What is salvation?

[Shev]

I was wondering if anyone has any thoughts on the nature of salvation itself. This may sound like a blindingly obvious question, but to me it seems there are some nuances to it. Tradition has a line in the sand, and if you are saved, you are over the line, or to put it another way, you grabbed on to the life jacket. This element undoubtedly has some truth to it, but some of the uses of the Greek word for salvation (σωζω - sozo) are very interesting:

Matthew 9:21
ἔλεγεν γὰρ ἐν ἑαυτῇ· ἐὰν μόνον ἅψωμαι τοῦ ἱματίου αὐτοῦ σωθήσομαι.
(and she said in herself, "if I only touch his garment, I will be "saved")

John 11:12
εἶπαν οὖν οἱ μαθηταὶ αὐτῷ· κύριε, εἰ κεκοίμηται σωθήσεται.
(so his disciples said to him, "Lord, if he has fallen asleep, he will be "saved")

Obviously those words are translated as "healed" and "wake up" in English, but it shows the wider scope of the Greek word. So adding these thoughts to the straightforward English definition of "saved", to me it adds some depth and flavor to the concept. The end of our faith is the salvation of our souls, but our salvation is also referenced in the past tense too. Some of this may be down to differences between salvation of the spirit, soul and body, but there may also be a different perspective as far as the "snatched from the sea" concept, followed by the ongoing healing and waking up as we are conformed to the image of Christ.

I am not sure I made the point very well, but I would be interested to hear thoughts.

[WhiteWings]

I am not sure I made the point very well

Very clear. :winkgrin:



You wrote about the scope of the word saved. But why that scope? Maybe the answer is found in the question what we should be saved from?

Did the Father sent His Son to save use from Himself (Father). Or as a cure?
It can be argued sin is not our natural state. It's an illness caused by eating the forbidden fruit that causes death.  We are saved out of (not from) death.
When we take medication against the flu we are healed and 'saved from' curse of fever.
The whole mission of Jesus is providing a cure to the venom of the serpent.

BTW the scope of words can also be because of doctrine. Even if the word only means heal it must also mean save because church decided that He saves us from hell.






As strange as it may sound it reminded me of these verses:

Ps 139:13-15 (HRB2012)
13 For You have possessed my inward parts; You wove me in the womb of my mother.
14 I will thank You, for with fearful things I am wonderful; Your works are marvelous, and my soul knows it very well.
15 My bones were not hidden from You when I was made in secret; when I was woven in the depths of the earth.

[Tom]

I agree that we should specify salvation from what. I believe we believers are chosen from before the disruption of the world (Ephesians 1:4) to be saved from the coming indignation (Romans 5:9) for eonian life (Romans 6:23, Titus 3:7), but eventually all mankind will be saved from death at the consummation of the eons when God will be all in all (1 Corinthians 15:20-28). And most of us here on this site have been saved from the deception of torture in fire forever to believe the truth of scripture that all on earth and in the heavens will be reconciled to God through Christ's blood on the cross (Colossians 1:20). The good news is that God is the savior of all mankind (1 Timothy 4:10).

[rosered]

 

Great thoughts !!     :HeartThrob:  Michael , Tony and Tom ,

  Salvation , is saving something from    corrupting  and  ruin 

  I thought of   , Guys would understand    this ,   It is like     fixing up  an old car someone was wanting to restore  , give it  new life and purpose  , new parts    and some Tender loving care   TLC
To  put some work in it   and wait for  some    results    in the end of the restoration ,   to turn  something   from   unusable and     make it    the way you want  and just for you   and give it value .

 
I also like to compare   natural   things     to   spiritual  things to

  They have helped me understand parables   much better in the Word of God  too

   For me   salvation    is saving from ruin    and destruction and      uselessness


  Our    faith in God and  though His Son      makes  Hope   alive    and  becomes a reality      in our lives   now

   Jesus Christ WORD  and Holy Spirit    within you   fills a void and darkness and emptiness        that the whole world and its   desires     cannot ever fill

God gives life meaning and purpose and   everyone can benefit from   it , not just a few

His righteous works in the earth    made known   fill  us with newness of Life and     joy nothing can take this away from you no matter how  bad things can seem at times   ,  we can keep on going       without giving up
  we give up on the world and Give     our all to God because He first Loved us and  now we can can Love   Him and others   as He  so desires     ,

  to know you are loved and needed and  purposed in Gods desire for you    ,  He chose you out of the world      ,   Giving you His strength   and ability   to be able to master   Love with patience and kindness     and those fruits of the Spirit 
   we eat of in the Tree of Life   and able to share those things the thankful fruits of the lips        God is glorified   in the earth as it is in heaven       and its marvelous
to be partakers   of        HIS  plan   in the Day and Light of salvation  and finishing work in the earth      .

  Love is a many splendored      thing     noun
1.
brilliant or gorgeous appearance, coloring, etc.; magnificence:
the splendor of the palace.
2.
an instance or display of imposing pomp or grandeur:
the splendor of the coronation.
3.
grandeur; glory; brilliant distinction:
the splendor of ancient Greek architecture.
4.
great brightness; brilliant light or luster.

[Seth]

I was wondering if anyone has any thoughts on the nature of salvation itself. This may sound like a blindingly obvious question, but to me it seems there are some nuances to it. Tradition has a line in the sand, and if you are saved, you are over the line, or to put it another way, you grabbed on to the life jacket. This element undoubtedly has some truth to it, but some of the uses of the Greek word for salvation (σωζω - sozo) are very interesting:

Matthew 9:21
ἔλεγεν γὰρ ἐν ἑαυτῇ· ἐὰν μόνον ἅψωμαι τοῦ ἱματίου αὐτοῦ σωθήσομαι.
(and she said in herself, "if I only touch his garment, I will be "saved")

John 11:12
εἶπαν οὖν οἱ μαθηταὶ αὐτῷ· κύριε, εἰ κεκοίμηται σωθήσεται.
(so his disciples said to him, "Lord, if he has fallen asleep, he will be "saved")

Obviously those words are translated as "healed" and "wake up" in English, but it shows the wider scope of the Greek word. So adding these thoughts to the straightforward English definition of "saved", to me it adds some depth and flavor to the concept. The end of our faith is the salvation of our souls, but our salvation is also referenced in the past tense too. Some of this may be down to differences between salvation of the spirit, soul and body, but there may also be a different perspective as far as the "snatched from the sea" concept, followed by the ongoing healing and waking up as we are conformed to the image of Christ.

I am not sure I made the point very well, but I would be interested to hear thoughts.

Matthew 1:21
And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.

Jesus means "Jehovah saves" so the reason Jesus got his name is because his mission is to save from sin. I am glad you got that connection between salvation and healing. That's what the whole Gospel is about.  :thumbsup:

That us why Romans 5:10 says that we are saved by "his life" meaning the Spirit. The Spirit heals us from the carnal mind and walking by the Spirit saves us from the corruption of our generations. When it says that the the end of our faith is the salvation of our souls, I believe it means that the point of faith, the reason for having it is our healing, because by faith is how we receive "his life" by which we are saved.

[Seth]

BTW,  the word "from" in Matthew 1:21 is translated from "apo" meaning to be separated. It was used when someone would travel "from" (apo) one city to another. So, in essence it says "he shall save his people away from sin." Healing from sin is like being snatched away from the jaws of a ravenous beast.

[eaglesway]

The word, in Greek, is sozo, which is translated variously to saved, healed, delivered and can mean any or all at once of those depending on the context. Ultimately the entire creation will be delivered from corruption in the glorious liberty of the children of God, which is the broadest application of salvation, IMO- the restoration of all things within the ALL IN ALL of God :o)

The specific aspects of salvation could be a healing, a deliverance from a besetting sin, a revelation that builds you spirit and understanding.

We were saved by grace through faith. We are being saved by transformation. We will be saved by resurrection.

[dajomaco]

IMO

I think that when God created Adam, God had an eternal idea of the relationship.

Death (serpent) gave Adam a non-eternal idea of relationship with God.

Jesus saved us from relating to God in a non-eternal way, to our original
eternal relationship with God 

[Shev]

Great thoughts everyone, thanks.  :dsunny: I guess another way of phrasing the question would be, in the light of the Greek word "sozo", do you think we understand salvation in precisely the same way the Greek speaking church would have? I find that many Greek words really lose something in the translation.  I am not saying there is anything major we are missing - more shades and nuances, but I find in reading the New Testament in Greek, so many things have a different flavor than they do in English.

[Seth]

Great thoughts everyone, thanks.  :dsunny: I guess another way of phrasing the question would be, in the light of the Greek word "sozo", do you think we understand salvation in precisely the same way the Greek speaking church would have? I find that many Greek words really lose something in the translation.  I am not saying there is anything major we are missing - more shades and nuances, but I find in reading the New Testament in Greek, so many things have a different flavor than they do in English.

I guess it depends on how each modern, English speaker understands it. I believe the ETers view it as being salvaged from a future existence in hell. I believe it to be more in line with the scriptures you quoted, deliverance in the form of healing from an undesirable human condition.

Even the wrath to come, I believe is associated with that condition. For example when God sends strong delusion, people believe a lie. Then when they are sufficiently judged by that, they are saved from that condition, saved from sin. So I think the whole Gospel revolves around the Matthew 1:21 statement about being healed from sin.

[Shev]

Great thoughts everyone, thanks.  :dsunny: I guess another way of phrasing the question would be, in the light of the Greek word "sozo", do you think we understand salvation in precisely the same way the Greek speaking church would have? I find that many Greek words really lose something in the translation.  I am not saying there is anything major we are missing - more shades and nuances, but I find in reading the New Testament in Greek, so many things have a different flavor than they do in English.

I guess it depends on how each modern, English speaker understands it. I believe the ETers view it as being salvaged from a future existence in hell. I believe it to be more in line with the scriptures you quoted, deliverance in the form of healing from an undesirable human condition.

:thumbsup:

[Tom]

Great thoughts everyone, thanks.  :dsunny: I guess another way of phrasing the question would be, in the light of the Greek word "sozo", do you think we understand salvation in precisely the same way the Greek speaking church would have? I find that many Greek words really lose something in the translation.  I am not saying there is anything major we are missing - more shades and nuances, but I find in reading the New Testament in Greek, so many things have a different flavor than they do in English.

I think there's always the problem of something being lost in translation from one language to another, and some things can't even be translated because they are specific to the culture of a particular language. The crazy thing is though that, regardless of translation, a lot of folks think salvation is from torture in fire forever when that's not even in the ancient scriptures because the result of sin is death not the common misconception of hell.

[Shev]

Great thoughts everyone, thanks.  :dsunny: I guess another way of phrasing the question would be, in the light of the Greek word "sozo", do you think we understand salvation in precisely the same way the Greek speaking church would have? I find that many Greek words really lose something in the translation.  I am not saying there is anything major we are missing - more shades and nuances, but I find in reading the New Testament in Greek, so many things have a different flavor than they do in English.

I think there's always the problem of something being lost in translation from one language to another, and some things can't even be translated because they are specific to the culture of a particular language. The crazy thing is though that, regardless of translation, a lot of folks think salvation is from torture in fire forever when that's not even in the ancient scriptures because the result of sin is death not the common misconception of hell.

Amen Tom!

[jabcat]

I see it as entailing many things; healing, redeeming, crossing from unbelief to belief by having the Holy Spirit create a new man ("anyone in Christ..new creature") and taking up residence within.  Perhaps most simply, "Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God-" Jn. 1:12

Blessings.

[rosered]

I see it as entailing many things; healing, redeeming, crossing from unbelief to belief by having the Holy Spirit create a new man ("anyone in Christ..new creature") and taking up residence within.  Perhaps most simply, "Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God-" Jn. 1:12

Blessings.

     :thumbsup:  Yes He come to save men's lives not destroy  them !!

Luke 9   for the Son of Man did not come to destroy men's lives, but to save them

  Hebrews  9       26 Hebrews 9:26Expanded Bible (EXB)

26 ·Then [Otherwise; In such a case,] he would have had to suffer many times ·since the world was made [from the foundation/creation of the world]. But Christ ·came [appeared] ·only once and for all time [once for all; 7:27; 9:12, 26; 10:10] at the ·end [culmination; climax] of ·the present age [time; L the ages] to ·take away all [nullify; abolish] sin by sacrificing himself. :flowerred:

[eaglesway]

I personally think that the Holy Spirit transcends translation issues and gives the spiritual mind the spiritual meaning. I don't speak Greek but I am assured in my understanding of salvation because I have received it from the Spirit of God, through the illumination of the scriptures.

[Tom]

I agree that we're inspired by holy spirit through the word of God, but I think inaccurate translations can make it harder to fully understand the meaning of things such as "Gehenna" vs. "hell." I think discovering that made a big difference in how I understood the whole story.

[eaglesway]

 :iagree:

[WhiteWings]

I agree that we're inspired by holy spirit through the word of God, but I think inaccurate translations can make it harder to fully understand the meaning of things such as "Gehenna" vs. "hell." I think discovering that made a big difference in how I understood the whole story.

True.
Why would God take so much trouble to write/inspire perfect Scriptures, warn that nothing may be altered in any way and then we just brush it away with "Who cares? No problem. HS will explain!"

For me such views are exactly the same as:

Romans 6:15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under the law but under grace? By no means!

[eaglesway]

I agree that we're inspired by holy spirit through the word of God, but I think inaccurate translations can make it harder to fully understand the meaning of things such as "Gehenna" vs. "hell." I think discovering that made a big difference in how I understood the whole story.

What I was saying was that a person who easily overlooks the many verses on UR will not likely be persuaded by some debated word translations. At least thats what I've experienced..

[WhiteWings]

I agree that we're inspired by holy spirit through the word of God, but I think inaccurate translations can make it harder to fully understand the meaning of things such as "Gehenna" vs. "hell." I think discovering that made a big difference in how I understood the whole story.

What I was saying was that a person who easily overlooks the many verses on UR will not likely be persuaded by some debated word translations. At least thats what I've experienced..

There is no other choice. There is no way you can explain UR without pointing to some UR verses. That often will bring up the greatest verse of all.... Matthew 25:46
You will have to prove punishment isn't torture.
You have to prove everlasting isn't everlasting at all.
How are you going to do that without any Greek? It gets even more techy when you want to link aion to olam?
The problem with many verses is that they can't be understood (100%) correctly without knowing what the words in that verse (can) mean.

[dajomaco]

It is always in Gods timing when he opens some one's eyes.
The only thing separating the all from being in the all is time.

Jesus conquered time, the Holy Spirit somehow made the cross the center of time.
The cross has affected the Garden(Past) and coming ages.
The cross will always have the same effect. No matter the time.
The eyes must be made to be open.

[rosered]

I agree that we're inspired by holy spirit through the word of God, but I think inaccurate translations can make it harder to fully understand the meaning of things such as "Gehenna" vs. "hell." I think discovering that made a big difference in how I understood the whole story.

True.
Why would God take so much trouble to write/inspire perfect Scriptures, warn that nothing may be altered in any way and then we just brush it away with "Who cares? No problem. HS will explain!"

For me such views are exactly the same as:

Romans 6:15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under the law but under grace? By no means!

    we are under   bondage of sin  but   the old man of sin is  going to be eliminated   and the new creature in Christ is also   within the walls of salvation  in our clay bodies   , both are dealt with      in different ways and days   but there is only  3 days   and nights
  one age /day  Adam to Moses   death reigns= sin =  darkness

2 age /day    Moses & law     law reigns =    day and night = sin   exposed  waiting on Christ

3  age/ Day / JESUS Christ  reigns = DAY    =sin covered by grace and Life is given

grace is about   forgiving   sin which =death and new life merges    from death

   the 3rd Day is the Tree  with the seed in itself in Gen 1: 11
in  3 Days I will raise  His Kingdom up         He is being Lifted up  , even though man cannot see it
  its invisible to the natural eye
  but the spiritual eyes knows it




   

[Seth]

I agree that we're inspired by holy spirit through the word of God, but I think inaccurate translations can make it harder to fully understand the meaning of things such as "Gehenna" vs. "hell." I think discovering that made a big difference in how I understood the whole story.

What I was saying was that a person who easily overlooks the many verses on UR will not likely be persuaded by some debated word translations. At least thats what I've experienced..

I agree in the sense that if people "overlook" any scripture, they pretty much have no use for scripture in the first place. But there are some people who see a scripture, but are not able to resolve a seeming conflict with other scripture because they do not understand the definitions of some words. I have had more than a few people contact me from my website and tell me that understanding the definitions of these words has made universal salvation something they could finally embrace.

They wanted to believe it, but they couldn't because they were unable to resolve the problems. Defining the terms can help resolve the problems people see, when they cannot accept universal salvation based on 1 Timothy 4:10

[eaglesway]

Exactly. They wanted to believe it and needed some wrinkles ironed out, which is what I said earlier.

A guy like Matt Slick isnt going to repsond like that. :laugh: