I was wondering if anyone has any thoughts on the nature of salvation itself. This may sound like a blindingly obvious question, but to me it seems there are some nuances to it. Tradition has a line in the sand, and if you are saved, you are over the line, or to put it another way, you grabbed on to the life jacket. This element undoubtedly has some truth to it, but some of the uses of the Greek word for salvation (σωζω - sozo) are very interesting:
Matthew 9:21
ἔλεγεν γὰρ ἐν ἑαυτῇ· ἐὰν μόνον ἅψωμαι τοῦ ἱματίου αὐτοῦ σωθήσομαι.
(and she said in herself, "if I only touch his garment, I will be "saved")
John 11:12
εἶπαν οὖν οἱ μαθηταὶ αὐτῷ· κύριε, εἰ κεκοίμηται σωθήσεται.
(so his disciples said to him, "Lord, if he has fallen asleep, he will be "saved")
Obviously those words are translated as "healed" and "wake up" in English, but it shows the wider scope of the Greek word. So adding these thoughts to the straightforward English definition of "saved", to me it adds some depth and flavor to the concept. The end of our faith is the salvation of our souls, but our salvation is also referenced in the past tense too. Some of this may be down to differences between salvation of the spirit, soul and body, but there may also be a different perspective as far as the "snatched from the sea" concept, followed by the ongoing healing and waking up as we are conformed to the image of Christ.
I am not sure I made the point very well, but I would be interested to hear thoughts.
QuoteI am not sure I made the point very well
Very clear. :winkgrin:
You wrote about the scope of the word saved. But why that scope? Maybe the answer is found in the question what we should be saved from?
Did the Father sent His Son to save use from Himself (Father). Or as a cure?
It can be argued sin is not our natural state. It's an illness caused by eating the forbidden fruit that causes death. We are saved out of (not from) death.
When we take medication against the flu we are healed and 'saved from' curse of fever.
The whole mission of Jesus is providing a cure to the venom of the serpent.
BTW the scope of words can also be because of doctrine. Even if the word only means heal it must also mean save because church decided that He saves us from hell.
As strange as it may sound it reminded me of these verses:
Ps 139:13-15 (HRB2012)
13 For You have possessed my inward parts; You
wove me in the womb of my mother.
14 I will thank You, for with fearful things I am wonderful; Your works are marvelous, and my soul knows it very well.
15 My bones were not hidden from You when I was made in secret; when
I was woven in the depths of the earth.
I agree that we should specify salvation from what. I believe we believers are chosen from before the disruption of the world (Ephesians 1:4) to be saved from the coming indignation (Romans 5:9) for eonian life (Romans 6:23, Titus 3:7), but eventually all mankind will be saved from death at the consummation of the eons when God will be all in all (1 Corinthians 15:20-28). And most of us here on this site have been saved from the deception of torture in fire forever to believe the truth of scripture that all on earth and in the heavens will be reconciled to God through Christ's blood on the cross (Colossians 1:20). The good news is that God is the savior of all mankind (1 Timothy 4:10).
Great thoughts !! :HeartThrob: Michael , Tony and Tom ,
Salvation , is saving something from corrupting and ruin
I thought of , Guys would understand this , It is like fixing up an old car someone was wanting to restore , give it new life and purpose , new parts and some Tender loving care TLC
To put some work in it and wait for some results in the end of the restoration , to turn something from unusable and make it the way you want and just for you and give it value .
I also like to compare natural things to spiritual things to
They have helped me understand parables much better in the Word of God too
For me salvation is saving from ruin and destruction and uselessness
Our faith in God and though His Son makes Hope alive and becomes a reality in our lives now
Jesus Christ WORD and Holy Spirit within you fills a void and darkness and emptiness that the whole world and its desires cannot ever fill
God gives life meaning and purpose and everyone can benefit from it , not just a few
His righteous works in the earth made known fill us with newness of Life and joy nothing can take this away from you no matter how bad things can seem at times , we can keep on going without giving up
we give up on the world and Give our all to God because He first Loved us and now we can can Love Him and others as He so desires ,
to know you are loved and needed and purposed in Gods desire for you , He chose you out of the world , Giving you His strength and ability to be able to master Love with patience and kindness and those fruits of the Spirit
we eat of in the Tree of Life and able to share those things the thankful fruits of the lips God is glorified in the earth as it is in heaven and its marvelous
to be partakers of HIS plan in the Day and Light of salvation and finishing work in the earth .
Love is a many splendored thing noun
1.
brilliant or gorgeous appearance, coloring, etc.; magnificence:
the splendor of the palace.
2.
an instance or display of imposing pomp or grandeur:
the splendor of the coronation.
3.
grandeur; glory; brilliant distinction:
the splendor of ancient Greek architecture.
4.
great brightness; brilliant light or luster.
Quote from: Shev on November 08, 2014, 08:48:46 AM
I was wondering if anyone has any thoughts on the nature of salvation itself. This may sound like a blindingly obvious question, but to me it seems there are some nuances to it. Tradition has a line in the sand, and if you are saved, you are over the line, or to put it another way, you grabbed on to the life jacket. This element undoubtedly has some truth to it, but some of the uses of the Greek word for salvation (σωζω - sozo) are very interesting:
Matthew 9:21
ἔλεγεν γὰρ ἐν ἑαυτῇ· ἐὰν μόνον ἅψωμαι τοῦ ἱματίου αὐτοῦ σωθήσομαι.
(and she said in herself, "if I only touch his garment, I will be "saved")
John 11:12
εἶπαν οὖν οἱ μαθηταὶ αὐτῷ· κύριε, εἰ κεκοίμηται σωθήσεται.
(so his disciples said to him, "Lord, if he has fallen asleep, he will be "saved")
Obviously those words are translated as "healed" and "wake up" in English, but it shows the wider scope of the Greek word. So adding these thoughts to the straightforward English definition of "saved", to me it adds some depth and flavor to the concept. The end of our faith is the salvation of our souls, but our salvation is also referenced in the past tense too. Some of this may be down to differences between salvation of the spirit, soul and body, but there may also be a different perspective as far as the "snatched from the sea" concept, followed by the ongoing healing and waking up as we are conformed to the image of Christ.
I am not sure I made the point very well, but I would be interested to hear thoughts.
Matthew 1:21
And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.
Jesus means "Jehovah saves" so the reason Jesus got his name is because his mission is to save from sin. I am glad you got that connection between salvation and healing. That's what the whole Gospel is about. :thumbsup:
That us why Romans 5:10 says that we are saved by "his life" meaning the Spirit. The Spirit heals us from the carnal mind and walking by the Spirit saves us from the corruption of our generations. When it says that the the end of our faith is the salvation of our souls, I believe it means that the point of faith, the reason for having it is our healing, because by faith is how we receive "his life" by which we are saved.
BTW, the word "from" in Matthew 1:21 is translated from "apo" meaning to be separated. It was used when someone would travel "from" (apo) one city to another. So, in essence it says "he shall save his people away from sin." Healing from sin is like being snatched away from the jaws of a ravenous beast.
The word, in Greek, is sozo, which is translated variously to saved, healed, delivered and can mean any or all at once of those depending on the context. Ultimately the entire creation will be delivered from corruption in the glorious liberty of the children of God, which is the broadest application of salvation, IMO- the restoration of all things within the ALL IN ALL of God :o)
The specific aspects of salvation could be a healing, a deliverance from a besetting sin, a revelation that builds you spirit and understanding.
We were saved by grace through faith. We are being saved by transformation. We will be saved by resurrection.
IMO
I think that when God created Adam, God had an eternal idea of the relationship.
Death (serpent) gave Adam a non-eternal idea of relationship with God.
Jesus saved us from relating to God in a non-eternal way, to our original
eternal relationship with God
Great thoughts everyone, thanks. :dsunny: I guess another way of phrasing the question would be, in the light of the Greek word "sozo", do you think we understand salvation in precisely the same way the Greek speaking church would have? I find that many Greek words really lose something in the translation. I am not saying there is anything major we are missing - more shades and nuances, but I find in reading the New Testament in Greek, so many things have a different flavor than they do in English.
Quote from: Shev on November 08, 2014, 08:49:43 PM
Great thoughts everyone, thanks. :dsunny: I guess another way of phrasing the question would be, in the light of the Greek word "sozo", do you think we understand salvation in precisely the same way the Greek speaking church would have? I find that many Greek words really lose something in the translation. I am not saying there is anything major we are missing - more shades and nuances, but I find in reading the New Testament in Greek, so many things have a different flavor than they do in English.
I guess it depends on how each modern, English speaker understands it. I believe the ETers view it as being salvaged from a future existence in hell. I believe it to be more in line with the scriptures you quoted, deliverance in the form of healing from an undesirable human condition.
Even the wrath to come, I believe is associated with that condition. For example when God sends strong delusion, people believe a lie. Then when they are sufficiently judged by that, they are saved from that condition, saved from sin. So I think the whole Gospel revolves around the Matthew 1:21 statement about being healed from sin.
Quote from: Seth on November 08, 2014, 08:52:50 PM
Quote from: Shev on November 08, 2014, 08:49:43 PM
Great thoughts everyone, thanks. :dsunny: I guess another way of phrasing the question would be, in the light of the Greek word "sozo", do you think we understand salvation in precisely the same way the Greek speaking church would have? I find that many Greek words really lose something in the translation. I am not saying there is anything major we are missing - more shades and nuances, but I find in reading the New Testament in Greek, so many things have a different flavor than they do in English.
I guess it depends on how each modern, English speaker understands it. I believe the ETers view it as being salvaged from a future existence in hell. I believe it to be more in line with the scriptures you quoted, deliverance in the form of healing from an undesirable human condition.
:thumbsup:
Quote from: Shev on November 08, 2014, 08:49:43 PM
Great thoughts everyone, thanks. :dsunny: I guess another way of phrasing the question would be, in the light of the Greek word "sozo", do you think we understand salvation in precisely the same way the Greek speaking church would have? I find that many Greek words really lose something in the translation. I am not saying there is anything major we are missing - more shades and nuances, but I find in reading the New Testament in Greek, so many things have a different flavor than they do in English.
I think there's always the problem of something being lost in translation from one language to another, and some things can't even be translated because they are specific to the culture of a particular language. The crazy thing is though that, regardless of translation, a lot of folks think salvation is from torture in fire forever when that's not even in the ancient scriptures because the result of sin is death not the common misconception of hell.
Quote from: Tom on November 08, 2014, 09:46:04 PM
Quote from: Shev on November 08, 2014, 08:49:43 PM
Great thoughts everyone, thanks. :dsunny: I guess another way of phrasing the question would be, in the light of the Greek word "sozo", do you think we understand salvation in precisely the same way the Greek speaking church would have? I find that many Greek words really lose something in the translation. I am not saying there is anything major we are missing - more shades and nuances, but I find in reading the New Testament in Greek, so many things have a different flavor than they do in English.
I think there's always the problem of something being lost in translation from one language to another, and some things can't even be translated because they are specific to the culture of a particular language. The crazy thing is though that, regardless of translation, a lot of folks think salvation is from torture in fire forever when that's not even in the ancient scriptures because the result of sin is death not the common misconception of hell.
Amen Tom!
I see it as entailing many things; healing, redeeming, crossing from unbelief to belief by having the Holy Spirit create a new man ("anyone in Christ..new creature") and taking up residence within. Perhaps most simply, "Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God-" Jn. 1:12
Blessings.
Quote from: jabcat on November 09, 2014, 12:39:57 AM
I see it as entailing many things; healing, redeeming, crossing from unbelief to belief by having the Holy Spirit create a new man ("anyone in Christ..new creature") and taking up residence within. Perhaps most simply, "Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God-" Jn. 1:12
Blessings.
:thumbsup: Yes He come to save men's lives not destroy them !!
Luke 9 for the Son of Man did not come to destroy men's lives,
but to save them Hebrews 9 26 Hebrews 9:26Expanded Bible (EXB)
26 ·Then [Otherwise; In such a case,] he would have had to suffer many times ·since the world was made [from the foundation/creation of the world]. But Christ ·came [appeared] ·
only once and for all time [once for all; 7:27; 9:12, 26; 10:10] at the ·end [culmination; climax] of ·the present age [time; L the ages] to ·take away all
[nullify; abolish] sin by sacrificing himself. :flowerred:
I personally think that the Holy Spirit transcends translation issues and gives the spiritual mind the spiritual meaning. I don't speak Greek but I am assured in my understanding of salvation because I have received it from the Spirit of God, through the illumination of the scriptures.
I agree that we're inspired by holy spirit through the word of God, but I think inaccurate translations can make it harder to fully understand the meaning of things such as "Gehenna" vs. "hell." I think discovering that made a big difference in how I understood the whole story.
:iagree:
Quote from: Tom on November 11, 2014, 04:25:26 AM
I agree that we're inspired by holy spirit through the word of God, but I think inaccurate translations can make it harder to fully understand the meaning of things such as "Gehenna" vs. "hell." I think discovering that made a big difference in how I understood the whole story.
True.
Why would God take so much trouble to write/inspire perfect Scriptures, warn that nothing may be altered in any way and then we just brush it away with "Who cares? No problem. HS will explain!"
For me such views are exactly the same as:
Romans 6:15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under the law but under grace? By no means!
Quote from: Tom on November 11, 2014, 04:25:26 AM
I agree that we're inspired by holy spirit through the word of God, but I think inaccurate translations can make it harder to fully understand the meaning of things such as "Gehenna" vs. "hell." I think discovering that made a big difference in how I understood the whole story.
What I was saying was that a person who easily overlooks the many verses on UR will not likely be persuaded by some debated word translations. At least thats what I've experienced..
Quote from: eaglesway on November 11, 2014, 06:01:53 PM
Quote from: Tom on November 11, 2014, 04:25:26 AM
I agree that we're inspired by holy spirit through the word of God, but I think inaccurate translations can make it harder to fully understand the meaning of things such as "Gehenna" vs. "hell." I think discovering that made a big difference in how I understood the whole story.
What I was saying was that a person who easily overlooks the many verses on UR will not likely be persuaded by some debated word translations. At least thats what I've experienced..
There is no other choice. There is no way you can explain UR without pointing to some UR verses. That often will bring up the greatest verse of all.... Matthew 25:46
You will have to prove punishment isn't torture.
You have to prove everlasting isn't everlasting at all.
How are you going to do that without any Greek? It gets even more techy when you want to link aion to olam?
The problem with many verses is that they can't be understood (100%) correctly without knowing what the words in that verse (can) mean.
It is always in Gods timing when he opens some one's eyes.
The only thing separating the all from being in the all is time.
Jesus conquered time, the Holy Spirit somehow made the cross the center of time.
The cross has affected the Garden(Past) and coming ages.
The cross will always have the same effect. No matter the time.
The eyes must be made to be open.
Quote from: WhiteWings on November 11, 2014, 08:45:45 AM
Quote from: Tom on November 11, 2014, 04:25:26 AM
I agree that we're inspired by holy spirit through the word of God, but I think inaccurate translations can make it harder to fully understand the meaning of things such as "Gehenna" vs. "hell." I think discovering that made a big difference in how I understood the whole story.
True.
Why would God take so much trouble to write/inspire perfect Scriptures, warn that nothing may be altered in any way and then we just brush it away with "Who cares? No problem. HS will explain!"
For me such views are exactly the same as:
Romans 6:15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under the law but under grace? By no means!
we are under bondage of sin but the old man of sin is going to be eliminated and the new creature in Christ is also within the walls of salvation in our clay bodies , both are dealt with in different ways and days but there is only 3 days and nights
one age /day Adam to Moses death reigns= sin = darkness
2 age /day Moses & law law reigns = day and night = sin exposed waiting on Christ
3 age/ Day / JESUS Christ reigns = DAY =sin covered by grace and Life is given
grace is about forgiving sin which =death and new life merges from death
the 3rd Day is the Tree with the seed in itself in Gen 1: 11
in 3 Days I will raise His Kingdom up He is being Lifted up , even though man cannot see it
its invisible to the natural eye
but the spiritual eyes knows it
Quote from: eaglesway on November 11, 2014, 06:01:53 PM
Quote from: Tom on November 11, 2014, 04:25:26 AM
I agree that we're inspired by holy spirit through the word of God, but I think inaccurate translations can make it harder to fully understand the meaning of things such as "Gehenna" vs. "hell." I think discovering that made a big difference in how I understood the whole story.
What I was saying was that a person who easily overlooks the many verses on UR will not likely be persuaded by some debated word translations. At least thats what I've experienced..
I agree in the sense that if people "overlook" any scripture, they pretty much have no use for scripture in the first place. But there are some people who see a scripture, but are not able to resolve a seeming conflict with other scripture because they do not understand the definitions of some words. I have had more than a few people contact me from my website and tell me that understanding the definitions of these words has made universal salvation something they could finally embrace.
They wanted to believe it, but they couldn't because they were unable to resolve the problems. Defining the terms can help resolve the problems people see, when they cannot accept universal salvation based on 1 Timothy 4:10
Exactly. They wanted to believe it and needed some wrinkles ironed out, which is what I said earlier.
A guy like Matt Slick isnt going to repsond like that. :laugh:
:iagree:
On the other hand, you never know. You just never know. Remember where Apostle Paul came from. :dsunny:
Absolutely. All things are possible with God. :banana:
Quote from: dajomaco on November 11, 2014, 06:31:27 PM
It is always in Gods timing when he opens some one's eyes.
The only thing separating the all from being in the all is time.
Jesus conquered time, the Holy Spirit somehow made the cross the center of time.
The cross has affected the Garden(Past) and coming ages.
The cross will always have the same effect. No matter the time.
The eyes must be made to be open.
Amen !
the fullness of time Christ come and died on the Cross !!'
now at the climax or end of the ages
Hebrews 9 26 Hebrews 9:26Expanded Bible (EXB)
26 ·Then [Otherwise; In such a case,] he would have had to suffer many times ·since the world was made [from the foundation/creation of the world]. But Christ ·came [appeared] ·
only once and for all time [once for all; 7:27; 9:12, 26; 10:10]
at the ·end [culmination; climax] of ·the present age [time; L the ages] to ·take away all [nullify; abolish] sin by sacrificing himself. Grace is it , there is nothing left when the grace is not taken
but all will , every knee will bow and every tongue confess JESUS CHRIST IS LORD !!
Romans14
...10But you, why do you judge your brother? Or you again, why do you regard your brother with contempt? [satans same accusing nature that murders his brother before God day and night
under the law /night and under grace / Day !!]
For we will all
stand[/b] before the judgment seat of God.
11For it is written, "AS I LIVE, SAYS THE LORD, EVERY KNEE SHALL BOW TO ME, AND EVERY TONGUE SHALL GIVE PRAISE TO GOD."
12So then each one of us will give an account of himself to God.
Yes the saving work of the Cross :flowerred:
By grace you are saved its the gift of God , Jesus is the reward !!
so many are still bound by the law and are being judged by the Law still but when we try to do good in the Law because we love God and he loves us
the gift of Christ in you the hope of glory comes reward make a gift of something to (someone) in recognition of their services, efforts, or achievements.
Jesus says in the scriptures we search and think life is in them , but its really in the Holy Spirit of Jesus Christ &Father that the Life is given !!!
36 "But I have a ·proof [testimony; witness] about myself that is ·greater [weightier] than that of John. [L For] The ·things [L works] I do, which are the ·things [L works] my Father gave me to ·do [complete; finish; C the signs and miracles which point to his saving work on the cross], ·prove [testify; witness] that the Father sent me.
37 And the Father himself who sent me has given ·proof [testimony; witness] ·about me [concerning me; on my behalf]. You have never heard his voice or seen ·what he looks like [his form; his outward appearance].
38 His ·teaching [word; message] does not ·live [remain; abide] in you, because you don't believe in the One the Father sent.
39 You ·carefully study [search; examine] the Scriptures because you think they give you eternal life. They do in fact ·tell [testify; witness] ·about me [concerning me; on my behalf], 40 but you ·refuse [do not want] to come to me to have that life.
41 "I don't ·need [or accept; receive] ·praise [glory; honor] from people.
42 But I know you—I know that you don't have God's love in you.
43 I have come ·from my Father and speak for him [L in my Father's name], ·but [or and] you don't ·accept [receive] me. But when another person comes, ·speaking only for himself [L in his own name], you will ·accept [receive] him.
44 You try to ·get praise [receive glory/honor] from each other, but you do not try to ·get the praise [receive glory/honor] that comes from the only God. So how can you believe?
45 Don't think that I will ·stand before the Father and say you are wrong [L accuse you before the Father].
The one who ·says you are wrong [L accuses you] is Moses, the one ·you hoped would save you [L in whom you hoped].
46 [L For] If you really believed Moses, you would believe me, because Moses wrote about me [C in the Torah, the first five books of the OT; for example, Deut. 18:15 quoted in Acts 3:22]. 47 But if you don't believe what Moses wrote, how can you believe what I say?"
Quote from: Seth on November 11, 2014, 06:59:55 PM
Quote from: eaglesway on November 11, 2014, 06:01:53 PM
Quote from: Tom on November 11, 2014, 04:25:26 AM
I agree that we're inspired by holy spirit through the word of God, but I think inaccurate translations can make it harder to fully understand the meaning of things such as "Gehenna" vs. "hell." I think discovering that made a big difference in how I understood the whole story.
What I was saying was that a person who easily overlooks the many verses on UR will not likely be persuaded by some debated word translations. At least thats what I've experienced..
I agree in the sense that if people "overlook" any scripture, they pretty much have no use for scripture in the first place. But there are some people who see a scripture, but are not able to resolve a seeming conflict with other scripture because they do not understand the definitions of some words. I have had more than a few people contact me from my website and tell me that understanding the definitions of these words has made universal salvation something they could finally embrace.
They wanted to believe it, but they couldn't because they were unable to resolve the problems. Defining the terms can help resolve the problems people see, when they cannot accept universal salvation based on 1 Timothy 4:10
It was the opposite with me when I first became aware of universal reconciliation and tried hard to disprove it. After I became aware of translation issues, the more I read, I finally became convinced it had to be true. I just was amazed that I never heard of it before, but then I realized that's because the church did such a good job of hiding it by forgery in the translation of scripture. Just by changing a few words, the church has changed the whole story. That's why I think translation is something that needs to be seen as important when you're reading scripture even though we need to realize there is no perfect version.
I believe we are not saved.....yet.....we are BEING saved....salvation is a process to become....It's hard, It's tough and through much tribulation. Saved is to be healed, made whole, we are being protected, delivered, kept in our walk, under His wing until we are able to fly under His power, spirit. I like the this translation, it brings it into a focus.....the present, now.
CLV(i) 16 For thus God loves the world, so that He gives His only-begotten Son, that everyone who is believing in Him should not be perishing, but may be having life eonian."
Of course it is only an opinion. :dsunny:
Quote from: rosered on November 11, 2014, 08:11:06 PM
Yes the saving work of the Cross :flowerred:
By grace you are saved its the gift of God , Jesus is the reward !!
so many are still bound by the law and are being judged by the Law still but when we try to do good in the Law because we love God and he loves us
the gift of Christ in you the hope of glory comes reward make a gift of something to (someone) in recognition of their services, efforts, or achievements.
Jesus says in the scriptures we search and think life is in them , but its really in the Holy Spirit of Jesus Christ &Father that the Life is given !!!
36 "But I have a ·proof [testimony; witness] about myself that is ·greater [weightier] than that of John. [L For] The ·things [L works] I do, which are the ·things [L works] my Father gave me to ·do [complete; finish; C the signs and miracles which point to his saving work on the cross], ·prove [testify; witness] that the Father sent me.
37 And the Father himself who sent me has given ·proof [testimony; witness] ·about me [concerning me; on my behalf]. You have never heard his voice or seen ·what he looks like [his form; his outward appearance].
38 His ·teaching [word; message] does not ·live [remain; abide] in you, because you don't believe in the One the Father sent.
39 You ·carefully study [search; examine] the Scriptures because you think they give you eternal life. They do in fact ·tell [testify; witness] ·about me [concerning me; on my behalf], 40 but you ·refuse [do not want] to come to me to have that life.
41 "I don't ·need [or accept; receive] ·praise [glory; honor] from people.
42 But I know you—I know that you don't have God's love in you.
43 I have come ·from my Father and speak for him [L in my Father's name], ·but [or and] you don't ·accept [receive] me. But when another person comes, ·speaking only for himself [L in his own name], you will ·accept [receive] him.
44 You try to ·get praise [receive glory/honor] from each other, but you do not try to ·get the praise [receive glory/honor] that comes from the only God. So how can you believe?
45 Don't think that I will ·stand before the Father and say you are wrong [L accuse you before the Father].
The one who ·says you are wrong [L accuses you] is Moses, the one ·you hoped would save you [L in whom you hoped].
46 [L For] If you really believed Moses, you would believe me, because Moses wrote about me [C in the Torah, the first five books of the OT; for example, Deut. 18:15 quoted in Acts 3:22]. 47 But if you don't believe what Moses wrote, how can you believe what I say?"
:iagree: :iagree:
You cannot find Jesus in scriptures (the old testament)
unless the Holy Spirit reveal Him.
When we read the new testament and Paul instructs ( any one Timothy)
To read and study scriptures, he telling them about the Old testament.
We know this by reading the new testament.
I believe the great awakening of Jews and their Muslim brothers
will be when the Holy Spirit reveals Jesus the Messiah through the Old testament.
Their scriptures
Perhaps. But perhaps it will occur when, "Every eye shall see Him, even those who pierced Him" :o)
Does it mean anything that it was the Romans who pierced him?
Either way the beauty of the Lord is visible for all to see for all eternity.
Quote from: dajomaco on November 11, 2014, 06:31:27 PM
It is always in Gods timing when he opens some one's eyes.
The only thing separating the all from being in the all is time.
Jesus conquered time, the Holy Spirit somehow made the cross the center of time.
The cross has affected the Garden(Past) and coming ages.
The cross will always have the same effect. No matter the time.
The eyes must be made to be open.
Ronny to Dajomaco:
Amen and it is God,who opens our eyes! :-) And it's God who decides the when,of when each persons eyes are opened. And oh,what a blessing it is,when God does just that, for a person! :-) And I was raised up in the local church,taught that God just did that eye opening,for a few people and at the best,God simply let the rest of humanity,go to hell. But then God showed me the truth,that what God did for even one,God will do for all! :-)
Quote from: Seth on November 11, 2014, 07:15:33 PM
:iagree:
On the other hand, you never know. You just never know. Remember where Apostle Paul came from. :dsunny:
Ronny to Seth:
You mean,Paul wasn't born a Christian?! :-) Seriously though, :-) it's hard for me to understand,how some Christians can read in the Bible,how Paul was saved and yet still hold on to the belief,that it's the lost person who must save themself,because God can't do that.
Quote from: eaglesway on November 11, 2014, 07:21:05 PM
Absolutely. All things are possible with God. :banana:
Ronny to Eaglesway:
And yet most Christians are taught to believe that,that isn't so. For the Arminian/free will side says,that God can save no one and that when a lost person is saved,it's because of something they've done. Done,out of their "free" will and not because God caused such. But,I can well understand why the Arminian/free will side,is so against the Calvinistic way of thinking and believing. And I would suppose,that for the longest of times,the only ways of believing,that most Christians knew of,was the Calvinist and the Arminian/free will side? And I can also see,why the Calvinist side,does not believe certain things,the Arminian/free will way. Both sides,looking at what's wrong,with the other sides way of thinking and believing and I think both sides,so seldom even knowing,that there is a third way of seeing things. That is,the UR way.
Quote
You cannot find Jesus in scriptures (the old testament)
unless the Holy Spirit reveal Him.
When we read the new testament and Paul instructs ( any one Timothy)
To read and study scriptures, he telling them about the Old testament.
We know this by reading the new testament.
I believe the great awakening of Jews and their Muslim brothers
will be when the Holy Spirit reveals Jesus the Messiah through the Old testament.
Their scriptures
Exactly , but the irony of the scriptures is that we are what ?
Coming out of the world to me , this is the part that many still read and looking to the world for Jesus to appear in , it will never happen this way the Scriptures still prove many are still under the age of the Law and prophets and the age to Come is the new and Living way and it is by grace and the sacrifice of Jesus Christ and the cross that was the end of the law for those whom believ He was sent and will come again
and How will He come to them ? , by the Spirit and truth , this is not expected ,
But the Father is seeking those to worship Him is Sprint and truth and these are being resurrected now and living though Christ , this is the age where the new and living way and the promises of God are being fulfilled bearing sons of God into Glory in the earth and without end
the warning is to know the trap of Babylon
Here we see two different women one is worldly still the other comes down from heaven and this is the time of the end when if it were possible the very elect would be deceived
John the one who was in the SPIRIT on the Lords Day saw these two and gave us the sign and distinction
Rev 17 1-4
and there came one of the 7 angels [messengers ] which had the 7 vials and talked with me !! saying to me
come here I will show you the judgment of the great whore that sits on many waters [many peoples tongues and nations ] what ? in the world and seeking the signs of the end times to me
with the kings of the earth have committed fornication and inhabitants of the earth have been made drunk with the wine of her fornication
drunk means riling make (water) turbulent or muddy and unclear and filthy and unclean and unholy they that are drunk are in the dark and night
fighting and For those who sleep do their sleeping at night, and those who get drunk get drunk ... and sleep is only for such who are in darkness, and are children of the night
and what do they do judge and make war with everyone and thing that does not agree with them
Now compare the Bride as the city in Rev 21 and there came to me one of the 7 angels [messengers ] which has the 7 viles full of the 7 last plagues and talked with me saying
Come here I will show you the Bride the Lambs wife
and He carried me away
in the SPIRIT to a great and High Mountain and showed me the great City the Holy Jerusalem
descending out of heaven from GOD Having the glory of God and Her Light was like unto a STONE MOST PRECIOUS[ JESUS CHRIST IS THE CHIEF CORNER STONE ] even like Jasper Stone clear as Crystal
now John also was carried away in the Spirit seeing the woman on the scarlet beast in Rev 17 and as we compare them we can see the difference here and the Woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet color and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication
and for me , these precious things are stolen belonging to God they are all whom were sent throughout the ages with warnings and were for her to repent of her evil doings but she never would
So the warning to any one is TO COME OUT OF HER MY PEOPLE unless you also receive her plagues , it is the worldly earth systems of religious ties that bind us to her and kills those under the law as she just gets bigger and more powerful , those thinking they are doing God a service by KILLING
and this can be taken as literal as well as spiritual in the new born babes in Christ .. Saul/ Paul is our primes example of those not knowing the law of sin and death and the Law of Christ is Life
and God bless Paul for expounding on the differences because his own experience gave us both ways of looking into it from one end of the spectrum to the other one ,,,
He was Judge and executioner to the new ones born of God and they died in faith and Jesus come to Saul / Paul in the Spirit and told him He was persecuting HIM !! Those new spiritual born's were of Jesus Christ own body !! and Saul / Paul was blinded by Jesus LIGHT and did come out of Babylon
Babylon was here from Gen 11 building Her earthly Kingdom and rule . the beast to me has always been the earthly and sensual and devilish wisdom and will worship of mankind
Fulfilling the prophecy that those whom see will be blinded and those whom are blind will see the truth = Jesus in Isaiah 32;3 John 9;39 John 12 ;40 and 2Corinth 4;4;
and as much as many cannot understand the Spiritual aspect of it , to me its about being Spiritual creatures in Christ and by the SPIRIT OF TRUTH will all these things come to pass by the WORD OF GOD /TRUTH .
and all will be partakers of this mighty work of God one way or the other
Amen Rose - brilliantly written! :dsunny:
all will be partakers of this mighty work of God one way or the other
:iagree:
Gods Spirit and blessings to all the brothers and sisters in Christ !!
He is saving us now
something that keeps coming to mind is the scriptures
to the pure all things are pure Titus 1 and I love that , isn't that awesome!! kathros purified by the fire!!blameless, innocent clean ,purified
- Blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall see God. Matthew 5: 8 God is that consuming fire
seeing in Matt 5 Jesus is telling us how to become pure and perfect in seeing God
and can only be done by Being in the Spirit and truth and that is Loving God first this obedience has reward
I know we cannot stay in this all the time , while being flesh and blood , but by the Spirit we get to taste it ! and it will do till we can be in this for good !
the pure know God is judging righteously I love it that Jesus said neither do I judge you He said you judge according to the flesh I judge no man , He knew God was looking for seeking those to worship Him in Spirit and truth and it is now just as much as it was than when written , His Law judges rightly and He is the one who set it in place , first in stone was not our hearts stony at first ? and now in flesh hearts of flesh Jesus flesh the glorified kind of flesh not all flesh is the same flesh !!
Titus 1 Expanded Bible (EXB)
1 From Paul, a ·servant [slave; bondservant] of God and an ·apostle [messenger] of Jesus Christ. I was sent ·to help [or in the service of; or to bring about] the faith of God's ·chosen people [elect] and to help them know the truth that ·shows people how to serve God [or leads to godliness/piety].
2 That faith and that knowledge ·come from [or lead to] the ·hope for [confidence/certainty of] ·life forever [eternal life], which God, who never lies, promised to us before ·time began [L eternal times].
3 At ·the right [the appointed; his own] time God ·let the world know about that life [L revealed/manifested his word/message] through preaching. He ·trusted [entrusted] me with that work by the command of God our Savior.
4 To Titus [2 Cor. 2:13; 7:6; 8:16; Gal. 2:1–3], my ·true [genuine] child in the faith we share:
Grace and peace from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Savior.
Titus' Work in Crete this word Crete has a powerful spiritual message and meaning to me , It was a Greek Island off the Mediterranean and a 1000 cities
surrounded by land all around it , is this not just like our own physical bodies ?
Dictionaries - Hitchcock's Bible Names Dictionary - Crete
Crete bible meanings
carnal; fleshly
5 I left you in Crete [C an island in the Mediterranean southeast of Greece] so you could ·finish doing [organize; straighten out] the things that still needed to be done and so you could appoint elders in every ·town [city], as I directed you.
6 An elder [1 Tim. 3:1–7] must ·not be guilty of doing wrong [be blameless], must ·have only one wife [or be faithful to his wife], and must have ·believing [or faithful] children. They must not be ·known as children who are [accused of being] ·wild [reckless] and ·do not cooperate [unruly; undisciplined; rebellious].
7 As God's ·managers [stewards], overseers [C probably the same church office as elder; 1 Tim. 3:1, 6, 7; 5:17] must be ·innocent of wrongdoing [blameless], ·unselfish [not arrogant/self-willed], not ·quick-tempered [easily angered]. They must not ·drink too much wine [be a drunkard], ·like to fight [be violent/a brawler], or ·try to get rich by cheating others [be greedy for gain/dishonest in business].
8 Overseers must be ·ready to welcome guests [hospitable], love what is good, be ·wise [self-controlled; sensible], ·live right [upright; just], and be ·holy [devout] and ·self-controlled [disciplined].
9 By holding ·on [firmly] to the ·trustworthy [faithful] ·word [message] just as it was taught to them, overseers can ·encourage [exhort] people with ·true [sound; healthy] teaching, and they can ·correct [reprove; refute] those who are against it.
10 There are many ·people who refuse to cooperate [unruly/rebellious people], who talk about ·worthless [empty; useless] things and ·lead others into the wrong way [deceive others]—·mainly [especially] those ·who insist on circumcision to be saved [or among the Jewish Christians; L of the circumcision].
11 These people must be ·stopped [L silenced], because they are ·upsetting [misleading; ruining; overthrowing] whole families by teaching things they should not teach, which they do ·to get rich by cheating people [for dishonest gain].
12 Even one of their own prophets said, "Cretans are always liars, evil ·animals [beasts], and lazy ·people who do nothing but eat [gluttons; C a quote from Epimenides, a poet from Crete (sixth century bc)]."
13 ·The words that prophet said are [L This testimony is] true. So ·firmly [severely; sharply] ·tell those people they are wrong [rebuke/admonish them] so they may become ·strong [sound; healthy] in the faith,
14 not ·accepting [paying attention to; wasting time with] Jewish ·false stories [myths; 1 Tim. 1:4; 4:7; 2 Tim. 4:4] and the commands of people who ·reject [turn their backs on] the truth.
15 To those who are pure, all things are pure, but to those who are ·full of sin [defiled; polluted (with sin)] and ·do not believe [unfaithful], nothing is pure.
Both their minds and their consciences have been ·ruined [defiled; polluted]. 16 They ·say [claim; confess] they know God, but their actions show they ·do not
accept [deny] him. They are ·hateful people [detestable; abominable], they refuse to obey, and they are ·useless [unfit; disqualified] for doing anything good.
I am amazed this rightly dividing the Word of truth to the worldly still and to the holy ones still to this day
Gods Word does not change , but it does change us !!
Salvation is what I look forward to, thank you Jesus :HeartThrob: :dsunny:
The word 'salvation' has many meanings, and it'd be foolish thinking that is always meand 'being rescued from hell'. It has a wider meaning in greek, exactly as in hebrew. In fact, many times we find this word in the Psalms, and it is most often related to someone's life. Generally, both in Greek and in Hebrew, we could say that if we should find a universal translation of the word, we should say that 'to save' means 'setting s.o. free from any problem'.
Quote from: Tom on November 11, 2014, 04:25:26 AM
I agree that we're inspired by holy spirit through the word of God, but I think inaccurate translations can make it harder to fully understand the meaning of things such as "Gehenna" vs. "hell." I think discovering that made a big difference in how I understood the whole story.
How true! I was grappling with accepting UR or not, and reading the Bible, with this new perspective, seeking confirmation.
At one point, the issue of Gehenna was posing an obstacle for me. Someone helped clarify it for me, and the pieces just seemed to fit, and I was then finally ready to accept UR.
So, this past Pentecost Sunday, I accepted UR. Didn't even realize it was Pentecost, at first, I was so happy about understanding Gehenna that morning.
D.
Quote from: WhiteWings on November 08, 2014, 10:21:03 AM
QuoteI am not sure I made the point very well
Very clear. :winkgrin:
You wrote about the scope of the word saved. But why that scope? Maybe the answer is found in the question what we should be saved from?
Did the Father sent His Son to save use from Himself (Father). Or as a cure?
It can be argued sin is not our natural state. It's an illness caused by eating the forbidden fruit that causes death. We are saved out of (not from) death.
When we take medication against the flu we are healed and 'saved from' curse of fever.
The whole mission of Jesus is providing a cure to the venom of the serpent.
BTW the scope of words can also be because of doctrine. Even if the word only means heal it must also mean save because church decided that He saves us from hell.
As strange as it may sound it reminded me of these verses:
Ps 139:13-15 (HRB2012)
13 For You have possessed my inward parts; You wove me in the womb of my mother.
14 I will thank You, for with fearful things I am wonderful; Your works are marvelous, and my soul knows it very well.
15 My bones were not hidden from You when I was made in secret; when I was woven in the depths of the earth.
Didn't Eve sin way before she and her husband ate the fruit? I was under the impression that eating the fruit just gave them the realization that they were in sin (naked and ashamed)
Jesus died to saved us from something that God himself put in us ( creation in vanity). Salvation is not a solution to a problem but more a process to our evolution, no?
Quote from: Aerex on September 22, 2015, 02:34:58 PMDidn't Eve sin way before she and her husband ate the fruit? I was under the impression that eating the fruit just gave them the realization that they were in sin (naked and ashamed)
Jesus died to saved us from something that God himself put in us ( creation in vanity). Salvation is not a solution to a problem but more a process to our evolution, no?
I believe James describes this very nicely:
(Jas 1:14,15) But each one is enticed when he is drawn away by his own desires and trapped [the desire comes from within Eve]. Then, when desire has conceived [She desires to eat from the tree], it gives birth to sin [She acts on that desire and eats from the tree]. And sin, when it has been accomplished, brings forth death [They realize they are naked, and feel shame].
I do agree that God (the cause of all) put this in Eve, and that it was all part of his bigger purpose, a process put into play, all arranged by the Creator himself, so do not see it as conflicting in any way with the sin sin coming as a result of acting on the desire. Acting so as to sin can also take place in the mind as well though, as Yeshua brought out concerning someone who desires another man's woman commits adultery with her in his heart, without the physical act even taking place.
Ronen
and here;
Matthew 1:20 But after he had considered this, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream and said, "Joseph son of David, do not be afraid to take Mary home as your wife, because what is conceived in her is from the Holy Spirit.
21 She will give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus, because he will save his people from their sins."
22 All this took place to fulfill what the Lord had said through the prophet:
23 "The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and they will call him Immanuel"--which means, "God with us."
Jesus is the solution that facilitates the evolution ;o)
1 Corinthians 6:11
Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.
2 Thessalonians 2:13
But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth.
1 Peter 2:2-3
like newborn babies, long for the pure milk of the word, so that by it you may grow in respect to salvation, if you have tasted the kindness of the Lord.