soul destroyed in Gehenna

[Tom]

But I'm really not interested in worrying about if "Gehenna" was really used as "garbage dump" in the past to burn the corpses of executed criminals or whether, even if it was, that means it was a "garbage dump." I'm starting to get a kick out of this thread like it's a comedy routine from Monty Python's Flying Circus or something. I mean this thread is literally a "garbage dump," or maybe it's just figuratively a "garbage dump." I know it's starting to make me laugh whatever it is.

[Tom]

No disrespect, bro, but I'm just having a hard time staying serious about all this. Maybe it's my "eternal" virus messing with my mind or the medication or whatever, but I just don't care if "Gehenna" was a "garbage dump."

[Seth]

If you don't care you don't care. But you went off on a tangent defending your literal interpretation method when that was never the point in the first place.

[gregoryfl]

A question to ask is, if you were living back then, and heard Yeshua say what he did about Gehenna, how would you have understood it? I believe those who knew their scripture would have had some of the passages in my previous post in mind.

[Seth]

Maybe. Although many people were clueless about what he was saying, to fulfill the prophecy that they would hear but not understand. It's possible their reaction was: "I dunno can you heal my foot?"

[rosered]

 

Interesting discussion on the word Gehenna. Been around this one more than once. And I am sure it will come up again. My take on it is this.

Gehenna - this word refers to a garbage dump which burned just outside of Jerusalem and was referred to by Christ to symbolically describe the need to purge out sin and have it burned out of a Christian, just as wood, hay, and stubble is burned. Yes it was a literal garbage dump described in the OT. Christ used it in a figurative sense. If you read that He said things like "pluck out your eye" He obviously did not mean this literally. Christ spoke in parables as we know.

Jabcat had a real good comments on Gehenna some time ago on this forum, but I can not find it.

  I believe this is the one you were talking about   Joeteekay ?


http://tentmaker.org/forum/discussions-on-universal-salvation/matthew-1015-confirms-different-degrees-of-punishment/msg175151/#msg175151

[rosered]

Maybe. Although many people were clueless about what he was saying, to fulfill the prophecy that they would hear but not understand. It's possible their reaction was: "I dunno can you heal my foot?"

  :laughing7:     


the fact being though 


They  really were looking for a literal   kingdom on earth     With Jesus Christ /Messiah  as King

[Seth]

Yeah maybe that's why they were so  :dontknow: when he went to the cross instead.

[lastpost]

I believe that the Spirit has a potency and an exquisite sparkle and vigor that takes a word and uses it to convey a pearl of great price that penetrates across the barrier of the physical senses, that a word on its own could never do.

"For the word of God is alive and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart" Heb.4:12

I personally read both in the literal and non-literal sense because I believe the Holy Spirit gives humanity what it needs.

"They are more precious than gold,
Than much pure gold;
They are sweeter than honey,
Than honey from the honeycomb" Psalms 18

"How sweet are your words to my taste,
Sweeter than honey to my mouth" Psalms 119

Spirit must contact with Spirit to convey Spirit.

[rosered]

I believe that the Spirit has a potency and an exquisite sparkle and vigor that takes a word and uses it to convey a pearl of great price that penetrates across the barrier of the physical senses, that a word on its own could never do.

"For the word of God is alive and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart" Heb.4:12

I personally read both in the literal and non-literal sense because I believe the Holy Spirit gives humanity what it needs.

"They are more precious than gold,
Than much pure gold;
They are sweeter than honey,
Than honey from the honeycomb" Psalms 18

"How sweet are your words to my taste,
Sweeter than honey to my mouth" Psalms 119

Spirit must contact with Spirit to convey Spirit.

:angel5:

   They   understood when the Lord  breathed on them  to receive the HOLY SPIRIT     in power

    Wonderful   witness to the glory of God  :HeartThrob:

[sheila]

 :thumbsup: Ronen...my reasoning,too. I thought..what did the Romans do with all the dead bodies when they leveled Jerusalem...

  not enough room to bury...heap them up in the ravine?

[joeteekay]

Interesting discussion on the word Gehenna. Been around this one more than once. And I am sure it will come up again. My take on it is this.

Gehenna - this word refers to a garbage dump which burned just outside of Jerusalem and was referred to by Christ to symbolically describe the need to purge out sin and have it burned out of a Christian, just as wood, hay, and stubble is burned. Yes it was a literal garbage dump described in the OT. Christ used it in a figurative sense. If you read that He said things like "pluck out your eye" He obviously did not mean this literally. Christ spoke in parables as we know.

Jabcat had a real good comments on Gehenna some time ago on this forum, but I can not find it.

  I believe this is the one you were talking about   Joeteekay ?


http://tentmaker.org/forum/discussions-on-universal-salvation/matthew-1015-confirms-different-degrees-of-punishment/msg175151/#msg175151

No that is not it. I found the one I was referring to and it was by Seth. Sorry, I thought initially it was James.  :sigh:

http://tentmaker.org/forum/bible-threatenings-explained/a-comparison-of-james-and-jesus-concerning-gehenna/msg173598/#msg173598

[Abigail]

Reading your comments, I tend to think Jesus did not mean to be literally thrown on a garbagedump (whether Gehenna was one or not), but was talking about something more serious. I feel probably like most Israelites did... usually I have no clue what the Lord Jesus is talking about...It seems He just suddenly starts talking about Gehenna. I agree the most logical thing for the Jews to think on when He used the statement is the role of Gehenna in the past and in prophecies.

What I do not understand very well:
- what does destroying the soul actually mean?
- the scripture speaks about being thrown into Gehenna AFTER having died - that sounds like something happening in the 'afterlife'. I'd like to know how you view this Seth, in relation to judgment and sin.

[Seth]

What I do not understand very well:
- what does destroying the soul actually mean?

The word "destroy" is what annihilationsts teach about eradication or permanently wiping out the "soul."

The word "destroy" is translated from the word "apollumi" which is a word often translated as "lost." Examples include the parable of the lost (appolumi) son, the lost (appolumi) coin, and the parable of the the lost (appolumi) coin.

The prodigal son was said by his father to have been "lost" (appolumi) and then found. I believe that James' warning about the fire of the fiery tongue spreading to the rest of the body applies in that sense of becoming lost by being led away through sin.

- the scripture speaks about being thrown into Gehenna AFTER having died - that sounds like something happening in the 'afterlife'. I'd like to know how you view this Seth, in relation to judgment and sin.

I do believe that it is a reference to judgment after death and resurrection, and I believe that the judgment will entail metaphysical death (meaning death in sin) for the purpose of teaching the same lesson learned by the prodigal son about sin and how pleasure in sin leads to destruction, then ultimately repentance. That is how I believe God will use "strong delusion" for those who practiced deception to believe a lie and be judged.

I have a paper that includes more detail about it: http://mercifultruth.com/links-savedbygrace.html and also the comment that joeteekay linked.

[gregoryfl]

:thumbsup: Ronen...my reasoning,too. I thought..what did the Romans do with all the dead bodies when they leveled Jerusalem...

  not enough room to bury...heap them up in the ravine?

Exactly. Here is the entire quote. Note the tone that Josephus writes with:

3. So all hope of escaping was now cut off from the Jews, together with their liberty of going out of the city. Then did the famine widen its progress, and devoured the people by whole houses and families; the upper rooms were full of women and children that were dying by famine, and the lanes of the city were full of the dead bodies of the aged; the children also and the young men wandered about the market-places like shadows, all swelled with the famine, and fell down dead, wheresoever their misery seized them. As for burying them, those that were sick themselves were not able to do it; and those that were hearty and well were deterred from doing it by the great multitude of those dead bodies, and by the uncertainty there was how soon they should die themselves; for many died as they were burying others, and many went to their coffins before that fatal hour was come. Nor was there any lamentations made under these calamities, nor were heard any mournful complaints; but the famine confounded all natural passions; for those who were just going to die looked upon those that were gone to rest before them with dry eyes and open mouths. A deep silence also, and a kind of deadly night, had seized upon the city; while yet the robbers were still more terrible than these miseries were themselves; for they brake open those houses which were no other than graves of dead bodies, and plundered them of what they had; and carrying off the coverings of their bodies, went out laughing, and tried the points of their swords in their dead bodies; and, in order to prove what metal they were made of they thrust some of those through that still lay alive upon the ground; but for those that entreated them to lend them their right hand and their sword to despatch them, they were too proud to grant their requests, and left them to be consumed by the famine. Now every one of these died with their eyes fixed upon the temple, and left the seditious alive behind them. Now the seditious at first gave orders that the dead should be buried out of the public treasury, as not enduring the stench of their dead bodies. But afterwards, when they could not do that, they had them cast down from the walls into the valleys beneath.

[gregoryfl]

This idea of being disposed of outside of Jerusalem was a huge thing for the Hebrew people, and, Elohim himself. Notice his own words:

18 On account of this, thus says the LORD against Jehoiakim son of Josiah king of Judah, Woe against this man. In no way should they lament him, saying, O brother. Nor shall they weep over him, saying, Alas, O lord. 19 As the burial of a donkey he shall be buried; being scraped away he shall be tossed beyond the gate of Jerusalem.

[Tom]

I think those who will be executed and have their corpses burned in "Gehenna" will not only have their bodies destroyed, but they will lose the desire of their souls by missing life in the Millennium in the kingdom of the heavens in Israel which is the hope of all the Jewish people.

[gregoryfl]

:thumbsup: Ronen...my reasoning,too. I thought..what did the Romans do with all the dead bodies when they leveled Jerusalem...

  not enough room to bury...heap them up in the ravine?

Exactly. Here is the entire quote. Note the tone that Josephus writes with:

3. So all hope of escaping was now cut off from the Jews, together with their liberty of going out of the city. Then did the famine widen its progress, and devoured the people by whole houses and families; the upper rooms were full of women and children that were dying by famine, and the lanes of the city were full of the dead bodies of the aged; the children also and the young men wandered about the market-places like shadows, all swelled with the famine, and fell down dead, wheresoever their misery seized them. As for burying them, those that were sick themselves were not able to do it; and those that were hearty and well were deterred from doing it by the great multitude of those dead bodies, and by the uncertainty there was how soon they should die themselves; for many died as they were burying others, and many went to their coffins before that fatal hour was come. Nor was there any lamentations made under these calamities, nor were heard any mournful complaints; but the famine confounded all natural passions; for those who were just going to die looked upon those that were gone to rest before them with dry eyes and open mouths. A deep silence also, and a kind of deadly night, had seized upon the city; while yet the robbers were still more terrible than these miseries were themselves; for they brake open those houses which were no other than graves of dead bodies, and plundered them of what they had; and carrying off the coverings of their bodies, went out laughing, and tried the points of their swords in their dead bodies; and, in order to prove what metal they were made of they thrust some of those through that still lay alive upon the ground; but for those that entreated them to lend them their right hand and their sword to despatch them, they were too proud to grant their requests, and left them to be consumed by the famine. Now every one of these died with their eyes fixed upon the temple, and left the seditious alive behind them. Now the seditious at first gave orders that the dead should be buried out of the public treasury, as not enduring the stench of their dead bodies. But afterwards, when they could not do that, they had them cast down from the walls into the valleys beneath.

Notice that it was AFTER they died, that they were thrown into the valley (Hinnom).

[sheila]

    very sobering...they failed to recognize His visitation[in His son] who would have saved them from this horrible end.

    I believe this scenario is going to come upon the whole world as the end of this age approaches..

   

[Seth]

I believe a judgment had already occurred before 70AD.

Romans 11
11 I ask then: Did God reject his people? By no means! I am an Israelite myself, a descendant of Abraham, from the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God did not reject his people, whom he foreknew.Don't you know what Scripture says in the passage about Elijah—how he appealed to God against Israel: 3 "Lord, they have killed your prophets and torn down your altars; I am the only one left, and they are trying to kill me"[a]? 4 And what was God's answer to him? "I have reserved for myself seven thousand who have not bowed the knee to Baal."5 So too, at the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace.

At the present time (when he wrote that) indeed there was a judgment executed upon Israel, from which a foreknown remnant (including Paul) was saved from:

Romans 11
7 What then? What the people of Israel sought so earnestly they did not obtain. The elect among them did, but the others were hardened, 8 as it is written: "God gave them a spirit of stupor, eyes that could not see and ears that could not hear, to this very day."[c]

They were already cut off of the branch years before 70AD occurred through a spirit of stupor given to them by God. Being cut off by God like a branch is definitely reason to fear him rather than let pride lead us and I think the same will occur for many Christians who perform atrocities in his name. As Paul said, if they get prideful, God can always cut them off too, and regraft the others, so take care. In that manner, I believe the bodies were already cast over the wall of a higher Jerusalem long before any physical war occurred which killed some but not others.

[gregoryfl]

Of course, Yeshua brought the judgment of the world upon himself when he died. Neither judgment discounts the other. BOTH are referred to in the writings and true.

[gregoryfl]

    very sobering...they failed to recognize His visitation[in His son] who would have saved them from this horrible end.

    I believe this scenario is going to come upon the whole world as the end of this age approaches..

Indeed, Shimon urged as much when he said: "Be saved from this crooked generation."'

[sheila]

 I can see that,Seth.  also..since man's body bears the image of the corrupt[satan/adversary/tools] I believe God is showing

the end of the evil contrast tools. Since God teaches by good/evil contrast...these men's bodies served as an example of

the evil ones end [unclean use/tool of adversary] and those that  Christ kept escaping[all men/bought redeemed/mercy.]

   some men in their roles down here..must serve as vessels of wrath..that the scriptures be fulfilled...satan leads them in the way

of destruction..that their spirits be saved on the DAY of the LORD[Valley of dry bones vision]

[Abigail]

The word "destroy" is translated from the word "apollumi" which is a word often translated as "lost." Examples include the parable of the lost (appolumi) son, the lost (appolumi) coin, and the parable of the the lost (appolumi) coin.

The prodigal son was said by his father to have been "lost" (appolumi) and then found. I believe that James' warning about the fire of the fiery tongue spreading to the rest of the body applies in that sense of becoming lost by being led away through sin.

That is truly wonderful! :banana: I mean, being lost is very different from being destroyed!

I do believe that it is a reference to judgment after death and resurrection, and I believe that the judgment will entail metaphysical death (meaning death in sin) for the purpose of teaching the same lesson learned by the prodigal son about sin and how pleasure in sin leads to destruction, then ultimately repentance. That is how I believe God will use "strong delusion" for those who practiced deception to believe a lie and be judged.

I have a paper that includes more detail about it: http://mercifultruth.com/links-savedbygrace.html and also the comment that joeteekay linked.

I've read it a few weeks ago and probably will read it a few more times to let it sink in. It makes so much sense to my spirit. Obviously I've read it to fast, in snippets, because I did not remind the part you wrote on Gehenna when I was questioned about these scriptures lately.
Just to clarify: you describe judgment mainly as suffering the consequences of sin, ultimately leading to repentance. So when someone dies 'in sin', and has not yet been converted, it is like he has not finished his course yet - he is still in the foreign country, or maybe on his way to the porks, so to say. Do you believe judgment after death is similar to judgment in this earthly life? Or maybe in a more intense way?

[sheila]

yes..and Judas whom satan entered..was pictured as the only one lost[son of perdition] in order that the scriptures be fulfilled.