God gave plenty of time for sinners to repent while they were alive

[Searching_For_The_Truth]

How would you all respond when an ET'er argues that God gave plenty of time for sinners to repent while they were alive?

[jabcat]

How would you all respond when an ET'er argues that God gave plenty of time for sinners to repent while they were alive?

No one can come to God unless they're given the faith to believe.  Most in Jesus' day had no idea what He was about/"up to".  In fact, He "hid Himself" from there.  Did they have a chance to repent/believe?  Many people died during that time when Jesus was on earth "hiding Himself" from them (He said "it's only given to you to understand.." to His disciples).  So if a person lives 110 years, hears about Jesus, but is never given faith to believe on Him (can we conjure up our faith to be a Christian?)....

There's also a dilemma here (maybe rick can respond to this).  Most of humanity that ever lived has never heard the name of Jesus Christ.  Yet the Bible says there's no other way to the Father.  So one thing for most who believe in ET to consider is, what happens when one either draws their last breath in this life or Jesus returns and initiates the next age?  Is God done, is that it, too bad so sad?  If so, what happens to those folks?

Is salvation by chance?

[marie glen]

How would you all respond when an ET'er argues that God gave plenty of time for sinners to repent while they were alive?

How cold that would make Him sound! brrrrr...! I would respond, what about all the millions who have never heard the gospel? And really, there's only one verse which can be read to imply after death all hope is lost, and that's when Jesus told the pharisees unless they repented they would die in their sins.. Surely to rise in one's sins is not as joyful as the first resurrection at Jesus' return, but why do we carry it so far? The 'hell' myth predates Christianity by quite a bit! And how every use of the word 'hell' can be easily explained!

I like to do pre-emptive strikes :laughing7: by saying things like "I think we underestimate God and His Great Plan of salvation." Or if being reaLLy low key "I can't help thinking Jesus reaches many more souls than we think, perhaps many at the moments of their passing.." in hopes of planting a seed..

[Seth]

How would you all respond when an ET'er argues that God gave plenty of time for sinners to repent while they were alive?

It's just not a Biblical argument. It's someone's opinion.  :dontknow:

I'd ask the person where it says there's a cutoff period of time in the first place.

[eaglesway]

I would agree, for those who really heard the gospel. However, not all have heard. ETrs have them burning forever too. Some of them even have little babies burning forever.

But the fact that those who have heard and refused and did not accept- even if they had enough time shouldnt automatically mean they will burn forever. How is that ETrs seem to think this is just and fair, that a person who refused the gospel should burn forever? Where did the idea that burning forever is the only just penalty for evry sinner from the least to the greatest come from anyway?

It takes a really distorted mentality to see God as pleased, and the saints content, throughout an eternity with the unending screams of souls burning alive in the foreground.

Such a god is a monstrosity, and the preaching of that monster is one of the greatest stumbling blocks there is in the world.

[Searching_For_The_Truth]

I would agree, for those who really heard the gospel. However, not all have heard. ETrs have them burning forever too. Some of them even have little babies burning forever.

But the fact that those who have heard and refused and did not accept- even if they had enough time shouldnt automatically mean they will burn forever. How is that ETrs seem to think this is just and fair, that a person who refused the gospel should burn forever? Where did the idea that burning forever is the only just penalty for evry sinner from the least to the greatest come from anyway?

It takes a really distorted mentality to see God as pleased, and the saints content, throughout an eternity with the unending screams of souls burning alive in the foreground.

Such a god is a monstrosity, and the preaching of that monster is one of the greatest stumbling blocks there is in the world.

We have to keep the following verse in mind when it comes to those who heard the Gospel but refused.

"No man can come unto the Son except the Father draws him," said Jesus (John 6:44)

In UR terms, everyone will have their appointed time of salvation when the time is right.

[Lazarus Short]

We have to keep the following verse in mind when it comes to those who heard the Gospel but refused.

"No man can come unto the Son except the Father draws him," said Jesus (John 6:44)

In UR terms, everyone will have their appointed time of salvation when the time is right.

Yes - Jesus, who told His disciples that those who had seen Him had seen the Father, also said that if He were lifted up, He would draw all men to Himself.  I have noted that Jesus was silent on two issues which are held to be important by some:  hell and reincarnation.

[jabcat]

Yes, as you've been pointing out;  if "hell" or eternal torment was the fate of unbelievers, wouldn't it also have been appropriate for at least some of the millions that lived during the Old Testament to have been warned about it?  Or for Paul to have said something about it?  Or for Jesus to have referred to something besides corrective discipline?

[marie glen]

I would agree, for those who really heard the gospel. However, not all have heard. ETrs have them burning forever too. Some of them even have little babies burning forever.

But the fact that those who have heard and refused and did not accept- even if they had enough time shouldnt automatically mean they will burn forever. How is that ETrs seem to think this is just and fair, that a person who refused the gospel should burn forever? Where did the idea that burning forever is the only just penalty for evry sinner from the least to the greatest come from anyway?

It takes a really distorted mentality to see God as pleased, and the saints content, throughout an eternity with the unending screams of souls burning alive in the foreground.

Such a god is a monstrosity, and the preaching of that monster is one of the greatest stumbling blocks there is in the world.

   I absolutely agree!! This deep rooted doctrine of 'hell' blasphemes God everyday! And keeps the good news  of the gospel hidden.

Its roots go back to Greece, to Egypt.. to Babylon and Babel Tower. It was the worship of the stars of heaven with the queen of heaven and the sun (fire) god (Baal and Baals), and the Canaanite version of it got extremely bad. But part of the mythology was a 'place of the dead' (other than the grave/or lower part of the earth/dust, where Jesus descended to).

I was reading somewhere how Dante's levels of hell were very like levels expressed in a very ancient pagan writing..

.."surely.. you won't die...?" the serpent said.. thus the need for a 'place of the dead'..

[marie glen]

We have to keep the following verse in mind when it comes to those who heard the Gospel but refused.

"No man can come unto the Son except the Father draws him," said Jesus (John 6:44)

In UR terms, everyone will have their appointed time of salvation when the time is right.

      :banana: :iagree: :iagree:

Yes, as you've been pointing out;  if "hell" or eternal torment was the fate of unbelievers, wouldn't it also have been appropriate for at least some of the millions that lived during the Old Testament to have been warned about it?  Or for Paul to have said something about it?  Or for Jesus to have referred to something besides corrective discipline?

   :dsunny: :dsunny: Absolutely!!

The whole idea is  :Chinscratch: insane.. a bit psychotic?!

[[Certainly, at the very least, veRy illogical! I really don't know how anyone believes it!]]

[Psalm91:4]

When I was young and was taught that doctrine, it rocked my world to the point that my only coping mechanism was to attend a bible college thinking to become a missionary.

For me, that was the only way to deal with such horrors. That burden was not "easy" at all!  No "rest" then for my soul ( or anyone else's I ran into back then. Ha....drove lots of people nuts no doubt....with that desperate attempt at a rescue.)

But the Lord is good.  His truth reached even me and gave me true rest in him.  :)

[micah7:9]

1Co 15:22  for even as in Adam all die, so also in the Christ all shall be made alive,
1Co 15:23  and each in his proper order, a first-fruit Christ, afterwards those who are the Christ's, in his presence,
Rom 14:11  For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, to me every knee shall bow, And every tongue shall confess to God.

[Seth]

Isaiah 45
22"Turn to Me and be saved, all the ends of the earth;
            For I am God, and there is no other.

      23"I have sworn by Myself,
            The word has gone forth from My mouth in righteousness
            And will not turn back,
            That to Me every knee will bow, every tongue will swear allegiance.

      24"They will say of Me, 'Only in the LORD are righteousness and strength.'
            Men will come to Him,
            And all who were angry at Him will be put to shame.

All who were angry will come to him and be ashamed. But they WILL bow and "swear allegiance," and they they WILL say of him that in him are righteousness and strength. This statement is found just one chapter before this statement:

Isaiah 46   
9"Remember the former things long past,
            For I am God, and there is no other;
            I am God, and there is no one like Me,

      10Declaring the end from the beginning,
            And from ancient times things which have not been done,
            Saying, 'My purpose will be established,
            And I will accomplish all My good pleasure';

He can accomplish ALL his pleasure? Not according to Orthodoxy. So what is his good pleasure?  :Chinscratch:

1 Tim 2
I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men; 2For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty. 3For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; 4Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. 5For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; 6Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

So we have a Bible that says that God CAN do and get whatever he wants, plus he wants everyone to be saved, and that every knee shall bow and every mouth shall swear allegiance to him. And I'm supposed to think these things cannot happen because several Bibles agree on a mistranslation?

[micah7:9]

Isaiah 45
22"Turn to Me and be saved, all the ends of the earth;
            For I am God, and there is no other.

      23"I have sworn by Myself,
            The word has gone forth from My mouth in righteousness
            And will not turn back,
            That to Me every knee will bow, every tongue will swear allegiance.

      24"They will say of Me, 'Only in the LORD are righteousness and strength.'
            Men will come to Him,
            And all who were angry at Him will be put to shame.

All who were angry will come to him and be ashamed. But they WILL bow and "swear allegiance," and they they WILL say of him that in him are righteousness and strength. This statement is found just one chapter before this statement:

Isaiah 46   
9"Remember the former things long past,
            For I am God, and there is no other;
            I am God, and there is no one like Me,

      10Declaring the end from the beginning,
            And from ancient times things which have not been done,
            Saying, 'My purpose will be established,
            And I will accomplish all My good pleasure';

He can accomplish ALL his pleasure? Not according to Orthodoxy. So what is his good pleasure?  :Chinscratch:

1 Tim 2
I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men; 2For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty. 3For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; 4Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. 5For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; 6Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

So we have a Bible that says that God CAN do and get whatever he wants, plus he wants everyone to be saved, and that every knee shall bow and every mouth shall swear allegiance to him. And I'm supposed to think these things cannot happen because several Bibles agree on a mistranslation?

I suspect...yes :rolllol:

[Seth]

Ooops, I meant to post this in the Hebrews 5:9 thread. I guess it doesn't hurt to have it in two places.

[sheila]

....and because it seems an impossible thing with men....God say's   MINE OWN ARM BRINGS DELIVERANCE.....is MY  ARM TOO

  SHORT TO SAVE?...such men look upon the salvation of men..as being dependant upon man and his power...but it is when

  the dashing of the power of the saints is done...that the Court sits..the Ancient of Days...and then the people are given the

   Kingdom......and the POWER OF GOD WILL TRAMPLE ALL ENEMIES UNDERFOOT

[Lazarus Short]

I was reading somewhere how Dante's levels of hell were very like levels expressed in a very ancient pagan writing..

I would expect that, given that his literary guide was the pagan Roman poet, Virgil.

[Eduard]

I would agree, for those who really heard the gospel. However, not all have heard. ETrs have them burning forever too. Some of them even have little babies burning forever.

But the fact that those who have heard and refused and did not accept- even if they had enough time shouldnt automatically mean they will burn forever. How is that ETrs seem to think this is just and fair, that a person who refused the gospel should burn forever? Where did the idea that burning forever is the only just penalty for evry sinner from the least to the greatest come from anyway?

It takes a really distorted mentality to see God as pleased, and the saints content, throughout an eternity with the unending screams of souls burning alive in the foreground.

Such a god is a monstrosity, and the preaching of that monster is one of the greatest stumbling blocks there is in the world.

Indeed. But Et'ers will say that sinning against an infinite God demands an infinite penalty. I still don't see how that means God is just. :sigh:

[Seth]

Indeed. But Et'ers will say that sinning against an infinite God demands an infinite penalty. I still don't see how that means God is just. 

In a a nice way, my answer to that is, says who? Who made up that rule? What rule of logic does that conform to? To me when people says that, they're trying to make it looks like a rule of logic when it isn't, by using the word "infinite" twice to make it appear that it balances like a math equation. Weak. God is bound to no such rule.

[micah7:9]

Ask them to read the Bible, His Word and should they find evidence of such a thought as, "Indeed. But Et'ers will say that sinning against an infinite God demands an infinite penalty. I still don't see how that means God is just. "
If you must.... lead them to 1Jn 4:8  He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.

Seems to me an ETers out look is, see how good I am and see how bad you are, God is going to make you pay because you would not listen, and well I'll get a pat on the back. :2c:





[eaglesway]

Ask them to read the Bible, His Word and should they find evidence of such a thought as, "Indeed. But Et'ers will say that sinning against an infinite God demands an infinite penalty. I still don't see how that means God is just. "
If you must.... lead them to 1Jn 4:8  He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.

Seems to me an ETers out look is, see how good I am and see how bad you are, God is going to make you pay because you would not listen, and well I'll get a pat on the back. :2c:

If sinning against an infinite God demands an infinite penalty, then the central reason for creation is punishment, the ultimate effect of God's righteousness is destruction, and sin triumphs over salvation, as the impotent cross of Christ crumbles into the flames of hell, lost to the consciousness of a multitude of beings formed from the beginning for the purpose of demonstrating how terrible a god is YHWH, the infinite punisher.

The truth is, sinning against an infinite God reveals the infinite love of God and the infinite vision of Jesus,

"If I am lifted up from the earth, I will draw all men unto me"




[/quote]

[Psalm91:4]

 :iagree:

Too, it seems to me that if the infinite punishment position were true,  then Jesus would still be in a state of death, yet somehow kept alive to endure a merciless torture endlessly for the sins of the whole world.

And as terrible as death is, that is -all- that it is.  To borrow a contemporary phrase... " It is what it is."  The wages of sin is death etc.

Take it back to the garden....death.

All of that infinite punishment doctrine has just been added to God`s own words.

Besides the resurrection, of course, part of the very good news itself that Paul preached was that Jesus ---> died.  And He had to actually dismiss, give up, send away his spirit to do that, to die. This, in and of itself...was a miracle really.

Jesus satisfied everything which was necessary to fulfil God`s will; He was sent to do God`s will.  He said from the cross that it was accomplished.  He didn`t say that he had a few more things to do that would take an infinite amount of time.  :)

[sheila]

adders poison of the original serpent...first he said 'surely you will not die[all in Adam say 'LIAR!"  now he's saying God will

   destroy forever or eternally torment fallen man, totally disallowing Christ's redemption work of drawing all men up to return

  unto the Father from the grave[dead in sin and trespass].

[WhiteWings]

I would agree, for those who really heard the gospel. However, not all have heard. ETrs have them burning forever too. Some of them even have little babies burning forever.

But the fact that those who have heard and refused and did not accept- even if they had enough time shouldnt automatically mean they will burn forever. How is that ETrs seem to think this is just and fair, that a person who refused the gospel should burn forever? Where did the idea that burning forever is the only just penalty for evry sinner from the least to the greatest come from anyway?

It takes a really distorted mentality to see God as pleased, and the saints content, throughout an eternity with the unending screams of souls burning alive in the foreground.

Such a god is a monstrosity, and the preaching of that monster is one of the greatest stumbling blocks there is in the world.

Indeed. But Et'ers will say that sinning against an infinite God demands an infinite penalty. I still don't see how that means God is just. :sigh:

That's an ET claim that's not found in the Bible. That gives me a liberty to state a counter claim...


Sinning against a infinite mercyful and loving God is just a detour to eternal life

[marie glen]

:iagree:

Too, it seems to me that if the infinite punishment position were true,  then Jesus would still be in a state of death, yet somehow kept alive to endure a merciless torture endlessly for the sins of the whole world.

And as terrible as death is, that is -all- that it is.  To borrow a contemporary phrase... " It is what it is."  The wages of sin is death etc.

Take it back to the garden....death.

All of that infinite punishment doctrine has just been added to God`s own words.

     :thumbsup:  :thumbsup:  :thumbsup: