Matthew 10:28 has already been discussed in earlier times, yet what is not fully clear to me yet:
It says 'rather be afraid of Him who can destroy both soul and body in Gehenna', yet I wonder whether 'Him' should be with a capital. Is this scripture speaking about God? In the Concordant a neutral word is used (though singular, where earlier in the verse the same word is used plural).
Furthermore, if this is about God, this would probably mean something like leaving people over to their sin and the consequences there of. Why does it use the word Gehenna, the garbagedump?
I would love to know your thoughts.
I just looked up a parallel scripture in Luke 12. Again, the same neutral word (ton).
Yet here it says not destroy body and soul, but: after killing, has power to hurl into Gehenna.
If you would take this scripture very literally, it would just say: some people can only kill you, some have authority to throw you on the garbage dump instead of giving you a decent funeral. Yet if it would be explained that way, I don't understand what's the point (why Jesus is warning people for this).
I think Jesus is warning the Jews about this because it was considered to be a dishonorable death without a proper burial to have your dead body cast into "Gehenna" to be burned with the garbage of Jerusalem. The important thing is to know that Jesus was talking about "Gehenna" not "hell" like the King James wants you to believe twelve times where it has been intentionally mistranslated.
Man can destroy the body, but who else but God could destroy the soul?
you have to remember who He was speaking to. the elders,jewish leaders/preisthood class..of to whom the promises belonged......
......the glory of Israel in relationship to God was involved. they would/could find themselves in a shameful situation instead of
partaking of God's glory.
my :2c:
Quote from: Abigail on May 07, 2015, 11:09:37 PM
Matthew 10:28 has already been discussed in earlier times, yet what is not fully clear to me yet:
It says 'rather be afraid of Him who can destroy both soul and body in Gehenna', yet I wonder whether 'Him' should be with a capital. Is this scripture speaking about God? In the Concordant a neutral word is used (though singular, where earlier in the verse the same word is used plural).
Furthermore, if this is about God, this would probably mean something like leaving people over to their sin and the consequences there of. Why does it use the word Gehenna, the garbagedump?
I would love to know your thoughts.
As far as I know, Gehenna was not a garbage dump, or at least there's no empirical evidence it was. I think the reason he refers to is scriptural. I think the fire is associated with idolatry, specifically in Jeremiah, that which was used to honor the gods by sacrificing children to them. I do believe it is about leaving them to their sin which God does compare to fire often in the Bible.
BTW, in Matt 10, he is speaking to his disciples.
http://concordant.org/expohtml/DeathAndJudgment/TheGehennaOfFire.html
Folks are catching on to the fact that gehenna was not a garbage dump, or that at least there's no evidence for that
http://blog.bibleplaces.com/2011/04/myth-of-burning-garbage-dump-of-gehenna.html?m=1
I think what's been said about Moloch worship there could be dismissed too by saying there's no "evidence." I guess it depends on what you mean by "evidence." I think history in general has to be taken with a grain of salt, but, as usual, I have a literal interpretation of "Gehenna" while I know you have a figurative interpretation, bro. I don't think it's accurate to say, "Folks are catching on to the fact that gehenna was not a garbage dump." I don't see how you can say that's a "fact" just because some blog says so. Everything about "Gehenna" in the past is open to speculation and interpretation, but the "fact" is that "Gehenna" is a real place now, not just some figurative interpretation of "hell."
http://what-the-hell-is-hell.com/topics/hellphotos/
That Gehenna is a real place is not disputed. That it was a garbage dump in Christ's day is disputed.
That may be, and that it's a figurative interpretation of hell is also disputed. But it's not a "fact that gehenna was not a garbage dump."
Ok, I'll revise it. Folks are catching on that the idea that Gehenna was a garbage dump for the burning of criminals in Christ's day is not established by facts or evidence.
Nobody said "it was a garbage dump in Christ's day" anyway.
I've heard that it was many times in UR discussions Tom. I used to believe it myself based on all the UR articles I had read,
I meant in our discussion, bro. I've just read that it was used to burn the corpses of executed criminals as well as the carcasses of sacrificed animals and the city refuse in the past, and that it will be used to burn the corpses of executed criminals again in the coming eon which is what I think Isaiah 66:23,24 refers to. But, like I said, that's all speculation and interpretation just like the claim that it wasn't used to burn the corpses of executed criminals, sacrificial animal carcasses, and the city trash of Jerusalem in the past sometime but not specifically in Christ's time. I believe Christ is warning about the possibility of somebody suffering the same dishonorable fate of having his corpse burned in "Gehenna" in the next eon, and the Jews must have been familiar with the practice for it to affect their behavior which I think is why Christ mentioned it.
Quote from: Tom on May 08, 2015, 04:24:30 AM
I meant in our discussion, bro. I've just read that it was used to burn the corpses of executed criminals as well as the carcasses of sacrificed animals and the city refuse in the past, and that it will be used to burn the corpses of executed criminals again in the coming eon which is what I think Isaiah 66:23,24 refers to. But, like I said, that's all speculation and interpretation just like the claim that it wasn't used to burn the corpses of executed criminals, sacrificial animal carcasses, and the city trash of Jerusalem in the past sometime but not specifically in Christ's time.
I believe I revised my statement about that, right? And I wasn't claiming that YOU believed it. I think you are being a bit defensive about this. I am not making any claims about what YOU believe. :HeartThrob:
I don't think it's worth staying up and arguing about, bro, because I'm ready to crash. If you want to believe they didn't burn anything in "Gehenna," that's all right with me. I'm still trying to get over this virus. So I'm going to try to get some rest now. If you have something else to say, I'll check it out tomorrow.
BTW, what I had said was: "Folks are catching on to the fact that gehenna was not a garbage dump, or that at least there's no evidence for that"
Right, but it ain't a "fact." Good night.
Quote from: Tom on May 08, 2015, 04:29:18 AM
I don't think it's worth staying up and arguing about, bro, because I'm ready to crash. If you want to believe they didn't burn anything in "Gehenna," that's all right with me. I'm still trying to get over this virus. So I'm going to try to get some rest now. If you have something else to say, I'll check it out tomorrow.
I didn't say they didn't burn anything in Gehenna. Jeremiah is pretty clear that they did, their own children.
Quote from: Tom on May 08, 2015, 04:30:14 AM
Right, but it ain't a "fact." Good night.
How do you know it aint a fact that it was never a garbage dump? It could be a fact either way, we just don't know. But all I am saying is that we probably shouldn't talk about it as a fact if we don't have any evidence. Is that so wrong?
I had this scripture in mind...Mt 23;33 you snakes you brood of vipers!. How will you escape being condemned to hell.
NIV has hell cross-referenced as Gehenna. Doesn't it seem strange that God whom it never entered His heart to burn his children
would speak of hell and the fires of Gehenna..unto the 'generation' of vipers and snakes? That convinces me that Jesus was directly
addressing the evil contrast/spirit tool on those men...and not the men themselves.
men mistakenly judge other prodigal sons of God into the LOF judgement prepared for the devil and his....
the same judgement they judged[burn the sons of Israel in the fire] is the same judgement they receive........the tormentors of
man....expirience torment[did you come to torment us before the appointed time?"]
For I will not always find fault,for then the very spirit[love] would fail..........nothing quenches the spirit/kills love quicker
then constant faultfinding[love covers a multitude of sins/keeps no record of the offense...]..Accusor thrown out of heaven.
...and so we receive the kingdom of the love of His son..whose better covenant states He is not counting our trespasses against us...
and we must forgive also..all those who have trespassed against us[reconciliation] a repentant heart that does not want to be
adversarial unto the Father..that desires to make/accept peace..with God and all men..and grow in love/relationship
of what benefit is it unto a man to gain the whole world but lose his soul[bow down and do one act of worship unto me...and I will
give you all the kingdoms of the earth,for they are mine[man of sin/son of perdition revealed] to give. satan entered Judas..and
made a son of perdition..satan entered the serpent and become the original serpent..satan entered the disobedient angels in the heavens
and become a dragon in the heavens.[transforming themselves as angels of light to decieve].satan entered the beasts..and the
liar/mankiller nature come forth. satan entered man..and he become the sinning man[know evil=joined as one with evil] abomination
in the temple[man's body] For God made man for His spirit to dwell in
NOW my kingdom is not from this source..or otherwise my men would have fought that I not be delivered unto you.
the 'Prince' of this world is judged...that his works are wicked..but ye are no part of the world..if ye were the world would love you
satan gained the whole world[decieved the entire inhabited earth] but has lost his soul...the soul that is sinning will die.
what will a man give in exchange for his soul?
for the word of God is living and active. Sharper than any double edged sword, IT PENETRATES TO DIVIDING SOUL AND SPIRIT
JOINTS AND MARROW; IT JUDGES THE THOUGHTS AND ATTITUDES OF THE HEART
A frightening thought and a topic i deal with every day "teaching" christian universalism on the internet!
Yes, God CAN simply ANNIALATE you!
Snap! There it's done! No problem for the CREATOR of souls!
(http://www.massagemag.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2011_08_myofascialhandsnap0811.jpg)
But this is NOT what God WANTS!
"I am GOD, there is no other, I am GOD, and there is NO ONE LIKE ME; I reveal the end from the beginning, from ANCIENT TIMES I reveal what is to be: I say, "My PURPOSE shall take effect, I will ACCOMPLISH all that I PLEASE!"
Isaiah 46:9-10
Oh but he has to because "free will"
WHERE again that i hear that "free will" thing in either Hebrew or Greek...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U9c_KttvQPU
Hmm...
Lets see where the book of revelation ends.
"Behold, I come quickly. My reward is with me, to repay to each man according to his work. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End. Blessed are those who do his commandments,† that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter in by the gates into the city. OUTSIDE ARE THE dogs, the sorcerers, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices falsehood. I, JESUS have sent my angel to testify these things to you for the assemblies. I am the root and the offspring of David; the Bright and Morning Star." "
Book of Revelation chapter 22 verses 12-16
You know, when the LORD JESUS says so, we can take HIM for hes WORD!
"Oh there just there waiting to be ahnialated."
The hebrew word for soul is Nefesh Meaning "animated object"
http://judaism.stackexchange.com/questions/8921/nefesh-neshama-and-ruach-as-words-for-soul
In Hebrew culture the DEAD SLEEP waiting for the day of JUDGMENT!
"At that time Michael will stand up, the great prince who stands for the children of your people; and there will be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time. At that time your people will be delivered, everyone who is found written in the book. Many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth will AWAKE, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting CONTEMPT. Those who are wise will shine as the brightness of the expanse. Those who turn many to righteousness will shine as the stars forever and ever. But you, Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end. Many will run back and forth, and knowledge will be increased."
Book of Daniel chapter 12 verses 1-4
In Hebrew culture you are either DEAD & ALIVE!
No "in betweens" here! You want that..go to Egypt and there Greek copycat "philosophers"
http://discoveringegypt.com/ancient-egyptian-gods-and-goddesses
If there in the lake of fire that means they are still alive...undergoing Kolasis Aionios = Age lasting CORRECTION!
Or basanizo = HORRIBLY PAINFUL purification!
http://www.biblestudytools.com/lexicons/greek/kjv/basanizo.html
Thats what the BIBLE says! But hey...who actually needs that badly translated peace of toilet paper!? And who needs Jesus anyway? We have our ancient pagan belief system from Sumer to Egypt and all the way to Rome + Greek...and OFCOURSE the Scandinavian-Germanic HELL!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=00_o1arKeIA
Who needs the bible? Just keep those people coming to church and most of all...keep the MONEY coming IN!
(http://www.moneywisepastor.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/Love-of-Money-pic.jpg)
When MONEY talks, bullcrap walks :mock:
I want to thank you for bringing this out Seth and Tom and Sheila
I just assumed by the many articles written that Gehenna was both ''places '' of torment
What ever Jesus is meaning by His testimony in Matthew 10 it is about , How man has twisted the scriptures again and again over the ignorance of NOT Knowing what pleases the true and Living God for centuries .
Being the slaughter of the innocent to appease an angry god who needs sacrifice and blood to satisfy him for something you have errored and trespassed in to save yourself at the innocents expense , instead of not sinning against GOD in the first place .
Exposing the murder in men's hearts and in this tempting GOD and making Him angry , when if you would just do whats right in the first place there would be no need sacrifice for sin , missing the mark and being in error .........
Jesus come to prove this over and over again in His testimony .He is the love manifested by God and the perfect sacrifice to prove that murder and lying has never pleased Him
the SPIRIT OF TRUTH is to teach us not to lie to God and the Lord Jesus Christ shows us loving forgiveness for wrong doing is the way that leads to life
We all have an evil nature in us that we must deal with ourselves , we have to strive against sin , error and missing the mark to the shedding of our own blood , not the blood of others Hebrews 12 speaks of this very thing
shedding of your own blood striving against sin , not the blood of others
But go on shedding the blood of bulls and goats/carnal animal natures it says in Hebrews , but a Lambs blood is required because this is the same Blood of Jesus Christ as it is written in the scriptures , sons of God and you are the sheep to slaughter all the day long .. this is love covering the multitude of sins , missing the mark and error , trespass against GOD, just taking the wrong and we can not ever do this having a carnal nature it opposes Gods Spirit , it is the Spirit of Christ in you that can accept it and prove us , it really is taking up our cross and following Jesus .
4You have not yet resisted to the point of shedding blood in your striving against sin;
5and you have forgotten the exhortation which is addressed to you as sons,
"MY SON, DO NOT REGARD LIGHTLY THE DISCIPLINE OF THE LORD, NOR FAINT WHEN YOU ARE REPROVED BY HIM;...
Philippians 2:8
And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to death-- even death on a cross!
Hebrews 10:32
Remember those earlier days after you had received the light, when you endured in a great conflict full of suffering.
Hebrews 10:33
Sometimes you were publicly exposed to insult and persecution; at other times you stood side by side with those who were so treated.
Hebrews 13:13
Let us, then, go to him outside the camp, bearing the disgrace he bore.
These scriptures show my own lack in many times I did not obey :sigh:
and other times learning to strive against sin , error and trespass as a sinner saved by grace and not increase the sin and error make it worse instead of better by forgiving and asking the Lord in secret please increase so i will decrease in needing justice and showing mercy undeserving , just as I got mercy undeserving ,, and loving one another as you have loved us all .
Jesus maybe was proving that even after all this time of God striving with mankind and being patient with us and loving , they still do not choose to do what is right in his sight
What else could he have done that He already has already done for us ?
He wiped them all out with the water of His anger , all flesh and started over again with a few 8 and now , here we are again ...
When you look at the world who was given everything by God , even perfection of His own Son , this will be much worse according to the scriptures
in judgment than Sodom and Gomorrah IF NOT FOR JESUS CHRIST being the righteous judge and loving us so very much
What you said was "Folks are catching on to the fact that gehenna was not a garbage dump" as if it is a "fact," but it's not a "fact" because there is no way to really verify that just like there is no way to really verify that it was a "garbage dump." It may be somebody's idea that it wasn't, but it's not a "fact." I don't see the point in debating about "Gehenna" being a so called "garbage dump" anyway. What I think happened in "Gehenna" in the past is what I've read from various sources, but I wasn't there. What I believe Christ was talking about when he spoke of "Gehenna," not "hell" as the King James tried to deceive people into thinking, was that the Jews would be executed for certain crimes and have their corpses burned in "Gehenna" which I think must have been considered to be a dishonorable death because they wouldn't be getting a proper burial, and I also think they may have been familiar with the practice after having seen or heard about it being done before whether it happened in the time of Christ or not. As I said before, all of this, just as with all history, should be taken with a grain of salt because, even if it's been documented, it is still open to speculation and interpretation. I've read from various sources that not only were the corpses of executed criminals burned in "Gehenna," but also the carcasses of dead sacrificial animals. Whether the city "garbage" of Jerusalem was burned along with the dead bodies is something I don't think can be proven or disproved, but I don't see the point in making a big deal about it. If dead bodies were "dumped" there to be burned, it could still be said to be a "dump," but who cares? What's the point of making a big deal about "Gehenna" not being a "garbage dump" anyway? I think some people might just prefer that "Gehenna" be considered as a figurative interpretation of "hell" rather than a literal place where the dead bodies of executed criminals will be burned in the next eon instead of the immortal souls of all unbelievers being tortured in fire forever there, but, as usual, I prefer to believe the literal interpretation, and I think that's what Christ was warning about. I think it's a waste of time to debate whether the city "garbage" of Jerusalem was burned along with the dead bodies. So, if you want to debate that with somebody, find somebody else because I say who cares?
Tom you seem to think I brought it up to debate your literal view. Which is maybe why you keep bringing up my "fact" statement even though I clarified.
The OP said "Why does it use the word Gehenna, the garbagedump?"
And my point to Abigail, not you, was that there seems to be no evidence that it was used by Christ for that reason. I believe it was used as a scriptural reference to Israel's history with idolatry and it's consequences (resulting in the murder of their children). My statements were for the OP not to debate you.
Quote from: Seth on May 08, 2015, 05:46:05 PM
Tom you seem to think I brought it up to debate your literal view. Which is maybe why you keep bringing up my "fact" statement even though I clarified.
The OP said "Why does it use the word Gehenna, the garbagedump?"
And my point to Abigail, not you, was that there seems to be no evidence that it was used by Christ for that reason. I believe it was used as a scriptural reference to Israel's history with idolatry and it's consequences (resulting in the murder of their children). My statements were for the OP not to debate you.
:thumbsup:
I understand what you're saying, and I realized that. I was just saying that I don't think it's a "fact" either way. I've read about a lot of history being bogus info. Who is to know for sure what happened way back then? I think the important thing is that scripture seems to be saying that Christ was talking about corpses being burned in "Gehenna" not immortal souls being tortured in fire forever as orthodox doctrine wants us to believe.
Yes I agree about how there's also no evidence that he used gehenna as a symbol of another place called hell. As an ETer, I took that for granted too.
I see a difference between fact and established fact. It could be a fact that aliens exist. But it's not an established fact though, which we both agree on. My revised way of saying it hopefully explained better what I meant. It COULD be a fact that gehenna was a garbage dump and we just don't know. Maybe evidence will surface about that.
My concern is that there is alot of UR literature which refers to the garbage dump then proceeds to develop interpretation on THAT basis. If ETers rightly challenge that such UR interpretations are based on unestablished facts, it could cast a shadow over the abundance of scriptural arguments UR does have.
I understand, brother. I think we have to exercise some faith when dealing with all of history. We get information from a lot of sources about a lot of stuff, and at some point we have to decide what we think makes the most sense and believe that. I try to keep an open mind willing to change about anything that may even be sacred if I get some new information that seems like it is truth. I had a hard time accepting universal reconciliation when I first mysteriously became aware of it by getting bounced from a die hard King James site to one about it, but I didn't immediately dismiss it. I spent a lot of time reading as much information as I could about it online until I got so much evidence supported by an accurate translation of scripture that it is the truth that I just had to believe it. It's hard to let go of tradition, but we're better off if we go with the truth regardless of where it leads us. We catch a lot of heat about universal reconciliation especially from fellow believers, but it's worth it to get the truth out there that has been so suppressed for so long. I mean they actually used to kill folks for believing it. So we don't have such a hard time these days, but the grip of orthodox theology is tight around the throats of folks in church threatening them with torture in fire forever. It is sad, but true. I think we just need to continue to share the truth of scripture with the world, and God will convince those who have been chosen. I think it's crazy how we sometimes get to going after each other in this battle instead of working together against the enemy because what we disagree on sometimes isn't so important. Everybody believes what they do because of their own life experiences. I don't think any of us are authorities. We're all just fellow students of the word of God which is the true authority. Doctrine can make you crazy if you let it, but, even though I'm half demented these days, I still have my sense of humor. So I don't sweat the small stuff. I prefer to just keep on grinning. So I'm not worried about if "Gehenna" should be called the old "garbage dump" of Jerusalem or not. I just think it was probably used to burn some live kids unfortunately and then some dead bodies a long time ago and probably will be used to burn some more dead bodies in the future, but I may be wrong because some of the information I've gotten may not be legit. I'm not going to get tense about it either way. So peace, bro.
Peace :friendstu:
BTW I have trouble sleeping too. It's frustrating.
Interesting discussion on the word Gehenna. Been around this one more than once. And I am sure it will come up again. My take on it is this.
Gehenna - this word refers to a garbage dump which burned just outside of Jerusalem and was referred to by Christ to symbolically describe the need to purge out sin and have it burned out of a Christian, just as wood, hay, and stubble is burned. Yes it was a literal garbage dump described in the OT. Christ used it in a figurative sense. If you read that He said things like "pluck out your eye" He obviously did not mean this literally. Christ spoke in parables as we know.
Jabcat had a real good comments on Gehenna some time ago on this forum, but I can not find it.
Also attached is a short analysis of all the places the word Gehenna is used in scripture. Only Christ and James used the word.
:Peace2:
[attachment deleted by admin]
Quote from: joeteekay on May 08, 2015, 07:20:58 PM
Interesting discussion on the word Gehenna. Been around this one more than once. And I am sure it will come up again. My take on it is this.
Gehenna - this word refers to a garbage dump which burned just outside of Jerusalem and was referred to by Christ to symbolically describe the need to purge out sin and have it burned out of a Christian, just as wood, hay, and stubble is burned. Yes it was a literal garbage dump described in the OT. Christ used it in a figurative sense. If you read that He said things like "pluck out your eye" He obviously did not mean this literally. Christ spoke in parables as we know.
Jabcat had a real good comments on Gehenna some time ago on this forum, but I can not find it.
Also attached is a short analysis of all the places the word Gehenna is used in scripture. Only Christ and James used the word.
:Peace2:
"Jabcat had a real good comments on Gehenna some time ago on this forum, but I can not find it."
Yeah been looking for that to and asked Jabcat, but he said he came up blank. I know I seen it. :Peace2:
Quote from: joeteekayGehenna - this word refers to a garbage dump which burned just outside of Jerusalem
Joeteekay, why do you believe it was a garbage dump? It's become a tradition in UR discussion, thought and literature that it was a garbage dump where also criminals were burned. I never questioned that before, but now I do because I want to see the evidence.
Jeremiah 7;31-34 speaks of Topeth[Hinnon and God's feelings about it....prophesied dead bodies fill it/birds eat their flesh...
the valley of slaughter...from now on I will refer to it as Valley of slaughter. sounds like valley of dry bones.....they
WILL NOT BE GATHERED UP OR BURIED>>BUT WILL BE LIKE REFUSE LYING ON THE GROUND.....
there you go..appears this understanding of Gehenna/Topeth/Valley of Hinnon/Slaughter is tied in with this prophetic word
of God through Jeremiah.
Quote from: Seth on May 08, 2015, 07:46:27 PM
Quote from: joeteekayGehenna - this word refers to a garbage dump which burned just outside of Jerusalem
Joeteekay, why do you believe it was a garbage dump? It's become a tradition in UR discussion, thought and literature that it was a garbage dump where also criminals were burned. I never questioned that before, but now I do because I want to see the evidence.
Doing more of a study on this since your question.
One source "Bible Hub" gives this:
Hinnom
(lamentation), Valley of, otherwise called "the valley of the son" or "children of Hinnom," a deep and narrow ravine, with steep, rocky sides, to the south and west of Jerusalem, separating Mount Zion to the north from the "hill of evil counsel," and the sloping rocky plateau of the "plain of Rephaim" to the south. The earliest mention of the valley of Hinnom is in (Joshua 15:8; 18:16) where the boundary line between the tribes of Judah and Benjamin is described as passing along the bed of the ravine. On the southern brow, overlooking the valley at its eastern extremity Solomon erected high places for Molech, (1 Kings 11:7) whose horrid rites were revived from time to time in the same vicinity the later idolatrous kings. Ahaz and Manasseh made their children "pass through the fire" in this valley, (2 Kings 16:3; 2 Chronicles 28:3; 33:6) and the fiendish custom of infant sacrifice to the fire-gods seems to have been kept up in Tophet, which was another name for this place. To put an end to these abominations the place was polluted by Josiah, who renders it ceremonially unclean by spreading over it human bones and other corruptions, (2 Kings 23:10,13,14; 2 Chronicles 34:4,5) from which time it appears to have become the common cesspool of the city, into which sewage was conducted, to be carried off by the waters of the Kidron. From its ceremonial defilement, and from the detested and abominable fire of Molech, if not from the supposed ever-burning funeral piles, the later Jews applied the name of this valley --Ge Hinnom, Gehenna (land of Hinnom)--to denote the place of eternal torment. In this sense the word is used by our Lord. (Matthew 5:29; 10:28; 23:15; Mark 9:43; Luke 12:5)
Quotethe common cesspool of the city, into which sewage was conducted, to be carried off by the waters of the Kidron.
This is the part I am wondering about. There's no doubt an atrocity occurred there, which is what I believe Jesus is using as a symbol. But the notion that the city was using it as a dumping ground and burning the bodies of dead criminals, particularly during the time of Christ's ministry, there seems to be no Biblical evidence or archeological evidence for that.
I suspect that "garbage dump" is just a cultural [big word here I had to look up] euphemism. Meaning it is easier to use than explain perhaps the history of Molech and the valleys history. My :2c:
Even if no food refuse or sewage from Jerusalem was discarded in "Gehenna" in the past, dead bodies of executed criminals and sacrificial animals being dumped there and burned means that "Gehenna" was a "garbage dump" if that really happened there because "garbage," "trash," or "refuse" is anything that's disposed of because it's seen as useless. That's why I think it was considered to be so dishonorable by the Jews to have their dead bodies thrown into the ravine of Hinnom, "Gehenna," to be burned. So maybe the "evidence" you seek is right there in scripture, but you need to decide if you believe it or not. Sometimes we can't see the forest for the trees. Who knows if it happened in the past or will in the future? But Christ seemed to be saying it will in scripture, and I think he was referring to Isaiah's prophecy when he did. I guess we just have to decide if we believe scripture is "evidence" or not for "Gehenna" being the "garbage dump" for dead bodies to be burned, at least in the future even if not in the past, just as we have to decide if scripture is "evidence" or not for the resurrection of Jesus Christ, but that's only if you have a literal interpretation of "Gehenna." I personally don't care if "Gehenna" was used as a "garbage dump" for the burning of dead bodies in the past, even though that's what I've read, but I think it will be in the future because I think that is what Christ was talking about.
"And it will come to be, as often as the new moon comes in its monthly time, And as often as the sabbath comes in its sabbath cycle, All flesh shall come to worship before Me, says Yahweh. And they will go forth and see the corpses of the mortals who transgressed against Me, For their worm shall not die, And their fire shall not be quenched, And they will become a repulsion to all flesh." (Isaiah 66:23,24)
Quote from: TomEven if no food refuse or sewage from Jerusalem was discarded in "Gehenna" in the past, dead bodies of executed criminals and sacrificial animals being dumped there and burned means that "Gehenna" was a "garbage dump" if that really happened there because "garbage," "trash," or "refuse" is anything that's disposed of because it's seen as useless. That's why I think it was considered to be so dishonorable by the Jews to have their dead bodies thrown into the ravine of Hinnom, "Gehenna," to be burned.
As far as the scripture is concerned, Josiah desecrated Topheth making it ceremoniously unclean at one time in the past during that event. But as far as it becoming a place for the continual burning of trash and bodies of executed criminals, there seems to be no evidence of that. At the time Jesus spoke, it could have been a perfectly clean, beautiful area of grass and trees, and that Jesus was referring to it as a matter of scriptural history in his ministry.
Quote from: TomSo maybe the "evidence" you seek is right there in scripture, but you need to decide if you believe it or not. Sometimes we can't see the forest for the trees. Who knows if it happened in the past or will in the future?
There's evidence of a one time atrocity concerning the murder of children in fire to the gods which was desecrated by Josiah. There's no evidence of the continual burning place of dead criminals or refuse beyond that, that I know of.
Quote from: TomBut Christ seemed to be saying it will in scripture, and I think he was referring to Isaiah's prophecy when he did. I guess we just have to decide if we believe scripture is "evidence" or not for "Gehenna" being the "garbage dump" for dead bodies to be burned, at least in the future even if not in the past, just as we have to decide if scripture is "evidence" or not for the resurrection of Jesus Christ, but that's only if you have a literal interpretation of "Gehenna." I personally don't care if "Gehenna" was used as a "garbage dump" for the burning of dead bodies in the past, even though that's what I've read, but I think it will be in the future because I think that is what Christ is talking about.
"And it will come to be, as often as the new moon comes in its monthly time, And as often as the sabbath comes in its sabbath cycle, All flesh shall come to worship before Me, says Yahweh. And they will go forth and see the corpses of the mortals who transgressed against Me, For their worm shall not die, And their fire shall not be quenched, And they will become a repulsion to all flesh." (Isaiah 66:23 & 24)
That becomes a matter of interpretation because when you read the latter half of Isaiah, including chapter 66, there are evidences that this prophecy is veiled language concerning New Jerusalem, which itself is referred to as a bride of Christ. There is a lot of reason to interpret that chapter figuratively rather than literally. But, again that's not the issue for me. The issue for me is why did Christ use Gehenna as a metaphor.
Jesus says to his disciples to cut out their eyes and throw it into Gehenna. Why? What will happen if we don't? Our whole body is next...
This reminds me of what actually happened in Gehenna in the past: They worshipped Ba'al (one sin...) and then caused their children to pass into the fire (...leading to another sin).
James talks about this too. The tongue is a small fire that can cause a forest fire. It is like a small rudder that steers a larger ship. Jesus is saying, spiritually get rid of the parts that are a threat to the whole, that can lead one into a descent into such atrocities as burning children, or murdering your brother, or cheating on your wife etc. One sin leading to another until it consumes you. That is what I think the warning of Gehenna is all about..
Quote from: Seth on May 08, 2015, 09:14:04 PM
Jesus says to his disciples to cut out their eyes and throw it into Gehenna. Why? What will happen if we don't? Our whole body is next...
This reminds me of what actually happened in Gehenna in the past: They worshipped Ba'al (one sin...) and then caused their children to pass into the fire (...leading to another sin).
James talks about this too. The tongue is a small fire that can cause a forest fire. It is like a small rudder that steers a larger ship. Jesus is saying, spiritually get rid of the parts that are a threat to the whole, that can lead one into a descent into such atrocities as burning children, or murdering your brother, or cheating on your wife etc. One sin leading to another until it consumes you. That is what I think the warning of Gehenna is all about..
:thumbsup:
Quote from: Seth on May 08, 2015, 08:37:11 PM
Quotethe common cesspool of the city, into which sewage was conducted, to be carried off by the waters of the Kidron.
This is the part I am wondering about. There's no doubt an atrocity occurred there, which is what I believe Jesus is using as a symbol. But the notion that the city was using it as a dumping ground and burning the bodies of dead criminals, particularly during the time of Christ's ministry, there seems to be no Biblical evidence or archeological evidence for that.
I love that you look things up to Joeteekay and Sharing Seth and Tom , everyone
I had looked these up long ago and this is some refresher course
God bless :icon_flower:
could be the outer darkness outside the City , Seth ?
http://www.abarim-publications.com/Meaning/Kidron.html#.VUz-IPlViko
Very interesting Rose :thumbsup:
OK, I guess we're back in this thread now, and I still say I don't think you should assume that Christ used "Gehenna" as a "metaphor" even though you say "that's not the issue for me" because I happen to believe he was literally speaking of "Gehenna." And I still don't care if what I think will happen in the future happened in the past. I understand that some of the language used by Christ referring to "Gehenna" was not intended to be interpreted literally like plucking out the eye and cutting off the hand, but I still think he was talking about dead bodies actually being burned there or what would be the point?
I also disagree with the garbage dump understanding. I personally link it with Isaiah 66:24; Jeremiah 7:32, 33; 19:7,8. Josephus also gives it an historical context as well (Jos. War 5.12.3). That this was a literal warning by Yeshua for those who would experience it when the Temple was destroyed.
Ronen
I think folks were always getting confused about what Jesus was saying because he often used figurative language, but that doesn't mean everything he said was figurative. I try to interpret everything literally unless it seems obvious that it can't be because I think that's how you should read all literature whether it's scripture or not. Obviously this is a continuous debate among those who read scripture, and I doubt it will end until we all know the full truth.
Is this what Jabcat was sharing a while back ?
http://www.godsplanforall.com/mistranslationstomeanhell
Quote from: TomOK, I guess we're back in this thread now, and I still say I don't think you should assume that Christ used "Gehenna" as a "metaphor" even though you say "that's not the issue for me" because I happen to believe he was literally speaking of "Gehenna." And I still don't care if what I think will happen in the future happened in the past. I understand that some of the language used by Christ referring to "Gehenna" was not intended to be interpreted literally like plucking out the eye and cutting off the hand, but I still think he was talking about dead bodies actually being burned there or what would be the point?
How we interpret literally or figuratively, I don't think is the point of the OP. The point is WHY did Jesus use the term Gehenna? Did he do it because of the present-day-garbage-dump theory or as a scriptural reference. I think it was the latter. That has no bearing on whether or not you interpret Gehenna literally. You could still interpret it literally without the reason for usage being the garbage dump, criminal burning thing...
Quote from: TomI think folks were always getting confused about what Jesus was saying because he often used figurative language, but that doesn't mean everything he said was figurative. I try to interpret everything literally unless it seems obvious that it can't be because I think that's how you should read all literature whether it's scripture or not. Obviously this is a continuous debate among those who read scripture, and I doubt it will end until we all know the full truth.
I think the reason it will continue is because there is no scriptural mandate to take either approach.
But I'm really not interested in worrying about if "Gehenna" was really used as "garbage dump" in the past to burn the corpses of executed criminals or whether, even if it was, that means it was a "garbage dump." I'm starting to get a kick out of this thread like it's a comedy routine from Monty Python's Flying Circus or something. I mean this thread is literally a "garbage dump," or maybe it's just figuratively a "garbage dump." I know it's starting to make me laugh whatever it is.
No disrespect, bro, but I'm just having a hard time staying serious about all this. Maybe it's my "eternal" virus messing with my mind or the medication or whatever, but I just don't care if "Gehenna" was a "garbage dump."
If you don't care you don't care. But you went off on a tangent defending your literal interpretation method when that was never the point in the first place.
A question to ask is, if you were living back then, and heard Yeshua say what he did about Gehenna, how would you have understood it? I believe those who knew their scripture would have had some of the passages in my previous post in mind.
Maybe. Although many people were clueless about what he was saying, to fulfill the prophecy that they would hear but not understand. It's possible their reaction was: "I dunno can you heal my foot?"
QuoteInteresting discussion on the word Gehenna. Been around this one more than once. And I am sure it will come up again. My take on it is this.
Gehenna - this word refers to a garbage dump which burned just outside of Jerusalem and was referred to by Christ to symbolically describe the need to purge out sin and have it burned out of a Christian, just as wood, hay, and stubble is burned. Yes it was a literal garbage dump described in the OT. Christ used it in a figurative sense. If you read that He said things like "pluck out your eye" He obviously did not mean this literally. Christ spoke in parables as we know.
Jabcat had a real good comments on Gehenna some time ago on this forum, but I can not find it.
I believe this is the one you were talking about Joeteekay ?
http://tentmaker.org/forum/discussions-on-universal-salvation/matthew-1015-confirms-different-degrees-of-punishment/msg175151/#msg175151
Quote from: Seth on May 08, 2015, 10:01:14 PM
Maybe. Although many people were clueless about what he was saying, to fulfill the prophecy that they would hear but not understand. It's possible their reaction was: "I dunno can you heal my foot?"
:laughing7:
the fact being though
They really were looking for a literal kingdom on earth With Jesus Christ /Messiah as King
Yeah maybe that's why they were so :dontknow: when he went to the cross instead.
I believe that the Spirit has a potency and an exquisite sparkle and vigor that takes a word and uses it to convey a pearl of great price that penetrates across the barrier of the physical senses, that a word on its own could never do.
"For the word of God is alive and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart" Heb.4:12
I personally read both in the literal and non-literal sense because I believe the Holy Spirit gives humanity what it needs.
"They are more precious than gold,
Than much pure gold;
They are sweeter than honey,
Than honey from the honeycomb" Psalms 18
"How sweet are your words to my taste,
Sweeter than honey to my mouth" Psalms 119
Spirit must contact with Spirit to convey Spirit.
Quote from: lastpost on May 08, 2015, 10:31:07 PM
I believe that the Spirit has a potency and an exquisite sparkle and vigor that takes a word and uses it to convey a pearl of great price that penetrates across the barrier of the physical senses, that a word on its own could never do.
"For the word of God is alive and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart" Heb.4:12
I personally read both in the literal and non-literal sense because I believe the Holy Spirit gives humanity what it needs.
"They are more precious than gold,
Than much pure gold;
They are sweeter than honey,
Than honey from the honeycomb" Psalms 18
"How sweet are your words to my taste,
Sweeter than honey to my mouth" Psalms 119
Spirit must contact with Spirit to convey Spirit.
:angel5:
They understood when the Lord breathed on them to receive the HOLY SPIRIT in power
Wonderful witness to the glory of God :HeartThrob:
:thumbsup: Ronen...my reasoning,too. I thought..what did the Romans do with all the dead bodies when they leveled Jerusalem...
not enough room to bury...heap them up in the ravine?
Quote from: rosered on May 08, 2015, 10:12:36 PM
QuoteInteresting discussion on the word Gehenna. Been around this one more than once. And I am sure it will come up again. My take on it is this.
Gehenna - this word refers to a garbage dump which burned just outside of Jerusalem and was referred to by Christ to symbolically describe the need to purge out sin and have it burned out of a Christian, just as wood, hay, and stubble is burned. Yes it was a literal garbage dump described in the OT. Christ used it in a figurative sense. If you read that He said things like "pluck out your eye" He obviously did not mean this literally. Christ spoke in parables as we know.
Jabcat had a real good comments on Gehenna some time ago on this forum, but I can not find it.
I believe this is the one you were talking about Joeteekay ?
http://tentmaker.org/forum/discussions-on-universal-salvation/matthew-1015-confirms-different-degrees-of-punishment/msg175151/#msg175151
No that is not it. I found the one I was referring to and it was by Seth. Sorry, I thought initially it was James. :sigh:
http://tentmaker.org/forum/bible-threatenings-explained/a-comparison-of-james-and-jesus-concerning-gehenna/msg173598/#msg173598
Reading your comments, I tend to think Jesus did not mean to be literally thrown on a garbagedump (whether Gehenna was one or not), but was talking about something more serious. I feel probably like most Israelites did... usually I have no clue what the Lord Jesus is talking about...It seems He just suddenly starts talking about Gehenna. I agree the most logical thing for the Jews to think on when He used the statement is the role of Gehenna in the past and in prophecies.
What I do not understand very well:
- what does destroying the soul actually mean?
- the scripture speaks about being thrown into Gehenna AFTER having died - that sounds like something happening in the 'afterlife'. I'd like to know how you view this Seth, in relation to judgment and sin.
QuoteWhat I do not understand very well:
- what does destroying the soul actually mean?
The word "destroy" is what annihilationsts teach about eradication or permanently wiping out the "soul."
The word "destroy" is translated from the word "apollumi" which is a word often translated as "lost." Examples include the parable of the lost (appolumi) son, the lost (appolumi) coin, and the parable of the the lost (appolumi) coin.
The prodigal son was said by his father to have been "lost" (appolumi) and then found. I believe that James' warning about the fire of the fiery tongue spreading to the rest of the body applies in that sense of becoming lost by being led away through sin.
Quote- the scripture speaks about being thrown into Gehenna AFTER having died - that sounds like something happening in the 'afterlife'. I'd like to know how you view this Seth, in relation to judgment and sin.
I do believe that it is a reference to judgment after death and resurrection, and I believe that the judgment will entail metaphysical death (meaning death in sin) for the purpose of teaching the same lesson learned by the prodigal son about sin and how pleasure in sin leads to destruction, then ultimately repentance. That is how I believe God will use "strong delusion" for those who practiced deception to believe a lie and be judged.
I have a paper that includes more detail about it: http://mercifultruth.com/links-savedbygrace.html and also the comment that joeteekay linked.
Quote from: sheila on May 08, 2015, 10:45:25 PM
:thumbsup: Ronen...my reasoning,too. I thought..what did the Romans do with all the dead bodies when they leveled Jerusalem...
not enough room to bury...heap them up in the ravine?
Exactly. Here is the entire quote. Note the tone that Josephus writes with:
3. So all hope of escaping was now cut off from the Jews, together with their liberty of going out of the city. Then did the famine widen its progress, and devoured the people by whole houses and families; the upper rooms were full of women and children that were dying by famine, and the lanes of the city were full of the dead bodies of the aged; the children also and the young men wandered about the market-places like shadows, all swelled with the famine, and fell down dead, wheresoever their misery seized them. As for burying them, those that were sick themselves were not able to do it; and those that were hearty and well were deterred from doing it by the great multitude of those dead bodies, and by the uncertainty there was how soon they should die themselves; for many died as they were burying others, and many went to their coffins before that fatal hour was come. Nor was there any lamentations made under these calamities, nor were heard any mournful complaints; but the famine confounded all natural passions; for those who were just going to die looked upon those that were gone to rest before them with dry eyes and open mouths. A deep silence also, and a kind of deadly night, had seized upon the city; while yet the robbers were still more terrible than these miseries were themselves; for they brake open those houses which were no other than graves of dead bodies, and plundered them of what they had; and carrying off the coverings of their bodies, went out laughing, and tried the points of their swords in their dead bodies; and, in order to prove what metal they were made of they thrust some of those through that still lay alive upon the ground; but for those that entreated them to lend them their right hand and their sword to despatch them, they were too proud to grant their requests, and left them to be consumed by the famine. Now every one of these died with their eyes fixed upon the temple, and left the seditious alive behind them. Now the seditious at first gave orders that the dead should be buried out of the public treasury, as not enduring the stench of their dead bodies. But afterwards, when they could not do that, they had them cast down from the walls into the valleys beneath.
This idea of being disposed of outside of Jerusalem was a huge thing for the Hebrew people, and, Elohim himself. Notice his own words:
18 On account of this, thus says the LORD against Jehoiakim son of Josiah king of Judah, Woe against this man. In no way should they lament him, saying, O brother. Nor shall they weep over him, saying, Alas, O lord. 19 As the burial of a donkey he shall be buried; being scraped away he shall be tossed beyond the gate of Jerusalem.
I think those who will be executed and have their corpses burned in "Gehenna" will not only have their bodies destroyed, but they will lose the desire of their souls by missing life in the Millennium in the kingdom of the heavens in Israel which is the hope of all the Jewish people.
Quote from: gregoryfl on May 08, 2015, 11:37:13 PM
Quote from: sheila on May 08, 2015, 10:45:25 PM
:thumbsup: Ronen...my reasoning,too. I thought..what did the Romans do with all the dead bodies when they leveled Jerusalem...
not enough room to bury...heap them up in the ravine?
Exactly. Here is the entire quote. Note the tone that Josephus writes with:
3. So all hope of escaping was now cut off from the Jews, together with their liberty of going out of the city. Then did the famine widen its progress, and devoured the people by whole houses and families; the upper rooms were full of women and children that were dying by famine, and the lanes of the city were full of the dead bodies of the aged; the children also and the young men wandered about the market-places like shadows, all swelled with the famine, and fell down dead, wheresoever their misery seized them. As for burying them, those that were sick themselves were not able to do it; and those that were hearty and well were deterred from doing it by the great multitude of those dead bodies, and by the uncertainty there was how soon they should die themselves; for many died as they were burying others, and many went to their coffins before that fatal hour was come. Nor was there any lamentations made under these calamities, nor were heard any mournful complaints; but the famine confounded all natural passions; for those who were just going to die looked upon those that were gone to rest before them with dry eyes and open mouths. A deep silence also, and a kind of deadly night, had seized upon the city; while yet the robbers were still more terrible than these miseries were themselves; for they brake open those houses which were no other than graves of dead bodies, and plundered them of what they had; and carrying off the coverings of their bodies, went out laughing, and tried the points of their swords in their dead bodies; and, in order to prove what metal they were made of they thrust some of those through that still lay alive upon the ground; but for those that entreated them to lend them their right hand and their sword to despatch them, they were too proud to grant their requests, and left them to be consumed by the famine. Now every one of these died with their eyes fixed upon the temple, and left the seditious alive behind them. Now the seditious at first gave orders that the dead should be buried out of the public treasury, as not enduring the stench of their dead bodies. But afterwards, when they could not do that, they had them cast down from the walls into the valleys beneath.
Notice that it was AFTER they died, that they were thrown into the valley (Hinnom).
very sobering...they failed to recognize His visitation[in His son] who would have saved them from this horrible end.
I believe this scenario is going to come upon the whole world as the end of this age approaches..
I believe a judgment had already occurred before 70AD.
Romans 11
11 I ask then: Did God reject his people? By no means! I am an Israelite myself, a descendant of Abraham, from the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God did not reject his people, whom he foreknew.Don't you know what Scripture says in the passage about Elijah—how he appealed to God against Israel: 3 "Lord, they have killed your prophets and torn down your altars; I am the only one left, and they are trying to kill me"[a]? 4 And what was God's answer to him? "I have reserved for myself seven thousand who have not bowed the knee to Baal."5 So too, at the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace.
At the present time (when he wrote that) indeed there was a judgment executed upon Israel, from which a foreknown remnant (including Paul) was saved from:
Romans 11
7 What then? What the people of Israel sought so earnestly they did not obtain. The elect among them did, but the others were hardened, 8 as it is written: "God gave them a spirit of stupor, eyes that could not see and ears that could not hear, to this very day."[c]
They were already cut off of the branch years before 70AD occurred through a spirit of stupor given to them by God. Being cut off by God like a branch is definitely reason to fear him rather than let pride lead us and I think the same will occur for many Christians who perform atrocities in his name. As Paul said, if they get prideful, God can always cut them off too, and regraft the others, so take care. In that manner, I believe the bodies were already cast over the wall of a higher Jerusalem long before any physical war occurred which killed some but not others.
Of course, Yeshua brought the judgment of the world upon himself when he died. Neither judgment discounts the other. BOTH are referred to in the writings and true.
Quote from: sheila on May 08, 2015, 11:54:40 PM
very sobering...they failed to recognize His visitation[in His son] who would have saved them from this horrible end.
I believe this scenario is going to come upon the whole world as the end of this age approaches..
Indeed, Shimon urged as much when he said: "Be saved from this crooked generation."'
I can see that,Seth. also..since man's body bears the image of the corrupt[satan/adversary/tools] I believe God is showing
the end of the evil contrast tools. Since God teaches by good/evil contrast...these men's bodies served as an example of
the evil ones end [unclean use/tool of adversary] and those that Christ kept escaping[all men/bought redeemed/mercy.]
some men in their roles down here..must serve as vessels of wrath..that the scriptures be fulfilled...satan leads them in the way
of destruction..that their spirits be saved on the DAY of the LORD[Valley of dry bones vision]
Quote from: Seth on May 08, 2015, 11:28:41 PM
The word "destroy" is translated from the word "apollumi" which is a word often translated as "lost." Examples include the parable of the lost (appolumi) son, the lost (appolumi) coin, and the parable of the the lost (appolumi) coin.
The prodigal son was said by his father to have been "lost" (appolumi) and then found. I believe that James' warning about the fire of the fiery tongue spreading to the rest of the body applies in that sense of becoming lost by being led away through sin.
That is truly wonderful! :banana: I mean, being lost is very different from being destroyed!
Quote from: Seth on May 08, 2015, 11:28:41 PM
I do believe that it is a reference to judgment after death and resurrection, and I believe that the judgment will entail metaphysical death (meaning death in sin) for the purpose of teaching the same lesson learned by the prodigal son about sin and how pleasure in sin leads to destruction, then ultimately repentance. That is how I believe God will use "strong delusion" for those who practiced deception to believe a lie and be judged.
I have a paper that includes more detail about it: http://mercifultruth.com/links-savedbygrace.html and also the comment that joeteekay linked.
I've read it a few weeks ago and probably will read it a few more times to let it sink in. It makes so much sense to my spirit. Obviously I've read it to fast, in snippets, because I did not remind the part you wrote on Gehenna when I was questioned about these scriptures lately.
Just to clarify: you describe judgment mainly as suffering the consequences of sin, ultimately leading to repentance. So when someone dies 'in sin', and has not yet been converted, it is like he has not finished his course yet - he is still in the foreign country, or maybe on his way to the porks, so to say. Do you believe judgment after death is similar to judgment in this earthly life? Or maybe in a more intense way?
yes..and Judas whom satan entered..was pictured as the only one lost[son of perdition] in order that the scriptures be fulfilled.
Quote from: AbagailJust to clarify: you describe judgment mainly as suffering the consequences of sin, ultimately leading to repentance. So when someone dies 'in sin', and has not yet been converted, it is like he has not finished his course yet - he is still in the foreign country, or maybe on his way to the porks, so to say. Do you believe judgment after death is similar to judgment in this earthly life? Or maybe in a more intense way?
I believe that is the gyst of it. I believe that before repentance comes one has not passed from death to life, even if one may be literally alive. So, when the Bible says that death will be destroyed, it's talking about ALL kinds of death both physical and metaphysical.
It may be that someone who has never heard of Christ, like maybe a African bushman with no exposure to the gospel wakes up and fits the definition of being dead to God until he hears the words of the Gospel by the revealed sons of God and is saved from that kind of death (lack of knowing God), and that others who claim to know God but walked in evil will be cut off to go wayward as the prodigal son or the bulk of Israel when they were cut off. I don't think we can really know the particulars, but rather the general based on clues provided.
In that way I believe that judgment will occur on earth, not in a subterranean hell world of literal fire, but on earth where the judgments of God help man to learn righteousness.
Quote from: Seth on May 09, 2015, 12:18:08 AM
Quote from: AbagailJust to clarify: you describe judgment mainly as suffering the consequences of sin, ultimately leading to repentance. So when someone dies 'in sin', and has not yet been converted, it is like he has not finished his course yet - he is still in the foreign country, or maybe on his way to the porks, so to say. Do you believe judgment after death is similar to judgment in this earthly life? Or maybe in a more intense way?
I believe that is the gyst of it. I believe that before repentance comes one has not passed from death to life, even if one may be literally alive. So, when the Bible says that death will be destroyed, it's talking about ALL kinds of death both physical and metaphysical.
It may be that someone who has never heard of Christ, like maybe a African bushman with no exposure to the gospel wakes up and fits the definition of being dead to God until he hears the words of the Gospel by the revealed sons of God and is saved from that kind of death (lack of knowing God), and that others who claim to know God but walked in evil will be cut off to go wayward as the prodigal son or the bulk of Israel when they were cut off. I don't think we can really know the particulars, but rather the general based on clues provided.
In that way I believe that judgment will occur on earth, not in a subterranean hell world of literal fire, but on earth where the judgments of God help man to learn righteousness.
I believe the judgments of God take place both in life, reaping and sowing so to speak, and then also for the adamant adversaries and wicked, at the Great White Throne in the Day of God, and in the lake of fire, which is imo an experience of purification involving the light od God consuming darkness in the souls of the persistently rebellious and wicked. There are several different views on this. I don't think anyone here claims to completely understand certain things like this where little is written in the record- but all of us believe that whatever the judgments of God are, they end in the reconciliation of all, as "evry knee will bow, whether in heaven or on earth or under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father."
Thanks for your explanation Seth, and amen to your wise words, Eaglesway!
..the warning about Gehenna I sorta take like "it would be better to throw away your hand than offend one of these little ones than to rot in prison - as a more modern way of saying it.. (in context I believe this was the reference, offending an innocent).
I believe Jesus' saying "unless you repent you will die in your sins" to the pharisees, means they would rise also still in their sins, which i believe is the 2nd resurrection of Revelation chapter 20 of all who have not believed, some never having heard, many having never heard, that is.. I believe judgment day will be an age..kind of a short one as ages go(?) (500years) then at the end of that 'day' is when "those not believing will go to the LOF" - but after experiencing being resurrected and witnessing and living thru a long day of the review of all things.. all human history, etc.. who's not going to "believe" - besides being faced with the holy purity of God.. "every knee shall bow" "all will remember and turn to the LORD" .."it will be better for sodom and gomorrah on judgment day than for you cities who.." .."the queen of the south will rise up on judgment day against.. because one greater than solomon.."
Any really hard cases, who have hardened their heart so much by habitual grudge against God, and they cannot 'bend the knee' into the LOF for age-during, til thanksgiving and praise overflows.. "the fiery proving of your faith" 1 Peter 1?
but mostly I think it will be like it was for us, regret and repentance.. modeled after ancient Israel's Day of Atonement, Israel's annual judgement day when their sins were forgiven, and day of afflicting their souls/psyches.. if His 1s advent fulfilled the spring holy days, he was the passover lamb, the unleavened bread and the firstfruits, I believe the 3 major peaks of his long 2nd advent will fulfill the ancient fall holy days of trumpets, 10 days later, DOA, five days later, tabernacles.. God will now tabernacle with man on earth - rev 21:3.. (the ten days between trumpets and DOA representing the 1000 year millennium)
:gsmile:
Quote from: Abigail on May 07, 2015, 11:09:37 PM
Matthew 10:28 has already been discussed in earlier times, yet what is not fully clear to me yet:
It says 'rather be afraid of Him who can destroy both soul and body in Gehenna', yet I wonder whether 'Him' should be with a capital. Is this scripture speaking about God? In the Concordant a neutral word is used (though singular, where earlier in the verse the same word is used plural).
Furthermore, if this is about God, this would probably mean something like leaving people over to their sin and the consequences there of. Why does it use the word Gehenna, the garbagedump?
I would love to know your thoughts.
Actually the word in greek is ton, which is the accusative masculine singular.
Quote from: Lorenzo on September 21, 2015, 07:05:53 PM
Quote from: Abigail on May 07, 2015, 11:09:37 PM
Matthew 10:28 has already been discussed in earlier times, yet what is not fully clear to me yet:
It says 'rather be afraid of Him who can destroy both soul and body in Gehenna', yet I wonder whether 'Him' should be with a capital. Is this scripture speaking about God? In the Concordant a neutral word is used (though singular, where earlier in the verse the same word is used plural).
Furthermore, if this is about God, this would probably mean something like leaving people over to their sin and the consequences there of. Why does it use the word Gehenna, the garbagedump?
I would love to know your thoughts.
Actually the word in greek is ton, which is the accusative masculine singular.
You might want to apply that in somewhat clearer terms to the quote. :Peace2:
Quote from: eaglesway on September 22, 2015, 04:46:45 AM
Quote from: Lorenzo on September 21, 2015, 07:05:53 PM
Quote from: Abigail on May 07, 2015, 11:09:37 PM
Matthew 10:28 has already been discussed in earlier times, yet what is not fully clear to me yet:
It says 'rather be afraid of Him who can destroy both soul and body in Gehenna', yet I wonder whether 'Him' should be with a capital. Is this scripture speaking about God? In the Concordant a neutral word is used (though singular, where earlier in the verse the same word is used plural).
Furthermore, if this is about God, this would probably mean something like leaving people over to their sin and the consequences there of. Why does it use the word Gehenna, the garbagedump?
I would love to know your thoughts.
Actually the word in greek is ton, which is the accusative masculine singular.
You might want to apply that in somewhat clearer terms to the quote. :Peace2:
I meant that, since the word is not neutral, but masculine, and considering the whole context, it is quite sure that here Jesus is talking about GOD.