Spirit and?

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: It's going on NOW. The souls of men are being made perfect/complete by being joined unto Christ the Lord. This is why we are seated in heavenly places. Heaven is not a destination, it's a state of being IN Christ.

John was in the Spirit (in Christ) on the Lord's day (7th day, His rest) IN the temple, whose temple we are. When Jesus walked on the water, He was walking above the waters below the firmament, ie. walking in "heaven", the firmament is called heaven. Note He told Peter to do the same, and he did.

When He spoke to Nicodemus, He basically said, I'm standing right here talking to you, but I'm in heaven.

Our conversation is to be from heaven. You can't have a conversation from a place you've never been! Being baptised in the Spirit, which is Christ, "places" part of us, in "heaven", and we speak out of that "place" things that are not lawful (or of the letter of the law) for men to speak. We speak what we have "seen", ie. perceived thru the mind of Christ that we received on the day of Pentecost.

The fire that came/comes, is the same as the fire destroying the old temple, not allowing one stone to stand upon another. It begins to take down all the man-made religious stones built by the works of flesh, in our hearts. Blessings...

[Beloved Servant]

Quick!
Someone help me hold Card's arms in the air!

[thinktank]

Ah I see I think we differ on the timings. I think that what you said is true, but in terms of the context of the message where those souls are slain I belive it is talking about those who are killed by the beast, and I'm trying to figure out how is it that these living souls get resurected, before the trumpet is blown and my best conclusion is that once they are killed, they are then resurected to heaven, and are given a rest for their sacrifice. That the trumpet represents the major harvest but these souls who are matyred are given a special resurection, representing a smaller harvest before the big one.

God bless

[WhiteWings]

Quick!
Someone help me hold Card's arms in the air!

:banana:

[WhiteWings]

Ah I see I think we differ on the timings. I think that what you said is true, but in terms of the context of the message where those souls are slain I belive it is talking about those who are killed by the beast, and I'm trying to figure out how is it that these living souls get resurected, before the trumpet is blown and my best

But they where told to rest/sleep/be dead a little more.

[thinktank]

Quick!
Someone help me hold Card's arms in the air!

:banana:

Why does she have a rod in her hands  :laughing7:

Holy Moses

[thinktank]

Ah I see I think we differ on the timings. I think that what you said is true, but in terms of the context of the message where those souls are slain I belive it is talking about those who are killed by the beast, and I'm trying to figure out how is it that these living souls get resurected, before the trumpet is blown and my best

But they where told to rest/sleep/be dead a little more.

Hmm good point, that's why I thought there maybe was a mistranslation, that it should read "spirits", instead of "souls".

[micah7:9]

Micah, to simplify things for you, the Jews believe that we have an animal soul and a human soul. :icon_jokercolor:


Good night  :lazy: :snor:

Okay so you are saying that if the Jews say that there is a soul for animals and humans, then it is so? Thats it? Do they have any scriptures to show this is valid?
Sorry If I woke you, was not my intent.
Peace and Love Through Jesus.

[WhiteWings]

I'm awake again.... 8:25

there is a soul for animals and humans

Not exactly. (if I understand you correctly)
They believe humans and animals have exactly the same soul. But humans have an extra soul.

The Struggle Between Our Two Souls
We are composed of not one, but two souls, the animal soul which animates the body and is focused on the desires and pleasures of the body, and the Godly soul, which yearns continually for Godliness.
The mind is a neutral ground between the animal soul and the Godly soul which are constantly battling to take control of it. If the Godly soul controls the mind and eradicates the animal soul, then the person is a tzaddik, a completely righteous person. If the animal soul takes possession and subdues the Godly soul, then the person is a rasha, a person who is driven by self-centered and egotistical drives.

A benoni is the intermediate man, a human being who is controlled by the Godly soul, yet is constantly challenged in a running battle with the darker side of his character, the animal soul. Not everyone can be a tzaddik, but every person can and should try to become a benoni. Rabbi Schneur Zalman of Liadi,teaches us that the level of the Benoni, the intermediate man is an extremely high level of refinement, and in his holy book, the Tanya, he teaches us how we can attain this level.

There is more in Gen 1 and 2 but haven't found it yet.

http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/924915/jewish/Evil-Inclination-vs-Animal-Soul.htm
http://www.inner.org/nonjews/kabbalah-for-nations-mystical-symbolism-noahide-laws-1.php

[Molly]

Two souls--that's not Biblical...

[WhiteWings]

Num. 15:30" "ti-karet ha-nefesh" - "that person (animal soul) will surely be cut off". The use of the term "nefesh" (animal soul) instead of the higher order soul (neshamah) indicates that which is closest to the physical body and its drives - it means kill the body and the soul will be cut off in heaven as well.
Read more: http://www.prodeathpenalty.com/Judaism.htm
Hummm? http://www.kheper.net/topics/bardo/kabbalah.html Not sure this one is mainstream...
http://rabbidavidcooper.com/five-dimensions-of-the-soul-in-five-worlds.html

http://www.usajewish.com/jewish-civilization/DO_WE_HAVE_SOULS.asp
'They called the soul by five names. Nefesh, Ruach, Neshama, Yechida, Chaya. Nefesh is blood... Ruach is the spirit that rises and descends...Neshama is the personality of a person... Chaya, even if all the limbs are dead, it still survives in the body... Yechida, all limbs are in pairs but this one it remains unique.'
.....
There are three main words used in the Torah for what we call 'soul'. The first is 'ruach', spirit, which appears initially as another word to describe the presence of God 'And the spirit of YHVH was hovering over the deep'.
.....
The second word for 'soul' is ' nefesh', as in ' 'And YHVH said Let the earth produce all kinds of living souls, animals, reptiles and beasts, and it was so ' . And when forbidding the Israelites to drink blood, the Torah says ' For the life of a person ( nefesh ) is in the blood ' . Nefesh is the word used almost interchangeably with 'adam' , a person, to describe a human who comes to bring a sacrifice in the book of Leviticus . Significantly, when the Torah institutes the law of fasting on Yom Kippur, the term it uses is ' Afflicting your souls' using the word nefesh .
.....
The third word for 'soul' and the one that in the Torah ( but not in rabbinic literature ) is only used of humans, is the word ' neshama'. 'And YHVH Elohim said formed man from the dust of the ground and He breathed into his nostrils the breath ( soul ) of life.' But this breath of life does not mean that it is automatically 'good'. And so later on in the Torah, when talking about Cannanite tribes that have to be destroyed because of their corruption and the threat they present to the newcomers, the word 'neshama' is used simply to mean all living humans. 'Do not let any breathing being ( neshama ) live.'

The Torah also uses the words ' neshama' and 'ruach' together describing the destruction of life by the flood, ' Everything that had the breath of the spirit of life ( nishmat ruach ) in its nostrils that was on dry land, died ' . So the distinction between the way the two words are used is blurred and ambiguous as to whether it applies to all life or only human life.

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Well, there is something to it, because I've read that the prohitition on eating blood was because of the life being in the blood, in the sense that the attributes of that animal nature will become part of you. The attributes are the the soul of it, spiritually.

It ties in with the woman/soul/heart with the issue of blood. We all have that issue of blood because it's what comes out of a man's mouth that defiles him, and out of the abundance of the heart, the mouth speaks.

Thanks for the links, will check them out later.....Blessings...

[Molly]

The Talmud states: "...those who are kind to cruel will one day be cruel to the kind...". This supports the concern for paroling, escaping or commuting prisoner sentences and its affect on society. Society is brutalized by the maintenance and release of such criminals, not their execution. The Talmud and its hundreds of rules for interpretation, printed in 499 CE, compiled over a period of hundreds of years before due to the fear of dispersion of the Jews, is the basic tool for all Jewish Law education. It is not well known or appreciated outside of Orthodox Jewish circles - but is definitive in such matters.

To me, this shows how they can be so completely without mercy and why they love their volumes and volumes of rules, regulations, and laws.

4For they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers.
--Mat 23

Again, this Kabbalistic conception of several souls, each of which has its own specific fate after death, likewise finds connection with the Egyptian understanding.  The Nefesh which "remains...in the grave, brooding over the body" can be compared with the Ka which remains in the tomb; and the Ruah ascending to the "terrestrial paradise" finds similarity with the Ba which likewise ascends to the paradisical regions, but is not yet totally free of the trials of this world.

That about sums it up--the kabbalists are getting their information from Babylon and Egypt.  I feel these ideas form what the Bible calls the mystery of iniquity.  If you are able to see a human as equivalent to an animal, then it is not long before human life becomes very cheap.  And, it's an easy step to say, We are the higher souls--They are the animals.  Man's pride would almost demand it under such a system.

Don't forget, it is not the animals who are made in God's image and likeness--it is man.



26And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

27So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

--Gen 1

Both schemes are extremely useful; but the first mentioned is spiritual-mystical, like the comparable maps of stages of the development of consciousness in Tantra, Sufism, and Christian Mysticism, whereas the latter is more psychological, like the Freudian distinction of Id and Ego It has even been suggested that Freud got some of his ideas from Kabbalah, although I would see any similarity as coming from  the "Kabbalistic" psychology being already ingrained in the popular Jewish mind, and thus be uncon-sciously transcribed, rather than direct and conscious borrowing.

This Freudian idea of an Id which follows purely animal instinct would naturally lend itself to a control of man by stressing constantly sex without love,  war without honor, and family without loyalty.   Sound familiar?  Welcome to the created nightmare of modern society--created in the backrooms of thinktanks--for death, destruction, and control of the many by the few.

Sorry, but this angers me because of its callous disregard and dismissal of the sanctity of human life--which disregard is taught as reality until it becomes reality. :sigh:

[WhiteWings]

That about sums it up--the kabbalists are getting their information from Babylon and Egypt.  I feel these ideas form what the Bible calls the mystery of iniquity.

And where you think Constantinanity Christianity got their idea's?

[WhiteWings]

Quick!
Someone help me hold Card's arms in the air!

:banana:

Why does she have a rod in her hands  :laughing7:

(http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:6UsIZ9fkKEwflM:http://img2.photographersdirect.com/img/91/wm/pd2463425.jpg)(//)

[Molly]

That about sums it up--the kabbalists are getting their information from Babylon and Egypt.  I feel these ideas form what the Bible calls the mystery of iniquity.

And where you think Constantinanity Christianity got their idea's?

From the New Testament.

[WhiteWings]

That about sums it up--the kabbalists are getting their information from Babylon and Egypt.  I feel these ideas form what the Bible calls the mystery of iniquity.

And where you think Constantinanity Christianity got their idea's?

From the New Testament.

And the interpretation of the NT isn't influenced by external factors?

[Molly]

That about sums it up--the kabbalists are getting their information from Babylon and Egypt.  I feel these ideas form what the Bible calls the mystery of iniquity.

And where you think Constantinanity Christianity got their idea's?

From the New Testament.

And the interpretation of the NT isn't influenced by external factors?

It should be influenced by the Holy Spirit.

[WhiteWings]

should...

[micah7:9]

WW And where you think Constantinanity Christianity got their idea's?  From fables and stories it would seem if you look at it today.

WW And the interpretation of the NT isn't influenced by external factors?  No. I believe the imagination of mens minds overflow into too many religious books.

MOLLY! It should be influenced by the Holy Spirit...Now Glory, that IS the answer.

MOLLY! That about sums it up--the kabbalists are getting their information from Babylon and Egypt. I feel these ideas form what the Bible calls the mystery of iniquity. If you are able to see a human as equivalent to an animal, then it is not long before human life becomes very cheap. And, it's an easy step to say, We are the higher souls--They are the animals. Man's pride would almost demand it under such a system.
Don't forget, it is not the animals who are made in God's image and likeness--it is man.

And  I for one believe that christianity is still getting it from that source! Not every religious info web site should be taken as an absolute to build from.
The Adversary is very much about.        Peace and Love Through Jesus
My  :2c:

[WhiteWings]

WW And where you think Constantinanity Christianity got their idea's?  From fables and stories it would seem if you look at it today.

Constatine just merged/forced his Roman gods/idea's (hell) with Christianity. Put statues of Roman/Greek gods in RCC and called them apostles.

WW And the interpretation of the NT isn't influenced by external factors?  No. I believe the imagination of mens minds overflow into too many religious books.

So the interpretation of the NT is influenced by imagination. And that imagination often is rooted in paganism.

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: I'm not sure who you're replying to Molly, but I don't think what I'm saying should cause offense. Spiritually speaking, His Spirit is in all creation, He lowered Himself into this bondage of corruption.

The life that causes the seed to grow, comes from Him. That that life would express itself as a lesser form as a soul, is no different than the principle of woman/soul being the lesser glory. All of creation is the lesser glory, it's all the WATERS below the firmament, and the firmament is Christ.

So animals having a soul, as an expression of the lesser glory of the carnal beastly natures that Adam named thru his soulish nature, is to me, what they were seeing, but not understanding as the "two" souls.

The redeemed soul that they caught a glimpse of thru the darkened glass, was the one that has had the work of Christ completed in it. I personally think they thought they saw "2", because they had no explanation for the change, since they didn't know Christ. The law had a form of godliness, and a lesser glory, also, and so possible for them to perceive some glory. There were some very spiritual Jews.

All babies are female until a certain point in their development inside the womb. Spiritually speaking, the flesh is all female, because the Spirit plants the seed.

I haven't studied Kabbalah, and don't intend to, but a FB Jewish friend just sent me a link to some studies last week, and I read the pages, and was surprised when the Lord quickened a couple of things to me, principles I had seen but had not connected. So like all the trees (men are trees) of the garden we were told we eat from, thru the mind of Christ, what is clean is eaten. My  :2c: Blessings....

[micah7:9]

Quote
WW And the interpretation of the NT isn't influenced by external factors?  No. I believe the imagination of mens minds overflow into too many religious books.
So the interpretation of the NT is influenced by imagination. And that imagination often is rooted in paganism.

No, not at all. But the imagination of men certainly take the NT and expand what it says to work for their benift in the present day. ALL imagination is birthed in paganism.
I believe that if you are not grounded in the faith of sound doctrine in this world or age of the internet, just as the TV evangelists created many schisms, so the internet will sway all that many more just out of the sheer personal emotion and its flood of finger tip information.

Peace and Love Through Jesus

[micah7:9]

I will do my best to really read Gen. 1&2 to find where there are "two souls." Still.... no mattter how I read Gen 2:7

(ASV)  And Jehovah God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

(KJV)  And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

(YLT)  And Jehovah God formeth the man--dust from the ground, and breatheth into his nostrils breath of life, and the man becometh a living creature.

Man was NOT given a SOUL, man BECAME a living soul. And it does not read that fish, sea monsters, fowl, were given souls... they were just living creatures(souls.) And formed Gen. 2:19   :2c:

[WhiteWings]

^KJVGen 1:24 And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so.

5315 vp,n< nephesh {neh'-fesh}
Meaning:  1) soul, self, life, creature, person, appetite, mind, living being, desire, emotion, passion 1a) that which breathes, the breathing substance or being, soul, the inner being of man 1b) living being 1c) living being (with life in the blood) 1d) the man himself, self, person or individual 1e) seat of the appetites 1f) seat of emotions and passions 1g) activity of mind 1g1) dubious 1h) activity of the will 1h1) dubious 1i) activity of the character 1i1) dubious
^KJVGen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

5397 hm'v'n> neshamah {nesh-aw-maw'}
Meaning:  1) breath, spirit 1a) breath (of God) 1b) breath (of man) 1c) every breathing thing 1d) spirit (of man)

^KJVGen 1:2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

7307 x;Wr ruwach {roo'-akh}
Meaning:  1) wind, breath, mind, spirit 1a) breath 1b) wind 1b1) of heaven 1b2) quarter (of wind), side 1b3) breath of air 1b4) air, gas 1b5) vain, empty thing 1c) spirit (as that which breathes quickly in animation or agitation) 1c1) spirit, animation, vivacity, vigour 1c2) courage 1c3) temper, anger 1c4) impatience, patience 1c5) spirit, disposition (as troubled, bitter, discontented) 1c6) disposition (of various kinds), unaccountable or uncontrollable impulse 1c7) prophetic spirit 1d) spirit (of the living, breathing being in man and animals) 1d1) as gift, preserved by God, God's spirit, departing at death, disembodied being 1e) spirit (as seat of emotion) 1e1) desire 1e2) sorrow, trouble 1f) spirit 1f1) as seat or organ of mental acts 1f2) rarely of the will 1f3) as seat especially of moral character 1g) spirit of God 1g1) as inspiring ecstatic state of prophecy 1g2) as impelling prophet to utter instruction or warning 1g3) imparting warlike energy and executive and administrative power 1g4) as endowing men with various gifts 1g5) as energy of life 1g6) ancient angel and later Shekinah

They call soul what Strong calls spirit...?