it alone      , some believe  now and may miss a chance  , if it sounds so far off and yet future   ..     so I say it like Jesus   does the resurrection is  him   and HE IS  always     



   I shouted with joy !!   :dsunny:

  it was a true  moment  of      revelation  of  Jesus Christ      within my heart    :HeartThrob:,,,
NET Bible
Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. The one who believes in me will live even if he dies,

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
Yeshua said to her, "I AM THE LIVING GOD, The Resurrection and The Life; whoever trusts in me, even if he dies, he shall live."

GOD'S WORD® Translation
Jesus said to her, "I am the one who brings people back to life, and I am life itself. Those who believe in me will live even if they die.

Jubilee Bible 2000
Jesus said unto her, I AM the resurrection and the life; he that believes in me, though he is dead, yet shall he live;

King James 2000 Bible
Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believes in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:


American Standard Version
Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth on me, though he die, yet shall he live;


Darby Bible Translation
Jesus said to her, I am the resurrection and the life: he that believes on me, though he have died, shall live;

English Revised Version
Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth on me, though he die, yet shall he live:

Webster's Bible Translation
Jesus said to her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:

Weymouth New Testament
"I am the Resurrection and the Life," said Jesus; "he who believes in me, even if he has died, he shall live;

World English Bible
Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in me will still live, even if he dies.

Young's Literal Translation
Jesus said to her, 'I am the rising again, and the life; he who is believing in me, even if he may die, shall live;

[Tom]

I'm sorry, sis. I believe what I read in scripture. It doesn't break my heart as you say it did yours to believe death is not another form of life because I believe that resurrection will be the true return of life to the truly dead just as it was to Jesus Christ. I believe that Jesus was truly dead just as I believe that he is now truly alive, and he is the only one who has been immortalized so far. But the wonderful expectation is that we all will be when we're snatched away to meet him in the air to be with him always, and then, at the consummation of the eons, even those who died as unbelievers will be. 

[rosered]

 

I  know this may sound strange to you Tom   ,   
  but I have considered the new name    that no man will know   except Him whom receives it , Given by the Lord Himself , this is a bold statement  and not taken anything away from the     first born from the dead   ,  But I see them as Gathering into  JESUS CHRIST  corporately       speaking  , not singularly    as just one guy whom come   in the flesh , but His Spirit and ,LIFE  poured out into all flesh     [His name is no  name under heaven by which   you must be saved ]     
  Pauls  makes some bold truths    in  saying all things  come out of Him and  though Him  and for  HIM ALL THINGS exist    ...
  ITS  BIG , much bigger than   any human mind can comprehend     

   

  is the same name   JESUS CHRIST   ,meaning '' salvation'''' anointed''   !!

Rev 2 16'Therefore repent; or else I am coming to you quickly,


and I will make war against them with the sword of My mouth.


17He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.


To him who overcomes, to him I will give some of the hidden manna, and I will give him a white stone, and a new name written on the stone which no one knows but he who receives it.'     

  I do believe the    Spirit of God and   the Spirit  of Christ   dwell within many      , those who have passed on from the physical plain, Written   in the book of life , those    whom  are   HIS

[Tom]

I believe spirit will return to them when they are vivified.

[rosered]

I believe spirit will return to them when they are vivified.

This is fine by me bro , no worries      we do have a different  view on the scriptures  in many cases .

  For me ,  believing  the   HOLY SPIRIT is everywhere    , all around us  and in us and though us   ACTS  17
not very far from any of us   
  and when you physically die ,  you are still   a spirit being   that goes back into God whom  the HOLY SPIRIT IS  and all    the LIVING



26and He made from one man every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth,


having determined their appointed times and the boundaries of their habitation,


27that they would seek God, if perhaps they might grope for Him and find Him,

though He is not far from each one of us;


28for in Him we live and move and exist, as even some of your own poets have said, 'For we also are His children.'...

[Tom]

I don't think we mortals are "spirit beings" because scripture says we're living souls until we die and become dead souls. I think, when you die, the body returns to the soil, the spirit to God, and the soul to the unseen state it was in before life. I think the soul could be said to be figuratively sleeping, but I think the spirit is the power of life that returns to God until he decides to give us immortality. I think that has already happened once with Jesus Christ, and it will happen two more times for believers first to experience eonian life and beyond, and then unbelievers at the consummation of the eons. 

http://concordant.org/expohtml/DeathAndJudgment/WhatIsTheSoul.html

[eaglesway]

The way I see it is, the first man Adam was a living soul. The last Adam is Christ, a life-giving spirit. If anyone be in Christ Jesus he is a new creation.
When we are born from above the portal of the heart opens to the heavens, the veil is removed from over the consciousness, and the Spirit of God descends and dwells over the mercy-seat(heart). The spirit of the man is vivified at that point, he is a new creature within. There is a process that remains in spreading that "newness" throughout, culminating in the redemption of our bodies, our adoption as sons. To begin, newborn, we cry Abba Father, little children in the spirit of adoption, in the end we will rejoice as "many sons unto glory".

The teaching that the spirit of man is only the breath of God could possibly be true for the unredeemed, they have not been made new. They are not in Christ, the life-giving spirit. They are still in Adam, the living soul. Those who are in Christ are life-giving spirits, children of the Most High- many brethren unto glory, many branches in one live giving Vine.

Numbers 16:22 But they fell on their faces and said, "O God, God of the spirits of all flesh, when one man sins, will You be angry with the entire congregation?"

Numbers 27:16 "May the Lord, the God of the spirits of all flesh, appoint a man over the congregation,

God is the God of the spirits of all flesh.

Psalm 32:2 How blessed is the man to whom the Lord does not impute iniquity, And in whose spirit there is no deceit!


Can a breath be deceitful? Does it choose truth or lie?

Proverbs 17:27 He who restrains his words has knowledge, And he who has a cool spirit is a man of understanding.

How does a man have any wisdom in remaining cool? if his spirit is just a breath having no person within it? Deos not the Spirit of God carry the person of God wherever it goes?

Proverbs 20:27 The spirit of man is the lamp of the Lord, Searching all the innermost parts of his being.

How does a breath search the innermost parts? Is it not the conscience(Rom 1) that will be revealed when hearts are searched on the Day? The word conscience is actually consciousness.

Proverbs 29:23 A man's pride will bring him low, But a humble spirit will obtain honor.

Can a breathe be humble or arrogant, and how do you judge the breath for being so, one way or another unless it is connected to the person and character of that person.

Zechariah 12:1 The burden of the word of the Lord concerning Israel. Thus declares the Lord who stretches out the heavens, lays the foundation of the earth, and forms the spirit of man within him,

God forms the spirit in man, and He forms it to be the consciousness of the man, knowing his innermost thoughts, even as God's Spirit searches out His own innermost thoughts

1 Corinthians 2:11 For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so the thoughts of God no one knows except the Spirit of God.

Why doesnt Paul say the soul of man know his innermost thoughts? Because God formed the spirit in man to be his consciousness, his innermost thoughts and character reside within his spirit. No man knows the thoughts of that person but his own spirit that is in him. Wherever that breath goes, the consciousness of the man goes with it.

1 Corinthians 15:45 So also it is written, "The first man, Adam, became a living soul." The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.

[rosered]

AWESOME  bro John!!   :HeartThrob:

   Made  me think  of   the '' fulness of Christ  bodily ''

Ephesians 4 Expanded Bible (EXB)

The Unity of the Body
4 [L Therefore,] As a prisoner [3:1] ·for [because I belong to; or in] the Lord, I urge you to ·live [walk] in a manner worthy of the calling ·you have received [L to which you were called].


2 ·Always be [or Be completely] humble, gentle, and patient, ·accepting [putting up/bearing with] each other in love.

3 Make every effort to preserve the unity ·of [provided by; available through] the Spirit ·in [through] the ·peace that joins us together [L bond of peace].


4 There is one body and one Spirit, and God called you to ·have one hope [L one hope of your calling]. 5 There is one Lord, one faith, and one baptism. 6 There is one God and Father of everything. ·He rules everything and is everywhere and is in everything [L ...who is over all and through all and in all].

7 Each one of us has been given the ·special gift of grace [L grace; or gift], ·showing how generous Christ is [or in proportion to Christ's gift; L according to the measure of Christ's gift].

8 That is why it says in the Scriptures,

"When he ·went up [ascended] to the heights,

    he ·led a parade of captives [or took captives into captivity],

    and he gave gifts to people [Ps. 68:18]."

9 When it says, "He ·went up [ascended]," what does it mean?

·It means [L ...except] that he first ·came down [descended] to the ·earth [or lower regions, namely the earth; or the depths of the earth; C probably refers to (1)

the Incarnation, though possibly (2) Christ's descent to Hades after his death (1 Pet. 3:19–20), or (3) Christ's descent through the Spirit at Pentecost (Acts 2)].

10 So the one who ·came down [descended] is the same one who ·went up [ascended] above all the heavens.

·Christ did that [L ...in order] to fill ·everything with his presence [L all things].


11 And ·Christ gave gifts to people—he made some to be apostles, some to be prophets, some to go and tell the Good News, and some to have the work of caring for and teaching God's people [L he himself gave apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors/shepherds, and teachers].



12 ·Christ gave those gifts to prepare [L ...to equip] God's holy people for the work of serving, to make the body of Christ stronger.


13 This work must continue until we ·are all joined together in the same faith [or all reach unity in the faith] and in the same knowledge of the Son of God.

We must become like ·a mature person [or the perfect Man; C Christ], ·growing until we become like Christ and have his perfection [L to the measure of the stature of Christ's fullness].



14 Then we will no longer be ·babies [children]. We will not be tossed about like a ship that the waves carry one way and then another. We will not be ·influenced by every new teaching [L carried along by every wind of (false) teaching] we hear from people who are trying to ·fool [trick] us. They ·make plans [scheme] and try any kind of trick to fool people into following ·the wrong path [error; false teaching].

15 ·No! [Instead; Rather] ·Speaking [or Living out; Practicing] the truth with love, we will grow up in every way into Christ, who is the head.

16 ·The whole body depends on Christ, and [L ...through/by whom] all the parts of the body are joined and held together.
Each ·part [supporting joint/ligament] ·does its own work [performs its function] to make the whole body grow and ·be strong with [to build itself up in] love.

Love is what makes the Body of CHRIST   COMPLETE /perfect ..

  Faith , hope and Love , Love  being the    perfect  bond of Jesus peace !!    :HeartThrob:

Matt 5       pure in heart    shall see God and  peacemakers  called the children of God    ,        Jesus speaks  in MATT 5     and Paul expounds in Eph 4

I find this soooo true in the Way Jesus said Jerusalem   Jerusalem ,    whom kill the prophets , How many times I would have gathered you  , like a   hen gathers her  chicks under her wings  ''to protect them from harm''  ,    but you were NOT willing ,      truly wisdom is justified of her children  Proverbs 8  ...

   It is Love   and trust and not warring nor scattering     from  HIM  :HeartThrob:   

[Tom]

So, in other words, if you were a believer, you're alive when you're dead, and our dead loved ones are alive somewhere now wandering around, in heaven I guess, even though scripture says only Christ has immortality now. That sounds a lot like the zombies I keep seeing advertised but don't watch on TV. My last ex is from where some folks really believe in zombies, but I finally found out that phenomenon is caused by voodoo priests drugging their victims with poison from a local fish so they're temporarily paralyzed until they come out of the graves and scare the hell out of folks. I seem to be in the minority here, but I still believe you're dead when you're dead, as in oblivious, figuratively sleeping, unconscious, unseen, gone but not forgotten, until the resurrection when Christ wakes the dead, and the dead and living are snatched away together to meet Christ in the air to be with him always.

"Now we do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who are reposing, lest you may sorrow according as the rest, also, who have no expectation. For, if we are believing that Jesus died and rose, thus also, those who are put to repose, will God, through Jesus, lead forth together with Him. For this we are saying to you by the word of the Lord, that we, the living, who are surviving to the presence of the Lord, should by no means outstrip those who are put to repose, for the Lord Himself will be descending from heaven with a shout of command, with the voice of the Chief Messenger, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ shall be rising first. Thereupon we, the living who are surviving, shall at the same time be snatched away together with them in clouds, to meet the Lord in the air. And thus shall we always be together with the Lord. So that, console one another with these words." (1 Thessalonians 4:13-18)

I know you may think this is about the Father, but I think it's about Jesus Christ.

"I am charging you in the sight of God, Who is vivifying all, and of Jesus Christ, Who testifies in the ideal avowal before Pontius Pilate, that you keep this precept unspotted, irreprehensible, unto the advent of our Lord, Christ Jesus, which, to its own eras, the happy and only Potentate will be showing: He is King of kings and Lord of lords, Who alone has immortality, making His home in light inaccessible, Whom not one of mankind perceived nor can be perceiving, to Whom be honor and might eonian! Amen!" (1 Timothy 6:13-16)

If it's not about Jesus Christ, then I guess he's not immortalized, and he's not in heaven with the Father, but somehow all other dead believers are. There's something kind of strange about that picture if you ask me.
 
I understand that we're a "new creation," but I believe that's in a figurative sense until we are literally changed in the twinkle of an eye.

"Now if Christ is being heralded that He has been roused from among the dead, how are some among you saying that there is no resurrection of the dead? Now if there is no resurrection of the dead, neither has Christ been roused. Now if Christ has not been roused, for naught, consequently, is our heralding, and for naught is your faith. Now we are being found false witnesses also of God, seeing that we testify by God that He rouses Christ, Whom, consequently, He rouses not, if so be that the dead are not being roused. For, if the dead are not being roused, neither has Christ been roused. Now, if Christ has not been roused, vain is your faith--you are still in your sins! Consequently those also, who are put to repose in Christ, perished. If we are having an expectation in Christ in this life only, more forlorn than all men are we. (Yet now Christ has been roused from among the dead, the Firstfruit of those who are reposing. For since, in fact, through a man came death, through a Man, also, comes the resurrection of the dead. For even as, in Adam, all are dying, thus also, in Christ, shall all be vivified. Yet each in his own class: the Firstfruit, Christ; thereupon those who are Christ's in His presence; thereafter the consummation, whenever He may be giving up the kingdom to His God and Father, whenever He should be nullifying all sovereignty and all authority and power. For He must be reigning until He should be placing all His enemies under His feet. The last enemy is being abolished: death. For He subjects all under His feet. Now whenever He may be saying that all is subject, it is evident that it is outside of Him Who subjects all to Him. Now, whenever all may be subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also shall be subjected to Him Who subjects all to Him, that God may be All in all.) Else what shall those be doing who are baptizing? It is for the sake of the dead absolutely if the dead are not being roused. Why are they baptizing also for their sake? Why are we also in danger every hour? Daily am I dying. By this boast of yours, brethren, which I have in Christ Jesus, our Lord, if, as a man, I fight wild beasts in Ephesus, what is the benefit to me? If the dead are not being roused, "we may be eating and drinking, for tomorrow we are dying." Be not deceived: evil conversations are corrupting kind characters. Sober up justly and do not be sinning, for some have an ignorance of God. To abash you am I saying it. But someone will be protesting, "How are the dead being roused? Now with what body are they coming?" Imprudent one! What you are sowing is not being vivified if it should not be dying. And, what you are sowing, you are not sowing the body which shall come to be, but a naked kernel, perchance of wheat or some of the rest. Yet God is giving it a body according as He wills, and to each of the seeds its own body. Not all flesh is the same flesh, but there is one, indeed, of men, yet another flesh of beasts, yet another flesh of flyers, yet another of fishes. There are bodies celestial as well as bodies terrestrial. But a different glory, indeed, is that of the celestial, yet a different that of the terrestrial, another glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars, for star is excelling star in glory. Thus also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is roused in incorruption. It is sown in dishonor; it is roused in glory. It is sown in infirmity; it is roused in power. It is sown a soulish body; it is roused a spiritual body. If there is a soulish body, there is a spiritual also. Thus it is written also, The first man, Adam, "became a living soul:" the last Adam a vivifying Spirit. But not first the spiritual, but the soulish, thereupon the spiritual. The first man was out of the earth, soilish; the second Man is the Lord out of heaven. Such as the soilish one is, such are those also who are soilish, and such as the Celestial One, such are those also who are celestials. And according as we wear the image of the soilish, we should be wearing the image also of the Celestial. Now this I am averring, brethren, that flesh and blood is not able to enjoy an allotment in the kingdom of God, neither is corruption enjoying the allotment of incorruption. Lo! a secret to you am I telling! We all, indeed, shall not be put to repose, yet we all shall be changed, in an instant, in the twinkle of an eye, at the last trump. For He will be trumpeting, and the dead will be roused incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal put on immortality. Now, whenever this corruptible should be putting on incorruption and this mortal should be putting on immortality, then shall come to pass the word which is written, Swallowed up was Death by Victory. Where, O Death, is your victory? Where, O Death, is your sting?" (1 Corinthians 15:12-55)

That tells me that Jesus Christ was really dead and was roused from the dead just like what I believe will happen to all believers who die when they are roused from the dead by Jesus Christ and snatched away to meet him in the air which hasn't happened yet unless there's a bunch of us who think we're believers, but I guess we aren't because we got left behind when everybody else already got snatched away.

I'm not trying to offend anybody, but I think the idea that souls are inherently immortal is simply the philosophy of man not the truth of scripture. I realize that's an unpopular interpretation here on this forum, but that's what I believe.

I think you're alive until you die, and then you're really dead until you're given immortality in a spiritual body which I don't think any of you have yet or you wouldn't still be suffering from the effects of dying like we all are.

http://concordant.org/expohtml/DeathAndJudgment/WhatIsDeath.html

[micah7:9]

So, in other words, if you were a believer, you're alive when you're dead, and our dead loved ones are alive somewhere now wondering around, in heaven I guess, even though scripture says only Christ has immortality now. That sounds a lot like the zombies I keep seeing advertised but don't watch on TV. My last ex is from where some folks really believe in zombies, but I finally found out that phenomenon is caused by voodoo priests drugging their victims with poison from a local fish so they're temporarily paralyzed until they come out of the graves and scare the hell out of folks. I seem to be in the minority here, but I still believe you're dead when you're dead, as in oblivious, figuratively sleeping, unconscious, unseen, gone but not forgotten, until the resurrection when Christ wakes the dead, and the dead and living are snatched away together to meet Christ in the air to be with him always.

"Now we do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who are reposing, lest you may sorrow according as the rest, also, who have no expectation. For, if we are believing that Jesus died and rose, thus also, those who are put to repose, will God, through Jesus, lead forth together with Him. For this we are saying to you by the word of the Lord, that we, the living, who are surviving to the presence of the Lord, should by no means outstrip those who are put to repose, for the Lord Himself will be descending from heaven with a shout of command, with the voice of the Chief Messenger, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ shall be rising first. Thereupon we, the living who are surviving, shall at the same time be snatched away together with them in clouds, to meet the Lord in the air. And thus shall we always be together with the Lord. So that, console one another with these words." (1 Thessalonians 4:13-18)

I know you think this is about the Father, but I think it's about Jesus Christ.

"I am charging you in the sight of God, Who is vivifying all, and of Jesus Christ, Who testifies in the ideal avowal before Pontius Pilate, that you keep this precept unspotted, irreprehensible, unto the advent of our Lord, Christ Jesus, which, to its own eras, the happy and only Potentate will be showing: He is King of kings and Lord of lords, Who alone has immortality, making His home in light inaccessible, Whom not one of mankind perceived nor can be perceiving, to Whom be honor and might eonian! Amen!" (1 Timothy 6:13-16)

If it's not about Jesus Christ, then I guess he's not immortalized, and he's not in heaven with the Father, but somehow all other dead believers are. There's something kind of strange about that picture if you ask me.
 
I understand that we're a "new creation," but I believe that's in a figurative sense until we are literally changed in the twinkle of an eye.

"Now if Christ is being heralded that He has been roused from among the dead, how are some among you saying that there is no resurrection of the dead? Now if there is no resurrection of the dead, neither has Christ been roused. Now if Christ has not been roused, for naught, consequently, is our heralding, and for naught is your faith. Now we are being found false witnesses also of God, seeing that we testify by God that He rouses Christ, Whom, consequently, He rouses not, if so be that the dead are not being roused. For, if the dead are not being roused, neither has Christ been roused. Now, if Christ has not been roused, vain is your faith--you are still in your sins! Consequently those also, who are put to repose in Christ, perished. If we are having an expectation in Christ in this life only, more forlorn than all men are we. (Yet now Christ has been roused from among the dead, the Firstfruit of those who are reposing. For since, in fact, through a man came death, through a Man, also, comes the resurrection of the dead. For even as, in Adam, all are dying, thus also, in Christ, shall all be vivified. Yet each in his own class: the Firstfruit, Christ; thereupon those who are Christ's in His presence; thereafter the consummation, whenever He may be giving up the kingdom to His God and Father, whenever He should be nullifying all sovereignty and all authority and power. For He must be reigning until He should be placing all His enemies under His feet. The last enemy is being abolished: death. For He subjects all under His feet. Now whenever He may be saying that all is subject, it is evident that it is outside of Him Who subjects all to Him. Now, whenever all may be subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also shall be subjected to Him Who subjects all to Him, that God may be All in all.) Else what shall those be doing who are baptizing? It is for the sake of the dead absolutely if the dead are not being roused. Why are they baptizing also for their sake? Why are we also in danger every hour? Daily am I dying. By this boast of yours, brethren, which I have in Christ Jesus, our Lord, if, as a man, I fight wild beasts in Ephesus, what is the benefit to me? If the dead are not being roused, "we may be eating and drinking, for tomorrow we are dying." Be not deceived: evil conversations are corrupting kind characters. Sober up justly and do not be sinning, for some have an ignorance of God. To abash you am I saying it. But someone will be protesting, "How are the dead being roused? Now with what body are they coming?" Imprudent one! What you are sowing is not being vivified if it should not be dying. And, what you are sowing, you are not sowing the body which shall come to be, but a naked kernel, perchance of wheat or some of the rest. Yet God is giving it a body according as He wills, and to each of the seeds its own body. Not all flesh is the same flesh, but there is one, indeed, of men, yet another flesh of beasts, yet another flesh of flyers, yet another of fishes. There are bodies celestial as well as bodies terrestrial. But a different glory, indeed, is that of the celestial, yet a different that of the terrestrial, another glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars, for star is excelling star in glory. Thus also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is roused in incorruption. It is sown in dishonor; it is roused in glory. It is sown in infirmity; it is roused in power. It is sown a soulish body; it is roused a spiritual body. If there is a soulish body, there is a spiritual also. Thus it is written also, The first man, Adam, "became a living soul:" the last Adam a vivifying Spirit. But not first the spiritual, but the soulish, thereupon the spiritual. The first man was out of the earth, soilish; the second Man is the Lord out of heaven. Such as the soilish one is, such are those also who are soilish, and such as the Celestial One, such are those also who are celestials. And according as we wear the image of the soilish, we should be wearing the image also of the Celestial. Now this I am averring, brethren, that flesh and blood is not able to enjoy an allotment in the kingdom of God, neither is corruption enjoying the allotment of incorruption. Lo! a secret to you am I telling! We all, indeed, shall not be put to repose, yet we all shall be changed, in an instant, in the twinkle of an eye, at the last trump. For He will be trumpeting, and the dead will be roused incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal put on immortality. Now, whenever this corruptible should be putting on incorruption and this mortal should be putting on immortality, then shall come to pass the word which is written, Swallowed up was Death by Victory. Where, O Death, is your victory? Where, O Death, is your sting?" (1 Corinthians 15:12-55)

That tells me that Jesus Christ was really dead and was roused from the dead just like what I believe will happen to all believers who die when they are roused from the dead by Jesus Christ and snatched away to meet him in the air which hasn't happened yet unless there's a bunch of us who think we're believers, but I guess we aren't because we got left behind when everybody else already got snatched away.

I'm not trying to offend anybody, but I think the idea that souls are inherently immortal is simply the philosophy of man not the truth of scripture. I realize that's an unpopular interpretation here on this forum, but that's what I believe.

I think you're alive until you die, and then you're really dead until you're given immortality in a spiritual body which I don't think any of you have yet or you wouldn't still be suffering from the effects of dying like we all are.

http://concordant.org/expohtml/DeathAndJudgment/WhatIsDeath.html

:thumbsup: :dsunny:

[sheila]

  EW   :thumbsup:  that how I see it,too.    that's all part of the fallen nature[first Adam/die] condition..and the raising up in

  Christ[life giving spirit] last man Adam.   surely the SAVIOUR SAVES THOSE CONDEMNED TO DIE [do not eat/all in first Adam]

   BY MY SPIRIT!!!!!!![ALL IN LAST ADAM/CHRIST]

   SOME DO NOT BELIEVE ...some believe but not to the salvation of the soul... the soul's saviour is the life-giving spirit........

  for the spirit in Christ cries out...AT last! bone of my bone and flesh of my flesh...and no man ever hated his own flesh..but feeds

  and cherishes it[these words I speak are spirit and truth].

      Jesus as kinsman redeemer..brought up seed for his dead brother Adam [the woman's seed shall bruise the serpents head]

[Tom]

I realized that I had to correct my typo "wondering" to "wandering" even though those zombies are probably wondering what's up because they're supposed to be dead.

[micah7:9]

The way I see it is, the first man Adam was a living soul. The last Adam is Christ, a life-giving spirit. If anyone be in Christ Jesus he is a new creation.
When we are born from above the portal of the heart opens to the heavens, the veil is removed from over the consciousness, and the Spirit of God descends and dwells over the mercy-seat(heart). The spirit of the man is vivified at that point, he is a new creature within. There is a process that remains in spreading that "newness" throughout, culminating in the redemption of our bodies, our adoption as sons. To begin, newborn, we cry Abba Father, little children in the spirit of adoption, in the end we will rejoice as "many sons unto glory".

The teaching that the spirit of man is only the breath of God could possibly be true for the unredeemed, they have not been made new. They are not in Christ, the life-giving spirit. They are still in Adam, the living soul. Those who are in Christ are life-giving spirits, children of the Most High- many brethren unto glory, many branches in one live giving Vine.

Numbers 16:22 But they fell on their faces and said, "O God, God of the spirits of all flesh, when one man sins, will You be angry with the entire congregation?"

Numbers 27:16 "May the Lord, the God of the spirits of all flesh, appoint a man over the congregation,

God is the God of the spirits of all flesh.

Psalm 32:2 How blessed is the man to whom the Lord does not impute iniquity, And in whose spirit there is no deceit!


Can a breath be deceitful? Does it choose truth or lie?

Proverbs 17:27 He who restrains his words has knowledge, And he who has a cool spirit is a man of understanding.

How does a man have any wisdom in remaining cool? if his spirit is just a breath having no person within it? Deos not the Spirit of God carry the person of God wherever it goes?

Proverbs 20:27 The spirit of man is the lamp of the Lord, Searching all the innermost parts of his being.

How does a breath search the innermost parts? Is it not the conscience(Rom 1) that will be revealed when hearts are searched on the Day? The word conscience is actually consciousness.

Proverbs 29:23 A man's pride will bring him low, But a humble spirit will obtain honor.

Can a breathe be humble or arrogant, and how do you judge the breath for being so, one way or another unless it is connected to the person and character of that person.

Zechariah 12:1 The burden of the word of the Lord concerning Israel. Thus declares the Lord who stretches out the heavens, lays the foundation of the earth, and forms the spirit of man within him,

God forms the spirit in man, and He forms it to be the consciousness of the man, knowing his innermost thoughts, even as God's Spirit searches out His own innermost thoughts

1 Corinthians 2:11 For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so the thoughts of God no one knows except the Spirit of God.

Why doesnt Paul say the soul of man know his innermost thoughts? Because God formed the spirit in man to be his consciousness, his innermost thoughts and character reside within his spirit. No man knows the thoughts of that person but his own spirit that is in him. Wherever that breath goes, the consciousness of the man goes with it.

1 Corinthians 15:45 So also it is written, "The first man, Adam, became a living soul." The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.

Just seems odd to me anyway, how the words breath and spirit are interchanged to how it fits what we deem to believe. Just my  :2c: :HeartThrob:

[sheila]

...well..as far as the 'wandering' zombies go...or otherwise known as the night of the living dead..... do you not know their

  life is sustained[having no life in themselves] by drinking the blood of the living[one] and eating the flesh of the living[one]?

         

[Tom]

I think their life is sustained by Hollywood, sis.

[sheila]

 Deut 26;5    Then you shall declare before  the Lord your God...' MY FATHER[first Adam] WAS A WANDERING ARAMEAN "

[Tom]

Yeah, well, I've done plenty of wandering myself in my crazy life, but I think I'm still alive even though a lot of folks have been surprised about that along the way including me.

[micah7:9]

I think their life is sustained by Hollywood, sis.

Now Tom lets not throw logic and common sense into this :2c:

[rosered]

So, in other words, if you were a believer, you're alive when you're dead, and our dead loved ones are alive somewhere now wandering around, in heaven I guess, even though scripture says only Christ has immortality now. That sounds a lot like the zombies

I keep seeing advertised but don't watch on TV. My last ex is from where some folks really believe in zombies, but I finally found out that phenomenon is caused by voodoo priests drugging their victims with poison from a local fish so they're temporarily paralyzed until they come out of the graves and scare the hell out of folks


. I seem to be in the minority here, but I still believe you're dead when you're dead, as in oblivious, figuratively sleeping, unconscious, unseen, gone but not forgotten, until the resurrection when Christ wakes the dead, and the dead and living are snatched away together to meet Christ in the air to be with him always.

  Dear Tom  ,
  After reading some of your post , it need some spaces    lol     :laughing7:

I dont think you understand what some of us are saying at all      , and that is not your fault

     Mainly the power   the Cross of Christ      has over death  DEFEATED !!   FINISHED   DONE   JESUS  CHRIST IS THE LORD OF THE DEAD AND LIVING RIGHT NOW   

  This seems to be the  main  flaw I can see in those writings   you keep sharing and keep saying  denying there are any sons of God being  born yet and only Jesus is the one   and Him alone  , in the sense that    HE IS JUST SITTING UP THERE WAITING FOR EONS  ,  2 MORE EONS ?  :eek:

  They deny the power of the resurrection     for anyone and   only JESUS CHRIST     for now , which is odd   to me   , BECAUSE CHRIST IS GATHERING INTO HIMSELF      THE DEAD AND THE LIVING    MAKING ALIVE FOR THE FATHER   GOD IS THE GOD OF THE LIVING   on earth as it is in heaven

 

  and to be honest  I think you ar and Micah are really missing out .. :sigh:   with worldly wisdom and  the teachings of men

  James 1


16 My ·dear [beloved] brothers and sisters [C fellow believers], do not be ·fooled [deceived] about this.

17 Every good ·action [or act of giving] and every perfect gift ·is from God [L comes from above]. These good gifts come down from the ·Creator of the sun, moon, and stars [L the father of lights; C referring to God's creation of the heavenly bodies (Gen. 1:14–19; Ps. 136:7–9; Jer. 31:35)], who does not change like their shifting shadows.


18 God ·decided [chose; willed] to give us ·life [birth] through the ·word of truth [true message] so we might be ·the most important [or the first of many; L a kind of firstfruits; C firstfruits were the first crops to be harvested and guaranteed the coming harvest; Ex. 34:22; 2 Thess. 2:13; Rev. 14:4] of all ·the things he made [or his creatures].

They are   just as   the stars messengers speaking what the Spirit is saying to them , just as we are messengers sharing what the Spirit is teaching and saying to us          we change by Gods design   not of ourselves



 

[rosered]

 

  I would love to simplify   this   , into the ages stages and  3 days    Jesus spoke of
  being the  age /eon      sin reigned    till Moses    and than  death reigned     till Christ now Life reigns      :2c:

[Tom]

Thanks, sis, but I'll pass on "worldly wisdom." I apologize for not using paragraphs like I guess I should, but I just let the stuff flow out of my head in a steady stream and don't think about breaking it up. You know, the ancient manuscripts are just a bunch of letters all crammed together with no caps, and they don't even break up the words or have punctuation. At least I stick a few commas and periods in there for you, and I even capitalize a few letters. I understand what you're saying. I just don't agree that means that the dead are alive.

"Christ does not commission me to be baptizing, but to be bringing the evangel, not in wisdom of word, lest the cross of Christ may be made void. For the word of the cross is stupidity, indeed, to those who are perishing, yet to us who are being saved it is the power of God. For it is written, I shall be destroying the wisdom of the wise, and the understanding of the intelligent shall I be repudiating. Where is the wise? Where is the scribe? Where is the discusser of this eon? Does not God make stupid the wisdom of this world? For since, in fact, in the wisdom of God, the world through wisdom knew not God, God delights, through the stupidity of the heralding, to save those who are believing, since, in fact, Jews signs are requesting, and Greeks wisdom are seeking, yet we are heralding Christ crucified, to Jews, indeed, a snare, yet to the nations stupidity, yet to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ, the power of God and the wisdom of God, for the stupidity of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men. For you are observing your calling, brethren, that there are not many wise according to the flesh; not many powerful, not many noble, but the stupidity of the world God chooses, that He may be disgracing the wise, and the weakness of the world God chooses, that He may be disgracing the strong, and the ignoble and the contemptible things of the world God chooses, and that which is not, that He should be discarding that which is, so that no flesh at all should be boasting in God's sight. Yet you, of Him, are in Christ Jesus, Who became to us wisdom from God, besides righteousness and holiness and deliverance, that, according as it is written, He who is boasting, in the Lord let him be boasting. And I, coming to you, brethren, came not with superiority of word or of wisdom, announcing to you the testimony of God, for I decide not to perceive anything among you except Jesus Christ and Him crucified. And I came to be with you in weakness, and in fear, and in much trembling, and my word and my heralding were not with the persuasive words of human wisdom, but with demonstration of spirit and of power, that your faith may not be in the wisdom of men but in the power of God. Yet wisdom are we speaking among the mature, yet a wisdom not of this eon, neither of the chief men of this eon, who are being discarded, but we are speaking God's wisdom in a secret, wisdom which has been concealed, which God designates before--before the eons, for our glory, which not one of the chief men of this eon knows, for if they know, they would not crucify the Lord of glory. But, according as it is written, That which the eye did not perceive, and the ear did not hear, and to which the heart of man did not ascend--whatever God makes ready for those who are loving Him. Yet to us God reveals them through His spirit, for the spirit is searching all, even the depths of God. For is any of humanity acquainted with that which is human except the spirit of humanity which is in it? Thus also, that which is of God no one knows, except the spirit of God. Now we obtained, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God, that we may be perceiving that which is being graciously given to us by God, which we are speaking also, not with words taught by human wisdom, but with those taught by the spirit, matching spiritual blessings with spiritual words. Now the soulish man is not receiving those things which are of the spirit of God, for they are stupidity to him, and he is not able to know them, seeing that they are spiritually examined. Now he who is spiritual is, indeed, examining all, yet he is being examined by no one. For who knew the mind of the Lord? Who will be deducing from Him? Yet we have the mind of Christ." (1 Corinthians 1:17-2:16)

[eaglesway]

Just seems odd to me anyway, how the words breath and spirit are interchanged to how it fits what we deem to believe. Just my  :2c: :HeartThrob:

Nothing was interchanged with anything. All those verses are in the Bible, and their content and context is "spirit". Does a breath think?

But I am not saying breath never fits either. We like to say a word must be ether this or that, as it fits our belief. I am only saying the word cannot be limited to "breath", especially in th verses I listed. In John 3:8 it is "wind". I think no one will ever switch Holy Spirit to Holy Breath :o)  :2c: