Universal Reconcilliation =+= All The Proofs! And All The Questions!

[autoimmune]

Hi again Mary, I did not mean for my post to say you did not see or comprehend the Most High God,

I apologize, Scott, for my poor wording. The fault was mine, not yours.  I meant only to identify that I'm on the same page as you concerning the time paradox in the God-man relationship; not that you thought I was unaware of it. 

every aspect of God brings us further and further into compreheding the Most High God. God uses His other names for the exact purpose of revealing this to us.

And what a wonderful journey!  The thing, though, is that the more He seems to reveal Himself to us, the less we feel we know about Him.  Yet, that is the very thing that compels us to know more.

I agree very much that how we approach God and how He communicates to us over time changes, much the same as our love relationship to others on earth changes over time and our mental images of our loved ones change. 

The problem, of course, is that human dialogue operates within "linear" time frame, and it can become confusing when people are talking out of two different frames of reference.  I believe that God builds upon nature, so He expects us to use our human facilities in our search for and understanding of Him.

In the eternal Now all is accomplished, but as humans we are here in the temporal plane experiencing the linear events that are all part of that process which is seen as complete from God's point of view, but not from our's.

In the finished process, all are restored, but the process of getting there for us includes all the components OF that process (justice, mercy and love) experienced in linear time.

We all seem to differ on how we experience and live through that process, what part we play or don't based on how we see the nature of that relationship of man to God, but we do agree on the end result :)

I to see the Most High God, but experiance tells me I have YET to experiance Him, as long a sin is in my life I have yet to experiance His fullness because if I had His fullness I could not sin, it would simply be impossible.

LOL! I recall Paul discussing that same dilemma!  I don't think any of us humans can escape it.

Thank God for His grace :)

The Most High God is only seen by revelation as of YET, no one but Christ has experianced His fullness, but we press towards the HIGH calling in Christ.

For myself I want that fullness of God, to experiance ALL of who He is.

That is my constant prayer also, "Lord, grant me the grace to be who you created me to be so that I may know you as you are."

We all want that, Scott, and the wonder of UR is that it provides the hope that it will be so, God's Amen to us.

ME


[/quote]

[autoimmune]

:Yeahright:   :laughing7: ...My inclination is to tell you to "bring it on", if you are able,  ...I'm Italian myself...  :laughing7:

LOL! Willie, your "bring it on" attitude is exactly why I did not accept you invitation. Not good for either of us Italians :)

No apology for your FALSE WITNESS of me?  ...  :sigh:

I cannot apologize for someone else's perception of what I said.   

I do apologize, though, for authentic harm I did by word or attitude in our exchange.

ME


Edited to add:

Paul just lovingly pointed out that I was responsible for taunting you.  That IS an authentic harm, and I sincerely apologize.  I shouldn't have done it, but my ego got the best of me.

Can we end this now , please? I wasn't kidding, I really do like you, Willie. I just don't want to engage in useless argument with you.

ME
ME

[autoimmune]

I am a race car driver on occasion, if a friend is in town and in the racing scene there is what is called bench racing where guys can boast about how fast what they want to build would be and how it could beat someone elses.

But this is gotta be the first thread where I have witnessed Bench Posting,  and maybe thats not the right word for it.

Believe me, my natural skill in the arena of forum sarcasm far surpasses what you exhibited in your last reply--and I can do it with a finesse you would envy if you could.

You have no idea of what I am capable

Mary Ellen and Willie   start your engines.....  VAROOOOOOOOOMMMMM

LOL! Busted!

I should have listened to the Holy Spirit and deleted that line.  The old me does sneak in occasionally.  Keen eye, Paul.  I accept your gentle and humorous brotherly correction with a thank you.

In New York we call it a "pissing up a wall contest."   :bigGrin:

ME

P.S. Willie, Paul is correct.  I owe you an apology.  I taunted you.  Forgive me.

ME

[willieH]

ORIGINAL SIN... NAME IT... 

Romans 5:14
Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.



1 Corinthians 15:22
For as in Adam all die,...

Thanks for naming verses which do not answer the question... typical of you Molly...

NAME IT, ...you did NOT...  :dontknow:

Nothing in these verses state an "ORIGINAL SIN"...


"ORIGINAL SIN", like the "TRINITY", ...is a theological title, and is UNBIBLICAL, and despite your effort, ...continues to be so...   :laughhand:

peacE...
...willieH  :laughing7:

[martincisneros]

Hi Willie,

I would appreciate it if you've dropped it by now -- realizing that I'm seeing this thread a little late in the game.  It's evident that as far as the old school designations of Universalists go, Mary Ellen is what would be termed a Restorationist Universalist, while you're what would have been called in the 19th century an Ultra Universalist.  I'm personally sorta in between both of your perspectives, having come into UR through Andrew Jukes, Elhanan Winchester, Charles Chauncy, and others who pretty much preached the temporary Hell version. 

As far as what can be interpreted as "accepting Christ," the Revelation 3:20 is a fallacy 'cause that's not even remotely talking about that.  The ones that I can't shake though are Romans 10:9-10 and Acts 17:30-31 that was preached to Greeks and Romans hundreds of miles away from Jerusalem who didn't give a flip about Jerusalem.  So, any 70AD arguments weaken with the context of Acts 17:30-31 although I can easily admit the force of the argument of Christ's declarations of judgment in the 4 Gospels being predominantly about Jerusalem's soon coming disaster from when Jesus was prophecying. 

On a resurrection of condemnation, it does use that language in John chapter 5.  But, I'm currently interpreting John chapter 5 as the resurrection itself and what one would go through in that bodily resurrection rather than as a destination to dread after the resurrection.  Revelation chapter 20 doesn't seem applicable on any Biblical language about a bodily resurrection of the saints because the language there is the resurrection of the souls, which is either a reviving/refreshing after previous persecution or an argument for soul sleep or oblivion in the way that some Universalists would believe it.  Or at least, that would seem to open up those possibilities to me.  To say that the raising of the souls necessitates bodily resurrection in Revelation 20 is like saying that the salvation of the soul passages elsewhere is talking about making sure that you are raised from the dead.  Perhaps it could mean "to have a better resurrection" as the language in Hebrews 11 would imply that some have striven for over the millenia.

Mary Ellen seemed to be saying the same thing that you were saying that it's all finished, but we don't see all of that in historical time YET, although it's all finished in the spirit.  Re-read the last quotation of her's that you seemed a little critical of.  Y'all seemed to be saying the same things on those points, although otherwise it was an argument over how God administers His redemptive work into each of our lives.  Open that door, Willie, and if these boards were busier, you might accidentally have 75 people with 75 entirely different perspectives on how God administers that to people arguing like maniacs with you.  There's an article over at the True Grace Ministries website in the UR section called "Different Views Among Universalists" that would briefly illustrate that.  I've personally found that article in the past just by typing the name of it into google, though, without having to fish at the True Grace Ministries website.  I think the book that it's from is from 1838 by someone named George Rogers, although I might have gotten the name wrong.

I still haven't gotten all of the resurrection language of the Scriptures sorted out.  I've seen enough for afterlife punishments to at least be problematic, but when I get hateful emails like the one Gary Amirault posted on the "you mean Hitler's going to get saved??????" thread, then when there's no reasoning with them about anything because they have that kind of attitude, it helps to be able to throw at them a version of UR that embraces temporary afterlife punishments that at least would come closer to satisfying their carnal mind, and might plant a mustard seed in them about UR that could eventually take them away from any type of punishments whatsoever if that's where the Scriptures genuinely lead. 

But most of the time, just getting your foot in the door of some people's thinking, sometimes you can't push your current level of understanding, but as Origen said regarding God's wrath, you've got to be willing to allow a condescension of language on your part to get that seed into their hearts and thinking at any cost to what you might consider a greater exactitude when you would do people some good, but aren't going to hit the homerun with them that you'd prefer to on all points.  Origen called God's wrath a condescending of language on God's part rather than any kind of loss of control on His part or "wrath" in the way that a carnal mind would think of "wrath."  The Scriptures do seem written in such a way to where the casual observer reading a genuinely good translation would have to come to an initial conclusion of temporary punishments in the afterlife.  "worm that dieth not, fire that's not quenched, et. al."  Further light on the Scriptures may indicate a better picture, a more complete picture, and the things that you've always insisted upon.  But sinners in the hands of the temporarily angry God seems to be implicit in the Scripture's language to the masses, although digging just a little will reveal something altogether different.

But I just don't want to see a needless fuss over two groups of Universalists that at least agree that when we've walked through the 1Corinthians 15:28 door that absolutely everybody from everywhere from all times is there with us.  Isn't the bottomline of the reclaiming of all on the part of God the glorious news, regardless of what level each of us are on in our understanding of the practical means that God is using in each heart in historical time [if He's using such] to bring about that spiritual reality that's already fulfilled and finished in the higher realms of superstring theory or whatever into historical "now you see it" time?  As long as God's not ignorant of the means necessary for the reclaiming of sinners, then we can all sleep soundly at night, amen?

[Paul Hazelwood]

I have had similar exchanges where the focus seemed to be on less important things.  One person (not here on this forum, even though it may end up being the same) viewed the "free" and all that entails about our will differently.   

But in the end the result was the same.   If God knows exactly how we are going to come to Christ, and he knows this for everyone, the means ends up being rather insignificant to me.

[autoimmune]

Martin said:  "As long as God's not ignorant of the means necessary for the reclaiming of sinners, then we can all sleep soundly at night, amen?"

And then Paul said: "But in the end the result was the same.   If God knows exactly how we are going to come to Christ, and he knows this for everyone, the means ends up being rather insignificant to me."

I add my "Amen" to both.

This may be why Jesus commanded us to love one another.  Everything else is an exercise in futility.

May God grant us the grace to abide in that Love as brothers and sisters continually.

ME

[pneuma]

I agree very much that how we approach God and how He communicates to us over time changes, much the same as our love relationship to others on earth changes over time and our mental images of our loved ones change. 

The problem, of course, is that human dialogue operates within "linear" time frame, and it can become confusing when people are talking out of two different frames of reference.  I believe that God builds upon nature, so He expects us to use our human facilities in our search for and understanding of Him.

In the eternal Now all is accomplished, but as humans we are here in the temporal plane experiencing the linear events that are all part of that process which is seen as complete from God's point of view, but not from our's.

In the finished process, all are restored, but the process of getting there for us includes all the components OF that process (justice, mercy and love) experienced in linear time.

We all seem to differ on how we experience and live through that process, what part we play or don't based on how we see the nature of that relationship of man to God, but we do agree on the end result :)

Exactly sis, I think we see this the same

[pneuma]

Hi Martin, for myself I beleive in punishment after our physical death, but punishment has come to be seen as something terrible, whereas in scripture it is all about correction, making one as he aught to be made, in the image and likeness of God.

If punishment was always to be understood as correction as it should be then I don't see why people have a problem with God correcting people in the age to come.

The Father punishes/corrects all men for thier benefit, all must be corrected and repent before entering into the gates of the city.

that's my take anyway.

[willieH]

willieH: Hi Paul...  :cloud9:

Know that I am not trying to convince you or anyone of anything...

I find several of your observations very good...

The greater misunderstanding is probably she doesn't get you Willie and that is of no consequence.

This is very true bud...  :nod:

For someone to say that no one can resist Gods love when God reveals himself is not a solid stand to take when there are scriptures that appear to show that God did reveal himself and they still rejected.

REVELATION is not an "all at once proposition"... which should be obvious to all Bible students...

That GOD is rejected is not due to REVELATION, rather is due to the LACK of it... When GOD decides to REVEAL, resistence (as the Borg say) is futile!  And cannot occur.

For if God intended for them to resist, even though he revealed himself to them, they indeed still resisted at the advent of him being revealed by all the things he did.

This is true GOD's intentions shall always occur which include resistance, despite man's percieved "revelation" OF HIM...

Possibly the message in that passage is that God is in control and no matter the reason for someones resistance, even if by Gods own hand, he will forgive them.

Again, an inspired comment... GOD justifies according to PERFECT Justification.  No man, despite his inadaquate ability to observe that JUSTIFICATION, is qualified to question it... (Rom 9:18-21)

In any event, was Gods Love revealed to them in this passage or not?   And did they resist or not?


11The LORD said to Moses, " I have done great things for these people, and they still reject me by refusing to believe in my power. 12So they will no longer be my people. I will destroy them, but I will make you the ancestor of a nation even stronger than theirs."

GOD is LOVE... His POWER is therefore LOVE, ...so ANY REVELATION of Himself, is a REVELATION of LOVE...

GOD revealed enough of His LOVE to them as much as shall found HIS WORD to be TRUTH...  which He DID in making His POWER known TO THEM...

But that Revelation is LESS than that which DECLARES the "ancestor of a nation" within it as well... and which shall succeed...

So in the end, the degree of REVELATION was enough to show GOD and HIS POWER, but not enough for these people to behold and cherish that power, and thereby NOT REJECT it...

This is prevalent in ALL MEN... only SOME or FEW are REVEALED, the rest, ...even among those which are considered HIS PEOPLE as these were (Christians/Jews), come up short by REJECTING the truth. 

And it is because GOD does not REVEAL Himself in an UNRESISTANT and HOLY degree TO most...

NO ONE has RESISTED His WILL... part of that WILL is that some REJECT, even though they are shown the truth... as in the case of the above Scripture, and most CHRISTIANITY...

REJECTION as well as SUBMISSION, ...is ALL within the WISDOM and PURPOSE of YHVH, as He does ALL HIS PLEASURE... (Is 46:10)


peacE...
...willieH  :laughing7:

[Molly]

willieH: Hi Molly... :hithere:

Wish to dance  :bgdance: ...with me again doya?  :dontknow:

for when GOD REVEALS Himself, no one can resist HIS love... It is not necessary for it to be generated from WICKED MEN...

11The LORD said to Moses, " I have done great things for these people, and they still reject me by refusing to believe in my power. 12So they will no longer be my people. I will destroy them, but I will make you the ancestor of a nation even stronger than theirs."




26The LORD told Moses and Aaron 27-28to give this message to the people of Israel:

   You sinful people have complained against me too many times! Now I swear by my own life that I will give you exactly what you wanted.  29You will die right here in the desert, and your dead bodies will cover the ground. You have insulted me, and none of you men who are over twenty years old 30will enter the land that I solemnly promised to give you as your own--only Caleb and Joshua  will go in. 31You were worried that your own children would be captured. But I, the LORD, will let them enter the land you have rejected. 32You will die here in the desert! 33Your children will wander around in this desert forty years, suffering because of your sins, until all of you are dead. 34I will cruelly punish you every day for the next forty years--one year for each day that the land was explored. 35You sinful people who ganged up against me will die here in the desert.

(Rom 9:16)  So then it is NOT of him that WILLETH, NOT of him that RUNNETH, but OF GOD that sheweth mercy...  :dontknow:

(Rom 9:18)  THEREFORE, hath HE mercy on whom HE WILL, and whom HE WILL, ...HE HARDENETH...  :dontknow:

(Rom 9:19  Thou wilt SAY then unto me, WHY doth HE yet ...FIND FAULT?  For ...WHO hath RESISTED HIS WILL?   :dontknow:

(Rom 9:20)  Nay but O ...MAN... who art THOU that repliest [talks back] against GOD?  Shall the thing FORMED say to Him that FORMED it,  WHY hast THOU ...MADE ME... thus?  :dontknow:

(Rom 9:21)  Hath not the POTTER, power OVER the CLAY, of the same lump to MAKE one vessel unto honor and another unto dishonor?  :dontknow:

Something that is MADE is not in the actual decision making process...  :dontknow:

If you don't GET IT... you don't GET IT...  :dontknow:  ...And dear sister Molly, ...you have already sufficiently shown beforehand and, NOW... BY this post, that YOU don't GET IT...  :dontknow:

peacE...
...willieH  :laughing7:

The point is--if they have no potential in themselves for behaving differently, why does he punish them for their actions/ "sins"?   Their actions bring a consequence to them which infers that God believes himself that they could have acted differently but chose not to.   So, in this case, God has given them the capacity to do the right thing, and yet, they refuse--therefore they are punished.  He forgives them (because Moses asks him to) but he paints an image of their carcasses lying in the desert that cannot be forgotten. There was something required of them which they failed at.  It is on their heads, not God's.


You sinful people have complained against me too many times! Now I swear by my own life that I will give you exactly what you wanted.  29You will die right here in the desert, and your dead bodies will cover the ground. You have insulted me, and none of you men who are over twenty years old 30will enter the land that I solemnly promised to give you as your own--only Caleb and Joshua  will go in. 31You were worried that your own children would be captured. But I, the LORD, will let them enter the land you have rejected. 32You will die here in the desert! 33Your children will wander around in this desert forty years, suffering because of your sins, until all of you are dead. 34I will cruelly punish you every day for the next forty years--one year for each day that the land was explored. 35You sinful people who ganged up against me will die here in the desert.

[jabcat]

Hi Molly.  Perhaps God set even that scenario into motion, to make a point and serve His purpose...similar to Him hardening Pharoh's heart.  Pharoh also disobeyed, but God was in control of that situation.  My  :2c:.  I personally tend to see God ultimately being in control of all, but in doing so, I have to take into account that there's sort of a paradox there, i.e., we either obey or disobey, but ultimately it's God working all according to His will.  I'm sure I don't fully understand it.  Our Dad's complicated and we're pretty puny, eh?   God's blessing, James.   :peckblush:.

[Molly]

Jab, do you think that all of us are always living up to the capacity that God has given us 100 percent?

Or, is it possible we could try harder, and for, whatever reasons of our own, we don't?

I agree with AI  that God is a God of justice.

Thus, I don't see why he would punish people for something over which they have no control.

That would be like punishing a retarded person because they could not read at the college level.

My God would not do that.

Luke 12:48
But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.

[jabcat]

I'll repeat this as I edited my post and added this..."I personally tend to see God ultimately being in control of all, but in doing so, I have to take into account that there's sort of a paradox there, i.e., we either obey or disobey, but ultimately it's God working all according to His will.  I'm sure I don't fully understand it."

Jab, do you think that all of us are always living up to the capacity that God has given us 100 percent?

Or, is it possible we could try harder, and for, whatever reasons of our own, we don't?

I agree with AI  that God is a God of justice.

To answer your Q wrt us living up to our capacity, no, not really.  But here's the dilemma for me.  I don't believe I can do anything without God empowering me and working His will through me.  I've tried it and failed miserably.  That's why the  scripture about living, breathing, having our being in Him is so important to me.  Soooooo...I guess personally, I'm at a place of reconciling the two...our personal responsibility vs/along with God's sovereignty....not quite there yet, I just lean toward, again, "God working all things according to the counsel of His will"...how that exactly plays out, I'm not sure.

[jabcat]

Looking at your scripture Mol, obviously I have to believe that.  But what strikes me is how big of a topic this is, and if any of us fully understand it.  I mean, this even gets into the topic of salvation...who's saved now and why now, and who's saved later, and why later and not now?  Because men are really able to reject Jesus, or because He is only choosing some now?  I will take no real hard dogmatic position on this, again, I just really lean toward God's sovereignity in all matters, thinking even my will and ability to believe and have faith is provided by Him.

[willieH]

willieH: Hi Scott... :hithere:

Hi Willie, brother I do not say this to hurt or shame you but so you can maybe see where Mary is comming from.

Your motive really doesn't matter to me Scott... but I do appreciate again, you willingness to address me in peace...  :happyclap:

one does not have to say the exact word to express one believes the other to be in error or immature.

If I do not STATE the exact word, is to surmise assumption in and of my words...  :dontknow:

Let me give you an example, you said

We are the ETERNAL Sons of GOD... we have ALWAYS BEEN... you just see yourself as FINITE, because your view is from the NATURAL... and is of OTHRODOX roots...

And

Nothing wrong with sticking to the love of JESUS Mary Ellen... but rash statements such as you have made in this thread, shall be noted as ORTHODOX and unfounded concerning Scriptural basis...

Now if you said that my views were NATURAL and ORTHODOX, to me you are expressing that I would be IMMATURE and in ERROR. For the NATURAL mind cannot comprehend the things of God and I know you believe the ORTHODOX to be in ERROR/WRONG.

ORTHODOX teaches eternal torment correct? And you do believe eternal torment to be wrong do you not?

No brother, I do NOT consider it WRONG... I consider it VEILED... there is a difference... and there IS a PURPOSE in it's presence in Christian thought...

Albeit a clumsy illustration...

If GOD has a large locked garage in which a certain number of cars are parked... and I determine by information HE has to date, provided me that the number is four, when it is actually two...

The VEIL (lack of revelation) is that which has prevented me from KNOWING the EXACT number, and my best "observation" is not a determination which is WRONG...
it is a determination which (by GOD's decision) is made by lack of VISION of the CORRECT number...

I do not determine another WRONG, because that in essence, would be according to MY VIEW as compared to THEIRS... However...

If you and I are in DISCUSSION, and I show BIBLICAL basis for a given thing, and you argue with me STRICTLY from your viewpoint and DO NOT produce BIBLICAL basis... then the VEIL which in part, exists is the refusal to cooperatively address our two views as COMPARED to SCRIPTURE, not compared to ONE ANOTHER...

Mary continuously refused to reveal her view as it is founded in the Word...  :dontknow: 

So Mary was not baring false witness of you bro, she may have misunderstood your meaning just as I would have and so to I believe would others.

Now you may not have meant it that way bro but that how it comes across.

Sorry Scott... I appreciate what you say here, ...but it is NOT acceptable to me... As I explained above, VEILED as opposed to INCORRECT or WRONG is my observation...

Just as JESUS "came across" to the Pharisees (religious of their day/people of God)... so is this situation...

Because the answer is UNAVAILABLE to a given person, does not equate them to being WRONG... I do not percieve Mary to be WRONG, and have told her so... She or you don't accept that... not my problem bro...

The JEWS to which JESUS spoke PARABLES to, ...were NOT WRONG as they surmised Him ..."killing Himself" or ...wondered "HOW JESUS could re-erect in THREE DAYS, that which took Years to erect", etc...

UNDERSTANDING of what was TRULY being stated by CHRIST in SPIRITUAL terms, was WITHHELD from their NATURAL view of those terms...

So their view of His Words remained a NATURAL (veiled) observation, not a WRONG observation...

I'll get to the rest later brother, gotta go play some tunes...

peacE...
...willieH  :laughing7:

[autoimmune]

Jab, do you think that all of us are always living up to the capacity that God has given us 100 percent?

Or, is it possible we could try harder, and for, whatever reasons of our own, we don't?

I agree with AI  that God is a God of justice.

Thus, I don't see why he would punish people for something over which they have no control.

That would be like punishing a retarded person because they could not read at the college level.

My God would not do that.

Luke 12:48
But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.

Hi, Molly. As women when we read scripture we cannot help but apply it in our own lives according to the experiences we have as women.  Being a mom and grandma, I came to understand the interplay between God's justice, mercy and love through the eyes of child-rearing. My thoughts went something like this:

Before children are taught to value reason and logic too heavily, they understand intuitively that what adult men teach about God and His ways "just isn't fair" very often.  We can learn a lot from children about God's Justice, imo.

Children don't mind correcting if it is "fair."  In fact, they often seem relieved when the correction is done with love.  

On the other hand, they will kick and scream bloody murder when they sense the punishment is "unfair," out of proportion, or done from a spirit of anger, rather than love.

In an earlier post I gave my basic position on God's Justice.  I see it as an equation of sorts:  Justice + Mercy = Love.  When this equation is observed in disciplining children, they don't mind taking the natural or logical consequences of their actions.

Over the past centuries when men's ideas about hell were formulated and ingrained into society, they used a formula more like this:  Justice = Punishment.

The two became identified with each other. And so, many ET Christians then reasoned that punishment is part of God's Love.

But, children who are punished (and told it is "just" because they have done wrong) immediately know and respond to the lack of mercy they feel, but usually cannot identify.

Now many Christians seem to be creating a new equation:  Mercy = Love.

When parents are so "merciful" to their children that they never require them to be responsible for their wrong doing, it is permissive human love, not Godly Love.  The child grows up unable to love others because they have no sense of responsibility for the harm they do others.

I know many UR Christians have as much difficulty with the concept of Justice being anything but God's Love for us as ET Christians have with God's Justice being anything but punishment for sin.  Understood correctly, in light of Jesus' teachings about mercy being required, not sacrifice if we wish to understand God's justice, it is easier to see how it may all work together.

Christ is God's Mercy.  When justice is executed through Him, it becomes Love.

ME

[autoimmune]

To answer your Q wrt us living up to our capacity, no, not really.  But here's the dilemma for me.  I don't believe I can do anything without God empowering me and working His will through me.  I've tried it and failed miserably.  That's why the  scripture about living, breathing, having our being in Him is so important to me. 

I agree, James, it's all a grace. I've already identified who and what I am like outside of God's grace earlier in this thread, so I certainly understand what you are saying.  Yet, don't we "knock, seek, and ask" for that grace as Jesus instructed us to do?  Don't we respond to it or not? And isn't there an element of choice tied into grace?

Jesus tells us that many are called, but few are chosen. 

Ever consider the possibility that God "called" a dozen men to the role before Moses accepted it--and thereby became "chosen"?

Or how many women the angel might have approached and "called" before Mary agreed to the grace offered her and became "chosen" as the mother of Jesus?

I have :)

So, each time I get to feeling grateful for being "chosen," I immediately understand that at any point along the way I might, because I fail to respond to grace, just become another one of the "called," who will end up going through a different path to God than I might have as one chosen to be in His Body.

There is an interplay between grace and free choice, imo.  Our wills may not be free in this life because God, others, the world are always impinging upon it, but God has given us the freedom to choose Love or not, no matter what our circumstance.

Soooooo...I guess personally, I'm at a place of reconciling the two...our personal responsibility vs/along with God's sovereignty....not quite there yet, I just lean toward, again, "God working all things according to the counsel of His will"...how that exactly plays out, I'm not sure.

When I was a teenage, I argued with a nun in class about this very issue of predetermination.  She couldn't give me an answer that satisfied, but after class my friend Sue explained it in a way I could . . . as the eternal Now being a humongous series of choices all men make through linear time that God uses, no matter what we choose in any given situation.  He is aware of those choices as we make them, but does not cause us TO make them.  No matter which way we choose, He still is able to complete His plan for us.  May take ten tries before He gets a Moses or Mary, but eventually one of the called accepts the grace to be chosen. It's not like our temporal time is a problem for Him :)

The why of it for me is Love. Without that free choice Love cannot exist. But, because God wills us to love Him freely, that required sin, justice, mercy and a host of other doctrinal issues we all argue about to come into play. The process we've mentioned several times here on this thread is, imo, the process of man learning what it means to be in a Love relationship with His Creator. And, through His grace, all men will eventually bend their knees to Love and accept what they might have chosen before to refuse for whatever reason.

ME


 

[Molly]

Hi, Mary Ellen,

"Christ is God's mercy."  That's a great way of putting it.  I also agree that there will be some formula of mercy and justice which will seem reasonable to us.

 It doesn't seem reasonable to me that God will overlook what a Hitler did, or even somehow restore him.  John the baptist says the axe is at the root of the tree.  We do have some control over how we behave and what choices we make.  Anyone who has known an abuser knows that when it suits him, he can treat everyone kindly and with respect.  That shows he has control over his behavior.  If he should choose to be abusive when he perceives the upper hand, that is also a choice.  I think God is calling us to pay attention and consciously make the right choice.  If he gives us everything we need to make the right choice, and we do not, then justice requires some sort of evening of the scales.   Otherwise, evil rules.  When Jesus says, take the beam out of your own eye, he expects us to do something.  He is calling us to action.  I think we get our sense of 'fairness,' as you noticed in those children, from God.




1Some of you accuse others of doing wrong. But there is no excuse for what you do. When you judge others, you condemn yourselves, because you are guilty of doing the very same things. 2We know that God is right to judge everyone who behaves in this way. 3Do you really think God won't punish you, when you behave exactly like the people you accuse? 4You surely don't think much of God's wonderful goodness or of his patience and willingness to put up with you. Don't you know that the reason God is good to you is because he wants you to turn to him?

   5But you are stubborn and refuse to turn to God. So you are making things even worse for yourselves on that day when he will show how angry he is and will judge the world with fairness. 6God will reward each of us for what we have done. 7He will give eternal life to everyone who has patiently done what is good in the hope of receiving glory, honor, and life that lasts forever. 8But he will show how angry and furious he can be with every selfish person who rejects the truth and wants to do evil. 9All who are wicked will be punished with trouble and suffering. It doesn't matter if they are Jews or Gentiles. 10But all who do right will be rewarded with glory, honor, and peace, whether they are Jews or Gentiles. 11God doesn't have any favorites!

   12Those people who don't know about God's Law will still be punished for what they do wrong. And the Law will be used to judge everyone who knows what it says. 13God accepts those who obey his Law, but not those who simply hear it.

   14Some people naturally obey the Law's commands, even though they don't have the Law. 15This proves that the conscience is like a law written in the human heart. And it will show whether we are forgiven or condemned, 16when God appoints Jesus Christ to judge everyone's secret thoughts, just as my message says.

--Romans 2

[jabcat]

I also believe in God's justice, I just don't think it's as many in ET teach it, i.e., "God sends people to hell forever and ever and that's justice!".  I believe God chastises and will reward and punish as He sees fit and as it fits the crime.  However, as was earlier alluded to, I believe it will ultimately be as a Father disciplines His children, not as a torturer.  Make no mistake, God's judgments can be painful, but I believe ultimately for our good and His glory.

Wrt restoring Hitler...I don't see it as restoring Hitler, but more so God reclaiming a spirit that came from Him, and to do so, He will cleanse and purge it as by fire...the flesh (sin, anything that dishonors God and is unholy) destroyed "so the soul may be saved as by fire"...the works built on sand destroyed, picked up from the threshing floor, cast into the fire and burned.  Hitler won't be Hitler anymore...Hitler will no longer exist.  The spirit/soul will be the only thing of value to be saved...as with us all.  I also tend to understand God's fire as being His awesome, consuming presence, in which nothing can stand apart from being sustained by God's holiness and the power of His Spirit...which obviously excludes flesh/sin.  I may be wrong, but that's the way I'm leaning, as I'm not sure God really needs actual "fire" to accomplish His ultimate, divine purpose(s).

Anyway, some of my thoughts...maybe I'll have more understanding later (bye and bye, when the morning comes, when all the saints of God are gathered home, we will tell the story of how we've overcome, and we'll understand it better bye and bye).

God's blessing, James.

[Molly]

 

Hitler won't be Hitler anymore...Hitler will have served his purpose in God's plan and will no longer need to exist.

I'm just thinking out loud, here, Jab, so don't think I am committed to one way of thinking or another.  But, what if Hitler was not part of God's plan?  Or--what if God is allowing evil to get bigger and bigger until we no longer can stand it anymore and we do something about it ourselves?

Certainly, we learned nothing from Hitler.  60 years later it's deja vu all over again.

I think that everyone is just evil enough to go along to get along--for as long as they can stand it--even if they are witnesses to everything unholy.

Maybe God is allowing us to be pushed to our limit--until one day we can see?

[jabcat]

Yeah, again, I'm thinking and learning...being led through a process.  One thing that strikes me about what you say is "maybe God is allowing us to be pushed to our limit--until one day we can see?"  IMO, that may be very well part of what He's doing, but to me, then that would be His plan and He would ultimately still be in control...you know, the "man devises His plans but God directs His steps" thing.  These last few months I have really been s/w in turmoil about these types of topics, and it seems God is using some others on here to teach me about evil, how God uses it to teach us His goodness (and I believe increase our reliance on Him toward totality), how He contrasts His Light against the darkness, how sickness shows us how good health is, etc.  I still don't feel like I've "got it figured out yet", but if I accept that scripture teaches God creates evil (and I believe it does), then I also believe there's got to be a good reason for it, that is ultimately GOOD.  My mind and thoughts (that are not His thoughts) sometimes just really grope and meander around as He leads me into understanding.  I used to think I had the answers to this stuff, you know, God good, Satan bad...thinking that explained it all.  But then, oops...what about God's sovereignty, His being in control, His creating evil...then it's been 'yikes', what's the 'splanation for that?  :laughing7:.  Oh well, God is merciful and teaches us a little at a time.  He knows what we can handle.  James.

[Molly]

Something Mary Ellen just said--

"He is aware of those choices as we make them, but does not cause us TO make them.  No matter which way we choose, He still is able to complete His plan for us.  May take ten tries before He gets a Moses or Mary, but eventually one of the called accepts the grace to be chosen. It's not like our temporal time is a problem for Him :)"

The thought behind that is that it will go according to God's plan, but it takes a person to step up to the plate.  Moses tried to refuse, but God kept overcoming his objections--which leads me to believe that Moses did not have to take the job.  Same thing with Gideon.  Interesting, also, how God picks people who do not wish to have that role (of power) for themselves.  Then he has to talk them into it lol.

Anyway, it makes me think of the story of Joseph, too, how the brothers intended it for evil but God intended it for good.  No matter how bad it looked, God pushed it around so that the end result would be good--the saving of many lives.

Yet, and here's the rub, could all of this happen sooner [God's kingdom on earth] if everyone would step up to the plate?  Or, another way to look at it, will it not happen --until--we are all ready to step up to the plate?

It's not like we don't know better.  Then, why do we continue to allow evil to be done on such a massive scale?

[autoimmune]

Yet, and here's the rub, could all of this happen sooner if everyone would step up to the plate?  Or, another way to look at it, will it not happen --until--we are all ready to step up to the plate?

Your thought runs parallel to one I have about Christ's promised return.  Is it that He has delayed, or that His return is predicated on the Body coming full stature?  I don't believe the Body has come full stature simply because, for centuries, Christians have believed that the reason they preach the gospel is to save sinners from hell.  How can a Body of Love be built out of fear?

If, as I believe, the reason we were given the Great Commission is so that those with eyes to see and ears to hear can be found so the church (ekklesia, called out ones) can be built to the full stature of Christ . . . then no wonder He hasn't returned yet!

I believe that when He does those of us still alive and in the Body will not be "raptured" off the earth while the rest suffer, but that we will be transformed into our immortal Body here on earth to help the Bride as she is cleansed (those in organized religions, who believe what they've been told about ET, rapture, and a number of other unloving doctrines misinterpreted from scripture).  Once death loses it's sting, then nothing can stop the Word of God--and the meek truly will inherit and reclaim the earth.

It's not like we don't know better.  Then, why do we continue to allow evil to be done on such a massive scale?

Because the gospel hasn't really BEEN preached?  Man's doctrines about the scriptures have been taught, not the good news about the Kingdom of God.

To be honest, I don't think the majority of Christians DO know better.

ME

[jabcat]

  Moses tried to refuse, but God kept overcoming his objections--which leads me to believe that Moses did not have to take the job.  Same thing with Gideon. 

Some I've read would say that's exactly how God does it...that He creates the circumstances so we will choose to do what fits His plan...that we have the ability to make choices, choices that are framed within only the options God gives us, but that that still doesn't equate to what we call "free will".

  Interesting, also, how God picks people who do not wish to have that role (of power) for themselves.  Then he has to talk them into it lol.

It is interesting...maybe something about humility and those He has made ready.  "Talks us into it", "directs our steps"...maybe the same thing?

I believe that when He does those of us still alive and in the Body will not be "raptured" off the earth while the rest suffer, but that we will be transformed into our immortal Body here on earth to help the Bride as she is cleansed (those in organized religions, who believe what they've been told about ET, rapture, and a number of other unloving doctrines misinterpreted from scripture).  Once death loses it's sting, then nothing can stop the Word of God--and the meek truly will inherit and reclaim the earth.

:thumbsup:

Because the gospel hasn't really BEEN preached?  Man's doctrines about the scriptures have been taught, not the good news about the Kingdom of God.

To be honest, I don't think the majority of Christians DO know better.

ME

That's partly what I was saying about "we operate within the amount of Light we've been given".  I've personally said some stupid things that at the time I didn't know were stupid.  I'll say some stupid things again that later I'll realize were stupid again.  As God leads into His Light He dispels the (my) darkness....thank you Lord for your mercy and longsuffering.

God's blessing, James.