soul destroyed in Gehenna

[Tom]

What you said was "Folks are catching on to the fact that gehenna was not a garbage dump" as if it is a "fact," but it's not a "fact" because there is no way to really verify that just like there is no way to really verify that it was a "garbage dump." It may be somebody's idea that it wasn't, but it's not a "fact." I don't see the point in debating about "Gehenna" being a so called "garbage dump" anyway. What I think happened in "Gehenna" in the past is what I've read from various sources, but I wasn't there. What I believe Christ was talking about when he spoke of "Gehenna," not "hell" as the King James tried to deceive people into thinking, was that the Jews would be executed for certain crimes and have their corpses burned in "Gehenna" which I think must have been considered to be a dishonorable death because they wouldn't be getting a proper burial, and I also think they may have been familiar with the practice after having seen or heard about it being done before whether it happened in the time of Christ or not. As I said before, all of this, just as with all history, should be taken with a grain of salt because, even if it's been documented, it is still open to speculation and interpretation. I've read from various sources that not only were the corpses of executed criminals burned in "Gehenna," but also the carcasses of dead sacrificial animals. Whether the city "garbage" of Jerusalem was burned along with the dead bodies is something I don't think can be proven or disproved, but I don't see the point in making a big deal about it. If dead bodies were "dumped" there to be burned, it could still be said to be a "dump," but who cares? What's the point of making a big deal about "Gehenna" not being a "garbage dump" anyway? I think some people might just prefer that "Gehenna" be considered as a figurative interpretation of "hell" rather than a literal place where the dead bodies of executed criminals will be burned in the next eon instead of the immortal souls of all unbelievers being tortured in fire forever there, but, as usual, I prefer to believe the literal interpretation, and I think that's what Christ was warning about. I think it's a waste of time to debate whether the city "garbage" of Jerusalem was burned along with the dead bodies. So, if you want to debate that with somebody, find somebody else because I say who cares?

[Seth]

Tom you seem to think I brought it up to debate your literal view. Which is maybe why you keep bringing up my "fact" statement even though I clarified.

The OP said "Why does it use the word Gehenna, the garbagedump?"

And my point to Abigail, not you, was that there seems to be  no evidence that it was used by Christ for that reason. I believe it was used as a scriptural reference to Israel's history with idolatry and it's consequences (resulting in the murder of their children). My statements were for the OP not to debate you.

[micah7:9]

Tom you seem to think I brought it up to debate your literal view. Which is maybe why you keep bringing up my "fact" statement even though I clarified.

The OP said "Why does it use the word Gehenna, the garbagedump?"

And my point to Abigail, not you, was that there seems to be  no evidence that it was used by Christ for that reason. I believe it was used as a scriptural reference to Israel's history with idolatry and it's consequences (resulting in the murder of their children). My statements were for the OP not to debate you.

:thumbsup:

[Tom]

I understand what you're saying, and I realized that. I was just saying that I don't think it's a "fact" either way. I've read about a lot of history being bogus info. Who is to know for sure what happened way back then? I think the important thing is that scripture seems to be saying that Christ was talking about corpses being burned in "Gehenna" not immortal souls being tortured in fire forever as orthodox doctrine wants us to believe.

[Seth]

Yes I agree about how there's also no evidence that he used gehenna as a symbol of another place called hell. As an ETer, I took that for granted too.

I see a difference between fact and established fact. It could be a fact that aliens exist. But it's not an established fact though, which we both agree on. My revised way of saying it hopefully explained better what I meant. It COULD be a fact that gehenna was a garbage dump and we just don't know. Maybe evidence will surface about that.

My concern is that there is alot of UR literature which refers to the garbage dump then proceeds to develop interpretation on THAT basis. If ETers rightly challenge that such UR interpretations are based on unestablished facts, it could cast a shadow over the abundance of scriptural arguments UR does have.

[Tom]

I understand, brother. I think we have to exercise some faith when dealing with all of history. We get information from a lot of sources about a lot of stuff, and at some point we have to decide what we think makes the most sense and believe that. I try to keep an open mind willing to change about anything that may even be sacred if I get some new information that seems like it is truth. I had a hard time accepting universal reconciliation when I first mysteriously became aware of it by getting bounced from a die hard King James site to one about it, but I didn't immediately dismiss it. I spent a lot of time reading as much information as I could about it online until I got so much evidence supported by an accurate translation of scripture that it is the truth that I just had to believe it. It's hard to let go of tradition, but we're better off if we go with the truth regardless of where it leads us. We catch a lot of heat about universal reconciliation especially from fellow believers, but it's worth it to get the truth out there that has been so suppressed for so long. I mean they actually used to kill folks for believing it. So we don't have such a hard time these days, but the grip of orthodox theology is tight around the throats of folks in church threatening them with torture in fire forever. It is sad, but true. I think we just need to continue to share the truth of scripture with the world, and God will convince those who have been chosen. I think it's crazy how we sometimes get to going after each other in this battle instead of working together against the enemy because what we disagree on sometimes isn't so important. Everybody believes what they do because of their own life experiences. I don't think any of us are authorities. We're all just fellow students of the word of God which is the true authority. Doctrine can make you crazy if you let it, but, even though I'm half demented these days, I still have my sense of humor. So I don't sweat the small stuff. I prefer to just keep on grinning. So I'm not worried about if "Gehenna" should be called the old "garbage dump" of Jerusalem or not. I just think it was probably used to burn some live kids unfortunately and then some dead bodies a long time ago and probably will be used to burn some more dead bodies in the future, but I may be wrong because some of the information I've gotten may not be legit. I'm not going to get tense about it either way. So peace, bro.   

[Seth]

Peace   :friendstu:

BTW I have trouble sleeping too. It's frustrating.

[joeteekay]

Interesting discussion on the word Gehenna. Been around this one more than once. And I am sure it will come up again. My take on it is this.

Gehenna - this word refers to a garbage dump which burned just outside of Jerusalem and was referred to by Christ to symbolically describe the need to purge out sin and have it burned out of a Christian, just as wood, hay, and stubble is burned. Yes it was a literal garbage dump described in the OT. Christ used it in a figurative sense. If you read that He said things like "pluck out your eye" He obviously did not mean this literally. Christ spoke in parables as we know.

Jabcat had a real good comments on Gehenna some time ago on this forum, but I can not find it.

Also attached is a short analysis of all the places the word Gehenna is used in scripture. Only Christ and James used the word.
:Peace2:



[attachment deleted by admin]

[micah7:9]

Interesting discussion on the word Gehenna. Been around this one more than once. And I am sure it will come up again. My take on it is this.

Gehenna - this word refers to a garbage dump which burned just outside of Jerusalem and was referred to by Christ to symbolically describe the need to purge out sin and have it burned out of a Christian, just as wood, hay, and stubble is burned. Yes it was a literal garbage dump described in the OT. Christ used it in a figurative sense. If you read that He said things like "pluck out your eye" He obviously did not mean this literally. Christ spoke in parables as we know.

Jabcat had a real good comments on Gehenna some time ago on this forum, but I can not find it.

Also attached is a short analysis of all the places the word Gehenna is used in scripture. Only Christ and James used the word.
:Peace2:

"Jabcat had a real good comments on Gehenna some time ago on this forum, but I can not find it."
Yeah been looking for that to and asked Jabcat, but he said he came up blank. I know I seen it. :Peace2:

[Seth]

Gehenna - this word refers to a garbage dump which burned just outside of Jerusalem

Joeteekay, why do you believe it was a garbage dump? It's become a tradition in UR discussion, thought and literature that it was a garbage dump where also criminals were burned. I never questioned that before, but now I do because I want to see the evidence.

[sheila]

Jeremiah 7;31-34 speaks of Topeth[Hinnon and God's feelings about it....prophesied dead bodies fill it/birds eat their flesh...

   the valley of slaughter...from now on I will refer to it as Valley of slaughter. sounds like valley of dry bones.....they

  WILL NOT BE GATHERED UP OR BURIED>>BUT WILL BE LIKE REFUSE LYING ON THE GROUND.....

  there you go..appears this understanding of Gehenna/Topeth/Valley of Hinnon/Slaughter is tied in with this prophetic word

  of God through Jeremiah.

[joeteekay]

Gehenna - this word refers to a garbage dump which burned just outside of Jerusalem

Joeteekay, why do you believe it was a garbage dump? It's become a tradition in UR discussion, thought and literature that it was a garbage dump where also criminals were burned. I never questioned that before, but now I do because I want to see the evidence.

Doing more of a study on this since your question.

One source "Bible Hub" gives this:

Hinnom

(lamentation), Valley of, otherwise called "the valley of the son" or "children of Hinnom," a deep and narrow ravine, with steep, rocky sides, to the south and west of Jerusalem, separating Mount Zion to the north from the "hill of evil counsel," and the sloping rocky plateau of the "plain of Rephaim" to the south. The earliest mention of the valley of Hinnom is in (Joshua 15:8; 18:16) where the boundary line between the tribes of Judah and Benjamin is described as passing along the bed of the ravine. On the southern brow, overlooking the valley at its eastern extremity Solomon erected high places for Molech, (1 Kings 11:7) whose horrid rites were revived from time to time in the same vicinity the later idolatrous kings. Ahaz and Manasseh made their children "pass through the fire" in this valley, (2 Kings 16:3; 2 Chronicles 28:3; 33:6) and the fiendish custom of infant sacrifice to the fire-gods seems to have been kept up in Tophet, which was another name for this place. To put an end to these abominations the place was polluted by Josiah, who renders it ceremonially unclean by spreading over it human bones and other corruptions, (2 Kings 23:10,13,14; 2 Chronicles 34:4,5) from which time it appears to have become the common cesspool of the city, into which sewage was conducted, to be carried off by the waters of the Kidron. From its ceremonial defilement, and from the detested and abominable fire of Molech, if not from the supposed ever-burning funeral piles, the later Jews applied the name of this valley --Ge Hinnom, Gehenna (land of Hinnom)--to denote the place of eternal torment. In this sense the word is used by our Lord. (Matthew 5:29; 10:28; 23:15; Mark 9:43; Luke 12:5)

[Seth]

the common cesspool of the city, into which sewage was conducted, to be carried off by the waters of the Kidron. 

This is the part I am wondering about. There's no doubt an atrocity occurred there, which is what I believe Jesus is using as a symbol. But the notion that the city was using it as a dumping ground and burning the bodies of dead criminals, particularly during the time of Christ's ministry, there seems to be no Biblical evidence or archeological evidence for that.

[micah7:9]

I suspect that "garbage dump" is just a cultural [big word here I had to look up] euphemism. Meaning it is easier to use than explain perhaps the history of Molech and the valleys history. My  :2c:

[Tom]

Even if no food refuse or sewage from Jerusalem was discarded in "Gehenna" in the past, dead bodies of executed criminals and sacrificial animals being dumped there and burned means that "Gehenna" was a "garbage dump" if that really happened there because "garbage," "trash," or "refuse" is anything that's disposed of because it's seen as useless. That's why I think it was considered to be so dishonorable by the Jews to have their dead bodies thrown into the ravine of Hinnom, "Gehenna," to be burned. So maybe the "evidence" you seek is right there in scripture, but you need to decide if you believe it or not. Sometimes we can't see the forest for the trees. Who knows if it happened in the past or will in the future? But Christ seemed to be saying it will in scripture, and I think he was referring to Isaiah's prophecy when he did. I guess we just have to decide if we believe scripture is "evidence" or not for "Gehenna" being the "garbage dump" for dead bodies to be burned, at least in the future even if not in the past, just as we have to decide if scripture is "evidence" or not for the resurrection of Jesus Christ, but that's only if you have a literal interpretation of "Gehenna." I personally don't care if "Gehenna" was used as a "garbage dump" for the burning of dead bodies in the past, even though that's what I've read, but I think it will be in the future because I think that is what Christ was talking about.

"And it will come to be, as often as the new moon comes in its monthly time, And as often as the sabbath comes in its sabbath cycle, All flesh shall come to worship before Me, says Yahweh. And they will go forth and see the corpses of the mortals who transgressed against Me, For their worm shall not die, And their fire shall not be quenched, And they will become a repulsion to all flesh." (Isaiah 66:23,24)

[Seth]

Even if no food refuse or sewage from Jerusalem was discarded in "Gehenna" in the past, dead bodies of executed criminals and sacrificial animals being dumped there and burned means that "Gehenna" was a "garbage dump" if that really happened there because "garbage," "trash," or "refuse" is anything that's disposed of because it's seen as useless. That's why I think it was considered to be so dishonorable by the Jews to have their dead bodies thrown into the ravine of Hinnom, "Gehenna," to be burned.

As far as the scripture is concerned, Josiah desecrated Topheth making it ceremoniously unclean at one time in the past during that event. But as far as it becoming a place for the continual burning of trash and bodies of executed criminals, there seems to be no evidence of that. At the time Jesus spoke, it could have been a perfectly clean, beautiful area of grass and trees, and that Jesus was referring to it as a matter of scriptural history in his ministry.

So maybe the "evidence" you seek is right there in scripture, but you need to decide if you believe it or not. Sometimes we can't see the forest for the trees. Who knows if it happened in the past or will in the future?

There's evidence of a one time atrocity concerning the murder of children in fire to the gods which was desecrated by Josiah. There's no evidence of the continual burning place of dead criminals or refuse beyond that, that I know of.

But Christ seemed to be saying it will in scripture, and I think he was referring to Isaiah's prophecy when he did. I guess we just have to decide if we believe scripture is "evidence" or not for "Gehenna" being the "garbage dump" for dead bodies to be burned, at least in the future even if not in the past, just as we have to decide if scripture is "evidence" or not for the resurrection of Jesus Christ, but that's only if you have a literal interpretation of "Gehenna." I personally don't care if "Gehenna" was used as a "garbage dump" for the burning of dead bodies in the past, even though that's what I've read, but I think it will be in the future because I think that is what Christ is talking about.

"And it will come to be, as often as the new moon comes in its monthly time, And as often as the sabbath comes in its sabbath cycle, All flesh shall come to worship before Me, says Yahweh. And they will go forth and see the corpses of the mortals who transgressed against Me, For their worm shall not die, And their fire shall not be quenched, And they will become a repulsion to all flesh." (Isaiah 66:23 & 24)

That becomes a matter of interpretation because when you read the latter half of Isaiah, including chapter 66, there are evidences that this prophecy is veiled language concerning New Jerusalem, which itself is referred to as a bride of Christ. There is a lot of reason to interpret that chapter figuratively rather than literally. But, again that's not the issue for me. The issue for me is why did Christ use Gehenna as a metaphor.

[Seth]

Jesus says to his disciples to cut out their eyes and throw it into Gehenna. Why? What will happen if we don't? Our whole body is next...

This reminds me of what actually happened in Gehenna in the past: They worshipped Ba'al (one sin...) and then caused their children to pass into the fire (...leading to another sin).

James talks about this too. The tongue is a small fire that can cause a forest fire. It is like a small rudder that steers a larger ship. Jesus is saying, spiritually get rid of the parts that are a threat to the whole, that can lead one into a descent into such atrocities as burning children, or murdering your brother, or cheating on your wife etc. One sin leading to another until it consumes you. That is what I think the warning of Gehenna is all about..

[micah7:9]

Jesus says to his disciples to cut out their eyes and throw it into Gehenna. Why? What will happen if we don't? Our whole body is next...

This reminds me of what actually happened in Gehenna in the past: They worshipped Ba'al (one sin...) and then caused their children to pass into the fire (...leading to another sin).

James talks about this too. The tongue is a small fire that can cause a forest fire. It is like a small rudder that steers a larger ship. Jesus is saying, spiritually get rid of the parts that are a threat to the whole, that can lead one into a descent into such atrocities as burning children, or murdering your brother, or cheating on your wife etc. One sin leading to another until it consumes you. That is what I think the warning of Gehenna is all about..

:thumbsup:

[rosered]

the common cesspool of the city, into which sewage was conducted, to be carried off by the waters of the Kidron. 

This is the part I am wondering about. There's no doubt an atrocity occurred there, which is what I believe Jesus is using as a symbol. But the notion that the city was using it as a dumping ground and burning the bodies of dead criminals, particularly during the time of Christ's ministry, there seems to be no Biblical evidence or archeological evidence for that.

I love that you look things up to Joeteekay  and Sharing Seth and Tom , everyone


  I had looked these  up long ago and this is some refresher course   

God bless  :icon_flower:

     could be the  outer darkness    outside the City , Seth ?

http://www.abarim-publications.com/Meaning/Kidron.html#.VUz-IPlViko

[Seth]

Very interesting Rose  :thumbsup:

[Tom]

OK, I guess we're back in this thread now, and I still say I don't think you should assume that Christ used "Gehenna" as a "metaphor" even though you say "that's not the issue for me" because I happen to believe he was literally speaking of "Gehenna." And I still don't care if what I think will happen in the future happened in the past. I understand that some of the language used by Christ referring to "Gehenna" was not intended to be interpreted literally like plucking out the eye and cutting off the hand, but I still think he was talking about dead bodies actually being burned there or what would be the point?

[gregoryfl]

I also disagree with the garbage dump understanding. I personally link it with Isaiah 66:24; Jeremiah 7:32, 33; 19:7,8. Josephus also gives it an historical context as well (Jos. War 5.12.3). That this was a literal warning by Yeshua for those who would experience it when the Temple was destroyed.

Ronen

[Tom]

I think folks were always getting confused about what Jesus was saying because he often used figurative language, but that doesn't mean everything he said was figurative. I try to interpret everything literally unless it seems obvious that it can't be because I think that's how you should read all literature whether it's scripture or not. Obviously this is a continuous debate among those who read scripture, and I doubt it will end until we all know the full truth.

[rosered]

  Is this what Jabcat was    sharing a while back ?


http://www.godsplanforall.com/mistranslationstomeanhell

[Seth]

OK, I guess we're back in this thread now, and I still say I don't think you should assume that Christ used "Gehenna" as a "metaphor" even though you say "that's not the issue for me" because I happen to believe he was literally speaking of "Gehenna." And I still don't care if what I think will happen in the future happened in the past. I understand that some of the language used by Christ referring to "Gehenna" was not intended to be interpreted literally like plucking out the eye and cutting off the hand, but I still think he was talking about dead bodies actually being burned there or what would be the point?

How we interpret literally or figuratively, I don't think is the point of the OP. The point is WHY did Jesus use the term Gehenna? Did he do it because of the present-day-garbage-dump theory or as a scriptural reference. I think it was the latter. That has no bearing on whether or not you interpret Gehenna literally. You could still interpret it literally without the reason for usage being the garbage dump, criminal burning thing...

I think folks were always getting confused about what Jesus was saying because he often used figurative language, but that doesn't mean everything he said was figurative. I try to interpret everything literally unless it seems obvious that it can't be because I think that's how you should read all literature whether it's scripture or not. Obviously this is a continuous debate among those who read scripture, and I doubt it will end until we all know the full truth.

I think the reason it will continue is because there is no scriptural mandate to take either approach.