If those that endure till the end are saved...

[Zeek]

God has set up this world in a way where we KNOW love.
And that love can be weakened or it can be strengthened.

We don't come into the world not knowing love AT ALL.

We experience varying degrees of love.
The more we UNDERSTAND love... the more we CAN love.

The more we understand love, the more we understand GOD.

YES, but is that true for those veiled by the shadow?   Those kicked out of the garden with flaming swords not letting them back in.  

I don't disagree with sparrow's viewpoint, i just have only been able to see it when I look at the gospel as fulfilled through Christ and his return; imo; ushering the NEW Earth.   (preterist view)  

If we are not in an new "era", then their are the "Ishmaels" still out there; who are persecuting those who know HIM, and they don't know LOVE.  As Jesus said, if you knew me; you would take of this water and drink.  

Are all drinking??

Joh 4:10  Jesus answered and said unto her, If thou knewest the gift of God, and who it is that saith to thee, Give me to drink; thou wouldest have asked of him, and he would have given thee living water.

[Zeek]

do these men in Jude know love?

Jud 1:10  But these speak evil of those things which they know not: but what they know naturally, as brute beasts, in those things they corrupt themselves.

Jud 1:11  Woe unto them! for they have gone in the way of Cain, and ran greedily after the error of Balaam for reward, and perished in the gainsaying of Core.

Jud 1:12  These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear: clouds they are without water, carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots;

Jud 1:13  Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever.

Jud 1:14  And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,

Jud 1:15  To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.

Jud 1:16  These are murmurers, complainers, walking after their own lusts; and their mouth speaketh great swelling words, having men's persons in admiration because of advantage.

Jud 1:17  But, beloved, remember ye the words which were spoken before of the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ;

Jud 1:18  How that they told you there should be mockers in the last time, who should walk after their own ungodly lusts.

Jud 1:19  These be they who separate themselves, sensual, having not the Spirit.

Jud 1:20  But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost,

Jud 1:21  Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.

Jud 1:22  And of some have compassion, making a difference:

Jud 1:23  And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh.

Jud 1:24  Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,

Jud 1:25  To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.

[Zeek]

is this to know LOVE


Gal 4:29  But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.

[Zeek]

1Jn 2:11  But he that hateth his brother is in darkness, and walketh in darkness, and knoweth not whither he goeth, because that darkness hath blinded his eyes.

1Jn 2:9  He that saith he is in the light, and hateth his brother, is in darkness even until now.

[jabcat]

Not only should we understand what salvation is, but what end is in view that we are to endure until.

Exactly.  Thanks for the prior post as well...yes, "doing church"...interesting concept.

[Zeek]

1Jn 2:15  Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.

[sparrow]

Zeek... I don't think we can come to an understanding.
I appreciate your posts, but I think our perspectives are just too different right now.
And that's all right.

Peace to you.
Perhaps we will chat again about something else one day.

:HeartThrob:,
sparrow

[Zeek]

Zeek... I don't think we can come to an understanding.
I appreciate your posts, but I think our perspectives are just too different right now.
And that's all right.

Peace to you.
Perhaps we will chat again about something else one day.

:HeartThrob:,
sparrow

actually they are not different, i agree with your post. 

my question; is if we look at the bible as "an apply to all generations" then yours and mine ideas on love are wrong as clearly the bible speaks of evil men with evil intentions that are children of satan.   

for me, if we see the bible as a story of redemption and salvation that was fulfilled in Christ and his return (past tense) and the old was done away with; then the authority that held back humanity from experiencing LOVE was done away with; and LOVE is here, now to be revealed and released. 

I see so much love, in so many people; even non believers.  And I believe it is from God. 

I like to see how people come to these conclusions.  I wanted to see how you Sparrow, from a biblical perspective; you were able to come to the conclusion that LOVE is in all. 

From a heart perspective, I know how you did,;  it's just there.  I know, I feel it too.  I refuse to look at people as horrible sin filled creatures destined to torture; but as Children of God, BELOVED, and i believe that too is the message we should reveal and live.

Z

[sparrow]

Zeek... I don't think we can come to an understanding.
I appreciate your posts, but I think our perspectives are just too different right now.
And that's all right.

Peace to you.
Perhaps we will chat again about something else one day.

:HeartThrob:,
sparrow

actually they are not different, i agree with your post. 

my question; is if we look at the bible as "an apply to all generations" then yours and mine ideas on love are wrong as clearly the bible speaks of evil men with evil intentions that are children of satan.   

for me, if we see the bible as a story of redemption and salvation that was fulfilled in Christ and his return (past tense) and the old was done away with; then the authority that held back humanity from experiencing LOVE was done away with; and LOVE is here, now to be revealed and released. 

I see so much love, in so many people; even non believers.  And I believe it is from God. 

I like to see how people come to these conclusions.  I wanted to see how you Sparrow, from a biblical perspective; you were able to come to the conclusion that LOVE is in all. 

From a heart perspective, I know how you did,;  it's just there.  I know, I feel it too.  I refuse to look at people as horrible sin filled creatures destined to torture; but as Children of God, BELOVED, and i believe that too is the message we should reveal and live.

Z

hmmmm.
Ok, after reading that post then it does seem that maybe we see things in similar ways.


But... I'm still not quite sure what you are asking?
Are you playing devil's advocate, then?
or...?

Sorry, I'm just trying to understand where you're coming from..

I don't neccessarily see the bible as "inerrant".
So, really... it doesn't matter to me.

He leads.
I follow.
He uses the bible sometimes.
and sometimes not.

So, if you're looking for me to lay out biblical verses...sorry.

If someone NEEDS someone to quote the bible and without that they can't respect the message that a person is trying to get across, then there's not a whole lot I can do about that.

Now, I'm sure I could go open my bible and pour over it ad nauseum to give you an answer.
But my answers dwell in my HEART. And they're not arranged neatly by numbered verses.

Do you understand what I mean?


I think that's why I was bowing out of the conversation.

Because everyone needs bible verses thrown at them.

Well, God doesn't always operate that way.
At least not with me.

Peace to ya friend...

I hope you understand what I mean.
If I could reach in, take out my heart and slap it on the table for you... I would.

[IceDash]

1Jn 2:15  Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.

This what confused me, God so loved the "world" he send his son to die for us, so the love of God also don't have the love himself...very confusing....

[WhiteWings]

(AUV-NT)      You should not love the  [godless]  world,  nor the things  [i.e.,  the materialistic values]  that are part of this  [present]  age.  If any person loves the world,  a  [genuine]  love for the Father is not in his heart.

1Jn 2:15  To you all, whether fathers, young men, or little children, I say, Love not the world - Pursue your victory by overcoming the world. If any man love the world - Seek happiness in visible things, he does not love God.


iD,

I think the verse doesn't mean to hate the whole world but only the sinful things of the world.

[martincisneros]

You're right, Zeek.  Salvation is salvation unto obedience and sanctification by the Spirit.  Paul's Gospel from Romans to Philemon is one of obedience.  Only by obedience to our heavenly Father can we have true and lasting happiness, luxury, and pleasure in the Kingdom of Christ and of God both in this world and in any to follow it.  Otherwise, we perish and the shame of our nakedness is exposed in that Day.  Father meticulously plans every detail of our lives, and we must obey or return to Hell.  People speak of wanting relationship over Mosaic law, not realizing that law is easier 'cause it doesn't require the careful planning of each half hour of your day to conform with Father's desires.  Law just means don't screw up, while relationship is like the old song says "Come on and walk on the water with Me."

29And he that sent me is with me: the Father hath not left me alone; for I do always those things that please him. (John 8:29)

31but the world must learn that I love the Father and that I do exactly what my Father has commanded me. Come now; let us leave. (John 14:31)

17Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world. (1John 4:17)

[martincisneros]

And God always operates by the Word.  Always.  Thankfully, He does give specifics Personally.  But everything, even the worlds, are according to the Word.  Every specific I've ever gotten from Him has always been a harvest of the Word, even if at the time I didn't know what was the Seed to what particular thing.  Too many Scriptures can be cited about being leery of ANYTHING/ANYONE that doesn't come by BOTH the Spirit and the Word.  Lord Jesus based the totality of His integrity, His guidance, His ministry, and His overcoming upon the Written Word of God, and He never changes.  When He returns, He'll be a Word believing, Word confessing, Word meditating, Word lead Saviour of the World.  He'll forever be saying "it is Written..." and anyone that doesn't know that about Him, hasn't yet discovered the Christ of the pages of the Bible, but is perhaps listening to a different spirit.

[sparrow]

And God always operates by the Word.  Always.  Thankfully, He does give specifics Personally.  But everything, even the worlds, are according to the Word.  Every specific I've ever gotten from Him has always been a harvest of the Word, even if at the time I didn't know what was the Seed to what particular thing.  Too many Scriptures can be cited about being leery of ANYTHING/ANYONE that doesn't come by BOTH the Spirit and the Word.  Lord Jesus based the totality of His integrity, His guidance, His ministry, and His overcoming upon the Written Word of God, and He never changes.  When He returns, He'll be a Word believing, Word confessing, Word meditating, Word lead Saviour of the World.  He'll forever be saying "it is Written..." and anyone that doesn't know that about Him, hasn't yet discovered the Christ of the pages of the Bible, but is perhaps listening to a different spirit.

Martin,

There are great truths in the bible, but if you think that is the only way that God reveals truth, or talks to us then we will just have to agree to disagree. It is one way, but it is not the ONLY way.

[WhiteWings]

There are great truths in the bible, but if you think that is the only way that God reveals truth, or talks to us then we will just have to agree to disagree. It is one way, but it is not the ONLY way.

Sparrow,

The way I read Martins answer he's not disagreeing with you.
There are many ways the truth can be revealed to someone. But only the method differs. The (meaning of) words are always the same as found in the Bible.

Correct Martin?

[sparrow]

There are great truths in the bible, but if you think that is the only way that God reveals truth, or talks to us then we will just have to agree to disagree. It is one way, but it is not the ONLY way.

Sparrow,

The way I read Martins answer he's not disagreeing with you.
There are many ways the truth can be revealed to someone. But only the method differs. The (meaning of) words are always the same as found in the Bible.

Correct Martin?

I didn't read it that way, but if THAT is what is he actually saying, then I don't have a problem with that.

Edited to add: well, actually... with saying that, let me also say, I'm not one who is convinced that the bible is inerrant.
I understand there are many who absolutely don't question the validity of the entire bible. I'm just not one of them.
I do question. So maybe that will shed some light. I think some things, people twist and turn and twist and turn and twist and turn and try to make it fit. But it's a square peg in a round hole. God is love. Whatever doesn't line up with that statement needs to be examined VERY closely before it is taken as truth. LOVE is the measuring stick, not the bible.  (This is just my opinion and I know others, many perhaps, disagree and that's ok.)

Just my :2c:

[WhiteWings]

Good point.

When I say Bible I actually mean the 100% exact word of God/Jesus.

I'm not one who is convinced that the bible is inerrant.

I think noone on this forum is. How many thread have we about translation errors on this forum.....?
But the orginal words don't clash with personal revelations.
That brings me to your point. The personal revelation can clash with translation errors in the Bible we have now.

Got a few more cents for me?  :winkgrin:

[jabcat]

Good point.

When I say Bible I actually mean the 100% exact word of God/Jesus.

I'm not one who is convinced that the bible is inerrant.

I think noone on this forum is. How many thread have we about translation errors on this forum.....?
But the orginal words don't clash with personal revelations.

Amen.  Nail on head  :gthumbsup:  The originals (as best we can ascertain)...

[jabcat]

The work of the Spirit of God within those who are called and "sealed with that Holy Spirit of promise," which is the surety of their "inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession" (Eph. 1:12-14).   Praise God for His goodness and mercy!

6according as the testimony of the Christ was confirmed in you,

7so that ye are not behind in any gift, waiting for the revelation of our Lord Jesus Christ,

8who also shall confirm you unto the end -- unblamable in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ;

9faithful [is] God, through whom ye were called to the fellowship of His Son Jesus Christ our Lord.

I Corinthians 1

There are many scriptures about falling, consequences, judgment, and the enduring to the end...but IMO, they must be reconciled with the above, seen in the whole context of saved believers will be confirmed to the end.  So again, IMO, a complete study would take into account who was being talked to and about what exactly, because Paul is very clear that the Spirit of God ensures salvation to those called and given the faith to believe...that God does the work in the believer to "keep that which is committed unto Him against that day".  He is our righteousness...pursue Him, love Him, live in obedience to Him...and He ensures the final result.  Not only the Author, but the Finisher.  His blood is not in vain.

To God be the glory...great things He has done!

[IceDash]

And God always operates by the Word.  Always.  Thankfully, He does give specifics Personally.  But everything, even the worlds, are according to the Word.  Every specific I've ever gotten from Him has always been a harvest of the Word, even if at the time I didn't know what was the Seed to what particular thing.  Too many Scriptures can be cited about being leery of ANYTHING/ANYONE that doesn't come by BOTH the Spirit and the Word.  Lord Jesus based the totality of His integrity, His guidance, His ministry, and His overcoming upon the Written Word of God, and He never changes.  When He returns, He'll be a Word believing, Word confessing, Word meditating, Word lead Saviour of the World.  He'll forever be saying "it is Written..." and anyone that doesn't know that about Him, hasn't yet discovered the Christ of the pages of the Bible, but is perhaps listening to a different spirit.

Martin,

There are great truths in the bible, but if you think that is the only way that God reveals truth, or talks to us then we will just have to agree to disagree. It is one way, but it is not the ONLY way.

The reason why martin did this is because God operate him this way while God operate you the other way, God make everyone differant in differantway.

[peteresther]

Hi,

I have been reading a lot from the main website and this forum! Can anyone tell me whether Zeek is still an active member?

I thought I would document my progress a little here and there, as I seek to find the truth...

So far I like the concept of God not having conditional love...we who have had Christ's true identity revealed to us are BLESSED, but we still have wicked hearts I think, which are carnal, and we forget that we were saved by grace, through faith, and that this faith was not of ourselves! No credit to us!

Then our wicked hearts go straight into judgemental mode somehow, and perhaps start thinking our salvation is to our credit, that we somehow have made a clever choice, and that those who also do not choose to believe after the gospel has been shared with them are just plain rebellious!

So far, the concept is working for me. I am not so happy about all the "correct" meanings of the original words, the perhaps "twisting" and forcing of scripture to harmonise with the concept of UR though... as if the plain reading of scripture cannot just be read, understood and implemented...almost as if my Bible (I love my Amplified Bible which at least has tried to convey the colourful Hebrew language better than word for word translations...) has some major conspiracy theory behind it...

Eternal life and eternal damnation? Same Greek word used for both these eternals? "All" not always "all" etc...are also worrying me...

The thought that as much as I would like to embrace UR, that the danger of telling people that they are saved, but just do not know it yet (or if that is my mindset) I could be party to a terrible heresy...

Please, I mean no offense, just documenting my progress...

Kind regards
Esther:)

[peteresther]

Sorry...another quick thought:

When scripture says that God will have all men saved...is this not God's perfect will? Does God not have 2 wills? His perfect will AND his permissive will?

Esther:)

[WhiteWings]

A devided kingdom will not stand.
If the King has 2 will then teh King is devided and His kingdom will collapse.

Can there be more than one perfect will?
If God has a perfect will and a less perfect will that would mean God is not perfect in everything He does.

John 3:35  The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand.
Þ God gives full control to Jesus
John 17:2  As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.
Matthew 1:21  And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.
Þ The task of Jesus is to give eternal life to all things (=mankind)
John 6:37  All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
Þ And Jesus accomplishes His task

[WhiteWings]

So far, the concept is working for me. I am not so happy about all the "correct" meanings of the original words, the perhaps "twisting" and forcing of scripture to harmonise with the concept of UR

The same can be said about the meaning mainstream Christianity gives to those words.
But there are many verses that for example very clearly show forever can't be true.
If you haven't found them yet I will list them for you.

though... as if the plain reading of scripture cannot just be read, understood and implemented...almost as if my Bible (I love my Amplified Bible which at least has tried to convey the colourful Hebrew language better than word for word translations...) has some major conspiracy theory behind it...

Still I would like to suggest a literal verion. Maybe not as your main Bible but to verify things.
There are many free versions online.

Eternal life and eternal damnation? Same Greek word used for both these eternals? "All" not always "all" etc...are also worrying me...

That's because both are not eternal. But after that period life continues for all.
Say your holiday starts in August. That of your colleges starts in July.
Then at the end of June God says:
Esther goes into age-during office work and the others go into age-during holiday.
That is only about the month July,
Not a perfect example.....

The thought that as much as I would like to embrace UR, that the danger of telling people that they are saved, but just do not know it yet (or if that is my mindset) I could be party to a terrible heresy...

That's good because you should: ....study yourself approved....
That means you have to critical verify all you read here.

Please, I mean no offense, just documenting my progress...

Nice document :laughing7:

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Hi Esther.....yes Zeek is an active member still. He's been posting this week, as a matter of fact. Be blessed.........