Eternal Destruction

[WhiteWings]

Just a thought for discussion...

What if God's will is for us to make our own choices, and to be able to reject that which he has planned in part.

If God allows us to make choices then that's part of His will/plan.
Our choices may reject His plan but He won't change His plan because of it. Neither will the outcome change.
Just think about just before the destruction of Sodom. Do you spare them if there are 30 good men? Yes I do. 20, 10 ,1. Was man driving a bargain with God? There were 0 good men so Sodom got destroyed. Was God's plan changed? Now imagine that there was at least 1 good man in Sodom. God wouldn't have destroyed Sodom. Would that mean His plan was thwarted? Or did did things go as He knew before creation?

I was always taught perfect will vs permissive will.  I'm not sure I can buy absolute free will but I can certainly see us making some choices within a story line.

I'll steer a bit clear of the free will stuff. It's not really important imo. No matter if our free will is 0% or 100% it's still according to plan and God knew what we would do before He started creating. So for me it never is against the will of Father.

God knows point A and point B of our lives.  How we get there has alot to do with our choices, and his redirection through circumstance.  I mean did God will me to eat that chicken tamale for dinner?  Did he will me to scratch my head?  Am I merely a puppet on a string?  While I can buy that God controls the beginning and end...I'm not sure we are unable to make choices and sin of our own will.  I am not comfortable with the thought of blaming God for my sins.  Everything in my being tells me to own responsibility for my actions and correct them.

God wired your brain. You brain made you grab that chicken.
God made flowers. This fall I put a bulb in the ground next summer it has become a flower. Does God comes down from heaven every night and add a few molecules to make the flower grow? Or did He design nature (wired the brain) in such a way that a bulb turns into a flower?
Look again at my maze example read everything twice.....  :winkgrin:

[WhiteWings]

Then I apologize for my post.  But, it appears many skirt around the topic and make their points on fw.  Either we should discuss free will or totally leave the concept out of our posts.  If people abide by the rules of the community, and our responsibility to love our neighbor then I don't see the issue.  Free will is a subject that I would most certainly like to discuss because I don't have a firm grasp on the concept.

The way I understand it, the crew and the forum owner are not against discussions on free will and trinity. But history shows that such discussions quickly become heated debates. then threads have to be locked and in a few cases members have been banned for a week. And because of that they decided to ban the topic. Plus, not sure, the forum owner wants a primary focus on UR.

OTOH if you, like me, believe that Father has a plan that is 100% sure to evolve as He planned/wishes/desires, then you have the framework. You know the outcome. The details are of less importance. But of course nice to know.
Example:
Train=God's plan.
A train drives from A to B. Humanity is in that train.
Does it really matter if the people in that train are (not) allowed to walk/talk/read/sleep/sing/etc?
The train just keeps going and arrives at B no matter what the people in that train are doing.

[jabcat]

Then I apologize for my post.  But, it appears many skirt around the topic and make their points on fw.  Either we should discuss free will or totally leave the concept out of our posts.  If people abide by the rules of the community, and our responsibility to love our neighbor then I don't see the issue.  Free will is a subject that I would most certainly like to discuss because I don't have a firm grasp on the concept.

The way I understand it, the crew and the forum owner are not against discussions on free will and trinity. But history shows that such discussions quickly become heated debates. then threads have to be locked and in a few cases members have been banned for a week. And because of that they decided to ban the topic. Plus, not sure, the forum owner wants a primary focus on UR.

OTOH if you, like me, believe that Father has a plan that is 100% sure to evolve as He planned/wishes/desires, then you have the framework. You know the outcome. The details are of less importance. But of course nice to know.
Example:
Train=God's plan.
A train drives from A to B. Humanity is in that train.
Does it really matter if the people in that train are (not) allowed to walk/talk/read/sleep/sing/etc?
The train just keeps going and arrives at B no matter what the people in that train are doing.

I've posted on it multiple times, but I believe it may have all been before you were on-board Shawn.  

IMO, your key phrase is this - "If people abide by the rules of the community, and our responsibility to love our neighbor...."  Unfortunately, history shows that's not what happens with certain issues.  And this is one of'em.  Too divisive, too strong of opinions, sets off too many issues within some members.

So, I'll ditto everything WW just said.  I'll add sort of a quick review of what I've posted in the past on it;  we can talk about issues involved, how we believe God works, etc., especially when focused on specific scriptures.  I.e., "God works all things according to the counsel of His will", etc.  The main problems come into play when 2 things happen 1) members start throwing around the specific "free will" and sovereignty terms (which become like red capes to a bull) and 2) members start charging at the red capes, and end up goring each other while their horns have become locked.  It's one of 2 or 3 topics that history has shown this happens with, so it's moderated both tightly and artfully;  as in, discussion is allowed, but in terms of perhaps what you describe as "beating around the bush".  Again, talking about concepts, situations, and scriptures, without resorting to the too-easy-to-reach-for hot button terms that just send too many straight through the rafters.

I'll look for a past (further) explanatory post and re-post it if I can find it.

I personally recommend this article from the TM main page.   :thumbsup:

http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/savior-of-the-world/FreeMoralAgent-Eby.html

[jabcat]

http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=2693.msg27186#msg27186
---------------------------

A post from awhile back on the topic....

Thanks for your understanding.  I'm not saying "________, you better not ever let that word slip out of your mouth!".  I am saying I bet that 99% of the time I can express my POV without saying "Bob, man does not have freewill, it's a limited will - God's will rather than man's will.  Yep, that's the way I see it;  no free will".  I can make my point (even being a bit of smart-aleck)  by saying, "if you think it's up to you, then save yourself".  Never used any terms/labels, point still probably made (even though expressing it like that, you'd probably still want to smack me  :bigGrin:  ).  Anyway, it's an example.  A bad one - but an example.

And conversely, I bet 99% of the time you can express your POV without saying "Sally, man has freewill and I sure do believe it, yes sir, we got ourselves a dose of freewill".   Not telling you what to say, you're quite capable;  and you may say it quite a bit different than this.  But just as an example to express my point, I could see you saying something like "I believe we have to make choices, God requires it, He hold us accountable, etc".  Never used the hot-button term, point made, and able to stay on point rather than veer into a "freewill!"/"not-freewill!", "freewill, Stupid!"/"not-freewill, Stupid!" food fight.   A little extra creativity, a little extra consideration, etc., still basically able to say what we all believe.

The main thing is, a time or two in passing to answer a question or set a premise is one thing - that even though it's an off-limits topic, we'd probably blink and let it slide.  But bringing it up over and over, multiple times in a short "conversation", is likely to be waving honey around in front of bears, the bears are gon'na head for the honey jar, and somebody's gonna end up getting clawed or bit!

Give it some thought, don't feel smacked around, but do realize it's a serious issue and is regarded as such.  We can do this without posts starting to get cut and all that jazz.

We are brothers and sisters here, and God is helping me see that I need to act like it (for a change).  We can do it!

God's blessings, James.

[thinktank]

Just a thought for discussion...

What if God's will is for us to make our own choices, and to be able to reject that which he has planned in part.

If God allows us to make choices then that's part of His will/plan.
Our choices may reject His plan but He won't change His plan because of it. Neither will the outcome change.
Just think about just before the destruction of Sodom. Do you spare them if there are 30 good men? Yes I do. 20, 10 ,1. Was man driving a bargain with God? There were 0 good men so Sodom got destroyed. Was God's plan changed? Now imagine that there was at least 1 good man in Sodom. God wouldn't have destroyed Sodom. Would that mean His plan was thwarted? Or did did things go as He knew before creation?


I think there are many plans in existent all at the same time, so the plan you are refering to, what is that plan exactly?

Because too me, there are certain plans that God has for our lives that are not fullfilled due to our failures or sins. If it were not for our sins, right now we would be living in paradise, but becasue of our sins and the sins of man the earth is a mess. Is it Gods will for the earth to be a mess? In some ways to chastize us yes but mostly the will of God on this matter is a definite no. We can easilly deduce this because when mankind got so wicked, out of his will, he sent a flood to destroy the earth. People tent to forget that the bible is the written revelation of God, that it was being written as time unfolded, that means it had unlimited possibilities.

The master plan you are refering to can man thwart it? Of course not how can man stop God, for it is he that brought us into existence by his will, to produce creatures after his image, but he looks for those who have faith in him. I think the scriptures are so smart in their execution that anythings possible, e.g is the antichrist set in stone, or could the antichrist be any person, if it is any person does that void the scriptures, I don't belive it is, so God is very flexible with his scriptures, the living word I belive in not the dead word , which means things can still unfold to his will :winkgrin:.

I was always taught perfect will vs permissive will.  I'm not sure I can buy absolute free will but I can certainly see us making some choices within a story line.

I'll steer a bit clear of the free will stuff. It's not really important imo. No matter if our free will is 0% or 100% it's still according to plan and God knew what we would do before He started creating. So for me it never is against the will of Father.

God knows point A and point B of our lives.  How we get there has alot to do with our choices, and his redirection through circumstance.  I mean did God will me to eat that chicken tamale for dinner?  Did he will me to scratch my head?  Am I merely a puppet on a string?  While I can buy that God controls the beginning and end...I'm not sure we are unable to make choices and sin of our own will.  I am not comfortable with the thought of blaming God for my sins.  Everything in my being tells me to own responsibility for my actions and correct them.

God wired your brain. You brain made you grab that chicken.
God made flowers. This fall I put a bulb in the ground next summer it has become a flower. Does God comes down from heaven every night and add a few molecules to make the flower grow? Or did He design nature (wired the brain) in such a way that a bulb turns into a flower?
Look again at my maze example read everything twice.....  :winkgrin:

You mean his stomach made him grab that chicken  :winkgrin: another man might say no his hand grabbed that chicken, another, no his nose.

Before Jesus the gentiles were slaves to sin but now Jesus the light has come there is no where to hide their head, before they were in bondage to sin, but Jesus came to set us free and set an example that he overcome the world, so now we are without excuse.

[Pierac]

Just for fun!

http://thegloryrd.com/apadams/moral.html

Paul

[micah7:9]

Just for fun!

http://thegloryrd.com/apadams/moral.html

Paul

Amen and thank you my friend. :thumbsup:

[LS]

Just a thought for discussion...

What if God's will is for us to make our own choices, and to be able to reject that which he has planned in part.  I was always taught perfect will vs permissive will.  I'm not sure I can buy absolute free will but I can certainly see us making some choices within a story line.  God knows point A and point B of our lives.  How we get there has alot to do with our choices, and his redirection through circumstance.  I mean did God will me to eat that chicken tamale for dinner?  Did he will me to scratch my head?  Am I merely a puppet on a string?  While I can buy that God controls the beginning and end...I'm not sure we are unable to make choices and sin of our own will.  I am not comfortable with the thought of blaming God for my sins.  Everything in my being tells me to own responsibility for my actions and correct them.  

Amen. 

What is sin, if it is not choosing our own will in opposition to God's desire for us? I don't believe it is God's will/desire for us to choose sin. I don't believe God desired or scripted for John Couey to kidnap, rape and bury Jessica Lunde alive. When I sin, I know I am choosing it and that I oughtn't be making that choice. To say "God made me do it" is perverse, in my mind.

I see no logic in God scripting us to sin and then punishing us for doing what we had no choice in.   :2c:

[WhiteWings]

Scripting is a strong word but....

(Romans 8:20) For, unto vanity, hath creation been made subject––not by choice, but by reason of him that made it subject, in hope

This verse, and others, do indicate that Father does do certain things that makes it harder not to sin.  :2c:

[shawn]

Scripting is a strong word but....

(Romans 8:20) For, unto vanity, hath creation been made subject––not by choice, but by reason of him that made it subject, in hope

This verse, and others, do indicate that Father does do certain things that makes it harder not to sin.  :2c:

I can buy that.  I believe the deck has certainly been stacked.  Obviously, this is for the purposes only God knows.  We did not choose to be born into slavery to sin.  We did not choose to be subject to fleshly desires.  With that said, God has indeed shown mankind mercy.  I choose to be a slave to Christ.  I choose the spiritual over the carnal.  But, I do so knowing this ability did not come from me.  It's one of the main reasons I always questioned ET.  I do not believe God makes me sin.  I believe I choose to sin but I know he formed me subject to sin.  I believe he did so...in order to shown me mercy and to form me into a useable vessel.

[thinktank]

Just a thought for discussion...

What if God's will is for us to make our own choices, and to be able to reject that which he has planned in part.  I was always taught perfect will vs permissive will.  I'm not sure I can buy absolute free will but I can certainly see us making some choices within a story line.  God knows point A and point B of our lives.  How we get there has alot to do with our choices, and his redirection through circumstance.  I mean did God will me to eat that chicken tamale for dinner?  Did he will me to scratch my head?  Am I merely a puppet on a string?  While I can buy that God controls the beginning and end...I'm not sure we are unable to make choices and sin of our own will.  I am not comfortable with the thought of blaming God for my sins.  Everything in my being tells me to own responsibility for my actions and correct them.  

Amen. 

What is sin, if it is not choosing our own will in opposition to God's desire for us? I don't believe it is God's will/desire for us to choose sin. I don't believe God desired or scripted for John Couey to kidnap, rape and bury Jessica Lunde alive. When I sin, I know I am choosing it and that I oughtn't be making that choice. To say "God made me do it" is perverse, in my mind.

I see no logic in God scripting us to sin and then punishing us for doing what we had no choice in.   :2c:

Exactly, the foolishness of it all is laid bare for all to see, that God does not sin and cannot sin.

[Quaesitor]

And we have to keep in mind that God did send His Son to die for us.
In the end He is ALL in ALL.
It was His purpose from the beginning, just saying that He lets things happen is incomplete because He created ALL things according to His purpose.

[Quaesitor]

Just a thought for discussion...

What if God's will is for us to make our own choices, and to be able to reject that which he has planned in part.  I was always taught perfect will vs permissive will.  I'm not sure I can buy absolute free will but I can certainly see us making some choices within a story line.  God knows point A and point B of our lives.  How we get there has alot to do with our choices, and his redirection through circumstance.  I mean did God will me to eat that chicken tamale for dinner?  Did he will me to scratch my head?  Am I merely a puppet on a string?  While I can buy that God controls the beginning and end...I'm not sure we are unable to make choices and sin of our own will.  I am not comfortable with the thought of blaming God for my sins.  Everything in my being tells me to own responsibility for my actions and correct them.  

Amen. 

What is sin, if it is not choosing our own will in opposition to God's desire for us? I don't believe it is God's will/desire for us to choose sin. I don't believe God desired or scripted for John Couey to kidnap, rape and bury Jessica Lunde alive. When I sin, I know I am choosing it and that I oughtn't be making that choice. To say "God made me do it" is perverse, in my mind.

I see no logic in God scripting us to sin and then punishing us for doing what we had no choice in.   :2c:

Exactly, the foolishness of it all is laid bare for all to see, that God does not sin and cannot sin.

He cannot sin because to sin is to go against what God has declared, He cannot do anything He doesn't desire or purpose, therefore He cannot sin.
It was His will that we'd be born into slavery to sin exactly like it was His will that Israel was to be put into slavery in Egypt for 400 years.

[WhiteWings]

I can buy that.  I believe the deck has certainly been stacked.

I do not believe God makes me sin.  I believe I choose to sin but I know he formed me subject to sin.

Don't you see a very slippery slope here?
How much stacking the deck does it take to say God made you sin?

I believe he did so...in order to shown me mercy and to form me into a useable vessel.

It seems God stacked the deck not just a little. Everybody must sin other wise He can't show mercy.

If your 4 year old son takes your gun you left on the kitchen table and accidently shoots his 5 year old friend. Who's guilty?
a] Your son because you told him never to take things from the kitchen table?
b] His friend because he didn't duck the bullet?
c] The gun?
d] The father of yours son's friend because he should have keep an eye on his son?
e] You?

I.m.o. the answer is "e".
You set the playing field by leaving that gun on the table. You stacked the deck.
I would say you did something very wrong but are not guilty of murder because it was an accident.
But what if you left that gun there on purpose?
What would the judge say? "Shawn you did stack the deck but that's not important because your son did the shooting so not you but he is guilty."
:2c:

[shawn]

Just a thought for discussion...

What if God's will is for us to make our own choices, and to be able to reject that which he has planned in part.  I was always taught perfect will vs permissive will.  I'm not sure I can buy absolute free will but I can certainly see us making some choices within a story line.  God knows point A and point B of our lives.  How we get there has alot to do with our choices, and his redirection through circumstance.  I mean did God will me to eat that chicken tamale for dinner?  Did he will me to scratch my head?  Am I merely a puppet on a string?  While I can buy that God controls the beginning and end...I'm not sure we are unable to make choices and sin of our own will.  I am not comfortable with the thought of blaming God for my sins.  Everything in my being tells me to own responsibility for my actions and correct them.  

Amen. 

What is sin, if it is not choosing our own will in opposition to God's desire for us? I don't believe it is God's will/desire for us to choose sin. I don't believe God desired or scripted for John Couey to kidnap, rape and bury Jessica Lunde alive. When I sin, I know I am choosing it and that I oughtn't be making that choice. To say "God made me do it" is perverse, in my mind.

I see no logic in God scripting us to sin and then punishing us for doing what we had no choice in.   :2c:

Exactly, the foolishness of it all is laid bare for all to see, that God does not sin and cannot sin.

He cannot sin because to sin is to go against what God has declared, He cannot do anything He doesn't desire or purpose, therefore He cannot sin.
It was His will that we'd be born into slavery to sin exactly like it was His will that Israel was to be put into slavery in Egypt for 400 years.

"Blessed is the man who endures temptation; for when he has been approved, he will receive the crown of life which the Lord has promised to those who love Him. Let no one say when he is tempted, "I am tempted by God"; for God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He Himself tempt anyone. But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed. Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death." James 1:12-15

[shawn]

I can buy that.  I believe the deck has certainly been stacked.

I do not believe God makes me sin.  I believe I choose to sin but I know he formed me subject to sin.

Don't you see a very slippery slope here?
How much stacking the deck does it take to say God made you sin?

I believe he did so...in order to shown me mercy and to form me into a useable vessel.

It seems God stacked the deck not just a little. Everybody must sin other wise He can't show mercy.

If your 4 year old son takes your gun you left on the kitchen table and accidently shoots his 5 year old friend. Who's guilty?
a] Your son because you told him never to take things from the kitchen table?
b] His friend because he didn't duck the bullet?
c] The gun?
d] The father of yours son's friend because he should have keep an eye on his son?
e] You?

I.m.o. the answer is "e".
You set the playing field by leaving that gun on the table. You stacked the deck.
I would say you did something very wrong but are not guilty of murder because it was an accident.
But what if you left that gun there on purpose?
What would the judge say? "Shawn you did stack the deck but that's not important because your son did the shooting so not you but he is guilty."
:2c:

The above quote is a response to this post as well.  I have to ask myself a couple things when there is Biblical support and logic for two sides of an argument.  Which one is truth and how will my belief effect my walk.

I can only speak for myself.  But, if I believe God makes me sin then it would be very easy for me to not own my behaviors.  That is very dangerous territory for me.  I could very easily take the stance that since God made me sin then why bother trying?  I am merely a puppet on a string and things will all work out.  Why produce fruit?  Either God will force my hand to produce fruit or he won't...if it happens it happens.  For me, this thinking could produce sloth in my spiritual life.

For those above this kind of thinking then maybe this post isn't for you.  But, everything in my spiritual walk has directed me to own my sin...my wrong actions...impure thinking and seek the face of God.  It's not to say one should beat themselves with many lashes...it's to say we should own it...repent and turn from our sins.  When I struggle I seek relationship even more.

[WhiteWings]

I have to ask myself a couple things when there is Biblical support and logic for two sides of an argument.  Which one is truth and how will my belief effect my walk.

I don't know the answer Shawn. I see a conflict. I see a God that claims to hate sin. But that same God declares in various verses He stacked the deck to make sinning much more likely. "all have sinned"

I can only speak for myself.  But, if I believe God makes me sin then it would be very easy for me to not own my behaviors.  That is very dangerous territory for me.  I could very easily take the stance that since God made me sin then why bother trying?  I am merely a puppet on a string and things will all work out.  Why produce fruit?  Either God will force my hand to produce fruit or he won't...if it happens it happens.  For me, this thinking could produce sloth in my spiritual life.

That line of thinking shows you are a sinner. You have to be restrained...
There are many sins. Most people don't even consider to torture a random person. They don't need to be restrained to not commit that sin.
But for many being "creative" with taxes is almost a duty why it's against the law.
I think a true saint doesn't need to restrain himself. It just comes natural. Being as saint is no act.

[Lefein]

A man named Robert has a daughter.

The daughter's name is Mary.

Mary marries a man named Derick.

Derick abuses his wife Mary, beating her, slapping her, insulting her, degrading her physically and emotionally.

Whose fault is it for the abuse?

Is it Mary's fault that she exists to be abused?  Is it Derick's father-in-law for bringing Mary into the world where she experienced the abuse?  Or is it Derick's fault for abusing?

[micah7:9]

Its just a matter of how much one believes that God is.
Col 1:17  and himself is before all, and the all things in him have consisted.
I just happen to believe that God is in ALL THINGS and I find no reason to blame him for any miss step that I THINK is a miss step. He is well aware of how our feeble minds think. He is quite aware of ALL that has, is, and will happen, He is not shocked by His creaton. I will rest in Him.

Mic 7:8  Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.
Mic 7:9  The indignation of Jehovah I do bear, For I have sinned against Him, Till that He doth plead my cause, And hath executed my judgment, He doth bring me forth to the light, I look on His righteousness.

[shawn]

I have to ask myself a couple things when there is Biblical support and logic for two sides of an argument.  Which one is truth and how will my belief effect my walk.

I don't know the answer Shawn. I see a conflict. I see a God that claims to hate sin. But that same God declares in various verses He stacked the deck to make sinning much more likely. "all have sinned"

I can only speak for myself.  But, if I believe God makes me sin then it would be very easy for me to not own my behaviors.  That is very dangerous territory for me.  I could very easily take the stance that since God made me sin then why bother trying?  I am merely a puppet on a string and things will all work out.  Why produce fruit?  Either God will force my hand to produce fruit or he won't...if it happens it happens.  For me, this thinking could produce sloth in my spiritual life.

That line of thinking shows you are a sinner. You have to be restrained...
There are many sins. Most people don't even consider to torture a random person. They don't need to be restrained to not commit that sin.
But for many being "creative" with taxes is almost a duty why it's against the law.
I think a true saint doesn't need to restrain himself. It just comes natural. Being as saint is no act.

Well maybe you are further along in the journey than myself.  I am certainly a sinner.  I am only saved by grace.  I am saved by no actions of my own.  If being accountable for my actions is restraint...tie me down!  Because, nothing in my spirit says to me that God forces me to sin.  When I sin (and yes I still sin) I don't believe God's hand forces me to do so.  

I believe the Bible calls us to ownership of our sins.  How can one flee from sin if sin is from God?  Who can flee from God?  Why give a commandment to futility?  It's because we haven't been called to futility.  We have been called to righteousness.  And I stand firm in this belief as supported by scripture.

"...you have persevered and have patience, and have labored for My name's sake and have not become weary. Nevertheless I have this against you, that you have left your first love.  Remember therefore from where you have fallen; repent and do the first works, or else I will come to you quickly and remove your lampstand from its place—unless you repent." Revelation 2:3-6

"As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten. Therefore be zealous and repent. Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and dine with him, and he with Me." Revelation 3:19-20

Flee also youthful lusts; but pursue righteousness, faith, love, peace with those who call on the Lord out of a pure heart. " 2 Timothy 2:22-23

If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life maimed than with two hands to go into hell, where the fire never goes out. And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life crippled than to have two feet and be thrown into hell. And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than have two eyes and be thrown into hell."

Before I was afflicted I went astray, but now I keep Your word. I know, O Lord, that Your judgments are right, and that in faithfulness You have afflicted me. PSALM 119:67, NKJV

Therefore submit to God. Resist the devil and he will flee from you. JAMES 4:7, NKJV

I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. GALATIANS 5:16, NKJV





I also keep in mind this verse when approached with thinking out of line with what is spoken to my spirit.

"Convince, rebuke, exhort, with all longsuffering and teaching. For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, but according to their own desires, because they have itching ears, they will heap up for themselves teachers; and they will turn their ears away from the truth, and be turned aside to fables. But you be watchful in all things..."  2 Timothy 4:2-5

[thinktank]

I have to ask myself a couple things when there is Biblical support and logic for two sides of an argument.  Which one is truth and how will my belief effect my walk.

I don't know the answer Shawn. I see a conflict. I see a God that claims to hate sin. But that same God declares in various verses He stacked the deck to make sinning much more likely. "all have sinned"


I don't see him stacking the deck towards sin. Take the garden of eden, let's say there are 100 trees, but there is only one of those trees that Adam cannot eat, I'd say the odds are stacked in favour of the good and acceptable trees.

In Genesis after adam sins there are only a couple of people on the earth and Abel was righteous, but Cain was driven to murder. Why didn't cain just do a good old fashioned fist fight or a wrestling match?
Because he was unrighteous and his works testified that.

I can only speak for myself.  But, if I believe God makes me sin then it would be very easy for me to not own my behaviors.  That is very dangerous territory for me.  I could very easily take the stance that since God made me sin then why bother trying?  I am merely a puppet on a string and things will all work out.  Why produce fruit?  Either God will force my hand to produce fruit or he won't...if it happens it happens.  For me, this thinking could produce sloth in my spiritual life.

That line of thinking shows you are a sinner. You have to be restrained...
There are many sins. Most people don't even consider to torture a random person. They don't need to be restrained to not commit that sin.
But for many being "creative" with taxes is almost a duty why it's against the law.
I think a true saint doesn't need to restrain himself. It just comes natural. Being as saint is no act.

Jesus was tempted to sin and even he needed to be restrained. The scripture says he was as sheep to the slaughter and became dumb and opened not his mouth. Apostle Paul needed restraining, God even sent satan's messanger a demon to stop him coming arrogant, the thorn in the flesh.

cast down evil imaginations that exalteth itself.

[WhiteWings]

Well maybe you are further along in the journey than myself.

I'm sure that isn't true. 

I believe the Bible calls us to ownership of our sins.  How can one flee from sin if sin is from God?

I don't know Shawn. I explained my thoughts in the stacking the deck post and the child with the gun examples. So I'm not saying you are wrong. I'm just saying it's not black or white.

[WhiteWings]

Jesus was tempted to sin and even he needed to be restrained.

I think you have a different understanding of the word tempted as I do. Yes, Jesus was tempted. We are told of one occasion with Satan, but perhaps He was tempted on daily basis. But that's not what I mean by tempted. Satan was the temptor. The question is if Jesus really had to fight Satan's offer (tempted) or that He never even considered Satan's offer.
Maybe I should have written "feel tempted" instead of "be tempted".

[Molly]

21So I find this law at work: When I want to do good, evil is right there with me. 22For in my inner being I delight in God's law; 23but I see another law at work in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within my members. 24What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? 25Thanks be to God—through Jesus Christ our Lord!

    So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God's law, but in the sinful nature a slave to the law of sin.

--Rom 7

Paul here makes a demarcation between body and mind where the body and mind are warring against each other.  He calls his body a 'slave of death.'

[this] "body" [of death]

G4983
σῶμα
sōma
so'-mah
From G4982; the body (as a sound whole), used in a very wide application, literally or figuratively: - bodily, body, slave.



He goes on to say he has been rescued from this condition by Jesus.


1Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, 2because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death.

-Rom 8


But this change originates not in the body, but in the mind.


5Those who live according to the sinful nature have their minds set on what that nature desires; but those who live in accordance with the Spirit have their minds set on what the Spirit desires.

--Rom 8


It is a matter of what the mind is focused on.  A new mind means a new man.


6The mind of sinful man is death, but the mind controlled by the Spirit is life and peace; 7the sinful mind is hostile to God.

--Rom 8


We see that Jesus' battle with Satan only involves the mind.  His body never participates in the temptations and every temptation is overcome by scripture.

Does a new mind mean also a new body?


10But if Christ is in you, your body is dead because of sin, yet your spirit is alive because of righteousness. 11And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit, who lives in you.

--Rom 8


First the mind is renewed, then the body is dead because of sin, then the body itself is raised to a new life.  We can be complete in Christ--mind and body-- in this life as well as the next.


Ephesians 5:30
For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.

[jabcat]

Moved from another thread, off-topic for that thread.  Fits here [please forgive any personal offense to vhl];

jabcat; Side note that just sort of struck me. Forgive me, but valuehumanlife and annihilationism just sort of catches my attention. God bless, James.

Shawn;
I'm not trying to create trouble but that last statement was an odd one. So if one believes the Bible supports ED then the person doesn't value human life?

jabcat;
No judgment was made in my statement, and I personally don't think it's an odd observation. I said it struck me. I believe it's something to consider, if one so chooses, and I also provided a link where it's been discussed already in detail. But since you've directly asked, taken to its ultimate conclusion, yes, the terms linked together are a bit ironic - in my personal opinion.

God values human life so much that He said He would drag ALL men to Himself, not annihilate 90+ percent of it.

But that discussion is in other threads, including the link. I made a passing observation. Peace.


Shawn;
That's unfortunate. I think there of those of us who value all human life but don't believe the Bible supports UR. I personally don't believe God asks ED believers for approval of his judgements.

jabcat;
I expressed an opinion, one which I believe is pretty compatible with a UR site. Again, in case it's missed, I'm not judging an individual. I thought I pretty clearly indicated it stuck out TO ME. Terms, concepts. Not people.

Everyone's free to believe as they see. Ultimately, this is what I believe, as I stated earlier. If it offends you, then that's probably inherent in our individual points of view. Forgive me, I'm sorry for being offensive, but I can't back off from what I believe; that God values human life so much that He said He would give His only Son, Who would be lifted up, and then drag ALL men to Himself, not annihilate 90+ percent of them. I tried to say it gently and non-jugmentally. Maybe I failed.

Again, peace and the love of Christ be yours.